India: The Empire Strikes Back

It is so interesting to have a read that Mukesh Ambani's networth is more than twice the fiscal budget of Pakistan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Pakistan

For Mukesh Ambani's networth, just google, internet is full of results.

A few such individuals can truly run national budgets of other states in south asia...truly amazing!!

jayp: does a scientist discuss anything with a mental patient other than to help the latter get well? of course not.

should i discuss anything with a self-proclaimed "paki basher" like you beyond recommending he get mental help? of course not. so, dont write "serious posts" to me.

Santani: "muhajirs" in pakistan include Edhi and a lot of other fine people, not just mqm and their supporters. So, dont just switch from "paki-bashing" to "muhajir-bashing" assuming I will join you in this crap.

Dont they teach you indian boys anything beyond bashing one damn community or another?

Re: # 95

Masadi please refer to Chacha as Sir when you abuse him. As in Sir Slave of West etc.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

tahmed 89,

Thanks tahmad, now I can better understand you and you do not abuse any one on chowk, where the word abuse is a punjabi word.

Pathetic you are. Some honesty, well that cannot be a pakistani idea, because if all that one can do is to be obedient to the book, then there is no concept of individuality and hence honesty.

Then agian what is abuse for a pakistani, there can be nothing other than blasphemy which is the only crime against teh state.

tahmed, you are a well and truly k for kafir educated pakistani punjabi

Uh-oh..the kuldip nayyar clones won't be happy..

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/23/business/AS-FIN-COM-India-N okia.php

Nokia plans to make India its global export hub

NEW DELHI: Nokia Corp. Thursday said it plans to make its manufacturing plant in India, now the second-largest market for its handsets, a global hub for exports.

"We are exporting to 58 countries from the India plant and we are looking at this (unit) as a global plant for global operations," President and Chief Executive Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo told reporters.

Nokia, which set up a phone making plant near the southern city of Chennai in 2006, has already made 60 million handsets in 18 months, Kallasvuo said.

The world's largest handset maker by volume also said India has already over taken the United States to emerge as the largest market for Nokia handsets, after China, he said citing data for the first half of the year.

"Out of 185 million mobile phone users in India, 85 million use Nokia phones," said D. Shivkumar, managing director at Nokia's India unit said.

India's mobile market is one of the fastest growing in the world, fueled by low tariffs and rising middle-class incomes.

For the record, please note that there are many Punjabis who don't abuse - a few of them even visit Chowk. :)

{"Long live Masadi Sahib. "}

Masadi Sahib,
That was NOT a typo. I was merely agreeing with Madani Sahib for supporting you - ever since Lal Masjid, I have a better appreciation for your viewpoint. :)

Madani sahib, thanks for your continual support, May Allah bless you with ever increasing knowledge...

#88 Madani Sahib,
I have never read any abuse that can be attributed to you, kind Sir. I have always found you to be polite yet very direct, blunt, and sometimes brutally honest. You have a unique way of circumventing bullshit and laying the blame squarely where it belongs. I honestly look up to your sense of what is right and what is wrong. Please do continue to post in your inimitable style. More power to you and don't ever let rejection by the opposition affect your views. Long live Masadi Sahib.

...it was a movement for 'the rights of muslims...


The rights of "muslims" are with respect to Quran and Hadiths only......"muslimness" is always with respect to Quran and Hadith-- it is essentially a religious identity-- to deny that is only taquiyya.

tahmed32 not good enuf.....you have to abuse in the choicest of Panjabi adjectives tracing their ancestry in somewhat incestous terms and establishing conjugal relations netween them and their family and relatives with no discrimination to sex

you poonjabi or what?

oye Sanatani bhayryaa: oye ^%*&*^!! TooN panjabi fraternity toN maenoo kadan ayaaN??!! oye *&(&&dya maiN taynooN fraternity toN kad kay madani bhayya di &***& tay soot maraaaN ga, oye!!!

:-)

Oye Tahmadiya,

Teri Pan**, Maaa***,teeh** nu &*&^%%*&(+|.

If u do not abuse you are not Punjabi. Pls remember in Undivided Panjab all ICS had to learn Panjabi from a book called "Panjabi Baat Cheet", which was nothing but a compendium of abuses. Towards the end of his learning Panjabi the Munshi would ask the Gora ICS (later Gujju, Bangali and Tamil etc also) that it is said (by other people) that Panjabis are an uncouth and uncultured race and the new Rangroot would have to abuse such People in the choicest of Panjabi adjectives tracing their ancestry in somewhat incestous terms and establishing conjugal relations netween them and their family and relatives with no discrimination to sex. The Munshi would beam and sign on his Pass Book passed.

Since you and DM do not abuse you are expelled from our fraternity. Zeemax will put you in a gas chamber in Pak and i will do the same here.

Or else you can do tauba, reaffirm your faith and do Nikaah with your wife again.

Teri Maa**&^, Teri Paan __)(*(*, Teri teeh #@#&*(,

Sanatani

mr. madani: i am panjabi and i dont abuse. dost mittar is panjabi and he doesnt abuse. there are a gazillion panjabis who dont abuse.

so perhaps you need to re-evaluate your statement about you being urdu-speaking and therefore non-abusive and your uncalled for negative remarks about panjabis. please refrain from such stupid stereotyping - duh!!

Re: # 47 Mr Ecobomb and Salim... thanks you both are kind to kind words. Prsently I am rejected now most times, as supported Brother Masadi. Its fine I just stopped so they can not reject, instead I listen to good hindustani music and pet my cats. As you know I speak urdu so not in habit of abusing ( There is kind of fad when to punjabis met and frendly they start with abuses if you do not use abuses they feel some thing is wrong. I think there is some thing more than fad). It is my desire to put pics of both cats here do not know how. May some body will write about cats and can just put them on net.

#84 Posted by kaurasach

[India can not gloat. Again, India is a beggar and a leper covered in silken clothes. ]

No. India is a wealthy man covered in rags. But it's true that gloating is beyond moronic.

#83 Posted by Salim_Chauhan

[IB Sahib,
So well stated. I agree with you and the reason I am so harsh on us Muslims is that I am one myself and Islam deserves much better than what we represent to outsiders (and even to our own.)]

This is true. The actual evildoings of Muslims over the ages cannot be rewritten - it is too big a project. But the Koran and especially mo's life history are due for a rewrite. The Muslims deserve something much better.


