The need for De-Bhuttofication of the Pakistan People's Party

I fully endorse your views although I am sceptic whether actually de Bhuttofication can materialize. Mind you in India also the Nehru dynasty, though more open compared to Bhuttos, continues to rule. The problem is that our culture is personality oriented as people have a tendency to be swayed by chrismatic personalities. Once these personalities have attained a sufficent clout, cult of personality is built in order to retain the following. Party and leader become one. This is most unfortunate

Read my post again Masadi.

High Priest of Church of MAJ - ZAB seems to be delivering a stinging slap on your ignorant face.

My guess is that you haven't read "Myth of Independence" to actually know what you are talking about.

I am willing to bet your ass in bannu that the only books you've read are your own.

Manto wrote in his 1000th ilog " remember reading a passionate letter by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto to the Time Magazine in 1948 as a young student at University of Southern California .... in which he defended Jinnah tooth and nail... Similarly his book "Myth of Independence" and his speeches to the National Assembly in with his bitter attacks against those who he suspected of being abusive against Jinnah... all reveal Bhutto's intense devotion to Jinnah"

Here is someone who does not have a clue about what he is writing. The Bhutto that was in 1948 was not the same Bhutto that wrote the "Myth of Independence", and the Bhutto that wrote the "Myth of Independence" (the title of the Book meaning that what Jinnah achieved was a myth and therefore a failure in the real sense but it could be salvaged now that the deal was done by breaking away from the major powers), was not the same Bhutto writing his final testimony from the gallows facing death.

In his final verdict the ZAB reflecting skepticism on the Pakistan experiment and acknowledging his failure to defeat the powers that be who have been the only beneficiaries of this experiment wrote, and I quote (read carefully) "This is not a letter on Pakistan. If it were, I could have written a small book entitled “Glimpses of Pakistan’s history”. Time does not
permit it. The nation is gripped in her worst crisis, standing in the
middle of the road between survival and disintegration. Since the birth
of Pakistan, crisis has followed crisis in rapid escalation. Millions of
lives were sacrificed to create this country. Pakistan is said to be the
dream of Mohammad Iqbal and the creation of Mohammad Ali
Jinnah, the Quaid-e-Azam. Was anything wrong with the dream or
with the one who made the dream come true? Opinions have differed
and continue to differ. The next few years will most probably decide
the issue, perhaps once and for all, and not without bloodshed. This
process is not inevitable but the present policies of the ruling junta
are driving this country towards a sad inevitability.(Letter to his Daughter)

Note: Those who cannot derive the conclusion from the highlighted portion of the paragraph, please tear up your high school diplomas and other useless pieces of paper you got thereafter. Also note what followed after these words, the dictatorship of the Zia ul Fcuk and America's proxy cold war, the sad inevitability that will soon see the end of this experiment with the Muslims of Pakistan entering the Union in a much weaker state than they ever were as one block, unless we see a leader of the calibre of the ZAB who tries to salvage the mess we were put in by you know who.

P.S: By the way I don't have any "idols" as Manto suggests based on his own experience of being a worshipper and the High Priest of the now defunct Church of the MAJ. I support those who support the people, I support those who sacrifice their lives by challenging the elite the enemies of the people.

Masadi is a classic case of someone who doesn't bother to actually read something but resorts to second guessing and third rate patch work. Hardly the academic.

The poor guy probably hasn't read a single one of ZAB's books... certainly not "Myth of Independence". Had he actually read the book, he would have come across the chapter where ZAB quotes Beverley Nichols' famous "Interview with a Giant"... Suffice to say it is a slap on the face of Masadi and his abuse directed as Jinnah by none other than Masadi's own idol of worship the Raja of Larkana.

It is the finest defence of Jinnah, by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Whatever his faults, and ZAB was after all a Wadera above all else so there were many many many least of all his absolute contempt for people... but no one can fault Bhutto for his honest devotion to Mahomed Ali Jinnah (though it was never enough for him to actually emulate the great man's honesty and integrity and courage)

To quote (Ghulam Ahmed Parwez's) Tolu-e-Islam's website (Bhutto could have been addressing freaks like Masadi):

On December 21, 1976, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, late Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto addressed a joint session of the National Assembly and Senate of the federation held to commemorate the centenary of birth of Quaid-e-Azam. Addressing Quaid-e-Azam's portrait hanging on the wall, he said in a most dramatic fashion: -

"Quaid-eAzam!

I know what arrows pierced your heart (during struggle for Pakistan). The British said you were arrogant. This was understandable, because you had refused to bow before them. The Congress leaders and their henchmen called you stubborn. That too was to be expected, because they had failed to trick you. What is not understandable, and what must have certainly bewildered and distressed you is, that the nation, for whose sake you were putting up with all this, was in forefront of your tormentors!"

Then he went on to give details of what people from one province or the other had done against the Quaid-e-Azam. After this detail, he remarked about the irony that the Maulvis and Maulanas had also pounced upon him. He followed with an observation that among his critics, a certain person, although saying things similar to others, couched them in a comparatively fancy language. Then he started quoting in English, excerpts from the book by Mr. Maudoodi titled "Muslims and the Present Political Turmoil" Volume 3. He quoted so extensively, that the text covered two columns and a half of Pakistan Times of December 23, 1976.

