Limits of Multiculturalism

teshah #177 One could of course argue that since Salman al-farsi was already of an egalitarian bent of mind, that aspect of Islam is what attracted him to become one of the early muslims in the first place. In other words, reverse the cause and affect as per abu jahl, as beautifully put into words by Iqbal.

btw, I had a bit of trouble translating this beautiful farsi verse from Iqbal that you provided (there is no internet support available), and this is the best I could do with a little help from a farsi-speaking friend:

In egalitarianism, in mawakhaat, he is an ajmi
I know very well that Salman is a follower of Mazdak

If you have the chance, I would very much appreciate the meaning of the word "mawaakhaat" above.

This central message of Islam (i.e. individual responsibility before God, which provides the foundation for egalitarianism) is no doubt alive and well, despite the superstructure of autocracies/dictatorships that has plagued muslims societies for centuries and to this day, not to mention the "spritual hierarchies" and priesthoods seeking to defy this basic message of the Quran with their calls for muslims to toe their political lines rather than to exercise their individual conscience. At least it exists at time of prayer, as (to quote Iqbal again:

Aik He Sif Mein Kharay Ho Ga'ay Mehmood O Ayaaz
No Koi Banda Raha Na Koi Banda Nawaaz

tr:
The master and the servant in one line
And the difference between the ruler and the ruled was forgotten.

SC writes in his ilog “I am amazed by the quality of our leaders, past and present. They are never wrong and always have solid rationales for their actions - not to mention 4th and 5th level contingency planning.”

Not too different from the US talking the "democracy" talk and walking with the dictators and the mullahs...this merely reflects that our "leaders" have been socialized well into their status position by the US elite...

#176 Posted by dost_mittar on September 23, 2007 8:12:37 pm


the audience was mostly Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs, but also some Pakistani Muslims (and at least one Mohajir, actually a well-known Urdu poet). The organizers were mostly Sikhs and some Hindus and the same was true of the speakers and singers.


see a theme here in your multi-cultural nirvana example?

#179 Posted by echoboom on September 24, 2007 5:46:27 am


From Him we come & to Him shall we all return.


It's been a while but that sounds like it was plagiarized from the bible..

dost-mittar #176: "I had the pleasure of attending two multicultural events this weekend........ Yesterday, I went to the "Shahan da durbar.......Today, I went to a function organized by the South Indian Cultural Association."

........you have far too much free time on your hands.....you need to start doing something productive.....

"You have added to my knowledge......"

......if i had a dime for everytime someone said this to me, i would be a millionaire......

" I had presumed that Chaudhris of Gujarat were feudals. In any case, neither of them is either hari or muzaira"

......you had obviously presumed incorrectly......chaudhries of gujarat and from the family of a police constable.....they have made a financial fortune though, due to their massive corruption.....this is how musharraf keeps the whole pml(q) on a leash....he has corruption cases agaisnt all of them, sitting in a cupboard......after nawaz sharif, one could argue chaudhries are the second most corrupt group of politicians (benazir being less corrupt than nawaz sharif, though still quite corrupt).....

as for being a hari, nawaz sharif's father, "abbaji" was a brick kiln worker...perhaps as bad, if not worse than being a hari or mazara (though i have been neither of the three)........abbaji ,later, went on to run pakistan, via his two sons, and built the largest corporate empire in pakistan; albeit through corruption........

"...As for recognizing chamar or bhangi in Pakistan, it is easy; any shoe repairer you see on the street corner is a chamar and any sweeper you see on the street is a bhangi....."

...don't know of too many mouchis and sweepers making it big in pakistani politics.......it is too dominated by feudals.......mqm could nominate one, and he would get elected.......mma probably has the lowest economic level of individuals as its elected officials.......ppp and pml are all represented by rich and famous; most of whom don't work for a living.........

Dost M writes "Islam might have been egalitarian in the context of the seventh century Arabia but I wonder if it can still be called so, considering that it permits slavery, treats non-muslims as second class citizens and allows men to have four wives and unlimited kaneezes while the poor woman has to contend with only one husband and the inequality continues in the heaven. :) "


These are cheap shots based on stereotype that you level against the most egalitarian system, religious or otherwise that the world sees at the Hajj and as it exists in its only source book, the Quran

Regarding slavery, which was widespread at the time, in fact the political economy was deeply vested in slavery, abolishing it "cold turkey" would be more disastrous than beneficial, therefore the Quran establishes a gradual transition to an alternative system by i) making obligatory the freeing of slaves as expiation of even the most minor transgressions ii) stating that freeing the slave is one of the greates good that anyone can do iii) by encouraging the use of Zakat funds by the state to free slaves iv) by encouraging the master to intermarry the slaves v) by encouraging the "master" to convert the slave into a contract worker by giving the emancipation term limits to pay the debt owed.

