Dillu Ram Kausari: The Hindu Poet who Loved The Prophet
Asif Naqshbandi September 28, 2007
#209 Posted by Naqshbandi on October 17, 2007 4:28:57 pm
laddu,
despite your fervent wishes we're not going to chnge islam to please you so why dont you give it a rest?
despite your fervent wishes we're not going to chnge islam to please you so why dont you give it a rest?
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#208 Posted by laddu on October 10, 2007 1:00:38 am
Re: # 207
Zahid Saheb,
"Proselytizing" is a UNIVERSAL urge in humans - whether for following an Atkins diet or for praying to a formless God.
But , the jump from the urge to proselytize to the URGE TO KILL and commit violence is peculiar to Islam because the Prophet was ruthless in suppressing those who did not agree to considering his word as that from the formless GOD.
Further, Jesus spoke in PARABLES, so the 'fishing' thing is only a parable. But Prophet's words are not considered as parables but taken literally true. That is the difference between the treatment of Gospels and the Quran and their traditional interpretors.
As, I said , the real evil in Christian world is that joker in the funny hat called Pope and his Church that insist upon literal interpretations of the parables of the gospels.
Then , early muslims did not demolish EVERYTHING- nor did the later ones demolish everything in hindu idolator land - they ensured that the temples were DEFACED!!!
I repeat - DEFACED- so that the dhimmis are reminded of their vanquished status and keep on paying the gunda tax and are reminded of their status every time they view the DEFACED temples, idols and other symbols of their own vanquished faith!!!
Unless and until modern day muslims DENOUNCE these violent tendencies that arose because their role model in the form of prophet was NOT 'masum' but was a violent and megalomaniac man, I do not see muslims stop killing their own brothers and kafirs in the future.
Zahid Saheb,
"Proselytizing" is a UNIVERSAL urge in humans - whether for following an Atkins diet or for praying to a formless God.
But , the jump from the urge to proselytize to the URGE TO KILL and commit violence is peculiar to Islam because the Prophet was ruthless in suppressing those who did not agree to considering his word as that from the formless GOD.
Further, Jesus spoke in PARABLES, so the 'fishing' thing is only a parable. But Prophet's words are not considered as parables but taken literally true. That is the difference between the treatment of Gospels and the Quran and their traditional interpretors.
As, I said , the real evil in Christian world is that joker in the funny hat called Pope and his Church that insist upon literal interpretations of the parables of the gospels.
Then , early muslims did not demolish EVERYTHING- nor did the later ones demolish everything in hindu idolator land - they ensured that the temples were DEFACED!!!
I repeat - DEFACED- so that the dhimmis are reminded of their vanquished status and keep on paying the gunda tax and are reminded of their status every time they view the DEFACED temples, idols and other symbols of their own vanquished faith!!!
Unless and until modern day muslims DENOUNCE these violent tendencies that arose because their role model in the form of prophet was NOT 'masum' but was a violent and megalomaniac man, I do not see muslims stop killing their own brothers and kafirs in the future.
#207 Posted by zahid_e_khushk on October 9, 2007 4:59:42 am
Re: # 206
Laddu Sahib,
The universal mission of Christianity is to be found here which proves it’s innate urge to spread the Word of God:
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Matthews 28:18-20)
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.“ (Mark 16:15-16)
The Apostles did according to the given mission and were persecuted harshly. Later Roman Empire accepted Christianity and the Church used the newly found powers to give momentum to the mission. The Church didn’t invent that ‘soul harvesting’ as you suggest:
“And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.“ (Matthews 4:18-19)
The Church got that authority from the Gospel where we read:
“ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.„ (Matthews 16:18-19)
Human life is to be treated as God’s Will. Fundamentally speaking no one has the right to kill other human beings. It is true that Jews and Muslims are theologically more valorous in confronting the outer evil but it is forbidden in the Islamic Law to demolish prayer houses of other faith or to deny the people of that faith to practice their religion. That’s why early Muslims didn’t demolish the statues of Pharao in Egypt and the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan and Pakistan remained a non-issue until quite recently some overly fanatics saw in those pagan practices an abuse of their own faith like some overly fanatic Hindus decided to demolish mosques in India. This misunderstanding is not shared by the majority of Muslims.
You admire Jesus for his non-violent life but he also talked about what would happen to those who don’t follow him:
“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthews 13:40-43)
A more sensible comparison of Muhammed is with Moses who also directed his people to fight the pagans.