'what a pucca Gujju baniya he was, miserly even with tears'

Harish,

Lol!!

Re: # 375

Dear Borivili,

Well said. And not just privately but in public as well... like for example the time Dina came to see him after the assassination attempt on his life.

Contrary to the claims made... Jinnah was a perfectly practising Khoja Shia Muslim. In the shia faith, while all dietary observations exist on cards, the main crux is never dietary observation... but the martyrdom of Hussain and celebration of the family of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). The mainstream orthodoxy gets even more diluted when it comes to offshoots like Ismaili Shiism (in which Jinnah was born) and Khoja Shiism (to which Jinnah converted).

As with all smaller and tightly knit communities ... including Parsis, marriage outside the faith is a no no. Similarly in Heterodox and other smaller Islamic sects like Bohri, Agha Khani, Alavis, Druze and Ahmadis etc marriage outside the faith is an absolute no no... though Agha Khan recently made an exception for his daughter. Even the Shia community at large forbids even the man marrying outside the Islamic faith be it to people of the book (Sunni Islam allows men and women to marry outside the faith but for women it is considered highly undesirable and juristically "irregular").

However this was not the only reason Jinnah opposed Dina's marriage to Neville Wadia. Neville Wadia was a womanizer and Jinnah proved right when a few years later when Dina divorced Neville on grounds that Neville was unfaithful.

Jinnah's opposition to Dina's wedding however was simply that - an opposition. Unlike Gandhi who hit the roof when he found out that his son had become a Muslim and married a Muslim woman subsequently having to make his positions clear by holding a press conference on the issue... Jinnah did not indulge in dramatics nor did he try to stop Dina from doing as she pleased.

-YLH

VRV and Zee,

Why is Yasser mian silent on this one? On numerous occasions in the past, he has told us his tear-jerker tale of how Jinnah asked the servant to bring Dina's suitcase and open it, gazing at it for eternity and then wiping away a tear (what a pucca Gujju baniya he was, miserly even with tears) from his eye. Yasser mian also told us that he continued to have warm relations with his daughter till the very end, all this to refute Jinnah's double-standards WRT to his daughter's marriage to a Parsi, a "crime" he too was guilty of.

Tahmed sahib,

(indian politicians - most of whom have served their country with honor.)

This has to go down with Naqshbandi sahib's "Tale of the Dead Parrot" as one of the genuine gems of Chowk.

Regards

Another thing to add to #380 that this ignoramus does not get, lack of activity (i.e. avoiding something) is also a deed (action) as much as positive activity is.

tahmed writes "avoiding daru and pork does not entail any real cost"

Of course it does ask those who utlilze the two in their lifestyle. Once again a dimwitted narrow culturally confused response by an ignoramus

Then he writes"daru and pork are also not sins that are of the same category as the real show-stoppers, namely actions"

More BS, daru is linked with aggression, violence, a factor in crimes of many varieties and domestic violence. How do those things amount to "lack of action". Regarding pork, it certainly does "Stop" the action due to its unhealthy nature, believe it or not it is linked to cirrohsis, trichinosis as well as a very high internal fat content.

Then he writes "thus, muslims, like water, take the path of least resistance - i.e. do things that are easy to do (avoid liquor, pig) and dont do things that are hard to do."

Once again more BS, ask those who are genetically predisposed to alcohol, and there are many such, how "easy" it is to avoid it, also given the cultural component of it in Western society, it is anything but easy to avoid it. It seems like you call it "easy" because you don't want to avoid it. Don't try to justify your perversions using Islam.

Then he says "The Quran does say that if you do the right actions, you have nothing to fear."

Doing the right thing signifies one is sincere and is careful of God in the unseen. Indeed the Quran says that those who accept the truth, and do the right things, no fear will come on them nor will they grieve.....think about this you ignoramus

#376 borilivi: gujerat is one state, and granted your point is valid there. but Modi is hardly representative of indian politicians and military people - most of whom have served their country with honor.

Which is more than can be said about our politiians and military generals.

avoiding daru and pork does not entail any real cost. the first too often makes you act like a fool anyway, is bad for your health (even taking into account the cardio-vascular benefits), the latter is easily substituted with much better kinds of food.

daru and pork are also not sins that are of the same category as the real show-stoppers, namely actions.

avoiding wrong actions entails a real cost.

thus, muslims, like water, take the path of least resistance - i.e. do things that are easy to do (avoid liquor, pig) and dont do things that are hard to do.

trouble is - in the Quran nowhere does it say that if you dont drink or eat pig or do the hajj you have nothing to fear. The Quran does say that if you do the right actions, you have nothing to fear.

something to think about i think.

Zeemax writes "Daaru is merely undesirable, but pork is haram. Check your Islam 101 ! "

No mian you are dead wrong on this one.

