Ramadan Special: Tales of Sufi Wisdom

Dear living Wali Naqshbandi, may your status be exalted amongst chowkies, may Allah grow fragrant flowers where you tread.

The story #3, perhaps comes across a bit...how shall I put it....arrogant? I know that sometimes these stories are a bit much for us uninitiated, and unwashed, but could you please please elaborat that a little bit? I mean there has to be some sympathy for the poor boy? Some comfort for the woman?

It may be my purely ignorant understanding, but these stories are not supposed to be real, right? I mean, these are just...metaphorically speaking, right?

Thank you for considering these question, I remain your humble corpse in waiting.
with much respect,
thinking storm

In pakistan ramadan is is teh day to be remembered for teh slaughter of animals in the backyards and the public killing of camel with galleries set up for the people to watch.

Is there a sufi who said that before slaughtering ",,oh my dear animal, for my sustainence I have to kill you and one day the god that is same for both of us will take me to my killer..and eventually we are all same".

No it cannot be a muslim who can say that, man and animal same god, no not at all. But can be a good thought for the educated pakistanis so that teh backyard killings do not become a nursery step to jihadic killings.

no, these are not metaphors for me but haqiqat. :-)

the third story's moral is that to reach great heights in sainthood one has to go through a lot of suffering and kills ones ego, one's nafs, one's lower animal self. The Shaykh himself spent 25 years or so living in the wild so it was not arrogance. Killing the nafs is at the heart of sufism (and every other religion's spiritual path too).

jay #2 last week you were explaining in full seriousness how as an engineer he understands the need for the nepali hindus to sacrifice goats in hopes of appeasing the airline god. ram! ram!! goat! goat!!

tahmed,

In fact the hindu sacrifices are carried out with the verse in sanscrit that I wrote.

Killing is the law of nature, one cannot create anything without destroying something, that is why lord shiva is the creator and destroyer. The trick is doing the killing with detachment, go and read Gita, if that is not haram.

Sufi9sm is indian and here is a connection between Bangalore and pakistan.

from deccan herald of today

The road is named after Ali Asker, the grand father of Dewan Mirza Ismail, who imported horses from iran. Agha Ali Asker was a Persian nobleman who settled in Bangalore. He traded in horses and Persian carpets and supplied horses to the royal stable. He created the Ali Asker Waqf Estate. Two of his family members namely Agha Shahi and Agha Hilaly migrated to Pakistan and became Foreign Secretaries of the nation.
Sir Mirza's grandson, Akbar Mirza Khaleeli, was Indian ambassador to Iran, Italy and Australia. He has four daughters Zeebeundeh Khaleeli, Sabah Backhache, Rehane Yavar Dhala and Esmath Khaleeli.

This is
[declared in a Hadith-e-Quddsi, where Allah says to the Most Beloved ]Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala Alayhi wa Sallam), “Among the things
that bring My servant close to Me, the ones I love best, are the things
that I have made fard (compulsory). When My servant does nafil ibaadat (optional prayer), he gets very close to Me. So much so, that
I love him very much. When I love Him, I become his hearing ear,
seeing eye, holding hand, and walking foot. I give him whatever he
wishes. When he invokes Me for help, I protect him.” ]

In Bukhari Shareef, Hadrat Abu Huraira (Radi Allahu ta'ala Anhu) reports
the following Hadith-e-Quddsi:


The Most Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu Ta'ala Alayhi Wa Sallam) has said
that Allah said, “Whoever shows enmity to a friend of mine, I shall be at war
with him.”

urs..were never ordered by walis themselves...these are the followers who initiated that.....

*doing all farz ibadat ...then doing nafal ibabdat so much so that....above hadees criteria reached.....

some walis used to pray fajr prayer with Isha prayer wadhu..means whole night not sleeping....

*. Yes...those who do personality worship are "jahils"



*asking help from them instead of allah ....
*attribute some divive qualities to them...
*do rakooh and sajood on shrines and mazars
*and mostly now-a-days...the "Mujawar" of qabar and shrine eat haram from "Nazranai"..sadqa..khairat...this is totally haram....

but aulia never ordered this ...these are Jahil people who all do that....




majority of muslims..

*respect them...

* we are muslims because our fore-fatheres became muslims by them...



*we love them as they spread islam ..in this Indo_pak region of hinduism

we ask only from Allah...not any Wali...though Shah wali Ullah writes..after the death of few aulia...thier rooh..are used for Takveeni-Umoors.....its upon Allah...to give a person a specific thing...either by his ownself...through some other person..through some wali....but ultimately...Allah...will...that superseeds anything..and only Allah...gives...no-body else...



* Majority..if visit mazar..neither ..do rakooh and sajood...just in a sunnah way...recite fateha in a proper way...and ask Allah from anything...its upon now allah to give us...through any mean.....

* Just ..previously..in some thread ...i gave the example of sick person...that if i become ill...and go to doctor...and after the medicatie he give..i becomes perfectly right...its not mean that medicine gi\ve me health...neither its menas that doctor give me health...its Allah...who give me health...but doctor and medines were means ...which come into my good health recovery....

Similarly...everything...from health...to children...from money to success is given by Allah...however sometimes he directly give...sometimes somebody helps us..like friend...who give us money in difficult times...some times its doctor which help us...sometimes...very pious people are given help by Khizar(as) etc..sometimes the rooh of aulia helped him in difficult times.....but ULTIMATELY...not a leaf is broken from the tree without Allah will...just maens are different....

similarly...similarly....

aulia and wali ullah never said that ..worship us...urs on us..dhammal ...band baji...non-shariah like things..women visiting graves..a it is strictly forbidden...and ask help from them...These are Jahil who do all that....

