Army and the President

#51 Posted by MantoLives on October 10, 2007 6:21:26 am


Pakistan's census woefully under-represents the religious minorities but a fairer estimate would Pakistani religious minorities at approximately 12-15%.


yup...fairer as in the PIOMPA census...

first it was the bomb you to the stone age call..then the call the call from rice to get mushy to back off on the martial law plan..now another call is forcing mushy in bed with BB..

seriously pakis..if you want democracy, you don't need to rewrite the constitution or recall j-man's august 11th speech..just disconnect your phones...your leaders seem to grease up and bend over at calls from even the under-secretary of state...

I told you that this isn't a democratic revolution or anything..it's just the master changing the leash on his dog..


US involved in Pak politics to the hilt

By Ansar Abbasi

ISLAMABAD: The American interference in Pakistani politics is at an all time high, with Washington contacting different authorities in Islamabad, ignoring recognised diplomatic channels and bypassing the prime minister and his government to ensure smooth sailing for Benazir Bhutto.

A reliable source in the Presidency told this correspondent that during some recent discussions amongst senior authorities, it was revealed that influential American government leaders were directly contacting different Pakistani leaders and officials, ignoring the Foreign Office and even the prime minister, who is the chief executive of the country.

Although, this mounting American interference was not the issue being discussed in such high-level interactions, the source privy to such deliberations found it extremely upsetting. He revealed that the extent of American interference could be judged from the worrying fact that Washington had lately written a letter directly to a Pakistani spymaster to discuss the progress on Benazir-Musharraf dialogue issue.

How could the Americans do that? There is no explanation to this. Is it proper for intelligence agencies’ chiefs to be welcoming such direct correspondence from Washington? The source also disclosed that one of the two top aides of the president – Lt General (Retd) Hamid Javaid and Tariq Aziz – these days maintains a direct one-to-one contact with the American authorities. Mostly, it is said, the presidential aide talks to Richard Boucher, who is monitoring the events unfolding in Pakistan vis-à-vis Benazir Bhutto’s return and her participation in active politics at home.

The aide was even quoted as telling recently that the contact was now so frequent that he and Boucher now exchanged views with each other and passed on information through mobile messages (short messaging service- SMS).

During his last visit to Pakistan, Boucher had also visited a presidential aide but nothing was officially said about this meeting. When The News contacted concerned government quarters to have their reaction about the American interference they said there was no truth in the substance of such reports. However, they added, for follow-up action, concerned departments of each government interact as required.

A report published in a local English daily revealed that Benazir during her recent visit to Washington spoke with Musharraf from the office of Congressman Tom Lantos, the powerful chairman of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs.

The report also disclosed that the US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned both Musharraf and Benazir on Thursday last to ensure that they had reached the agreement. The next day, Musharraf promulgated the controversial National Reconciliation Ordinance (NRO).

“The two telephone calls show the extent of Washington’s involvement in Pakistani politics and contradict the State Department’s repeated assurance that while the US backs the formation of a moderate political centre in Pakistan, it does not favour any particular candidate or party,” the report said.

Interestingly, the government – the prime minister and his cabinet – is generally ignored and bypassed in all such interactions between Washington and the Presidency or the spymasters. Most leaders of the ruling coalition parties are also allergic to the kind of concessions being offered to Benazir by the president but they could not dare cross their limits.

Till a few months back, the Presidency was not really pushed to go for such a deal with Benazir but it was the US pressure that compelled it to swallow the bitter pill and hug the alleged plunderer of the national wealth.

While the NRO would successfully take care of the corruption cases that Benazir is facing within Pakistan, Washington has indicated, as already reported, that it would take care of her cases in Madrid, London and Geneva. Will it be possible or not? There is no clear answer to this but the Pakistani authorities could not do much beyond disassociating themselves from these cases or withdrawing the documents submitted to the courts of these three European capitals.

In the Madrid case, the NAB has already clarified that the case regarding culpability of Benazir and her conduits (Rehman Malik and Hassan Ali Jafferi) in the Oil for Food Programme is pending before a Spanish Examining Magistrate in the province of Valencia in Spain on charges of money laundering.