Laddu Sahib,
The universal mission of Christianity is to be found here which proves it’s innate urge to spread the Word of God:
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Matthews 28:18-20)
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.“ (Mark 16:15-16)
The Apostles did according to the given mission and were persecuted harshly. Later Roman Empire accepted Christianity and the Church used the newly found powers to give momentum to the mission. The Church didn’t invent that ‘soul harvesting’ as you suggest:
“And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.“ (Matthews 4:18-19)
The Church got that authority from the Gospel where we read:
“ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.„ (Matthews 16:18-19)
Human life is to be treated as God’s Will. Fundamentally speaking no one has the right to kill other human beings. It is true that Jews and Muslims are theologically more valorous in confronting the outer evil but it is forbidden in the Islamic Law to demolish prayer houses of other faith or to deny the people of that faith to practice their religion. That’s why early Muslims didn’t demolish the statues of Pharao in Egypt and the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan and Pakistan remained a non-issue until quite recently some overly fanatics saw in those pagan practices an abuse of their own faith like some overly fanatic Hindus decided to demolish mosques in India. This misunderstanding is not shared by the majority of Muslims.
You admire Jesus for his non-violent life but he also talked about what would happen to those who don’t follow him:
“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthews 13:40-43)
A more sensible comparison of Muhammed is with Moses who also directed his people to fight the pagans.
#206 Posted by laddu on October 9, 2007 3:51:11 am
Zahid Saheb,
Most of hindus would whole heartedly accept Jesus as a man of peace like a hindu renunciant who is freed from Kama, Krodha, Lobha and Moha ( lust, anger, greed and wordly attachment).
Hindus have a concept of Rishi (Seer) and perhaps Jesus was one.
Jesus is hijacked by the devil of Pope and his organized Church trying to make a business out of soul harvesting like what the Dawah Islamists have done for Islam.
Comng back to Jesus - Can we call Mohammad as some one comparable to Jesus even? No way!!! Mohammad was a man who was too much into violence and in the worldly and temporal quest of loot, lust and power. The two cannot be even compared!!
finally, I have already asserted that there is NOTHING INNATE in monotheism that makes them turn into life world threatening fascistic ideologies. If you think that there is any , then you have to put an argument that makes sense.
finally, EXCEPT FOR MASADI SAHEB , despite my repeated exhortations and provocations I am yet to get a statement from any of the Islamists who can say with FULL confidence without fear of kufr that -
IT IS WRONG TO KILL IDOLATORS AND KAFIRS AND IT IS SIN TO DESTROY THE IDOLS, TEMPLES AND SYMBOLS OF OTHER RELIGIONS!!
Most of hindus would whole heartedly accept Jesus as a man of peace like a hindu renunciant who is freed from Kama, Krodha, Lobha and Moha ( lust, anger, greed and wordly attachment).
Hindus have a concept of Rishi (Seer) and perhaps Jesus was one.
Jesus is hijacked by the devil of Pope and his organized Church trying to make a business out of soul harvesting like what the Dawah Islamists have done for Islam.
Comng back to Jesus - Can we call Mohammad as some one comparable to Jesus even? No way!!! Mohammad was a man who was too much into violence and in the worldly and temporal quest of loot, lust and power. The two cannot be even compared!!
finally, I have already asserted that there is NOTHING INNATE in monotheism that makes them turn into life world threatening fascistic ideologies. If you think that there is any , then you have to put an argument that makes sense.
finally, EXCEPT FOR MASADI SAHEB , despite my repeated exhortations and provocations I am yet to get a statement from any of the Islamists who can say with FULL confidence without fear of kufr that -
IT IS WRONG TO KILL IDOLATORS AND KAFIRS AND IT IS SIN TO DESTROY THE IDOLS, TEMPLES AND SYMBOLS OF OTHER RELIGIONS!!
#205 Posted by zahid_e_khushk on October 9, 2007 2:05:15 am
Re: # 201
Laddu Sahib,
Well said, 'Jesu was a real Prophet'. So the prophethood of someone depends on your check and approval! So, Hinduism is all about world-weariness?
As I said earlier that your pain regarding the conquest of the pagan India by the monotheistic Muslims is understandable but not the denial of the universal mission and call the monotheistic religions have. Your soft corner for the Christian European invaders is also understandable, since they relieved you from the Muslim rule. Those were but nicer times. In the older times the other European invaders who conquered the Americas were not so nice and the pain still lingers there.
Your wish to have a friendly world where people have religious freedom and live without any threat is shared by most people including Muslims. I don't see any imminent invasion on India from any Muslim country so why this rhetoric and Cassandra cries?
