A Sad Day for Pakistan

Yawn.

#252 by Yusser

Arab Society- the cradle from where Islam emerged- had a strong matrilineal tradition... Islam while stamping patriarchy did not do away with the women altogether. Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH)'s family continued through Hazrat Fatima (AS). Hassan and Hussain are known for their maternal grandfather... the naming convention which takes father's last name is of recent import. According to Islamic theology on the day judgement we will be called by our mother's names."

The real question is why are Indians so embarrassed of their mothers... I believe the DNA codification says we are much of our mothers as we are of our fathers. Thus choosing a last name is also a similar prerogative which lies with the person who is choosing his last name. Whether one takes up one's father's last name or mother's should be upto the individual. In my case I have taken both my parents' names...because I am proud of both of them. It is also the reason why I insist on not just Yasser Hamdani... but Yasser Latif Hamdani. Hats off to my parents who have always allowed me these choices.

So Yasser mian has now made the ultimate U-turn (it is been quite a while, but I came to know about it just now because of the above post). In addition to abandoning religions and his erstwhile heroes, he has now made the mother of all U-turns, abandoning his native traditions for an Arab one. With such a stellar record of U-turns, wouldn't it be more apt to call him Yusser instead of just Yasser?

While projecting the adoption of his mother's last name as being with the noble intentiion of recognizing the contribution of his mother to his birth, the fact is that Yasser mian is desperate to show that he is very different from the his compatriots (Arbi/Persian background and all), the dirty Pakis.

Dear Majumdar,

Arab Society- the cradle from where Islam emerged- had a strong matrilineal tradition... Islam while stamping patriarchy did not do away with the women altogether. Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH)'s family continued through Hazrat Fatima (AS). Hassan and Hussain are known for their maternal grandfather... the naming convention which takes father's last name is of recent import. According to Islamic theology on the day judgement we will be called by our mother's names.

When a third rate achoot freak from Hyderabad who can't argue on facts gets up and tells me : "Unlike you, I wouldn't adopt my mother's surname even if she were Jhansi ki Rani, because that does not make me into something I'm not. " ... to me it is indicative of the sickness that epitomises Indian culture.

The real question is why are Indians so embarrassed of their mothers... I believe the DNA codification says we are much of our mothers as we are of our fathers. Thus choosing a last name is also a similar prerogative which lies with the person who is choosing his last name. Whether one takes up one's father's last name or mother's should be upto the individual. In my case I have taken both my parents' names...because I am proud of both of them. It is also the reason why I insist on not just Yasser Hamdani... but Yasser Latif Hamdani. Hats off to my parents who have always allowed me these choices.

-YLH

Majumdar,

Kharish is pathetic. I don't have time for him. As you can see beyond the absolute necessity of countering a lie, I feel no need to respond to someone as disgusting as him.

Thank you.

Majumdar bhai, Yasser mian promised me not too long ago that he wouldn't respond to anything I say. Another U-turn :-)

The way he continues to make U-turns, very soon I'll probably have to name him Yusser and not Yasser :-)

#247 by MantoLives

In Pakistan... it is not unusual to find people with friends right across the spectrum... hence Ahmadi kids befriending wahabi kids even is not a big deal.

Sure Yasser mian, you don't have to convince us. It could well be true, but you don't have to rush in to clarify everything. I just said "maybe". But then, the way you jump in does give rise to suspicions if that you were unfortunate enough to have been bullied by the neighborhood kids.

But I am guessing some people would have a lot of problems with Brahmin kids screaming achoot achoot.

Yasser mian, unlike you I won't disown my caste/creed/religion even if were the lowest of the low, because I'm not a mercenary who would do anything for material benefits. Birth is just an accident, I could just as easily have been an Achoot or a Brahmin or even an Ahmadi. If there is one thing a person should be proud of, it is his/her own accomplishment. Unlike you, I wouldn't adopt my mother's surname even if she were Jhansi ki Rani, because that does not make me into something I'm not.

Hmmm...., another derby in the making.

Regards

In Pakistan... it is not unusual to find people with friends right across the spectrum... hence Ahmadi kids befriending wahabi kids even is not a big deal.

But I am guessing some people would have a lot of problems with Brahmin kids screaming achoot achoot.

PS: The fact that you brought in your dad's Maybach in reference to Azim Premji's humble Ford Ikon as some kind of mine-is-bigger-than-yours boast is further proof of this deep-rooted inferiority complex. You sure need some serious psychiatric treatment and soon at that.

Yasser mian, it was never about Gandhi. It was about your desperate attention-seeking antics. Gandhi/Jinnah is merely incidental to my post. Maybe that bit about being abused by your neighborhood kids was true and struck a raw nerve? Nice try, but no cigar...LOL!!!!

kharish mian,

That post (taken as it was partly from Abu-Safwaan's post) was no answer to my questions.

Let us humor you. Lets say I am all that you desperately want to believe I am... then why are you still so hot and bothered by what I think of the racist casteist hindu fascist misogynist supremacist subcontinental nazi "Mahatma" Gandhi?

My reference is to these two statements:

"Wolpert is human, makes mistakes and can be forgiven. Gandhi was not LOL"

and

"Yasser mian calls it evolution and we all agree even the most bone-headed men like him do evolve, but the problem is that he isn't willing to concede the same for others."

Why does it matter so much to you what I think about the half naked fraud- not that I wasn't willing to change my opinion subject to evidence which you failed to produce.

YLH,

Pakistan was created for islam. The most significant islamic conflict is palestine-israel. Three major islamic countries are invited, and pakistan is not one among them. The palestenians want india to the there, can you believe, a muslim country wants a hindu india, and not pakistan created for islam.

Do you thnk this has something to do with TNT, the MFJs lasting contribution to islam, that muslims cannot live with people of otehr religion.

"Abbas urges US to invite India to peace conference

Jerusalem, Oct. 5 (PTI): Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas has urged US to invite India, among other countries, to the November Middle East peace conference.

Inviting India to the conference, which is to be held at Annapolis in US, would provide it "broader international legitimacy", he said."

YLH 240

AS you praise MFJ as the gretaes man, spare a thought for the country he created based on his doctrine of TNT. Read this opinion piece from dawn of today, and tell the chowk, what this man is talking about, teh school books taht glorify Ghazni, the k for kafir education envisaged by MFJ, the core of his TNT theory that founded pakistan.

The man has to be remebered for his contribution to history, and see for yourself the pakistan.

from dawn of today, opinion section

"The question is: why this tolerance of extremism and hate of the other in the most hideous form? The answer perhaps lies partly in political exigencies of the current regime, combined with the glorification of the bigots in our history books. Consider that 11-century bandit Mahmud of Ghazni, who was credited with bringing down idols as he invaded India, raided only those Hindu temples which were laden with gold and other ornamental wealth. Once his empire took hold in the subcontinent, and the rich temples had been laid bare of their gold and silver, idol worship carried on unhindered."

Yasser mian, you may continue to accuse others of having complexes, but the way you indulge in monkey-like antics to seek attention clearly shows the massive inferiority complex you suffer from. The way you play to the gallery, the way you proclaim your patriotism, the way you espouse Jinnah, the way you boast about your riches (what kind of fool would go so far as to claim that his dad drives a Maybach to prove his social standing? LOL!!!) all abundantly prove your constant need for approval. Maybe the fact that you were born an Ahmadi and probably were mistreated by your neighborhood Sunni Muslim kids in your childhood could be contributory factors, but you should seek help before you do irreparable damage to yourself and your family.

PS: You can rest assure that I was very glad you visited the thread. Apparently you've been beating yourself up silly for attention ever since.

Harish mian,

What you've written is as usual those snakes in your head speaking. Inferiority complex is when the raison d etre for your life is to cheer some foul-mouthed interactors' abuse against another person for merely expressing a point of view contrary to yours... You've been banned countless times for abusing me and my famly...

One wonders why you want me to forgive Gandhi ... when you've declared that he is a great person acknowledged blah blah? The long and short of it is... that you've never been able to argue on facts, so you cheer people atif2, thinkingstorm and countless others... you need constant reaffirmation because otherwise that inferiority complex overburdens you.

-YLH

#237 by MantoLives

Have I backed down on Jinnah, ML, Pakistan etc?

Yasser mian, given your penchant for making U-turns, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if you did that one day.

As for evolution... I am more than happy to grant it for the racist casteist hindu fascist bigot Gandhi provided you give me evidence of his "evolution".

C'mon now Yasser mian, no one is pushing you to "grant" something to Gandhi. Gandhi is one of the greatest persons the world ever produced in the last century and your granting or not granting does not make an iota of difference to him.

However, he is human and he can make mistakes (like his claim that Kanji was parsi... or in Zulfi Bhutto of Pakistan where he mixes two speeches of Jinnah's).

You're tying yourself up in knots. Wolpert is human, makes mistakes and can be forgiven. Gandhi was not? LOL!!!!

Still you haven't quoted a single thing from Wolpert that can be considered "indictment" of ML or Jinnah etc. There to one suspects lack of quality education on your part.

Yasser mian, I think you've forgotten or more likely, you're upto your usual lies. We were having this cute little discussion about who started the DAD violence, which is when the indictment came up. If you go back, that should clear up all the cobwebs from your mind, that is, if there is one.

The suit thing apparently scalded you so much that you commented countless times without any "Egging" on from me... but you had to post here as well.

Hahahaha!! Yasser mian you're so funny you should try your hand at doing stand up. I was never in the discussion at all. Instead it was your own compatriots who were making fun of you. Even at that point, you were paranoid at me visiting the thread. That should reveal who was scalded, shouldn't it? LOL!!!

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you suffer a deep seated inferiority complex ... when it comes to me.

Yasser mian, inferiority complex is when you need to post others' pics to prove how good looking you are, and you did do that, didn't you? Inferiority complex is when you need to boast on an anonymous forum that your dad drives a Maybach, that you were educated at Rutgers, that you are one of the "top lawyers"..LOL...in Pakistan.

Majumdar,

Well said.


Harish mian,

You are not worth my time. However, since you are obsessed and prone to repeating the same lies I must point out simple facts... I am not sure how I change my opinions to suit the audience. Is the audience all anti-Bhutto now? Am I supposed to hold all opinions I did at age 18 or 19? Have I backed down on Jinnah, ML, Pakistan etc? Even Imran Khan who I have supported for more tha 10 years... criticising him on one point or the other does not mean not agreeing with -when in each such post I have clearly held the view that Imran Khan is perhaps the most honest politician around. The problem with you is that you are too dishonest of an interactor to have an iota of shame or dignity. Either that you think agreeing and disagreeing with some has to be total and zero sum.

As for evolution... I am more than happy to grant it for the racist casteist hindu fascist bigot Gandhi provided you give me evidence of his "evolution". It is your failure that is responsible.

As for Wolpert... he is a very good writer who wrote in my opinion the best biography on Jinnah (Jinnah of Pakistan) and I have always quoted him and will continue to do so. However, he is human and he can make mistakes (like his claim that Kanji was parsi... or in Zulfi Bhutto of Pakistan where he mixes two speeches of Jinnah's).

Still you haven't quoted a single thing from Wolpert that can be considered "indictment" of ML or Jinnah etc. There to one suspects lack of quality education on your part.

The suit thing apparently scalded you so much that you commented countless times without any "Egging" on from me... but you had to post here as well. Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you suffer a deep seated inferiority complex ... when it comes to me. Look I don't have anything to do with you. I am merely here expressing my point of view. If you don't agree with the point of view, do so civilly. There is no point becoming an obsessed maniac, posting 20 posts about me every day.

There is one major reason which in my opinion has made this judiciary criminally negligent of their duty. In the past they never had the people and lawyers behind them. They had to make decisions with no public support and under Marshal Law. Even Zulfiqar Bhutto, certainly the most popular leader was hanged by judiciary and yet there was no public outcry at that time. Army was in full command of the situation. Judges did what was expected of them. Now the situation is different. Entire legal community was behind them, people were behind them and yet they have again repeated what they have always done.This decision is perhaps rhe worst decision in the long history of bad decisions

Folks

Leave Jinnah alone. He made a mess of everything ....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Jinnahs_daughter_cant_claim_property_ Centre/articleshow/2430299.cms

Jayp,

(You must be a very young indian)

34.

(I know personally of several people who gave up their wealth, their jobs etc in support of the freedom struggle.)

Most of then wud be dead now. It is 60 years since independence and assuming they were at least 25 at 1947, they wud be 85. No wonder at least I have not seen them. I presume u wud be much older so wud have seen them.

(The millions who marched with gandhi and beaten up were the real heros.)

Maybe they were. But had it been not for the millions of Germans who got killed fighting for the "white Aryan racist, fasicist, bigoted freak" we wud still be singing Rule Britannia.

(India has a system of pension for the freedom fighters, there are hundreds of thousands of them)

Most of these people are frauds.

(, and they have also given preferences in jobs for the children of freedom fighters.)

OK. So they got the benfitts, rite, so no need for them to crib about it.

(I do read here people of your genration rediculing the Nehruviabn socialism)

Lots of countries have created a strong industrial base and the equivalent of IITs without having to go thru Nehruvian Stalinism. Besides even if it was necessary at some point of tiem it far outlived its utiltity. Leftism shud have been dumped by the late 1960s if not eralier.

Btw it is not only people of my generation who ridicule Nehruvianism there were lots of people who criticised socialism rite from the start including people like Masani, Rajaji and the rest.

Regards

Majumdar 312,

You must be a very young indian, I know personally of several people who gave up their wealth, their jobs etc in support of the freedom struggle. The millions who marched with gandhi and beaten up were the real heros.

India has a system of pension for the freedom fighters, there are hundreds of thousands of them, and they have also given preferences in jobs for the children of freedom fighters. To say that there are not many who fought with Gandhi and sacrificed for teh freedom, is a tragedy of the indian schooling system.

It is possible that the new IT generation who have got high salaries at young age forget that the foundations were laid by people like me, who strived against all adversities to create a value system that rates education highly, and have acheived many things simply because of our efforts and tenacity.

I do read here people of your genration rediculing the Nehruviabn socialism, you have to remember that the IIts and HMTs and Sindhris would not have come up if india had gone for the capitalism. It produced transient growths like in pakista, philippines etc without an economic foundation.

One can hear of pakis crying about their great past in the 50s, only to evaporate later because it did not have a basic structure of an industrial base. It is Nhrue that did it, what he called the "temples of modern india".

people must be egging him on because he is better than them...LOL!

Harish,

Prolly, yes ;-)

#230 by VRV

Yasser does change opinions and as u saw on UP that he thinks that his wearing a suit shames Indians to death & there are some empty-brain aunties/uncles prodding this vainglorious behaviour. Phew!

Yasser is the "tamashe ka bandar" and a lot of folks egg him on just to watch him make a spectacle of himself (like on this suit thing), but Yasser thinks people must be egging him on because he is better than them...LOL!

Harish,

U are right abt the analysis. Yasser does change opinions and as u saw on UP that he thinks that his wearing a suit shames Indians to death & there are some empty-brain aunties/uncles prodding this vainglorious behaviour. Phew!

What a vanity!

228 by VRV

Are u any different from Masadi?

Of course Yasser mian is very different from Masadi. Masadi is a honest guy who believes in what he says. OTOH, Yasser mian changes his views to suit his mood/audience or both: until not so long ago, ZAB was the greatest Paki ever born (second only to Jinnah) but now, he is the scum of the earth. Not too long ago, Imran was a characterless guy, now he is the next great hope of Pakistan (next of course after Yasser mian himself). A couple of years ago, Stanley Wolpert was God: every word he uttered was the gospel truth, now he thinks the man sometimes was wrong, especially if it seemed to be indicting ML or Jinnah in any way. Of course, Yasser mian calls it evolution and we all agree even the most bone-headed men like him do evolve, but the problem is that he isn't willing to concede the same for others.

Manto,

Are u any different from Masadi? Whoever disagrees with u is a idiot. Isnt it?

Luckily, these Chowk fellows ignore ur abuses and that of all Qadianis.

There's a catch.

VRV,

Yaar there is no fire and no one is asking you to be the fire engine...

It is only fouled mouthed Masadi ... and more foul mouthed Masadi.

mantolives, stop being your unusual self - and appreciate Masadi for Masadi is.

A fine upstanding human being with a great mind - razor sharp, independent, deviously clever, but with enuf chutipa to make you want to scream.

Please donot be jealous of him. You are you and Masadi is masadi.
Appreciate his presence

Manto,

Thanks but no thanks.

I am really not sure who started this fire. So, pl spare me.

masadi,

... you finally found some friends ! ..... now you can stop talking to the pink bunny rabbit

VRV,

You can't be serious. I know you have your blind spots... but you can't be serious when you try and turn a blind eye to this abusive freak.

Ok this joke at Masadi has gone on long enough. It is almost painful now. Shame on those who continue to egg on Masadi by "praising" him instead of helping him with his psychiatric condition.

Tahmed writes "You and GT are not doing masadi any favor by condoning his bad habit of abusing anyone who disagrees with him"

There is one person that I detest more than anyone else on Chowk and it is tahmed, why do I detest him, because every chance he gets he supports colonization that destroyed our people, he submits to Western/white overlordship over our people and the people of the third world, on many occassions will he berate the people here if they do not imitate the white man. He will never condemn the evil that is being perpetuated in the world due to America's wars, and finally his attack on me is not because of any "abuse" it is because I have busted the temple of his gods.

Now any idiot can see that VRV and GT and the others did not write supportive posts in support of my "abuse", yet this hypocrite accuses them of that because he cannot stand anyone saying one good word about me. Regarding the abuse, it should be read in its context. There are people who have been from ever since I started posting here abusing Islam and the prophet and everything related in the most coarse terms (hamid being probably the leader), there are others who have been supporting the wide scale death and destruction that the US caused in Iraq (tahmed being the case in point), and others who take the US elite to be some kind of angels on a mission of mercy (Feroz being the case in point)- what about their posts are they not worse than calling someone an a-hole or pervert? What kind of morality is reflected by those posts when in the case of the first you are abusing over a billion people, when you could have reasoned with them using different words and in the latter two cases you are condoning the death of millions?