According to the NAB, this case was started in 2004 by the Spanish authorities on basic information and evidence gathered by their Financial Intelligence Unit called SEPBLAC. The Government of Pakistan was also informed about this persecution and was asked for any help in the Spanish prosecution. Later in 2006, the NAB was informed by the United Nation’s Independent Inquiry Committee (UN IIC) about the involvement of Benazir Bhutto’s company Petroline FZC in the infamous Iraqi Oil for Food Programme.

The UN IIC also provided the NAB with certain documentary evidence. To help the Spanish prosecution in Valencia and also adhering to their earlier request of 2004, the NAB became civil party to the proceedings and provided the examining magistrate with the UN IIC evidence and also the details of other cases of the accused in various jurisdictions including Pakistan.

On the last date of hearing in May 2007, the NAB informed the Valencia court that the bureau had done its job by providing the UN IIC evidence and by rendering all other relevant evidence. “Since the case is primarily a Spanish prosecution, therefore, the NAB could be allowed to quit as civil party as the Government of Pakistan exchequer is not going to benefit from the outcome of the case, and further the NAB shall be available for any help for the Spanish prosecution in future, which could be attained on a simple request of International Mutual Legal Assistance,” the NAB said in one of its recent press releases. It added that the prosecution in Valencia was to continue.

...quite nicely argued.....

.....though the reference to ata-turk actually justifies msuharraf's actions, as many individuals want him to be an ata-turk....i think we can see the limitations of ata-turk forcing a foreign idea on turkey, in the current turkish society, which is now again and again electing a religious party.....in addition, the brainwashed turkish military (a few members of which i have met in person, and have found to be quite odd), is trying hard to implement ata-turk's ideas through force, in a country that doesn't want them....

....perhaps musharraf is doing the same.......i.e. he has convinced himself he is the pakistani ata-turk, and needs to use the same forceful tactics as ata-turk.......

.......i think this is what happens when people become too obsessed with secularism and/or religion.....they have no issues with forcing their ideas on others.......

.....i think the supreme court of pakistan should rule against musharraf on the 17th....primarily because it is against the law......that will bring everything to a boiling point........that will challenge musharraf to impose martial law.....i really don't think the army has it in them, to impose martial law.......if the army is challenged, from a position of authority, it will back off.......at least, that has been my experience.......

the army has its hands full in waziristan.....i don't think it has the stamina and motivation to carry out emergencies and martial laws in pakistan.......it is time to separate out the blacks and whites of pakistani politics and to see where everyone stands........a situation in which pml(q), ppp, jui(f) - all from the three opposing ideological camps in pakistan uniting under the army, just to get power is a very unhealthy political situation........

it would be better to let everything boil over.......pakistan needs a clear fight amongst all these groups, rather than shoving everything under the carpet.......this fight is going to happen at some time.....might as well happen now.......

Re: # 79 It is only technical only in words but in not in spirit. Like pakistani cement is not allowed fully , pakistani movies are not encouraged in Indian theatre owner, more nontechnical barriers. India by not signing Iran gas system denying pakistan revienues, that is not good. There is trade imbalance and govt of India not try to reduce but increase. While pakistan govt even sugar found infit due high sulpher content is imported in friendly trade fashion. Also asking trade route to afghanistan is not write when Indians occupy pakistani areas like Junagarh state, Nizamshah state and hyderbad deccan etc. If india does not want free trade then we do not need feeding indian govt with the hard earned dollars by people of Pakistan. Soon USA will follow china with FREE trade agreement. What india can give can always be imported from Japan, usa, China and UK, like advanced countries.Even iron ore from india is not good quality for Pakistan steel mills it is brought as just due to transportation charges. With KSE index travelling like rocket why need India. I wish good to india as rhis free trades weaken small economies. Big economies of scale has advantage due to less cost, like small and mediun Industies and cottage industries go closed and incresed poverty and they gobble up even large industries. Time has come to think carefully take over from companies from even our friends like usa, china, s.arabia as they just look at bottom line and it means more harder for pakistanies. It is best to keep less trade with outsiders and create welfare state and give jobs to locals than feed greedy foreigners. Also loans are rope to hang yourself. Better need is now India gfor next 30 to 40 years in self help and then by 2050 go for free trade. Just madani economy to save country not serve elites at homes.