You’re apparently unaware of the ongoing peace process between India and Pakistan. Your persistent distasteful remarks about the core beliefs of Islam are a relic of past and no proof of your claim in #193 that ‘Modern Hinduism has evolved and changed’. Such outbursts are certainly not contributing to the peace process in a constructive way.
Laddu Sahib,
Well said, 'Jesu was a real Prophet'. So the prophethood of someone depends on your check and approval! So, Hinduism is all about world-weariness?
As I said earlier that your pain regarding the conquest of the pagan India by the monotheistic Muslims is understandable but not the denial of the universal mission and call the monotheistic religions have. Your soft corner for the Christian European invaders is also understandable, since they relieved you from the Muslim rule. Those were but nicer times. In the older times the other European invaders who conquered the Americas were not so nice and the pain still lingers there.
Your wish to have a friendly world where people have religious freedom and live without any threat is shared by most people including Muslims. I don't see any imminent invasion on India from any Muslim country so why this rhetoric and Cassandra cries?
You’re apparently unaware of the ongoing peace process between India and Pakistan. Your persistent distasteful remarks about the core beliefs of Islam are a relic of past and no proof of your claim in #193 that ‘Modern Hinduism has evolved and changed’. Such outbursts are certainly not contributing to the peace process in a constructive way.
#204 Posted by majumdar on October 9, 2007 1:17:21 am
Zeemax sahib,
(I would like to make a human sacrifice of you and offer you as burnt offering to your idols :)
That might get you a red card from your God.
Regards
(I would like to make a human sacrifice of you and offer you as burnt offering to your idols :)
That might get you a red card from your God.
Regards
#203 Posted by zeemax on October 9, 2007 1:10:11 am
#202 Posted by laddu,
Laddu Mian,
I would like to make a human sacrifice of you and offer you as burnt offering to your idols :)
Laddu Mian,
I would like to make a human sacrifice of you and offer you as burnt offering to your idols :)
#202 Posted by laddu on October 9, 2007 12:39:46 am
Re: # 198
Who is denying the barbarity of the past.
Angulimal became the person by denouncing mindless violence for self aggrandization.
Ashok became great because of renunciation.
Gotum became Buddha because of renunciation.
Every Dwija is required to renounce the world in the last ashrama of his life.
Prophet was a greedy man - he looted and raped for his one fifth loot. He was a megalomaniac who turned his words into the words of God. He had established an empire of loot when he died and his siblings killed each other for that loot.
contrast this to Jesus who carried no wealth and was a real Prophet and even forgave his murderers like Socrates.
Who is denying the barbarity of the past.
Angulimal became the person by denouncing mindless violence for self aggrandization.
Ashok became great because of renunciation.
Gotum became Buddha because of renunciation.
Every Dwija is required to renounce the world in the last ashrama of his life.
Prophet was a greedy man - he looted and raped for his one fifth loot. He was a megalomaniac who turned his words into the words of God. He had established an empire of loot when he died and his siblings killed each other for that loot.
contrast this to Jesus who carried no wealth and was a real Prophet and even forgave his murderers like Socrates.
#201 Posted by laddu on October 9, 2007 12:29:52 am
Re: # 199
"any one who finds fault with the messenger of Allah is a devil and and an infidel no matter what he may consider himself.
we would rather you wiped us all out before we would ever renounce our Beloved Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam."
Wolfy! You can do anything you want to with your bandit, rapist hero!! We do not mind whether you shout yourself hoarse belching Allahu on the top of your voice 24X7 -
Just stay off the idolators and do not trouble us with your noise and threats of genocide!!!
Just do not think of ever
"any one who finds fault with the messenger of Allah is a devil and and an infidel no matter what he may consider himself.
we would rather you wiped us all out before we would ever renounce our Beloved Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam."
Wolfy! You can do anything you want to with your bandit, rapist hero!! We do not mind whether you shout yourself hoarse belching Allahu on the top of your voice 24X7 -
Just stay off the idolators and do not trouble us with your noise and threats of genocide!!!
Just do not think of ever
#200 Posted by majumdar on October 8, 2007 9:30:47 pm
Wali sahib,
(we would rather you wiped us all out before we would ever renounce our Beloved Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.)
We kaffirooooooons/secularoooooooons/murtadoooooons/ kanjaroooooooons may or may not agree on God or Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) being his messenger or not, we do not see that as any reason for wiping out anyone who believes in Allah and the Prophet being his messenger. Or forcing them to deny their beliefs. Hopefully one day good Muslimooooooooons like you too will be able to give the same respect to us (various) ooooooooooons.
