Sex Education For the Next Generation

Re: # 362
Zara_K...
Ans: Some of the sexual disorders can be treated and you can get well...

Re: # 367 please reply to my request on mujahid_of_Allah@hotmail.co.uk (for naqashbandi)

Re: # 49 where can i get a copy of the book, to read by imam suyuti on sex, the sex manual which he wrote that is similar to shaykh nafzawi's
preferably a online coy of the book by imam suyuti on sex would be appreciated.
i have been looking for this for a long time, after i came to know of it, i have read nafzawi's but would like to read his now.

Re: # 362

Poor hubby! Now will have to pay 'maintainence' for a mistake by hiw wife!

More and more divorces are being caused by high sexual drive by the female these days. Makes you wonder what maintainence is for!

www.womensinfidelity.com

What's in a saint? if speaking with Islam in mind there is no need for a mediator between Allah & (banda) the follower, if one has a need they need to make a sincere (dua)prayer to God to help him/her overcome the situation while by my own experience in any concern Allah SWT has always answered my pleas and requests favorably.
With due regards to believers of other faiths I am not sure what are the systems of submission to God and to pray for one's needs.
It is however widely accepted in the western arenas of medicine that those with faith have a proven record of faster and better recovery rates and I am sure similarly it also applies to this segment where some men or women are not fully fit to perform in matrimony.

"While I worked in the obstetric department in a Women’s Hospital in Peshawar Pakistan I was shocked to find out that many men and women had no understanding of human physiology and did not know that ovulation took place 14 days before menstruation and that the human sperm and ovum live for only 24—48 hours and if they did not make love during those 48--96 hours they would not get pregnant. I met many infertile women who went to holy shrines to pray for children rather than obtaining medical help for their problems."
You will be even more shocked to learn that such people exist in the west too, in USA & Europe, what is the big surprise?

#362 Zara_k
I feel so sorry for you ex-husband. This is quite a common behaviour among virgin men especially when the are under performance anxiety (as Dr Sohail mentioned). This has nothing to do with ones sexual orientation. You guys should have given it more time. Marriage is not just all about sexual intercourse anyways. There is so many other ways such as oral sex that a couple can start their sexual interaction with.

I have gone through similar experience during my first marriage, which unfortunately ended up in a divorce in a month due to my performance anxiety problem.
Thankfully, I got married again and with my wife co-operation, I was able to overcome my anxiety in few months and now we have (by the grace of God) excellent sex life and three healthy children.

When my first marriage ended up in divorce, I found out that I was not alone who suffered from this anxiety. Some of my close friends and cousins also disclosed it to me that they went through similar experiences at the start of their married life.

No need to apologize.

It was an arrange marriage. He said i am the first and only girl who he has been with ever. My dad met up wih the Urologist and he told my dad that my husband is not attractive towards women. I spoke with this lady who has done PHD in gender studies, she also told me the same thing. The problem is he wouldnt admit that he has a problem. Each time we tried he made a different excuse. One day i came home from work and he said he was able to perform to himself and that is when i got to believe he really has problem. He is able to do it but just not with me. Unfortunatly i cant go back to him becuase it has been really a mess now between two families.

Re: # 360
dear zara,,,since i had moved on to the next article i did not check interactions of this article. so sorry for the delayed response.
most couples i met who did not consumate their marriage, men had performance anxiety and got better after receiving professional help.
i do not know your husband. i wonder whether he was a virgin? what were his previous sexual experiences? did you people know each other before marriage?
my suggestion would have been to see a marital therapist and get proessional help before getting divorced.
sincerely sohail

This is for Khalid Sohail.

I got married on September 1, 2007 and stayed with my husband for 10 days. We didnt have sex at all. Each time we tried, he made different excuses as to he is nervous, he doesnt know what's going with him, he is worried about other things. I finally gave up and came to my parents house. My dad said he is not normal and we have filed for divorce. I talked to so many people and discussed with so many people. Majority of the people told me, there is something wrong with him and very few people said i should have given him more time. I dont want to hurt anybody or harm anybody in anyway. Sohail what do you say about this issue? Thanks

Kaal: The only sufi that I recognize is Sufi Tabassum. :-)

Re: # 357

no.not in the islamic definition of saint.

Re: # 356
dear naqshbandi...how do you define a saint....can someone be a saint without believing in God and Religion....?
What do you say to the people who believe
Spirituality is part of humanity not part of divinity
religion is just one path to spirituality...
there are as many secular saints as religious saints in the world...
sincerely sohail

kaal,

i already gave a substantial list of sufi saints from across the whole subcontinent in one of my earlier posts.

naqsh and ts,

This has been an interesting discussion. One possible way to resolve some of the differences may be if you both of you could care to name, in your own views, the top five or ten (or whatever number of) sufis of all times who worked within the Indian subcontinent. Just off the cuff, athough feel free to change your minds after any discussion.

Naqsh bhai, if you would help us, please focus a little outside of your own specific sufi order(s). And both, please give more weightage to sufis who made a signficant difference historically/socially/and/or religiously in the lives of as many as possible. So sufi working primarily in my mohalla, no matter how beloved, brilliant, and venerated would not make the list. :)

Appreciate the help. You might find that the differences between the two of you can be substantially narrowed. And of course, the rest of us can understand things better too. Thanks in advance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB3D9SDAs3I

something to bring comfort to all sincere hearts. a modern sufi in a spiritual state..it is only 10 mins. listen!

salim, you're right.

Brother Naqshbandi,
Allow me to compliment you on your vast knowledge of Sufism and its effect on the massive conversions in India, Malayasia, and Indonesia. Clearly the message of a loving, compassionate, and peaceful Islam was eagerly embraced by so many Hindus. Too bad that we now have to suffer under Wahaboobi invasion facilitated by petrodollars. :(

Re: # 351

i agree. i think what happened between the 17th and 20th centuries with the colonisation and loss of political power to Christians throughout virtually the whole islamic world caused a social crisis in the muslim mind. the immediate reaction was to go away from our traditional ways of spirituality and try to use western methods ourselves too. it simply is not islamic methodology. gradually people are realising and returning to the traditional methods. Indeed it is now termed Traditional Islam (with capitals!) by Western scholars of Islam in the West. The Sufis who had always been at the heart of islamic society suffered the most by the reaction to colonisation and now slowly the people are returning to it. :-)

Re: # 345

Naqshbandi Sahib:

Thank you for this write up. I will try to locate the books you mentioned on amazon.com and buy them to read and my own library.