[No religion has contributed more Muslims to Islam than has Hinduism - consider India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, and as far as Cambodia. ]

Yes. This contribution is important. Because when 100% of the population is Muslim, there won't be anyone to question anything. Now that's utopia.


[Islam, with its emphasis on equality of mankind,....]

Yes, all men (Muslims) are equal under Islam. Non-Muslims will be tolerated IF they pay the right taxes (prescribed by God, of course), and behave.


[ universal brotherhood,...]


...of all Muslims. If you are non-Muslim, you're outside the pale - even if you are the "prophet's" parents.


[... an inherently anti-racist philosophy,...}

There was never any mention of race - because like a frog in a well, mo's world was limited to bedouins. But when presented with two slave-girls - one white, and one not - guess which one he picked (with his right hand, of course).


[...and solid monotheistic values is a natural and appealing path for many Hindus.]

Yes. Because if they did not "convert" they would be unable to think independently - and this would be a major impediment in their spiritual quest. After "conversion" they could then be studying the badly done cut-and-paste nonsense fifty times a day - day in and day out.



[Muslims must behave in a way that will make Hindus tear down the doors of mosques to be let in rather than tear down the domes of mosques to bury those inside.]

Yes. Hindus have done this repeatedly - torn down the domes of mosques to bury those inside.


[Instead we try to emulate the Catholics in brutality, the Protestants in extremism, the Jews in selfishness, the Hindus in confusion, and the Buddhists in lack of accountability.....]

....in keeping with the "holy" trends set by that good man, mo.

Bania mentality here. We've more money more money more money.....less glory, character, respect, humanity.....but more money more money.....that will be looted by another invader soon.....

Such gloating is like a knajar who is whored his own family to strangers and then boasts he has more money than the customers.

India can not gloat. Again, India is a beggar and a leper covered in silken clothes.

IB #79 {" agree with you post 76 (although you had been a bit harsh on us - Muslims ) there is a false sense of superiority among Muslims - and specially in Pakistan with regards to Hindu(s) of India .
... It is more to do with 'Jahalat' then religion.
I hope we change - and try to respect other religions. "}

IB Sahib,
So well stated. I agree with you and the reason I am so harsh on us Muslims is that I am one myself and Islam deserves much better than what we represent to outsiders (and even to our own.)

No religion has contributed more Muslims to Islam than has Hinduism - consider India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, and as far as Cambodia.

Islam, with its emphasis on equality of mankind, universal brotherhood, an inherently anti-racist philosophy, and solid monotheistic values is a natural and appealing path for many Hindus.

Muslims must behave in a way that will make Hindus tear down the doors of mosques to be let in rather than tear down the domes of mosques to bury those inside.

Instead we try to emulate the Catholics in brutality, the Protestants in extremism, the Jews in selfishness, the Hindus in confusion, and the Buddhists in lack of accountability.

#80 Jang {"salim bhayya, the support for pakistan movement was not out of religiuous bigotary..if at all it was out of little-bit of racism..one that says that the ashrafiya class deserves a jagir. that is why they were perfectly happy with a moth-eaten solution leaving all the kala-kaluta hindustani muslims behind."}

Jang,
That is a very clever and ingenious approach to defining the haphazard, unplanned, and rather stupid leap at creating Pakistan. Clearly, there are plenty of "ashrafi" Muslims left in India and many, many "kala-kaluta hindustanis" undertook the migration. If anything the migration was more geographical than class-oriented - consider almost all of Delhi, all of East Punjab, much of western UP, large parts of Gujarat, and much of western Rajasthan. In fact, the largest portion of "kala-kaluta" Muslims lived in East Bengal, which did become Pakistan - for almost 25 years.

Re: # 80 jang ,
the movement of Pakistan was not 'religious' - it was a movement for 'the rights of muslims and minorities of south asia' - nothing to do with racism . Pakistan was used as a bargaining stategy but in the end it was people like Nehru/Sardar who cornered MAJ in 1946 - hence, Pakistan came into being.
Good reading would be why Mohammad Ali Jinnah (amb. of Hindu-Muslim Unity) a prok eater became Quaid-e-Azam ( voice of Muslims of United India - even with the muslims who stayed in India atleast they voted for Muslim League in Hindu Dominated Areas ) .

As for Hindus - there's a cast system which is present in Shining India then there's discrimination towards muslims, sikhs and other minorities in India . It's not racism as Salim Cohan said - it's discrimination . But treatment of lower casts by upper-class is classed as racism.

salim bhayya, the support for pakistan movement was not out of religiuous bigotary..if at all it was out of little-bit of racism..one that says that the ashrafiya class deserves a jagir. that is why they were perfectly happy with a moth-eaten solution leaving all the kala-kaluta hindustani muslims behind.

Re: # 76 Salim Bhai -
I agree with you post 76 (although you had been a bit harsh on us - Muslims ) there is a false sense of superiority among Muslims - and specially in Pakistan with regards to Hindu(s) of India .
I was posted somewhere in remote Pakistan where I had interactions with lot of our rural-class ( not educated yet politically aware ) - most of them still thinks one muslim equals to 10 hindus syndrome. I kept quiet!
It's always easy to blame other's . I believe we muslims should seriously question ourselves as to how we act specially with regards to non-muslims. It is more to do with 'Jahalat' then religion.
I hope we change - and try to respect other religions.

beej, :)

Echoboom #47 {"YOU SAID IT MAN! Mr. ahmed Madani , the most knowledgeable, non-intellectualised,, original, and un-cynical, non-westocicated interactor has told us that.
"}

Echo Sahib,
I have always admired Mr. Ahmad Madani's unique style and his totally honest and unpredictable interpretation of events and philosophies. The man is informed, but not bigoted, confident but not cocky, knowledgable but not Mr. know-it-all, and polite but not subservient. I say we make him run for high office.

BJ Kumar #51 {"I use the term “racist” with relation to those Muslims (on either side of the border) who supported the separation of a people based on the religious label!
...
The worldwide trait of a racist is that racists make a distinction among “their kind” from the “other kind”. ...PS: Talking of getting rid of foolishness, have you made up yet with Ms. Saminasha on that most ludicrous, meaningless, and long-running chowk feud?"}

BJ Bhayya,
I understand your definition of "racist," but permit me to say that you are ignoring a very basic element of racism. The term you should use for Muslims demanding a separate homeland is "religious bigots." Racism has to do with the emphasis on physical, racial, ethnic characteristics of people which are quite visible externally and usually are difficult to change - skin/hair/eye color, hair texture, nasal appearance, height, shape of lips/eyes/eyebrows, etc.. Religious bigots usually welcome converts to their cause, racists want to keep their group "pure." Muslims are by definition not racists (although events in Sudan, East Pakistan, and some parts of Afghanistan are suspected exceptions!). Muslims, unfortunately have always been religious bigots - even among themselves. Racism is definitely stupid and displays extreme insecurity among racists. Religious bigotry is somewhat less stupid and displays a false sense of superiority among Muslims. It is somewhat less stupid because the victims can always convert, but then that is not a decent excuse.

