The need for De-Bhuttofication of the Pakistan People's Party

#94 Tolkinin

Ama yaar, you are trying to wake up folks who are PRETENDING to be asleep!

They actually like to sleep. Sleep makes them more comfortable.

Regarding IMs, here is what I think.

Nobody but a moron (because of some unknown reasons, the moron specie is over-represented in my beloved Pakistan!) - I repeat, nobody but a moron - will doubt that the IMs are a vital part (probably the most vital part) of what gives us Indians our identity as Indians! And that is simple reality.

The Pakistani folks can only look in wonder and jealousy and beat themselves on own heads in frenzy on their footi-naseeb!

#95
"As in "Sindhi-Sindhi-bhai-bhai."

Shows your own parochialism. You seem incapable to rising above the indian-indian thing and assume that every one makes decision based on petty nationalism. Jahil.

#96

Look at your country you could not be invented without an Indian muslim nor could you have had as good as with Shaukat Aziz from Agra & musharaf from Delhi

What even if pakistani muslims of Indian origin are not the majority in overseas diaspora ...it is like excpecting 15% of Indian muslims to be equal number to other Indian soft ware enginers as Buuley always harps

#98
[As in "Sindhi-Sindhi-bhai-bhai."
Shows your own parochialism. You seem incapable to rising above the indian-indian thing and assume that every one makes decision based on petty nationalism. Jahil.]

Aah, NOW I get it. Being Sindhi is a form of nationalism! So Sindhi is a nationality. I never knew that the fires of nationalism burn so hot in that Sindhi bosom of yours!

Perhaps the BB could be declared the PM of Sindhudesh - cutting out the Punjabi occupiers from the picture completely. Let the NW tribal people handle their own problems with the USA and let the USA solve those problems whatever way the USA sees fit!

All problems solved. You must be a genius!

HP and TOLKININ

#93 - Why the Muslims in India have not recovered from a loss, minuscule in numbers, in the last 60 years?

I think the muslim community at large was in great shock from the impact of Great Jinnah on their life after 1947 - Some of their relatives and friends were moving to the promised land and Indians were doubting their loyalty. Poor guys became aliens in their own country. May God never put any community under this disastrous situation. I, as Sikh (after 1984), can empathize with their situation.

I am convinced that once rank and file sees the benefits of english education for young kids, they will be as competitive as any other indian.

TOLKIININ is just confirming that.

Yasser, dear boy, what you really, really, really, really need is de-Jinnahification of Pakistan. That needs to be followed by de-Islamization of Pakistan.

After that, everything will be hunky-dory.

A typical morbid brain writes:

#82 Posted by HP on September 16, 2007 3:21:43 pm

What is the success ratio of mulsims in India compared to success of Muslims in Pakistan?

==

Ch HP, how can u compare Muslims in Pakistan with Muslims in India?

Re: # 54
"i have seen enough of india now, to realize that muslims aren't doing too well, there......that would be an understatement....i sit in so many IT meetings, where i am the seniormost muslim......barring the odd azim premji, i see line after line of indian hindus (and christians, for that matter) executives achieving success; but ironically, i see no indian muslims......in fact, i saw hardly any in silicon valley or in my universities...."

Sometimes i wonder if you have really worked in IT/Silicon Valley. I have been working in Motorola for the last 9 years. For every Pakistani Muslim i met, i had met at least two Indian Muslims. I am not saying that this is same through out the IT companies in US. Motorola and the groups that i have worked may be an exception. I am here in valley now and i have 5 Indian Muslims in my friends circle. We goto the Pakistani restaurants like Shalimar and Shaan on every Friday (ever heard of them :)).

I agree that the IT industry does not have the same ratio of communities as the general demographics. One reason could be that a good percentage of Muslim middle class migrated to Pakistan after partition. It will take some time for the middle class to develop and surely it is happening. All i am trying to say is that the situation for Muslim Indians is not all that doom and gloom as you presented.

Btw, the brainless Farzana is not the best brain to tell us the basics in India......she better edcuate herself first b4 she start giving us lectures with her unstable mind.

#55 Posted by anil on September 16, 2007 2:01:11 pm


It is obvious why they are not mentioned in your list. And Azim is mentioned in Arjun and world's lists. He really converted a small unknown vanaspati oil company into an IT giant. His story can be taught at Harvard Business School. Obviously not that of his brother or uncle who went to Pakistan.


According to manto, premji only made it because he has a hindu sounding name....and he hasn't achieved anything really..because his father was already rich...

don't tell manto about how his father's company was smalltime and how premji is a billionaire many times over...richest muslim in "south asia" and 2nd richest muslim in the world...you don't want to pop his self-delusional bubble...

Re: # 91

Pardesi:

"...You are right - Premji was born with a silver spoon and he made it a golden spoon for his kids. It's like Trump or next geneartion of Ambanis. However, credit must be given to whatever he achieved (You know, even Bill Gates's mom helped him by introducing him to IBM CEO before he got his DOS contract, still we can not underestimate his achievments)...."

Well said.

