Yasser Latif Hamdani September 11, 2007
#1 Posted by masadi on September 16, 2007 12:49:39 am
The bias and lack of credible evidence is witnessed throughout this badly written and quickly put together article. Not only that the author has borrowed my term De-Jinnahfication of Pakistan and put "De-Bhuttofication" in the title showing that as an infant at the "monkey see monkey do" stage his intellect only allows blind copy paste and copying the thoughts of others.
Finally this whole article is dismantled when we recognize and the author recognizes the fact that without the person of ZAB, the party would have amounted to nothing regardless of the left intellectuals- and certainly there was more than one in Pakistan-, and then why would ZAB who was a major force in the party choose such "friends" if he was wavering in following the left agenda. Further there is no evidence that the party PPP with a new socialist/anti imperialist platform wanted to "pick up where Jinnah left off", these are just the ramblings of the High Priest of the Church of MAJ trying to revive a dead cult.
The fact is that Jinnah not only used slogans of "Islam" for his own perverse ends, he knew nothing about it, he badly and forever damaged the political power of Muslims in the Sub Continent, and hobnobbed with the feudals and colonials, isolated the Bengali Muslims, and nipped in the bud what could have been a democratically governed Pakistan because having a democracy in Pakistan was not in the plans (though might be in the popular slogans even of dictators like Musharraf)of either the colonials or their man in the West, MAJ.
Regarding de-bhuttofication, ZAB was popular because of his platform, Benazir is leeching off her father's popularity, as is the case unfortunately in our parts of the world where family ties and recognition even overpower gender and ethnic discrimination. Without ZAB charisma and properly communicated agenda, the party is nothing and will become nothing.....while MAJ and his shenanigans were exposed to the people long ago and I can bet you my parker pen that were recognition of MAJ and recognition of ZAB to compete in an election today ZAB would beat MAJ hands down regardless of BS polls, that kind that Manto has been quoting...
Finally this whole article is dismantled when we recognize and the author recognizes the fact that without the person of ZAB, the party would have amounted to nothing regardless of the left intellectuals- and certainly there was more than one in Pakistan-, and then why would ZAB who was a major force in the party choose such "friends" if he was wavering in following the left agenda. Further there is no evidence that the party PPP with a new socialist/anti imperialist platform wanted to "pick up where Jinnah left off", these are just the ramblings of the High Priest of the Church of MAJ trying to revive a dead cult.
The fact is that Jinnah not only used slogans of "Islam" for his own perverse ends, he knew nothing about it, he badly and forever damaged the political power of Muslims in the Sub Continent, and hobnobbed with the feudals and colonials, isolated the Bengali Muslims, and nipped in the bud what could have been a democratically governed Pakistan because having a democracy in Pakistan was not in the plans (though might be in the popular slogans even of dictators like Musharraf)of either the colonials or their man in the West, MAJ.
Regarding de-bhuttofication, ZAB was popular because of his platform, Benazir is leeching off her father's popularity, as is the case unfortunately in our parts of the world where family ties and recognition even overpower gender and ethnic discrimination. Without ZAB charisma and properly communicated agenda, the party is nothing and will become nothing.....while MAJ and his shenanigans were exposed to the people long ago and I can bet you my parker pen that were recognition of MAJ and recognition of ZAB to compete in an election today ZAB would beat MAJ hands down regardless of BS polls, that kind that Manto has been quoting...
#2 Posted by masadi on September 16, 2007 12:52:13 am
The Church of the MAJ is dead in Pakistan, its High Priest is on the run (Maybe on a motorcycle like Mullah Omar)...
#3 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 16, 2007 3:24:47 am
PPPP is nothing but a dramai bazi democratic party...
Bainzair is teh most corruptest lady of the world....
there is no election within party..
BB is life time vaderan and chairman...
PPPP needs brave man like ch Ietzaz Ahsan to lead this party...
Bainzair is teh most corruptest lady of the world....
there is no election within party..
BB is life time vaderan and chairman...
PPPP needs brave man like ch Ietzaz Ahsan to lead this party...
#4 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 6:12:06 am
Masadi,
Bhutto had no platform except self aggrandization. As for your allegations against Jinnah... they would be worth talking about if you had anything substantial. As is, it is worst than your diatribe against the US elite and perhaps the Jewish lobby.