Regarding treating non-Muslims as second rate citizens, where did you get that from? Some Guru sahib? There is no second rate citizenry, in fact in most all arguments in the Quran, the non-believer is considered socially equal not inferior to he believer, only those non-believers are condemned who attack Muslims because of their faith, the Muslim is required to give Zakat to the state for redistribution, the non-Muslims since they don't pay Zakat give Jizya for state service- so there is no difference here as well.

Regarding women, in a political economy based on male labore renumeration, as in the US even to this day, where the woman's status and wealth is determined through marriage while the man's through his paticipation in the labor force, encouraging women to marry more than one man would be economic injustice, not to mention that since women's life expectancy is higher than mens, more women would be left single and at older ages. Therefore the Quran while suggesing monogamy as the only "normal" option encourages polygyny ONLY when it is done among the oppressed or 'Yatama' class of women. Saying that this is reproduced in heaven is BS, the verses talk about 'companions', and most every discription of heaven in the Quran is presented as an example, it is allegorical.

When commenting about Islam, make sure you have read and understood the Quran, merely quoting "pundit hates" and Fox News Channel wont do...

Pakis choke again!!!!

Go India!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shipsha:181

Nice try!
BUT...
No one denies or disowns their hindu past..the converted ones regret that past, they are ashamed of that past and they want to make sure that future generations do not rapeat that past. It is remembered well, etched in memory..as a lesson.

But again:
"Isn't it a shame Hindus do not know their own stuff. Disowning one's past will NEVER make one modern."
while claiming to be hindus(wink wink)

Saith Dollar damrRee laal, Ghaanslatevalaa has achieved nirvana bliss because of IT, and Pundit Chattowpaddhaay is now busy collecting bhikshaa on his website.

Re: # 179

"Isn't it a shame Hindus do not know their own stuff. Disowning one's past will NEVER make one modern."

How about those Muslims who deny and disown their
Hindu past?

nb#178:

"People are acting as if they have personally met the One True god and taken them to tea. It is just as possible that there are five gods as five hundred as one.
However, dost-mittar, you of all people should know the advaita theory goes back far before there had ver been contact with islam."

Being an agnostic, I have taken no stand on one God, three Gods, several gods or no gods. I am, of course, aware that the Hindu scriptures do talk of One God with several manifestations. But as you know, Hindus have no ban on "shirk" and they also talk and worship several gods and goddesses.

I do understand the Sikh Japji Saheb and it defines God in the same term as echo quotes in his #179. Indeed, a prominent Arya Samaji (whose name escapes me now) once said that in the Japji Saheb, Guru Nanak has encapsulated the message of the Vedas.

As far as duvaita, advaita, my simple mind is unable to fathom the mysteries of these concepts.

thank you nb for, hopefully, drilling some sense into these heads.

"Geeta meiN hai Quraan, toa Quraan meiN Geeta"
..........................................ALLAMA IQBAL

Isn't it a shame Hindus do not know their own stuff. Disowning one's past will NEVER make one modern. It would simply turn you into a wandering phantom devoid of Soul.
Innah Lillah hay va Inna ilahay RajiooN.
From Him we come & to Him shall we all return.

Denying this will always keep one restless & in anguish whenever their is a quiet moment. The busy bodies ( "successful" types) keep on humming the lullabies of achievements to try put this wailing infant inside them to sleep....but its keeps echoing & haunting them even in their dreams. Peace or serenity, Silm or shaant , Salaam or Shaanti, Islam or Suukh will ALWAYS elude them.

" Raat bhur jaaGtay rehtay haiN duukanoaN kaycharaaGH
dil voh suunsaan jazeera kay bujhha rehta hai
Lekin iss bUnd jazeeray kay kisi goashay meiN
zaat kaa baab-i talismaat khuulaa rehtaa hai
Upnee hee zaat meiN pUstee kay khanDar miltay haiN
Upnee hee zaatmeiN ikk Koh-i-Nida rehtaa hai
Sirf iss KOH kay daaman meiN mayyasar hai nijaat
Aadmee varnaa anaasir meiN ghiraa rehtaa hai

......Aur phir Uun sey bhhee ghabraa kay UuThhata hai nazar
Apnay Allah kee aur apnay Khuudaa kee Jaanib


************************************************************
The following verses from the Upanishads refer to the Concept of God:

1.