As to the matter of the long-running feud, all I can say is:

Is the bear Catholic?
Does the Pope shit in the woods?

#various Laddu

Ama Laddu, couldn't you be a bit sweeter?

I have stated elsewhere before that I have no expertise on the Quran. Please direct your questions to those who claim such expertise - perhaps mian T32 will volunteer?! :)

You could also ask Naqshbandi sahib, who ranks it number one (to ten) in his list of top fifty books to read and reread and reread!

#71 Kambakhat Kaal (K2)

[Gandhiji ...advocating return to the varna system.]

When did he advocate that stuff?!

Don't tell me you have started buying into Yasser's (highly dubious) "sources".

Knowing you, it won't surprise me if you are buying into the same on purpose! :)

Here is a bit from Wikipedia on Gandhiji's faith:

Gandhi was born a Hindu and practised Hinduism all his life, deriving most of his principles from Hinduism. As a common Hindu, he believed all religions to be equal, and rejected all efforts to convert him to a different faith. He was an avid theologian and read extensively about all major religions. He had the following to say about Hinduism:

"Hinduism as I know it entirely satisfies my soul, fills my whole being ... When doubts haunt me, when disappointments stare me in the face, and when I see not one ray of light on the horizon, I turn to the Bhagavad Gita, and find a verse to comfort me; and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming sorrow. My life has been full of tragedies and if they have not left any visible and indelible effect on me, I owe it to the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita."

Gandhi wrote a commentary on the Bhagavad Gita in Gujarati. The Gujarati manuscript was translated into English by Mahadev Desai, who provided an additional introduction and commentary. It was published with a Foreword by Gandhi in 1946.[26][27]

Gandhi believed that at the core of every religion was truth and love (compassion, nonviolence and the Golden Rule (Ethic of Reciprocity)). He also questioned hypocrisy, malpractices and dogma in all religions and was a tireless social reformer. Some of his comments on various religions are:

"Thus if I could not accept Christianity either as a perfect, or the greatest religion, neither was I then convinced of Hinduism being such. Hindu defects were pressingly visible to me. If untouchability could be a part of Hinduism, it could but be a rotten part or an excrescence. I could not understand the raison d'etre of a multitude of sects and castes. What was the meaning of saying that the Vedas were the inspired Word of God? If they were inspired, why not also the Bible and the Koran? As Christian friends were endeavouring to convert me, so were Muslim friends. Abdullah Sheth had kept on inducing me to study Islam, and of course he had always something to say regarding its beauty." (source: his autobiography)

"As soon as we lose the moral basis, we cease to be religious. There is no such thing as religion over-riding morality. Man, for instance, cannot be untruthful, cruel or incontinent and claim to have God on his side."

"The sayings of Muhammad are a treasure of wisdom, not only for Muslims but for all of mankind."

Later in his life when he was asked whether he was a Hindu, he replied:

"Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew."

In spite of their deep reverence to each other, Gandhi and Rabindranath Tagore engaged in protracted debates more than once. These debates exemplify the philosophical differences between the two most famous Indians at the time. On January 15, 1934, an earthquake hit Bihar and caused extensive damage and loss of life. Gandhi maintained this was because of the sin committed by upper caste Hindus by not letting untouchables in their temples (Gandhi was committed to the cause of improving the fate of untouchables, referring to them as Harijans, people of Krishna). Tagore vehemently opposed Gandhi's stance, maintaining that an earthquake can only be caused by natural forces, not moral reasons, however repugnant the practice of untouchability may be.

IB: The Supreme Court did not call for the release of any suspected criminals. It called for the application of habeas corpus, which means that any individual detained by the government must be produced before court within a specified time (generally 24 hours) and the charges specified and considered through judicial procedure.

All the government had to do was submit evidence for judicial review. Instead it chose to simply free these indivduals. Thus proving that either

1. it did not have evidence against these individuals, and thus was demonstrating once again musharraf's disregard for the basic rights of Pakistanis; or

2. it had the evidence, but chose to free these indivdiuals anyway for political reasons (i.e. for the US and the international community to conclude what you concluded (i.e. that if musharraf goes, the terrorists win). In this case, this would demonstrate the extent to which musharraf is prepared to go to cling to his illegitimate power.

Take your pick. :-)

Re: # 66
T-Ahmed , yaar I agree with a lot of things CJ is doing but the missing persons - most of them are hardcore terrorists - fanatics who are danger to society when they are allowed to mix with the society.

Actually, it is very hard to find any reasonably educated interpretationist Hindu, the last one having apparently died when Gandhiji stopped advocating return to the varna system.

So may be we shouldn't dismiss beej's attempt entirely, if he could just explain it....

Beej Babu,

Quran is supposed to be the simplest of all the messages that every illiterate bedouin was supposed to understand.

Your "signal loss" theory does not make any sense. Every true momeen is clear about it's verses. To think that by some stretch of imagination you would be saved from the fate that awaits an idolator would be fooling yourself.

re: beej # 62

beej babu, don't you think most people assume at least that much? :)

laddu and I have serious and very significant differences in our opinions, but both of us, and many others on chowk, will agree with you that human beings essentially are not born differently just because they are born in different households.

BJ Bhai read this-

"Ayaan Hirsi Ali: "Human beings are equal; cultures are not. A culture that celebrates femininity is not equal to a culture that trims the genitals of her girls...A culture with courts that punish a husband for forcing his wife to have sex with him is not equal to a culture with a tribunal that decrees a young woman be gang-raped for talking to a boy of an allegedly higher caste....A culture that insists on holding open a position for women in its Supreme Court is not equal to a culture that declares that the testimony of a woman is worth half of that of a man"

Re: # 62

I think you would appreciate that I am mature enough to understand the difference between ISlam and muslims.

Islam is a cult. Muslims are born into it and are victims of it.

Dhimmitude ensures that the cult is NEVER criticized by Dhimmis like you. Muslims are as human as any one of us idolators - it is Islam that turns them into what they are.