Re: # 77 I second your thoughts Mr. Masadi. Please contributr despite of wrong people and their bad saying and name callings. Have good day.

Ahmed madani sahib,

Our timings being such that almost the first post I see on chowk every morning is yours. And they never fail to bring a smile on my face with their earthy wisdom.

Ahmedmadani sahib for Prez!!!

Regards

#76 Posted by masadi
“HP writes "An excellent article. "
HP mian, very disappointing. Don't encourage this perv who is willing, as is clear from this article, of abandoning moral and rational stances because of hero worship.”

Asadi, I really take exception to this. This article clearly picks a legal debate and supports legal arguments with different scenarios and one of them was refuting that Mush is the only elected president with uniform. At that point bringing Ataturk was appropriate and imho, the reference does not show any bias or favoritism to either Mush or Ataturk.

Yassar is on record here opposing the military rule in Pakistan. Supporting or opposing mush is really irrelevant as the issue in Pakistan as you very well know, is the army institution and not some individuals.

I certainly and I believe Yassar too, agree with you that the US interference in Pakistan affairs should be resisted. It is not good for Pakistan and it is not good for the area. We may show our displeasure at the US and you may expose the US elite at every step of the way but unless you find a practical way to deal with the US intervention in Pakistan, all the sloganeering about US elite or the Pakistan elite is hollow and is just empty rhetoric.

I have known many intellectuals, both here and in Pakistan, who respond to issues brusquely and their approach often is dogmatic. Imo, this is a mullah approach and is not fruitful in helping a cause or even promoting a dialog.

When you talk of the US elite and its influence in Pakistan or elsewhere, you also need to find and explore ways to reduce its influence. No Prophet or Jesus will come to this earth to fight the Satan.

Pakistan intellectuals and democracy supporters and that includes both Yassar and Ferozk, are not powerful enough to remove the Army or its sponsors instantly. They have to work for it. The knowledge about the US and the army is good but that knowledge has to be channeled properly to find ways to fight with US or the Pakistan Elite. Merely repeating that they are bad would not change a thing on the ground.

The way is to find the weaknesses in elite’s approach and exploit them to the best of ones ability. In Pakistan, no one will take up arms against the army for establishing democracy but if people continue to chip away at their support system, eventually things would change. The years of efforts in Pakistan have begun to bear fruits. We clearly see a conflict between the ruling groups in Pakistan and that conflict should be exploited and used for maintaining pressure on the ruling groups.

The US elite or the Pak army don’t have a god given gift to be right on every issue. They make mistakes and often those mistakes lead to opening doors for the right people to get in the door. It would not be beneficial if people just keep on yelling, US elite, US elite or dirty Generals, from the top of their lungs from the outside when they have an opportunity to get in the door and cause some serious damage to the entrenched enemy.

The conflict in Pakistan between the judiciary and the army may be short-lived as they both need each other and soon they will kiss and make up. While they are at each other’s throat, it is not a bad idea to continue to pressure them in an attempt to perpetuate this conflict. In that regard, this article does create a dilemma and a pressure situation for the Judges. The article has been published in a newspaper that is widely read in the Pakistan elite and Judges can not miss this article. Other articles and opinions that are being published in Pakistani media are helping too.

This is all part of the pressure that Pakistanis should continue to build and that is the reason it is an excellent article.

You can take a lugubrious approach or you can help find the solutions. Adolescent hypothesis slippery slopes to intellectual bankruptcy.

I would like to discuss MAJ and ZAB with you too but really I think you understand those issue a whole lot better but are not willing to check your first instinct.