On the other hand PPP has potential... which is why I will vote for it if it can bury the ghost of the Raja of Larkana.
Bhutto had no platform except self aggrandization. As for your allegations against Jinnah... they would be worth talking about if you had anything substantial. As is, it is worst than your diatribe against the US elite and perhaps the Jewish lobby.
On the other hand PPP has potential... which is why I will vote for it if it can bury the ghost of the Raja of Larkana.
#5 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 6:28:35 am
Re: # 1
You would be a sorry man without a parker pen if you did that
While Jinnah's appeal was such that his sister brought together the most disparate of forces in the East and West Pakistan... zulfi Bhutto managed to win elections only by either getting the army to rig them in 1970 or rig them himself in 1977.
While Jinnah's memory has endured... Bhutto is not even the main plank of the PPPP. Even Benazir Bhutto after landing in Pakistan will go directly to Jinnah's Mausoleum not Bhutto's ... on 18th October.
You would be a sorry man without a parker pen if you did that
While Jinnah's appeal was such that his sister brought together the most disparate of forces in the East and West Pakistan... zulfi Bhutto managed to win elections only by either getting the army to rig them in 1970 or rig them himself in 1977.
While Jinnah's memory has endured... Bhutto is not even the main plank of the PPPP. Even Benazir Bhutto after landing in Pakistan will go directly to Jinnah's Mausoleum not Bhutto's ... on 18th October.
#6 Posted by rozaiba on September 16, 2007 7:47:04 am
PPP has much to offer - more than any other political party. And De-Bhuttofication will go a long way in ridding the party of its abhorrent past.
Masadi: Your articles have no intellect, substance or standard what to speak of your comments. However if you try harder and not rely on random and/or spontaneous self-aggrandizing references, you may be able to improve.
Masadi: Your articles have no intellect, substance or standard what to speak of your comments. However if you try harder and not rely on random and/or spontaneous self-aggrandizing references, you may be able to improve.
#7 Posted by bulleya on September 16, 2007 8:23:37 am
Quite an apt explanation of the PPP.....
The day the Bhutto dynasty is out of PPP, is the day it will start turning into a real political party....It may also be the day, when democracy starts establishing itself in Pakistan......
However, I don't share the author's optimism on Bhuttos moving out so suddenly......I have it from the horses' mouths......Benazir has an iron grip on the party.....even moreso than the grip Musharraf has on the Army.....
PPP, at the moment, is a full 100% dictatorship, with no signs of the dicator losing her power.......
Aitezaz Ahsan, Raza Rabbanni, Yusuf Gilani, Sherry Rehman etc. do not have the courage to dump PPP and part ways with Benazir........As the Bhutto name (for some strange reason) still carries a lot of weight in Pakistan (specifically in Sindh)........
The Sherry Rehman's of the world are not politicians.......She couldn't get elected anywhere.......Such individuals are gaining prominence, solely, because they have jumped on the Benazir bandwagon.....Aitezaz Ahsan and Gilani etc. are true politicians, with thier own followings.........Gilani spent four to five years in jail, under Musharraf, without being convicted.......Naveed Qamar spent over two years in jail, under Musharraf, without being convicted.......True political prisoners, who refused to leave PPP.......They must be fuming at Benazir's deal with Musharraf......
Will the have the courage to tell Benazir to take a hike and to then take over the PPP? That is the million dollar question.......My answer is they will not......
The day the Bhutto dynasty is out of PPP, is the day it will start turning into a real political party....It may also be the day, when democracy starts establishing itself in Pakistan......
However, I don't share the author's optimism on Bhuttos moving out so suddenly......I have it from the horses' mouths......Benazir has an iron grip on the party.....even moreso than the grip Musharraf has on the Army.....
PPP, at the moment, is a full 100% dictatorship, with no signs of the dicator losing her power.......
Aitezaz Ahsan, Raza Rabbanni, Yusuf Gilani, Sherry Rehman etc. do not have the courage to dump PPP and part ways with Benazir........As the Bhutto name (for some strange reason) still carries a lot of weight in Pakistan (specifically in Sindh)........