When Allah says in the Quran, "Allah ho harama ismun" (Allah has made haraam all ism- commonly translated as sin) and then says that in your daaru is "ismun kabeer"- what does 2+2 tell you?

but the greatness of secular democratic hindu india lies in relecting a mass murderer and rapist like modi with a huge majority

zeemax Jinnah was not religious, pork and whisky were just symptoms not the cause. according to most accunts he continued meetng Dina in private both before and after creation of pakistan. if he had not disowned her he would not have survived as aleader of muslims, he was already being called kafir-e-azam by muslim ulema.

and yes Bhutto was guilty, evn hitler was never tried by due process of law neither has been Modi or pol pot but they were guilty enough evidence exists including murder and torture of political opponents, Kasuri was just one.

#372 Posted by VRV,

Wrong!

Daaru is merely undesirable, but pork is haram. Check your Islam 101 !

#370 Posted by majumdar,

Thank you for informing me someone can be convicted by law without due process of law. :)

I can believe you're not a Brahmin :)

since daaru is haraam in Islam.

#369 Posted by zeemax on September 19, 2007 6:46:48 am

Zee,

U are wrong again. If Jinnah were a true Muslim he'd not given scotch whisky parties to the departing British in GG's House in Karachi.

His Muslimness is as good Savarkar's Hinduness (Savarkar is a known agnostic).

Zee sahib,

Re: 338

(So he was successfully convicted for a crime which he had committed but without legal process? Is that it?)

Yes.

(You must be the Brahmin which KaalChakra is accused of by Ranjit i.e. Baghal mein churri munh par ram ram. )

Nope. I am not a Brahmin.

Regards

VRV,

Nehru's opposition may have been political, but Jinnah's was religious. He was insisting on Dina having him converted, and when she didn't, he cut her off. Just like that.

Zee, u know that reason 4 failure of Indira's marriage is Nehru's possessiveness (I think).

It's a fact that he opposed her marraige. Feroze Gandhi gave speeches against Nehru's govt (I am going to unknown territory, I read this somewhere but I am not sure).

There's an undercurrent of disagreement btw Nehru and his jamai Feroze Gandhi.

Yaar, I am qutoing the book I read. Prf. Ahmed was at pains to explain that they exchanged letters that contain cordial ref to each other.

Prolly we need to interview Cowasjee abt this who met Dina on2one when she went to Karachi.

Nehru didn't disown Indira ...

Yeah he didn't leave her an inch of property. She's still fighting for some.

I haven't said that but may be yes......so was Nehru & so was Gandhi who opposed the decisions of their adult offsrpings.

VRV,

don't burden your mind too much over akber ahmed and the sort. All references are available on even wiki ...

#359 Posted by VRV,

So your argument is Jinnah was being dark minded (despite eating pork while being a Muslim) in not accepting his daughter marrying a non-Muslim.

That's really weird ... :)

Pro. Akber Ahmed

Zee, if u read a book by Aker Ahmed or Manto's ilog abt Dina getting paternal love from Jinnah is enuf a proof that they had normal relations as dad & daughter.

As for not leaving his property, mmmmmm..I have to think abt it.

Zee,

Look at Nehru, my idol. He too was against Indira marrying a Parsi. Look at Gandhi. He roo opposed his adult son becoming a Muslim.

The times they lived was different. Even now we hear stories of parents thrashing children 4 their love marriages. Pak familes beheading their daughters in honour killings and Mukhtran paraded naked for no fault of hers.

Despite the winds of modernism our ppl are dark-minded.

#356 Posted by VRV,

Try again VRV. Jinnah disowned Dina after her marriage, didn't leave her any property, took to calling her 'Mrs. Wadia' instead of 'Dina' and refused to meet her ever again. Though some accounts say he did meet her formally once or twice before Pakistan.

#354 Posted by VRV,

The question is "If Jinnah was liberal enough to eat pork, why wasn't he liberal enough to let his daughter marry a non-Muslim (i.e. a pork-eater)?"

:)

Daughter going to saural's hse is cut-off? Zee, pl have some balance in ur argument.

Re: # 347

No propaganda can hide the evilness of Islam that is evident from the actions of their Sheikhs like Osama.
Aurangzeb is a Pir of all these rascal Pakistanis and they all revel in the bloody sacrifices that they want to commit for their moon god by smiting off heads of idolators like me.
Even their Pak history books cannot sugar coat the evilness of their shameless blood thirsty Islamic cult that actually survives on the hatred towards idolators like me.
I have read the Quran and Hadith and have seen the REAL Islam in action.
I want all my idolator hindu brothers to read that book of hate and realize what holds in store for them.

Zee,

U mean marrying Nivelle Wadia? What the Q abt it?

He ate pork and I quoted 2 stories abt it. Jinnah NEVER denied abt it.

#350 Posted by VRV,

Whiskey yes, but not bacon. Would you mind answering the question below?

he ever..

#349 Posted by borivili_express,

Yaar he ate bacon but cut off his only child for marrying a non-Muslim? Doesn't make any kind of sense.

Zee,

It's in Bombay in the early days as politician ordered a cake and ham sandwich. He even commented that he wudnt have a ghost of a chance of getting elected to the National Assembly if the ppl come to know abt his ham sandwiches.