I have been a student of change in human societies, irrespetive of any religious thought, there is a time proven method / strategy to bring these changes. Right now a friend of mine introduced me to a new book written by a prominent Military Scientist about Mohammad as the one of the finest Generals of all time. It is a very fascinating book, as it analyzes the first battles that he personally led, and also later he defined the military strategy for others to follow. Thus he created an organization for succession of military power to ensure success in promoting ideology of Islam. I also share your views that almost 300 millions cannot be converted through sole power of sword. There must be economic (don't know who) and social (sufis) incentives and reasons for this conversion.

Somehow my mind tells me that the answers to what ails Islamic countries is understanding the peaceful methods of changes that accompanied it into South Asia. Just as the changes christian missionaries brought in Africa are more permanent than the military changes of the colonials. Peaceful means almost always prevail and are more permanent.

but we cannot be held responsible for others' ignorance then. Especially if it comes from Muslims!

http://www.makkahmasjid.co.uk/events/the_radical_middle_way_pictures/Habib_Ali.j pg

here is a modern day direct descendent of the Prophet from the blessed valley of Hadramawt (Yemen) from where many of the saints who came to India originated (including I believe the famous Bangladeshi saint from Sylhet...)

Naqshbandi:

"Barelvis do NOT 'worship' shrines--only show tazeem to the sahib-e-mazaar."

I know that the distinction between Prastish and Tazeem is critical in Islam, but for most people:

If it looks like a duck, feels like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is worship. :-)

Syed S M Rizvi I believe has written a two or three volume book on the History of Sufis of South Asia. It is available in any good library.

Re: # 342

in short your answer is 'yes'. the earliest sufis came with the entourages of the earliest conquerors...but to conquer hearts instead! it also depends on the part of the subcontinent you are talking about. in western india, for example, along the coast,it was sufi traders and preachers from yemen--specifically the hadramawt valley--who spread islam via their sufic example. these same hadramawti sufis--who are from the family of the Prophet--then would travel on to malaysia and indonesia and are almost solely repsonsible for the conversion to islam of those archipelagos! that is why in western india, and in indonesia and malaysia the sunni muslims follow the shafi' school of thought as opposed to most muslims of the subcontinent who follow the hanafi school. the rest of india and pakistan was converted primarily by sufis from central asia, iraq, and iran who followed the chishti, qadri and naqshbandi orders. the chishtiyyah especially took hold of the imagination of the locals. one reason was that hazrat muinuddin hassan chishti saw that the indian local people were very addicted to music and preached the message of islam via sama' -- i.e. qawwali although by removing from the local music any unislamic elements. of course the biggest cause for the conversion of millions at their hands was the superior moral and ethical character of these great saints themselves. the spiritual battles of khwaja gharib nawaz with the head hindu spiritual leader are well recounted in sufi books of lore. the hindu became his mureed! it is said in sufi circles that khwaja gharib nawaz himself converted 90 lakhs of hindus to islam! he was related to ghaws al azam islam who sent him to india to preach...

in sindh too even with muhammad ibn qasim early sufis must have travelled and settled and made converts. the same is true with mahmud of ghazna and others. they all had sufi buzurgs in their retinues who would pray for their military victory as well as convert the masses.

it is a pattern seen time and again: though the military conquerors/kings were able to conquer the land of hindustan it was always the sufis who conquered the hearts of people and converted them to islam via personal example and, if needed, miracles. even in the early stages of islamic expansion after the Messenger it is a fact that though the Muslim Arab armies conquered vast lands the Muslims never forced the people to convert to islam and for long periods of time although they were the rulers the muslims remained a minority over those whom they ruled. it was the moral characteristics of the holy men which drew people. of course in the time of the rightly guided caliphs they combined sainthood with political leadership. that is why they are unique. :-)

hope that helps anil.

Some westerners (and some misinformed people way out East) charge that Islam was spread by the sword. Some claim that taxes are responsible for the numbers of Muslims. Let there be no mistake about it :) Islam was spread through sex with conviction (or without it).

Despite what the Wahaboobis preach nowadays, in Islam, abstinence is a sin.

Re: # 338

Naqshbandi Sahib:

Will you consider writing an essay on Sufi Movement in South Asia. How did they fit the social fabric? Who were early followers? Were they, like christian missionaries in Africa, were essential part of the change that Islam brought in India?

#327 Posted by tahmed32 on September 11, 2007 7:53:55 am

Well said.

Naqsh,

your jah o jalaal has convinced me! I shall take to the streets right now and kill the false sufis. Should I start in the US or Pakistan? May your greatness be exalted on chowk, may your fragarance never be duplicated. Ameen.

I am like a humble corpse, waiting for guidance, o learned and fragarant one.
with much respect,
thinking storm

errors in the article: Barelvis do NOT 'worship' shrines--only show tazeem to the sahib-e-mazaar.

The last line is inexplicable. That person should get his head checked unless he said it in a state of spiritual intoxication [haal].

Then again it is probably a mistranslation.
The Telegraph is notoriously right-wing--a bit like Fox News!
A large pinch of salt is needed...

a great article from today's Telegraph:

Whirling dervishes take on the Taliban

By Isambard Wilkinson in Sehwan
Last Updated: 1:36am BST 09/09/2007

Pakistanis have turned to prayer, hashish and frenzied dancing in an attempt to overcome their twin troubles; the Taliban and internal political turmoil.

Whirling dervishes
The frenzied festival for the Sufi saint Lal Shahbaz Qalandar

More than half a million pilgrims flocked to Sehwan in Sindh for a festival for one of Pakistan's chief Sufi saints, Lal Shahbaz Qalandar, last week. "It is better than disco. If I do not come here, I do not feel right," said Idrees Rehman, a bus driver, as the festival and its whirling dervish dhammal dances ended yesterday.