The Sherry Rehman's of the world are not politicians.......She couldn't get elected anywhere.......Such individuals are gaining prominence, solely, because they have jumped on the Benazir bandwagon.....Aitezaz Ahsan and Gilani etc. are true politicians, with thier own followings.........Gilani spent four to five years in jail, under Musharraf, without being convicted.......Naveed Qamar spent over two years in jail, under Musharraf, without being convicted.......True political prisoners, who refused to leave PPP.......They must be fuming at Benazir's deal with Musharraf......
Will the have the courage to tell Benazir to take a hike and to then take over the PPP? That is the million dollar question.......My answer is they will not......
#8 Posted by majumdar on September 16, 2007 8:24:48 am
Manto mian,
PPP is as likely to bury the ghost of the Bhoots as INC that of the Gandhi-Nehru. And remember INC has been unable to banish the ghosts of the Gandhi-Nehrus in spite of the fact that it has a much longer history and a much stronger organisation. The fault I guess is of the people of the sub-continent who themselves have a feudal mentality and are unable to see beyond their mai baap family. The only thing is that the electoral politics would render the mother parties (INC/PPP) irrelevant in the long run anyway.
Regards
PPP is as likely to bury the ghost of the Bhoots as INC that of the Gandhi-Nehru. And remember INC has been unable to banish the ghosts of the Gandhi-Nehrus in spite of the fact that it has a much longer history and a much stronger organisation. The fault I guess is of the people of the sub-continent who themselves have a feudal mentality and are unable to see beyond their mai baap family. The only thing is that the electoral politics would render the mother parties (INC/PPP) irrelevant in the long run anyway.
Regards
#9 Posted by majumdar on September 16, 2007 8:26:19 am
Romair saheb,
Agree with each and every thing u said.
Regards
Agree with each and every thing u said.
Regards
#10 Posted by Ranjit on September 16, 2007 11:32:39 am
Manto writes -
"People like Dadabhoy Naoroji, Gokhale, Tilak, Jinnah, Patel and Mohandas Gandhi (no blood relation to Nehru-Gandhi dynasty) were all famous leaders who had helped build the Congress Party."
Guys, manto wrote a complimentary sentence about Gandhi putting him in the same sentence with Jinnah!! Did the sun rise from the west today? :-)
"People like Dadabhoy Naoroji, Gokhale, Tilak, Jinnah, Patel and Mohandas Gandhi (no blood relation to Nehru-Gandhi dynasty) were all famous leaders who had helped build the Congress Party."
Guys, manto wrote a complimentary sentence about Gandhi putting him in the same sentence with Jinnah!! Did the sun rise from the west today? :-)
#11 Posted by masadi on September 16, 2007 11:39:20 am
ZAB's platform and mandate were the people and they loved and supported him, BB is trying to leech off that support, Fatima Jinnah's platform was her criminal brother MAJ's religious exclusion and seperation platform. That is how the consciousness of the people is manipulated in our society by use of religion and family. End of story.
What happened to the PPP is not ZAB's fault, without him the party was nothing, zero, nada, even today were his association with the party to end, it would become a non factor again, which dont get me wrong would be a good thing because that party has been coopted, that is why the Americans who had a part to play in the killing of her father are now wooing her.
Manto, the High Priest of the dead and buried church of MAJ, wants to perpetuate the desires of the colonials and the feudals by trying to bad mouth, using BS, the only leader we had that went against the local and international elite, in his platform, in his speeches and as much as he could as fact. ZAB captured the spirit of resistance that was sweeping the Third World in the 1960s and 1970s and the defeat of the people by the imperialist forces culminated in his barbarous, illegitmate, unjust hanging by the Zia ul Fcuq, the commander of the US occupation force in Pakistan.
Of course bulleya will try to cloud the issues, he is the spokesperson for this occupation force on Chowk and of course Manto will try to put down ZAB, because he knows that the de-Jinnafication (a term that he perverted to de-Bhuttofication, copying from me) began with the ZAB and has reached culmination because of those efforts. The time for our emancipation is nigh......
What happened to the PPP is not ZAB's fault, without him the party was nothing, zero, nada, even today were his association with the party to end, it would become a non factor again, which dont get me wrong would be a good thing because that party has been coopted, that is why the Americans who had a part to play in the killing of her father are now wooing her.
