Whither Pakistan? The Presidential 'Election' and Beyond

arabic, japanese?
I thought you guys were learning Chinese.
well..at least Romair suggested to do so few years ago.:)

naqshbandi #9 i will sincerely recommend you take off your ideological glasses and see history as it happened, not as you would have liked it to happen.

Thus, the decline of the Ottoman empire did not start with the Tanzimat Reforms. Those were in fact an attempt at moving away from precisely the prescription you provided - and it was a case of too little, too late. And it would be another hundred years before Ataturk would put Turkey back on track as a respectable nation.

This decline had started centuries ago, thus:

1. The decline started in the 15th century (when the europeans left Turks behind politically, economically, socially, technologically behind).

2. It reached the tipping point in the late 18th century when the Russians took their european possessions apart and imposed the humiliating Treaty of Kucuk Kaynarji, 1774, on the ottomans.

3. The ottomans tried to copy western military techniques as a way to recover, but kept their back firmly turned to other aspects of western civilization, and for good reason as far as the ottoman khalifas were concerned - the kings powers in the west were being eroded and parliaments being formed, and the ottomans did not wish to lose their absolute power).

3. The early 19th century proved that this strategy too was a failure - with greeks and serbs staging successful revolts, and the rest of europe treating turkey like a vegetable.

It was then that the Tanzimat Reforms were started - and being bitterly opposed by the maulvis, were not carried out. The rest is history.

So, like I said, stop living in a dream world and wake up. When you feel like living in a dream world, read the Arabian Nights, or go watch a belly dance or something.

Arjun,

The japanese language suggestion is actually productive and wise.

Pakistanis speaking japanese would shock the world, and let us crash into parties.

We could also communicate with each other without pesky indians eavesdropping.

The japanese would extend a hand of friendship, and we could flood their little racist island with a sea of brown pakistanis.

Good suggestion.

Naqsh, take goddamn notice will you?

This whole "let's be more arabic" is such dumb shyte.

Look at the Malaysians and Indonesians for inspiration.
with much respect,
thinking storm

#9 Posted by Naqshbandi on October 12, 2007 1:26:48 pm


i also think we should consider ourselves a part of the middle east and islamic world instead of south asian


yes..please do...this will help indians..we can get rid of this "terrorists of south asian origin" cr@p..


and make arabic a national language with equal status to urdu. this will ensure our future lies in the west and not eastwards.


why don't you make japanese your national language..it will ensure that you make great electronics and great cars.

Yaar Naqsh,

Don't be such a party pooper :(.


with much respect,
thinking storm

considering this (dinar)is a good idea, perhaps indians should do it before without waiting for pakistani consensus etc. to build.

if afterwards the indians wish to adopt the islamic dinar--why not?! an islamic pakistan will be much more peaceful than a non-islamic pakistan.

i like the dinar idea..do you think india should also do the same considering it has so many muslims?

well, for 600 years the ottoman empire was a dominant force in global affairs and it was only after they began aping the West in the Tanzeemat Reforms (?) and mixing islamic law with french law that things began to go downhill; however even at its weakest moment in 1924 it was STILL much more of a powerful entity than turkey itself is now. the dismantling of the caliphate was the single most greatest political tragedy for muslims since the sacking of baghdad by the mongols.

however, i am not naive enough to call for the return of the caliphate in pakistan-- i believe there is no caliphate now ere the Mahdi alayihasalam --but i think an iranian style revolution is possible but with shia twelver legal codes replaced by sunni hanafite law. the ottoman model of each community within its empire being allowed to govern according to their own personal laws such matters as come under personal law is worth copying as it is a much better model than multiculturalism.

i don't know much a bout economics but what is wrong with changing the rupee into the dinar? i also think we should consider ourselves a part of the middle east and islamic world instead of south asian and make arabic a national language with equal status to urdu. this will ensure our future lies in the west and not eastwards. i have heard that the founders of pakistan initially did plan to make arabic the national language but pressure from the mohajirs made them choose urdu. i am sure mantolives can elucidate that point. this would be a first step in the creation of a EU-model based islamic union of nation states within an islamic ethos of course with a common currency -dinar -and free trade and no borders.

Asif:

I doubt if the Washington Post and the New York Times are mouthpieces of the American government. These are mainstream news outlets that have regularly exposed government coverups and try and present all sides of a story. Here in America they are considered by many as left of center, liberal and somewhat elitist, but no one has accused them of towing the Bush party line. The Wall Street Journal, National Review, Fox News etc are the ones doing Bush's bidding.

Ejaz

So, it is my view that in the not too distant future Pakistan too will go through its own version of an Islamic revolution.


no such thing will happen. the canine tendencies are too strong in pakis for that to happen.

in short, you don't have the testicular fortitude..you(or whoever is leading you) will grease up and bend over at the first phone call from the land of the free.

of course, you could disconnect your phones...then you'd have a better shot..

and i forgot to applaud you for calling for the re-introduction of the "gold standard" - it is such an honor to share chowk with an eminent economist (among other specialties) like you.

#4 naqshbandi: "Hanafi fiqh--it was the official school of the Ottoman empire--...They could be really revolutionary and adopt the dinar and the gold standard as currency "

Brilliant!! In one stroke you would have:

1. Aped someone else (turks in this case).
2. Introduced kingship, complete with the "Bowstring" method of coronation (strangulation of the other royal princes with a bowstring being the de facto standard method whereby the ottoman princes eliminated competition when the king died);
3. Made the judiciary subordinate to the executive (qazis were appointed by kings, and supplemented firmans - i.e. executive ordinances - with judgements that would be consistent with the king's wishes).

as for "social, economic, education, health, justice" - it wasnt for nothing that the ottoman empire wasnt called the "sick man of europe" for the entire 19th century, and until the Turks themselves got rid of it.

But you carry on your Khilafat Movement. Dont let an iota of common sense penetrate your brain.

Because of the massive corpus of existent Hanafi fiqh--it was the official school of the Ottoman empire--there already exists in place a detailed body of literature from which a council of experts [ulama] can sit and derive rulings on how to govern today and hence deal with all aspects of society: legal, political, social, economic, education, health, justice etc.

They could be really revolutionary and adopt the dinar and the gold standard as currency thus, at a stroke, freeing themselves from the usury-laden loan-repayments which cripple third world countries.

If any muslim country tries to do any meaningful and productive project then there is always a internal/foreign interference that undermines the sacred objectives. Just watch this what happens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMj0g2DpR5A

I hope you learn something.

Nanga Pir

Asif you end the article with An Islamic regime with nuclear weapons? Don't bet against it in the next 5-10 years

Prophetic - now you are .....

let us see what the future holds....why try to foretell it