I would recommend that you read the Quran and Shahi Hadiths carefully if you need to understand the difference between the two.

The Chief Justice's fight begins to bear fruit...

'Illegally held' Pakistanis freed

Pakistan's security agencies have released three illegally detained men in time to meet a Supreme Court ruling.

The head of Pakistan's main security agency had been told he faced jail if one of the men was not produced in court by Tuesday.

Hundreds of people have gone missing in Pakistan since 2001.

Human rights agencies say that many are being illegally detained by the security agencies, which often deny any knowledge of their whereabouts.

Missing

Abdul Basit, Aleem Nasir, a German national, and Imran Munir, a Pakistani-Malaysian national, were reunited with their families late on Tuesday.

The missing people's case came into the spotlight in late 2006, when Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry started regular hearings and ordered senior government officials to produce those in illegal detention.

...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6957986.stm

First there’s shining India – then there’s a rising one and now Great Indian Empire – Indians live in limbo. In a country which houses more then 350 million people earning less or a dollar a day; 250 million earning couple of dollars – god knows how many homeless people – farmers committing suicides – there’s no trickle down effect to this day. What’s there to be proud off?

On Moguls, why are we Pakistanis defend them? Moguls did not cared about the so-called ‘Muslim Cause’ – they were only interested in there luxurious lifestyles and expansion of property – yes, Moguls or the elitist were the biggest feudal of sub-continent by taking money from us and not actually sharing the money or investing back on infrastructure. Same goes for the Hindu and Sikh rulers of the sub-continent.

I remember going to Fatehpur Sikri – Moguls moved capitals just because of Sheik Salim Chishti and then moved back – show’s the maturity and brains of moguls which ruled us.

India is a huge country – a civilization – we in Pakistan share history , It’s better now to move away from our past (learn a lesson) and just move on . Pakistani’s Agree or Not – India is a power in Asia to recon with – I just hope the poor gets to share the wealth both in India and Pakistan.

First there’s shining India – then there’s a rising one and now Great Indian Empire – Indians live in limbo. In a country which houses more then 350 million people earning less or a dollar a day; 250 million earning couple of dollars – god knows how many homeless people – farmers committing suicides – there’s no trickle down effect to this day. What’s there to be proud off?

On Moguls, why are we Pakistanis defend them? Moguls did not cared about the so-called ‘Muslim Cause’ – they were only interested in there luxurious lifestyles and expansion of property – yes, Moguls or the elitist were the biggest feudal of sub-continent by taking money from us and not actually sharing the money or investing back on infrastructure. Same goes for the Hindu and Sikh rulers of the sub-continent.

I remember going to Fatehpur Sikri – Moguls moved capitals just because of Sheik Salim Chishti and then moved back – show’s the maturity and brains of moguls which ruled us.

India is a huge country – a civilization – we in Pakistan share history , It’s better now to move away from our past (learn a lesson) and just move on . Pakistani’s Agree or Not – India is a power in Asia to recon with – I just hope the poor gets to share the wealth both in India and Pakistan.

William,

In spite of the negatives of British rule and the

horrendous conduct visa vi partition, the culture

which is Urdu blossomed in misery and defeat and found

a voice in the work of Mirza Asadullah Khan Ghalib and

others.

Ras

#56 laddu

[Say that more clearly without wasting too much of band width that Islam is indeed the most racist of all the cults and has relegated slavery and second grade citizen ship to dhimmis and prescribes death to idolators.]

Laddu dear, sorry I can not say that.

I do recognize that there may be people here who will read – in some of what I have written – some of the material that you have written above. There is little I can do to stop that. (BTW, many of my “harsh” comments actually result from real anguish at the state of affairs!)

One needs to make a distinction between (1) what is written versus how it is interpreted, (2) if the interpreter has a stake in skewing that interpretation, (3) if the interpreter has the expertise and background to communicate the material correctly, (4) if the target audience has the ability to understand what is being communicated, (5) if the listener actually practices all that he/she hears.

My own understanding is there is “signal loss” at every one of the stages – but most of it happens in stage five. Because of all that, most practitioners of ANY faith do not really pay too much attention to what their religion (theoretically) says – and are too busy just meeting the (mundane) needs of life. The essential humanity of every human being remains the same. People – at least those who have a need for spiritual sustenance would reach into their own Books and take what THEY are looking for – because from a basket of whole bunch of goodies, it is possible to draw out virtually every surprise (pleasant or otherwise) one could look for. It is up to the individual to exercise good judgment – if they do not, they lose out.

Gandhiji believed in that essential sameness and goodness of mankind – if others (like Jinnah) do not believe it and want to make a distinction among people, they can do that but I do not have to agree to their mistaken thinking – whatever credentials they claim!

Simply said, it will be a travesty to dump the whole burden on every person (man, woman, and child) of any group of people and paint them with one brush.

masanamuthu, now THAT is a beautiful and wonderful name. Masan, you should consider letting mr pimple use your name, for sufficient consideration, of course.

what's up with so many Dalrymple articles in chowk?..

This guy is fit to be a court historian for Mughals. He would have felt happy with a harem of some sorts..

He believes the "White Mughals" had a nice time by going "native" with a big harem and hundreds of servants to fulfill their wishes and longs for those days when there was supposedly intermingling of cultures..

Echodada #55

White Moghul. That's the beginning and that's the end.

(For all its successes, the British civilization always remained a mercantile one. It left many yearnings unfulfilled.)

beej, Hope chowk staff overlooks that gustaakhi.

But I just find dalyumple a very strange name, and can't imagine why any half decent person with a quarter decent morals would not abandon it for something normal, like beej bihari, patna wale. Hard to take someone of that name seriously :(

Kedarnathji, I am somewhat contrite abt quoting an email sent by an unknown dickhead. Feel like HP of Chowk. Sorry.

Re: # 42

BJ Bhai,

Say that more clearly without wasting too much of band width that Islam is indeed the most racist of all the cults and has relegated slavery and second grade citizen ship to dhimmis and prescribes death to idolators.

http://www.williamdalrymple.com (His web page)

Read some of his most wonderful observations/reviews on Tipoo Sultan, The great Khilfats of Islam..especially Baghdad.

I have a feeling that he is fascinated by Islam & Muslims and all the grandeur & dynamism associated with it. I think he is trying to bring out to the western world what has yet been deliberately concealed by the Imperialists , Colonisers & the colonised (dogs) mindset of the Oooons.

