Limits of Multiculturalism

dost-mittar #117: "Otherwise, why would the leaders of all political parties in Quebec, Liberal, Conservative and Bloc Quebecois, rush to denounce the poor Election Commission...."

....the answer is quite simple....i don't think canadians have said enough is enough.....i think there is a group in canada, which has said enough is enough......it has been saying it for a long time........this group may have gotten somewhat larger, however, it does not define canada.....

.......the politicians are appealing to this group.....might as well get the votes of this group.....assuming they do not lose any other votes....

which votes are they going to lose......one could assume, they would lose the muslim vote.......but not really......only a small percentage of muslims in canada wear veils......even a smaller percentage supports wearing one to such an extent, where they would make it an electoral deciding factor......

.......so these politicians would lose this vote....it is tiny in comparison to the vote they would be gaining.....however, both these votes are a minority vote...they certainly do not form the basis of the, "enough is enough" statement.....

......what is now missing is the voice of the very liberal ndp side of the fence, which would speak out against such things......not because they supported veils, but because, in principle they did not support the govt. getting into such things......this does not mean they have said, "enough is enough"......it means they have just lost the enthusiasm of making a political fight of it.....

.......this is why, i think your, "enough is enough" statement is quite an exageration......this is one tiny minority (in this case, one woman) vs. a somewhat larger, but still a small minority, i.e the enough is enough crowd....

it is just a legal issue of one individual, which politicians are using to gain some extra votes, knowing that they are not going to lose too many.....now if they tried to take on a sikh and his turban or a jewish person and his yamaka, or a muslim and his beard (or a pathan and his naswar), the impact would be quite different.....as theire would be genuine opposition, from these communities....

.....i think if you polled muslims in canada, hardly any of them thinks one should wear a veil while voting......i worked on an election campaign, for a muslim candidate in ontario.......we won by a landslide.....i stood at electoral centers, and did not see a single muslim lady wearing a veil....quite a few headscarves, but not veils.....

nahi tolki, these arguments - such as Urdu is an Islamic language - are not only totally stupid, but they are downright dangerous to the health and well-being of many people.

Urdu, for instance, is a great language, just as the Taj is a great wonder, but they are beautiful for their own sake, and should be appreicated or not appreciated just on their own. No?

Kal
You have been fighting you own demon.

none is confued for...

DM Sahib,

Yeah, such a fabulous plot! :)

That's why I never go that far. I am no swami, unless I could let it mean swayam am I - I am myself, nothing more, nothing less.
------------------

From the Red Fort to the Taj, from Urdu language to Mughali food are all Indian, so long as none is not confused for anything to do with Islam.

Definitely, definitely not Kabir. Otherwise you begin to mess with people's minds, badly.


echodada, and tahmed sahib, good posts.

dm #129 (being wela this morning, this is a longish post): I think that is a very narrow view of Indian culture, and you need to see it as part of the broader (and richer) story of mankind itself. Virtually everything you mentioned as being "indigenous" to India, is in fact the result of interactions with lands to the west of India. This view elevates Indian civilization so it becomes a major part of the story of mankind itself, whereas the "indigenous only" view reduces it to an enclave culture, which it most definitely was not.

Thus:

Arab invasion led by ben qasim in sindh in fact resulted in some very positive affects - a true exchange of ideas, with indian mathematicians being invited to baghdad where they passed on the numbering system that has come to be called the Arabic numbers in the west since it was passed on to the west from there. And the concept of egalitarianism was introduced in exchange, which represents to my mind the finest contribution of Islam in the subcontinent. Sufi Islam as well has sikhism both have strong roots in the Arab invasion. So, the "Arab imperialism aspect of Islam" has in fact made strong positive influences on India, and in return has cross-pollinated math developed in India to the west and from there to around the world.

Similarly, the central asian invasions from the north contributed to Indian culture - both negative (e.g. ghazni's looting) but also some very positive ways (e.g. mughal adminstrative system, architecture, art and literature).

An even deeper impact was persian for a few centuries prior to alexander, when what is now Pakistan was the easternmost province of the vast persian empire (stretching from the indus to the nile), and even earlier aryan invasions (which gave india mahabharata, which is basically one episode in a much broader picture of the spread of mankind from the west into india). Sanskrit and ancient Persian are closely related languages, as I understand.