Re: # 75 Mr. Masadi you have given lot to this forum. You were ist exposed the elite control of Pakistani elites to supress democry. You clearly shown many times western elites do not think democracy is fit for our country. It is like saying to friend, you are equal and wish all equality but I can not invite to fast of democracy. It is just word to be used and mean nothing, it just means pakistani elites are just less than pawns on chase board. Why we have forign ministry when USA foreign minister and her subordinates decides little deatils of even so called deals. Forgiving all corrouption at one shot as only Mrs Rice said so. Our now new army chief was tested and approved by Mrs. Ricebai when she interview this commander. Masad Sahib what is going this worse than slavery, these brown elites are worst than old white Rulers at least they had shame. Some times this Azadi Zuti hay I feel. Our army is useing halicopter Gunships and fighter jets brought to fight ememies on soth and eastern front. Its just like Rajas and nawabs of India use to carry out oppression on indian people, and all these rajas etc were subservant to british policy. Are we conqured nation by west where they just look and to make them happy we go on killing people, it is repeating of East Pakistan when army attacked just to please local elites.I think this is happening as people power will not allow this but elites have enslaved nation. Now you may not like be as you like ZAB but think mrs BB is worst type of corroupt elite and going to thrust drive with american engine under the security car. I think elites have defeated people and educated people as said many time more you learn more you become foolish. THis days and nights coming are nights of people enenies and elites and all other nonelites will have miserable life for next 10 years. I believe in natural power and that will start helping nonelies after 10 years. Next 10 years worst than Ayub+Y. Khan+Zia MO+ P . Musharraf dictetorship and these will many people by air attacks and air gunship but after 10 years peoples power will rise of destruction and fire like legendoray bird of Phonix. It is dark and enemies nights and days but sun will break through by 2017 and then freedon and happiness. Good afternoon all. bye

MASADI is doing extensive work on breaking mental fedual mentality of slave and master. The basis of pakistan is fedual social system and apeing western and Indian movies and culture and watching movies and sinful movies from west and allowing increase in sex conten in society by men to oppress women and state is only appratus to keep status quo and keep people deprived so they have no trime to seek freedom. At that level mr. Masadi is working with hammer and demolishing idol and individul worship and fedual foundation of whole nation. It is hard and lonely work and I appreciate it and he does where it counts on ground. At this time we need mental revolution as otherwise we will change only one dictetor for other. Karl marx wrote very good about french revolution. He basically said workers need knowledge. When people in france rose and rebelled and workers came to "reserve bak" they did not know what is to be done and everthing lost quickly as he said. Same what is required is freeing people from MENTAL slavery as mental slave can not be free. Masadi has good points and he is trying to show people first to free their mind from feudal slavery and then mindly will rise which is not burdened by feudal ways and unnecessary legal burdens of and legal staic ethos and jutifying all bad stuff under doctorine of not stiring up ( which theory of cowards and status quo elites)
Good afternoon.

HP writes "Asadi, I really take exception to this. This article clearly picks a legal debate and supports legal arguments with different scenarios and one of them was refuting that Mush is the only elected president with uniform. At that point bringing Ataturk was appropriate and imho, the reference does not show any bias or favoritism to either Mush or Ataturk"

HP mian, you have been misled by this person, I don't know why you are supporting his kind, he is a hero-worshipper, a high priest, and he will support Jinnah and his kind regardless of the country going to hell. I would advise you to read the last paragraph of his article again, when he says "Musharraf is no AtaTurk and the Pakistani Army not a national army like the Turkish one was", he is presenting a veiled support of the military interfering in the affairs of the state. If Mush was like AtaTurk and if the Pak Army was like the Turkish national army then it was OK for this hypocrite if a running general ran for office. That is the conclusion of his article which tells us that regardless of his claims for democracy he will support dictatorship if the person of the dictator is in the image of Jinnah or is the person in whose image Jinnah tried to mold himself i.e. AtaTurk.

Now, I take exception to your insinuation that I am merely using rhetoric and shouting against the US elite and the Pak Army. I am writing articles, well reasoned ones just like this hypocrite is writing articles and those articles do not only contain rhetoric, when you pinpoint a problem, half of the solution is already contained therein, and I have suggested many times like you are doing in this post that the unintended by-products, like the Lawyer's movement, are to be expected in the shenanigans of the US elite and their occupation force, and that these will lay the foundations of democracy in this country. Now all I can do, in the heart of things is provide some kind of intellectual support to enhance the consciousness of the people and I am trying to do that in my limited manner. I cannot take a stone and go the streets, that would prove to be of limited usefulness at this time and the harms and waste would be greater than any benefits....you need to look beyond the facade that this person Manto has set up. People worshippers like him are awaiting a messiah,an undemocratic messiah, people like me are trying to enhance the consciousness of the people.