"Everyone thinks Musharraf is a dictator. Qalandar will deal with him," added the man as he raved to the hypnotic dohl drums with his friends, fruit sellers, from Gujrat in northern Punjab.

Qalandar - whose name is synonymous in Pakistan with both political upheaval and tolerance - has a particular aptness as the president, Gen Pervez Musharraf, struggles to extend his tenure amid rising opposition and pro-Taliban violence.

The slogan "Dama dam mast Qalandar", which roughly translates as "endless inspired intoxication for Qalandar" has entered Pakistan's political lexicon. It denotes unrestrained agitation which can be mobilised either in support for an ally or against an enemy.
advertisement

In a room smelling sweet with incense and petals, Ahmed Bhutto, who called himself a physics professor, said: "We are the anti-Taliban force. We stand for love, tolerance and the great infinity."

The shrine, not far from the ancestral stronghold of exiled former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, is patronised by the Bhutto clan, who sit atop a hierarchy of Pirs, hereditary saints who hold significant power in politics in rural southern Punjab and Sind. The festival drives to the heart of Pakistan's battle for souls. Shia, Sunni, Hindu, Sikh and Christian all worship at the shrine that is a symbol of tolerance.

In general terms, the worship of shrines is practised by most of Pakistan's Sunni Muslims, known as Barelvis.

But this non-violent form is anathema to the doctrinaire Deobandi school of Islam, practised by most conservative Pushtuns from North West Frontier Province, pro-Taliban militants and jihadis.

Gen Musharraf vaguely backs the Barelvis as part of his homespun canon of "enlightened moderation". But over the years extremist Deobandi Sunni groups - led by leader of the opposition and "godfather of the Taliban" Fezlur Rehman - have violently taken over Barelvi shrines to steal land and appropriate religious influence.

"I am not a Shia or a Sunni. I am a Qalandri," said Mr Bhutto's boss, Pir Syed Bariyal Shah Subswari, a moustachioed man with turquoise rings on all his fingers.

His rambling theological digression, fuelled with Qalandar spirit, roamed far from strict interpretations of Islam. "Qalandar is our god," he yelled to his disciples.

Re: # 322

those kind of jaahili pirs are a disgrace to islam and should be killed in public.

iqbal too was highly educated in the western system but what did he do in the latter stages of his life? give it all up and turn to who? jalaluddin rumi. his later collections of poetry such as zarb e kaleem are openly hostile to the western system.

read his immortal lines and weep:

khayrah na kar saka mujhe jalwa e daanish e afrang
Ke surma hai meri aankh ka khaak e Madina o Najaf!

closer to home, allama abdul aleem siddiqi, father of mawlana noorani, was a great sage and scholar, spoke 12 languages, including japanese, and debated with the greatest minds of the west such as george bernard shaw...

only the oons like u have a mental block.

btw, another of your lies is that 'mullahs and sufis denigrate western education'. the fact is that many of the graduates of the best universities of the west turn to islam precisely because of sufism. ever heard of tj winter, martin lings, gai eaton, leopold weiss, william chittick, s h nasr, hamza yusuf hanson...? all of these have probably got more WESTERN education from better universities than you have and yet they are PROUD, in your face, SUFI Muslims who don't hesitate to mention their sufism and how it is the greatest thing in the world and the potential cure for the ills of our species...see they are not slaves to the dominant paradigm. they also do not measure 'success' in purely material means.

almost every major islamic scholar in history who has made any sort of contribution to islam has also been a sufi. fact.

even shaykh ibn taymiyya--the most literal and rigid of the scholars of the hanbali muslims--and a sort of father-figure for the wahabiyyah movement of our own times was initiated into the Qadri Sufi order and refers in his works to Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani as 'shaykhuna' -- our shaykh.

oh tahmed i give up! i cannot get it into your head! tooN jaa mera veer, tuu sahih ayn teh aseeN saare ghalat aaN!

All the previous prophets also brought the message of tawheed and risalat and were muslims and all who followed them were muslimoon. islam abrogated all previous religions.
and you still haven't told me if you are a quran-only person 'or not?
thinkingstorm,
despite your mockery i actually have a very lowly opinion of my self and yet i can say that i might not be good myself but i have nisbat with those who are good.
As Sayyidina Sarkar Ghaus e Azam, Sultan al Awliya, Muhyuddin Abdal Qadir al Jilani, al-Baz al Ashab, al Hassani w'al Hussayni said,
If my mureed is not good let him not worry--for I am good!

Allahu Akbar! About this greatest of saints Khwaja GHarib Nawaz Chishti (btw dost mittar I adore the awliya of Chisht!) said himself:

'Moin' ke fida ye naam e tu shud, daryuzagar e ikraam e tu shud
ChuN Khwaja az aan ke ghulaam e tu shud, daarad talabay tasleem o raza!

And another great India saint said about Huzoor Ghaws Paak:

Ghaus e Azam darmiyaan e awliya
Chun Muhammad darmiyaan e anbiya

And the great aashiq e rasool, ala hazrat imam ahmad raza khan qadri --a great sufi and mujaddid of his era--wrote:

tujh se dar, dar se sag, aur sag se hai mujh ko nisbat...

I am not a wali, never claimed to be one, but alhamdulillah I am a proud dog of the streets of Sayyidina Ghawth al Azam Jilani al Baghdadi...:-)

That is something oons and poons like u will never understand.

BTW the first written constitution of human rights was by the Prophet himself and is called Misaq e Madina. So take your Bill of Rights and...

Also, the sufis show you the path to eternal salvation and bliss whereas, whatever the achievements of the westerners in this world, this world is only temporary and a mirage. Isa alayhisalam compared it to a dung heap. Our Prophet said the value of this dunya in the eyes of Allah is less than that of a fly...our goal is the eternal realm...the Kingdom of God as Isa alayhisalam so eloquently put it. Be in this world like a traveller only said Our Beloved Habib sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.

I'm not saying studying this world isn't important, it is, but not as imortant as safeguardin your akhirat. THAT is the core message of every Sufi!

Duniya--jahanamm!

We should discuss. another board perhaps.

