Army and the President

Zeemax sahib,

(coal is the MOST expensive to extract and use being very low quality, and the only ones are Chinese to build these plants )

I dont know about the cost of extraction but in terms of quality Indian coal is exceptionally poor ( 45% + ash content) and BHEL boilers run extremely beautifully with this kind of coal (availability factor of close to 90% for 500 MW sets)

Tahmed sahib,

(Musharraf will be firmly in charge...till a cataclysmic event removes him)

I dont think Zee sahib is being dramatic here. History is with him, Paki dictators remain firmly in charge unless a war happens or an assassin bumps him off.

Regards

majumdar #131 you write it would either never allow an Islamist takeover

i see that you are deviating from your own advice (as quoted by me in #130) a bit. Islamists will come to power only if the military allows them - they have no chance in elections. and the military isnt about to let a bunch of CD-Burner jokes telling it what to do.

Re: # 122
HP for a measured man, you seem to have hit a rather rich vein of pessimism in this post.


Its the question of who will bell the cat?

I donot think the population of pakistan led by the elite has the will to do so - since this particular cat has been the goose which laid the golden eggs (pardon the mixingof metaphors here) so far. Actually, what the population and elite thought was a goose is actually a rabid man-eater....

IMHO, pakistan needs a complete and total sea-change of elite - a managed change will not help nor will it help. The the only ones who can do it with little pain for the population is the Army - hence you see the elite squeeling like little pups. It is a bad sign that the likes of BB and Shareef-e-badmash and other riff-raff are making a comeback.

Tough call for pakistan, but nevertheless it has to make this call.

Zeemax sahib,

I agree a Sind separation from an "Islamist Pakistan" will be a very messy affair. Having said that though I have to say that an Islamist Pakistan is an unlikely event to begin with.

First, of all the havayoons are not strong enough to defeat the Pak Army/Pak state which for all its weakness is still a formidable force. A few ambushes and a few suicide bomb attacks notwithstanding, they are unlikely to be able to overwhelm the GoP.

Second, It is quite unlikely that the USA will allow an Islamist govt to form in Pakistan. For a simple reason- Pakistan has nukes. If it didn't have nukes, US wud have looked the other way. But having nukes, it is quite unlikely that US would look the other way, it would either never allow an Islamist takeover or even if it does it will ensure the removal of WMDS and secession of Sind and Baluchistan (to provide access to Iran) before allowing an Islamist takeover of remainder of Pakistan.

Regards

I think urstruly's drama queen performances on chowk have inspired others on chowk:

hamidm: this beast must be exterminated in its cave
pardesi: I am afraid we will be fighting these wars in western cities before full power is used to save the evolved civilizations.
HP: If Jihadi take over Pakistan, I would be the first one asking for independent Sindh and would seek assistance from any one who is willing.
zeemax: Musharraf will be firmly in charge...till a cataclysmic event removes him

What majumdar writes to HP applies to all of the above: There is no need to be so dramatic or pessimistic.

Hamidm: these tribals have been picking off the odd convoy, kidnapping the odd soldier, from armies since the days of Alexander, the Brits, and in the 1950's, 1960's. The only thing that has changed is that a handful of arab and central asian thugs have spilled over from afghanistan are taking advantage of their hospitality - and so have directed world attention to the tribals. And musharraf is now doing some larger scale fighting to show just how necessary he is to the world - and thus try to hang on to power (granted this part is conjecture, since no one can read a man's intentions - but it certainly would fit in with his past actions).

zeemax,

At last teh truth is out. As you said, teh troops did not surrender because they refused to fight. They were surrounded and overwhelmed by teh tribals, classic bangladesh situation, and the indians are waiting for the niazi to stand up.

Again the captured troops beleive that they have been abandoned becasue no relative of a general or politician is among the captured, this is according to an officer among teh captured.

So much for the pak army.

Ferozk 111,

At last there is one open supporter for my views. Islam will have to be contained and putting fences around is the first step, and will have to be followed by economic containment. Already trade is getting restricted, pakistan in the textile sector has been reduced to exporting of raw materials as the manufacture textile products in pakistan will require technology transfer and uncreased interaction with the consuming societies. I know of many who do not want to travel to pakistan for business matters as pakistan visa on passport is a lot of hazzle.