In another case he commented that his sausages are more importnt than his God (sic). Pl mind u in Britain sausages means pork sausages.

Over and above he never condemned this allegation that he never ate pork and drank whiskey.

Once a person gets cult status, we ascribe all +ve traits and ignore that the man we admire was also a human being.

Brovili,

Tera suar ka khandaan ko sambhal karo.

the quaid did eat bacon Chagla who was his understudy wrote that in his book too, but so what in soar ke bachon se to behtar hai

#346 Posted by VRV,

VRV, Jinnah never ate bacon. What you're quoting is from a single source (Wolpert) which has been denied by Jinnah's closest associates.

These hindus lie through their teth their are hindu temples in oman and dubai and they are in the open not in someboies flat, nd the Kashi temple was a den for thuggees and women were kept in its basement, some widows but also kidnapped ones, infact a hindu noblewoman had also been kidnapped and kept there, hen the activities got out of hand Aurangzeb the marde momin defeated the thugs and demolished the temple.

There are several temples in north indi o which aurangzeb gave land grants, he also broke some of his rivals temples especially the jats, sikhs and marathas but that is an old hindu tradtion followed by the rajputs as well, so did the sikhs by making lahore's badshahi mosque into a stable for horses and shahidganj mosue into a gurdwara.

But hindus are the only peopl to break a mosque out of cussedness in the last 200 years and these chaddiwalas have the dheet/kanjarpan to point fingers at muslims

laanat hai in buzdilon pe

Yaar Zee, that's until I met some north African Muslims (former Fercnh subjects). Some even say that their parents were Muslims but they are non-believers!!!!!!

Btw, how can u forget that Father of Pakistan is a lover of ham and bacon??

(OK, I dont like to prolong this line but the phrase I gave here is in full-jest).

#343 Posted by Sanatani,

Sanatani Bhra why such 'shagufta' language today instead of your usual delightful adornments?

Roza teh naeen rakhya hoya ...? :)

#341 Posted by VRV,

VRV, Muslims will do anything but they won't eat bacon. You're being quite imaginative here ... :)

Laddu,

You stoopid son of a beetch why are you using the word idolator in your interacts.

Can u use the word worshipper instead. And stop giving half assed reasoning's from faith freedom. Use bharatvani instead.

Sorry for the invective but it is a western inspired term and not in good taste.

Regards
Sanatani

Why am I against faihfreedom is that it is similalry western inspired. Bharatvani is voice of Dharma and truth. Pls remember like Islam Judaism and Chirtianity and Communism/Marxism are all basis of falsehoods and equally so and for those who say it is relative I say it relative to the extent that is dog excrement better than cat excrement or firm is better than loose.

I forgot 2 add ;-)

Zee,

Pl dont take this personnaly. I've invented this phrase inspired by ur 'Baghal mein churri munh par ram ram'. (I really dont know the meaning):

'Bagel mei bacon munh par Islam'.

(since we live the west we know what it is).

Re: # 334

Hey,

I saw BB interview on "Seedhi Baat" TV program.
She said that only those who support the political BUSINESS of opening and running madarassas in order to gain some political power oppose her amongst moderates.

She said some thing to the effect about ending the business of terror in Pakistan...

this is a great news for idolators like me who are the logical victims of Islam's terrorism.

All idolators support her for this statement......

I would think that BB should be supported.

Re: # 337

you also need to go behind bars for making that statement....like Abu Hamza went in UK....

majumdar,

Which one of the following is true?

#326: Manto mian, ... A big shot being successfully convicted and exeucted for a crime that he had actually committed.

OR:

#331 : Manto mian, About the legal process you are absolutely right.

So he was successfully convicted for a crime which he had committed but without legal process? Is that it?

You must be the Brahmin which KaalChakra is accused of by Ranjit i.e. Baghal mein churri munh par ram ram.

#335 Posted by laddu,

... death penalty to that murderer...

... kill the idolators ... same, same ...!

#330 Posted by MantoLives,

Manto, all the hard evidence you need is buried in H-11 in cellophane bags, plus the rubble of Jamia Hafsa under heavy guard. Don't lose hope. It will all be dug up for musharraf's extra-judicial murder trial.

Of-course there's plenty of photographic and anecdotal evidence of dozens of credible witnesses (without the lure of rewards) which you're not prepared to accept.

Re: # 327

Yes, we have a beef with Moses as well and would consider him as a father of all the violence in Abrahmic religions.
Given a chance we would have asked for death penalty to that murderer in any court of law.
This was the 'original sin' that has been condoned and till day murder of idolators and kafirs is considered as a TEST of faith.
Al Qaeda also refers to this dastardly act by Moses and the Abrahmic profits in order to absolve itself of all the sins of Jeeva Hatya (murder of a human being). The Islamic cult members use this pretext in order to justify genocide and destruction of idolators and their civilizations.
This is the 'original sin' for which Islam is paying the price through karmic retribution.

Re: # 293 Posted by laddu on September 18, 2007 11:35:36 am
I agree with you [What we require is not de-bhuttofication - but de-Islamization of PAkistan!!] Marginalizing the MMA should be the first priority of all nationalist Pakistanis. Which party, in your opinion, would put this genie back in the bottle?