In our sub continents…few sufis ..spread the whole message of islam fa better than hundreds of kings..og mughal..syed…ghulama …ghaznavis…abdalis…nadir shah…and other kings….the basic purpose of them was equlaity..and love with all people regardless of religion..cast and colour..thats why ..in this region…the budhism…jainism.etc cannot be seen today to that extent as islam…about15 crore in pakistan..20 crore in india..and 16 crore in Bangla Desh..and most of them are muslims ..as thier forefathers were made muslims by these sufias…We cannot pay back this debt …of these great aulias and sufias…

But ..along with this..througout a span of 1400 years…a continuous debate of some the tangents of some sufia from the main stream shariah and fiqah scholars..starting from the famous quote of great faqeeh Imam Shafi..to Imam Ibne Tamiyya..Imam Ibne Jauzi…Imam Zahabi..etc etc…

The translation of the Greek literature in Mamoon ur Rasheed period …into arabic ..gave many philosophical mind teasing concepts and debates…clearly be seen in great scholars like Imam Ghazali..master piece Aiyai Uloom …and one and only…Ibne Arabi…plus on the philosophical touch of iran ancient Sassanaid empire amalgfumate to give some superficial properties to Hazrat Ali(ra)….and developing a sect in 15 century in Iran under Safvaid period…though before…Shia Sunni conflict was just the poltical rivaliries of Ummayyads and Hasmies…

Nor was that all…in indo pak..this concept reached in Wadhutul Wajood…in Akbar Peroid…by faizi…Abul fazal…and negation of Sh.Amed Sarhindi…and after beuitiful writings of Shah Wali ullah Dehalvi etc…

But still then..the sufias did that job …islam will proud of them till the doomsday…

i am just an iota of existence to speak about such a ultra high concepts of wadhutul wajood and philosophicl speeches…God bless those great scholars and sufias..and imams…i am not even compareable to the dust of thier feet….so cannot say anything with perfection….

Regarding the differences ..the difference of ioponions is the crux and core of any civilized society…and in golden era of muslim culture in baghdad…Damasqus..Qairo…Spain..and Naishapur etc etc…in Abbasssaids periods….this differnce of opinions prevailed in every field…even in the great faqeehs of all times…4 imams of fiqah..ahle hadees..and other shia scholars….

Point is you can disagree with a person on one pont..not means that ..you can negate his all other achievements ..and good deeds….

am not an expert of any of the above scholar…but Imam Zahabi …himself have written that when somebody asked him about the claim of Ibne Arabi that prophet(pbuh) himself ordered Ibne Arabi to write his master piece “Fasoosul hakam” …Imam Zahabi replied..i cannot belive about the person of such a calibre like Inbne rabai that he will tell a lie in the name of prophet(pbuh)…..

His famoust rather master pieces like Fasoosul Hakam..and “Fathoohatai Makkia” are the most difficult books on philosophical and logical amd mystical subjects of 1400 yeras…only few …in these hundreds of yers fully knew about concepts of his books…so when peple of ordinary minds..dont understand his works..they start “fatwas factories” on differnt personalities….

I am not blaming any scholars liek Ibne Tamiyya..or iBNE jAUZI..ETC ETC…BUT UNFORTUNATELY..STILL…THE SCHOLARS OF SAUDIA..DO THE SAME…AND STRT IMMEDIATE FATWAS OF KUFR AND BIDDAH ON ANY ACT..WHICH ACCORDING TO THEM IS NOT IN qURAN OR bUKHARI sHAREEF…AS THEY ALSO DO “Taqleed” OF iBNE tAMIYYAH..iBNE jAUZI..OR iMAM ZAHABI

point is…diffrences of opinion is the beauty of a society..but fatwas typo things are not right…..The same saudi mind..is willing to low..innocent women and children in Iraq…not only to one sect..but also to Kurds children ..in Karkuk…..although they belong to sunni school of thought…

which islam allows you to kill innocents…..

Sufias are great..and thier efforts for islam is far far greater than those scholars who ..unfortunatley..put a fatwa of “DEVIANT” on them…They have made billions of people as muslims..but Fatwa givers have only created hatred ..nothing else…

true..but blame is on present days “sufia” in habit of eating money…nazranai…chanda…dancing madly over qawalis…and thursday …arrival at the grave etc etc….

it has nothing to do with mysticism…this is just fraud …and whatsoever you call it….

Iqbal..is one of the strongest critic of such “sufism” and oppose it strictly…by saying…..

nikal kat khankaho sai katr ada Rasme-e-Shabiri….

#7-28 Posted by dawa-i-dil,

Excellent ... particularly #28. You are great !!!

Sufis are munafiqoons.

Ask any one of the Wahabbis and Moududi lovers in Pakistan.

They would tell you that sufis would be the next in the line of fire after the Mirzais.

Sufis have been left un attended by these moududi lovers because the hate agenda of eliminating idolators has still not been completed.

But some times these faithfuls consider the munafiqoons a greater threat because they exist inside the Islam and slowly dilutes their cult of hate. That is why these munafiqoons may become the first targets of hate in Islam.
Aurangazeb was clear about it and showed the way to all the Pakistanis.

Sufis are hated by the 'pure' faithfuls of Pure Land because they have slowly and steadily been diluting the agenda of hatred against idolators and kafirs.

Mullah Islam survives on hatred towards non muslims and attributing conspiracies towards non - muslims. If love enters the heart, then mullahs would never be able to spread their message of hatred.

laddu, there is nothing like wahabism. There is either Islam or there isn't. We can argue logically, if we convinced, that wahabism is not Islam, while sufism is.

If love enters the heart? Love for what?


------------
dawa-i-dil,

Nobody is questioning the undoubtedly great contributions of sufis in increasing Islamic population. All Muslims, regardless of background and affliation are united on that. It is the rest of the stuff that people are disagreeing over.