This "article" was perhaps published in April 2007..maybe even earlier but I spotted it published somewhere with that dateline.

Will D has perhaps not even seen this site..though a formal permission was obtained from him by CHOWK STAFF.

It was not a bad idea to have him here for august but maybe only one article was enough & others could have been given
as suggestions but not for interacts...& then there was the wart-faced Phoodbhoy....

astaghfarullaaah

P.S: Is it possible that ROMAIR, now Bulleya, had anything to do with this Anniversary Special.

#52 Kaalchakra

Casey, you live in your own la-la land!

First, if the Rymple is not reading these interacts, he is not losing anything – especially his time!

Second, one can NEVER learn much about the subcontinent by watching people on this site – whose denizens are invariably fakers who are either a bunch of gutless expatriate cowards hanging on for dear life to bygone myths and prejudices of yester-decades while denying the existence of the same – or couch potatoes from the sub continent who are stuck inside their own honeycomb cells worse than any prisoners-for-life trapped inside Sing-Sing could ever be! The Rymple has been learning of India by mingling with the common folks of that country – not by clinking wine glasses with the obnoxiously fat, rich buffoons of its metropolises.

Third, I doubt he cares whether you envy the Brits. (Assuming Scots can be designated as such.) People who have settled among those of a different land usually have learnt to rise above such prejudices.

Fourth, his ancestors would not agree that they committed a folly by landing up in India. I think they made it good! (Looking at the old pictures, most of them look prosperous and fat!)

Fifth, since he is not spending his time here but WE are – who do you think is REALLY “paying” for it?

PS: You may be breaking some chowk guidelines by distorting his name!

Mr. Damnpimple,

It's your loss you probably don't read these interacts. If you did, you will learn a lot about us Indians and Pakistanis. :)
--------------------

Sincerely, I don't envy you Brits. You are paying for the folly of your ancestors landing up in India. But at least you are paying for it :)

#46 Salim Chauhan

Salim my dear,

Clearly, not every individual (in any group) is made from the same cloth. Lately, I have taken to a bit of sweeping statements and generalizations (because even tireless people like me do get lazy over time). :(

I use the term “racist” with relation to those Muslims (on either side of the border) who supported the separation of a people based on the religious label!

I do so because the term “racist” is the one that comes closest to my mind when I think of such people.

The worldwide trait of a racist is that racists make a distinction among “their kind” from the “other kind”. That was the underlying basis for the creation of Pakistan – no matter however else one (tries to) slice it and dice it and serve it!

In my opinion, there is little point in calling something “stupid” after the fact – which is how you are looking at it. It probably works fine as far as venting one’s feelings are concerned – but gives us no lessons for the future. However, when we try to give the problem a shape and outline that we can understand and recognize – we can use such understanding to prevent it from recurring later.

Since racism all over the world been has been pretty much discredited, clearly racists (by and large) are not “smart”! For example, within the USA, most of the racism permeates the stratum of society which is less educated, generally poor, and many times exploited by others – not the characteristics of a smart lot. But are racists – by definition, all stupid?! Unfortunately not! Some of those people are opportunists who can exploit the foolishness of others and bring about catastrophe! I prefer to call such people pure evil!

PS: Talking of getting rid of foolishness, have you made up yet with Ms. Saminasha on that most ludicrous, meaningless, and long-running chowk feud?

echoboom #43:

{{THe tragedy is that the Baboons came as traders, & not as mujahids..an act vilified & scorned by superior cultures...}}

Superior cultures by your definition … which has no particular claims to universality. So the pirates came to trade – but they found out soon enough that the structure was rotten, and they were smart enough to take full advantage of it. Face it, by 1800 they had dominance in practically every tangible field of human endeavour, from science to government to warmaking. They used those advantages to the hilt. Your favourite civilization’s alleged superiority is only in your head and nowhere else – its demise is a tragedy for you but not for me.

Will you ever realise that your exalting mujahids and despising baniyas and intellectuals may be a fatal weakness?

echoboom #43:

I don’t know why you brought up China and Japan. For the record, China has a long and very impressive record of steady technical innovation through about 1700. They were world leaders until the Europeans overtook them. India for that matter did originate some innovations like the technique for making wootz steel.

I asked about mathematics because this is a field where India was very competitive with other civilizations for a very long period. Almost all the early Indian mathematicians were astrologers/astronomers by trade. Ujjain down the centuries was a major centre for these people. Around 1200 CE mathematics in North India seems to peter out. I wonder what happened around that time?

It’s not as though Muslims were not interested in observational astronomy – they had to be, for fairly obvious reasons. Apparently Humayun built an observatory or two. Moreover Muslims down the centuries have not been averse to writing books. So why do we hear nothing of mathematics under the Mughals or their predecessors? Was there none, or were the records destroyed?

#43 Posted by echoboom on August 21, 2007 1:48:49 pm


look now we have billionaires & ITers".


Presence of billionaires in India represents opportunity, not prosperity. conversely, the lack of billionaires(or near billionaires) in pureland represents lack of opportunity.



There are Mujahids of all kinds . Some prefer labs & some prefer battle-fields.


You pakis are failures in labs and failures in battlefields...

#45 Posted by Salim_Chauhan
Masadi #35
You rock!


YOU SAID IT MAN! Mr. ahmed Madani , the most knowledgeable, non-intellectualised,, original, and un-cynical, non-westocicated interactor has told us that.

Do you know where the Ooons are? CHOWK-1997 to CHOWK 2007 what an ecstatic experience of mutiple-flinchisms by the Ooons.

Keep 'em comin'

bjkumar #42 {"one could point to the caste system (now beginning to disappear) among Hindus and one could point to the strong racism of the Muslims (the “we are different from other people of faith so we must be treated differently” mindset – which would later lead to Pakistan)."}

BJ Bhayya,
You are totally wrong. There was nothing racist about Muslims attitude leading to Pakistan - it was not racism, it was STUPIDITY.

Masadi #35
You rock!

Will you all stop it you making me feel guilty,next time I draw my dole I’ll be thinking if this is paid for by the blood of my forefathers.

This what our music teacher used to make us sing in school.

“Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves”

Jang:

The filth, poverty, and the immorality of US or India also cannot be attributed to the progress made by .." look now we have billionaires & ITers".

All over the world there waere monarchs..the Britto-Baboons monarch & their Kohinoor from ammaaN-India is a good example of their great civilization of producing Haraamis, Khusraas , & kanjarRs who are quite happy to recolonise India again via Follywood & the great advancement India is making in posting its Maader-Rates & Maader-RUNS for the world to see via sattelite.