There will be aslow steady decline in islamic societies like pakistan and eventually jihadis will take over, as they will attribute the decline to the western expolitation.

The next most likely even will be defanging of pakistan, korean option, the proven libiyan option or the last the iraqi option.

#126 Posted by majumdar,

Majumdar, HP is not talking about a negotiated secession from an Islamist Pakistan. He is talking about a 'hostile' seperation even with Indian help. In that event, do you think he will have any lower riparian rights?

As for electricity, he can forget about Iranian Gas because that will pass through Baluchistan coastal control which Punjab would have annexed far before HP lays eyes on it. As for coal, yes he can use the Thar Coal for power plants if he can find financiers to build some since it this coal is the MOST expensive to extract and use being very low quality, and the only ones are Chinese to build these plants who will only side with Punjab (i.e. which will then be the Pakistan) with whom its interest will continue to lie!

Zeemax sahib,

(HP, you do that and you will have to irrigate your irrigable lands (whatever remain) with bottled water from bharat ... and get electricity from batteries imported from I dunno where ... LOL!)

Dunno about the water but can explain where they will get the power from. The Iran-Sind-India pipeline, Sindhis will collect the transit fee and that should pay for the gas they will need for their power plant. Sind has a lot of coal too in the Thar Parkar region I understand.

About the water I am not too sure but as a lower riparian they will certainly continue to have some rights on the Indus Valley waters just as Pakistan continued to have the same after Partition.

Regards

HP Sain has gone completely insane agreeing with people like ferozk who do not have a clue about what this conflict is all about ... wanting to separate Sind ... contain Islamists in NWFP ... Haha ... LoL.

HP, you do that and you will have to irrigate your irrigable lands (whatever remain) with bottled water from bharat ... and get electricity from batteries imported from I dunno where ... LOL!

Forgot the 'Lower Riparian'? And the province which can't even keep its main city Karachi alight without begging for half of its daily requirement from WAPDA which in turn gets it from Tarbela which is in NWFP? LoL ... Haha.

But I guess you forgot all of the above in your 'peenak'. Actually, the Islamists have you and your friends by your balls ... and you know it. :)

Bhai, this conflict is NOT about Islamic ideology. It is about foreign occupation of Afghanistan which is only another country in you liberals' puny dumb minds but the SAME country for the FATA tribals (they don't give a rat's ass about Durand Line). They're fighting for its liberation and you apostate Pakistanis are killing them (and their schoolgirls, and their old and young) for their doing that. This is totally unacceptable for them. Their terms of staying loyal to Pakistan since the very outset mandate NO Pakistan army inside their territory. If you send it there, they will kill your army. Period.

Secondly, the larger conflict in the rest of the Islamic world (Terrorists? Fundamentalists?) is also not about Islamic ideology. It is all about resisting the projection of US military power in Muslim regions to maintain the US single political & economic system, which is considered by large segments of their populations as exploitative.

Islam is an alternative politico-economic system to the US type Capitalism, PLUS a huge motivating force in the rationale for violent Jihad. That's why the resistance has taken an Islamic form. However, religion was never either the initiator nor the raison' detre for it to begin with.

This fire will not be contained, but will soon spread to your city main squares and shopping malls. Where will you hide then? The only people to blame will be your types who ddidn't listen in arrogance while there was still time.

But I have discovered since long that it is impossible to explain things to libero-fascists. It is just much easier to behead them! :)

#114 Posted by Urstruly Re: # 110 zeemax

I can only sympathize with your nievette.

Urstruly, thanks for your sympathy. However, the 'hope' in those 5 points was just to the extent of getting a favorable verdict from SC for tahmed32 who feels strongly about the 'independence of the judiciary', and not for me :) I know what's going to happen in either event - verdict or no verdict. Musharraf will be firmly in charge without uniform if there's a favourable verdict, and with uniform if it comes against him. Same same ... i.e. till a cataclysmic event removes him.