Did the greatest saint Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani Baghdadi REALLY make the deboned chicken fly on command, for instance? And if he did, what had the flying chicken to do with Islam, for another? If these are just stories, what Islamic lessons do they teach?


----------

Asif,

thinkingstorm gave some excellent references on Sufism, but his view seems to be somewhat different from yours. What authentic source or sources would you suggest for understanding sufi concepts, beliefs, and practices? Thanks.

dawa-i-dil, who is often vitriolic when it comes to the Hunud, is in his/her elements here displaying fair knowledge of the Quran.
One wishes dawa-i-dil was a Hindu, at least we would have had some enlightening critique on the Geeta.

Jayp, many sufis may be offended that sufism is an Indian thing, any more than it is argentinian, or moroccan.

Yes, many sufis did their work in India, as dawa-i-dil rightly points out, and took up residence there.

#33 Posted by KaalChakra

...there is nothing like wahabism ...

I had asked this question of the most eminent of ALL chowkies i.e, Saima Shah who had mentioned 'Wahabi' ... as to could anyone kindly explain to me exactly 'what' is wahabism? Since I sincerely honestly do not know ... And not a single response ... :(

If love enters the heart? Love for what?

LoL ... Hahaha :)

zee, a question to ask is whether people will let the greatest saint Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani Baghdadi live in their villages as he sat in his cots eating chicken if deboned chicken did not actually fly? ...

Re: # 33

Read the works of the sufis themselves. Many of the more famous ones are now available in excellent English translations.

Above all:

1. What is Sufism? by Martin Lings. The best general introduction in my opinion for the general public.

2. The works of the greatest saint Shaykh Abdal Qadir Jilani may Allah be well pleased with him and with us for his sake!

http://www.al-baz.com/shaikhabdalqadir/Books_and_Text_of_Wisdom/books_a nd_text_of_wisdom.html

This last link is perfect.

What is the importance of relating such 'fantastical' tales of the saints? It is to encourage us that by obeying God and purifying ourselves we too can fulfil our full potential as human beings and therefore reach the elevated spiritual ranks for which we were created which is to worship God as if you see Him. Once we reach that level a whole another universe opens up and this material universe is shown for the limited 'dung heap' it was.

Wahabism: that sect of Muslims who follow the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahab of Najd, Arabia--an 18th century preacher who was condemned by all the Islamic scholars throughout the world starting with his own brother, Shaykh Sulayman ibn Abd al Wahab. He condemnded largely the previous 1200 years of Islamic learning and scholarship and condemned most Muslims as polytheists and kafirs--except those who followed him ofcourse.

Kaal:

The best way for me to explain it is by using the example of the eletromagnetic spectrum. Upto a few centuries ago we only knew of the visible light portion of the EMS and our experience was limited to that. As scientific knowledge increased and we developed better instruments we were able to detect other vast portions of the EMS at either end, infra-red and radio waves and ultra-violet and gamma rays etc.

The normal human existence corresponds to the visible light portion of the spectrum. The awliya (sufi saints) have access to a much wider range of the EMS. And the 'instruments' which permit them to do so are their purified souls. How do you purify your soul. That is an exact science which the practioners of sufism --awliya--have detailed in their books and not something 'hidden' or secret. It is summarised also in the hadith which dawa-e-dil recorded:
Abu Hurairah, radiyallahu 'anhu, reported that the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, said:

"Allah the Almighty has said: 'Whosoever acts with enmity towards a closer servant of Mine (wali), I will indeed declare war against him. Nothing endears My servant to Me than doing of what I have made obligatory upon him to do. And My servant continues to draw nearer to Me with supererogatory (nawafil) prayers so that I shall love him. When I love him, I shall be his hearing with which he shall hear, his sight with which he shall see, his hands with which he shall hold, and his feet with which he shall walk. And if he asks (something) of Me, I shall surely give it to him, and if he takes refuge in Me, I shall certainly grant him it.'"

[Al-Bukhari]

In short.
1. Be Muslim with a sound aqidah.
2. Obey Allah and fulfil the commands of Shariah.
3. Do extra worship in addition to the fard and the sunnah i.e. superogatory worship.
4. Remember Allah a lot --i.e. a lot of zikr.

These steps will help to purify the heart until the person can 'see' the entire EMS. This can be manifested in the wonders of which the article spake.

5. Having a spiritual guide by taking 'bayah' with a Sufi Shaykh greatly helps to traverse 2-4 and lead one to the higher spiritual stations of the soul.

Kaal, the BEST exposition of this scientific method of sufism is by Imam Ghazali.

Why do I say scientific? Because science is based on falsiable experiments. If the experiments can be duplicated and the same results obtained by others as by the claimant then that hypothesis can be verified as being correct or false. Sufis have left full details of their Path. That is the experiment. It is up to others to follow it and see if the claims are true or not.

:-)

Naqsh bhai, is there any way to see the entire EMS without first

1. Being Muslim with a sound aqidah.
2. Obeying Allah and fulfil the commands of Shariah.
3. Doing extra worship in addition to the fard and the sunnah i.e. superogatory worship.
4. Remembering Allah a lot --i.e. a lot of zikr?

What will you and I see then that we don't see now? Do you think we may be able to make deboned chicken fly?

-----------

Ok - this is a serious question, because as you would agree, doing all those four things (1. Being Muslim with a sound aqidah. 2. Obeying Allah and fulfil the commands of Shariah.
3. Doing extra worship in addition to the fard and the sunnah i.e. superogatory worship. 4. Remembering Allah a lot --i.e. a lot of zikr.) is the same type of EXPERIMENT as one would perform say in a lab one evening. :)

#38 Posted by KaalChakra,

Shushhhh ...

#40 Posted by Naqshbandi,

Wahabi is not a sect ... now start again!