"Ekam evadvitiyam"
"He is One only without a second."
[Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]1
2.

"Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]2
3.

"Na tasya pratima asti"
"There is no likeness of Him."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]3
4.

The following verses from the Upanishad allude to the inability of man to imagine God in a particular form:

"Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."

"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]4

============================================================
and here is the same in Quraan:


"Qul Huwal-Laahu Ahad.
Allaa-hus Samad
LUm Yalid
WalUm Yoolad
WalUm Yakul Lahoo
Kufuwan Ahad."

tr:

Say, He is Allah, the One.
Allah is All Independent.
Neither He begot anyone nor He was begotten.
And none is equal to Him in any way.

People are acting as if they have personally met the One True god and taken them to tea. It is just as possible that there are five gods as five hundred as one.
However, dost-mittar, you of all people should know the advaita theory goes back far before there had ver been contact with islam.

Re: # 163

tahmed

Thanks for your informative and thought provoking comments on egalitarianism in Arabs. I would like here to quote a couplet from Iqbal attributing a statement by Ummar-bin-Hishsham, alia, Abujehl, which I think is very much relevant to the topic:

"Ein massaawaat, ein mawaakhaat, Ajmi ast
Man khoob mi daanam Salman Mazdaki ast"

Abujehl had said egalitarianizm which was an alien Ajmy concept, was preached by the prophet due to the influence of Salman Farsi, who according to him was a follower of Mazdak, who was a contemporary of the prophet. This was refuted by Quran by saying that (I quote) "They say he is taught by a man but that man is Ajmy, i.e., he does not know the language of the Quran (?)".

The Good Multiculturalism:

I had the pleasure of attending two multicultural events this weekend. Yesterday, I went to the "Shahan da durbar", an event sponsored by the Punjabi Heritage Foundation. It was to celebrate four pre-eminent sufi poets of Punjab - Shah (Madho Lal) Hussain, Shah Mohammad, Waris Shah and Bulle Shah. The event was graced by the deputy high commissioners of both India and Pakistan; the audience was mostly Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs, but also some Pakistani Muslims (and at least one Mohajir, actually a well-known Urdu poet). The organizers were mostly Sikhs and some Hindus and the same was true of the speakers and singers. And yet, all four poets were Muslims from what is now Pakistan. So, here was multiculturalism working to unite two hostile groups and trying to provide a healing touch to the deeply inflicted wounds.

Today, I went to a function organized by the South Indian Cultural Association. Here, the children of immigrants showcased their talents acquired in the difficult art of Bharat Natyam and other South Indian classical dances. It showed the dedication, passion and devotion of the parents to pass their cultural heritage and the pride was equally reflected among the children. An interesting feature of such events is the presence of a couple of white Canadians among the learners; indeed a professional Bharat Natyam dancer in Ottawa is a French Canadian woman.

shishapa#169:

"What is this obsession with one god?"

This obsession is because the monotheistic Islam and Christianity conquered most of the world. If the more civilised but pagan and polytheist Greeks had won over the more barbaric Christians, this obsession would not be there. Neither Islam nor Christianity won over the stubborn Hindus but they did get an inferiority complex, hence this attempt by the elitist Hindus ("cantonment kuttas" to use echo's term) for this me-too-monotheist effort.

Pardesi#159:

I agree with everything in you post, except one. The militarisation of Sikhs, started right after the martyrdom of the fifth Guru, with the sixth guru, Har Gobind, assuming meeri and peeri and assembling his rag-tag rebellious fauj.

I have visited the Punja Saheb (60 miles from Islamabad) and have my picture in front of the mark of the hand. But like you, I am still a skeptic. Incidentally, there is a similar story about Guru Nanak and a lesser-known gurudwara. It is known as Gurudwara Pathar Saheb in Leh, Ladakh. The legend has is that a bad man - a raakshas - did not like the Guru and rolled down a rock on the Guru while he was meditating. The rock struck the Guru but acted just like a wax and the Guru's back left a mark on the rock. I have seen and taken a picture of this rock also; it does look having an indent like a human back. But I am still a skeptic.