Go back even further, to the dawn of human civilization, and you will find the indus valley civilization trading (and no doubt exchanging ideas) with the babylonians (i.e. arabs) and the central asians (evidence of which has been found in the form of harrapan seals in these parts).

While the slaves from India & Pakistan continue ad-nauseum to pick the fluff pap & hokum from their navels , their miserable & wretched destiny keeps on throwing monkey-wrenches into their dreams & desires to become their own photo-negatives.

the hymn of the slaves who pay so that they are not freed.

For just one additional dollar
grant me one more white collar
Look here! I'm not entirely black
There's a white line in my crack
My ancestors paid & paid & paid
so that our mothers could be laid
to get a speck of that shiny white
which would cure me of this blight
of being a shudar while a brahmin
rather, I'll be to be your vermin

We've have thousand years' experience
of letting in our house every caller
Don't you think now in call-center
what we won't do just for a dollar?
__________________________________________________________

Lot of navel gazing and ass-sniffing has gone on here..but how do you suggest to assimilate the goraas who are flocking
and rolling and rocking to become Abd-Allahs..the slaves of no man but only Allah i.e a MUSLIM?

This is an eye-opener for the Multi-CULTURE-VULTURES and
Multi-POTTY_PISSERS.

ACCESS the link & READ!

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070909/NEWS/ 709090362/-1/NEWS01

_________________________________________________________ ___
More Americans converting to Islam
Young people find stereotypes a challenge
9 september 2007

By SUMMER HARLOW, The News Journal
Posted Sunday, September 9, 2007
Drew Marshall could have been any of the dozen or so university students studying and sipping coffee at a Newark cafe.



About 6 feet tall, with a close beard and a light blue shirt, not much about him stands out.



Ahmad (Drew) Marshall, 23, a University of Delaware senior, was introduced to Islam through a class in Islamic art. Raised a Presbyterian in Hockessin, he converted two years ago.

'Ahmad (Drew) Marshall, 23, a University of Delaware senior, was introduced to Islam through a class in Islamic art. Raised a Presbyterian in Hockessin, he converted two years ago.',

The News Journal/BOB HERBERT
http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070909/NEWS/ 709090362/-1/NEWS01

Kaal:

Don't call it Islam if you don't want to, but it still is Indian, isn't it?

"Multiculturalims should be left to those who understand culture to begin with. Like the Saudis or the Malays."

Sometimes, I wonder if you have really started believing what you say. ;)
I am reminded of R.K.Naryan's Guide (the novel, not the film!). The Guide, after he becomes a fake swami and gets a large following, eventually starts believing that he really is a Mahatama who can perform miracles. [you know what happened to him, don't you?]

Here is the difference, DM Sahib.

I too appreciate Kabir, sufism, Lucknowi culture, Urdu language, its poetry and literature, (Mughalai?) cuisine etc etc. Actually, I appreciate them a quite a LOT.

But I do not belive these have even the smallest connection to Islam. There is no such thing as Indian or Japanese "Islam."

Unless we are clear on that I don't know how we are going to manage multiculturalism.

Multiculturalims should be left to those who understand culture to begin with. Like the Saudis or the Malays.

They could've been equally easily greetd by a "Good Morning" or "Subh-Bakhair"!

Reminds me of the chowkie who was extremely offended that that Air India welcomed its passengers with a namsate. How bigoted and intolerant of Hindus to impose Hinduism on Indian Muslims! (No, it was not Farzana Versey, believe me).

dm sahib, # 129 takes the cake.

Kabir was a follower of Islam. This must be some Islam that only Hindus know about.

But if sufism can be islam why not Pat Robertson's religion, or mine? Or Hare Krishnas.

Of course, Urdu is an Islamic language. And Urdu literature is Islamic literature. There is Islamic Art (art by Muslims). And Islamic food.

Yesterday, lunch was a good serving of Islamic food.

Wah re Indian "Islam."

nb#123:

I distinguish between the Arab imperialism aspect of Islam and the indigenous aspect. While I am no sympathiser of the former and have written against it, I do celebrate that aspect of Islam that developed in India and was nourished by the native soil. I am referring to the Kabir panth, sufi music and culture, Urdu language, poetry and literature, Art, cuisine, etc. They are as much Indian as Ramayan and Mahabharta.