Kaal ...

As to what would make a deboned chicken fly .... you're seeing that all around you. No? But Naqshbandi can't. He's too busy in 'Zikr'. :)

by cutting themselves off from the aqaid of majority of the orthodox sunnis wahabis ARE a sect and a heretical one too. they are the one's whom the Prophet described as those will recite the quran constantly on their tongues but it wouldnt go beneath their throats and that they will leave the Deen of Islam like an arrow leaves the bow.

dear beloved living wali naqshbandi. May Allah exalt your status amongst chowkies, may Allah douse you in expensive fragrant but non alcoholic french perfumes. Ameen.

A question if I may.

Some foolish people have claimed that naqshi is in love with the idea of magic and miracles, and is in love with the sufi saints, but not the message of the sufis.

They offer for proof the fact that even this article is really about how great those sufi saints were and what magic they could perform, and yet offer little about the message of oneness and message of love.

They also state that if you indeed loved the message of sufism, you would not happily "Sect" yourself off as sunni or barelvi.

I am but a gumrah musalmaan. I beseech you to help me answer those gustaakh troublemakers.

I remain a humble living corpse,
with much respect,
thinking storm

INDIA

Ramadan month starts Friday: Imam Bukhari
New Delhi, September 12: The new moon for the holy month of Ramadan was not sighted Wednesday, so the first day of the month of fasting will fall Friday, according to the apex moon sighting committee of Jama Masjid.
[12-09, 20:30 IST]

javab e jaahilaan, khamushi baashad.

preaching love doesn't mean equating truth with falsehood or believing falsehood to be equal to truth.

it is ramadan. i have my own sins to worry about. may Allah
forgive us all.

"javab e jaahilaan, khamushi baashad"

dear beloved wali Naqshbandi (may you be doused in ittar and smell so fragrant that bees mistake you for flowers. Ameen).

The Jaahil continue to pester me wali (ruh). They say, if you indeed use such a wonderful approach of "silence is golden" in retort to jahilliyah, then why did you tell certain gentle hindu brothers to go fuk themselves and stick things up thier arse#?

I tell them that you, in your great wisdom, must have a reason. But frankly, my gumrah brain cannot come up with a reason.

Please help.

with much respect,
thinking storm

Naqsh:

It amazes me how you can believe these stories literally. Anyway, I think that I would differ somewhat with you on your translation of 'baqa'. I think it means "what remains" (as in baqaya) and not "everlasting subsistence of God". This also seems to go more accurately with your parable.

jayp:

I thought that Shiva is Destroyer and the Creator function belongs to Brahma. No?

dmsahib, I don't think naqsh bhai believes these stories to be literally true. On the other hand, if these stories are NOT true, then sufism is not needed. The Quran (and the Prophet's life as Quran instantiated for all Muslims) should be enough.

i do believe them literally and why should it amaze you?

Re: # 49
Thanks, but I thought Muqarram Saheb of the Shahi Masjid was the one who people looked at for the signal

the point is contantly raised here ...for debne chicken became alive...


not go so far...i think in 1900 in india...Peer Mahar Ali Shah of Golra made a challenge to Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani that....of Manazra...about islam and Ahmediat...

Mirza Ghulam agreed....but ran from that Manazra ..as he not reached Lahore Railway Station while Mahar ali shah had reached....

he then said mahar ali...that both of us write a tafseer of quran...the best one will be judged by a neutral and he will be on truth

mahar ali replied...just we sit on two adjacents tables with papers in our front....whose pen raised in the air automatically and start writing the tafseer ..he will be the winner and the other will be a liar....

Ghulamahmed...trembled to hear that....


he then said to mahar ali .....we both do something special...mahar ali replied...both of us jump from the towering minarates of Badshahi Mosque of Lahore..a man who will reach the land safe and sound will be the winner...again ghulam ahmed ran....

then finally he said to mahar ali that...let us both pray for two sick persons..and the from which pray..a sick will recover ..will be the winner....

mahar ali replied...just forget about the sick...bring two dead persons...for one i pray..for one you pray...by which dua..dead man will raise to life again ..who will be winner....


and the Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani than ran in such a way that he never dared to challenge him...


Point is ..when Mehar Ali Shah ..by grace of Allah can show this ...why not Sh.Jilani...and when some person resisted aginst Mehar ali of bringing a dead to life..he replied....i coud even claim something greater than this....

mashallah dawa-i-dil, you proved the living wali naqshbandi (may Allah exalt his status)'s point.

Unfortunately, I lack the brain power to explain these things to the doubting ganwar jahils who doubt these stories.

Thank you for the details and miracles of Peer Mahar Ali Shah.
with much respect,
thinking storm

Dost mitter 52,

My understanding, which I find conceptually sound is that brahma is the creator in a metahysical, ineffable sense that he is the creator of the shiva and vishnu as well. That is why there are no temples ( except bar one ) for brahma, because brahma is inconceivable, ineffable and as such no image can be created. May be one day I have to see the brahma temple in simla and see the image.

For all the humans and in a physical sense, shiva is the creator, because nothing can be created without destroying something else.

There are various statues of the dance of the shiva, and it is the dance that creates and destroys, hence when you buy a "nataraja" statue, check the pose some are good some are "bad" for the house you that keeps it.

Form

Re: # 37

That is the problem with Islam of the Pakistanis.
For them there has to be an onject of Love which they claim to be an imagined formless moon God.
Lahol...... can there be anything more absurd than this concept of love for that imagined moon deity??

Prema or Love in itself is required to attain the truth. Prema dose not require an OBJECT ....howsoever absurd that object may be ......

As it is said dhai akhar prem ka padhe jo pundit hoi .....

these mullahs do not understand that Prema itself is the way towards emergence of light in the heart and realization of the atman.