I have used abuse in frustration to bring down from their high pedestals the friends of the colonials and the US elite. Their arrogance comes from ignorance and I merely want to show them the true picture of their souls and my friend that ain't a pretty picture...

However from now on, I will keep to the issues on hand and not get embroiled in petty bickering which detracts from the issues, in other words I will be taking the good advice of HP. Ahmadmadani sahib thanks, you overestimate me, I am just an ordinary person talking the obvious that others have either hidden through deception or deliberately ignore, while the vast majority are merely distracted from it by the powers that be.

Long live the HP, masadi, Ahmadmadani, nanjil, GT, friendship for social justice..... the others, feel free to add your names to the list, the time for change is now

Nanjil,

He's under ban wheras the guys who said equally worst things are scot-free.

That's Chowk 4 real.

madani sahb:
beautifully said. masadi is one of the finest , straightforward and bold intellectual in the true sense I have seen in a long time. he certainly is an original thinker. I am sure he will get polished as he gets older. But i fervently hope that polish won't dilute the spirit.

#217 Posted by okhla99 on October 3, 2007 7:33:38 am

Bhonk ne wala kutta, do I hate Pakistan?? ROTFL

VRV/Folio, Jayp, Arjun and the rest of the irrational fools who hate Pakistan,

You can bark till kingdom come but all your barking shall prove only one thing,

that you are all ..........

Hamidm2,

The irony is that Masadi will actually come and thank Madani for his comments and then put up "Long live HP-Masadi-Madani friendship for Social justice" (though poor HP is quite an unwilling partner in this grand and noble coalition)...

Majumdar,

Well said... vis a vis Masadi. He has been abusing me constantly for simply airing my views. He has been abusing Ferozk, Tahmed32, okhla99, hamidm2 and countless other interactors.

Now the only reason some of the Indians here are kissing up to Masadi is because of his irrational and totally incoherent wild accusations against Mahomed Ali Jinnah which have been debunked by others on these boards. Anyone who picks up a book on history will see how ignorant Masadi really is... but ofcourse third rate jingoistic bigots like Jayp would think he is a genius. After all it takes one to know one...

majumdar:

I understand that you are using the word 'independence' in the sense of 14/15 August. In that sense you are right. However, if you use the word 'independence' in a broader sense you will agree that we are still slaves of those who rule us (whether or not they have been elected). In this sense, we have a long way to go.

But we, Pakistan and India, are indeed progressing towards that goal. It is very important to criticize ourselves and we should. At the same time we should not gloss over our achievements. Pakistan and India are way ahead of many African countries, Venezuela and Cuba in terms of general independence.

Yesterday 85 MPs resigned in Pakistan. Nobody in chowk applauded them. Their term was ending anyway, they are corrupt, they have their selfish motives etc. etc. would be the reasons given. But what would we have said had they not resigned? Small acts like these create precedents and have bigger effects in the longer run. Independence is carved through these small blows on the mai-baap frame of reference. Instant gratification should not be sought simply because it is not feasible.

In the sense mentioned above we indeed had a lot of freedom fighters. People like Gandhi, Jinnah etc. brought sparks of awareness of political rights and aspirations in (prhaps small) pockets of the unwashed in our sub-continent. In that sense they contributed to the process of awareness. It is upto each generation to push this process forward. We may not like or support each and every such process. Nevertheless, we should understand that they will eventually lead to FREEDOM.

Pakistanis have a great opportunity to LEAD the region today. They can learn from the various movements during Indira's Emergency. I hope tomorrow Indians can learn from what Pakistanis do today.

Jayp,

(The targedy that there are no freedom fighters in pakistan unlike india who gave everything up for freedom)

There were not too many freedom fighters on either side, Bhagat Singh, Azad and a few others excepted. And these people did not achieve much.

India (and Pak) independence were won by the great sacrifices made by the original white Aryan racist, fascist, bigoted freak and his German troops.

Regards

Re: # 205

madani sahib,

..... i think you will regret the day you encouraged mad man masadi - he is an idiotlogue who vents his impotent rage on chowk ........ i have been asking chowk staff to ban this fool before some innocent child is exposed to his nonsense ...... please join me in protecting our children

best regards...

Masadi is great, at least he is one pakistani who has seen through MAJ, who has realised that he created pakistan with a typewriter for the sake of the feudals.

The man had no coherent vision, that is why he could put them down in a book, it is always swaying in the wind, to suit the crowd that he was addressing. For so long the elites of pakistan have tried in vain to bulwark the tide of islam by his one speech to the parliment, again a classic case of suiting teh crowd, and that is why it has failed so miserably.

The targedy that there are no freedom fighters in pakistan unlike india who gave everything up for freedom, is the final proof of the fact that MAJ simply succeded because it suited the colonial doctrine of divide and rule, and the ultimate tragedy that what jinnah acheived by the largest migration of humanity in history created the terror central of today.

Dada,

I had a run-in with Masadi b4. He was like that but he is not like that anymore, as I see it.

Anyway I shud not bother too much abt them. It's their business.

Thanks.

VRV bhai,

(32 was calling Masadi an idiot when masadi was not calling 32 the same.)

Masadi habitually calls everyone who does not agree with him (including Tahmed sahib) as idiots, "flunkies of the West" and such other terms of endearment. You can rest assured that Tahmed sahib wudn't have fired the first shot.

Regards

A day of truth for pakistan.

Seeing all the fighting between masadi and others, the name calling of me by ylh and tahmed, no one could have said it better than this lone pakistani

from opinion of jang today


"As a general rule, Pakistanis are not happy with opinions that differ from their own. And we are unable to convey our dissatisfaction in a parliamentary, professional manner. Our Achilles' heel is to confuse the other person's difference of opinion as a personal attack on us. And, God help us, we launch into the greatest ad hominem attack there can be. Suddenly, the discussion is gone, but parents and ancestors have been exhumed and reburied. Maternal raising of children is criticised and, Lord help me, one's opponent in the argument is now either illegitimate or spreading his seed far and wide! Amazingly, one would think that the fair sex would not indulge in this Internet street-like behaviour. But alas, anger really produces a brief psychosis, and words burn my computer screen as they do the heart.

People form informal alliances based on these discussions, for it is hard to forget that insult on your laptop and the comfort that came from another friend right after. We forget the argument and begin to concentrate on personalities."
////////////////////////////////////
How many times have I posted that portrayal of pakistan as a jihadic country is an idea, increasingly accepted by the world and all that I am concentrating on is lining up the facts, interpreting the events to galvanise that idea.

There is nothing personal in that, and as I can see it, what I have said and argued years ago have come true.

Nex is the iraquisation of pakistan, and as benazir would have it, it will start with waziristan.

If u want to know Okhla, I NEVER, I repeat NEVER abused anybody unprovoked. I was never the FIRST abuser. I always reponded to, as I did 4 u now, for the abuses I received.

Secondly, there's something called evolution (prolly u dont have such thing in ur life).

Okhla,

Since u called me names I can return the compliment, u scumbag.

Why u forgot to paste the post of Manto that provoked my reply? How many hateful posts of Manto wud u need here? I can produce dozens of pure hate, u slecetive sumbag.

Getting personal is so easy and I too can get personal here to make it even. So debate the issues, kameena Okhla.

P.S: If u dim-brain missed it, 32 was calling Masadi an idiot when masadi was not calling 32 the same. That's my point.

Mr.Masadi is great contributer for intelluctual discussion and putting some different view of looking at events and policies. This evaluation of many historic figures. He does not indulge in "little" details but goes against current as he wants to understand the basic source and he does not care about pigmies shouting at him from banks who are throwing abuses, redicule and lies to damage him or this interpretations. Masadi has correctly evaluated the subtle current under actions of desi elites. Like today BB is able to get deal it financial deal at cost ppp followers. She is typical elite along with her friend general who take pride in being tamed dog of usa and western elites.He is not wrong even visually handicapped person like can see it is bush administartion decides who will rule pakistan in way they want, they pick up helping hands to subdue people by bombing by secreat pilotless airmachines and then general claims his airforce bombed. It is lie and lie is truth now as in novel 1984. As Masadi said many times before american decide and these dogs just compete amoung each other who is more loyal, these dogs are more loyals than Royals. Now masadisahib some times use crude language and I am not comfortable with that language and even suggested ore moderation. You can see Ms. Saima Shah wrote article "60 years of American doghood" then it is Koshar. Nobody objects to her language as her english is urban and polished full same stuff but not provoking sensetivity of our nation readers. Mr.Masadi is molded in differet form not of proper manner may be little wild junglee. He calls spade for spade.He is narrow and straight forward, in that case yes he is not practical, but practical people can not tell truth as it is as somebody get hurts. Like he wrote Pakistan experience of 60 years as whoring of sixty years for american cow boys , or he understood partition in different way. He is direct and states pakistani state was formed basically to save landed feudal system in west pakistan at cost of death of few million innocent people.The landed feudal land , agricultural and industrial houses were encouraged to squeeze people to please usa and local elites.All leaders from start to begin were following same interest, to protect landed gentry and industry and supress middle class and poor who will not even utter a word and midlle class brown elits were dream of britishers muslim outside western elite inside. Western elits along with desi were so brutalised and brainwashed - when usa spyairmachines were flying no body was allowed. ZAB was told he can come for tea but he can not have access to base, when slaughter in Bengal started no body said anything.By that time slavery got in our dna we got two more overlords china and arabia. May be Masdi is Jungli but we needed man like masadi to tell as it is to publis. If there were 100 masadi, jungali masadis shouting crudely things may have changed. Masadi is frustrated and he gets angry when he see pakistani nation used as whore by american and western elites. He gets angry when there white and arabi masters have brought havoc on nation. Today following master to fight their wars army is killing people to please western elites.And then awam is resiting with bare army and killing armymen. Just like bengal slaughter slaughter in tribal areas are started and not single elite feeling thing bad.80,000 regular army units along with same number of paramilitary is on war with tribals. They are not antipakistan but you start killing sons, daughters, mothers and fathers why they should not resist ? Same thing bengalis were radical pakistanis but when army began to rape women, professors and studebnts what they are supposed to do pray ? Islam is not like passive Buddha religion.Ideas of socialasm, equality, trade union, farmers struggles, haris were brutally suppressed. Even socialisn of PPP was just populist schemes and nothing and always tangential to land reforms or breaking of mental retardness. When it became hard to hide insincere attitude in politics ( as mr. Masadi has clearly shown , slogans for euality or elalterism we all just traps to hide real game the concentrated economics to that extent all means were used to hide ugly cancerous growth). Whenever even intantile lefist tendencies were suspected then were crushed and killed. The slavery was ingrained in people. It started wrong way in first cabinet not one cabinet member had seen prison in english rule as they were elites of british , some were in suits , some in rural dress one common no "anti elites". Now if we had few masadis shouting abuses it would have done much good than 60 years of Doghood.
Masadi is intelluctual many times than most but he is not lost in "elite" decencies. I WAS FIRST TO RECOGNIZE MASADI and seconded thought. I am proud of that, he is social reformer, kind of like mr . gandhi like naked fakir( churchill's words) and it hurt his sensitvities when Mr. G went naked to see emperor of Hindustan, same way masadi is naked fakir hurting civil sense of suitboot gentlemen. Masadi is powerful as he is telling truth of Wester nation control of Pakistan. He does not have finer manners but does it matter. He is tired of slavery so some time he may maginify, exhgarate but still it is truth.
First elite neglected him, then rediculed him when truth start shinging they want to block sun of Masadi now they want to destroy him for they can not open eyes as its too harsh words of Masadi.
Masadisahib you are being sensored, rediculed, hated etc but you are on mission , you knowing decided to carry fire in hands to bring light, its hard on you, I do not have strength, physical or mental like you but i wish good luck and pray for your work, you are doing thankless job , you are not hired barristor to defend undefendable that so pleasure now when all activities of elites are just business to make cheap money by doing haram works bombing defenceless people in caves , marassas, mountains and force them to surrender.I some times felt you need to moderate but moderation does not work elits have enslaved last 60 years, the journey was from nowhere to nowhere, just useless, Masadisahib go your way its lonely way its hard but you are doing social work of higest order. Please accept my best respects.

VRV/FOLIO
We all have seen how "civilized" were you on Chowk earlier. Blatant abuse, straight from the Burger King delivery boys parking lot. Loads of it. I can reproduce any number of hateful posts.

And now you have the gumption to lecture Tahmed..... you scum, you....

Read your own words below ...


QUOTE..

Manto Sri,

Like it or not, Jinnah is donkey personified. Like a typical donkey he saw only his life time and his perks in office but never foresaw the plight of `Indian Muslims` he claimed to speak for and represent. This donkey didnt foresee the future of this region.

Gandhi is peace and harmony personified. (Now u publish the South African phase of Gandhi`s life).

Jinnah Donkey sowed the seeds of hate in the minds of Indians. He gave birth to Hindu extremism which was not known in India since Parusu Rama & Pushmitra Sunga. Narendra Modi and Praveen Togadiya are the step-grandchildren of Jinnah`s politics & the snakeheads of Jamia Hafsa/Fareedia are all the love-children of Jinnah.

If extermism is the real and apparant face of Pakistan, it`s Jinnah was gave them a country but no platform to build the nation but bottomless hate for India and Hindus. There`s a proverb: Those who live by hate die by it. Let ur country die with this hate for India and Indians.

" QUOTE UNQUOTE.



VRV / Folio These are your own words.

True hypocrite. You stand totally Exposed. Full frontal.

Now cut the crap. We all know the real you.

#202 vrv: where did you get the impression that i debate anything with masadi? i stopped doing that after the first few attempts.

I am nobody to decide ur lingo for debates here. Resent is the only form of latent control on such abuses. It's entirely ur own business how u deal with others, inlcluding our own Masadi.


Btw, Hamid is above CHowk guidelines :-)
He never misses an opportunity to revile anybody (including me) and he does it with great fun.

vrv: you wrote "Unlike some fundoos here, he never abused u by ur sect."

sorry, you lost me here. i dont recall anyone abusing me by "my sect". any abuse received from fundos is my own personal achievement and i resent any attempt at denying me this credit!! :-)

coming back to masadi, perhaps the "hamidm compromise" should resolve the issue: i.e. use of the term "idiotlogue"? Is that acceptable.

PS: Thinking Storm - see how hard i am trying to get along here? ;-)

.... okay, masadi is not an idiot - he is an idiotlogue ....... is that any better ?

p.s. an idiotlogue is a person who subscrbes to an idiocy - most fundamentalist christians, jihadi muslims and arjun belong to this category .........

ooh ooh...my 2 cents please, if I may?

Masadi is not a basket case as so many would like to paint him. His argument is usually brilliant. His fault lies in taking things too seriously. He does not realize that you cannot convert a beleiver, or one who is oblivious.

He needs to laugh a little.

But the rest of his commentary is really wonderful. One needs to step back and see what he is saying. See it. The man speaketh mostly truths.


with much respect,
thinking storm

ta32,

I am not talking abt our interactions but ur abusive refs to masadi. Hope that helps.

Btw, I dont expect hamid2 to write in civi-style, since hamid is of diff breed (babar+gopinaths' aulaad).

Wow. I just realized that I may be the only person on chowk who likes all the lovely chowkies. Including the ugly lovelys.

Well Manto being the sole exception to the above...but other than that...

now VRV and tahmed chacha are arguing...masadi and tahmad are arguing...what happened to "can't we all just get along?" NO BJ, that wasn't Gandhi. It was Rodney King.

with much respect,
thinking storm

vrv #195 "I never saw him admitting good points of others or conceding his shortcomings. Its a typical desi psychology."

I beg to differ. There are plenty of people on chowk who are perfectly capable of conceding their shortcomings and appreciating positive aspects in others. And I have met some perfectly modest, positive desis. Nor can you generalize in this manner about one-sixth of humanity!!

You write " I cant force u to have a civilised debate "

I apoligize if you have found anything rude or disrespectful in what I wrote in #192 #193. Kindly do me the favor of cutting and pasting where I have been uncivilized in those posts written to you.

Sir, Unlike some fundoos here, he never abused u by ur sect. Give him creidt where it's due.

tahmed32,

It's all abt orientation. As a teacher by profession & socoilogist at that Masadi tend to be verbose. As a man who's a bachelor (whites are singles as there's nothing like bachelorhood for them anymore, whereas we have true bachelors among us) his emotional energy is reflecetd in his writings. If he sounds eccentric in parts it's not his fault. U may be aware that all creative ppl/innovators are eccentrics.

I never saw him admitting good points of others or conceding his shortcomings. Its a typical desi psychology. We all are into it. I too have some serious disagreements with Masadi abt the elite theory but I dont like to go to town calling him an idiot all the time.

Anyway I cant force u to have a civilised debate here; it's ur prerogative to be or not to be civlised(No Hamletian Dilemma here; u are a senior man).

#192 correction: I see on unplugged GT has in fact been good enough to answer my question of what he has learnt from Masadi - it has to do with Islamic reformation. That is fine, and you may wish to add something that you have learnt too, particlarly in Masadi's major (world politics and economics).

This doesnt change anything else I have said below.

#191 vrv: when someone becomes abusive or rude without provocation, then the target of his abuse has a right to either ignore him or to respond in kind. And if i call him an idiot, I have provided an example (see #182) of why I said that. And perhaps masadi has changed as you say - but he is not there yet as you can plainly see from his post addressed to me, e.g. If I am missing something, I ask you the favor of a response to the unanswered question I have for GT in #190 below.

You and GT are not doing masadi any favor by condoning his bad habit of abusing anyone who disagrees with him, btw. Such a attitude may be a minor annoyance on chowk for others, but is a recipe for failed careers, miserable marriages, and/or no friendships worth mentioning for the abuser in real life.

tahmed32 & hamid2,

If u disagee with masadi, u can say that i/o calling him an idiot, which is againt the rules of Chowk (I guess u are immune to them).

It's clear from his posts that he's not returning the compliment to u.

