Can Religious Leaders Redeem the Future of the World?

good and bad are relative if we have different notions of humanity (as you conceded in an earlier post). When it is relative, it is the degree of over lap you have which results in the starting point of counting the grains of sand to figure out the dune.

If there is no such understanding we will be arguing over what is a grain of sand! Forget the dune - it doesnot exist as a sand dune till we agree on the sand thing.

My earlier post (#76) was against the binary 0/1 logic. This binary logic is more inscribing rather than circumscribing -

got to go and hit the sack - the good old water of life is over and need some more to think what you said through and make myself sound more erudite than I really am!

hamidm: I dont wish to speculate on anyone's intentions, and certainly Urstruly, GT, Dash_Dot and yourself are all gentlemen in the sense that they dont use the anonymity of the internet to start abusing anyone who questions or disagrees with them. And I wont speculate on GT's intentions for avoiding my simple question, even though I find the respon.

Having said that, it is obvious that this absurd policy of demonizing the US while setting up the worlds 1 billion plus muslims as victims has cost muslims dearly in many ways. While Urstruly may be comfortably making a living and getting the benefits of living in society that respects his rights, millions of muslims who would give anything to be in their place are denied visas in EU and the US. So, by encouraging Urstruly by making the absurd claim that he is "honest", GT (regardless of intentions) is certainly not doing muslims any favor.

GT: I am sorry that you chose to avoid my question. But I hope you will reflect on it before you start applauding those who claim to speak on behalf of "muslims" when in fact they have cost muslims plenty in real terms (one example given in my post #82).

And, btw, I never questioned urstruly's right to say one thing and do another, so your referring to this right was unnecessary. What I questioned was your referring to urstruly as being "honest" (and by implication, hamidm as being dishonest), when in fact simple logic would indicate that the opposite is true (as I tried to explain to you).

Dear tahmed,

I had said "Urstruly etc. can only accept peace under their own terms and they are honest about it (at least as far as chowk is concerned)". I really do not understand what is wrong or right about this statement.

You also say "...GT (regardless of intentions) is certainly not doing muslims any favor". Sir, frankly speaking I do not want to do a favor to anyone, especially to those who do not need a favor from me.

If I am being offensive, or if there is a misunderstanding, please do let me know why and I will try to correct or clarify my position if needed.

Warm regards.

Dear tahmed:

I also believe that "hamidm2 etc. can only accept peace on their own terms and they are honest about it (at least as far as chowk is concerned)." The problem is not with the honesty of hamidm2 and Urstruly, actually one should be thankful that both of them are honest. From their interacts we come to know that what is "good" for one is "bad" for the other. The 'problem' is that both of them are ready to "defend" what they think is "good". And oh! ... what is "defence" for one is "offence" for the other.

GT: Thanks for taking the time to explain (not that you owe me any explanations, of course) your views, since it does clarify what you meant.

On the question of urstruly's honesty, we obviously will have to agree to disagree. He is no doubt honest about "seeking peace at his own terms". But he is not honest when you look at what these terms are (i.e. rejection of the US or western way of life) and contrast them with his actions (i.e. leaving a muslim country not for another supposedly more pious muslim country, but for the green pastures of the US).

GT: and to add to #86, I should say cheers, my friend. No personal offense intended or taken, and appreciate your making the effort to make that clear. We dont have to agree on everything, nor will the earth stop spinning or galaxies start colliding as a result. ;-)

Re: # 85

GT,

.... look there is a fundamental difference between me and urstruly: i am willing to let him bang his head on the floor ten times a day, not drink if he doesn't want to, grow a beard, go to bed with four women and a sheep, return his interest payments to the bank and practice all the silliness of his religion as long as i can have a drink when i want to ......... that's all i want in addition to free markets, democracy and the playboy channel ......... i don't want to kill him or convert him or anything of the sort ........

....... on top of that, i am not willing to die for my cause either - i will move to china and join the communist party if i think that the forces of al-lah are going to overrun the land of the free ........ i am not that brave ..... shit! worse come to worse i will even convert back to islam ... unlike urstruly, i love life .... of course, if other people are willing to die for my cause i will write them a check like i do every april 15th ..........

I apologize for blaspheming US and if it has hurt anyone's feeling, but aren't you the two testicles who defend people's right to blaspheme anyone or anything all the time. What gives?

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Re: # 89

urstruly,

.... you can blaspheme the US as long as you don't collect welfare, ssi, medicaid, student loans or live in state subsidized housing ... just as i can blaspheme the prophet and his camel (pbu them) because i don't want anything from them ...... if i started praying to them and started asking for 70 virgins and whatnot, then i would be totally out of line ... wouldn't i ?

Re: # 90

arjun,

.... are you saying urstruly is some guy named mohammed?..... i think that urstruly does not really exist - he is a character invented by the horrible hindoos and the zionists to discredit muslims in general, and pakis in particular .... unfortunately, tahmed is our best response to this horrible caricature .....

Re: hamdim2 # 92

“as long as i can have a drink when i want to ......... that's all i want in addition to free markets, democracy and the playboy channel ....... “

and all he wants to do is run your life for you....


sounds like a marriage made in heaven!

Regards,

Faruk

Re: # 85 but within their definitions if there was an overlap, then there would be, perhaps a meeting point, a point from which a new discourse could start.

If there is not overlap - binary- you have a problem.

Re: # 93

"as long as i can have a drink when i want to ......... that's all i want in addition to free markets, democracy and the playboy channel ....... “


There is going to be one in Jannah- with lots of intoxicating and refreshing drinks and a lot of houries and young boys as per your preference.

And the benefit is that none of the gals there mensturate- thereby implying that they are available 24X7 times a day for your pleasure.

How can you resist that offer from Allah and ask for subscription to a pay channel for which you have to work as slave to the capitalist west.??

An Appeal to Hamidm2 and Urstruly and others!

Since you are all reasonable and learned Gentlefolk. So here is an appeal.

Urstruly(and religious & conservative folk) do whatever Hamidm2 suggests - drink, womenise, go to lap and pole dancing clubs. I.E enjoy life according to Hamidm2

Hamidm2 and others (non-religious debauched folk) do whatever urstruly suggests - bang heads,bend over, whatever in addition to Praying to God, reading the Koran.Life accoding to Urstruly

In other words see what the other perceives to be the DARK SIDE

While you guys are at it (like rabbits or otherwise), me GT, and a few other will open the books and start taking bets!

Its a win win all roound. What say you!