AlephNull:
You switched the subject. Even today India, China, & even Japan are nowhere close to the Scientific R&D..the reasons are complex..but the ode-coolie syndrome & the urge to become Daakters or get Jaabs in Labs is the prefered route for the baniaa minds always looking for security & savings.

There are Mujahids of all kinds . Some prefer labs & some prefer battle-fields. THe tragedy is that the Baboons came as traders, & not as mujahids..an act vilified & scorned by superior cultures...it is called buGHal meiN churree , munh pay daam daam ( is there an equivalent in Baboon-babble?)

The administrative consolidation of the Indian subcontinent was not carried out with a view to bring any benefits to the natives – it was for the convenience of the ruling parties – therefore, it makes no sense to “praise” the British for that. It just happened. The British were not there for the good of the public – they were there to benefit themselves – and they tried to make life better – mostly for themselves!

Now, a couple of cents regarding the atrocities committed during the days of the Raj.

The goras who inhabited India back then were afflicted with the same disease of racism that goras all over the world were (and who remained that way) for at least three or four centuries. Racism was a widespread disease (and in certain pockets, it still is).

But one must be fair – racism came in many varieties back then and it does so today also. For example, one could point to the caste system (now beginning to disappear) among Hindus and one could point to the strong racism of the Muslims (the “we are different from other people of faith so we must be treated differently” mindset – which would later lead to Pakistan).

Which of those racisms is the worst? Actually they all are bad – but people criticize the one that THEY are at the receiving end of. Accordingly, one would find people of color complaining about color-based racism in the USA (and in other parts of the world) but seldom find goras doing so (at least back in those days (many Christians being notable exceptions – because their religious conviction overcame the prejudice)).

In the same way, in today’s Pakistan, you rarely find a Pakistani admit his or her religion-based racism – most would merely make excuses!

Regarding whether the British promoted religious intolerance – it is amply clear that the fault lines were present for a long time – well before the British arrived. There were some fair Mughal rulers and some who committed atrocities – but being fair was strictly upto the whim of an individual ruler (dictator). Those who were doing well under that setup wanted to keep the status quo – for their own personal benefit. As needed, the British played those fault lines to their own advantage – mostly propping up the likes of the Jinnah. But the British did not invent the religious intolerance previously present and vigorously built up by the Jinnah in the 1940’s – they merely took advantage of it. Therefore, the blame for that must be put on that head man – the dead man!

echo, you are right about akbars income. the problem is akbars income was pretty much half of entire indias income (well it costed entire india half its income to fill emperors treasury).

In the period between 1530 and 1690 Europe saw the work of Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton, Leibniz. What does North India under the Mughals, with its huge physical resource base, have to show in the same period? Do we know of a single mathematician of note who flourished under the Mughals or for that matter under any Islamicate empire or kingdom of India?

So the Mughal court was opulent. Where are the great libraries, the universities where secular learning could be pursued?

So the Mughals had huge and hugely destructive armies. Did they produce competitive innovations in the technique of efficient warmaking? For that matter, did they ever suceed in pacifying the domains from which they extracted gigantic revenues?

Why shouldn’t we regard the Mughal period as one during which India stagnated while Europe raced ahead?

An attempt to deeducate the Ba Ba Blacksheep, the toata mainaas, and the Cantonment & Colony Kuttaas who feel proud to be westoxicated & take immense pleasure in self-loathing and self-derision.
______________________________________________________
A Time-Line of Indian Economy

5 BC
Silver punch-marked coins were minted by the Mahajanapadas

1 AD
India's economy had a 32.9% share of world income, the largest in the world.

1000AD
India's economy had a 28.9% share of world income, the largest in the world.

1500AD

India's economy had a 24.5% share of world income, the second largest in the world after China, which had a 25% share.

1600 AD

India had an income of £17.5 million, under Akbar's Mughal Empire, in contrast to the entire treasury of Great Britain in 1800, which totalled £16 million.

1700AD

India's economy had a 24.4% share of world income, the largest in the world, under Aurangzeb's Mughal Empire.

Colonial period
East India Company
1793

1793 Cornwallis' Permanent Settlement Instituted in Bengal
1820
India's economy had a 16% share of world income, the second largest in the world after Japan [citation needed]

British Raj
1868

First estimation of India's national income by Dadabhai Naoroji
1870

India's economy had a 12.2% share of world income under the British Empire.
1913

India's economy had a 7.6% share of world income under the British Empire.


1943
Famine of Bengal

References
Maddison, Angus (2004). The World Economy: Historical Statistics. OECD. ISBN 92-64-10412-7. (See Sample Table.)
World Bank, July 1, 2006. PPP GDP 2005.
This article related or pertaining to the economy of India is a stub. See the WikiProject India for article coordination. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_economy_of_India"

Ama yaar Dalrymple,

One GurgaoN does not the whole of India make! And a bunch of overworked night owls haranguing Amrikkan and other goras at all the God-forsaken hours of the day and the night does not a stable industrial base create!

The Capitalistic system is a great equalizer by itself. It owes no national loyalties – it runs on the simple God given fuel of greed for profit. In an otherwise stable setup, what allows the profits to get realized, are the lower wages (strictly by comparison). This allows the industries to get set up – then the wages rise – and as the wages rise, the profit margin falls and sure enough, the companies start looking elsewhere for cheaper labor.

The Capitalistic system is VERY self-regulating.

What you are witnessing is the upside of a newly unshackled economy. Unfortunately, many of us are also only too familiar with its down side which will inevitably come. Therefore, invoking that “the days of the Sonay ki chiDia are here again” is rather premature!

Of course, the history of the Raj and the centuries preceding it make for fascinating reading all by themselves and we will be extremely happy to read your related works (even fiction, perhaps mostly fiction) that you can come up with – especially at the unbeatable Chowk prices that most of us pay! (Although you as a writer may be less happy with the exactly same level of chowk compensation – I am not counting the mug! (No, the mug does not refer to your head. (What do you mean they did not give you one yet? (Even Manto has got one!))))

There is no need to carry out this shotgun-wedding of the present day GurgaoN with those long-ago days of the Raj! The times of the Raj were different – some may remember with nostalgia, some with dread, most with boredom! On the whole, we are all better off living in the present times with an improved level of enlightenment!

William Dalrymple,

I think this site has been invaded – by YOU!