Masadi mellowed a lot - he's not using abuses anymore but u are high on that diet. By hurling abuses on masadi u are looking exacly what u are calling him. Sorry.

GT #189: I agree that enough of masadi - I would rather pay attention to posters who have something amusing or original or informative to add, rather to an individual whose claim to fame is his abusive posts.

Dont worry about my feelings - if abuse from "internet tigers" meant anything to me, I would have left chowk a long time ago. So, please dont make me the problem for refusing to applaud abusive posters the way you are doing.

I provided you with an example in #182 below of why I consider this man to be an idiot. What words of wisdom or insights does he provide that has made even a smidgen of a difference in your understanding of world politics and economics, the two stratospheric subject that masadi deals with? I would be obliged if you would explain, so I dont miss out on it.

tahmed sahib:

It is not my intention to upset you or hurt your feelings. I know that you are a nice human being. I do not like the way you are abused by masadi. Also, I am not sure that our perspective on manto is different. Manto is a serious person who knows his Jinnah (as hamid would say).

However, it is my view, that masadi is not an idiot. You may, and have all the rights to, disagree with my view.

In any case, I feel a bit sorry discussing masadi, manto etc. in a board which should be discussing the present changes in the polity of Pakistan.

GT: You wont find me condoing abusive posts written by anyone on chowk the way you are doing in case of masadi. So you have no reason to point to some other poster (mantolives in this case) to support your encouragement of masadi.

I already recognized in my previous post that masadi is not alone in using the safety of the internet to abuse and berate people and misrepresent and demonize their views in ways he would never dare to do to their face in real life. There are indeed a few other "internet tigers" - cowards and losers in real life, obviously - like him on chowk.

Saying that abuse is "a part of chowk" does injustice to those posters who are perfectly civilized. I have not read Ferozk's exchange with masadi that you mention, but I have seen posts written by him over the past several years on chowk, and he has been consistently civilized until now.

So, please try to be fair, and distinguish between deliberate and wilful abusers like masadi and those who are provoked into responding to such posters in kind.

PS: As for mantolives, I dont follow his daily interactions and there are very few exchanges he has with me. But when he does (even on issues where we disagree, notably on his views on Gandhi), he has been civilized. Nor has he twisted my views the way masadi routinely does either. I am writing this only to give you another perspective on mantolives, one different from yours. Like I said above, in any case I am not condoning abuse the way you are.

Re: # 186

GT,

masadi should be banned from chowk for provoking an uncharacteristic remark from a gentleman like ferozk - the man brings out the worst in everyone .......

........ personally i think the man is a frustrated idiot who takes out his frustrations on imaginary foes like the us elite and barney the purple dinosoaur ...... i think his frustrations stem from sexual inadequacy and doubts abut sexual orientation - that is my theory and i could be wrong .......

....

#182 Posted by tahmed32,

Dear tahmed,

Let me turn the issue a bit and talk about another interactor I like. What about manto? Don't you find him 'abusive'? And to be frank, I wrote # 181, because I was completely taken aback by #179 of ferozk, I just could not believe that ferozk could write something like that.

tahmed sahib. Abuse is but a part of chowk (as HP taught me a long time back). I have had a lot of interesting conversations with masadi, with masadi being both abusive and declaring himself the 'winner'. But I have not been worse off as a result. There are always new things to learn.

Arjun,

As always, u are hilarious. LOL!

masadi and manto are peas in a pod..

They both have outlandish theories that they think are facts but the world doesn't buy..at least in masadi's case, his theory has more buyers...

Both masadi and manto are in the habit of declaring victory over their opponents when the victory is only in their own mind...notice how masadi claims to have proven something and manto claiming to have handed people their asses

if they were in vermont, they would be married...

#181 Posted by GT on October 2, 2007 8:27:08 am

Well said, Sir!

GT: I beg to differ with your post to masadi.

Who but an idiot would accuse some poster of planting flags (in #178) when in fact it could be anyone? And why are you reinforcing this man's habit of berating and insulting anyone who dares to question his stupid black-and-white view of the world? Contrary to what you imply, most posters on chowk are perfectly capable of exchanging posts in a civilized manner. Masadi and others like him who take advantage of the internet to abuse and berate posters in ways they would never dare to do in real life should not be considered as the standard-setters on chowk.

Dear masadi,

You are not a fool nor an idiot. Though I do not fully agree with your power elite theory (and I have my reasons) there is no doubt about the power exherted by US corporations in collusion with politicians (who are mostly propped up by these same corporate bosses). These forces have globally done much to prop up and destroy both (free?) markets and democracy. They have indeed lead to a lot of misery. You also make a very important point - the point that these forces use the media very effectively to blur or distort or hide the truth. These points need to be made and you consistently do so in chowk. For this I am grateful.

You also make a point with which I whole heartedly agree. That is: aggregate welfare, and not growth, is the actual measure of 'the wealth of nations' (Adam Smith made this point and it is indeed lost to third grade economists in the IMF, WB and various 'consultancies'). As you will recall, India has been shining for quite a while now. Yet, each and every government has been changed by the masses during this 'shining' period. So much for India and Pakistans' desire to shine.

As far as being abusive is concerned, yes you are abusive and personally I do not like it. But so are many in chowk. And then there are those who can be offensive without being abusive. So I shall simply bear your abusive .... just keep those posts comming.

masadi: you idiot. i didnt plant those flags below. I gave you a fitting response in #174 instead.

Re: # 165

Hey fool, you are guessing again, aren't you? You guessed wrong...again...you moron!

Howz life in utopia?

I was right...you really are miserable living in this world, aren't you?

Go back to the rock you crawled out from....you know...where all the fools go...

ciao

Sorry, let me correct that even though the High Priest of the Church of MAJ is hypocritical, this flagging was the work of tahmed, the backstabber. The pattern of red-flagging reveals that it was his work...As the old wise saying from these areas goes, when you shake your hand with him make sure you count your fingers afterwards, because untrustworthy as he is, he might have kept one while you weren't looking....stay clear of folk like him

By the way why have so many of my posts here been red flagged, even the most benign ones like the one to HP. Is it that the High Priest of the Church of MAJ wants me banned from here yet again. Is this not the clearest sign of this loser at work?

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf made moves on Tuesday to smooth his re-election by naming a successor as army chief as his government dropped graft charges against possible ally Benazir Bhutto......Chain-smoking Kayani had been director-general of the military's main security agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, until last month. He is well-regarded by U.S. counterparts, Western diplomats say.

Pakistan is an important non-NATO ally for the United States. Its support is regarded as crucial for the success of Western military efforts in Afghanistan, and in the hunt for Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda in tribal areas on the Afghan border.

-----------------------------------

Demons....Yeah Right!....Come the Iran war, you'll see what role he plays...

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf made moves on Tuesday to smooth his re-election by naming a successor as army chief as his government dropped graft charges against possible ally Benazir Bhutto......Chain-smoking Kayani had been director-general of the military's main security agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, until last month. He is well-regarded by U.S. counterparts, Western diplomats say.

Pakistan is an important non-NATO ally for the United States. Its support is regarded as crucial for the success of Western military efforts in Afghanistan, and in the hunt for Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda in tribal areas on the Afghan border.

-----------------------------------

Demons....Yeah Right!....Come the Iran war, you'll see what role he plays...

masadi #168 " If humanity is like you then I'll renounce my membership in its ranks."

No, please dont renounce your membership. Without your incisive, brilliant, intellect to help sort things out, humanity will be doomed!! And earth will become the Planet of the Apes!! :-(

You have "talent" and "knowledge"? HP must be smoking pot when he wrote that. Clever fellow though... He has slapped you hard many times... on these boards... except that he has patted you on the head while doing so.

I used to think a certain Professor Ali Sina was the worst idiot on the web... then I came across you. Man you take the cake.

HP is right that I should not waste my time, talent and knowledge bickering with dimwits like you Manto......now run away....

HP is right. You are incapable of looking at the bigger picture...

Probably because you have your head stuck up where the sun don't shine.

HP writes "His refusal to look at the big picture"

The biggest picture on the global scene these days is the world system, whose institutions are dominated by the US elite, and I have a clear focus on them....

How old are you Masadi.. really ? 5?

Tahmed wrote "You cant claim to care for humanity the way you do in #129, and then turn around and do your best to berate and belittle people you are interacting with (as you routinely do on chowk, not just with evil people like me, but even with gentlemen like Ferozk "

I should listen to HP and not bother with your BS, my "belittling" is based on issues, issues that emerge from Feroz's writing which reveal quite clearly to me where his loyalties lie and they are not with the people....now go to hell, apologists for colonizers and imperialists and barbarians who destroy nations don't have any feet to stand upon to tell others about "people". You are a disgrace not only to Pakistan but the entire human race. If humanity is like you then I'll renounce my membership in its ranks.

PS: The only thing you've shaken here is your tail and nothing else really.

So don't go on declaring victory like Saddam Hussain after Gulf War 1.

Apparently giving sources from authentic authors is copy pasting... meanwhile abuse all day long is "argument". What an academic.

Masadi to date you haven't answered one single question I have asked you... except abuse. I suppose this passes for academic debate where you come from i.e. Assylum for the insane.

Feroz writes "I think that Masadi's problem is that he is an academican and somewhere he got lost in the academia and lost all contact with reality"

Another cheap excuse from someone who has really poor comprehension. He reads the preamble of the US constitution and concludes that it says that governments are created to bring happiness to the people. He reads that a certain amendment is illegal and thus not applicable and then concludes that another amendment would be need to amend the illegal amendment. He reads that the parliment under the gun constructed a law and then says "why did they not resign". This guy is pathetic, I doubt if he ever went beyond the bachelor's level in his "education" and yet poses as a dispenser of reality. The facts are on my side, I tabulate them in every post, while the US elite dominate the world system and its institutions, this jerk thinks that they are "demons" of my own creation, somewhat similar to Fox News propaganda trying to brush away facts in the tabloid manner.

Regarding Manto, in every argument he has brought forth, and he hasnt brought forth many, mostly he is capable of only copy-pastes, I have dismantled them and shaken the faith of countless folk here in the church of Maj, now for the first time young folk and old alike on here question the feudal, anti-Muslim, origins of Pakistan and the shenanigans of the MFJ where the M stands for mama, the F for (F'ing) and the J for Jinnah, who whored the Muslims of India to both the Colonials and the Hindu elite.....

Ah... I suppose some people just want to vent their frustration with being an Indian. Mahatma Modi, Mahatma Advani and Mahatma Gandhi ji ki jai.

#159 Posted by MantoLives on October 2, 2007 5:53:30 am


blah blah gandhi blah jinnah blah august 11th speech blah


You can spin it anyway you want...build theories that only play in your echo-chamber of self-delusion...theories that nobody outside pureland is buying..

The fact remains: Pureland, TODAY, is known by the world for being the cradle of islamic terrorism.

Re: # 159

Answers to Pakistan's Jinnah and Liaqat Ali
Khans are India's Mody and Advani and Thakre.
No match at all, Indian standards fall way
short of Pakistan, Pakistan wins again
hands down in this category.

Yaar Shishapa,

Not everything is a childish game. Besides... I am only pointing out a fact of history... not indulging in who won or lost.

ghandhi wins, Mr. Jinnah warned ghandhi
against commuanlism but succumbed (sp?)
and become communal like ghandhi.
I would say the most effective and best
disciple of communal gandhi was Jinnah.

Shishapa bhaijaan...

Read #127 in full if you have the moral courage to.

Mohar mian...

Please read post #127... The victim of the Congress' pandering to the Mullah to this day remains you... the Indian Hindu.

Pakistan's problems are not unique to Pakistan. Any Muslim majority society in this day and age would go through a similar trajectory and most Muslim societies are (as any Christian Society in the 16th century would have)... it is about the evolution of society. We will come out of it.

But imagine what happened with you... the Indian Hindu. Not only did those like Jinnah - who as a Congressmen had warned against pandering to the Mullahs- managed to get large tracts of lands in the name of settlement on behalf of the Muslims... but Congress' unholy matrimony with the Ulema of Deoband left Congress and India in a position where it can't even have one uniform secular civil code despite being a constitutionally secular country... where the state is not only forced to put up with the polygamous habits of a minority... but the state is also forced to subsidise the same.

And the unkindest cut of all for Hindus like you... the Republic of India recognises and even gives pensions to Moplahs (who burnt Hindus like you alive) in the non-cooperation/Khilafat Movement.

All this could have been avoided... had Gandhi listened to Jinnah... but I have made a solemn promise not to bash Gandhi on his birthday... and so I won't say much more on this topic today.

Learn to cope with a Sad Day for Pakistan from the Mets (NY baseball team that lost big-time a couple of days back).

Mental Help for Mets Fans
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1667340,00.html?cnn=yes
Summary:

1. The first step is to accept how much it hurts, regardless of those dismissive observers you might know who tell you to have some perspective, that it's just the end of the season, not the end of the world.

2. Shift your focus to other sports. College and pro football are in full swing, and basketball will soon be tipping off.

3. Social Creativity: Basically, make yourself feel better by comparing your team to one which, historically, has been much worse off than yours.

4. Retroactive Pessimism: "A guy doesn't get a job, and he tells himself, 'gosh, the field was so competitive,'" he explains. "'There was nothing I could do to control it.' It has nothing to do with the fact that he's lazy and unqualified."

5. And who knows, in some ways, this whole horrible experience may provide unexpected benefits for Mets fans. "The beauty of being a fan is that it's something personal that you can share," says Hirt, the Indiana professor. ...Group hug, everyone. Right about now, we could sure use it.

Either way - mullahs in pakiland would have remained a small nuisance had paki elite NOT tapped into mullah ideology to further their own political and "strategic" agenda... mullahs are NOT that smart really to do all this on their own - they have been invited to the party and have been built from ground up and empowered to spread islamisation across the land...

even now there is time - pakis can still back out from the brink... all they have to do is stop believing the book, stop wannbe-bedouin...

Instead of working on that - pakis blame everybody else... YLH blames gandhi, HP blames the americans, hamidm blames madrasi macacas, and so on and so forth...

Paki whining never ends.... :)

Re: # 155 shish

True... gandhi foolishly pandered to these mullahs in false hopes of keeping everybody together - in the process he ended up alienating everybody, including hinuds and secular muslims... that was a big mistake...

Even though mullahs were opposed to jinnah at the beginning - once he took up the mantle of saviour of islam - they all went along with him... eventually they all ended up in pakiland...

Re: # 152

I thought Mullahs were opposed to Mr. Jinnah
because he wanted Muslims to tuck their tale
and retreat to Pakistan in two corners of
Hindustan after ruling it 1000 years and
Mullahs wanted to convert all of Hindustan
to Pakistan, hence the resentment, because
their playing field was being reduced.
I do not think either loved any of the
Hindus, both hated Hindus with a vengeance.

YLH

admit it - Gandhi eff888ed you pakis royally in more ways than one... the wily bania is having the last laugh - His "ally" mullahs have made pakiland miserable and and there is nothing you can do about it... :)

What the heck you pakis are whining about? Some TV guys did a poll in karachi recently and most people still want Mushy as their ruler - that's what daily times says...

So what's the problem?

Arjun mian,

The problem with you is that you twist my words.

What I have mentioned - in response to Jayp's abuse against Pakistan, Jinnah, TNT etc - is simply a fact of history... that most of these Mullahs were always in alliance with Gandhi and always Jinnah's opponents...

It is a fact of history whether you like it or not.

borilvi express #146 it is precisely this kind of "mard i mujahid" thinking that has given Pakistan one dictator after another. what part of "rule of law" do you people have trouble understanding?

#148 Posted by zeemax on October 2, 2007 1:33:41 am


And where do you think the Jihadis will head next after Islamabad?


To another lal masjid for operation shake and bake part 2?

#142 Posted by MantoLives on October 1, 2007 10:36:12 pm

Manto: YOU'RE the one who thinks the jihadis making the paki army surrender everyday and blowing up women's schools are a product of gandhian thinking and were somehow created by gandhi...nobody outside your own little echo chamber buys that..probably not even the majority of people in your own house...

compared to that, masadi's US elites conapiracy theory seems very rational...

#147 Posted by jayp,

And where do you think the Jihadis will head next after Islamabad? :)

Bori 145,

You pakistanis have to see the reality, accept it , and take corrective actions if you do not like what you see.

I am the great mirror to pakistanis, so that when you lift your heads from the book, you see the reality.

At some stage you have to accept that the book is only some ink blots on paper, there is a life to be lived, in "flesh and blood", sorry for the pun, as any jihadi would understand it.

It is time that the pakistanis go into a collective depression, as the jihadis march towards ilamabad, and you hear teh distant thunder, lilaha illalla...pakistan ka matlab kys..

And a mard e mujahid mard e momin is soon going to do that, but first musharraf/BB/nawaz has to be overthrown

There is only one cure for these hindus:

Supra-megaton Thermonuclear carpet bombing

Last day for pakistan.

At last, pakistanis have reached the lowest level of trust one can have in the pak institutions. Banks are handing out fake currency. The news item says that now, most shop keepers have scanning devices to check for fake currency. As the govy cooks the books abouyt economy, as the amry changes constitution, as the courts develop doctrines of necessity, the people of pakistan are developing ways of survival as the primary social instututions collapse around them.


From jang business section of today


Fake currency notes in market causing scare
A bank customer claims delivery of counterfeit currency from ATM

Tuesday, October 02, 2007
By Salman Siddiqui

KARACHI: One does not expect to get counterfeit currency notes at bank counters or from ATMs. But it has happened in the city, and there is a scare about the presence of fake currency notes in the local market.

A few weeks ago a citizen, Mrs Najeeb, is reported to have withdrawn Rs5,000 (five notes of Rs1,000 each) from a bank’s ATM located at Gulistan-e-Jauhar and one of the five notes was fake, which she came to know later.

A great day for pakistan,

In the great democrazy of pakistan, about to be launched by benazir with the US support has announced that the US will be allowed publically to bomb waziristan.

At last the price of democracy is being announced and teh formal partition of pakistan, teh tribal areas are no more part of pakistan, noit controlled by the pak army, its borders are free for all.

