The Transformation of the Punjabi Man: Pashtunization or Militarization?

Re: # 45
non-Punjabi (To some even a non-Paky), and that too to replace a duly elected Punjabi PM.

Shaukat Aziz is actually from Punjab - his wife although a Urdu Speaking Woman from Bihar.

One poster says that Punjabis did not know whether ZAB was Bhutto or Bhutta.
A Malaysian friend told me once that the word bhutto in Malay language meant a male reproductive organ, and it was always a problem for everyone in the media and the govt to pronounce ZAB's name. They decided to call him Alibatto to spare everybody embarrassment.
If bibi becomes the PM, one does not know how the Maysians will tackle it, for there is no Ali in her name.

#44 Posted by HP

Interesting comments HP. However:

The minute he got in to power, Punjabi forgot about him. He was murdered by the army and Punjabis kay kaan say joon bhi na rayngi.

If that had been the case, his daughter wouldn't have chosen to land in Lahore on return from exile in 1988, instead of her native province, and got a historic reception!

On a side question, is it correct that MQM is now prepared to welcome with open arms the same BB and the same Naseerullah Babar whom they accuse of murdering dunno how many MQM members in 'operations'? No May 12 for them on 18 October?

IB #48 There are no doubt legitimate issues of the kind you describe. However, that does not mean that one should demonize or berate another community of people the way you were doing.

On the issues you mention, I agree with some and disagree with others. But when an organization resorts to violence the way mqm has done time and again, then it is a criminal organization and no longer a political party. Nor is mqm doing mohajirs any favors by creating divisions on the basis of ethnicity.

You have expressed concerns about mohajirs being overwhelmed by the panjabis. To a large extent I think your fears are unjustified, and I say this based on the following reasons:

1. As a minority community, mohajirs have the advantage of not being seen as a threat (perhaps an irritant, but not a threat) by the rest of Pakistan. As such, there are no strong feelings against them. Thus, even at times of the worst mqm violence in karachi in the past, there was never any reverse violence against mohajirs in the panjab or any other part of Pakistan. Indeed, I know mohajirs who themselves moved out of Karachi and came to live in Rawalpindi/Islamabad to escape the Karachi violence.

2. If panjabis were as ethnically conscious as so many mohajirs seem to be, why would they allow a mohajir - musharraf - to rise through the ranks to become not just a colonel or brigadier or general, but to actually support his takeover of the government!

3. The quota system that results in the kind of low induction into government service of mohajirs affects panjabis as adversely as it does mohajirs. (I say this from personal experience). If I had my way, I would call for its removal since it is a self-defeating system. So, I agree with you here, but again - this is a political issue and not a reason to berate some ethnic group or the other. Furthermore, government jobs are becoming less and less important relative to the private sector as the economy progresses, so I assume this will become less and less of a problem in future.

4. The panjab is not a monolithic group as you seem to think. "Panjabi" simply means someone living in the land of the five rivers. So, you too can be a panjabi - all you have to do is learn the bhangra. (just joking here). Traditionally panjabis identified themselves with their tribe, and in urban areas all these barriers break down - there are intermarriages across tribal lines in cities, and I have seen couples from across all ethnic lines among the urban people in Pakistan. So, the future is not as threatening as you may think, given the assimilation among the well off urban population.

So, look to the future of Pakistan, and a violence-prone, dictator-loving, divisive group like mqm has no place in it. The issue facing Pakistan today is the restoration of democracy - and mqm has betrayed the rest of Pakistan with its support for dictatorship based on its narrow-minded ethnic view of things. During these critical times, mohajirs should stand by the rest of Pakistan in their just struggle for the restoration of the rule of law, not with this group of losers.

#52 Posted by tahmed32,

I think there's a reason for BB deciding to land in Karachi instead of Lahore. It is MQM. It is only in Sind that BB can hope to form even a coalition government this time around. So the two of a kind are in bed.

LOL

its all about hegemony and control.
This fear is pumped up,although its a historical fact, that at one time, upto 70% GovtJobs were taken by the Imported Beaururacy from the minority provinces...although they hardly had a 3% population in the then undivided Pakistan.

..time changes so does, everything, the sheer volume of Punjabi population, or for that matter any other ethniities
population , has bound to have its effects.

the traditional occupation of Mohajir Man , is the Govt Service, the changed enviroment, with other ethnicities also getting the required Governance skills, is cutting deep into Mohajir Man's psyche, hence the sense of victimization and prosecution., and every One to hims appears as his enemy, conspiring against him.
what he fails to realize , its a historicall process, and can only be delayed not stopped.

#54
"the traditional occupation of Mohajir Man , is the Govt Service"

Looking at the distribution among my cousins, there are a number of doctors, MBA's, school teachers, CA's, travel agents, engineers and computer/IT professionals.

Not a single govt servant among 50 or so odd lot.