Harimau

Anna, there is nothing unusual or exceptional in that case. Anything else, would be, actually and truly, a surprise.

We criticise Malaysia because we Indians, Hindus specifically, ourselves have no clue what multiculturism is.

Sometimes it is better to get out of our frog in the well mindset. Let's conduct a poll on Chowk asking people which country is doing a better job of managing multiculturism - Malaysia or India. I don't think Malaysia would fare as badly as Indians might imagine.

Ref kaalchakra #113

[I think a country that understands multiculturalism better than most is Malaysia.]

Since you are absolutely clueless about Malaysia, here is a sample clue.

Thursday May 31, 3:22 PM
Malaysian woman criticises court in religious conversion row

AFP

The woman at the centre of a religious controversy in Malaysia has accused the country's highest court of denying her fundamental rights in rejecting her bid to be legally recognised as Christian, her lawyer confirmed Thursday.

Lina Joy's comments came a day after Malaysia's Federal Court rejected her attempt to win recognition of her conversion from Islam.

Joy, 43, had sought the removal of the word "Islam" from her national identity card.

But the Federal Court, the highest secular legal body, threw out her case and said only an Islamic sharia tribunal could legally certify her conversion.

"I am disappointed that the Federal Court is not able to vindicate a simple but important fundamental right that exists in all persons," she said, according to her lawyer, Benjamin Dawson.

Joy was referring to the right to believe in the religion of one's choice, and the right to marry a person of one's choosing.

She cannot legally marry her Christian partner because Malaysian law requires non-Muslims to convert to Islam to wed a Muslim.

"The Federal Court has not only denied me that right but to all Malaysians who value fundamental freedoms," Joy said.

"I am hoping that my case would have made a difference to the development of constitutional issues in the plight of many others."

Dawson told AFP that he and Joy were considering their next move but the options were very limited.

He declined to reveal Joy's whereabouts, saying she just wanted to be left alone.

While a coalition of Muslim groups welcomed the verdict, rights activists said the court had failed to address concerns over religious freedom in the country.

A member of parliament for the Chinese-based Democratic Action Party (DAP), Teresa Kok, called for a constitutional amendment that would make explicit the civil courts' superiority over sharia courts in all matters.

Islam is Malaysia's official religion. More than 60 percent of the nation's 27 million people are Muslim Malays.

But while the constitution defines the ethnic majority Malays as Muslims it also guarantees freedom of religion. The country's minority Chinese and Indians are mostly Buddhists, Hindus or Christians.

Joy's appeal to the Federal Court centred on whether she must go to a sharia court to have her renunciation recognised before authorities delete the word "Islam" from her identity card.

In his verdict, the chief justice said the National Registration Department (NRD), in charge of issuing identity cards, had the right to demand that the sharia court certify Joy's conversion.

But the only non-Muslim judge on the three-member judicial panel disagreed.

Judge Richard Malanjum said the NRD's demand was "discriminatory and unconstitutional," and it was unreasonable to expect a person to "self-incriminate" herself before a sharia court.

Renouncing the faith is one of the gravest sins in Islam.

The court's verdict comes amid mounting racial and religious tensions in multiracial Malaysia, where minority religious groups fear their rights are being undermined, even though the country is traditionally seen as moderate.

source: http://sg.news. yahoo.com/ 070531/1/ 48xs7.html

dm sahib, numbers are one of the basic currencies of cultural power in any individualistic polity. The other is relative level of commitment to the separate group itself.

A multicultistic polity that doesn't understand the role of group power in shaping group behavior is simply blind as a bat.

---------------
mohar,

Saudi Arabia does practise multicultism better than any other country.

Have you EVER, EVER heard of religious riots there?

EVER heard a Saudi Arabian Hindu complain? A Saudi Christian complain? A Saudi Jew complain? About even the smallest, tiniest issue?

I haven't. Now compare that with India - where we claim to have coped "amazingly well." It houses the world's champion whiners. Always has, and will (like sadna, you may call me a whiner too. LOL).

Malaysia may not be as lucky as Saudi Arabia. But given whatever it is stuck with, it is doing a great job of managing multicultism.

Only when they have as many religious riots as they have, as many people killed, and places of worship destroyed, will we be able to say we can barely match them.