It is a great day, at last the jinnahs TNT is working. First the other nation of east bengal seperated, now it is the other nation of NWFP. The beauty of jinnahic formulation is that there will always be the other nation, and it will keep dividing like amoeba.

I think it is very important to consider A’null’s sudden discovery of Masadi’s beautiful mind in its full color… if for nothing else then to show how the dominant discourse in India paralyses any fair-minded thinking (as it might do so in Pakistan as well- but what exactly is Pakistan’s dominant discourse is still not certain) let alone free minded one.

Since Masadi to date has only resorted to abuse and has not given a single worthwhile argument except declare again and again that “church of MAJ has been routed� and “US elites are about to kneel� in front of Masadi’s greatness… there are to my mind only two possibilities for such praise from none other than A’null- the self styled linguist, physicist, scientist, sociologist and historian all rolled in one:

1. A’null’s new found love for Masadi is entirely colored by partisan considerations and is not based on merit. In this case, his claim that Masadi is free of dominant Pakistani discourse, whatever that may be, makes Masadi a better mind than the rest who supposedly are in the dominant Pakistani discourse’s clutches should be simply read as “Masadi is better because he is closer to my thinking… where as all these other Pakistani freaks don’t agree with the dominant Indian discourse and therefore are worthy of contempt�. In other words A’null’s statement merely constitutes the irreducible minimum chutiyapa that is the pre-requisite of being an Indian.

2. Or one could give A’null a benefit of a doubt (a risky proposition) and assume that A’null meant that free thinking means a break with any dominant discourse. In that case ofcourse, one must point out that A’null is perhaps more representative of the dominant Indian discourse i.e. barely Hindu fascism and irrational hatred for Pakistanis with the thin veneer of Indian “Secularism� (another oxymoron- but then moron is a word much in demand for any descriptive analysis for the species that A’null belongs to… so using A’null’s own logic, one can safely conclude that A’null is a third rate mind- a conclusion that is corroborated by his inane argumentation rife on this website. In this case the opinion of a third rate mind like A’null does not matter.

Whether it is 1 or 2, one can safely conclude that the lavish praise A’null has heaped on Masadi which has raised quite a stink is not meritorious for it is either borne out of A’null’s partisanship or quite simply the low quality of his mind.


These are my two cents on A’null and his sudden discovery of Masadi’s beautiful mind.

AA of Dawn says "Ek dhakka aur". This, according to him will lead to either jubilation or depression.

NONSENSE! Absolute Nonsense! Why should Pakistanis get depressed? They are fighting, and if the dictator does not leave more will join in. What is there to be sad about? It is not like if the dictator leaves all of a sudden there will be milk and honey flowing around. This fight, which has started, will and should continue. Dictator or no dictator.

Abhi to yeh angrai hein,
Aagey aur ladai hein.

Masadi is definitely intense! and like arjun, Aleph says has a model so to speak that remains consistent if you follow its internal logic. (Masadi: sorry if it sounds patronizing)

#136 Posted by hamidm2 on October 1, 2007 10:56:34 am


the man is a bigger embarassment for the nation than captain clueless ........


Say what you will about masadi but he's been consistent in his worldview. There's at least a thread of logic that can be traced through his posts.

capt clueless, OTOH...well...tshirt with paki flag...need I say more?

It hard for me to agree with anull on anything but here he is right on the money. Massadi writes with a passion and I don't agree with him on many issues. However, I personally admire his devotion to what he thinks is right. His refusal to look at the big picture is his undoing but a person of his education and grasp of the issues will eventually figure this out. In the meantine, people who don't agree with him can just leave him alone.
I would suggest to him to pay more attention to educating people rather than picking up small issues to bicker and waste his time, talent and knowledge.
I hope he listens.

Masadi sahib has *several* prominent blind spots and does his cause no favours through his gratuitous rudeness. He might want to control his temper. But in my opinion he has a better mind than most of his Pakistani critics as well as some of those Pakistanis who would like him on their side. He seems freer from the Pakistani dominant discourse than any other Muslim Pakistani on this site. He also seems well able to resist the all-too-human tendency to modify ones opinions simply to curry favour with potential allies (I hope I am not wrong in this judgment). He is a breath of fresh air on Chowk. In no way do I wish to patronise him – all the same, he has my salaams.

Re: # 134

arjun,

..... i can understand why you hold all pakis in such low esteem ..... but let me assure you that masadi is not representative of the entire paki nation just as you (hopefully)do not represent all the horrible hindoos .........

...... i apologize for masadi's sorry existence and i wish i could box his ears and send him to bed without pudding ........ the man is a bigger embarassment for the nation than captain clueless ........

re: masadi

Masadi writes: "This is not the world I choose to live in and I'll be goddamned if I end my life because of the doings of the US elite"

So that is it, isn't it?

You simply cannot deal with the reality and have gone stark raving mad, haven't you?

None of us likes the way the world is, but we all deal with the reality, but you have created your own reality and in your self-created reality, you are the lone defender of the suffering humanity and sole beholder of the truth, aren't you?

The US elites won't have to end your life, Masadi; you will end it yourself in one of your fits of righteous indignations. I should have known that the saying was right...if you give someone a long enough piece of rope, they will eventually hang themselves.

You must be really a miserable person living in this world, aren't you?

Ciao

#130 Posted by MantoLives on October 1, 2007 10:22:33 am

I blame columbus. If he hadn't discovered America, there would be no US and no US elites..

masadi: You cant claim to care for humanity the way you do in #129, and then turn around and do your best to berate and belittle people you are interacting with (as you routinely do on chowk, not just with evil people like me, but even with gentlemen like Ferozk who are almost invariably respectful and keep their focus on issues. At least you can do this without making it a challenge for anyone to consider your claims to be valid.

Ferozk,

You are too kind hearted a human being because you give the person too much credit. One does not become an academic by reading one's own books... which is all that Masadi seems to have read.

re: Mantolives # 130

I think that Masadi's problem is that he is an academican and somewhere he got lost in the academia and lost all contact with reality. He lives in a world of his own creation and seems to fight with the demons of his own creation.

Last night, I was researching the records of the Spanish Inquistion in the period 1790 to 1815. When the French invaded Spain in the 1800s, they ended the Spanish Inquistion and imprisoned the priest and freed the prisoners. The French records showed that two prisoners considered themselves to be Napoleon and had gone mad from the torture.

As the records noted, one prisoner who considered himself to be Napoleon was an Arab and the other one was over seven feet tall!

Masadi has gone nuts simply because of his obession with his chosen tormentors - the US elites!

Ciao

Yaar Feroz,

Think Monty Python... think Black Knight in the Holy Grail. Masadi is incapable of having reasonable and decent discourse. All he does is repeat his abusive mantra and declares victory.

We all share the blame ofcourse for the travesty that Masadi is... lets take the blame... even Jinnah is to blame. Had Pakistan not been created, poor Masadi would not be anything more than a sweeper ... but Pakistan has given him the chance to pose as an academic.

hamid writes " let it out - tell us what ails you .... "

What ails me is the condition of the people amidst plenty, what ails me is why they are living and dying like animals because of a social structure that prevents them from becomming human due to deprivation. This is not the world I choose to live in and I'll be goddamned if I end my life because of the doings of the US elite

Feroz writes "re: masadi

I answered your questions, but you have not answered mine.
"

Who are you trying to fool punk, given your comprehension ability though, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were unable to understand simple prose....You can't fool the people, the lackeys of the colonials and the peons of the West are intellecutally dishonest and you are their poster child on Chowk....

Jayp,

You still haven't told me why the Indian government honors the Gandhi-inspired Moplahs of South India who perfected the art of burning hindus like youself as freedom fighters?

The people who bombed the statue and failed to destroy it are none other than your old buddies...

Let me remind you of a history lesson you keep forgetting...

Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: ’It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE ’HIMALAYAN ERROR’ of Gandhiji’s leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali’s speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League’.

and

’Since the Khilafat agitation, things have changed and it has been one of the many injuries inflicted on India by the encouragement of the Khilafat crusade, that the inner Muslim feeling of hatred against ’unbelievers’ has sprung up, naked and unashamed, as in years gone by’.

and

A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: ’GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?’ Dr Anne Besant declared: ’The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything’. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.

http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06aug/2208ss1.htm

Mahatma Gandhi’s attempt to harness the feeling for the cause of national independence backfired and led to the uprising in Kerala known as the Moplah Rebellion. It took the British several months to put it down at the cost of thousands of lives.



Moplahs were very much part of the grand Khilafat Movement that Gandhi was spearheading and Gandhi kept apologising for them


The Dravidian Moplahs had directed their revolt with class venom against some Aryan high-caste Hindus with property as well as Britishers: Brahmanical elements tried to use that to spark a crisis in Hindu-Muslim relations all over India. Gandhi tried to hold a balance: like the U.S. press and the Negro nationalists who read it he stressed that the Moplah uprising could be made part of a united drive for independence by Indians of all sects.But he was also aware of the pan-Islamic dimension: in a December 1921 call to the British to suspend their attacks against the Moplahs, he was to observe that the Moplahs saw themselves as fighting for a religion with methods they considered religious: Yogesh Chadha, Rediscovering Gandhi (London: Century 1997) p. 254.


And lets not forget the Tehreek-e-Hijrat Fatwa that Gandhi’s right hand man Azad gave to Muslims which gave Muslims two options "JEHAD" or "HIJRAT".

The Muslim Ulema, thinkers and activists called for the boycott of foreign goods and non-cooperation with the British government. Meetings were organised in order to rally the masses to support these issues. The meetings were organised under the banner of Mo’tamar al-Ansar (The Workers Conference) and various newspapers such as Al-Hilal of Maualana Abul Kalam Azad and The Comrade of Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar. Both Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad and Maulana Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar were put behind bars for publishing anti-British articles in their newspapers. The latter spent four years in prison between 1911 and 1915CE.


The allegiance of the Muslim intelligentsia of India at that to the Khilafah is unquestionable. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad summed up their view when he wrote in his newspaper al-Hilal on 6th November 1912 that the Ottoman Sultans possessed the only sword which Muslims had for their protection. Insofar as the “caliphate was essentially a religious integration of the shari’a�, it became “necessary by revelation, is of God’s institution and that obedience to its authority is farz, or positively commanded�.


The Khilafat Movement


In September 1919, Maulana Muhammad Ali and his brother Shaukat Ali, together with Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari, and Hasrat Mohani, started a new organization, the Khilafat Movement (1919-1924). Their avowed aim was to use whatever leverage they had to protect the Khilafah. They organized Khilafat Conferences in several northern Indian cities. It is noticeable that the scholars and activists that were part of the Khilafat movement came from different schools of thought and backgrounds, for example Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was known to be a ‘ghayr taqleedi’ (non-taqleedi – who believed Taqleed to Mazahib is prohibited) and Maulana Mahmood Hasan was Deobandi who are followers of the Hanafi Mazhab yet they were united in the objective of working for the maintenance of the Khilafah.


In 1919, the Bombay Khilafat Committee agreed on two important organisational goals: “first, to urge the retention of the temporal powers of the Sultan of Turkey as Caliph, and second to ensure his continued suzerainty over the Islamic holy places.�

Delivering the presidential address at the Calcutta meeting of the Bengal Provincial Khilafat Conference in 1920, Maulana Azad discussed the importance of Khilafah he declared, “the purpose of this institution was to organise and lead the Muslim community in the right path, to establish justice, to bring about peace, and to spread God’s word in the world. For all this it was absolutely necessary for the caliph to possess temporal power�. Maulana Azad had no doubt that “without an Imam, their lives were un-Islamic and that they would be damned after death�.


Maulana Azad published a book in 1920 called Masla-e-Khilafat (The Issue of Khilafah), he stated: “Without the Khilafah the existence of Islam is not possible, the Muslims of India with all their effort and power need to work for this�.

In the same book page 176 Maulana Azad said, “There are two types of ahkam shariah, the first is related to the individual like the commands and prohibitions, the fara’id (obligations) and wajibat in order to perfect oneself. The second is not related to the individual but is related to the Ummah, nation, collective obligations and state politics like the conquering of lands, political and economic laws�.

According to Peter Hardy, Maulana Azad believed that, “The Muslim who would separate religion and politics for Muslims is an apostate who works silently�.


The loss of political power in India and the threat posed by a combination of forces to the temporal authority of the caliph, was so worrisome for the leaders of the Muslim community that some of them felt compelled to issue fatwas ‘in favour of migration (hijra)’ from India.


Maulana Abul Kalam Azad issued a fatwa which was published in the daily Ahl-e-Hadith of Amritsar on 30 July 1920. In his fatwa he urged Hijrat from India as an alternative to non-cooperation with the British. (YLH’s note: Was the Hijaz Born Azad a "Wahabi"... note "Ahle-Hadith)

Maulana Abdul Bari’s fatwa said, “every Muslim residing here should adopt non-cooperation but if (that is) impossible, should proceed for hijrat�. Maulana Shaukat Ali issued a statement on behalf of the Central Khilafat Committee, “expressing the hope that all dedicated Muslims would stay in India and work for the non-cooperation. Only if it did not succeed would they consider resorting to hijrat�. The impact of the fatwa was electrifying and thousands of Muslims preferred to leave the Dar al harb of India where their religious rights symbolized in the position of the Turkish Caliph was being infringed.


And most amazing was the fact that Gandhi’s encouragement led to Deobandi ulema creating the Jamiat ulema Hind ... which in its numerous forms and heads plagues South Asia even today... and all these groups are spin offs of the same.

Pureland's economy is 1/10th the size of india...do the math..

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2007/oct/01arms.htm

India, Pakistan leading buyers of weapons: US report

On the buyers' side, Pakistan concluded $5.1 billion in agreements to buy arms last year, followed by India and Saudi Arabia with $3.5 billion and $3.2 billion in agreements respectively.

CRAZIEST day for pakistan
It was only last week, 2000 year old budha statue was bombed by the pakistani. Then the govt said that they have no resources to protect the antiques. The zeenaxes celebrated telling that idols are to destroyed per islam. Very true, now an american has been arrested for trying to save an antique. Now the govt of pakistan will sieze the idol from the american and destroy it per the TNT requirements.

from jang of today

US national held for smuggling antiques

By Shakeel Anjum

Islamabad: The customs officials have arrested an American while trying to smuggle the statues of Buddha to Boston, a State of USA, official sources in the customs department told 'The News' Sunday.

The sources said that Collector Customs Rawalpindi, Muhammad Arshad Khan, was informed that an American would try to take away ancient antiques to America. Strict vigilance was put into place and Additional Collector (Airport), Arslan Subqutageen, constituted a special team comprising Syed Imam Bokhari, Deputy Collector and Saud Bin Aman, Inspector to keep an eye on the activities of the suspicious passengers.

The team, meanwhile, intercepted an American citizen, Michael Dadir Sinclair, and recovered the antiques from him at the export section of Islamabad Airport, the sources said adding the was an employee of USAID in Pakistan.

The Department of Archaeology has confirmed that the seized articles were genuine antiques and valuing million of rupees. Legal proceedings under Customs and Antiquity Act have been initiated, the sources added.

Pakistan economic miracle or cooking the books.

Pakistan had a bumper wheat crop and exported a lot, now it appears that agricultural output books were cooked.

Every anecdotal evidence indicates increasing poverty, decreasing literacy, but teh economy is booming according to the numbers dished out.

Then of course there is constant blaming of poverty for the jihadis and why the madrassas are thriving, but when it comes to numbers, the economy is booming.

From dawn of today.


The Economist (UK) has recently published ‘World Investment Prospects to 2011’, a copy of which I received at ‘The Emerging Markets Summit’ organised by the Economist Intelligence Unit in London on Sept 24 and 25.

Under emerging markets of Asia it lists China, Hong Kong, India, Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand and Vietnam. Pakistan is not included. The main reason is unreliable and manipulated statistics in Pakistan.

This is a very important publication and many top international financial institutions will not now even think of Pakistan in their investment strategy. Exporting and re-importing wheat will cost a few million dollars, but Pakistan having earned the name of statistical manipulators will pay a much bigger price now.

Romair,

(pakistani banks are bankers (in general) are at the internaitonal level....)

Mr. Shaukat Aziz for eg.

(if big G gets going, and if india agrees to use pakistan as a throughway for oil and gas, pakistan should benefit greatly.......)

Pakistan will certainly get a lot of revenue from it if it happnes whether it will use it productively is another matter.

(pakistan still has a ways to go to get to the stage where economic growth and institution-based govt. can work hand in hand........india is only now reaching that stage........
it took it 50 years........)

It does not require nations 50 years to put in place institutions which promote sustainable economic growth. The problem in India was that the Nehruvian Stalinist idiots who ran India's economy for almost 50 years deliberately created institutions whose whole purpose was to retard and not promote growth. Else India would have been completely out of Pakistan's reach by now given the fact that India already had a headstart over Pakistan's relatively backward provinces at 1947.

Fortunately Pakistan does not have as much of a socialist baggage (ZA Bhoot got hung in time mercifully) and given Islam's resistance to communism (for its atheist leanings) commie type thinking shud not make a comeback anytime soon.

Regards

aslam644: "...There has been a real turn around in economic scenario in Pakistan ...... IT industry is at a take off stage. Construction industry is booming,.....infrastructure and education."

....after reading this, one would get the feeling that pakistan is the next mexico (which ranks 80 slots higher than pakistan on the un's human development index).....

pakistan's private sector has certainly seen growth.....your comments are accurate, other than about the IT sector.......which is not even near the take-off stage in pakistan.......nor do i see it getting there any time soon.......

......there are three areas in pakistan, which have boomed....first and foremost, banking......pakistani banks are bankers (in general) are at the internaitonal level....i meet with quite a few of them regularly.......pakistani banks are hot property and foreign banks are lining up to buy them......pakistan is also the primary international retail market for islamic banking, which is set to boom.....