When it comes to their religion, a substantial number of Pakistanis have become very virulent. Their haughtiness is now world renowned. Just listen to the words spoken by our political leaders.

Zeemax,

"It created the Bhutto myth and forever scarred the Pakistani people in a way not even the separation of East Pakistan could."

The only myth of the Bhutto is " a thousand year war with india"

and also " we will have the bomb, but will eat grass".

Very unlikely that the above myths scarred pakistani, they only inspired them.

Re:330

Manto mian,

Are you referring to the alleged use of a colourless allotrope of the Chemical Element No. 15 as a chemical weapon. Which said alegation is allegedly not backed by any sound evidence.

Regards

PS: I dare not come any closer lest I unwittingly spark off another derby.

Manto mian,

About the legal process you are absolutely right.

(It created the Bhutto myth)

Right again. There are quite a few people in the Indian sub-continent who shud not have been allowed to be murdered but let to die of old age or disease borught about by their own perverted practises. I guess u know who I am referring to.

Regards

Zeemax,

Agreed. But ironic that you don't apply the same stanard of evidence across the board.

majumdar,

The legal process was not followed.

Two judges were forcibly retired. SC judgement came down 4-3 against Bhutto. At any level... court of first instance or the high court the evidence on record could not prove Bhutto's guilt...

It created the Bhutto myth and forever scarred the Pakistani people in a way not even the separation of East Pakistan could.

#326 Posted by majumdar,

I suppose you are not aware that the forensic evidence presented did not match and the verdict was handed out purely on the basis of an alleged accomplice's testimony (Masood Mehmood - DG FSF) turned Crown witness in return for pardon.

ZAB was not guilty, which fact is now widely accepted.

Yaar laddu, what's your beef about persecution of idolators like you? You should complain to Jews because it was Moses who first kicked the Golden Calf's butt :)

Manto mian,

(The judicial murder of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was a great tragedy in our country's history. )

One of the few success stories of the sub-continent. A big shot being successfully convicted and exeucted for a crime that he had actually committed. Lots of other politicians on either side of the Radcliffe Line ought to have faced that Fate.

Regards

Ahmed Raza Kasuri the village idiot has made an interesting statement at the Supreme Court.

He declared that he managed to eliminate Bhutto and hence Aitzaz would be no match. The judicial murder of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was a great tragedy in our country's history.

Bhutto fell victim to his own policies of persecution and state-sponsored oppression. Zia-ul-Haq was Bhutto V 2.0. Ziaism was basically a less attractive but more effective fom of Bhuttoism - as defined in the article. It was the case of one machiavellian falling prey to the machinations of another machiavellian... quite like Danton and Robespierre if you ask me.

Ahmed Raza Kasuri was simply the village idiot.

ha ha ha TAhmed.

Cobra: I think you meant your spelling teacher. Your grammer teacher committed suicide when you started writing english using gujrati grammer.

Clifton, it's of no use. My grammar teacher in school tried it unsuccessfully. Finally she gave up and committed suicide. :((

Re: # 311

It is proven beyond doubt that the mosques and madarassas are actually the seat of evil of Islamic fascism world over.

The fact that NO Islamic state or any country trying to emulate the book of hate would actually let NEW idols and Dev-Sthanam get established in their land.
The script of hate allows for slow stifling of zimmi faith so that they are harrassed into Islamic submission.
Every muslim of some faith knows this fact about their duty to harrass zimmis - howsoever they may try to sugar coat it.

shah2 bhai, yaara, moghuls were us as well, and hope the day never comes when any Indian is not proud of the fact that the word 'moghul' has become part of the English language, denoting glory and grandeur. It's just that we never had people of courage and real vision, our desmond tutus and mandelas(*)...but we (and that includes both Hindus and Muslims of Indo-Pak) are a resilient and intelligent people. We will gradually craft our mututally respectful understandings, with better results for all. Cheers (hope you don't take any words used here amiss. They are meant only for people who, one regretfully concludes, are too closed-minded, too full of themselves, to listen to any pleas or entreaties).

---------

(*) On second thoughts, that is not right. We had the best leaders anyone could have had, but even the best leave us asking for more, and, like greedy children, whining for a little more, a little more.

----

agreed, tahmed ji. Thanks for the quote.

Kaalchakra #313 Good point. Thomas Jefferson said: The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.—Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785.

What picks people's pocket and breaks people's legs is religion used as a tool to gain and maintain power, to carry out immoral acts in its name. Once hindus and muslims in the subcontinent realize this, they will see that their true enemies throughtout history and to this day are not one another by the priesthood and rulers who consider themselves accountable to God and not to the people. And so Jefferson's wise words are as applicable today as they were back in 1785 when he wrote them - keep government accountable to the people, and keep religion out of politics.

Kaalchakra #313 Good point. Thomas Jefferson said: The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.—Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785.

