Of Carnage and Triumph

Re: # 80 Posted by masadi on October 20, 2007 11:05:40 am

[but no feudal can ensure that it remains a feudal country, were it not for the US elite/Pak Army meddling in the affairs of the state,]

Nonsense. If there are other economic forces feudal system could be minimized to bare minimum. In the US farmers are just 2% of the US GDP.

Surely, hamidm, can elaborate further.

BJ Kumar

"the armed forces arrest and extradite to India the Indian mob figures responsible for bombings in that country......."

Pakistan will hand over the mob figures only after India has punished the perpetrators of the genocide against muslims in India including Bal tHakary and Modi; if your systems are weak and you cant punish them then hand them over to Pakistan where they will be given the apropriate punishment

Otherwise you are just another whining twofaced hindu with no credibility.

[why do you think so many pakistani feudals are in politics.....why aren't so many businessmen, lawyers, farmers etc. in politics.....]

The reason is quite simple. Intellectuals are not welcome in any Islamic country, and Pakistan is no exception. It takes money to politicize people whether it is money from agri-land or oil land or opium land.

What is himidmism?

Actually, Pakistan is being prepped for an imminent attack on Iran. Unlike their attack on Iraq, Western powers want to be completely prepared and assault Iran, before G.W. leaves office. Any insurgency coming from Pakistan will be neutered in Pakistan by the Pak-NATO alliance.

Re: # 91 NS is not dirt poor man. He is great industialist specially in iron and foundries. He has industry reated to foundries in S. Arabaria Saudi Arabians want him there as he is plan putting steel factories there.

Re: # 91
I am not saying that she has manipulated the situation against NS but rather to exhort herself from cases particularly those which are in foreign courts. Pakistani judicial system has little credibility-even it convicts BB her international standing remains intact. She was worried about international cases and knew that a conviction was likely. I am merely saying that contesting elections is NS right also not merely BB’s. Here the right is being selectively given.

Re: # 88

I do not think she manipulated the situation against NS. NS and BB rivalry is too open despite public pronouncements. NS made a fool of himself by first signing his exile papers and then trying to over run Pakistan with the support of the mullahs of MMA. NS chickened out when clinton told him about the readied nukes during kargil and called off Mush's plans which infuriated the real jehadi in Mush. NS is the real opportunist - BB's family suffered and Zardari faced 10 years in prison- if she was that powerful he would not have done so much of term. Why not NS face that term than take those 40 bags stuffed with dollars and live in mansions in exile?? NS is the joker of the pack now and mullahs are trying to use him. Mush has seen through the alliance between NS and the mullahs.

Re: # 84

romair,

.... you fool! ... where did you get this : "nawaz sharif - son of a very poor brick kiln laborer " ....

..... mian muhammad sharif and his five or six brothers were big industrialists in amritsar before they came to lahore ....... ever heard of ittefaq foundaries ? ....

.... stop spreading your nonsense on chowk - this place is already stinking to high heaven with the garbage piled on by mad masadi .........

#81 Bulleya

Yaar, you forgot a few. Let me supply......

- the army chiefs and all their key leaders admit their crimes of subverting the constitution. They accept the applicable prison terms awarded by the courts in order to prove that they indeed are capable of accepting responsibility......

- the armed forces modify their structures so the power will never be centralized and there never will be a coup ever again. They accept the supremacy of civilian institutions forever......

- the armed forces release the Hamidur Rahman report in its entirety, and hold the guilty parties (whoever those be) accountable for their criminal acts and tender an unqualified apology to the country of Bangladesh for the unspeakable atrocities of 1971 and compensate the victims or their descendants.......

- the armed forces publish openly and punish all the ISI criminals who perpetrated the IC-814 outrage.......

- the armed forces arrest and extradite to India the Indian mob figures responsible for bombings in that country.......

I think the above may be good starters!

Re: # 87
I do agree that she should be allowed and for that matter she is the only one being allowed. The field is being cleared of her rivals- no not the Mullahs but Mian Nawaz Sharif.
If you have followed our history closely, you will find that it was rather a centre to right Nawaz Sharif who actually tried to make friends with India. He was deceived by army which launched Kargil operation and the resulting embarrassment led to Nawaz Sharif's ouster by the army. Although personally I am not a right wing person but Nawaz Sharif should have been at least allowed to come back as it is his democratic right also. The reason why you find some people against BB is that she has cleverly used the situation and got rid of all the corruption charges by actually linking her political support with that condition. It is not her coming back to which I am objecting but to her actual intentions. Moreover compared to Nawaz Sharif her exile was a self imposed exile- no body kicked her out.
I would have still agreed to this manipulation if she was the right answer-but in reality her vote bank is concentrated in wrong areas. Moreover people also keep on forgetting that Taliban government was actually formed during her tenor and with her explicit approval although the lady seems to deny that again and again.

Re: # 84

Most of the democracies have 'political families' at the helm- right from Nehru to Keneddy to Bush to Clinton and other places it has been the second generation taking up the calling of their family- it is like a caste system.
It has its advantages as well as dis-advantages- I do not understand how being ZAB's daughter becomes a dis-qualification for contesting a fair election.

Corruption is only an excuse for the army to take over the country. In doing so they destroyed every democratic institution in Pakistan.

Re: # 84 Generally poor are as corroupt as rich. Poor are not corroupt not because of virtue but have no chance to be corroupt, they are powerless.

Re: # 81 This is best one can think of to happen.
But as I said before Pakistan history shows we never gate lucky break but we get screwed up.
Even if it happens central exitential problem of "K" is there. Without K problem we would not have become totally dependent of USA. What best can happen to "K" problem so it is solved to satisfaction of Pakistan and once for all army forget about eastern and southern theatres which is over 2000 miles of problem line. Is there any light at end of tunnel ? Without "K" problem solved army will have to have share lion's resources and otherthings are secondary.
Any thoughts ?

even the poor become corrupt when in power:

- the general perception in pakistan is that it is a family dominated state, run by rich elites.......however, a closer look reveals otherwise......other than bhutto family, the rest of the powerhouses in pakistan are from middle to poor families:

- benazir - daughter of a super rich elitist feudal family

however,

- musharraf - son of middle class immigrant civil servant
- nawaz sharif - son of a very poor brick kiln laborer
- chaudhry shujaat - son of a police constable
- altaf hussein - an immigrant middle class pharmacy student
- ashfaq kiyani (coas designate) - son of a poor army sepoy

Re# 77 Thanks for understanding the point. I was not expressing contempt for the common man but merely trying to convey what was being said by that man. My family voted for PPP particularly in 1970s and even today as a matter of her democratic right I do not have any objection on her return. Its just that she is manipulating the situation and creatiing this impression that she is the answer.
I do not think that extremism can be controlled by popular support which is actually geographically not pronounced in troubled areas. The better political way, that is if you want to control extremism politically, is to pacify the dominant political forces which are present there even if they are conservative mullahs so that they are not able to raise agitation while army action is taking place. I do agree that army action also has to take place as I am against this form of blind and mad hatred which those militant elements are cultivating. But keep it focused and targeted.