Musharraf the Out-smarter

re: stuka (various posts)

Stuka, my response to your pet theory (i.e. Pak Army created Hindu hegemony myth) are just two simple questions:

1. Did Indian Army invade Kashmir in January 1948 or not?
2. Did India invade East Pakistan in Dec 1971 or not?

You are either confused about historical events, or the definition of "hegemony".


re: HP

I agree we are deviating from the topic i.e. Musharraf and his power games. The media is a double edged sword. It exposes Army generals when they try to sack judges they don't like. But it also exposes Hindu bigots who seek to distort history & legitimize the actions of Indian Army.

The issue in Pakistan today, is Musharraf's dual office. If he can doff his uniform, most Pakistanis will gladly accept him as president and the economy will continue to grow by leaps and bounds. Civil society in Pakistan is smart enough to understand the crucial role of Pakistan Army in nation building and national security. But society wants the army to assist civilian leadership, not replace it. Musharraf's uniform remains the only obstacle to that goal.

#120 Posted by KaalChakra:

Kaal:

I am very surprised at myself. I have been reading some of my more recent posts and it sounds like I am a great admirer of the Indian army and very satisfied with the Indian polity. This I am sure is due to the influence of my Pakistani friends here in chowk.

Yes, I am happy that we are crawling towards a better form of democracy democracy. I kind of feel nice when I see people like our own Qasmi (from Chowk) use democratic tools. But the Indian defense establishment? .... With all the toys, the most coveted post is that in 'supplies', Delhi. Huh, and the Pakistanis are scared (head scratching ikaan).

GT, toys is the best description there is for all this weaponary.

For influential Indians, these are just another means to make them feel better, bigger, and safer. And who has ever found a limit to how good, big, or safe one wants to feel?

This is how all nations and their militaries operate. If romair could only ask why that most perfect of all nations, the ever peaceful, peaceable, and brotherly China would want to buy anymore weapons, he might be less confused by what India is trying to do. Or may be he has been out of touch with Pakistani state and Pakistani military for too long.

Major General Riaz Jafri has just issued a press release on behalf of the Musharraf government: "Damned civilians, what!! General Musharraf can Out-smarter them anyday!!"

GT #116 Lord Zang Jindabad!!

hamidm: Field Marshall Baron Von Romair will disguise himself as the dot-man and Outsmart - and in fact OutsmartER you!! - with a pincer movement!!

115 Posted by hamidm2

Could you take out mohar11 too? I like his posts and all that stuff but can't bear the smiles he inserts into each and every sentence.

Oh! and Romair,

With all those toys that the Indian navy floats on the sea what do they do? Capture a few Pakistani fishermen every month (to be returned the next month to declare 'peace')? The LTTE has been doing the same with rafts! Zeeeez .... or Jeeej as zang would say.

..... i think we should drop a couple of bombs on india just to get rid of arjun ....... but than they might want to do the same to get rid of the insufferable romair (who is now trying to hide behind a new nick, bulleya) ...... come to think of it, it might be worth it ....

Bulleya:

I read the first line of your post stating that I was not accurate ... and I went Omigosh! Of course I was not accurate.

1. We have our own army killing our own people in Kashmir and Assam. Few years back it was also Nagaland and Mizoram. You know what? As an Indian I am ashamed. There is a general understanding about this problem in the affected regions and pressure is indeed being exherted through local politicians (this pressure is genuine unlike the pressure exherted by International Agencies because the local pressure pinches hard in electoral politics). So with time even the Central govt. is now concerned. The PM is openly talking about it. More and more army guys are being brought to court (not necessarily justice). It is not enough. But there is some hope that more will be done in the future.

2. I could not carefully go over the rest of your post and the one following. Neither could I go through all of zee's. The reason is simply that I am not interested in all this offense defence non-sense. Toys are being bought, produced and advertized. Sections of the population are jumping up and down in glee and sorrow like bozos. Meanwhile lot of money is channeled to a few pockets. I of course have no problem with the joy or sorrow that toys provide. I simply do not care. But yes, I care if a simple colt is used to maime or kill a Kasmiri or Assamese.

So there.

zeemax: India is no longer a threat - it's ability to overrun Pakistan militarily was neutralized due to the development of nuclear weapons.

So, to be realistic, one should focus on the South Asia situation as it prevails today, not as it was prior to 1998. Today's reality is that the threats are internal to Pakistan (i.e. individuals seeking to become unaccountable rulers, rather than servants who can be fired in elections by the Pakistani people). And today's reality is that the outside world including India now provide opportunities for the Pakistan government to better serve its people through collaboration in economic activity with India and other neighboring states around Pakistan as well as with the rest of the world.

As for the nuclear bombs, perhaps one day we will see mankind come to its senses and get rid of them.

#108 Posted by bulleya,

Correct, but you're missing the essential difference between the two nuclear doctrines. Pakistan focuses on sub-kiloton tactical nukes (the max it tested was 20 kilotons, and many sub-kiloton weapons tested went undetected)) to be used on its own soil with barely a kilometer radius as defense in case of an incursion, while India chose big bombs. That was stupid on part of India because theirs can never be used.

Wasn't mushy tasked with getting Siachen way back in the late 80s? How'd that go?