Manto, the High Priest of the dead and buried church of MAJ, wants to perpetuate the desires of the colonials and the feudals by trying to bad mouth, using BS, the only leader we had that went against the local and international elite, in his platform, in his speeches and as much as he could as fact. ZAB captured the spirit of resistance that was sweeping the Third World in the 1960s and 1970s and the defeat of the people by the imperialist forces culminated in his barbarous, illegitmate, unjust hanging by the Zia ul Fcuq, the commander of the US occupation force in Pakistan.
Of course bulleya will try to cloud the issues, he is the spokesperson for this occupation force on Chowk and of course Manto will try to put down ZAB, because he knows that the de-Jinnafication (a term that he perverted to de-Bhuttofication, copying from me) began with the ZAB and has reached culmination because of those efforts. The time for our emancipation is nigh......
#12 Posted by Ranjit on September 16, 2007 11:40:37 am
Re:masadi#1
"The fact is that Jinnah not only used slogans of "Islam" for his own perverse ends, he knew nothing about it, he badly and forever damaged the political power of Muslims in the Sub Continent"
Masadi, your last part of this sentence is absolutely correct. Jinnah indeed damaged the political power of muslims forever by marginalizing them to the fringes of the subcontinent, while leaving the lion share to an overwhelming hindu majority. This is precisely why Sardar Patel was more than eager to call Jinnah's bluff and precipitate partition including that of Punjab and Bengal.
There is no doubt that in a united India, muslims would have wielded massive political clout, probably by aligning themselves with lower caste hindus. Within a few years of independence, we would have likely seen muslim rule in India again, of course with allies from hindus. We see some of that alignment even today in India, but muslims no longer have the numbers to actually wrest political power.
"The fact is that Jinnah not only used slogans of "Islam" for his own perverse ends, he knew nothing about it, he badly and forever damaged the political power of Muslims in the Sub Continent"
Masadi, your last part of this sentence is absolutely correct. Jinnah indeed damaged the political power of muslims forever by marginalizing them to the fringes of the subcontinent, while leaving the lion share to an overwhelming hindu majority. This is precisely why Sardar Patel was more than eager to call Jinnah's bluff and precipitate partition including that of Punjab and Bengal.
There is no doubt that in a united India, muslims would have wielded massive political clout, probably by aligning themselves with lower caste hindus. Within a few years of independence, we would have likely seen muslim rule in India again, of course with allies from hindus. We see some of that alignment even today in India, but muslims no longer have the numbers to actually wrest political power.
#13 Posted by masadi on September 16, 2007 11:57:46 am
Ranjit writes "Masadi, your last part of this sentence is absolutely correct. Jinnah indeed damaged the political power of muslims forever by marginalizing them to the fringes of the subcontinent"
Jinnah was a representative of the feudals and the colonials he did not care about the Muslim masses, [unlike the ZAB who was the voice of the people against the few feudal families that were controlling politics in Pakistan]- the irrefutable fact of which is his treatment of the Bengali Muslims, and how the common man fared in the West as well, as well as the fact that by setting himself up as King of the country he was anti-people whose only popular mandate was based on religious exclusion and invoking an external enemy much like the US elite are doing these days with Muslims for ulterior motive....His shenanigans have long been exposed, just today I was talking to a retired professor and he said that we did not make this country it was "given" to us for ulterior motive- This outpost of the colonials has been a catastrophie for the Muslims of India both in the Pakistan area and in the rest of the country, and except for the Feudals and the colonials who made us an outpost, nobody else benefitted from this arrangement. I credit ZAB for trying his best to minimize the harm for the common folk, leaders like him are our only hope. Slowly but surely the de-Jinnafication of this society has begun....inshallah...
Jinnah was a representative of the feudals and the colonials he did not care about the Muslim masses, [unlike the ZAB who was the voice of the people against the few feudal families that were controlling politics in Pakistan]- the irrefutable fact of which is his treatment of the Bengali Muslims, and how the common man fared in the West as well, as well as the fact that by setting himself up as King of the country he was anti-people whose only popular mandate was based on religious exclusion and invoking an external enemy much like the US elite are doing these days with Muslims for ulterior motive....His shenanigans have long been exposed, just today I was talking to a retired professor and he said that we did not make this country it was "given" to us for ulterior motive- This outpost of the colonials has been a catastrophie for the Muslims of India both in the Pakistan area and in the rest of the country, and except for the Feudals and the colonials who made us an outpost, nobody else benefitted from this arrangement. I credit ZAB for trying his best to minimize the harm for the common folk, leaders like him are our only hope. Slowly but surely the de-Jinnafication of this society has begun....inshallah...