......telecom has boomed beyond anyone's predictions.......it is one of the fastest growing telecom markets in the world........however, i am not sure if pakistan benefits from this.......as it is primary a retail market.......there is no value add, locally.......nokia ships its phones to pakistan, where they are sold, and nokia takes the money back.....warid etc. do the same.....

......real estate is the third sector......where most of the pakistanis keep their money........the skyline of pakistan is set to change, through the very large construction projects being set up by middle eastern companies......

......however, one has to wait and see how sustainable all this will be.......economic growth requires a stable political set up, which doesn't go through drastic changes, regularly........

in my opinion, it is pakistan's location which is its biggest asset......if big G gets going, and if india agrees to use pakistan as a throughway for oil and gas, pakistan should benefit greatly.......

however, as in all military regimes, the economy is growing, while the institutions are totally decaying.......i think the benefits of the first outweighed the losses of the second, for the first 3 years of musharraf's rule........now it is the other way around.......

......i have a feeling this economic growth is going to take a downturn, once the civilian-military tussle grows.....pakistan still has a ways to go to get to the stage where economic growth and institution-based govt. can work hand in hand........india is only now reaching that stage........it took it 50 years........pakistan is only now begining this journey.........

re: masadi

I answered your questions, but you have not answered mine.

Ciao

Aslam #113 If Pakistan can do so well despite the political turmoil caused by Musharraf's mischief, then there is no doubt that as and when democracy is restored the future is indeed bright for Pakistan.

Re: # 113
If proper facilities are given, it look economy is getting critical thrusts and appears about rise like rocket. Stock market and real estate is aging strating firing engines. Stock market and real estate ( giant schemes of residential islands) will be acting as locomotive and big G will adding power of additional locomotive power. In all rises inflation is little problem when great expansion takes place. It is always better to have problems of higher growth than "hindu" growth rate of no(low) inflation and no growth. Big G is key thing and Gas from Iran coming is great economic explosion and indians can watch or just pay just fee and join train of prospority as when train of iran/ Pakistan speeds up they will be no come in stops for India. Hope for poor people they join prosperity express train.

#115 Posted by borivili_express on September 30, 2007 3:59:04 pm

hello mo's camel express...

india needs to do what about kashmir? It already has the part it cares about...the part that has the rivers..

Editorial: Pakistan army and the nation

The politics in Islamabad today is posited by the opposition as a battle for civilian rule and the confinement of the Pakistan army to its constitutional role. The lawyers’ community and the opposition political parties may have different agendas up their sleeves, but at the declaratory level it is the civilian-military relationship that everyone is supposed to be trying to correct. Even the ruling party, by keeping a general as president, promises a more reliable reversion to more democracy. The consensus is apparently shared by President General Pervez Musharraf himself. But the antagonists fall apart on whether the post-Musharraf period should be “transformational� or “transitional�.

A Pakistani scholar has tried to “define� the character of the Pakistan army in his forthcoming book. A journalist and an ex-IMF officer, Shuja Nawaz, in his Crossed Swords: Pakistan Army and the Wars Within (not yet published), compares it to the army of Indonesia under Sukarno and Suharto instead of the Turkish army as is often done by those who wish to posit a polarity between the army and the people. He explains that “the army has gradually expanded its remit to include protection of the national ideology, as defined by the army itself. He said this ideology has changed from a loose definition of a Muslim state at birth to an Islamic polity under Zia-ul-Haq, and now to the ‘enlightened moderation’ of General Pervez Musharraf, even as the growing urban population appears to prefer the conservative end of the social and political spectrum�.

The Pakistan army was a professional outfit in the beginning. It accepted the challenge of an anti-India nationalism after the 1947 war in Kashmir and was supported by the country’s civilian leaders. Early Pakistani nationalism was based on the warlike self-image of the subcontinental Muslim, thinking nothing of the strategic mismatch with a much larger and “unconquerable� India as “the other�. This army embraced a tactical worldview during these early years, which in time became a part of its persona. It overthrew civilian governments in a politically conflictual early phase to carry out the anti-India mission it had been bequeathed by civilian leaders but suffered defeats at the hands of India.

After the Pakistani mind began to regard the army as a defeated/discredited entity usurping political space, the army clutched at the “ideology of Pakistan�, a much safer route to its fundamental mission of fighting a “just war� with India. It did so after the last testament of Pakistan’s anti-India nationalism was framed by Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto in his book The Myth of Independence (1969). He reaffirmed confrontation with India as the “grundnorm� of Pakistan’s foreign policy: “1) That the US is in a position to compel both India and Pakistan simultaneously to an arrangement compatible with its own global interests; 2) that the US thinks that its detente with the USSR, coupled with China’s continued weakness, will strengthen its power over Asia; 3) that the US and the USSR are acting in concert to force a settlement between India and Pakistan, which will effectively force Pakistan to accept Indian hegemony in the region; 4) that the US seeks peace between India and Pakistan to use them against China�.

Author Shuja Nawaz says: “It is important for the army to help create a stable national polity by subjecting itself in practice to civilian oversight and control ... [and] on its side, the civilian government needs to ensure that it follows the Constitution fully and does not involve the military in political disputes.� He warns that while the army remains a conservative institution at heart, it is not yet a breeding ground for large numbers of radical Islamists that many fear.

An unspoken consensus in Pakistan against the state’s anti-India-driven mission statement is in place today; only the politician has to begin to articulate it, not only for the economic survival of the people but also for the final “correction� of the “middle class� Pakistan Army. Pakistan’s “revisionist� nationalism has been at the root of conflict in the region and domestic supremacy of the Pakistan army. But once it has been recast in light of the new economic imperatives, redefining Pakistan’s geopolitical location, not as an obstruction to trade routes, but as a trade corridor joining two important land masses in Asia, the Pakistan army will stop representing the uncomfortable strategic “over-stretch� of the state to become a benign institution, insulated against all political upheavals inside the state because these upheavals will no longer jeopardise its mission. *

Editorial: Pakistan army and the nation

2, 10, 20, 1000 u hindus still havent been able to do didly squat about kashmir. india with billions is unable to do anything about pakistan which is not even exporting 2 million dollars

are u hindus eunuchs? all u can do is cry on chowk

#113 Posted by aslam644 on September 30, 2007 1:36:02 pm


IT industry is at a take off stage.


That's what you said in 1999..then in 2000..then in 2001..

I remember back in 1999, the pakis told us they were building an indus technology park in 1999 which would export a billion $ of software in 3-4 years...8 years since you're still at sub-100 million $, that too in call centers..

you should open any outsourcing/contracting trade publication..they're full of news articles about indian companies winning major contracts..there are even a bunch of east european companies winning the small size(5-10 million) contracts...I've never ever read about a paki company winning even a 2 million $ contract...

Masadi doesn’t have a clue about economics, why doesn’t he stick to US elite.
There has been a real turn around in economic scenario in Pakistan it’s not just textiles, cement industry is growing they are even exporting it to India, steel plants are coming up, motorcycle manufacturing is growing by leaps and bounds, IT industry is at a take off stage. Construction industry is booming, there has been a tremendous investment in infrastructure and education.

Pakistan is entering a golden era simply because of its location, situated near the gulf with their surplus cash, the Chinese manufacturing expertise can turn it to a real industrial hub. First there are some major obstacles to be overcome, political stability, power shortages, skilled labour.

Re: # 110

masadi,

.... did i ever tell you that you are a fool ? ..... no, you are not - you are an idiot, a flaming imbecile !

..... now that i have got that out of my system, i am amazed at your single minded obsession with the american elite and can only wonder what caused this psychopathic condition ..... is it possible that it was caused by your failure to cut the mustard in the land of the free and home of the brave and had to return home with a mail order diploma from american pacific ? ...... or is simply because you failed to get laid in your two decades that you wasted on the campuses of prairie view a&m and tuskegee college ? ......... let it out - tell us what ails you ....

The miserable FerozK wrote "While you are foaming at the mouth, please do not refrain from repeating your socialist-religious mantra about the US elites and the glories of socialism and the joys of poverty. "

I'm not foaming at the mouth ever, all I am doing is busting your dimwitted points and I have busted all of them regarding the SC decision, not one has been contested or answered, and then being at peace that I have successfully exposed, for the benefit of the people, their enemies and the friends of the colonials. Regarding the "joys of poverty" don't be so dumb, I never talked about any "joys" of poverty, I have been condemning those that have reduced humanity to animal like existance because of poverty, the elite that you worship. Every time you peons of the West like tahmed and yourself come out thumping your chests in jubilation and victory, your nonsense is dismantled and you whimper away- this is a cause of great joy for me, and nothing to "foam at the mouth" over.

Now you will try all kinds of dishonesty to try to save your dead point which was revealed clearly below. Note that when an amendment is termed illegal it is no amendment to the constitution, it does not stand, and the SC has every right in its function to determine if an amendment was made legally or not, and the 17th was an illegal amendment so regardless of the "procedure" of the legislature, an independant SC should have declared it illegal and therefore non binding....but we know it would never do that because it is "under the gun" of military dictatorship and subservient to it.

The miserable FerozK writes "If a parliament, elected or appointed, cannot make laws under the threat of a gun, why did MMA support the passage of this law? Why did the parliamentarians not resign in protest? Were their perks of power too important?"

Don't try to support your "dead" point, it was dismantled completely. Like I said and as you are trying to waffle around without disproving what I said, a legislature under the Military gun cannot make amendments to the constitution, amendments assume democracy and the will of the people. What the MMA did or didn't do, resign or not resign does not disprove or negate this point one bit. If the amendment was illegal, as a result of this, then the job to check this excess of the legislature and executive falls on the SC. Since the SC is not independant and under the gun of the dictatorship as well it did the same thing the legislature did, appease the dictator. That was my point and it is a standing point, a slam dunk point. Second, issue alive or not, if the 17th Amendment (regardless of its illegality) is not logically supporting a man in uniform running for office (and it does not) then when the SC tries to ignore judgment on it and that lack of judgment benefits the dictator, then the SC is not independant, it is subservient to the dictator and has not done its job.

Regarding me "hating" you. I don't hate you personally. I don't even know you, I hate you ideas of bowing to the colonials and the Americans, and loving those who oppress humanity, and I hate your idea of calling for the US elite to construct continent wide prisons to imprison Muslims, and your idea of giving legitimacy to this farce "war on terror" as if it is something real. Give up your support of colonizers and enslavers of humanity and we can be friends. I cannot be friends with enemies of humanity....

"The most virulent closet jihadi is YLH followed by tahmed."

Ofcourse anyone who does not agree with Indian hogwash and Hindu fascism is automatically a closet jihadi. Proud to be one.

arjun-m,

Twisting what I am saying will hardly change known facts of history. My advice: stick to what I am actually saying instead of second guessing ...


jayaprakash thackerey various#

Please revert to post 27.

zeemax's willingness to behead people doesn't translate into an ability to do so.

If just saying stuff gave someone the power to actually make it happen, the pakis have been saying kashmir banega pakiland for 60 years now...

barking dogs seldom bite...and in this particular case, the dog has no teeth and is on a leash..

Laddu,

As 4 Zeemax saying '..but I'll behead you in a jiffy', my friend, pl dont take his words literally. He cant even behead a murgi...he'd be a great company 4 for weeknd outings, esp mujra types.

As for Hamid2, he's tickler for all chowkies. He's doing the job of tickling us 4 gratis. We must be thankful 2 him.

#84 Posted by MantoLives on September 30, 2007 12:39:49 am


I know facts are not your forte, but the Deobandi Mullahs in Waziristan who have risen up against Pakistan


So Gandhi's people made the paki army surrender in 71 and gandhi's people are making the paki army surrender en masse without firing a shot today?

laddu 102

That was evident all along.

I ahve been on chowk from its very beginning and the only pakistani I have seen with humanistic element is hamidm, he used to be called simple Hamid and he had a friend "tehsin".

There was bilal ahmed who passed away.

The most virulent closet jihadi is YLH followed by tahmed.


Hamidm,

If you are still in contact with tehsin tell him that I remember him foldly.

Re: # 83

"Laddu,

I will anytime take hamidm for a luxurious drink & dinner, but I'll behead you in a jiffy. Idolators are scum. Hamidm is not an idolator.

The blowing up of that rock carving in Swat should be a lesson. We hate idolaters and will kill them all !!!"

We are ready for you!!!

Re: # 86

I think the mask of 'moderation' on Pakistani muslims is off and the evilness of Islamic indoctrination is clear on this site. Every hindu idolator who reads the interacts and justifications offered by 'moderate' muslims for the genocide of my idolator fore fathers and present day terrorism against hindu idolators - whether in the form of attack on the symbols like the statute of Buddha or attack on temples or on innocent civilians through terrorist bombings - should see the carefully inculcated perversity and insensitivity towards human values from their childhoods in their houses and mosques .

In contradistinction to all these so called 'moderates' Masadi Saheb comes out as a far superior humanist.

#97 jay thakeray: i would kick your lying butt before i sent an email to you, you freak.

#96 zeemax: The re-instatement of the CJ was a step in the right direction, and that remains as true today as it was on July 20.

If one is serious about the "rule of law", then one must accept the judgement even if one disagrees with it, and seek other means (political, including the right to peaceful demonstration to signal protest) to resolve the problem. So, what are the options?

1. "guns to match guns", as you say. That is an unworkable option: first, musharraf has overwhelming resources available to him; second, even if it works, there is no guarantee that one dictator will not be simply replaced by another dicatator.

2. Defeat of musharraf in elections, even if twisted to his advantage as he is currently bent on doing: This would call for politicians (including from the king's party) in the current national assembly unite to defeat musharraf anyway. Also unrealistic.

3. Post-election overthrow of musharraf through civil unrest: possible. But even this may not succeed for the same reason as 2 - with characterless politicians, notably PPP and MMA, falling over one another to make power-sharing "deals" with musharraf.

4. Post-election erosion of musharraf's power by the new prime minister: possible. But too many unknowns.

So who the hell knows. One can only pray that the brave people of Pakistan fighting on the streets for what is undoubtedly the right cause - the basic rights of Pakistanis - are spared further bloodshed.

Legality of pak constitution amendments,

In pakistan there is no concept of limits to what can be amended in the constitution. In india, way back in the 70s, there was a case called Keshavanand Bharati case where the supremecourt ruled that there are limits to amendment to teh constitution. They did not define what are the limits, but said that there are something called the "basic structure of teh constitution" which cannot be altered.

In the case of pakistan there is no such notion, there is only the "doctrine of necessity" up help by teh supreme court several times.

It is total bs that that teh court can question the validity of the amnedment, against what, againt some notion of basic structure, notion of doctrine of necessity..

the court can at most look at the amendment on procedural grounds, and nothing else.

long live mushy...TNT jindabad...jinnah zindabad,

Re: masadi # 65

Masadi, you are a disappoinment. Your insults are getting stale...you need to find new and better ones! I know that you can do it! I have unlimited faith in your ability to insult people! Give it a try! :)

Thanks for stating the question and answering it!

If a parliament, elected or appointed, cannot make laws under the threat of a gun, why did MMA support the passage of this law? Why did the parliamentarians not resign in protest? Were their perks of power too important?

This parliament was in league with Musharraf and now, having been denied their share in power, they want the courts to undo their bargain of political greed and its resultant stupidity.

You are right; amendments cannot be tailor made for one person, but this is just what this parliament did when it passed the 17 Amendment in 2002. From 2002 to 2004 and from then to today, it was silent? Why?

I agree, with you on the interpretation of the 17 Amendment, but it still does not absolve the role of the parliament and that was the question to Mantolives.

Justice Rana Bhagwandas talked about his dissent on the basis of "conscience", where was the conscience of the parliament in passing a law it had no right to pass in the first place?

Read the 17 Amendment and you will realize that it copies the (whole) LFO into the constitution and as to what Aitzaz Ahsan said, he was debating the legality of the law whereas the court was debating the reality of the law in its decisions. What was the choice before the court? Musharraf for another 5 years or martial law? Political prudence or judicial recklessness?

This is what I said in my earlier posts, but you choose to ignore it in your personal hatred of me. The issue is not dead; if it can be proven that parliament was not competent to pass the 17 Amendment, as you say, then the duality of the two offices can still be ruled against. The issue is, whether the parliament had the procedural right to do such, and the answer is it did not, beacause in doing so, it significantly changed the nature of the constitution.

As to the interpretation of the constitution, the court can be faulted there, but had it done so and called the 17 Amendment illegal, who have amended the amendment itself?

If this parliament was not the proper authority to pass the 17 Amendment in the first place, as it was not, then how come it can be judged as the right authority to repeal it under the court's judgement?

Aitzaz Ahsan was not arguing the competence of the parliament in the passage of the 17 Amendment, whereas the court was saying it was the competence of the parliament that allowed for the eventuality of Musharraf contesting elections in uniform.

Now, by all means feel free to insult me all the names you can think of, while not answering any of my questions as your past habits suggest. Please feel free to twist my words and quote me out of context and please do not hesitate to sink to the lowest levels of maturity to make your venom known against me. While you are foaming at the mouth, please do not refrain from repeating your socialist-religious mantra about the US elites and the glories of socialism and the joys of poverty.

Ciao

P.S.: Make sure you are wearing a bip, when you foam at the mouth, I would not like your clothes to be soiled!

tahmed 94,

Yes, I did receive your email at the mossad address. You are such a simpleton.

regards

Jay

tahmed32, now you have no choice but to agree with me.

So you were jubilant over 20 July? You thought democracy and rule of people is evident?

How wrong you were. The only rule of people will come with guns to match the guns on the other side. There's no other way. And, Alhamdo-Lillah, that is well on its way.

The site below provides some pictures of lawyers being attacked yesterday by police in uniform as well as in civilian clothes.

http://www.pakistanuncut.com/

jay thakeray #90: You being a proven and constant liar on chowk, your "flood of emails" is as much bs as everything else you have written on chowk for the past 10 years.

And Pakistan will still be there, long after you have been reincarnated as a flea on the back of a cow in Pakistan as punishment for shameless lying.