Prema does not require an absurd object like the fomrless moon deity of Arab.

Discussion about sufism is the most irrelevant at present. The lal majid guys have attacked the elite pak military that attacked lal masjid. This is no more attack on the civilians, or the military in general, this is search and destry mission by the jihadis so that no military will dare to take them on in the future.

This is a challenge of immense magnitude and pak military will not be able to take this on. With more and more troops being taken prisoners, pak army is likely to surrender.

There will be only helicopter attackers in waziristan with all troops removed from the tribal area.

Nasqbandi #39

Hai, you seem to be a real sufi and I agree with most of what you say. You are not saying the stuff properly.

The world as we see is an interpretation that we have acquired since birth. We have been told what is important, what is unimportant, and we have been taught to focus on certain aspects of what we sense. For example, a botanist wlaking in park will see different things than engineer. An arb with 200 words for camel will see something very diffrent than some one who sees a camel for the first time.

So the world we live in is created by each person through a precess of selective focus and interpretation that influences our perception. This is "maya", which many call as illusion. ( this is absolutely wrong, illusion is something not real, while maya is the reality itself, interpreted as a version of reality ).

It is possible that through systematic training and meditation, one can alter the interpretation and thus the perception of what is out there through our senses. It may be possible to experience god, to talk to the dead, travel through time, see the furture...you name it.

The problem though is that to follow this path one has to believe in it, that such things are possible. Because we are talking about the realm of subjective experience there may not be any objective proof, and hence cannot be "scientific". Nasq...I am all along with you and tell me what sufism leads you into.

I do not have much trust in you, because you are an anti ahmadia, you are not open minded, and as such I may reach sufi heaven earlier than you.

Re: # 56

dawa e dil thank you so much for mentioning the glorious name of huzoor sayyid al sa'adat khwaja e khwajagan pir sayyid mihr ali shah golrawi rahmatullah alayhi and his karamat!

once also pir sayyid mihr ali shah sahib were coming back from hajj on a ship and on that ship there was also an english general with his rifle. someone had a little parrot on the ship which was sitting on a wooden perch. pir sahib had a tasbih. pir sahib and the general got talking and the general mocked the tasbih of the pir sahib saying, 'what power is in that tasbih, why do you keep on counting the beads?' pir sahib didn't say anything and kept on doing his zikr. the general carried on talking boasting about the power of his rifle. see this rifle he said, this is what contains real power and he pointed his rifle at the parrot on the perch and shot it dead. 'that's the power of my rifle ' he said mockingly to pir sahib, what is the power of your tasbih. hazrat pir sayyid mihr ali shah sahib, walked up to where the dead parrot lay on the floor and put his tasbih on it. the parrot came back to life and flew away. 'that is the power of my tasbih' said pir sahib! the army officer became a muslim and a murid of qibla pir sayyid mihr ali shah sahib!

subhan Allah! what a beautiful saint of Allah he was who completely defeated the dajjal from Qadian too as bro dawa e dil has shown.

Naqsh sahib,

(walked up to where the dead parrot lay on the floor and put his tasbih on it. the parrot came back to life and flew away.)

You actually believe this happened???


(as bro dawa e dil has shown. )

its sis dawa e dil actually.

Regards

Re: # 62

naqshbandi,

..... please quit while you are ahead and stop making a fool out of yourself ....... as i have said before, your brand of islam is much better than the joyless and beligerent wahabsim promoted by suicidal homiciders like zeemax and urstruly, but you don't have to turn it into a farce ........ let me assure you that a dead parrot can never fly again ....

..... i know it is ramadhan and muslims are supposed to stave themselves, but i would recommend that you eat something before you loose your mind completely ..........

....... i wish you well, even though you are embarassing me ....

Re: # 63

yes!

Re: # 62 thankyou Naqshbandi sahab....

I personally not against any sect ...or with 100% any sect...

i think all depends upon your intention or niyyat....

i personally think.may be it is wrong..there are many moderate wahabis..and there are many extremists Brelvis..who put fatwas factories of kufr etc...

all depends upon personal itention...

Unfortunately...scholars of saudia..i very much respect them...but they have relatively low tolerance level...for other opinions....and they try to impose thier views ....

difernce of opinion is the beauty of any society and must be kept in limits...

there is a hadees of prophet(pbuh) that....

the ulema and aulia of my ummah are like the prophets of Bani Israel....

so if bani israel prophets like jesus(as) have given the power of bringing dead to life....why not Sh Jilani and Pir Mahar Ali Shah....as quoted in above hadees...

Dawa behen,

(so if bani israel prophets like jesus(as) have given the power of bringing dead to life....why not Sh Jilani and Pir Mahar Ali Shah....as quoted in above hadees... )

Why not Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani.

Regards

Naqshbandi: And all along when I was arguing with you, I was arguing with a man who believes that sufis can make dead parrots walk (can they make it talk as well?), and that sufis can see outside the spectrum of light that we humans can see!! I knew chowk was a waste of time, but never expected this..... :-(
Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told.
Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right."

further to #69: actually, you may be on to something with this sufi-bird connection. Birds can, it has been scientifically demonstrated, see outside the spectrum of visible light - and thus see patterns in flowers in unltraviolet colors, e.g., that humans cannot see. So, clearly sufis are descendant not from human beings but from birds!! I see the light now. :-)

#60 Posted by jayp.

There will be only helicopter attackers in waziristan with all troops removed from the tribal area.

Err ... only till they starting using the 'stingers' which they have, but are not using for strategic reasons.

How amazing is it that Dawa Behen is loved by ALL ... just as cliftonbridge is ... these are our two true clear-headed mominas who can act as 'bridges'!

Dawa Behen as a bridge between the sufis and the 'extremists', and cliftonbridge as between them and all the rest!!!