As humans we have creature needs as well as spiritual needs. Both need to be addressed. Once the basic creature needs have been addressed, the spiritual needs have to be tended to, otherwise life becomes meaningless.

to be continued in another forum.,
with much respect,
thinking storm

thinkingstorm: we could discuss it later (I was switching of from chowk just now), but certainly this is an interesting question. While I agree that material well-being of itself is not enough, I also would say it is an essential condition. A man who has not eaten in a day, or who is trying to stay cool on a hot Pakistani day with electric power gone, could go into philosophical resignation, but would probably prefer food and water and shelter to philosophy. Similarly, if a nation is slave to its own generals and corrupt politicians, philosophical resignation may work, but a proper system of government would be the solution. Man does not live by bread alone, but that does not mean he can live without bread either.

Like Bill Gates said - if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like the head of a nail. Same with mullahism, sufism who are like nuts carrying hammers in a china shop in terms of the damage they have done to muslim society by denigrating the west and western education.

tahmed32

#327.

There I would disagree with you. Science is one form of progress. Spiritual evolution is another form. Sufis have contributed immensely to human growth on the non-technological front (so have hindu jogis and buddhist monks).

But we can discuss on another thread. :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

and naqsh: i am not going to fall to the level of a maulvi by responding to your "oon" rubbish in kind.

vrv #320 There is no disagreement. Science is indeed universal, as are scientific principles.

My reference to "western science" was in a different sense - i.e. in terms of contributions made to science by western civilization in the past 500 years or so. And I mentioned not just science but democratic institutions as well. This was in the context of questioning the wisdom of taking ones's world view from the perspective of a sufi or a "saint" (which has contributed insignificantly to humanity) rather than from the perspective of a "western" scientist or scholar. The best and the brightest of the world flock to US universities, not to Mecca. Those seeking a short-cut to heaven by "washing away their sins" in air-conditioned comfort flock to Mecca!!

Naqshbandi: OK, so you did include a couple of lines that were in response to my questions. I did not comment on them because those are hardly "contributions" in the same meaningful manner as the ones I mentioned (i.e. habeas corpus, separation of the judiciary, legislature and executive). More specifically:

in #317 you wrote the none sufi muslims of india i.e. the ahle hadis and deobandis were vehemently opposed to the creation of pakistan and called the qaid kafir e azam.

in other words, they were bystanders. Neither active in its creation, nor active in opposing it like the maulvis.

in #316 you if it wasn't for the sufis you and i most probably 95% of the muslims in indo-pak wouldn't have become muslims in the first place and therefore there would never have been a pakistan.

Why is being a muslim so important to you? Is God a fool that he sent so many messengers before the prophet for nothing?? This is what comes from not using your head, and treating the word of "Islamic scholars". Even many of these sufis and poets you profess to follow dont believe being a muslim is as important as you think!! Thus, I believe it was bulleh shah who wrote:

o tainu kafir akhde naiN
tooN ahu ahu kahnda ja!!

Rumi is similarly universal in his outlook. So, while I am very comfortable with being a muslim, I dont think I would have been morally or spiritually any less if I had been born in a non-muslim family. As for Pakistan the state, a state by itself is a legal entity, not a natural one. It is people, the people of Pakistan, who matter. Whether Pakistan is a success or a failure depends on the difference it has made in the lives of Pakistanis. That at this time is an open question!!

drsohail

verily, there is great mischeif in your words and smile. I shall hold steadfastly to my "almost secular" status and not join you and your band of merry agnostics and athiests.

I am but a man who knows not, but knows that he knows not, and am a student, nay a corpse, waiting to be shown the path by our living wali naqshbandi of the qadri order, may Allah grow fragarant flowers for him to tread upon. ameen.
with much respect,
thinking storm

Re: # 301
dear thinkingstorm...i am happy you are having fun...have you heard
a man who knows and knows that he knows is a leader follow him
a man who knows not but knows that he knows not is a student teach him
and
a man who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool leave him alone
i think you are number one....and when number one becomes mischievious...he becomes smart alecky....you have a creative mind...keep the creative juices flowing.... affectionately....sohail

naqsh-

this place has been sullied and is unfit for a living wali like yourself rehmatullah aleyh, may God grow fragrant flowers for you to tread upon. ameen.

As a corpse in waiting, I shall start a naqshbandi appreciation thread (may God exalt your status amongst us lowly chowkies), and discuss matters with you like the international sufi order (sufiorder.org), the prevelance of shia sufism, as well as your opinion on a can a woman be an imam and lead men in prayers?

humbly,
with much respect,
thinking storm

while we are on the subject of sufis, saints and sex ....

so, this pir sahib brings home a woman to spend the night ...... after a long night of passionate ibadat, when the woman puts on her clothes and is about to leave in the morning, she turns to pir sahib and says, "pir sahib, paisay?" (money?) ...... he looks at her with compassion and replies " ja phaliye logay, teray kolon ki paisay laaney !" (go child, why would i take money from you)

..... and then there is this other pir sahib who is making passionate love to one of his disciples ..... in the throes of passion the woman manages to raise her feet above the pir sahib's head ......... the poor woman is wrecked with remorse at this obvious insult to the great man and begs for his forgiveness ......"oh, pir sahib, please forgive me for my transgression.... what can i do to pay for my great sin " ....... the magnanimous pir consoles her and says, "sady kol aid da wee ilaj ay - kal kala kukar laay ki ain" (we have a cure for this too - when you come tomorrow, bring a black rooster)

hamidm#302:

"naqshbandi,

.... you are my favourite muslim on this site! .."

Mine too! To me, he represents pure, unshakable faith and that, to me, is religion at its best. He is very intelligent and is also willing to learn, as is evident from the significant change in his attitude towards political islam.

Now, only if he could follow the Chishtis of Ganga-Jamuna and the Shahs of Jhelum-Chenab and spare some of his sufi love for the poor hindus also, that would be wonderful.

Mr. Ahmed,

I am not commenting on ur post (311) but I have disagreemnt with ur phrase 'western sciences'.

(Interlude: It's like somebody saying Hindu/Muslim liberals. No such thing is real. One is a liberal or not.)

Science is universal. Hope u undrstand my disagreement with ur 'western sciences'.

