Democracy, not terror, is the engine of political Islam

To say that if idolators say that :

"The Almighty is going to save me = The idol is going to save me"

Is the most stupid and mischievous stereo-typing of and an idolater's faith.

This stereo-typing goes on to expose the blatant mis-representation and propaganda that Islam has been spreading against pagan idolators since ages.

Re: # 107

I do not think why should an idolator in an Islamic state be discriminated against??

I am a human being first.

Does that imply that Islam does not treat al the humans equal?

Re: # 105

Naqshabandi Saheb,

I was not referring to apostacy because I did not profess to Kalima and the muslim faith in the first place. Apostacy is an internal matter of the muslim community.
But I am referring to But-parasti which is an essential part of my religious practice and Dharma.
So, I am referring to kufr of believing in multifarious forms of Adi-Shakti and making multi-farious representations of them in murtis and other iconic representations.

If you believe that your Allah is going to punsih me with hell for that then I am ready to face that hell but not give up my Dharma.

That is alright with me if you just hope that I go to Jahannum and do not actually commit violence against me in THIS world.

Re: # 102

Zee Saheb,

This has been claimed by all the zealots since ages and is based upon blatent mis-representation and stereotyping of idolato's faith.
NO idolator believes that idol/representation = God and hence the idols are going to save them.
This is actually the view of the nastikas or those who do not believe in almighty.
To impute the view that Idols = God is a Rakshasa view of my idolator faith.

DEMOCRAZY- PAKISTAN ESHTYLE

In any democratic country the govt will do anything to get people support, teh so called populist actions. In pakistan, the case is the opposite, the govt is refusing to take action against the hoarders. While the tahmeds are discussing teh religion and democracy, pl do look out and see the reality of pakistan, and it is pathetic .


Cabinet split over wheat crackdown



By Mubarak Zeb Khan


ISLAMABAD, Sept 22: Federal ministers are divided over a proposal to crack down on individuals hoarding wheat as they feel that action against “some influential people” could create problems for the ruling party in the general election.

According to a report submitted by intelligence agencies a few weeks ago, a number of “major players” are stockpiling wheat. But the government is hesitant to attach “top priority” to the scandal because of the election factor.

Sources told Dawn on Saturday a Karachi-based minister stunned the last meeting of the cabinet’s Economic Coordination Committee (ECC), headed by Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, after he alleged that a textile mill owner had stockpiled 100,000 tons of wheat.

According to the minister, businessmen — owners of textile mills and petrol stations included — having an adequate storage capacity were involved in hoarding the commodity.

The revelation prompted another minister, from Punjab, to advise the government to avoid launching such an operation ‘for the time being’. He said it might ‘upset influential people’, creating ‘problems’ for the government in an election season.

laddu i guess the question you're asking is if an islamic state comes into being in pakistan what will happen to apostates like you who admit their apostasy?

i don't think anything would happen as long as you kept your belief to yourself...

laddu to be blunt, if you've chosen to reject the qur'an then you cannot complain on judgement day when you are led to the hellfire.

laddu

the question of predestination is a subtle one. it is certainly not as you've described it. 'God, in His infinite knowledge already knows what we will do, but His knowing it does not mean that at the time of the action itself we are not free to choice whether to do it or not'.

About your apostasy. I'll let Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad (formerly Dr. Tim Winter of Cambridge Uni.) speak as he explains it brilliantly:


2. HOW DOES ISLAM DEFINE APOSTASY? IS IT PERMISSIBLE FOR A MUSLIM TO CONVERT TO ANOTHER FAITH? HOW CAN LAWS AGAINST APOSTASY AND BLASPHEMY BE RECONCILED WITH THE KORANIC INJUNCTION OF “NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION”?

Traditional human communities believe that truth leads to salvation, and error to damnation. It is probable that very many religious people in a variety of denominations still believe this. Historically, religiously-faithful princes have therefore seen it as necessary to use the coercive power of the state to forbid apostasy. One of the most powerful and persistent manifestations of this understanding in history was the Inquisition, which was definitively abolished in 1834. Protestant countries also respected this drastic principle; in fact, the first converts to Islam in Britain were impaled on stakes. In a Hindu context, ‘apostasy’ was often classified as violation of caste rules and boundaries, and similarly drastic consequences could follow. After the Mongol sack of Baghdad in 1253, Buddhists who converted to Islam were routinely put to death.

The four canonical schools of Sunni Islamic law, and also most pre-modern Shi’a jurists, recommend similarly drastic penalties, although the judge is enjoined to ‘look for ambiguities’ in order to avert the death penalty wherever possible.