But, then, such reasoning is not your fault ...

Zee this isnt the first BB MQM colition and its not too surprising at all....remember we talked about may 12 th and how the PPP didnt raise a stink about their dead workers??
It would be nice for karachi and sindudesh to have a symbiotic relationship...however both BB and MQM are oppurtunists first and anything else second. Certainly they have limited interest in each others vote base. So this truce will likely last as long as the first and expect firweorks when the honeymoon is over.

Abu, I can make a counter claim that it is better that how Arabs treat their women. There's no equivalent of honor killing in India. Moreover Afghani, by their own admission are not Indians, they are Jew or something so you can't blame it all on bad Hindu blood.

Here are the bad treatments mated out in India
Satti - burning woman alive on her husbands pyre. (predominantly local to Rajasthan area)
Vidhwa - shunning widows from worldly pleasures after husband’s death (this is across the country, AFIK).
Female Feticide - killing of female embryos. This is new one. (predominantly local to Punjab area)
Dowry killing - Torturing and/or killing women on dowry related issues. This is also relatively new. In some old cultures groom gave dowry to brides parents for their daughter's hand. (this is across the country)

Here are some of the reforms that I know,
Pre Independence
Encouragement to women education
Encouragement to women self sufficiency and women rights
Ban on Satti - this was done by British. It's a crime now. You can probably count the number of sati cases in last few decades on your fingers.
Post Independence
Increase the marriageable age of women
Make dowry illegal. Increase awareness about ills of dowry (This is done bu social reformers more than Govt.)
Better treatment to widows. There's marked improvement over treatment to vidhwa over the years; even in small villages. I should know that for I grew up in small villages.
female feticide is still an issue and needs to be worked on vigorously.

Here are the bad treatments mated out in Arab lands
Second class citizens - Cover themselves head to toe. Her evidence is considered half as important as that of man. Women can't study, can't work, can't see a male doctor without presence of male relative, can't drive. If woman is raped she needs four momins to give evidence for her. Socio-religious sanction to the practice of beating women to keep them in check.
Honor killing - women are killed of conceived crimes of adultery. No judge no jury just a bunch of her relatives can just shoot her. No questions asked.

And your following statement implies your non native background,

"uss mein bohat baRA haath uss saqafti asar ka hayy joo hamnayy 500 saal hindoon kayy saath rehnay say qubool kiya. Hamari aurat too 1500 saal pehlay jayidad ki haqdaar thi, vote daynay ki haqdaarr thii, or leadership ki dawaydarr thii..."

Is that true?

abu is right about the spirit of islam which did revolutionize inheritence and divorce and political/economic leadership of women.
However abu bhai you can not blame hindus for the actions of muslims who use religion and culture as a tool to oppress women.
Hinduism does not have to be misogynist any more than islam, again its the interpretation of misogynists that make it so.

#55

Then shy the hue and cry for Grade 17 Govt Job...??

see post 48...!!


But Like I said, times are changing, and some transitions are induced by historical forces...!!

Absolutely pretentious nonsense that hides the reality of Islam by absolving the cult of hatred towards kafirs and idolators like me and couching it in terms of some ethnicity.

I am in Indian Punjab and I do not see any of the nonsense analyses applying here.

The truth is that it all comes from Islamic hatred towards idolators like me.

The real agenda of Islam is in the elimination of idolators like me and decimation of the idolator's civilization and replacement with that mafia cult code called Shariah.

Pakistan follows this to the core and some so called intellectually sounding 'enlightened moderate' analysts try to put on a veil of obfuscation to confuse rest of the world.

#60

Why the hue and cry for govt jobs?

Because they are entitled to their share of it like any other Pakistanis.

Plus, they can even type, which is more than what you can do.

We also want a fair share of opportunities in every sphere for all Pakistanis, not just for Punjabis.

Why do the Sindhis and Balochis not have enought representation in the armed forces of Pakistan? Does the race of 93000, who raised their hands and surrendered, fight better than the other Pakistanis?

entitled to their share....Right...??

and how much is that...??

3% , 7.5% or 70%.

or are you still nitpicking on typos....!!

Having gone through the variety of opinions, I must agree with cliftonbridge. She has correctly placed the emphasis on the ONE issue that plagues Pakistan's progress. The treatment meted out to our women is shameful, regressive, insidious, harmful, self-defeating, and most importantly WRONG.
One reason why Mohajirs seem to be relatively more advanced than the natives is that our women are slightly better educated and slightly better treated than their Balochi, Punjabi, Pathan, Sindhi, and Kashmiri counterparts.
All the stereotyping about the behavior of men in the six regions of Pakistan (Balochistan, NWFP, Kashmir, Punjab, Sindh, and Karachi) leads to one common trait - the worse the treatment of their women, the lower the standard and quality of life for both men and women. Good job, Cliftonbridge.