316, 317 were direct answers to your questions.
now answer my q: are you a quraniyoon?

naqshbandi: I asked you some simple questions in #311 that have nothing to do with you personally or me personally. You did not have an answer for them, and instead wrote 3-4 posts berating me personally. So, I can only conclude that you dont have an answer to those questions, and are determined to stay in the narrow-rut you are stuck in. Carry on.... :-)

even more specifically--and i should write an article on this--the none sufi muslims of india i.e. the ahle hadis and deobandis were vehemently opposed to the creation of pakistan and called the qaid kafir e azam. it was only through the support which the sufi pirs of panjab and throughout united india gave to the qaid that the muslim masses voted for pakistan. especially important was the role of pir sayyid jamaat ali shah.this is now well documented. becoz 90% of muslims at that time were sufi-orientatated barelvis and because the barelvi pirs overwhelmingly were in favour of pakistan you got your pakistan.

don;t believe me read arthur beuhler's work on the rise of the mediating sufi shaykh and the pakistan movement and also the work of usha sanyaal.

what have the sufis done for pakistan? if it wasn't for the sufis you and i most probably 95% of the muslims in indo-pak wouldn't have become muslims in the first place and therefore there would never have been a pakistan.

btw all of the literature of panjab which is worth reading was written by sufis. that is something for a start. they gave you your religion.

otherwise you'd still be tota raam and not tahmad...

serious question to tahmed: are you a qur'aniyoon? i.e. those people who only accept the quran and deny the validity of hadith in toto.

a simple yes or no will do.

you know tahmed, people would take you more seriously if you actually came across as knowing something about that which you profess.
you are arrogant enough to believe that you have discovered the real meaning of the koran which somehow has eluded the great muslims of the past--quranic scholars, ulama, jurists, sufis--and only you have 'got' it. in short, like sir 'syed' ahmad khan you are in thrall to all things western and try to see in the koran affirmation of whatever is en vogue in the west. in other words, you're clueless.

yes, the west has made great contributions to human learning and noone can deny that--noone has!--but your attitude is unique only to you on chowk--with no authority to back it at all--even your knowledge of the quran is laughable--and yet like a broken drum you've been parroting the same thing on chowk for as long as i can remember.

look, i am not buying it okay so give it a rest.

a lot of these achievements were discovered independently by muslim thinkers...

reading ghazali will make you understand your deen properly, take out of the quagmire of heresy in which you are currently mired and make you more intelligent since he tackled problems in human philosophy and tautology centuries before people like kant and others. above all, he discovered the only way to certainty.

hamidm #309 My respect for the Quran has the same basis as my respect for western thinkers as discussed in #311 e.g. There is nothing silly about a book that, regardless of what you attribute its inspiration to be, that has had so much influence in human history.

Naqshbandi: Glad you understand my first point.

On the question of western sciences, thanks for pointing out that you are well versed in them. You must then understand the significance of these today.

To take one example: it is western thinkers and doers who laid the foundations for democratic institutions like parliaments, separation of powers of the judiciary, legislature, executive. Western thinkers and doers who implemented the concept of basic rights and human dignity as it is practiced today - starting with the Glorious Revolution of 1688 (which introduced the Bill of Rights in UK) and continuing with the American Revolution (which introduced the Bill of Rights in the US), and which provided the basis on which the fight for dignity of the Pakistani people is being fought today (i.e. the Chief Justice position as co-equal with the Chief Executive constitutionally, and his challenge to "disappearances" is based on the western notion of "habeas corpus").

What have the sufis done to contribute anything of similar relevance to Pakistan today? Why should I as a Pakistani not spend my time reading, e.g. de Tocqueville's admirable book on "Democracy in America" that provides insights into why the American Revolution succeeded and the French Revolution failed in introducing a democratic society, instead of al-Ghazali? What has al-Ghazali to say that will help me become a more insightful or knowledgeable person in the way de Tocqueville has?

a parable:
one day christ the son of mary alayhisalam was walking when he came across a young man tending a beautiful garden and dressed in beautiful garms. When the young man saw Sayyidina Isa alayhisalam he asked Jesus to pray that God grant him His love. You will not be able to handle it said Jesus. The boy insisted so Christ prayed. Some time later Jesus walked by the same garden and saw it was in a mess, weeds growing everywhere. THe young man was in a terrible state, clothes torn, dirty, unwashed, completely oblivious to the world. "See', said the Messiah, "I told you you will not be able to handle the love of God. And this was only an atom's worth!"

Not every vessel has the capacity to hold the love of Allah! It is the highest calling of mankind and thus the Sufis are the Elite of the Elite!
I would recommend all to read two books: Tadhkirat al Awliya by Attar and Data Ganj Bakhshi Ali Hijwiri's Kashf al Mahjub.

Re: # 306

tahmed,

..... oh puleeese ! .... get off your high camel ......... as far as i can tell, your islam and urstruly's islam are two sides of the same wahabi coin - your silly koran on one side and his silly hadiths on the other ........

....... leave poor naqshbandi alone - he is a breath of fresh air and, as i said before, if more muslims were like him we wouldn't be in the mess we find ourselves and would be giving the hare krishnas and dancing bears a run for their money .....

...... and don't underestimate our 'khawateen' - it just shows your ignorance of women .........

Re: # 305

hamidm,

no, none of the great authentic sufis ever used drugs or said it was okay to do so! why? because intoxicants are haram in islam. period. the reality is that they had access to a much more potent 'drug' than anything we can imagine: real and total ishq of Allah. spiritual intoxication is far more potent than any physical intoxicant. how 'high' does one feel in the first throes of sensual love of a female? well imagine that multiplied by an infinite factor and you might get an inkling of the state of bliss the gnostics of Allah are in.