#14 Posted by masadi on September 16, 2007 12:02:32 pm
rozaiba writes "Masadi: Your articles have no intellect, substance or standard what to speak of your comments."
Why don't you show us what you have produced, all I see is cheerleading with BS comments. If you can't do that, and you surely cannot and have not produced comparable material to my articles then might I politely suggest: shut the hell up
Why don't you show us what you have produced, all I see is cheerleading with BS comments. If you can't do that, and you surely cannot and have not produced comparable material to my articles then might I politely suggest: shut the hell up
#15 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 12:07:15 pm
Ironic that Jinnah who was from a middle class background and rose through hard work, honesty and integrity was according to Masadi some sort of a representative of the feudals.
Meanwhile Pakistan's biggest feudal leader who discredited all left liberal forces for ever in Pakistan Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto is some how the biggest champion of the masses.
And Bhutto who plotted and planned against the Bengali people with the Army and refused to acknowledge their mandate in Pakistan ... was some how a champion of Bengali people as well.
Meanwhile Pakistan's biggest feudal leader who discredited all left liberal forces for ever in Pakistan Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto is some how the biggest champion of the masses.
And Bhutto who plotted and planned against the Bengali people with the Army and refused to acknowledge their mandate in Pakistan ... was some how a champion of Bengali people as well.
#16 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 12:17:52 pm
Dear Ranjit,
Your agreement with Masadi flies in the face of reality.
Atleast for people like me, it was Pakistan which led to a industrialisation and creation of bourgeoisie which would have never happened otherwise. The principle of division of labour would have ensured that this region i.e. modern Pakistan would forever be confined to agriculture and martial pursuits... especially the Muslims of this region while the capital of mostly Hindu and Sikh bourgeoisie would have continued to flow to the stock exchange in Bombay.
In retrospect ... one could hold Jinnah responsible for one major issue: His creation gave people like Muhammed Asadi, who would probably not be more than a havaldar in the United Indian Army, an opportunity to masquerade as "professors" and inundate the world with recycled regurgitated crap in the academic scholarship.
But then again Jinnah had no idea that Masadi's kind lurked in shadows.
-YLH
PS to Masadi: Fatima Jinnah's platform was clearly Mahomed Ali Jinnah's vision of a modern democratic inclusive and egalitarian state for all citizens of Pakistan.
But lets humor you. If it was as you say it was... could you explain why people like Wali Khan and NAP leaders who had opposed the creation of Pakistan because they believed in Congress' vision for a United India also supported Fatima Jinnah?
If you do the math you'll see that Fatima Jinnah - despite awful rigging by Ayub Khan and his flunkie Bhutto- still won more percentage votes than Zulfikar Ali Bhutto did in 1970.
Your agreement with Masadi flies in the face of reality.
Atleast for people like me, it was Pakistan which led to a industrialisation and creation of bourgeoisie which would have never happened otherwise. The principle of division of labour would have ensured that this region i.e. modern Pakistan would forever be confined to agriculture and martial pursuits... especially the Muslims of this region while the capital of mostly Hindu and Sikh bourgeoisie would have continued to flow to the stock exchange in Bombay.
In retrospect ... one could hold Jinnah responsible for one major issue: His creation gave people like Muhammed Asadi, who would probably not be more than a havaldar in the United Indian Army, an opportunity to masquerade as "professors" and inundate the world with recycled regurgitated crap in the academic scholarship.
But then again Jinnah had no idea that Masadi's kind lurked in shadows.
-YLH
PS to Masadi: Fatima Jinnah's platform was clearly Mahomed Ali Jinnah's vision of a modern democratic inclusive and egalitarian state for all citizens of Pakistan.
But lets humor you. If it was as you say it was... could you explain why people like Wali Khan and NAP leaders who had opposed the creation of Pakistan because they believed in Congress' vision for a United India also supported Fatima Jinnah?
If you do the math you'll see that Fatima Jinnah - despite awful rigging by Ayub Khan and his flunkie Bhutto- still won more percentage votes than Zulfikar Ali Bhutto did in 1970.
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