HP sain,

There is no need to be so dramatic or pessimistic.

(If Jihadi take over Pakistan, I would be the first one asking for independent Sindh and would seek assistance from any one who is willing. At that point, I would ask the Indian army and if needed, the US army in to the country.)

IF, IF, that is the operative word. It is not going to happen period. Yes, the havayoons are going to create a fair deal of chaos in the medium term, ocasionally waylaying and kidnapping soldiers in W'stan. And once the Army gets its act together and they will find soldiers rather difficult targets, they will resort to random acts of violence against unarmed civilians- suicide bombing et al. But if their aim and belief is that they will takeover Pakistan they are in for a nasty surprise much like jihadis in Kashmir. They will find the state of Pakistan a much tougher target than they had reckoned.

Yes there will be some violence on both sides and lot of innocent casualties, but they are not getting anywhere.

Regards

Asadi actually I agree with what Feroz wrote in that article. I too believe that all the jihadi and fanatics supporting Jihadis should be quarantined until they are completely detoxed!

What those Jihadis have to do with Muslims at large? They are criminals and if any country supports them or for some reason they appear to take control of one or more countries, I am all for confronting them with whatever means.

If Jihadi take over Pakistan, I would be the first one asking for independent Sindh and would seek assistance from any one who is willing. At that point, I would ask the Indian army and if needed, the US army in to the country.

These guys are criminals. Now you can say the US is criminal too but I guess sometimes things come down to selecting the lesser evil.

We sure can talk about the WOT being fake but Jihadis are real. They maybe playing someone else's game but they play these games in the most dirtiest way possible.

#120 hamid

Real enemies are liberals/Democrats who would not allow you to contain the "beast". I am afraid we will be fighting these wars in western cities before full power is used to save the evolved civilizations.

Re: # 115

masadi mian,

i fully agree with ferozk's statement that "United States will have to create a cordon of containment around the Muslim nations, along the “arc of instability”, from Morocco in the east to Pakistan in the west and not allow Islamic militancy to break this cordon of containment. " ................. because if we don't, who will ? ...... this beast must be exterminated in its cave before it gets on to the streets of the civilized world to threaten our way of life ....... it is better to kill them in mirali and miran shah than fight them in islamabad and lahore .........

......... my only quibble with george bush is that he is not being tough enough ........

HAHA..growing vegetables...figures...what else are these guys going to do...can't get back kashmir...growing vegetables is better than surrendering to the tribals and getting your throat cut in the process..

47 Army officers strike it rich
by selling off plush farmhouses

By Rauf Klasra

ISLAMABAD: As many as 47 officers of the Pakistan army who were allotted big farmhouses in the suburbs of Islamabad by the Capital Development Authority (CDA) at throwaway price for growing “vegetables, orchards and poultry” have quietly sold off their 310 acres of prime farmland at exorbitantly high price. The market prices are in the range of Rs100-200 million per acre depending upon on the location of the farm.

The CDA has submitted the names of these army officers to the Supreme Court of Pakistan along with 499 top guns who own 2500 acres of prime farmland worth Rs75billion.

General Pervez Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz too are among those powerful people who now own these plush farmhouses.

At the time of allotment of these farmhouses, these army officers were shown as the interested parties and individuals keen to grow vegetables, orchards and poultry products, in line with the CDA’s policy, for supply to the residents of the twin cities of Rawalpindi and Islamabad. These farms were allotted to these military officers in the farming schemes in Chak Shahzad, Orchard Scheme Murree Road, etc. But, after getting them allotted at highly subsidized rate, these officers later sold these farms at market rates to earn massive profits.

Earlier, the Supreme Court had directed the CDA authorities to submit a report containing the names of all those who were given land at throwaway prices for growing vegetables. The CDA has now submitted the list of these 499 big and influential people who have converted these big farms into residential palaces. The Authority too is blamed for changing the byelaws to accommodate the high and mighty of Islamabad to give legal cover to the otherwise massive irregularities committed in the name of growing vegetables and orchards.