I am a sinful and spiritually sick person who is a disgrace to sufism but i was occassionally been blessed with one or two spiritual experiences. i can honestly say with hand on heart that that experience was much much more intensely pleasurable than even the best orgasm.

tahmed mian,
you are right at one level that i shouldn't speak like that i.e. that frankly with anyone. point taken and noted. but aren't you assuming that i HAVEN'T read as widely on western sciences, history of civilisation, other cultures, natural sciences, philosophy etc. You obviously do not know me if that is what you think. Remember, professionally I am a scientist and, without boasting, educated in one of the best education systems and institutes in the western world. my friend, in short, i am far more widely read than you imagine.

naqshbandi #302 Thanks for explaining where you were coming from when you wrote that to the female poster, i.e. as you say, but if a woman asked me about it like mrs scout did so blatantly--then why should i be coy? I had anticipated this response, and that is why I wrote: "Laanat ho in "ulema" per jin ki perwarish main yeh bhai naqshbandki kisi behanay bhi aik khaatoon ko yeh sab kooch likh sakta hai!! " That is, there is no excuse for addressing a female poster in this manner, including the one you provide. Period.

On the other issue, granted you have read up a lot more on sufism, and your knowledge there (like all knowledge) is worthy of respect. I have read Rumi and enjoyed his beautiful poetry, and look up bulleh shah sometimes who is also a wonderful writer. I prefer, however, to spend my reading time with broader set of books - books that increase my understanding of where we are all coming from (i.e. history of the universe, of earth, of mankind), of creation (i.e. the various natural sciences). That is my reason for not persuing the links you provided - actually, I didnt even notice them till you mentioned them now, given that I normally avoid following links and prefer to focus on what a poster himself/herself has to say.

My recommendation for broadening your area of study is simple - you will get a much better appreciation of where sufis and "islamic aalims" stand with respect to the much broader story of human development.

Indeed, if you are to study muslim scholars - I would suggest you should focus on those that contributed to the greatness of muslim civilization, and with all due respect sufis and others concerned with the spiritual realm are only a subset of these scholars. Look at muslim scholars who who themselves did exactly what I recommend above - respected the contributions of other cultures and learnt from them, whether ancient Greek, or Indian, or Chinese. And then you will understand why individuals represented by echoboom on chowk are so totally wrong when they discourage respect for Western culture and paint it in negative colors while ignoring the positive. These are the real enemies of the muslim people, the ones responsible for keeping them backwards by berating those who appreciate western education (like Sir Syed Ahmed Khan).

Re: # 302

naqshbandi,

.... you are my favourite muslim on this site! ...

...... by the way, did any of these great sufis use drugs (or alcohol) to get closer to god, or is it just the malangs at bari imam who pound out the finest bhang accompanied by the jhankar of gunghroos and chants of 'allah hoo' ? ......... based on personal experience, i can say with some authority that drugs are a more effective instrument for discovering god than incessant prayer ....... and, to stay on the subject at hand, they can also enhance sexual pleasure if used properly .........

and i haven't dissed shias--yes only those ghuluww shias who are extremists in their aqaid. it is something no sufi would ever do right mr. thinkingstorm? i suggest you go and do some reading. for example read ghawth al azam's ghunyaat at-taalibeen...

yes, in daily life sunnis sufis and shias have generally had a 'even though we disagree with your aqaid we'll live and let live' kind of attitude even to this day.

btw dr.sohail thanks for the nice words but i encourage you to read the works of imam ghazali...

tahmed--i agree in reality i wouldnt speak so brazenly about oral sex to a woman. but if a woman asked me about it like mrs scout did so blatantly--then why should i be coy? if one wants to be feminist and modern and westernised then one has to expect to be treated in the same way as western guys speak to western women about sexuality. despite that i still tried to make my point in a joking manner pretending to speak like a stereotypical chinaman and use (not very subtle) metaphors for the act. i could have said just get your man to eat you out or go down on you --those are the common terms where in my culture where i grew up but i didn't. you cannot want to be all 'forward' and secularoon and kanjaroon like and then expect to be treated like a mashriqi larki with traditional values. still, if my brazenness offended anyone i am sorry. i would refer the young maidan to the writings of anais nin...

---------

i actually don't cuss very much at all--read my posts on chowk. people like you sometimes get on my nerves because you talk about something you do not know anything about. look i am ignorant about many subjects--economics for exaMPLE--but not tassawuf--i have grown up in a sufi household and studied it actively for the past 20 years so i can say it is something i am pretty well aware of. your universalist sufi type of hogwash argument is nothing new. even western academics no longer hold on to the beliefs you have about sufism. you didn't even read the links i gave you. which is why i stopped interacting with you. anyone who seriously thinks al ghazali was only a jurist and not a brilliant sufi is not worth talking to seriously on this matter.

teshah,

that is the poetry of a sufi saint in the state of spiritual annihilation, fana and not meant literally. in his love for God he has forgottoen everything else, even himself and his identity. it doesn't mean he is not a muslim anymore.

dr. sohail

happy? 301.

*grins and smiles all around*
with much respect,
thinking storm

Re: # 296

tahmed,

....you might disagree with naqshbandi's presentation of his argument, but you cannot disagree with his basic premise about oral sex ..... you know, he is right - ask dr sohail .... better yet, ask any woman .........

..... actually, if all muslims were like naqshbandi the world would be a better (and safer) place ..... if i ever decide to revert back to islam i will join his order which, i am sure, has a lot of very happy women ..........

Re: # 263

DM

See what Bulle Shah says about himself:

"Nah mein momin wich maseetaan
Nah mein wich kufar diaan reetaan
Nah mein paakaan wich paleetaan
Nah mein Moosa nah Firoun
Bulleyaa ki jaanan mein koun"

Regards
Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told.
Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right."

dear dr.sohail.

I am also interested in knowing, from a psychological point of view, when is a sense of humor considered to be smart-alecky?
with much respect,
thinking storm

Dr sohail.

I see your hidden attempt to move the post count to cross the 300 posts threshold.