Godbless ... Dawa Behen and cliftonbridge.

jayp

The greatest Muslim saint Shaykh Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani will spin faster than a ceiling fan in his sacred grave to find you pulling naqsh back into Hindu philosophy with maya and stuff :(

jayp, sufism has no value at all - none for a Muslim and none for a Hindu - without those deboned chickens ACTUALLY flying. And those chickens will not fly without naqsh bhai doing all those things that make you unhappy.

If you are a good person, you will reach the heaven faster, but it will be a different heaven than the one to which naqsh bhai is headed, with his flying chickens.

Asif,

Thanks for these beautiful stories. The second one especially. I don't know if I believe these stories but I certainly agree with the message.

The life of Zainulabideen (A.S.) is about nobility and character in face of the worst abuse, harassment and humiliation.

He is a source of great strength for all those people who routinely take humiliation and insult in their stride and keep moving forward.

#73 Kaalchakra: You post to jayp would indicate that you are talking to a rational man. However: Ask jayp about how sacrificing goats keeps planes from crashing. He is no better than naqshbandi in this regard, and plenty worse in other worse - at least naqshbandi has not spent 10 years on chowk berating hinduism or India. On casteism, both are at the same level.

Jayp, does sacrificing goats keep planes from crashing? Yes, may be, or no?

Please share, so we can all see if you are an educated sufi (or an educated Hindu or an educated Muslim).

There are four facts that should be kept in mind before doing anything with such stories:

Fact#1:

There are many ESP phenomenon that have been recognized, recorded and are under investigation by psychologists and parapsychologists throughout the world. However, establishing a link between one's piety resulting in enhanced ESP ability is going to take a lot of work. For details:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-sensory_perception

Fact #2:

Most of literature intended for self-improvement and teaching ethics to readers, that was written in the middle ages by Muslim scholars and writers, was written in allegorical style. There were parables where humans and animals could talk to each other etc. But each story ended with a moral at the end. These writers were the Deepak chopras and Stephen Coveys of their time. A classical example is that of Sheikh Saadi's compendiums Gulistan and Boo-istan. Since printing press arrived in Muslim world quite late so the medium to disseminate those collection of literary works to the masses was mostly verbal. So the people with weak imaan beguiled by chrlatans started beleiving those stroies to be true. substance of stories took over the soul or moral of the stories.

Fact#3

It is a fact that throughout Muslim world, unfortunately worshiping graves and mere mortals because of their real or perceived piety is a business that would make a capitalist salivate his innards out. So it is in the very interest of those who benefit from the fall of this manna from heaven to disseminate misinformation to illiterate people and those with week imaan.

Fact #4

There is no Muslim in the world that has belief in Islam because Holy prophet (pbuh) performed miracles. Every Muslim who has a strong belief, believes in islam because it puts forth the Absolute Truth that there is One Creator who created the whole universe. That is all there is to Islam. No one needs a miracle to prove this self evident Truth. Those who deny this Truth, do it only because of their arrogance and arrogance alone. So our Iman should only be based upon this self evident Truth and not because some pir can fly on his broom.

Urstruly, well said. I wouldn't call these people Deepak Chopras and Stephen Coveys though. They were more like Christian Missionaries of today, who also provide all kinds of psychological and otrher worldly support services to their gathered flocks.

------------------------------

tahmedji,

That sacrificing goats things is a great parallel. Here is a semi-humorous way, IMO, to look at three very different approaches.

Islamic Way: Sacrificing goats to keep planes from crashing is absurd and wrong. It should not be done. If some Muslims are doing so, they are not following Islam properly. It is a cultural practice that people must get rid of. Such practices can lead people astray.

Hindu Way: Sacrificing goats to keep planes from crashing seems absurd and wrong. I would not do it. Some Hindus might be doing this sort of stuff. People believe in all kinds of things. Faith is not a logical thing, and some people will try anything if they can't solve a problem.

Sufi Way: Yes. Sacrificing goats keeps planes from crashing. But these must be a Sufi fed, sufi blessed goats.

Re: # 78

I wouldn't call them missionaries but since the source and benchmark for ethics, ettiquettes, and morals for Muslims is their religion and religion alone, those writers could not help but inject religious ethics into their work. At that time Muslims were free and were not suffering from the inferiority complex that has infected them after colonial occupation which is exhibited all too often by those who call themselves "enlightened moderates".

But what I said about the eraly writers is not the rule but exception. The classical work such as that of Rumi and Saadi is pretty secular and English versions are vailable on the net. it basically addresses the human nature - the nature of jealousy, greed, indignation, cruelty, humility, truthfulness, charity, generosity and of course piety.

Urstruly,

"The classical work such as that of Rumi and Saadi is pretty secular and English versions are vailable on the net."

That's precisely right. Many Muslims (like many others following other religions) often wrote great secular literature - be it poetry or semi-philosophical/mystical tracts. In their personal lives they may nor may not have been 'good Muslims.' But to take all this secular, semi-philosophical/mystical literature and label it as the harbinger of some improved (or distorted) form of Islam not available to "ordinary" Muslims (or any to followers of other religions) is simply wrong.

Re: # 77

urstruly:

I have one serious question.

why to you say the following?

"..Absolute Truth that there is One Creator who created the whole universe"

why is that a "truth". can you convince me that there is only one god that has created this universe. I would like to listen to your reasoning.

"Those who deny this Truth, do it only because of their arrogance and arrogance alone."

it can be said the other way also, those who believe it because of their gullibility and gullibility alone. no?

thats incorrect. i would neither

#80 Kaal

Mashallah Kaal, you are almost a muslim by now. In fact I will give you a muslim name. Henceforth, I shall refer to you as Usman the pious.

