Sex Education For the Next Generation

Re: # 322

those kind of jaahili pirs are a disgrace to islam and should be killed in public.

iqbal too was highly educated in the western system but what did he do in the latter stages of his life? give it all up and turn to who? jalaluddin rumi. his later collections of poetry such as zarb e kaleem are openly hostile to the western system.

read his immortal lines and weep:

khayrah na kar saka mujhe jalwa e daanish e afrang
Ke surma hai meri aankh ka khaak e Madina o Najaf!

closer to home, allama abdul aleem siddiqi, father of mawlana noorani, was a great sage and scholar, spoke 12 languages, including japanese, and debated with the greatest minds of the west such as george bernard shaw...

only the oons like u have a mental block.

btw, another of your lies is that 'mullahs and sufis denigrate western education'. the fact is that many of the graduates of the best universities of the west turn to islam precisely because of sufism. ever heard of tj winter, martin lings, gai eaton, leopold weiss, william chittick, s h nasr, hamza yusuf hanson...? all of these have probably got more WESTERN education from better universities than you have and yet they are PROUD, in your face, SUFI Muslims who don't hesitate to mention their sufism and how it is the greatest thing in the world and the potential cure for the ills of our species...see they are not slaves to the dominant paradigm. they also do not measure 'success' in purely material means.

almost every major islamic scholar in history who has made any sort of contribution to islam has also been a sufi. fact.

even shaykh ibn taymiyya--the most literal and rigid of the scholars of the hanbali muslims--and a sort of father-figure for the wahabiyyah movement of our own times was initiated into the Qadri Sufi order and refers in his works to Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani as 'shaykhuna' -- our shaykh.

oh tahmed i give up! i cannot get it into your head! tooN jaa mera veer, tuu sahih ayn teh aseeN saare ghalat aaN!

All the previous prophets also brought the message of tawheed and risalat and were muslims and all who followed them were muslimoon. islam abrogated all previous religions.
and you still haven't told me if you are a quran-only person 'or not?
thinkingstorm,
despite your mockery i actually have a very lowly opinion of my self and yet i can say that i might not be good myself but i have nisbat with those who are good.
As Sayyidina Sarkar Ghaus e Azam, Sultan al Awliya, Muhyuddin Abdal Qadir al Jilani, al-Baz al Ashab, al Hassani w'al Hussayni said,
If my mureed is not good let him not worry--for I am good!

Allahu Akbar! About this greatest of saints Khwaja GHarib Nawaz Chishti (btw dost mittar I adore the awliya of Chisht!) said himself:

'Moin' ke fida ye naam e tu shud, daryuzagar e ikraam e tu shud
ChuN Khwaja az aan ke ghulaam e tu shud, daarad talabay tasleem o raza!

And another great India saint said about Huzoor Ghaws Paak:

Ghaus e Azam darmiyaan e awliya
Chun Muhammad darmiyaan e anbiya

And the great aashiq e rasool, ala hazrat imam ahmad raza khan qadri --a great sufi and mujaddid of his era--wrote:

tujh se dar, dar se sag, aur sag se hai mujh ko nisbat...

I am not a wali, never claimed to be one, but alhamdulillah I am a proud dog of the streets of Sayyidina Ghawth al Azam Jilani al Baghdadi...:-)

That is something oons and poons like u will never understand.

BTW the first written constitution of human rights was by the Prophet himself and is called Misaq e Madina. So take your Bill of Rights and...

Also, the sufis show you the path to eternal salvation and bliss whereas, whatever the achievements of the westerners in this world, this world is only temporary and a mirage. Isa alayhisalam compared it to a dung heap. Our Prophet said the value of this dunya in the eyes of Allah is less than that of a fly...our goal is the eternal realm...the Kingdom of God as Isa alayhisalam so eloquently put it. Be in this world like a traveller only said Our Beloved Habib sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.

I'm not saying studying this world isn't important, it is, but not as imortant as safeguardin your akhirat. THAT is the core message of every Sufi!

Duniya--jahanamm!

We should discuss. another board perhaps.

As humans we have creature needs as well as spiritual needs. Both need to be addressed. Once the basic creature needs have been addressed, the spiritual needs have to be tended to, otherwise life becomes meaningless.

to be continued in another forum.,
with much respect,
thinking storm

thinkingstorm: we could discuss it later (I was switching of from chowk just now), but certainly this is an interesting question. While I agree that material well-being of itself is not enough, I also would say it is an essential condition. A man who has not eaten in a day, or who is trying to stay cool on a hot Pakistani day with electric power gone, could go into philosophical resignation, but would probably prefer food and water and shelter to philosophy. Similarly, if a nation is slave to its own generals and corrupt politicians, philosophical resignation may work, but a proper system of government would be the solution. Man does not live by bread alone, but that does not mean he can live without bread either.