Firstly, naqsh does not really have a gentle nature. He cusses a lot. He has ranted against shias (which no sufi in his right mind would do)

Secondly, he is of a fundamentalist mullah bent and has been for the past long while spouting fundamentalist lore dressed up as sufism on chowk. He has met an opponent now. I dispute his claims. In fact, I have given proof where he asked, and all he comes back with is "these are not sufis" and other false logics.

thirdly, he is misguided, but his intentions may be good. I fear, he suffers in the intellect department, however, and some mullahs are taking advantage of him, like they are of so many others in England.

fourthly, dear dr.sohail, as much as you run from religion, it will chase you everywhere :). On the other hand, thankfully, you have provided me two monikers that I am now using: I have become an almost secular muslim with a keen interest in tantra.

fifthly, religion is sex. You can quote me in one of your books. So in a sense, we have been talking about it all this time.

grins.
with much respect,
thinking storm

drsohail: granted naqshbandi is a gentle soul ... most of the time. Let me however quote something he wrote that no "gentle soul" (or even "gentleman") would ever say to a female poster: if you want your man to have a earth-shattering orgasm try to stimulate the....
When I jokingly tried to bring this to naqsh's attention, he thought what he said was really amusing and wrote:
to miss scout: confucius say if man want woman make honey from her flower he practise wushu of tongue on her holiest of holies. it also help if he good with many languages if he want be good cunning linguist.

statistics actually show that women are 30% more likely to have an orgasm with cunnilingus than penetration alone.

Granted the female poster had joked about something sexual, but is this what all naqsh's training from "sufis" and "saints" has taught him about how to behave before females??

Laanat ho in "ulema" per jin ki perwarish main yeh bhai naqshbandki kisi behanay bhi aik khaatoon ko yeh sab kooch likh sakta hai!!

So, Dr. Sohail sahib, with all due respect you are totally out of line with your post

Re: # 293
dear thinkingstorm...i like your sense of humour...honestly speaking you have been unfair to naqsh sahib and took advantage of his gentle nature....i like your smartness but sometines you become smartaleky....you write
with much respect....
but not act on it....i am not a nasih....it is just a friendly comment....now you are in the doghouse...but you seem sorry...so i am hopeful that your prayers will be answered and naqsh sahib will forgive you....but i am afraid you might do that again sometime and he being nice might bite your bait again....
why do you think the discussion was so passionate and stormy but moved from sexuality to spirituality?
affectionately sohail

Re: # 289

no i have never said that. ever.

Oye Naqshi-

Unfortunately, I am given to bad manners, like the salutation above. I fear I have fallen in your bad graces. Since you are a living wali ullah rahmatulla. I will ask you something, then you can pass it along to Allah, okay? (but no peeking in the message)

=========
Please Allah, make Naqsh answer my retorts. I have shown the error in his reasoning on the shia and sufi thing, and the mulla and sufi thing, but he listens not. Since he is a wali and all, please whoop some sense into him. Thank you.

=========
Thanks Naqshi.
with much respect,
thinking storm

dr. sohail

meena is most likely one of our female imposter guys. I doubt meena would jump into a forum like this as a total newbie :)

smiles right back at ya!
with much respect,
thinking storm

Re: # 288
dear meena 22...thanks and welcome...sohail

naqshbandi: How about Edhi? Would you include him in the Saint Register?

Re: # 286

Naqshbandi sahib:

"...a great saint of Allah....."

Did you not say elsewhere that there are no saints of Allah?

thanks for a nice article...

... and my friend VRV's journey is still only halfway ...

of course i do...i said etc. because it is impossible to remember all of them. Shah Hussain was a great saint of Allah!

Naqash, i noticed your list of Punjabi sufis don;t have Shah Hussein's name. do you consider him Muslim sufi or not?

javaab e jaahilaan khamushi baashad.

#8 Cliftonbridge {"Also the idea of sexual 'sin" or dirtyness isnt as prevalent in muslim societies as catholic ones. Sex is supposed to be enjoyable by muslim thought and both men and women have a right to expect a good time from each other....you just have to be married first :) "}

What an accurately wonderful statement! Yes, Christianity, from its obsession with celibacy and banishment of unwanted women to nunneries, has many more hangups about sex. Under Islam, it is every human being's right to enjoy sex. Where did we go wrong? It's a long and painful transformation from lusty harems to same same prem in caves with occasional fatwas issued via videotape or DVDs.

Naqsh-

I shall take pity on you. You are not fun to pick on. You are an intellectual midget and not yet well versed in reasoning or sarcasm for that matter.

For a sufi, you sure have a motor mouth. Telling our hindu brothers to fuk off and stick things up thier asses etc :).

I wonder which silsila teaches that?

with much respect,
thinking storm

All of them who are real Sufis accepted as such by the Ummah. Just in the Panjab--since the number is 100s of thousands all over the world--we have Baba Bulleh Shah, Baba Waris Shah, Shaykh Ali Hijwiri Data Ganj Bakhsh, Shaykh Fariduddin Ganj e Shakr, Hazrat Sultan Bahu Qadri, Mian Muhammad Bakhsh, Pir Sayyid Mihr Ali Shah Golrawi, Pir Sayyid Jama'at Ali Shah, Shaykh Bahauddin Zakarriyah Multani..
countless numbers...
And in the Subcontinent you have the great Chishti buzurgs such as Hazrat Muinuddin Hasan Chishti Sanjari,Shaykh Nizamuddin Awliya, Hazrat Qutbuddin Bakhtiyaar Kaki, Hazrat Chiragh Dihlavi, Hazrat Miyan Mir, Hazrat Gesudaraaz, Hazrat Ghawth Gwaliyari, Shaykh Shahbaz Qalandar, Hazrat Bu Ali Qalandar, Imam e Rabbani Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi, Shaykh Muhammad Masum, Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmad Riza Khan Qadri, Shaykh Mustafa Raza Khan Qadri, Hazrat Abdul Aleem Siddiqi, and many many others...

The sultan of them all is Ghawth al Azam Shaykh Abd al Qadir al Jilani al-Baghdadi al Hassani w'al Hussayni radhi Allahu anhu whose blessed tomb lies in the Jilaniyya district of Baghdad and is, to quote Martin Lings, the most visited shrine in the Muslim world after those of the Prophet and his family members...

naqshie

your hooked arm of reason is showing. You can't dance and weave like Brittany when confronted.

Give you one example you said. I did. Nope they are not sufis you claim.

Shias don't have sufism. I busted that chestnut. And still you weave and dance like a bald headed brittany.

Now you are using false logic. You are showing me Rumi as an example that all sufis are mullas. ????? Just because Rumi, a sufi, was a sharia scholar, it does not mean ALL sufis are.

Look back at the link I posted sufiorder.com. The lineage is from the 4 prominent silsilas in India.

Nope. Not MULLAS.