Three pieces in three days! What the heck are you, a writing machine or an author on autopilot?! :)

I have not seen anybody crank out so much redundant text in such a short time since….

Since, since….

Oh, forget it!

Now, tell us the truth.

Who the heck are you and where the heck have you been all these years?!

I mean, here was this site – gagging up on its own overabundance of sub continental wisdom – yet withering away for the lack of goraas – and there you were, you sneaky you – perhaps lurking yet too chicken to show your thobra! Absconding!

And now you show up and try to deluge us with words!

Anyway, like the proverbial two cats (in this case, one an eighth the size of the other (unless you count for ego, in which case the two are about the same size)) we of the subcontinent have been fighting over that piece of bread (Kashmir, you might think, and you would be wrong – we have been fighting over a bigger bread – the very justification for our existence as a secular or religion-based nation (No, you can not have it both ways!))

We have been fighting and fighting, without getting anywhere!

All we needed was that smart monkey to do justice to the two cats – and there you are! Just make sure you don’t gobble up the bread yourself.

And welcome to the chowk!

PS: pay no attention to jealous naysayers!

India before the 17th century was the biggest producer & exporter of iron & steel. Its heavy industry was quite unrivalled even by China.
If one reads even the food the baboons ate in the nineteenth century it would be enough for them to puke at the low level of "culture" that existed then among them.
For the benefit of slaves it it Willam D. himself who has given a complete account of all the above in his "Last Mughal".The slaves , because of their illiteracy in their own language, have no clue about themselves. William D obtained all that info. obtained from Urdu & Persian records, meticulously kept & still available, despite the plunder by the Baboons, and has made the slaves a bit "enlightened" now.

This is what happens to the Cantonment & Colony Kuttas from the Kennels of Mcaulay.

Such were the times before the Baboons brought their barbarity on the shores of Tehzeeb.

There is a lot more that can be written here but those who have been jaahilled by the westocixation can never ever understand all this because the worst form of slavery is the one of the mind..when the slave self-loathes himself &
writes himself off as nothing but a dog of the west.

Without colonization Britain would be a backwater third rate rat-fart piece of land, the Indians would have been fluorishing in North America, Australia would be heaven for the natives,South America would be prosperous and Africa would not be dying of AIDS, and the slave trade would never have reached the proportions it did due to such colonization, and India would be an economic powerhouse that would dwarf the European nations of the world, who would probably be still grovelling in their sewage without their contact with the Muslim world and the resulting rennaissance....There was zero good that came out of Colonization, ZERO, will the harms still affect us to this day, those who debate the good vs bad of colonization suffer from moth eaten morality where they justify barbarism, rape, slavery and racism of the kind never before seen in human history, all for the enrichment of the racially exclusive few. F, colonization, and the F the supporters of it like tahmed, and F the US elite that are continuing that same colonization today, and making the vast majority of the world suffer...

{"At their heights the Mughal Emperors were really rivalled only by their Ming counterparts in China. From the ramparts of the Fort, the Great Mughals ruled over most of India, all of Pakistan and Bangladesh, and great chunks of Afghanistan. Their armies were all but invincible; their palaces unparalleled; the domes of their many mosques quite literally glittered with gold. For their contemporaries in distant Europe they were potent symbols of power and wealth- connotations of course with which the word Mughal (or Mogul) is still loaded with today, even when divorced from its original Indian context."}

Bill,
Excellent tribute to one of the greatest dynasties the world has seen with six successive and successful father/son successions.
There is absolutely no point in bringing up the India/Pakistan nonsense or claim this as "Muslim" superiority or use right-wing Hindutva idiocy to consider this as an exploitation of "dhimmidom."
Please understand the Mughals as very able administrators in the age of their contemporaries - the Ottomans, the Safavids, the Hapsburgs, the Tudors, or the Bourbons.

While I don't agree that the cities of Lahore and Agra outpaced Constantinople or Venice (maybe London or Paris)or even Toledo in grandeur, one must acknowledge the advanced state of civilization in Mughal India during the 16th and 17th centuries. Mughal treatment of India was far far better than the Spanish Conquistadores' treatment of Incas, Aztecs, and other conquered peoples. And compared to today's rulers of Pakistan, the Mughals were certainly far more sovereign and independent.

#31 shahji, when the angrej amabsador gave shahjehan a ghode-ki-baggi (carrige) he was very impressed with its springs. europe indeed did have universities in 1600s, and roads and bridges and navigable cannals to transport salt and so on. chinese had professional administrative service as compared to indian which was weird and adhoc

#4 Posted by Folio on August 21, 2007 3:38:44 am
I shall add to what Harish said abt Indians.

I am an Indian who is proud of India and many of its acheivements but let me state clearly that the statistics you are quoting are pure bullsh!t. This email has been making rounds for at least the last 6-7 years (if not more). My guess is that some guy had a little too much time on his hands and came up with this. The original email had asked questions like "who is the CEO of Motorola?" "who is the CEO of Apple" implying that Indians held these top jobs. When I pointed out this glaring inaccuracy in one forum then all of a sudden that part vanished.

I don't place much emphasis on it being put on the Indian Foreign Service's website. Like most government departments they are manned by people who are intellectually lazy and did not bother to cross-check the facts.

However, for argument's sake let's say the figures are true. The bottom line is that why should India feel great if 36% of NASA staff is Indians. I would be happier if ISRO becomes another NASA. Instead of x% of employees in Intel, IBM, Microsoft being Indians, I would be proud if an Indian in India started such companies. When Indian doctors are able to win Nobel Prize for Medicine and do cutting edge research and technology.

"this nation had no universities, servicable metalled roads which could carry carriages, navigable waterways, irrigation sysetms, methodical agriculture, windmills, waterwheels, professional administrative service, effective revenue system, enterprenurial class or industry (industry was limited to producing luxury goods for the rulers). nothing to be proud of imo."
Neither did Europe 400 years ago or pre industrialisation or before rennaisence ....India had the advantage of eating the "cooked " meal.....Its all about time or kaal .there is always dukham after sukham and then again sukham

So all the present euphoria about gdp ,wealth and posperity is nothing more than what HAD been before

"nothing more than a return to the ancient equilibrium of world trade. Today, we Europeans are no longer the gun-toting, gunboat-riding...."

in 1600 india producing 22% of world gdp is one of the stupidest oft repeated canard. yes, indian rulers led immensly rich PERSONAL lifestyles compared to their counterparts elsewhere. but what did it mean to the indian nation? the sone ki chidiya was writhing with maggots struggling to survive.

this nation had no universities, servicable metalled roads which could carry carriages, navigable waterways, irrigation sysetms, methodical agriculture, windmills, waterwheels, professional administrative service, effective revenue system, enterprenurial class or industry (industry was limited to producing luxury goods for the rulers). nothing to be proud of imo.

