Army and the President

Nope, there is no hope for the normalization in
the near future, and for long term future also.

Why should we give people like you the MFN status (we can but it won't stand for Most favored nation... ) ? You need to get off your high horse first and accept that India and Indians are not always right.

Till then you can take your trade and shove it up where the sun don't shine... very respectfully ofcourse.

I think Indians are willing to freeze and consider
settled all the territorial issues.
Are Pakistanis ready to do that? Are they ready to
no more harping on unfinished business of partition,
granting trade concession like MFN status and not
gating trade/barter issues unresolved disputes?

Once they come down fromt the high horse, more so
the Pakistani leadership, things will normalize.
Till the thugs like Musharraf and likeminded occupy
high offices in Pakistan, things will not normalize.

tahmed,

Please refer to HP's post.

Neither Pakistan nor India nor Bangladesh have ceased to be diverse because of partition- though Bangladesh with its Bengali Muslim population is perhaps the most homogenous of the three over all.

Pakistan's census woefully under-represents the religious minorities but a fairer estimate would Pakistani religious minorities at approximately 12-15%. And that is religious minorities... we also have some 9-12 languages spoken in Pakistan, more than half a dozen constitutionally defined distinct cultures and almost every religion of the world represented in Pakistan.

But Indians have a funny habit of equating India with "Diversity". The only thing that has happened that you have three centers instead of one... and you have dominant ethos in form of a majority. A clear Majority is very necessary even for diversity to suitably exist.

bjkumar #29 While there is truth to what you say (i.e. formation of Pakistan reduced diversity) it is only part of the complete picture. e.g. the complete picture includes the fact that national boundries are no barrier to the flow of social, political, cultural, economic ideas and influences.

So, one can forever speculate on the "road not taken", but for that it is useful to keep in mind the following verse from omar khayyam:

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it

What is important is the page we are writing on today - and undoubtedly sometime in the future Indians and Pakistanis will look back and will not be able to "wash out a word of it". Thus is the fate of people who are focussed on page 1 even as history is being written on today's page. This is my profound thought for this morning, :-)

bjkumar #29 While there is truth to what you say (i.e. formation of Pakistan reduced diversity) it is only part of the complete picture. e.g. the complete picture includes the fact that national boundries are no barrier to the flow of social, political, cultural, economic ideas and influences.

So, one can forever speculate on the "road not taken", but for that it is useful to keep in mind the following verse from omar khayyam:

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it

What is important is the page we are writing on today - and undoubtedly sometime in the future Indians and Pakistanis will look back and will not be able to "wash out a word of it". Thus is the fate of people who are focussed on page 1 even as history is being written on today's page. This is my profound thought for this morning, :-)

I meant the Masadi type.

Today even Professor Ghafoor Ahmed of Jamaat-e-Islami is a big fan of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.

Bhutto the rabble rouser seems to have found a constituency amongst the self styled anti-imperialist Islamists suddenly.

Manto mian,

But Masadi never opposed ZAB. So???

Regards

Ofcourse Dawn will tell the truth. Dawn was founded by Mahomed Ali Jinnah. It will tell the truth... despite all discrimination against it... including Bhutto government's curbs on it ... again for telling the truth.


Majumdar,

Copy that. I mean Masadi. ZAB referred to such losers many time in his speeches.

YLH 42,

What I quoted about stamp exhibition is from dawn, unfortunately by a pakistani who prefers to tell teh truth about pak society, about distortion of history in pakistan. See dawn, opinion column.

Manto mian,

(I don't understand this new penchant by some third rate fools to pit ZAB against Jinnah.)

Are you referring to Masadi sahib?

(ZAB, a feudal with a lot of faults, was nonetheless a passionate admirer of Mahomed Ali Jinnah)

Which only goes to show that not all admirers of MAJ (pbuh) are "good guys". Of course, I do not club you or dawa behen or Zeenaji in that list.

(Ironic that those who opposed Jinnah and later opposed Bhutto are now trying to champion him in some way.)

Again, who are you referring to?

I don't understand this new penchant by some third rate fools to pit ZAB against Jinnah.

ZAB, a feudal with a lot of faults, was nonetheless a passionate admirer of Mahomed Ali Jinnah and had worked as a student in the Pakistan Movement. Ironic that those who opposed Jinnah and later opposed Bhutto are now trying to champion him in some way.

Jayp,

You are so pathetic. Bhutto would have had freaks like you for breakfast.

YLH, news for you.

As you persevere to prove that the taliban are followers of Gandhi, here is an official event to prove the penchant for the pakistanis to distort history,

from dawn of today. Bhutto never existed



a national postage stamp exhibition was held in Quetta. It was officially given out that stamps bearing the image of ZAB will not be put on display. What do you say to that? Like the school history books, the exhibition tried to show that there had been no such person as Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in our times. Did you ever hear anything more childish, more narrow-minded and more stupid?

One would have thought that the national stamps exhibition was organised by grown-up, sensible and educated persons having something to do with public life in Pakistan. Maybe they were senior bureaucrats from the Pakistan Postal Service. But the decision proved that they were grown-up only in years, educated only in time-serving hypocrisy and sensible only to the political wind blowing from Islamabad.

I recall the kargill war, the fisrt indian patrol ambushed by the pak troops were killed and mutilated, Captain Kalia was one among them.

Sad to see that teh same is happening to the pak army.

from dawn of today



But what really incensed the military was the mutilation of bodies, some of which were decapitated and burnt, a security official said.

“This is not something new. No culture allows mutilation of bodies. Only terrorists can do such a thing,” the spokesman said.

“Locals should ask those who fire on security forces, carry out ambushes and roadside bombings and then hide amongst them,” Gen Arshad said.

“If militants fire on us from rooftops and compounds, they become legitimate targets.” The spokesman said that security forces were still trying to establish contact with the remaining 10 to 12 soldiers unaccounted for, but he did not know whether they were dead or alive.

Sattar Gul, a villager, told Dawn by phone that Tuesday’s attack had caused massive destruction and 70 people lost their lives while almost 200 had been wounded.

post 29,

Alternate pakistan theory

The reason cannot be something as simple as lack of diversity. West and east pakistan were the most diverse one can imagine, which much against the diversity theory caused the break up.

The tribals and the sindhis are the most far apart one can have any where, and now the NWFP is another country, right at the moment bombed by the punjabi military.

According to the very own paki obcession about fair colour, the mohajirs are as far apart as the kahmiris.

Pakistan has enough diversity, what is lacking is a unifying idea, that could sustain pakistan after its creation.

TNT is based on the notion that mulims cannot live with people of other religion, and once pakistan was formed and ethnic cleansing carried out, there was no other unifying idea. The Zias survived by identifying teh ahmadias as the other. Now they are finished.

Shias, one may recall the killing of shia doctors in karachi a few years ago, and they are finished.

Now it is almost, pakistan is finished. Only thing holding the country together is the fear complex of attack by india, and that is why pak army is the only unifying force.