Like Bill Gates said - if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like the head of a nail. Same with mullahism, sufism who are like nuts carrying hammers in a china shop in terms of the damage they have done to muslim society by denigrating the west and western education.

tahmed32

#327.

There I would disagree with you. Science is one form of progress. Spiritual evolution is another form. Sufis have contributed immensely to human growth on the non-technological front (so have hindu jogis and buddhist monks).

But we can discuss on another thread. :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

and naqsh: i am not going to fall to the level of a maulvi by responding to your "oon" rubbish in kind.

vrv #320 There is no disagreement. Science is indeed universal, as are scientific principles.

My reference to "western science" was in a different sense - i.e. in terms of contributions made to science by western civilization in the past 500 years or so. And I mentioned not just science but democratic institutions as well. This was in the context of questioning the wisdom of taking ones's world view from the perspective of a sufi or a "saint" (which has contributed insignificantly to humanity) rather than from the perspective of a "western" scientist or scholar. The best and the brightest of the world flock to US universities, not to Mecca. Those seeking a short-cut to heaven by "washing away their sins" in air-conditioned comfort flock to Mecca!!

Naqshbandi: OK, so you did include a couple of lines that were in response to my questions. I did not comment on them because those are hardly "contributions" in the same meaningful manner as the ones I mentioned (i.e. habeas corpus, separation of the judiciary, legislature and executive). More specifically:

in #317 you wrote the none sufi muslims of india i.e. the ahle hadis and deobandis were vehemently opposed to the creation of pakistan and called the qaid kafir e azam.

in other words, they were bystanders. Neither active in its creation, nor active in opposing it like the maulvis.

in #316 you if it wasn't for the sufis you and i most probably 95% of the muslims in indo-pak wouldn't have become muslims in the first place and therefore there would never have been a pakistan.

Why is being a muslim so important to you? Is God a fool that he sent so many messengers before the prophet for nothing?? This is what comes from not using your head, and treating the word of "Islamic scholars". Even many of these sufis and poets you profess to follow dont believe being a muslim is as important as you think!! Thus, I believe it was bulleh shah who wrote:

o tainu kafir akhde naiN
tooN ahu ahu kahnda ja!!

Rumi is similarly universal in his outlook. So, while I am very comfortable with being a muslim, I dont think I would have been morally or spiritually any less if I had been born in a non-muslim family. As for Pakistan the state, a state by itself is a legal entity, not a natural one. It is people, the people of Pakistan, who matter. Whether Pakistan is a success or a failure depends on the difference it has made in the lives of Pakistanis. That at this time is an open question!!

drsohail

verily, there is great mischeif in your words and smile. I shall hold steadfastly to my "almost secular" status and not join you and your band of merry agnostics and athiests.

I am but a man who knows not, but knows that he knows not, and am a student, nay a corpse, waiting to be shown the path by our living wali naqshbandi of the qadri order, may Allah grow fragarant flowers for him to tread upon. ameen.
with much respect,
thinking storm

Re: # 301
dear thinkingstorm...i am happy you are having fun...have you heard
a man who knows and knows that he knows is a leader follow him
a man who knows not but knows that he knows not is a student teach him
and
a man who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool leave him alone
i think you are number one....and when number one becomes mischievious...he becomes smart alecky....you have a creative mind...keep the creative juices flowing.... affectionately....sohail

naqsh-

this place has been sullied and is unfit for a living wali like yourself rehmatullah aleyh, may God grow fragrant flowers for you to tread upon. ameen.

As a corpse in waiting, I shall start a naqshbandi appreciation thread (may God exalt your status amongst us lowly chowkies), and discuss matters with you like the international sufi order (sufiorder.org), the prevelance of shia sufism, as well as your opinion on a can a woman be an imam and lead men in prayers?

humbly,
with much respect,
thinking storm

while we are on the subject of sufis, saints and sex ....

so, this pir sahib brings home a woman to spend the night ...... after a long night of passionate ibadat, when the woman puts on her clothes and is about to leave in the morning, she turns to pir sahib and says, "pir sahib, paisay?" (money?) ...... he looks at her with compassion and replies " ja phaliye logay, teray kolon ki paisay laaney !" (go child, why would i take money from you)

..... and then there is this other pir sahib who is making passionate love to one of his disciples ..... in the throes of passion the woman manages to raise her feet above the pir sahib's head ......... the poor woman is wrecked with remorse at this obvious insult to the great man and begs for his forgiveness ......"oh, pir sahib, please forgive me for my transgression.... what can i do to pay for my great sin " ....... the magnanimous pir consoles her and says, "sady kol aid da wee ilaj ay - kal kala kukar laay ki ain" (we have a cure for this too - when you come tomorrow, bring a black rooster)