Of Carnage and Triumph

hamidm/tahmad #: of the four questions i asked, only one has been answered, i.e. hamidm mian's father was not a brigadier......the remaining three remain unanswered.....hence i will ask them again:

tahmad: was your father in the military and was he a brigadier
hamidm mian: was your father in the military (if not a brigadier, then some other rank, perhaps?)

"but...and mr know-it-all .........."

i am, still, truly amazed that you consider me a, "know-it-all"......perhaps it could be that i only have average knowledge and yours is quite a bit below, hence i seem like a know-it-all to you.......

Hindus could be behind many of the blasts in Pakistan

The Times of India -Breaking news, views. reviews, cricket from across India





Blatant double standards
22 Oct 2007, 0000 hrs IST,

SMS NEWS to 58888 for latest updates
With Islamic groups “not being ruled out’’ as culprits in the Ludhiana bomb blast, and Bangladeshis being interrogated for the Ajmer blast, it is clear that in India’s fight against terrorism, one group of terrorists is being completely excluded.

This is despite the Nanded blast in April 2006, in which two persons died while making bombs in the house of an RSS member, and the recovery of fake beards from the house. This is despite the revelations during narco-analysis of the accused that the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) was training Hindu youth to commit terrorist acts outside mosques. Neither the RSS nor any of its militant wings are ever suspected by the police of being behind any of the bomb blasts that have targeted Muslims with regularity since the 2003 Parbhani blast.

This newspaper highlighted the sensational letter written from Tihar jail by an ex-Intelligence Bureau (IB) informer detailing how IB, working with the Delhi Police’s Special Cell, plants its own ‘‘jehadi maulvis’’ to lure Muslim youth to commit terrorist acts. The Central Bureau of Investigation, directed by the Delhi high court, has corroborated the most important accusations made by the informer. Every politically conscious Muslim, thanks to the Urdu press and the internet, now knows this story.

These two factors taken together are enough to destroy the credibility of the intelligence set-up and the police. Yet, the latter continue to act true to type after every blast, as though nothing’s changed. The same automatic blaming and arrest of the usual suspects; the same revelation that the IB/home department had warned about such a blast.

It is ironic that the very congregations of Muslims that have always been treated with suspicion by the police have become the targets of terrorist killings since 2003.

The depositions of senior policemen before the Srikrishna commission were marked by a Friday-namaz-phobia; they made it a point to stress that ‘‘bandobast was tightened for the Friday prayers and no untoward incident took place’’. The implication was clear: with Muslims gathering in such large numbers to listen to sermons in mosques, there was every chance of them going berserk thereafter.

Yet, there is little evidence of the high-profile Anti-Terrorist Squads (ATS), set up in Maharashtra and elsewhere, having conducted raids on RSS outfits. In fact, the Maharashtra Control of Organised Crime Act has not even been applied to the Nanded RSS accused, while it has to those accused for the July 11, 2006 train blasts, the Malegaon blasts and the alleged Naxalites. Nanded’s Muslims had to move the court before the state even called in the ATS to investigate the case.

You don’t need to be the IB to fear a blast during Diwali. Imagine the backlash if that happens. Yet, a blast on the eve of Ramzan Eid at India’s best-known Muslim shrine created no such reaction. The Ajmer dargah was teeming with devotees who had fasted the entire month and planned to spend their most important religious festival at their favourite shrine. Even the return of the bodies to their homes in Mumbai’s slums passed off peacefully. Compare this extreme restraint with the threats given by the Modis, Thackerays, Togadias and Singhals in similar circumstances.

After every bomb blast targeting Hindus, these self-styled Hindu leaders ask why Muslims have not condemned it. Their logic is clear: Because some Muslims have targeted Hindus, the entire community has to distance itself from them or else share their guilt. But not once in the recent blasts targeting Muslims has such a demand been made by Muslims of Hindus; neither have Hindu organisations condemned such acts.

The state’s agencies have different yardsticks when dealing with terrorist acts targeting Hindus and Muslims. What’s more disturbing is the difference between the conduct of the victim communities in the aftermath of such acts. Isn’t this difference an indication of the power equation between the majority and largest minority in our secular democracy?

romair,

you idiot ! .... who told you that my father was a brigadier ? ...... the poor man used to ride a bicycle to work because he wanted to save on the petrol - albeit, it was a phillips with a pump mounted on the cross bar and the orderly would dust it off and hold it for him ! ....

..... and don't give me this crap about your poor buddies in the airforce ...... if you had managed to keep your job as a grease monkey for fifteen years, you could have walked off with a house worth two crore rupees ...... and, if you were smart, you could also have landed a couple of plots in dha which you could have flipped and pocketed another 50 lakh or so ......... i know plenty of wing commanders who have done just that then gone ont to a cushy job with shaheen foundation ......... but you are a fool and are now pounding the pavement as an international businessman, plitical pundit and mr know-it-all ..........

..... jeez ! what a maroon !