A sad day for pak sports

Here is teh pak captain telling that muslims all over the world wanted pakistan to win.

from dawn of today


Twenty20 World Cup


I WAS one of the millions who watched the final of the recent Twenty20 World Cup Cricket in South Africa. The match was a cliffhanger where both the teams were equally matched. India was just lucky to have won the match which could have gone either way and no loser was disgraced.

I heard the TV interview with the rival skippers. The Pakistan captain, Shoaib Malik, “thanked the people of Pakistan and ‘Muslims all over the world’ for their support.�

////////////////

the same notion of brotherhood that makes the pakistanis bomb london trains also helps them to win cricket. Long live jinnahic TNT brotherhood.

#89 Posted by viqarm,

The SC will HAVE to rule on the 17th amendment, sooner or later. Remember, three justices including the head of the bench Rana Bhagwandas threw the entire amendment out even though it was not the plea. The question of two offices by the president is not just about one clause (63-1-d) ... it's about the entire amendment. And you'll hear different news soon.

bori 86,

No one is pointing teh finger or accusing the jihadis. We are only interpreting the motives. Once again as a pakistani, the reason is american action in iraq for example, where as we tend to assign the motives based on some tangible rational explanations.

The statues survived the worst of teh islamic invaders, but could not survive the jinnahic jihadis. Satue in itself means nothing, but the mind set and the TNt that acheived it mans a lot.

Response to pakistanis,

In response to my post 23, there was a flood of emails, from within and outside pakistan. Instead of emailing teh desperate pakistanis individually, this is my general response.

Q. How can we be sure that hindu india will support Paki muslims ?

A. You have to go by history, the east pakistanis who came to india were all muslims, and we supported them. In terms human aspirations to escapee from the TNT yoke, there is no religious differences.

Q. Further division of pakistan may not internationally accepted?

A. We do not believe in dividing countries, but as Mrs. Gandhi said " we are obliged to create conditions for the safe return of the refugees.

Q. Does it mean that we have to come to india as refugees.

A. Pakistanis have done taht in the past. You have to escape the army tyranny, follow proven path

Q. If india invades pakistan, they may use the bomb.

A. That is a question of military strategy, which I do not want to reveal now.

Q. Like the mukti bahini, should we call our gurilla army, sindhi bahini.

A. What is in a name, you can even call it MQM.

Q. With strategic depth option of going to afghanisatn gone, what will happen to the pak army.

A. They can choose between the sharks of arabian sea, jihadis of waziristan or the professional army of india.

Q. when can we start crossing into india.

A we are ready when you are ready.


TNT zindabad, those photos zindabad.

#5 ferozk
I disagree with your take on this SC decision, and that of cliftonbridge and mantolives.

It is true that the 17th amendment was passed by the politicians and it is,arguably, not for the court to set it aside.

It is, perhaps, also true that the current petition before the SC was premature. The objection should first have been raised with the ECP - as has been done now - and then appealed later at the SC.

However:
It is not the correct view that the court was being asked to rule on the 17th amendment, or to set it aside. As Aitzaz Ahsan pointed out, the said amendment makes it possible for the current President to hold, also, the position of COAS for the current term. However, it does not legitimize, in any way, a serving COAS to seek a new term for the office of the President as Musharraf is doing now. It is ironic that Justice Javed Iqbal agreed with this fine point, yet was anot among the dissenting judges.

More importantly, if the court wanted to disallow the petition on technical grounds, it should have done so within a day - or two at the most - of the start of hearing. Using this ground for dismissal after nearly two weeks is an eyewash.

Be that as it may, the court may have bailed itself out for now, but not for long; they must realize - and it would be a tragedy if the didn't - that they have pushed the issue into the street. Past experience in Pakistan shows that nothing good will come of it if pursued in the streets. The shameful events of today reinforce that perception.

Lastly, is it really so that the mess if not for the SC to arbitrate? It will end up there once again within a day or two. So what exactly has been avoided with tis inital dismissal?

This time, one hopes, the full bench will hear and rule on it. Whether it is fair to the court or not, that is where it is stuck, and it will be less destructive for the nation if they swallow the bitter pill and rule on it. The alternatives are just too dire to fathom.

#86 Posted by borivili_express,

Bhai ... you said that in the strongest terms. I have been saying the same thing mildly since long to no avail. If the kanjaRs don't understand, Islamists will blow up the entire goddamn shebang.

Not that I enjoy it. The Budhha in Swat or Bamyan didn't threaten me. It was a work of art pre-dating Islam and I would have preserved them. But if this is the way the kanjaRs want to belittle Islam in preserving these over the 1200 schoolgirls in burqas, so be it.

The carvings and the statues of idols are a symbol of kanjarS which have to be blown up.

They will know in due course.

Musharraf bhi zia ki tarha kursi ke saat dafn hoga

laddu are u another crazy conspirator like jay and masadi?

the blowing of the bamiyan buddha was a symbolic step the taliban took it had nohing to with idolators or idolatory, the UN and the rest of the world were wiling to spend millions of dollars on cultural preservation but had cut off aid to afghanistan, while women and children were starving and dying of disease they were restoring statues of stone this angered the taliban and that is why they destroyed them otherwise the statues had been standing for thousand of years and afhans didnt convert to islam yesterday.

but as a hindu who broke a muslim mosque in the 90s u are the ast person to be pointing fingers, tu kya arya samaji hai?

#84 Posted by MantoLives.

Yes the Moplah uprising is a very strong argument you make.

IMHO, it's just that Muslims are different. Gandhi or no Gandhi.

Re: # 75

Jayp,

I know facts are not your forte, but the Deobandi Mullahs in Waziristan who have risen up against Pakistan are Pakistan's old enemies... the progeny of the same Mullahs who were in bed with your Mahatma Gandhi...

Remember there was no TNT when Gandhi-inspired Moplahs started burning Hindus like you alive in 1920s... so blaming TNT for Gandhi's most enduring legacy might fool some people but it does not bode well for objectivity.

Laddu,

I will anytime take hamidm for a luxurious drink & dinner, but I'll behead you in a jiffy. Idolators are scum. Hamidm is not an idolator.

The blowing up of that rock carving in Swat should be a lesson. We hate idolaters and will kill them all !!!

PS: That particular statement was addressed to Maududi... a man much like Masadi obsessed with "conspiracy theories" of the west and who brandished a form of Islamist National Socialism with which he used to abuse people.

As for your abuse against Fatima Jinnah and Mahomed Ali Jinnah for being honest people... here is your hero ZAB's slap on your ignorant little face:

On December 21, 1976, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, late Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto addressed a joint session of the National Assembly and Senate of the federation held to commemorate the centenary of birth of Quaid-e-Azam. Addressing Quaid-e-Azam's portrait hanging on the wall, he said in a most dramatic fashion: -

"Quaid-eAzam!

I know what arrows pierced your heart (during struggle for Pakistan). The British said you were arrogant. This was understandable, because you had refused to bow before them. The Congress leaders and their henchmen called you stubborn. That too was to be expected, because they had failed to trick you. What is not understandable, and what must have certainly bewildered and distressed you is, that the nation, for whose sake you were putting up with all this, was in forefront of your tormentors!"


People like you who got the chance to raise your lots because the man are in the forefront of the abuse against him.

Atleast Bhutto did not do this... which is why his party still puts Quaid-e-Azam's picture above Bhutto's.

Masadi,

There is nothing "polite" about your requests.

You still haven't answered any of the questions because frankly you are the most ignorant person I have come across.

Infact I must say you embody the greatest argument against Jinnah... had it not been for the creation of Pakistan, you would not even be a sweeper. But Pakistan gave freaks like you an opportunity to pose as academics.

Re: # 78

Hamid Miyan,

I share the same feelings for apostates like you - I would love to see the likes of munafiqoons and mushriqoons like you getting de-capicitated by the likes of Sheikh Abu Hamza and Osama - provided Zeemax and others do not get you first.

I do not care if they take your eyes off first or cut off your arms and legs. I only care that they finish off with you first before they turn their attention towards idolators like me.
We hindu idolators survived because our faith is strong enough to survive even the beheadings from zealots like mahmud of ghazni!!

laddu,

.... even though i am not a big supporter of mahmud ghazni, i wish he had castrated your great grand pappy so that today we wouldn't have to put up with you ..... i think it is time to march on delhi again to finish what mahmud started ... unfortunately, our army chief is busy being measured out for new civies ..... one of these days when our army decides to do the job it is paid to do, we will kick your scrawny madrasi ass all the way to sri lanka ...... i don't know about violence and death to idolators, but i fully support violence towards idiots ....... where the hell did you come from ?

Re: # 74
"The curator maintained that the statue belonged to 7th century A.D, and it was the most complete and inspiring symbol of Gandahara art. After the historic statues of Bamyan in Afghanistan, which were destroyed by the Taliban, the swat statue was the sole example of Buddhist cultural heritage."

Bastard Talibanis.........

Re: # 74

Islam is nothing but pure fascism. Violence towards idolators is its clear intentions. It has destroyed hindu idolator temples and idols and would continue to do so till it is enshrined in the PAki constitution as the principles to cohere every law and acts.
TNT is nothing but Islam. It is nothing but violence and death to idolators like me.
Islam is the most heinous and murderous ideology of death that has come on this earth and we need to fight against it in order to survive in the future.

Yet another great day for TNT,

AS the pak troops are driven out of waziristan, now again there are two nations, pakistan and waziristan, thanks to TNT, the local laws are being enforced.

I forgot what did he say in that one speech that contrdicted everything he stood for earlier..."you are free to do anything in accord with islam... as long as pakistan is not an theocratic state.."/ Let me ask, will publ9ic beheading of a few women make a region theocratic...no ...never

from jang of today


Gruesome murder
Sunday, September 30, 2007
The news that another woman has been beheaded by militants in FATA for allegedly being involved in 'immoral activities' is a perturbing and unsettling indication of a hate campaign against women in the region. The note that was found with her decapitated body, claiming that the punishment was in accordance with Shariah and threatening to subject other women involved in 'immoral activities' to a similar fate, is a troubling sign that this campaign is guised in the veil of religion by militants who think that they are the custodians of the Muslim faith. Earlier this month, two women in Bannu, in the North West Frontier Province, were also beheaded because of their alleged role in 'immoral' activities. The situation needs to be taken very seriously and calls for action by the authorities. It is clear that this is a trend that needs to be put to a stop. Far from being pious or righteous, these acts are crimes of a psychotic nature. Even if the victims were indulging in immoral acts, the absurdity of individuals and non-state organizations handing down penalties in private capacities based on notions that are essentially uni

Yet another sad day for pakistan.

The children of TNT, zooming out of the madrassas of pakistan have destroyed yet another budha statue.

I expect the response from tahmed, it is not done by the jihadis, it is the bomb that destroy teh budha, it has nothing to do with islam. islam means peace...bl;ah...

Read teh last item, the police are under attack and they cannot be expected to save a stupid statue. Long live TNT, worship that man who created the monstosity.

from jang of today

Militants blow up Buddha statue in Swat

By our correspondent

MINGORA: Some unidentified militants blew up the historic statue of Buddha in Jihan Abad area of Swat district on Saturday.

Talking to The News, Muhammad Aqleem, deputy curator of Swat Museum, said some unidentified militants had exploded the 7th century historic statue of Buddha in Jihan Abad area of district Swat on Saturday night. "This is second attack on the 7th century statue of Buddha. The fresh attack caused irreparable loss to its head and also damaged its shoulders."

The curator maintained that the statue belonged to 7th century A.D, and it was the most complete and inspiring symbol of Gandahara art. After the historic statues of Bamyan in Afghanistan, which were destroyed by the Taliban, the swat statue was the sole example of Buddhist cultural heritage.

"It was seven meters tall and 20 feet high from the land, showing Buddha in the condition of meditation. I don't know what they want to achieve by such actions," he added. Aqleem said he had reported the incident to the local police but he did not think that the police would be able to protect Buddhist cultural sites in swat as they themselves were the victims of terrorist attacks.

From Dawn: It was a peaceful protest but police beat up women lawyers. Policemen were laughing and enjoying it as they were beating lawyers,� said prominent human rights lawyer Asma Jehangir, wearing a blood-stained white scarf.

Lest this is forgetten...

Re: # 54

zakk

You are right. These unarmed electioneering political parties cannot possibly fight with the army. These can at the most share power with it as its lakies as army can understand only the language of the gun (May be local or foreign) or an overwhelming revolution like that in Iran by Khumeni.

damn...caption for the photo was

Supporters of President Pervez Musharraf kiss their leader’s portrait as they celebrate a Supreme Court verdict allowing him to contest the Presidential election, in Islamabad on Friday. — AFP photo

echoboom...looks like the paki junta loves musharuff-ruff...

#67 Posted by echoboom on September 29, 2007 2:47:45 pm

Musharuff-ruff, uncle sam's kutta, is going to be the president for the next 5 years...

the jihadis are going to get bombed..

get over it..

Re: # 67

I agree with you totally. The evidence speaks for itself. All the forces of corruption, occupation, and evil are on one side and mou;lvi is on the other side. That is the reason from Shaytaan Buzurg to snakes like Muchcharraf, to whores like BB & MQM, to earthworms like sirkari moulvis, corrupt state machinery, and charlatan politicians are on one side and moulvis are on other side. This moulvi has risen up it has inspired two thousand school children to rise up, which has shown the beacon of light to millions of oppressed ordinary people lawyers, teachers, mothers, daugthers, students showing them that forces of evil no matter how strong how corrupt, how oppressive, can be brought down to their knees.

Urstruly:
Well said.

The situation is such that any Daakoo is better than a wage-earner turned President. A doctor raping is judged differently than a street rapist. The Street rapist is NOT under oath, he is not fattening himself on taxes of avaam.

I despise wage earners and especially the ones who work for the Government..the military & the civil servants..some servants! these thUggs. These Cantonment & Colony Kuttaas lead safe lives..they are not risk-takers..unlike any other class in Pakistan which is self-employed & is talented..even the worst Maulvi becomes powerful because of his talent & not because of being raised as a puppy in the Cantonment & Colony Kennel. So no need on your part to be apologetic for Maulvi as a CLASS. If CLASS is being despised here than we must despise the ARMY as a class[& it does really need our scorn]..Never ever blame a Maulvi, or grocers, Dhotivallaas etc against a name such as Muchharraf. Name against name..class against class..gender against gender is always a fair comparison.

Kindly teach this to the Cantonment Kuttaa...the one who is cock-eared on His Master's Voice records.

Re: # 63

And you are well aware of my views on dispecable sirakri moulvis. As a matter of fact I have written time and again that the what I refer to as 'corrupt oppressive ruling class' is not a class as it is understood by the common jargon created by daerly departed commies. What I reffer to as class is in fact a mindset and any person whether he wears shalwar or coat, beard or mustache, uniform or dhoti can be a member of this social class due to their mindset. This mindset is the mindset of vassalage, which is a burden on us from the days of our colonial occupation. This is a mindset of corruption, contempt for your fellow brethern, and down right hostility towards our values, traditions, and ethics. This mindset thrives in corruption and survives by oppression. This is the mindset that compels a brown skinned desi to act foreign in his own land and have contempt for his brethern. Some moulvis are very well memebrs of this class and use religion to maintain and strengthen this mindset of vassalage. The article 17 was one of such crime committed by these bearded whores against the people of Pakistan.

But just as anyone who weras a pants and coat and eats food with knife and fork is not a memeber of corrupt social class that actcs as custodian of western interest in Pakistan, every bearded person cannot be a moulvi as well. It is our character and actions that define us. Moulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi Shaheed was also a bearded moulvi but he is the one who laid down his life fighting the corruption in society and occupation forces of Pakistan. His actions have defined his character. Musharaf and fazlurahman or Qazi appear diametrically opposite in appearnce with each other and yet they r probably the most despicable and shamelss characters in the sad history of Pakistan. In comparison the fornicator and adulterer dicattor Yahya Khan appears as a choir boy.

A few amendments to my post #50 addressed to the miserable FerozK:

The Original Post:

Of course, what else do we expect from a supporter of Neo-colonials and their dictators, little wonder that a name of someone Western wasn't thrown out as "authority" in this post. That said this is a bunch of BS. Amendments to the constitutions cannot be made to accomodate one person as against the nation, they cannot be made when the legislature- elected or not- is under the gun of military rule, and further the 17th Amendment (as Aitzaz Ahsan made clear quite clearly) does not authorize a military general in service to run for presidential elections. It merely allows the current president to maintain his uniform until November of this year, both are logically very different and sorting out both the legitimacy of the 17th amendment as well as the logicality of the claims is the INTERPRETIVE function of the SC from which it DELIBERATELY ran away to produce this veiled support of dictatorship....



The Amended Post:

Of course, what else can we expect from a supporter of Neo-colonials and their dictators, big wonder that a name of someone Western wasn't thrown out as "authority" in this post by him. That said this is a bunch of BS. Amendments to the constitutions cannot be made to (i)accomodate one person as against the nation, (ii)they cannot be made when the legislature- elected or not- is under the gun of military rule, and further the 17th Amendment (as Aitzaz Ahsan stated in his ramblings the other day) does not authorize a military general in service to run for presidential elections. It merely allows the current president to maintain his uniform until November of this year, both are logically very different (The President can be Army Chief but the Army Chief cannot be President) and sorting out both the legitimacy of the 17th amendment as well as the logicality of the claims is the INTERPRETIVE function of the SC from which it DELIBERATELY ran away to produce this veiled support of dictatorship....

------------

That done, this was a slam dunk post! Reason with that punk.

bjk writes " so corruption will stay (in the same way it continues to stay in day-to-day affairs of state) until an alternative scheme for funding campaigns is developed. In the USA, it takes place via matching funds from the Treasury"

Nonsense, this is a mere cover for legitimizing and mainstreaming the buying of elections in America where no deomocracy exists and where an elite deeply in bed with the corporations not only decides on which issues will dominate and be covered but which (narrow number of) candidates "make it" before any voting takes place. All mavericks are eliminated with or without matching funds- they are not even given slots in major debates or unpaid time on the corporate media. In Pakistan this type of money control is not yet seen simply because the corporations have not dominated our economy and the media is still immature, and the people are already skeptical of the feudals and their representatives. Here people look at results and how much a person understand their problems, that is why the ZAB was the first populist leader of this country inspite of those "big families" that out spent him, the opposition, before the military stepped in, could only muster the "religion card" like the MFJ, where the M stands for MAMA, the F for (F'ing) and the J for Jinnah.