The basics about Jinnah are well know and the basics of the people's movement started by the ZAB are well known too. The former was based on hypocritical religious exclusion that eventually harmed the Muslims of India, that latter was based on enhancing people consciousness regarding their basic rights as well as status as human beings. Manto supports the former, I support the latter....which side are you going to pick is the big question....

Madani sahib, thank you for your support. Allah will indeed bless the efforts of those that speak the truth and work for the betterment of humanity....

Masadi sahib,

(he is a hero-worshipper)

YLH hero worships someone who created a nation, you hero worship someone who destroyed it.

(and he will support Jinnah and his kind regardless of the country going to hell.)

If Pakistan was run by the likes of MAJ (pbuh) and YLH, it would never have gone to hell in the first place.

"Musharraf is no AtaTurk and the Pakistani Army not a national army like the Turkish one was"

I cant speak for Yasser mian but it seemed to me like that he was trying to say that military rule in Pakistan was EVEN LESS JUSTIFIED than in Turkey.

(that latter was based on enhancing people consciousness regarding their basic rights as well as status as human beings. )

How did ZA Bhoot enhance people's consciousness. By:

Idhar hum udhar tum types of argument.
Instigating Yahya to unleash a genocide in Bdesh and later rewarding its leading lights with key positions in his Cabinet and Party.
Fighting a thousand year war with neighbours.
Bombing and strafing B'stan and NWFP.
Declaring Ahmedies as non-Muslims.
Bashing up, jailing political opponents and even socialist stalwarts of his own party like Mr. Rahim.

Regards

Majumadar #91, leave these discussions to the "big boys", merely being a cheerleader of Manto does not serve his cause it just shows us bigger holes in his arguments. If Jinnah was still in charge... is a kind of an absurd argument that you are somehow presenting as "proof". When Jinnah was incharge, the Muslims of India went through their worst catastrophie. Regarding ZAB, when the people of this country started talking of economic issues and their rights as human beings that was when people consciousness was enhanced, not when religion was invoked to cause gain a country for the colonials and the feudals. Regarding Manto and AtaTurk, when an idiot calls himself a grey wolf after AtaTurk, as did the MFJ when he was playing "AtaTurk" with his daughter at home, you don't expect that person to present what the AtaTurk did in a negative light...The guy is a people worshipper who is following his own tiny ideology regardless of what benefits or harms people.

In #92 read "not when religion was invoked to cause gain a country for the colonials and the feudals" as

not when religion was invoked to gain a country for the benefit of colonials and the feudals

In addition to #92, HP mian regarding Feroz you need to read his ideas, I have quoted many in some of our going to and fro, he worships the US system of oppression based on his narrow understanding of the US and weak comprehension abilities. Asking for the US to imprison Muslims in an "arc of instability", what kind of "democracy" or freeing Pakistan from US control is that? What kind of nonsense is it when he says that the purpose spelled out in the preamble of the US constitution is that governments are created for the happiness of the people. Has he ever laid the blame on the US elite for what transpires in the Pakistan political arena, never, and he is busy blaming the people of Pakistan for the mess we are in, a people who are not only suffering back breaking poverty but who have limited to no avenues to seek their rights in the corridors of power. You should not support such an ignoramus, he is in now way an intellectual or a speaker of truth.

#91 by majumdar

How did ZA Bhoot enhance people's consciousness. By:

Majumdar bhai, everything that you accused ZAB of applies to Jinnah equally well if not better. For isn't the TNT another form of "udhar tum idhar hum"? As for instigating violence, did Jinnah not do the same when he called for DAD? And the subsequent Partition violence on both sides, were they any short of genocide?

In #94 read "he is in now way an intellectual or a speaker of truth.
as

he is in no way an intellectual or a speaker of truth.