India starts Siachen trek despite Pakistan’s protest

* India, UK ignore protests over joint wargames
* Indian defence minister says Indo-British military exercises not to provoke Pakistan

SRINAGAR: A trekking expedition has left for the heavily militarised Siachen Glacier in disputed Kashmir, despite objections by Pakistan, the Indian army said on Wednesday.
“The first of its kind expedition left for Siachen Glacier on Tuesday,” army spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Anil Mathur told AFP. He said the 43-member team included civilians, men from the army, journalists and students from several military training schools.
Mathur said it would take some 20 days for the trekkers to make the trip to the 6,300-metre high Siachen Glacier, a battlefield occupied by Indian and Pakistani troops since 1984.
Pakistan last week protested to India after the trek was announced as a first step to opening up Siachen to tourists, warning it could hurt the peace process.
Experts say India has around 5,000 troops on the glacier, while Pakistan has less than half that number.(case closed Pureland is spending much more than india when you factor in ability to spend money) Harsh weather and the high altitude claims many more lives than actual fighting over Siachen.
Pakistan also lodged protests with Britain and India over a joint military exercise in Kashmir’s Ladakh region, of which Siachen is a part, last week.

Disputed wargames: Indian and British troops are going ahead with their high-altitude wargames despite the protests, an Indian defence official said on Wednesday. Elite forces from the two countries began training this month for mountain warfare in a three-week drill called “Himalayan Warrior” in the icy heights of Ladakh, upsetting Islamabad, which also claims the region.

#104 Posted by zeemax on September 27, 2007 4:18:37 am


you trip the wire, we fire!



That's what got you thinking you could sneak up on the vacated mountains of kargil without eliciting a response...as the slow-rotting abandoned bodies of you soldiers will tell you, that's not necessarily true...

you're building up your army because you want to TAKE what you don't have..indian-kashmir... India has never shown any inclination to take Paki-kashmir...now to give legs to your kashmir banega pakiland wet dream, you need to spend on your military..or rather, your military needs to spend on itself...to the point where you have the military only strong enough to topple civilian governments..

#108 Posted by bulleya on September 27, 2007 5:26:32 am


so unless our indian friends can give a reason for why it is being purchased


Why are they buying the weapons? Cause they can...cause they spend a smaller % of GDP on their military than pureland..and they already have a better education system than pureland, something pureland desperately wants to spend it's limited resources on..

why are you buying F-16s with tons of restrictions on them? It's not like you have the b@lls to use them against India if you pull another kargil? You'll need them against the baloch or the tribals who're handing your army it's posterior even as you bloviate?

zeemax #: in my opinion, pakistan needs to take the following steps, for a deterent:

.....it needs to totally scale down its conventional deterent and move to a totally nuclear deterent, until either india makes peace with pakistan a-la usa/canada, or india scales down its offensive military power.....i don't see the second happening at all......and indian doesn't seem to want the first, unless it is totally on its own terms.........

....the indian conventional military budget is too huge for pakistan to compete......and it is growing exponentially....as mentioned, below, i cannot see any use of its offensive weaponary against china, bangladesh, sri lanka or nepal......so unless our indian friends can give a reason for why it is being purchased, one has to assume that:

a) india has struck oil like saudi arabia
b) india is building up its offensive forces against pakistan
c) billions of dollars of offensive weaponry looks good in national day parades

.......whether pakistan loses a conventional war in one week or one month, the result is the same......hence draw down all conventional forces, thereby reducing their influence in the domestic political and business areas.....the conventional army should be enough to fight for a few days, and then a nuclear deterent should come into affect......perhaps an army of 150k people (one third its current size)......

the hardware should be targeted towards nuclear delivery systems, like missiles, aircraft etc......pakistan should match india on nuclear delivery systems.....it can on missiles and aircraft.......however, if india goes to submarine launched systems, then it will be very expensive for pakistan......

......pakistan air force is already defensive in nature.......it does not have any strategic offensive weopons, and a few tactically offensive weapons.......nearly all the aircraft are to protect pakistan against an attack, or at best to support the army....i suppose the number of aircraft could be reduced, while concentrating totally on nuclear delivery.....

.......the navy is tiny to begin with......it cannot do much.....

after that, pakistan should simply have the same tactics as the nato had against a much larger ussr and its allied forces.....i.e. first strike nuclear ability.....if india starts a war, pakistan defends, conventionally, as long as it can.......after which it uses tactical nukes and then strategic nukes.......india will do the same, and it will result in Mutually Assured Destruction.....this will ensure india will never be able to actually use its offensive weaponry........

.......in a sense the above is the current situation......the only differnce being that despite the fact that indo-pak conflicts have entered nuclear domains, pakistan refuses to downsize its conventional military, while india refuses to stop increasing its conventional military........the current indian army is nearly three times the size of the us army!

the military-business enterprise is very alive and well in south asia.......it is the second poorest geographical region in the world, with the second lowest human development index........but it is one of the largest (if not the largest) net importer of arms in the world........with india, leading the way by a huge margin.....

Re: # 105

Don't know about the Indians, but if we had "raised Dacca" and punished those responsible, we would not have had to suffer the likes of Colonel Jafri today.