#55 urstruly: need i remind you that it was the maulvis who made the "deal" with musharraf that has introduced the 17th amendment in the Constitution. but dont waste time with little things like facts...

Zakk #54 you write In this vacuum we have the lawyers, the media, the terrorists and the mullahs as the real opposition in Pakistan. The first two being inspiring, the second two being disturbing.

Well put. I would only add that the reason the former are inspiring and the latter are disturbing is because they are fighting for different things:

1. the lawyers and the media are fighting to get back the basic rights of Pakistanis, notably the right to change leaders through free and fair elections, and the right to habeas corpus.

2. The terrorists are fighting to remove the remaining basic rights that do exist to varying degrees today, notably the right to free speech and the right to privacy.

And of course, for mullahs the "prize" is power (same as it is for Musharraf), while for lawyers the "prize" is a free and just society for all Pakistanis.

In addition to #60, I'd like to add the following to #60,

"Reason with that punk!"

Manto writes "... because Bhutto had no programme except the programme to fool the people. And even that could not save him in the end... with a popular uprising against him from all corners... much like the sort we see against General Musharraf today. "

Popular uprising to Manto signifies a military/US induced opposition which facilitates a military dictatorship of the worst kind where an elected prime minister is put to death in a most barbaric manner, sentenced under the force of the gun to which a kangaroo court (the SC) submitted. On the other hand we have the MFJ where the M stands for MAMA, the F for (F'ing) and the J for Jinnah, who was living a comfortable life in the lap of the colonizers till the feudals invited him over to evoke religion to carve out a country that would function as a whore of the colonials.....The difference is big and the difference is clear....

Re #57, 58- what part of "don't hijack this thread" do you not understand. I know full well what the M in MAJ stands for, I was not talking about MAJ but MFJ and the "M" in MFJ is not the same as the M in MAJ, even though the J in both stands for Jinnah. This thread is not on the ZAB/MFJ debate, so might I suggest politely that you run off to another thread and leave us be.....

"came up with reason"

Unless "Reason" means something else in your Bizarro world, abuse and insults do not amount to reason.

Masadi mian,

Please note that M in MAJ stands for Mahomed/Muhammad/Mohammed...

Now your comments about Jinnah were ignorant to begin with... but your stupidity vis a vis ZAB is just hilarious... I wasn't this naive even as a 19 year old when I actually admired Bhutto... and isn't this the same Bhutto who sold out repeatedly to the Mullahs resorting desperately to making Islamic sects "Kafir" .... banning alcohol gambling etc... because Bhutto had no programme except the programme to fool the people. And even that could not save him in the end... with a popular uprising against him from all corners... much like the sort we see against General Musharraf today.


BTW I present to you a "civilian leader" of "ZAB's calibre".

Meet the wadera from Southern Punjab Makhdoom Khusro Bakhtiar ...

Like ZAB... the spoilt brat scion of feudal aristocracy...

Like ZAB... the blue eyed boy of a dictator...

Like ZAB... educated in the finest schools in the west that money could buy and a bad lawyer...

Like ZAB, in his 30s and "Minister of State for Foreign Affairs"..

Like ZAB, a member of the dictator's personal Muslim League (ZAB was part of Ayub's Council Muslim League while there was an opposition Muslim League called the convention Muslim League ... just like today)

Like ZAB, Squeeler the Pig of the Military regime...

Like ZAB, one of the many conpirators to keep people out of power...

Like ZAB, establishment's next big populist politician

There is your civilian leadership of ZAB's calibre.

Manto writes "Honestly in all seriousness, for all his flaws had Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto ever come across this Masadi character, he would laugh so hard at how ignorant Masadi is...

Ironically while the people of Pakistan were under the leadership of Fatima Jinnah waging a war against a US-Backed dictator in 1964-1965... the "civilian leadership" of ZAB's calibre were busy fudging the election for the Military dictator"


The High Priest of the Church of MAJ who was thoroughly and completely defeated is back at it again but I will not let him hijack this thread as well. Those who want to follow the ZAB/M(f'ing)J debate can look through three whole threads where I came up with reason and facts and he came up with copy pastes.

Now, Fatima Jinnah was popular because of her brother and her brother had his support not because of people issues but because of evoking religious exclusion and veiled bigotry. The only people's leader this country had seen who for the first time change the debate from theology to bread and butter issues, regardless of his achievements or lack thereof towards that end, was ZAB and for that reason alone he is the greatest leader this nation has seen to date. For other details read our debates. I will not discuss ZAB/M(f'ing)J here.

The disrespectful corrupt and despicable insult for earthworm SC judges are responsible for legitimizing this m/f again. They had very well in their power to invoke the doctrine of necessity again - i.e. necessity to get rid of anti-Pakistan, anti-Muslim thug mucharaf. For once they could invoke the Doctrine in the favor of Peoples of Pakistan. Not that they couldn't do it. It was very well in their power. They had the power of people, media, and lawyer's community on their back. Most of all they had the power of truth on their back but they chose to be shortsighted, complacent, and disgrace for human race.

It is said time and again that unless we get rid of the oppressive, corrupt social class that acts as the custodians of Western colonial interests in our country such sad and disgraceful days are the fait accompli for the people of Pakistan.

Manto: The reality is the supreme court does not follow either precedent or spirit in it's verdicts.

Also you have to appreciate minus a few exceptions the intellectual of some of the judges and their allegiances are very much suspect. I know off one personally from his early days who frankly was most unimpressive and had dubious links to the present regime.

The reality is the lawyer movement won the CJ's case not because of the SC but in spite of it..whats telling is the end of political parties in the old sense. They stand totally discredited as mechanisms of mobilising society. That is the product of Zias depoliticisation of Pakistani society and the post 88 self inflicted wounds.

In this vacuum we have the lawyers, the media, the terrorists and the mullahs as the real opposition in Pakistan. The first two being inspiring, the second two being disturbing.

Honestly in all seriousness, for all his flaws had Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto ever come across this Masadi character, he would laugh so hard at how ignorant Masadi is...

Ironically while the people of Pakistan were under the leadership of Fatima Jinnah waging a war against a US-Backed dictator in 1964-1965... the "civilian leadership" of ZAB's calibre were busy fudging the election for the Military dictator.

Here is a great article I found in the Time Magazine archives (oh yes the US elite backed time magazine)

Trouble with Mother
Friday, Dec. 25, 1964 Article



"They call her the Mother of the Nation," sniffed Pakistan's President Mohammed Ayub Khan. "Then she should at least behave like a mother." What upset Ayub was that Fatima Jinnah looked so good in pants. The more she upbraided Ayub, the louder Pakistanis cheered the frail figure in her shalwar (baggy white silk trousers). By last week, with Pakistan's first presidential election only a fortnight away, opposition to Ayub had reached a pitch unequaled in his six years of autocratic rule.

The Big Stick. White-haired Miss Jinnah, 71, the candidate of five ragtag and usually disunited opposition parties, was picked mainly because she was the sister and confidante of the late revered Mohammed Ali Jinnah, father of his nation's independence. But Pakistan's response to her razor-tongued attacks on Ayub's highhanded ways has surprised and shocked the government. Students throughout the nation staged angry protest marches against the regime, and at least one demonstrator was killed by police in Karachi. DOWN WITH THE AYUB DICTATORSHIP, cried posters in the East Pakistan city of Dacca, where students enthusiastically proclaimed Miss Fatima Jinnah Week. In Karachi, Pakistan's biggest city, student unrest prompted the government to close all the schools indefinitely.

Most legal groups in Pakistan have come out for Miss Jinnah, and were denounced by Ayub as "mischiefmongers." In reply, the Karachi Bar Association overwhelmingly adopted a resolution urging "the party in power to get rid of the notion that wisdom, righteousness and patriotism are the monopoly of their yes men." The usually complaisant newspaper editors defied the regime's attempts to make them endorse a restrictive new press law.

To Ayub's claim that he is trying to develop "basic democracy," Miss Jinnah replied: "What sort of democracy is that? One man's democracy? Fifty persons' democracy?" As for Ayub's charge that the country would revert to chaos if he is defeated, his rival snapped: "You can't have stability through compulsion, force and the big stick."

Running Scared. Actually, Ayub has been a reluctant and benevolent dictator, who has vastly improved the stability of a country that was paralyzed by squabbling politicians before he took over. Considering Pakistan's backwardness and poverty, the Ayub-designed electoral system is not half bad, giving the vote to 80,000 middle-and upper-class electors. While that is a tiny percentage in a total population of 110 million, most of those millions are not only illiterate but totally ignorant of political issues. With heavy support in rural areas, where many Moslem electors particularly disapprove of a woman's candidacy and where Ayub's economic reforms have helped more than in the cities, Ayub is still expected to win the election by some 60% of the vote.

Nonetheless, he is running scared, because Candidate Jinnah has managed to focus every form of discontent in the country. To brake her bandwagon, he abruptly decreed that elections would be held Jan. 2, instead of March, as originally scheduled. Explaining lamely that the situation is "a little tense," the government also rescinded a law specifying that political rallies must be open to the public.

At closed meetings with groups of electors, Ayub answered practical questions sensibly enough, but kept lashing out at the opposition with growing anger. Countering Miss Jinnah's repeated charge that he had been unable to restrain the U.S. from helping Pakistan's No. 1 adversary, India, he set out to portray her as pro-Indian and pro-American. Ayub's campaign, in fact, was turning increasingly anti-American.

Though U.S. aid (about $5 billion since 1951) is vital to the nation's wretched economy, a leading member of Ayub's party cried: "America never was our friend and never could be, because as a nation aligned with the anticolonial movements, we are at cross-purposes with America." As for Ayub, he plainly regretted ever calling elections in the first place. For after six years of insisting that Pakistanis were not ready for democracy, the campaign had shown that Mohammed Ayub Khan probably isn't either.


The last thing we need is someone like Khusro Bakhtiar becoming another ZAB from within the regime. God save this nation from another Zulfikar Ali Bhuttoady of the DICTATOR.

Very unfortunatel that HP who understands the military and its dictatorship in this country had to agree with the miserable Ferozk

Don't whine fellows about General Musharraf!

Od all the dictators of Pakistan, he is the smartest and can come around to help launch democracy. What do you think Benzair Bhutto is going to launch happy days in Pkistan forever.?

For minute imagine if General Mush is Gen Shwe of Burma!!

Good luck fellows. Take it easy and wait and see.

Kamath

Feroz writes "Note: The decision was based on the existence of the law, the Seventeeth Amendment, which incorporated the entire Legal Framework Order into the constitution and in fact, made it de jure.

Who made the law and passed the Seventeenth Amendment?

The Superme Court of Pakistan or the MMA?"


Of course, what else do we expect from a supporter of Neo-colonials and their dictators, little wonder that a name of someone Western wasn't thrown out as "authority" in this post. That said this is a bunch of BS. Amendments to the constitutions cannot be made to accomodate one person as against the nation, they cannot be made when the legislature- elected or not- is under the gun of military rule, and further the 17th Amendment (as Aitzaz Ahsan made clear quite clearly) does not authorize a military general in service to run for presidential elections. It merely allows the current president to maintain his uniform until November of this year, both are logically very different and sorting out both the legitimacy of the 17th amendment as well as the logicality of the claims is the INTERPRETIVE function of the SC from which it DELIBERATELY ran away to produce this veiled support of dictatorship....

The SC of Pakistan voted to maintain the status quo and therefore its decision (or lack thereof) was an endorsement of Musharraf. It decided similar to what the SC of Pakistan (subservient to the military) has been doing throughout the short history of Pakistan, nothing has changed. Even in the best scenario, if this decision was to prevent a premature Martial Law, even then justice was subverted because the decision was not made on the merits of the case. The SC in both cases failed to check the excesses of the Executive and the Legislature and acted against the interests of the people. Its decision has made this country a laughing stock of the world where democracy is concerned, a military general in office running for the civilian presidency of a country- a banana republic of clowns....

On a positive note, the lawyers/journalist protest that was witnessed today in Islamabad was the positive unforseen consequence of the manufactured CJ crisis. Whenever the US elite and its occupation force play games in our countries, they produce byproducts and conseqences that they have either not figured or ignored in their equation. Let the transitory period of "manufactured" democracy come and then another martial law, they will produce similar unforseen consequences that will be a major thorn in the side of the neo-colonials and their occupation force. Every new martial law diminishes the value of the Pakistan Army in the eyes of the Pakistani public, now it is at a very low ebb, one more martial law and this military is done for in Pakistan, then it is open civil war, what emerges from it is anyones guess.....the hypocritical experiment of the MAJ and the colonials has gone sour,let us hope we don't enter the union in this weakened state, we need civilian leaders of the calibre of ZAB...

Jis ki laatthi uss ki bahinss!

The honourable justices of the Supreme Court are not stupid. They have saved Pakistan from the imposition of Marital Law.

hamidm #46 Alas, you seem to have developed the Stockholm Syndrome. Look at the facts: Musharraf made "deals" with mullahs that changed the constitution so it was tailor made specifically for one man, namely Musharraf. Musharraf allowed lal masjid maulvis to kidnap women, destroy shopkeeper's property, and otherwise intimidate the Islamabad population. Musharraf sic-ed mqm thugs on peaceful protestors. Go back, and everything is about putting his highnessin power - he sabotaged the Pakistan-India peace efforts with Kargill even as NS was in discussion with the Indian PM. This man is a walking, talking basket case!!

Re: # 44

tahmed,

.... stop whining and, like i said, support a winner ..... from what i have seen on tv, most of these lawyers are fools who should be spanked and sent to bed without any pudding .......

..... long live musharraf !

long live baba-i-jamhooriyat !

guys, stop whining and wringing your hands over spilt rooh afza ...... it is all over - musharraf has won, fair and square, and all the bearded knaves, dupattaed queens and sherwanied jokers can't do a thing about it ......

..... as far as poor abdul is concerned, he does not have the energy to drag his sorry keester out on the street to protest for or against something he doesn't really care about - all he wants is two square meals a day and half a roof over his head ....... every now and then a madrassa queer, jilted by his lover, will blow himself up in a bazar in bannu or charsadda but nobody will miss him and life will go on .......

..... pretty soon most of these knaves and jokers will fall in line for their share of the loot at the bandar baant that will follow the presidential election ...... everyone who gets a few peanuts will be happy - even the thieves of gujarat will settle for a coalition govt in the punjab as long as their man can stay on as chief minister ...... the queer in yellow turban will continue to preside over the choir boys in the frontier and play footsie with strange bed fellows in baluchistan .... bb will be happy with her share of the loot and it is quite possible that the constitution will be amended once again to let her become pm and musharraf's bitch ..... our constitution proves the fact that it is possible to reuse soiled toilet paper .....

... so stop whining and get in line behind a winner ..... nobody likes a looser .......


musharraf zindabad !

p.s. i apologize to all the thieves, knaves, jokers and queers on this forum

#43 They are beating up lawyers in Islamabad at this time.

OMG, why spill the blood of peaceful protestors? Sigh!

http://hindustantimes.com/PhotoGallery/Photos_Storypage.aspx?category=p rotestsinpakistan

(N.B: India is no different though)

Actually my question is a little different. The question is that whether the National Assembly can even pass a constitutional amendment that seeks to amend the basic structure of the constitution...

According to the established case law, the basic structure of the 1973 constitution is:

1. Pakistan is a Federation.

2. Pakistan is a Republic.

3. Pakistan is a Parliamentary Democracy.

4. The state religion of Pakistan is Islam and no law can be made repugnant to Islam in Pakistan.


This basic structure can be amended only if a constituent assembly is elected. Otherwise the basic structure cannot be amended ... though the constitution can be.

The question is whether the 17 amendment itself amends the the basic structure of the constitution.

re: bjkumar # 40

That was a very good post.

re: Mantolives

Please consider the following, if you will.

There is no prohibition on the re-submission of the petition, and it can be re-filed but on a diffrent constitutional argument.

The legal issue is not dead. It has been adjourned sine die. It can be revived when a new petition is filed.

Does this mean that a new petition challenging the duality of the offices, if it holds the parliament as a defendent instead of an individual, will have a better chance of success?

To borrow your from your idea, it would make good sense if there is a new petition filed, before the Supreme Court, that raises the question, whether the parliament has constitutional competence and the right to pass a law that violates the constitution itself?

(I think, that this seems to be the next phase of the process)

In other words, asking the Supreme Court to define the legislative powers of the parliament itself and in the process, giving it the power of the judicial review over all acts of parliament.

I think that you are right; the real question is whether the parliament has the power to make extra-constitutional laws.

If such a petition is filed and it is held to be in violation by the Supreme Court, then that would automatically anull the law that allows Musharaff to hold two offices and also make him ineligble to contest the elections at the same time. Is this a correct assumption?

The key, right now, is to follow the correct procedure by asking the right questions and in turn, forcing a constitutional debate on the issues in the fora of Pakistani public opinion.

Looking forward to your comments.

Ciao

(This is a bit changed from what I said on Dr. Siddiqa’s article elsewhere.)

We of the subcontinent find it easy to put our trust in individuals (or group of individuals as represented by the SC) to guide us and to deliver us from our problems – while we ignore the systemic weaknesses – and when those individuals fail us, we turn upon them in ferocity. The reality is that the politicians, the judges, as well as the khakis come from among us and they share our same faults (and in fewer numbers, our virtues).

Democracies are inherently more expensive to operate because those require more resources – both for the purpose of outreach to the masses (to entice them to vote) – and also because the democratic process itself is slow (since consensus of any kind takes a lot of time to develop), therefore is more resource intensive.

One reason that democracy does not work well in Pakistan is – it is difficult to afford and Pakistanis are both poor and also a rather impatient lot (probably all that goat meat :)!