The Ottoman Caliphate, the supreme representative of Sunni Islam, formally abolished this penalty in the aftermath of the so-called Tanzimat reforms launched in 1839. The Shaykh al-Islam, the supreme head of the religious courts and colleges, ratified this major shift in traditional legal doctrine. It was pointed out that there is no verse in the Qur’an that lays down a punishment for apostasy (although chapter 5 verse 54 and chapter 2 verse 217 predict a punishment in the next world). It was also pointed out that the ambiguities in the hadith (the sayings of the Prophet) suggest that apostasy is only an offense when combined with the crime of treason. These ambiguities led some medieval Muslims, long before the advent of modernisation, to reject the majority view. Prominent among them one may name al-Nakha’i (d.713), al-Thawri (d.772), al-Sarakhsi (d. 1090), al-Baji (d. 1081), and al-Sha’rani (d.1565). The debate triggered by the Ottoman reform was continued when al-Azhar University in Cairo, the supreme religious authority in the Arab world, delivered a formal fatwa (religious edict) in 1958, which confirmed the abolition of the classical law in this area.

Among radical Salafis and Wahhabis who do not accept the verdicts of the Ottoman or the Azhar scholars, it is generally believed that the majority medieval view should still be enforced.

The best discussion of the controversy is the book by Mohammed Hashim Kamali, “Freedom of Expression in Islam” (Cambridge, 1997).


Zeemax:
Yes, we do.
:-)

Re: # 95

Mr. Berk is out of his depth. This is a subtle point of islamic theology. The concept is called hadhir wa nadhir. (in urdu hazir nazir -lit. present and witnessing). omnipresence is another english translation but it gives slightly the wrong meaning. to answer the question you asked, we believe that it is POSSIBLE for the Beloved Prophet to be present in a milad gathering but we don't believe that he is always present at every one. Hadhir, as we understand it, means the Prophet has been given the ability by Allah to travel anyway he wishes whenever he wishes; nadhir means that he is witnessing everything going on in the world as if he were looking at it in the palm of his blessed hand.

I hope that answers your question. Do not take your religion from orientalists.

Here is an article by Shaykh Gibril Fouad Haddad -- a Lebanese Sunni on this issue of the Prophet's 'omnipresence' which shows that it is not just a 'Barelvi' belief but the traditional belief of orthodox Sunnis before Sunnism was hijacked by the neokharijites.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/hazarnazar.htm

God bless Shaykh Haddad! I love him!

Re: # 101

"hat'd mean that idolators chose to deny God's teachings because of their malintentions or vested interests in the system of idolatory"

Zahid Saheb,

As I said earlier that I have read Quran and have rejected that message , there is nothing wrong in doing so in this modern world. For an idolator like me , there is nothing 'true' about the Islamic metaphysic of winged houries, pshychic prophets and that formless moon god on his throne some where in the eight world. They are as 'false' as the metaphysics arising out out of entities that my son watches on the cartoon network.

Furthr, I think this pre-sumption of my 'mal-intentions" as an idolator is a result of that message of Islam that imputes all sorts of conspiracies and wrong intentions on part of idolators like me.
I do not worry about whether you believe in some god with 1000 names which mean nothing in reality or not ? If that makes you happy , good for you.
I am only worried whether you would start blasting bombs on my head in order to plese your formless god.

#99 Posted by laddu,

Your punishment is an excruciating death by the sword :) Just to prove that your idolatry and your idols will not save you ... :)

Hope that partly answers your question till Naqsh arrives :)

Re: # 99

Laddu Sahib, the doctrine of predestination expalins why're some elected and some not. It's God's will though prima facie looks bizarre that God would create some only to throw them later in the hell. But the history of mankind reinforces this view whichg is usually vehemently denied by Muslims as they believe in the absolute free will of the human being and on the basis of this man's responsibility toward God.

Islam tends to avoid the issue of fate and like in a book of law builts its system of thought on the basis of free will and that'd mean that idolators chose to deny God's teachings because of their malintentions or vested interests in the system of idolatory though they got ample opportunity to learn about Islam as in India where idolators could hardly deny having not seen or known a Muslim

Re: # 99

Naqshabandi Saheb,

This question is with respect to your so called Islamic State or society.

Re: # 94

Hey, Naqshabandi Saheb,

What would be the treatment met out to idoators like me who have already read Quran and rejected the message and consider it to be a message of hate and submission to slavery.

Please tell me if your Allah can ever reveal himself to idolators like me....and if the nur would descend only on sword waving , wiling to die 5 times praying devouts like Zee and Ech??....
tell me , if Allah has made me an idol loving idolator who does not believe in that formless moon deity, why did he choose me for sealng my heart only??

Naqshbandi,

Well ... at-least we agree on the Islamic revolution. That's some progress. We can agree on the modus operandi later ... :)

#85 Posted by rf786,

Good point. However Rasheed Ghazi was not a militant, but merely an agitator. He had tried till the very last to prevent the disaster which he knew would follow if a storming took place, but failed, and then said go to hell. In the aftermath it is clear he was sincere and knew exactly what would follow.