You are absolutely correct in your statement that sufism should not be considered a better form of Islam which is inaccessible to the poor (actually sufism is spread heavily amongst the poor), but your point is valid.

In fact, sufism is not supposed to be an Islamic sect. It is just a spiritual and philosophical school of thought. Sufism is important for those that are interested in it. E.g. In some cases, Philosophy may not be of interest to a business man or engineer. However, not studying philosophy does not mean that the engineer cannot live a great moral, accomplished life either.

Usman the pious, hopefully I have been of some help.
with much respect,
thinking storm

urstruly: it is not for humans to know the Absolute Truth. You need to understand the difference between Belief and Knowledge - since only then can you be intellectually honest and a believer at the same time.

Re: # 56 Dawa

I am great admirer of Pir Mehr Ali Shah Sahib. It is because of him that people in Punjab were saved from the Fitna-e-Quadiyaniat. As a matter of when Pir Sahib challeneged Mirza, the later was an undefeated champion on the manazra circuit in those days. Therefore, when Mirza lost the debate with Pir Sahib, it became the biggest news in Punjab and rest of Hindustan. May Allah bless Pir Sahib for his efforts.

Having said that please keep in mind that what traspired betweem Pir Sahib and Mirza was a debate. Manazra is a special kind of debate that goes like a dialogue of arguments and counter-arguments. The issue under debate was Mirza's claim that he was prophet of God; the counter argument, of course was, that he wasn't.

Now if you look at the nature of questions (or answers) that Pir Sahib posed to mirza, it will show the sheer genius of Pir Sahib.

For example consider this reply by Pir Sahib when he agreed to write the Tafseer of Qura'n as challenged by Mirza. Pir Sahib said " (yes lets sit down at tables and write tafseer but) whose pen raised in the air automatically and start writing the tafseer ..he will be the winner and the other will be a liar...."

Now look at this argument. This argument does not provide an industructible proof that Pir Sahib could definitely make his pen raise by itself therefore he challenged Miraz with this test. On the other hand we should see that Pir Sahib was claiming to be nothing but a mortal servant of God whereas Mirza's claim was that of Prophethood; so if things were to come to that that they actually sat on their respective tables and Mirza could not raise his pen by itself it would have falsified his claim of prophethood; whereas if pir sahib could not raise that pen it wouldn't even prove that he himself was a liar because he never claimed such thing. Mirza was trapped into his own net here.

A similar argument can be made with respect to Pir sahib's counter argument to jumping from the minaret of Badshahi mosque. In this case also the burden of proof that Mirza reached the ground safe and sound because he was prophet of God, lied entirely with Mirza. Had the things com to that and both gentlemen jumped from the minaret there was an equally likely chance that both would have died instantly. But in that case Islam would have gotten rid of an imposter and Pir Sahib would have become the martyr who made that happen. This is the genius of Pir Sahib. His argument though should not be construed as the proof that he had the ability to survive the 100 meter fall.

Here I must quote the immortal maxim which goes like thsi:

Pir Sahib nahinH uRtay, aqeedatmandt ki aqeedat unhain uRati hai

Re: # 81 Netizen

In order to focus our dicussion, may I ask whether you are speaking from the position of a polytheist or an atheist, because both take a diferrent argument respectively. The third position is that of a monotheist, which obviously is not your postion. There are only three possibilities.

ts sahib, I take that as a great, although undeserved, compliment. Thanks. Whatever little I have learnt is from the abu bakr of chowk, zee ustaad, whom I genuinely admire. :)

Usman the pious,

I see that you have seen fit to learn the more "orthodox" version of Islam. To each his own my gentle friend :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

Kaalchakra:

naqshbandi says he is a scientist.
jayp says he is an engineer.

naqshbandi says a sufi can make dead parrots walk.
jayp says killing goats can help planes fly.

Moral: getting science or engineering degrees does not mean that pigs dont have wings. or something like that. :-)

urstruly: you ignored my questioning your assumption that you knew the "Absolute Truth". is it that hard to acknowledge the obvious?

Re: # 85

" There are only three possibilities"

what if I say I am an agnostic?

#83 Bro Tahmed

How can one be intellectually honest if one is not a true believer???
How can one be a true believer if one is not intellectually honest???

Re: # 83

tahmed:

"it is not for humans to know the Absolute Truth."

why not??

are humans supposed to know no truth at all or just partial truth?

Re: # 89

I did not ignore your "questioning" but the following statement of yours does not constitute as questioning. In that statement you are only telling me your own position on the issue of the Absolute Truth. So what is the question?

"urstruly: it is not for humans to know the Absolute Truth. You need to understand the difference between Belief and Knowledge - since only then can you be intellectually honest and a believer at the same time. "

Re: # 90 Netizen

Being agnostic is not a position. Have you ever doubted that the computer screen sitting right in front is not a computer screen at all. Have such doubt ever crossed your mind that it in fact is a cow that eats and regurgitates electricity? Or the computer screen in front of you is only "partially" computer screen and rest of it is an egg. If you are an agnostic then what has made you so sure of the existence of the computer in front of you.

ts sahib

Yes. Unorthodox approaches appeared thoroughly unsatisfactory (to me). They never provided anything new, didn't explain anything of substance (beyond offering confined views of their own little niches), and totally failed to do justice to either the great faith or to its many many believers.

Developing an orthodox understanding meant going to the heart of the matter, and from there, one could see everything else flowing out, as it were, in its own merry way.

At another time, would love to get your informed opinion on these and other matters.

Best regards.


--------------
tahmedji

That posed this quandary. Are many of those flying around on beautiful wings just.... pigs (of some sort)?

LOL

(That is not meant to offend anyone - Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isai. Just a crazy thought.).