True, the greed of individual leaders may be one reason for corruption but it is not the only reason – it is perhaps not even the driver. It is impossible to fight and win an election without significant resources, so corruption will stay (in the same way it continues to stay in day-to-day affairs of state) until an alternative scheme for funding campaigns is developed. In the USA, it takes place via matching funds from the Treasury. (Even that is not enough, therefore the various interest groups who contribute to the campaign end up gaining a lot of clout.)

The best one can hope for is to have a system of checks and balances so nobody feels that one can simply get away with whatever one does. The components of such a system need to be about equally matched and therefore – must exclude the khakis.

all this to-ing and fro-ing has convinced me that the current lot of politicians and military men alike cannot solve pakistan's problems as the whole edifice is corrupt. it needs to be uprooted and started afresh. the only thing that can achieve that is some kind of popular revolution.

Sure of course Yasser, I would.

It's not definitely in ToP. Hope I can get that piece of info soon.

Re: # 34

It is about the procedure. I think the correct question that needs to be asked is whether the National Assembly had the power to make the 17th Amendment when it is clearly in violation of the basic structure.

But ... I am afraid we are too late in the day for such logical arguments.

VRV,

Please do share that with me. That would be an excellent slap on the face of the ruling PML. Even the incident I was referring to was similar.

Manto,

It's abt contesting elections in Pakistan itself. That fellow wanted to contest the Assembly elections. Jinnah tells him not to think of that if he's not resigned his job first as an army man.

#30 Posted by MantoLives,

Yes I agree with #26, but differ in that the Judges can either decide on technicalities or the spirit or both. That's their discretion. In this case, even though the technicalities were against the petition, the spirit of the 1973 constitution wasn't. SC decided on the former but not the latter. But I hasten to add it was correct given the present circumstances.

I saw Ch. Aitezaz first hit in the stomach with a stone hurled by the police, and then beaten by lathis. While all he was trying to do was to prevent violence on both sides.

I don't think anyone will accept this. The confrontation will escalate.

As Roedad Khan said "... ab Allah hi hafiz hai ..."

No Manto, that's not the guy. It's post-45/47 era. I think the guy was of the rank of captain or there about.

I need to look for my notes.

VRV,

It is rumored to be General Akbar Khan. Apparently it was a group of Army officers who approached him to protest against the retention of British Army officers... one of the officers was Ayub Khan.

1. reminds me of

Yaar Zee... I don't have any. As far as the topic was concerned I already gave my views in #2... Wasif2's comment in #26 is right on the money.

But the events of today have just shown us that things are quickly coming to an impasse which no side can afford. The violence against Aitzaz Ahsan is deplorable... hardly the "enlightened moderation" of which the regime is a votary.

This judgment reminds of a case of history where a serving army officer was told bluntly by Jinnah to resign his army first job b4 he can think of contesting elections. I forgot the name of the officer (cant find the notes abt this incident).

Btw, can we ascribe any mtoives to the CJ when the full bench gave its judgment, though the current CJ gave a favourable judgment to Mush in good olden days.

#27 Posted by MantoLives,

Yaar Manto ... we're waiting for your expert comment re the subject :)

I must say as far Jayp is a perfect match for Masadi when it comes to being full of one's self.

Yaar I hate to break it to you but somebody has to:
Jayaprakash Thackerey you are a loser. You will always be a loser. There ain't nothing you can do about that.

the only thing that the supreme court said in yesterday's decision was that this case could not have been "directly" filed before the SC.... because it did not involve a question of any of the Petitioners' "fundamental rights" listed in the Constitution. this is correct. which fundamental right-- and of which petitioner--- was being violated ? you can only file a direct petition to the SC if a fundamental right is violated and (not "or") the matter is of public importance.... this case only fulfilled one test i.e public importance.... so these guys should have gone to a High Court where you can file a writ on any breach of the law ... no fundamental right violation or public importance required. If the HC dismissed their petition, then only, should they have filed an appeal to the SC. This recent trend of directly rushing to the SC (put into vogue by Iftikhar Chaudhry CJ by his suo motos)on every bit of issue is quite ridiculous anyway.

the SC was probably also giving these guys the message that we are not here to clean up your shit.... and that you cant expect to do your "politics" through us. Politics is done on the street...with the people. Not in courtrooms.

the only thing wrong with this decision is that they took so long to throw out the petitions.

Re: # 21

Ch Aitezaz I can respect, but that twerp Kurd he had it coming.

Romair, 22

That is a good twist to the reality, having been deported ball and chain to pakistan...you want others to follow, well they all will follow you...only with ball and chain

".i suggest, as a first measure, all pakistani expats on this site (urstruly, hamidm, hp, tahmed etc.) take the first flight to pakistan........they should, at least, be in the country, if they feel so passionately about this issue....."

Ray of hope,

On this day as teh dark clouds of sadness poisoned by hopelessness decent on the elites of pakistan, look to teh east, and just as teh sun, there is a dawn breaking out, out in the east. In teh waziristan, the army has been defeated, the local govt offices are being progressively taken over by the taliban, and they have created their own local rule, with their own legal system.

The same is possible in other areas of pakistan also, and a good starting point is karachi. The narrow streets of karachi can be as lethal as the deep ravines of waziristan, and as iraq shows, any organized army can be defeated in the streets of cities.

The people of pakistan cannot do this with some sort of outside help, and help will always come where there is a will, a determination for the oppressed people to be free.

We are ready to help, the hindu jewish combine, we are in contact with atlaf hussain, and any of teh chowl interact ors can contact me at the easy to remember address.

Always remember the mukti bahini, we did not let them down, gave them a new country...and trust us, it is your turn now.

jay.takenayahu@yahoo/mossad.com ( this will fool teh pak ISI system because of yahoo)

and for others not in pakistan use

jayp@raw.gov.in.

For ylh, I promise in teh name of moon god that I will not let the ISI know, and for tahmed, dont worry, use the mossad address and it will fool the CIA.

in retrospect, the supreme court has made the correct decision......they have interpreted the law.....this decision could have been viewed as being made, "under pressure," had the previous cj case not taken place.......however, the supreme court ruled against musharraf in that case, even though there was far more pressure on it......it has ruled against him in the nawaz sharif case, despite pressure.......and in the missing person's case.......

......basically, the supreme court has put the ball back where it belongs, i.e. in the assembly (and senate).......and then eventually to the people......it has said that it looked after its cj, when the need arose, however, the president/prime minister issue is to be decided by the legislature......if the legislature makes a law that a monkey can be president, then supreme court has to rule in favor of the monkey.......

......so now the true face of the politicians will be exposed.......as they cannot hide behind the supreme court, any longer.......in addition, the true face of the public will be exposed also.......are they just keyboard warriors, or are the willing to come out into the streets.......

i think, considering the amount of discussions that take place on chowk on such political subjects and the emotion with which they take place, the chowk crowd should be the first onto the streets.......if they (we) are unwilling to do so, then there is really no one else to blame......

.......i suggest, as a first measure, all pakistani expats on this site (urstruly, hamidm, hp, tahmed etc.) take the first flight to pakistan........they should, at least, be in the country, if they feel so passionately about this issue......

The shallow logic of kanjaroon liberals of Pakistan never ceases to amaze me. Ch. Aitezaz has been severely beaten with Lathis today and badly injured. Ali Ahmed Kurd was knocked down to the ground and beaten with rifle butts and kicks and then carried off. These are no street thugs but prominent liberal intellectuals who only got beaten because they were unarmed.

This imbalance of force between the two sides can only be corrected by those who DO have arms ... just as the tables are turned in Waziristan and Swat. Public opinion will follow once they see the usurpers and lathi chargers bloodied in the streets just as lawyers are today.

Watch this space !

re: HP # 6

Agreed!

It does open up some interesting possibilities and as to the Islamic groups controlling the streets, HP, my view is that their influence though vocal and violent will be limited.

Islamic groups, without outside support, will have a hard time to win the popular opinion, because the people have wisened up - the real issues the average person cares about is the price of flour, tea and sugar; crime and law and order, inflation etc. The real issues will marginalize the trival issues, which the politicans keep mouthing and the same goes for the Islamic parties.

Their political-religious message, to be successful, has to resonate with the people and not threaten them!

The politicans are, and have been, out of step with the popular view and that is one reason, why the politicans have not been able to mobilize the people. No one is willing to face death and be shot for the sake of criminals and plunders and looters and liars and cheaters and this is what you hear on the streets and what the people are thinking.

The people have seen through the politicans and now with the Supreme Court decision and its reasonings, the politicans also stand discredited in the public forum. It is not the end, by any means, but a level of political muturity, if not sophistication, has developed in the Pakistani public awareness.

The Supreme Court did right by it's decision and refused to be held accountable for the misdeeds of the politicans and finally, has made the politicans accountable for their own actions!

Ciao

#16 Posted by jayp,

I'm glad you agree. But then remember my posts from several months ago ... that there'll be another 2 years of contrived democracy experiments, and then:

Sheeshey Key Ghar Mein! Mojaan hi Mojaan"

yeah jay parkash...big words from a communal hater...now go burn a diya infront of the modi portrait..n put a garland on it..u biggot

Abu saab,

I exist only in teh chowk posts, I am the words, there is no phusical me, and as such all your personal remarks about me is what characterises you as apkistani, schooled but never educated, and such cannot distinguish the man and the ideas.

Learn for teh first time, I am a merchant of ideas on chowk, I am the ideas. Chowk is a market place of ideas.

Zeemax,

I totally support that. Finally army would have cpatured the last remaining pak institution, parliment. The courts, well as the judgement of today shows, can only interpret teh laws that army makes. In any case, if the army does not like that interpretation, they can change the laws.

The beauty of teh pak system is that the military is funded by the yanks, and as the talk of benzir return shows, the yanks will decide who the other pak puppet in the government is.

Best suggestion I heard today is that the general elections should only be within the army, and all parliamentarians plus the president should be elected from the army regardless of their rank. Just leave the public out of it!

whats provocative is u showing up while soaked in cow-piss...a serious quandary..do u veggies bobble ur head while typing english as well or is it just a conversational malfunction?

Posts 11 and 12,

Instead of calling me names, please do read my post, it is a view different from what you have read on chowk, reflect on it, think and discuss it, and that will improve the self critical faculty of both of you.

The religious beliefs have conditioned you both to obey, follow what is in the book, and my posts provide you some lateral perspectives, definitely you cannot find them in the book.

I can understand your anger at teh blasphemic ideas I am posting, but read them, they are original, they are provocative.

An as expected decision from the the supreme court of a failed state is not a sad day for pakistan. The following news is the first time confirmed crash of a US aircraft inside pakistan. That is a clear sign of sad day for pakistan.

From jang of today

US drone crashes in N Waziristan

By Mushtaq Yusufzai

PESHAWAR/MIRANSHAH: A pilotless US spy plane crashed about 15 kilometres inside Pakistan’s border village Land Mohammad Khel in North Waziristan Agency on Friday evening.

Local residents told The News from Miranshah by phone that the CIA-operated drone, was flying over North Waziristan when it fell on the village. Locals rushed to the spot and started collecting equipment of the destroyed plane.

The Predator reportedly came on the ground due to technical fault. Land Mohammad Khel, about 25 kilometres west of Miranshah, where the drone crashed, is the hometown of pro-MMA MNA from North Waziristan Maulana Nek Zaman.

Military spokesman Maj-Gen Waheed Arshad, when contacted, confirmed the crash inside the Pakistani territory and argued it could have most probably lost its direction due to technical problems. “The local administration has been directed to collect information and probe how the US spy plane crashed inside our territory,� explained the spokesman.

jayp aka gao mootarr..abbayy why r u guys fascinated with pakistan..get over ur low self esteem grab a beef biryani..after which u'll have enuff courage to save ur mother..they r burning her alive..run save her.,.just cause the dad died doesnt mean mom has 2 as well u morons

Jayaprakash Thackerey get a life man. Whatever that Pakistani did to you ... you still have no locus standi in the matter.

It was only a few weeks ago pakistanis were celebrating the dawn of judicial activism, the new mantra that will finally deliver heaven for pakistan, a heaven better than the jihadic heaven. Now all are disappointed, nothing to be disappointed about, the leag structure that accepted repeatedly the doctrine of necessity, was morally bankarupt a long time ago.

A society that has never seen the rule of law, cannot expect the legal system to have some prinicples, how can camphor survive in wild fire.

The latest taw that allows army and other govt officals to simultaneously hold political positions is simply the legalisation of what has been happening in pakistan. Most of teh senior govt positions are held by military, now they will also hold political positions.

At last teh constitution of pakistan asserts

" the army has a country, Pakistan"

It is time for the pakistanis to accept the relality, and serve under the military yoke. There is a choice, teh jihadic yoke.

Jaisa karoge vaisa bharoge!!

Its the job of politicians to overthrow the martial-law in pakistan....supreme court wont do it cause...they dont have apparatus to take on the Army...only the ppl of pakistan thru some kind of political movement and uprising can take the governance away from the Army...if ppl stand up..army'll stand down...Qazi hussein can say what he likes about apex court but he needs to bring the crowd out of there home...i m saying 30,000 ppl...thats a small number marching towards presidency..will do what he is begging supreme court to do

Feroz,
I posted this on the other board before I read your post here. I guess we have drawn essentially the same conclusions so there is no harm in posting it here also.

The new SC decision is interesting and basically Judges made the point that since the politicians in the assembly approved the current situation via the 17th amendment, now it is politicians’ job to change that decision. This actually is a good thing. Pakistani politicians were looking for the shortcut via the SC and that was an unreasonable expectation. The SC very effectively shot that down.

The struggle between the army and the civilians is direct now. The politicians, the Lawyers and other democratic loving people should now think about a direct confrontation with the army in the streets of Lahore, Pindi and other towns. The SC saga was created to limit the struggle for the democratic rights. However, the new judgment has placed the onus back on the political leaders to mobilize common man to lead this fight instead of a few judges in the Supreme Court. Small numbers of Judges can always be bought and sold but none can by millions of people.

As Najm Sethi today pointed out brining people out on the streets opens some unacceptable possibilities and one of them would be to allow the Islamist goons and Hayvanoons to control the streets and ultimately use that to usurp power. I guess that risk now has to be taken.

It is NOT the SC’s job to establish democracy in Pakistan. It will always be something that people of Pakistan will have to accomplish. Relying on crutches like the SC or the internal difference in the army or even the US pressure would not provide the ultimate relief to people of Pakistan.

Musharaf and the army have been thoroughly discredited in Pakistan and it is a matter time and some more pushes from the people to finally end the ignominy of living under the army rule.

re:Naeem Sadiq

I agree, with cliftonbridge, Mantolives and philosopher.

The real issue here was the supremacy of the law and independence of the judiciary in Pakistan.

The disappointment of the verdict aside, the decision of the court should not be simply taken as an acid test against or for Musharraf. In Pakistan, what we urgently need is the institutionalization of the process and the procedures for debating, and resolving and accepting and ultimately, respecting the final decision. The emphasis in Pakistan, and where Pakistan needs to pay attention is towards the idea of the supremacy of institutionalism and not the supermacy of the individual personalities.

Presently, the decision of the court might be a bitter pill to digest, but there is hope in the disappointment. The Supereme Court's decision, when looked into from the perspective of the nature and role of the court itself, makes sense. It is about the upholding of the idea of seperation of powers in Pakistan even, when in reality the seperation of powers in Pakistani politics is murky.

What the court was saying was that it is not the responsibility or the function of the court and law to legislate the legislative process.

Through this decision, the court has, ironically, reinforced the idea of the seperation of power by suggesting that it cannot make laws; only parliament can make laws. Through this decision, the court has squarely blamed the parliament for passing the Seventeenth Amendment and has also said, that parliament and politicans and not the courts should make the law.

It has, via this decision, maintained the independence of the judiciary as a seperate branch of the government and did not allow the judiciary to slip into deciding legislative issues.

The job of the judiciary is to define, interpret and implement the law of the land and not make the law itself.

This is the far-reaching and the consquential result of the Supreme Court's decision.

One only has to thank the fickle minded and self-serving politicans for making the law that allowed Musharraf the legal legitimacy, which he needed to contest the elections in uniform!

Note: The decision was based on the existence of the law, the Seventeeth Amendment, which incorporated the entire Legal Framework Order into the constitution and in fact, made it de jure.

Who made the law and passed the Seventeenth Amendment?

The Superme Court of Pakistan or the MMA?

Solution to the problem, as the court has said is simple. Parliament can change the law and if the offending amendment is removed, then the illegality of dual offices becomes a matter of the law and can be judged upon.

This is a landmark decision in the history of Pakistan, because it states clearly the importance of following a procedure to change the law - acts of parliament instead of judicial ad hocism, no matter how expedient it may seem in a given moment for a particular reason.

The Doctrine of Necessity has been rejected, because the supremacy of the law and means of the law have been upheld.

Ever since the dismissal of the Chief Justice of Pakistan to his restoration; to Nawaz Sharif returning, all the decisions have been made on the existing codex of laws in Pakistan.

Regardless of the decision, what has triumphed has been the process of the law itself and had the Supereme Court done, what you hoped; the idea and independence of a judiciary in Pakistan would have ended!

Ciao

Please stop whinning, pakistanis seem to be incapable from understanding that justice isnt only justice when you like the outcome. The courts uphold the LAW. Maybe you need to read the constitution to understand their ruling.

Re: # 2

I totally agree with you. A constitution which can be converted into a 'Fatwah'(an edict) on the faith of the people, which only God knows about, can also declare the man in 'wardi with the gun' to be the only fit person to rule the country, turned virtually into 'Yakistan' now.

I am unable to understand the argument here.

Supreme Court can only do what the law allows it to. The law has been established by the 17th Amendment to the constitution.

Ofcourse the judgement was on technical grounds. I think Rana Bhagwandas did everyone proud by being a dissenter to the judgement but that said... the judgement of the larger bench stands 6 to 3.

I don't agree with it but one must respect it or else we would be picking and choosing for ever.

naeem

This is not doctrine pf necessity. it is the doctrine of ''survival'' of supreme courte.