What picks people's pocket and breaks people's legs is religion used as a tool to gain and maintain power, to carry out immoral acts in its name. Once hindus and muslims in the subcontinent realize this, they will see that their true enemies throughtout history and to this day are not one another by the priesthood and rulers who consider themselves accountable to God and not to the people. And so Jefferson's wise words are as applicable today as they were back in 1785 when he wrote them - keep government accountable to the people, and keep religion out of politics.

#313 &#314

Cobes And Kaal I excuse my self I am Sufi
and dont love moghuls

manto in all the tu tu main main i forgot to say that was a really well thought out argument. I have often hoped for PPP's sake that BB would die of sudden cardiac death. I have the same hope for Altaf for MQM's sake too.

cobes i love you but please yaar. As the second worse speller here ....from one doll to another ...its spelt WORSHIP!!! Warship is a whole different kettle of fish.

Yasser, we seem to have hijacked your thread but since the topic is raised let's discuss it here. :)

Salim, I have no desire to kill some one over petty issues of place of warship nor do I have any desire to destroy what was erected on earlier destruction. Although, I must confess that I supported destruction of Babri Masjid at the time but over the years I have seen the fallacy of that action. I do not support any such cause any longer.
Having said that, let me also mention that let's come foreword and own up to the mistakes of our ancestors. Candid confession is the first step of reconciliation.

salim and cobes, people are killed and die totally unnecessarily because those issues of hundreds of years ago, and their consequences, are with us, left unresolved even today. If spain ever builds up sufficient numbers of Muslims, there might be trouble ahead for spain over the Grand Mosque of Cordova, and such.

The only way to move forward on these issues is a real truth commission, so old issues can be acknowledged and put aside.

In Inddia/Pakistan, we have a tragic situation. Muslims look at the Muslim rule period as one of great enlightenment, Hindus as one of great evil. If our leaders had the wisdom and courage, they would have shown us the truth for whatever it was - probably something in the middle.

But we are left with two completely different views, that directly offend each other's sensitivities. And sensitivities are not controlled, when they collide with our present (obviously not very good) realities. :(

{"salim, how would you feel if some one destroys Mecca’s kaaba built their places of warship and then build new mosques somewhere else?"}

Cobray,
I visited the Grand Mosque of Cordova and it's now a cathedral.
I also see the Hajia Sofia which was a cathedral, turned into a mosque by Ottomans, and is now a museum thanks to Ataturk.
I saw the destruction of the Babri Masjid on TV.
I also saw the destruction of the Great Budha of Bamiyan on TV
I listen to the constant desire of right-wing neo cons and bible thumpers and fanatic Jews that they want to demolish the Dome of the Rock.

So, I hate it when historic buildings are destroyed. I hate it more when live people are killed today for the destruction of buildings 300 - 800 years ago.

#310 What is name of that Famous Shiv Temple ? I have been to Kashi but not to the temple.
I dunno much but D.M ji has .
Dont if i can prove it but it was center of activities detrimental to citizens like seat of crime .Obviously its one point of view

salim, how would you feel if some one destroys Mecca’s kaaba built their places of warship and then build new mosques somewhere else?

Shah, I didn't see DM's post. Have you been to Kashi temple? The evidence is plain in site.

Cobes305
D.M ji recently had a post denying any destruction even in Benares which goes against ypur claim he had a REASON to build next to Mandir

Cobra #300 {"That's how Aurangzeb thought too... so he destroyed the temple"}

Cobray,
He also built many Hindu temples. :) Possibly many more than he destroyed.

Seems like shahji is a victim of his own mantra of "repetition evolving into fact". Shahji, I gave yu an example of saudi..Bong gave you kuwait..what now? :-)

Bong Dong i have never lived too but some of my friends claim they have mandir which may be just one room in a flat i dont no.

regarding Secularism my example of Indonesia And malaysi was becuse thses were muslim majority not b/c they are secular by constitution like India or Not .

Shah reg. #301. What do you mean. Please expound.

#298

correct me if I am wrong. I have not lived there but I never heard of any hindu mandir's in Bahrain Qatar or Abu Dhabi.

#298

also, I dont know why you mention Nigeria where at most 50% people are muslim (many nominally) so and the state is officially secular.

#298

Shah-ji I have lived in Kuwait aur yeh aah sarasar jhoot bol rahen haein!

Here's the story. The Bengali-Hindu's in Kuwait wanted to have "durga-pujo". Of course there was no chance of having anything religious out in the open so a "secret-mandir" was constructed in one persons flat. A hall was rented for the "cultural" festivities, now was the dilemma it could not be advertised (flyers etc) as "hindu". Advertising as "bengali cultural" would attract Bangladeshi muslims who might give the game away.

by the way several such "secret" mandirs have been raided in Kuwait and people arrested-deported.

so much for Kuwaiti tolerance!

If you repeat it billion times it BECOMES fact:)

"Why would any muslim want a mosque next to Hardwar Badrinath or similar place"

That's how Aurangzeb thought too... so he destroyed the temple.

#287 Posted by chaltahai on September 18, 2007 10:56:35 am

Shahji, who has taken on the US?