Borivilli mian,
I am not denying the bad deeds of some Hindus against other Hindus sometimes sanctified (allegedly) by religious scriptures.
(I thought Ram was the ideal Arya?)
Some Hanuds do believe that, others dont. But even if they dont, they dont get persecuted under Blasphemy Laws.
Regards
(we would rather you wiped us all out before we would ever renounce our Beloved Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.)
We kaffirooooooons/secularoooooooons/murtadoooooons/ kanjaroooooooons may or may not agree on God or Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) being his messenger or not, we do not see that as any reason for wiping out anyone who believes in Allah and the Prophet being his messenger. Or forcing them to deny their beliefs. Hopefully one day good Muslimooooooooons like you too will be able to give the same respect to us (various) ooooooooooons.
Borivilli mian,
I am not denying the bad deeds of some Hindus against other Hindus sometimes sanctified (allegedly) by religious scriptures.
(I thought Ram was the ideal Arya?)
Some Hanuds do believe that, others dont. But even if they dont, they dont get persecuted under Blasphemy Laws.
Regards
#199 Posted by Naqshbandi on October 8, 2007 8:45:35 pm
any one who finds fault with the messenger of Allah is a devil and and an infidel no matter what he may consider himself.
we would rather you wiped us all out before we would ever renounce our Beloved Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.
we would rather you wiped us all out before we would ever renounce our Beloved Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.
#198 Posted by borivili_express on October 8, 2007 8:44:29 pm
So u deny the actions of hindus against untouchables, dravidians, budhists and tribals? as I expected.
I thought Ram was the ideal Arya?
I thought Ram was the ideal Arya?
#197 Posted by majumdar on October 8, 2007 8:27:34 pm
Borivilli mian,
Hinduism is today much more of a religion of the "Dravidians" and Adivasis than of "Aryans". The chief Gods we wroship today are all non-Aryan.
Shiva/Parvati- Dravidian God of the Indus Valley
Rama- Probably a native chieftain raised to divinity
Krishna- Imported by Semitic tribesmen.
By contrast the Aryan Gods- Indra/Agni/Mitra/Varuna are practically forgotten now.
And as far as Buddhists are concerned, we have made Buddha an avatar of Vishnu. While u guys are busy destroying his statues.
Regards
Hinduism is today much more of a religion of the "Dravidians" and Adivasis than of "Aryans". The chief Gods we wroship today are all non-Aryan.
Shiva/Parvati- Dravidian God of the Indus Valley
Rama- Probably a native chieftain raised to divinity
Krishna- Imported by Semitic tribesmen.
By contrast the Aryan Gods- Indra/Agni/Mitra/Varuna are practically forgotten now.
And as far as Buddhists are concerned, we have made Buddha an avatar of Vishnu. While u guys are busy destroying his statues.
Regards
#196 Posted by borivili_express on October 8, 2007 8:08:15 pm
When you apologise for the actions of your ancestors against budhists, dravidians, untouchables and tribals we will apologise for any real (against fantasy)actions of our ancestors, since your actions came first you apologise first.
#195 Posted by laddu on October 8, 2007 7:48:50 pm
Finally- you all have not asserted that it is wrong to kill idolators and kafirs!!!
Can you assert the principles I asserted in 186 & 185?
You cannot because your prophet was a murderer, rapist and a bandit and you all think that is what SUNNAT is all about!!!
Your 'spirituality' in sufi/mullah Islam is all sham!!
Can you assert the principles I asserted in 186 & 185?
You cannot because your prophet was a murderer, rapist and a bandit and you all think that is what SUNNAT is all about!!!
Your 'spirituality' in sufi/mullah Islam is all sham!!
#194 Posted by laddu on October 8, 2007 7:44:52 pm
Re: # 193
It is important for all muslims to get this absolutely wrong notion about their "masoom" Prophet and accept his short comings. He is NOT a role model for modern muslims!!! Get this falsity out of your heads and STOP professing LOVE for that fallbile man who killed , raped and looted- this blind adminration is what is turning Islam into a blood thirsty mafaiso cult!!!
It is important for all muslims to get this absolutely wrong notion about their "masoom" Prophet and accept his short comings. He is NOT a role model for modern muslims!!! Get this falsity out of your heads and STOP professing LOVE for that fallbile man who killed , raped and looted- this blind adminration is what is turning Islam into a blood thirsty mafaiso cult!!!
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