In fact Islam in India was not spread by mullas. The big influence were sufis who sang and danced, and used parables that included hindu mythology. Yessir. Not mulla at all.

Finally I present for Naqsh a verse from Bulley Shah (a fakir).

Mulla chudd dey ilm kitaban da
Tainay chaya iee bar azaban da
Kar wazu jog sharaban da
tairay andar bahar paleeti hai

assan ishq namaz jadoon neeti hai
assan bhul gai magar maseeti hai
with much respect,
thinking storm

naqsh: and the hell with your "Islamic scholars". What did they do to promote respect for the common man, to develop science and technology whose fruits you take for granted and without which you would be to busy seeking your next meal to worry about sufism? Nothing. Not one damned thing.

Naqsh: So, you followed the path of the sufis, and it led you all the way to UK?

BTW if you read any serious academic biography of Rumi (e.g. the one by Afzal Ahmed or one by Schimmel, for example) you will see that for the first 40 years or so of his life Jalaluddin Rumi was reknowned as the greatest Islamic scholar--i.e. mullah--in his area at that time. As was Hasan of Basra, Junayd of Baghdad, even Husayn ibn Mansur al Hallaj was a great scholar.

Whoopsie daisy.

Naqsh, please give us a list of sufis approved by you.

Much appreciated
with much respect,
thinking storm

should have said who have disregard for the shariah..

Sufism and Shari`ah, from Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani


Some facts about Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani

* He was born in 470 AH / 1077-8 CE, in Gilan, in present-day Iran.
* He left this life in 561 AH / 1166 CE, in Baghdad, in present-day Iraq.
* He was of the family of the Prophet (s.a.w.), having been descended from the Prophet (s.a.w.) on both his father's side and his mother's side.
* He was a scholar who taught the Hanbali madhhab.

Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani said:

Anyone who does not follow the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), taking his Law [shari`a] in one hand and the Book that was revealed to him in the other hand, and who does not attain to by his path [tariq] to Allah (Almighty and Glorious is He), will perish and perish, will go astray and go astray. They are two guides to the Lord of Truth (Almighty and Glorious is He). The Qur'an is your guide to the Lord of Truth (Almighty and Glorious is He), and the Sunna is your guide to the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace).

O Allah, cause a separation between us and our lower selves [nufus], and:

Give us in this world good, and good in the hereafter, and guard us against the torment of the fire. [Qur'an 2:201]

From Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani, "The Sublime Revelation" [Al-Fath ar-Rabbani], translated by Muhtar Holland (Published by Al-Baz Publishing, Houston, Texas, 1992). The quote is from the end of the twenty-fifth discourse, p. 182.


--This Shaykh is the most famous Sufi of all time and the founder of the Qadriyyah Order. He has more mureeds than any other silsila.

Now go away and stop misleading others into believing that those ignoramuses who smoke charas and play the banjo and have no disregard for the Shariah are in any way real Sufis.

True and False Sufis,

from Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi

False Sufis steal the words of the Sufis and present them as their own, and thus trick people with the beautiful teachings, which they are merely imitators of. They do not have true knowledge of that which they are speaking. Many of the great Sufi Shuyukh speak of deceptive false Sufis - these people take the title of "Sufi" because it gives them a certain amount of prestige and power, and they take advantage of those who cannot tell false Sufism from the real thing.

On the topic of false Sufis, Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi says:

A disciple who is trained by a man of God will have a pure and purified spirit. But he who is trained by an imposter and hypocrite and who learns theory from him will be just like him: despicable, weak, incapable, morose, without any exit from uncertainties, and deficient in all his senses. "As for the unbelievers -- their protectors are idols, that bring them forth from the light into the shadows." (Qur'an 2:257).

[From the "Fihi ma fihi," translated by W. C. Chittick in "The Sufi Path of Love: the Spiritual Teachings of Jalaluddin Rumi," p. 145]

Furthermore, on the topic of false Sufis and the harm they do, Jalaluddin Rumi says (in poetry):

You are the disciple and guest of someone who in his vileness will steal away all your attainments.

He is not victorious -- how will he make you victorious? He will not give you light, he will make you dark.

Since he has no light, how can others receive light through associating with him?

Like a blind man who cures eyes: With what will he anoint your eyes other than wool? [...]

He has no scent or trace of God, but his claims are greater than those of Seth or Adam.

The devil himself is embarassed to appear before him; he keeps on saying, "We are of the saints and even greater."

He steals many of the words of the dervishes, so that people may think he really is someone.

In his talks he even cavils at Bayazid; Yazid himself is ashamed of him. (*)

He is destitute of the bread and provisions of heaven: God has not thrown him a single bone.

[From the Mathnawi of Jalaluddin Rumi, Book I, vv. 2265-68, 72-76, translated by W. C. Chittick in "The Sufi Path of Love: the Spiritual Teachings of Jalaluddin Rumi," p. 145-6.]

(*) Bayazid refers to the great Wali Allah, Bayazid al-Bistami; Yazid refers to the oppressive ruler.

Therefore we see that a great Shaykh such as Jalaluddin Rumi warns us of the false Sufis. False Sufis may even be more prevalent today than they were in the past. We must distinguish between true Sufis, who follow the Shari`ah, and false Sufis, who often do not.

Wassalam,

Fariduddien Rice

ps at to that link about inayat khan--the first half of his silsila contains famous sufis who were all great ulama too and are well known. the later half i am not aware of. as for inayat khan he was a nobody in the world of islamic mysticism. as for respecting and loving hazrat mawla ali, you idiot it doesn't automatically make u a shia.

Naqsh-

read #270.

and here is just one of th examples from my #270 post

"To start, here is a lineage of sufis that, well, are learned scholars, but obviously not mullahs: sufiorder.org, and look here for thier silsila http://sufiorder.org/silsila.html"
with much respect,
thinking storm

Re: # 257

no there haven't.

Kaal, Naqsh-

Actually Naqsh's quote is again one where slap a sheikh in front of the Imam and you have a sufi variety.

I have read some of Ghazal's work where he continues to make wonderful sense until it comes to women. Then he is a surprising mullah. The reason is simple. He was a legalist. At odds with sufism really.

As for Naqsh's claim that