Al those who are USA enemies N Korea Iran Iraq Anti imperialist lately Russia after short lived honey moon of 90s

But you can in India
but so can you dozenof Muslim Countries like Indonesia Malaysi Kwait Baherain Qatar Abu Dhabi dubai Nigeria to name few .
Why would any muslim want a mosque next to Hardwar Badrinath or similar place

Shah, If I give you $1M to build a mandir in Saudi for Hindus to pray..do you think you can get one built for me?

read 40000 hindu gujratis
and 1000 years since timur the lane

Isnt England as any other european country church dominated.The queen is beholden to the Pope Most of The schols are non se3cular chruch schoos where non christians ar barred and only if they hide them slves as non christians .Try to do any thing that is agauinst christianity the country B/c they are christain will hit you like brick All those seculaism and pluralism of wst is limited to as long s your a safe minority non threatening.Nonm uslim dont like to live in Muslim coun .But including the worst wahabi country like Soudi have large number of non muslims.now how many of them are hindu may be not as many as christians but no musdlims nevthe less.Similarly thereare 4000 Hindu Gujratis in Dubai alone .SimilArly muslim majority countries like Gulf ones dont decimate hindus (idoaters accordin to Laddu)It has been 100 years since timur the lane was termed iconoclast the idle breaker .If anything Advani is Masjid breaker not to speak of hundreds abandoned to rust & weeds post 47

That is my final suggestion to all- good night from Indian Punjab!!

What we require is not de-bhuttofication - but de-Islamization of PAkistan!!

Re: # 291

How about this hypothetical-

Is Islam was not there, Pakistan would have been perfect!!

No, power doesn't come expressly from proximity or use of religion. this is not a universal phenomenon. this is an authentic islamic phenomenon.

I like the hypotheticals you throw out Kaal. Wht if nation states weren't there..wouldn't islam be perfect? I tell ya what..if humans weren't there..Islam would be perfect. How is that for a hypothetical. Go crazy with this..my friend.

shahjee,

Arabic imperialism of Islam is like a virus, that seeks to infect human bodies and then aims to multiply itself in as many human bodies as possible while at the same time taking those bodies to sure and steady death.

American imperialism is certainly enslaving but does not really kill the bodies and lets the soul survive. Islam actually kills the soul and brainwashes the human mind.

May be we can use #286 as a segue to bring this hopelessly wayward discuss back on its rails, by saying that Bhutto understood and appreciated that power of political religion :)

Chalta, we are not attaching value judgements (good or bad).

Re: # 285

shahjee,

Correct - the fight is between Arabic versus American Imperialism- but the difference is that Arabic Imperialism tries to put itself on a higher moral ground by justifying its' genocide of idolaters with reference to an imaginary moon deity and hallucinations of a mad person.
whereas American Imperialism loosely follows American multi-billionaire trans-national corporate interests and certainly does not envisages a regressive Bedouin society as its ideal.

Shahji, who has taken on the US?

chalta, could you be overlooking the (mediating) role of nation states? If one took away those nation states (which are - some can argue - an unIslamic entitty) where will power slide to? One can guess, and agreed that is hypothetical.

But take ANY Islamic nation. Obviously, there are all kinds of litle centers of power, but in general, who has the power to move the masses, more than all others groups?

I would suggest it is not the liberals or the seculars (as you and I use the term. An Islamic secularist is a very different being. :)).

Basically, power comes from proximity to or use of religion, and the ability to carry the book wearing shirt and pant (not true for females. They have to be more appropriately dressed, in the manner neembu invariably promotes).

Power without religion is like moonlight without the sun.

#276 Posted by laddu on September 18, 2007 10:05:08 am
Re: # 271

kaal,

Are you from this world? Islam is arabic imperialism that slowly and steadily tries to decimate every other faith through terror, violence, persuasion and rewards.
See how Osama videos follows the script that was actually written a thousand years back. Every muslim knows the script by heart. Read the Quran and hadith if you want to know the end game of this script- destruction of all of us!!!
................................
Laddua by that defination USA will beat ever one else

"To decimate every other through force or sanction or threat far worse ".here not every American DOES NOT know about that.But its the latest book of Neo con.So cool down and take on USA as some have.. before you know they will keep you coding And answering teleohones ....Dont eat too much ladu its bad for your health

GOD Discriminates! that my friend is a foregone conclusion. that is why numbers don't matter. We can debate this all day.

Value is held in the company by the shareholders and shareholders alone. Doesn;t matter if the company has 5 million employees or 2. Not sure what your point is here. You are confusing value with power. Same goes for military or patriarchal families. In most companies a shareholder is not the ultimate power holder. There is strategic control, financial control, operational control. mgmt has control, if it is labor heavy unions have controls, there is deliberation and consensus. SO I am not sure what you are driving at.

Authentic islam puts control in the hands of an unprovable entity..that is why it is fluff..the muslims outside the core of this fluff are the real power holders as they use their noggin rather than kneel and bob all day.

{"A strong and vibrant democratic PPP will be the best guarantee of a democratic Pakistan. "}

Yasser,
I agree with you. When it comes to Bezamir Bhootni, I have very mixed feelings. I thought that the youthful BB was an attractive leader, a good speaker, and even an effective debater. Unfortunately, everything about her degrades into an aura of hypocrisy, awkward piety, and a mentality oozing with slavish catering to the West.