Dear Author:

I don't know if you-a syndicated writer- read interacts from on-line Chowk. But, why did you choose the title-"The Empire Strikes Back" ?. Actually it was the title of an article written bu Pico Iyer in Time Magazine some years ago. It dealt with the literary contributions in English langauge by non-English writers and the rise of countries which were ruled by the the Bitish.!

Kamath
Aug21, 2007

Re: # 26
Vast majority are useless not up to job, India is better of putting money in primary education, rather than churning these robots out on a conveyor belt.
“Wait a second: this isn't what the picture is supposed to look like. For years, pundits and the press have been warning that the millions of engineers and scientists India and China produce each year would soon challenge the United States' technical superiority. Just a few months ago, the London-based think tank Demos warned in a report that "the center of gravity of innovation has started moving from the West to the East," and that China could become a "scientific superpower" by 2050. Indeed, the raw numbers are impressive. China cranked out more than 600,000 engineers in 2005 alone, and India produces nearly 500,000 technical grads annually.
But these stats only tell half the story. Many of the graduates can't find work, and corporate recruiters in both countries lament a dearth of qualified applicants. "Out of the huge number of engineering and science graduates that India produces, only 25 to 30 percent can be regarded as suitable," says Kiran Karnik, head of the National Association of Software and Services Companies. The reason? Underfunding and a range of other factors have produced serious educational crises in India and China. These problems could soon wreak havoc on their economies. To sustain their breakneck growth, the countries will need lots of high-quality engineers and scientists. Yet neither have enough reliable universities to produce them. M.A. Pai, who taught at the prestigious Indian Institute of Technology in Kanpur, warns that the "lack of highly trained people at the Ph.D. level in both sciences and engineering will be a serious setback to India becoming a knowledge economy."
newsweek

Re: # 2

Aslam dude, engineers supposedly work in factories/labs unlike scientists who supposedly invent.

Its payback time

#21 by aslam644

thousands of engineers produced in india yet they rely on tiny isreal for technology,nothing groundbreaking like tiny UK either like DNA, Cloning etc.

Bhai, is it necessary that just because thousands of engineers are produced, you need to have more inventions? The number of inventions is a function of how many engineers take to research and my general observation is that Indian engineers prefer to work than pursue research. Common sense, isn't it?

How can Islam forget Jihad??

Paki text books want all the young ones to make speeches on Jihad and tell others how it is the basic duty of a citizen of Pakistan to do jihad.

Jihad is indestructible part of Islam and HENCE a necessary foundation of Pakistan.

Ask any Pakistani Abdul!!

"DISAPPEARED PAKISTANIS - relatives protesting in Lahore"

http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_LHE/20070821/Sub_Images/1100 247425-1.jpg

thousands of engineers produced in india yet they rely on tiny isreal for technology,nothing groundbreaking like tiny UK either like DNA, Cloning etc.

Chennai...gtg...we can discuss without touching the subject of jihad.

Re: # 17
Folio: Pakistan is ranked 10th in the list of failed states, 1st in export of terrorism & jehadism; stats that are impressive to say the least...

hamid, pl also consider this:

Pakistanis are NEVER 1/5th of the ppl of Indian Immigrants in any common pool (of Indians+Pakistanis) in any country/city/dist in North America or Europe. Sometimes

Indians are 1/5th of the common pool of immigrants. Strange but true.

What does this tell?

Ppl are escaping the good life in Pakistan i.e seeking bad life in the west!!? Why they are leaving Pakistan in droves (more than Indians) to the west?

(More later)

OK, hamid. Let me play ur game.

Lets take the number of cabbies. Pak cabbies outnumber any nationality anywhere in the world. I shall give u Nottingham Pak cabbies. They are more than 99% of the total cabbies. What does it say?

U can give ur view of the US.

P.S: Arjun, Canu pl keep jihad outta this. Thanks.

#15 Posted by hamidm2 on August 21, 2007 4:54:56 am


...... there is no question that pakistan stinks,


It's not the stink, it's the islamic terrorism coming out of the land of the pure and it's denizens that's a global problem...Do you think you were probed by the TSA agents because pakiland doesn't have a democracy or because ahmedis were declared non-muslims or 4 male witnesses are required to prove a rape?

It's the islamic terrorism, stupid..



for example : with 5 times the population


Nice try...but the population of indians in the US is at the most 3 times the population of purelanders..

Ever looked at the ethnicities of the high school quiz show? or the intel list? very few pakis there, if any...


with one fifth the population pakistan has 50 million cellular phone subscribers while india has only a 100 million ..... so. what does this mean? .. a)pakistan is a telecom powerhouse


Using a telephone(imported) and a cellular switching network(imported) doesn't make you a telecom superpower anymore than pakis being the leading downloaders of porn makes them masters in internet networking technologies...

india actually has r&d labs for most of the manufacturers whose imports you use...

Re: # 6

hairsh mian,

...... there is no question that pakistan stinks, but from what i hear india is no perfumery either ....

..... besides, you can arrive at all kinds of silly conclusions based on statistics ...... for example : with 5 times the population, indian physicians in the usa are only 4 times the number of pakistani physicians ...... so what does this mean: a) pakistani doctors are smarter than indian doctors b) indian doctors have better opportunities back home or c) indians like the stench of raw sewage and cows wandering in the streets (i subscribe to this theory)......... take your pick ................ another case: with one fifth the population pakistan has 50 million cellular phone subscribers while india has only a 100 million ..... so. what does this mean? .. a)pakistan is a telecom powerhouse b)indians are too cheap to buy a cell phone c) pakis like to talk d)pakis are stupid show-offs and will spend good money on useless gadgets (which i believe to be true) .......

Pakistan de-recognising

Chennai,

hamid had issues with his native Pakistan and the state policy of Pakistani de-recognising Amhadis as Muslims. So hamid mutates btw pro2anti-India in his posts. I am sure he;d amny head-waggers as frens (HWs are south Indians).

He's a shady character with occasional shots of brilliance. He's a fun chap.

As for head wagging, it cud be the yes-nature of south Indians who remained as model slaves to British.