What disgusts me the most is that rather than creating a role model, the shell-shocked Indians, writers included, are ready to trash and put down an icon. The these writers will find other reasons to quote that RSS called "Honorable Enemy". They abdicate responsibility for a few seconds of high.

This icon, I know never paid a bribe to get things done, I mean never.

TOLKININ:
Take a leadership role, a lot can be done.

Restore the pride and accomplishments lost and ignored by shell-shocked generation. Indian markets are expanding, seed the community with education, use technology to transform market access to the products and goods created by the community. Start at the smallest level you can do, just start. There is a skill-set in the community that is unmatched. It is not limited to Bollywood, it exists in Bomaby, it exists in Delhi, it exists, Moradabad, Kanpur, Lucknow, Mirzapur, Benares, Hydrabad.... list goes on and on.

Don't assess and give up by just looking at their income. Look at that they are at the beginning of supply chain, which generates huge wealth. Existing channels don't leave profits in their hands. Purely a business challenge, purely a chance to disintemediate older and inefficient ways, where the profits are lost in the channel.

Re:HP
"Why the Muslims in India have not recovered from a loss, minuscule in numbers, in the last 60 years?"

Most Pakistanis including yourself, Manto and Romair keep asking this question and then compare Pakistanis with Indian Muslims to justify the benefits of partition. Partition was a disastrous, traumatic event that literally tore up the hindu-muslim dynamic across the subcontinent. Until then the two communities were toe to toe, although hindus were ahead in terms of education. They were rivals but they also respected each other and often collaborated with each other. Just look at how many non-muslim friends Jinnah had and how many muslim friends Nehru had, in spite of their competition for ruling India.

Partition resulted in a disaster for indian muslims. The events at that time left hindus and sikhs very bitter at muslims, while muslims in Pakistan could not stand the sight of hindus or sikhs. Pakistani politicians, especially the muhajir politicians, made anti-India hatred a part and parcel of Pakistani nationalism. Starting from education to media to virtually every field, it was all about anti-Indian rivalry. Kashmir was a symptom for that hatred, since that bitterness needed a cause to solidify around. It culminated in the jihadi onslaught against Indian in the nineties.

Unlike Pakistan, India did not adopt a direct in your face hatred of Pakistan as its official policy. That was a decision Nehru made, probably to facilitate a secular India. However, at every level in the society people hated muslims for causing partition and the catastrophic violence, which ultimately culminated in the rise of the BJP in the nineties. Muslims themselves descended into deep depression as they suddenly realized the hole that they had dug for themselves. From a community that was competing head on with hindus, it became a much smaller community that was literally treated as lepers all over the country. In addition, they were themselves consumed with a massive guilt complex for triggering the events of 1947.

In such a situation, it has taken decades for Indian muslims to regain their footing and find their sense of self-confidence to participate in the Indian mainstream. It took decades for hindus and sikhs to get over the partition trauma and finally realize that partition was good for them on the whole. We see a lot more softening of attitudes now. Pakistan has also take decades to heal. Its only now that Bulleyas of the world are willing to deal with India in a pragmatic manner. A decade back, he would not even talk about India except to demand Kashmir.

Therefore, on the whole, it has taken fix to six decades for the passions to cool down on both sides. It is pointless to compare the conditions of Indian muslims since they were caught in that vortex of hatred that followed partition. Had partition not happened, and the two sides had reached a reasonable formula to coexist, the state of the subcontinent would have been completely different. It is impossible to predict how it would have turned out since all that violence and upheaval of partition would have been avoided. Maybe they would have had a bitter civil war. Maybe they would have forged deep relations and restored the pre-British glory of the subcontinent togeter. Who knows??

Selling shikakai soap or edible oils never made them so dynamic, though it made them rich.

It's Azim who diversified te group's business and made it bigger. He's a role model not just for Muslims but for all Indians.

Let dogs bark at the gaints like Azim Premji.

#82 Posted by HP on September 16, 2007 3:21:43 pm


Azim Premji is not a self made man. He owes a lot to a successful business helping create another one. I am sure in between he might have many other ventures that failed.


so premji going to richest muslim in south asia and 2nd richest muslim in the world doesn't count for anything because his father was rich?

mmmkay...

William Henry Gates III was born in Seattle, Washington to William H. Gates, Jr. (now Sr.) and Mary Maxwell Gates. His family was wealthy; his father was a prominent lawyer, his mother served on the board of directors for First Interstate Bank and the United Way, and her father, J. W. Maxwell, was a national bank president.

Jinnah's partition helped India 2 get rid of the ulcer called Muslim supremacy over Indian subcontinent.

Why cant these hijas debate abt the leprosy of their country?........they keep harping/wailing abt India all the time.

Ref Yasser Latif Hamdani #26

[So Hindu Bourgeoisie's departure actually created problems for Pakistan and slowed down the obvious benefits of the arrangement... which is why Jinnah was so adamant about keeping them in Pakistan.]

Yasser, dear boy, Jinnah wanted Hindus to remain in Pakistan so they would be hostages who would ensure good treatment of its Muslim minority by India.

Those are Jinnah's own words.

There isn't enough whitewash in the entire world to cover up the crimes of Jinnah-bhai.