I even suspect her of harboring a vengeful hatred against Pakistan for the murder of her father. Her half-hearted attempt at wearing the dopatta over her head for consumption back home betrays her lack of sincerity. I would respect her more if she genuinely wore a hijab or went without cover as a sincere gesture of her individuality.

Also, I would want to know what she has done to overcome her racist and murderous viewpoint that she exhibited toward Mohajirs and what is her relationship with General Khabisoola BuRbuR.

Finally, she needs to clear up the cloud over her mansion in UK, her secret Swiss accounts, and a full explanation of the alleged export of priceless objects from Pakistani museums.

"Noone takes the constitution too seriously BECAUSE it is tied to closely to the quran. Try considering that.."

Agree.
-----------------

Chalta, if you just consider a few more points, and you will actually see why the earth will always be totally flat, no matter what sciece keeps informing people (quite uncessarily, IMO).

Numbers matter for those who (and in systems that) count. (Couting as a form of aggregation makes sense only if you believe in essential equality of all, right? If God discriminates then counting would be sinful.)

In a great many systems, value is not assumed to be uniformly distributed. In such systems value is confined in a few hands. As a business firm, for instance. Or, in the military. Or even in a close-knit patriarchical family.

Voting, and follwing what the largest numbers want, will be a ridiculous idea in these systems, right?

Kaal,


The inner contradiction between godly shariah and the piece of 'man made' trash called Pakistani constitution has been simmering since the day Pakistan was formed. The question of 'identity' and 'Pakistan ka matlab kya' so often gets asked that this contradiction between the sovereignty of a man made constitution versus the god's word is clearly evident.
Pakistani constitution is required to follow the "Islamic principles" , which losely defined means coherence to shariah. To what degree it is to do so is the only area of disagreement between the 'enlightened moderates', 'moderates' and the 'extremists' .
And ALL of them agree that idolators need to be pushed into submission- only the manner and severity of the strategy to be applied is a moot point.
The constitution becomes the veil or taqiyya to fool the liberal west - whereas the original Islamic agenda towards the idolators gets slowly strengthen day by day.

Kaal, no one takes the consitution too seriously in Pakistan BECAUSE it is tied to closely to the quran. Try considering that..

Kaal, who so ever has the power? So what happened to Authencity and non-authenticity per your logic? You are now saying that since the Fluff as you put it is greater in number than the core it is ok if they draft the rules for social governance and interaction? What the heck happened to perfect system for humans, logical, truly divine and all that other stuff? You are beginning to scare me with the waffling..don;t go all John Kerry on me..:-(

Laddu, Kaal is indeed from this world. I can guarantee it. There are a lot of people who think how he does. Thre have been a lot of people hwo have thought like this. The earth was flat, woman came from the spleen of a man, teh earth is 7000 years old, thunder means God just bowled a strike in the bowling alley up in heaven...then fucking science comes in and screws everything up. Damn you SCIENCE!! but there is a way around it..retrofit it!!!

laddu, please consider what you are saying.

You are saying that although Pakistani constitution gives Pakistani Hindus a right to build new temples, no new temples have been built in x (not stated) number of years. You think that is because the constitution ties itself too closely to the Quran, and because nobody takes Pakistani constitution seriously in Pakistan.

All these charges need some backing up. Otherwise you are screaming at someone who is already a liberal Islamist (if that is possible :)).

-----------

chalta, one is not wedded to terms. Whosoever has real societal power and can keep it constitutes the core.

Re: # 271

kaal,

Are you from this world? Islam is arabic imperialism that slowly and steadily tries to decimate every other faith through terror, violence, persuasion and rewards.
See how Osama videos follows the script that was actually written a thousand years back. Every muslim knows the script by heart. Read the Quran and hadith if you want to know the end game of this script- destruction of all of us!!!

lol chaltoo ...i am not channelling my inner masadi but my inner MQM ist ...laddu let me tell you that i happen to be a secularist but if i ever catch someone who sounds like you on pakistani soil i will personally put some lead in both your knee caps. People like you are a waste of oxygen. Hurry up and get reborn.

Kaal, if the authentic islam is the fluff what happens? I will tell you what happens..you have disharmony from philippines to the US. Because the fluff tries to impose stringency in an evlving world. they get frustrated and then kaboom..

You erroneously start with the supposition that the outer edge of the authentic islam black hole is fluff. It the core that is fluff, the outer edge is real. Hundreds of millions to prove it (since you like numbers)

Re: # 269

clifton bi,

You Islamic propensity to push abuses instead of arguments is indeed evident- your moon deity would be happy -and your profiteering intercessor would send you to your paradise as one of the 72 sex slaves to an uncouth jehadi suicide bomber.!!!

You friking constitution DOES NOT EXIST - it is a sham piece of paper that in it's own words needs to be made in consonance with the "Islamic principles" found in the mafiaso cult book.

Ask your dictator if that piece of trash exists at all or not??