Re: # 94

urstruly:
"Being agnostic is not a position. Have you ever doubted that the computer screen sitting right in front is not a computer screen at all. "

do you believe that an atheist thinks that there is no computer screen in front of him as he is surfing the web!
or a polytheist believes that there are 2.5 millions of them in front of him?

Let me rephrase my earlier post to you.

I cannot say convincingly that there is a god or not. It seems that you are very convinces about the existence of only one god who runs the entire universe. hence would you please tell me how it works and why he/she/it is the only one.

Re: # 84

Urstruly,

My question to you is without any ulterior motives and is as a Muslim who does not believe in anything other the God, the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH and the Quran ... I hope you will take it in stride.

While I personally do not for a second believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to be a Prophet of God... or any other thing for that matter, having rejected the Ahmadi beliefs all my life... may I ask you if the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) whom I consider the final prophet and messenger could also raise the pen through the air as you've suggested.

Re: # 96

I am only trying to understand the nature of your doubt so that I can put forth a convincing argument. If I do not know what is causing you to doubt then how can address your doubt. Are you doubtful because of some philosophically abstract reasons or are you doubtful because you cannot feel the existence of God with your five senses. As you know we perceive the reality of our universe through our five senses and if we cannot sense something we assume that it does not exist. For example, for us germs did not exist until we extended our sense of sight through microscope. Are you waiting for such a moment that a microsope would enable you to see God? What is your conundrum? Help me out here.

#98
urstruly:

lets talk about my conundrum at a later date. lets try to stick the topic of the Absolute truth that there is One creator who created this universe.
as per your sentence,
"Every Muslim who has a strong belief, believes in islam because it puts forth the Absolute Truth that there is One Creator who created the whole universe. That is all there is to Islam."

My questin again to you is what convinces you that there is only one creator who created this universe.

urstruly:

I hate to go back to your comments on #98 but still feel the urge to respond to it. Hence here my reply. but would still like to stick to the topic at hand.

regarding: "For example, for us germs did not exist until we extended our sense of sight through microscope. Are you waiting for such a moment that a microsope would enable you to see God? "

why not?
if someone can scientficlaly prove the existence of god, just as it was done in case of microbes, I would immediately accept it.
till then i am neither accepting nor denying gods existence.i.e. being agnostic.
hence I am trying to understand your point of view since you are fully convinced of his/her existence.

you don't go around believing in flying pigs because one day we will find a "microscope" good enough to discover them.

Re: # 97 Manto

Perhaps I was not clear enough to make my point. Even a third rate magician who performs at schools or casinos can levitate not only a pen but a whole bachcha jamhoora as well. The forty elders, according to Jewish tarditions, that went to mount Senai with Moses (pbuh) saw God along with Moses with their own eyes and testified to their people but still they went astray. Moses parted the sea in front of whole nation and yet people went astray. Jesus (pbuh) ressurected the dead, cured leppers, enabled blind to see, walked on the water and yet the people tried to crucify him. Similarly several miracles are attributed to holy prophet (pbuh)as well and yet two of his daughters were divorced, he was excommunicated, exiled, physically abused, and was target of assasinations and annihilation through wars.

So the point is that if there is a God and he can enable a man to part moon asunder, or walk on the water, or part the whole sea with his staff, then the question is can't this God simply change the heart of all people so that everyone becomes a believer. What is so difficult with that?

So this argument points us to only one conclusion that the Divine Intention for us is to recognize God through our own menatal faculty. The Absolute Truth that there is One God who created this universe is right in front of us in the form of this universe.

If we keep the above argument in mind the miracles themslves are nothing but a vehicle that may (or may not help you) to get to the Truth. It is your choice whether you ride this vehicle or not. It is same as a magician using his trick of levitating a pen or a person as vehicle to get dollars out of your pockets and into his hat. There is difference between pathway and the destination.

No Prophet of God ever asked people to believe in God because they could show miracles. They always gave the Message first and not the miracle first.

So then the Pir's point does not mean much... since he was the one who wanted the pen to raise which you've already ruled out as credible evidence for prophethood.

Netizen:

If you can refute this you get a convert as well.

The following story is attributed to the great Muslim jurist Imam Abu Hanifa who gave world the science of jurisprudence i.e. art and science of formulating laws.



Once upon a time an agnostic challenged bu hanifa to debate and prove the existence of God. A time and place was set up for the debate. On that particular time whole city had gathered at that place but bu Hanifa was nowhere to be seen. Hours went by and judges were hopelessly waiting to call off the debate when bu hanifa showed up. The agnostic of course boasted and made fun of bu hanifa that he had chickened out. Bu hanifa explained that he did not chicken out, but he was unable to catch a boat to come across the river. He said he waited and waited at the river bank but a boat was nowhere to be seen. At last when he was about to become hopeless and was turning back a tree fell in the river and as soon as the splashing water came down to a rest it had turned into a boat. So that was how he got late and got to the debate finally.

The agnostic was listening to that impatiently and as bu hanifa stopped he blurted out obscenities, ``How the F this is possible-you liar``. Bu Hanifa replied calmly ``if this universe is possible without God then why not a crummy little boat?``.

Re: # 102

yes; it wasn't a challenge to lift the pen at all, instead it was a challeneg to refute the point. But Mirza sahib fell in the trap and "failed" to prove his prophethood instead.

See this is an irrefutable argument. Had Mirza sahib said that "you first", Pir Sahib would have simply said that I am a mere moratl how can I lift it, you are the one who calls himself prophet, you do it. And if Mirza sahib said that "no I can't do it" it would have fasified Miraz's prophethood with his own admission because Mirza sahib had already accepted the premise that one who will lift the pen would be the truthful one and vice versa.

That was an iron clad argument. I think it would help you to understand this being lawyer and all.

it seems that poor chacha tahmed has run off to break his fast. isn't it early to do so?
or may be he thinks it to below his dignity to reply to me :)