#141 bulleye: you write "- if someone is a product of higher-ups of the military, and believes that military higher-up is filled with corruption (which it is), yet does not disclose such information about himself, he is a hypocrite...."

your powers of logic never cease to amaze me!! i bet you could almost reason your way out of an open barn door.

and your implication that i am "not divulging" information about myself is bs - i am actually one of the more open posters on chowk, and when i consider it relevant to what I am writing i mention family details. but that is my choice, not something i or anyone owes anyone on chowk.

only a moron would think that anyone owes some stranger on the internet his personal details.

#141 bulleye: you write "- if someone is a product of higher-ups of the military, and believes that military higher-up is filled with corruption (which it is), yet does not disclose such information about himself, he is a hypocrite...."

your powers of logic never cease to amaze me!! i bet you could almost reason your way out of an open barn door.

and your implication that i am "not divulging" information about myself is bs - i am actually one of the more open posters on chowk, and when i consider it relevant to what I am writing i mention family details. but that is my choice, not something i or anyone owes anyone on chowk.

only a moron would think that anyone owes some stranger on the internet his personal details.

tahmad #139: "How are the official ranks of anyone's aba-o-ijdaad relevant to what that individual writes on chowk?"

...could i request you to kindly answer the questions:

3. tahmad mian: was your father in the pakistan army
4. tahmad mian: was he a brigadier

...it is not a question of official ranks......it is question of figuring out exactly where one is coming from......it allows one to differentiate the hypocrites from the straight-talkers........e.g.

- if someone migrates to the usa and benefits from the usa by living there, yet still badmounths the place, he is a hypocrite

- if someone urges others' kids to war, but will never send his own, he is a hypocrite

- if someone is a product of higher-ups of the military, and believes that military higher-up is filled with corruption (which it is), yet does not disclose such information about himself, he is a hypocrite....

#135 bulleye: How are the official ranks of anyone's aba-o-ijdaad relevant to what that individual writes on chowk? The internet is the supreme equalizer in many ways - what you write stands or falls on its own merits, without any influence exerted by socio-economic levels, personal gravitas, and so forth. Lets not try to change that.

#135 bulleye: How are the official ranks of anyone's aba-o-ijdaad relevant to what that individual writes on chowk? The internet is the supreme equalizer in many ways - what you write stands or falls on its own merits, without any influence exerted by socio-economic levels, personal gravitas, and so forth. Lets not try to change that.

Ras and Hamidm: Thanks for your words of appreciation.

Romair sahib,

What really are the options in front of Pakistan and gen Mush at the moment?

If they dont fight, two things can happen. First, they risk the jihadis establishing themselves firmly in FATA from where they will gradually spreads their tentacles into the rest of NWFP and after that the whole of Pakistan. In effect creeping Talibanisation of Pakistan. Second, if things go out of control in FATA, their is the possibility that USA decides to military intervene in NWFP without Paki approval in fact in face of downright Paki opposition. And there wouldn't be much that pakistan can do about it. In such a case USA wuldnt care to provide any susbidy to Pak Army if it is doing the fighting itself.

If it does fight in FATA, it risks heavy casualty both to itself and to the civillian population and heavy unpopularity in rest of Pakistan too for the Pakis (barring the kanjaroon elite) perceive it as USA's war. And should the US-Pak alliance win decisively in A'stan-FATA (which is very likely) there is always a possibility that once the war is over USA just walks out without any big payoff to pakistan (except of course saving civil society in Pak which is a big plus any way).

Hard choices for Pakistan and its ruler but on balance you would think that the best option is to fight and win in FATA. While at the same time try to wean away the local population from the jihadi cause by investing in their development

Regards

#134 by bulleya

so the two biggest beneificiaries of the army, encouraging other poorer folks to, "fight on" while quitely enjoying themselves in the usa........

Romair mian, if it wasn't for the lack of opportunity, I'm sure you would have been in the WOT too, fighting for the Paki Army against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. After all, not too long ago, weren't you the one who expressed an itch to lead the American troops into Afghanistan?

four questions for messrs. hamidm mian and tahmad:

1. hamidm mian: was your father in the pakistan army
2. hamidm mian: was he a brigadier....
3. tahmad mian: was your father in the pakistan army
4. tahmad mian: was he a brigadier

let's come clean and establish one's backgrounds....

p.s. a brigadier during those days was equivalent to a lt. gen. of today's world.......

hamidm mian #: "whenever we went up with friends who were junior officers in the air force or army, we never paid the toll - the flying officer"

..i will definitely agree with you on this, when it comes to generals....i have had much larger fights with them then you can ever type on your keyboards.....

in fact, didn't you say your father was a brigadier....hence you, yourself, are a product of this military feudalism.....the fact that you are comfortably settled in usa and can afford a sprinkler guy, should be the first item you (and the rest of us) should be criticizing......quite a bit of hypocrisy......a scion of the military elite, not criticizing himself first....

as for the flying officer and lieutenant, kindly spare a thought for the poor guy.......i used to be one......and lived from paycheck to paycheck......these guys have zero money.......even now, when i go back and meet my batchmates, and take them out to pizza hut, they all get this worried look on their face, when the bill arrives....

now the four or five of them who become generals, will no doubt, make huge amounts of money, through legalized corruptoin......and will then send their kid to the usa, who will benefit from this corruption, and hire a sprinkler guy........or wait, hasn't that already happened.....

so, would it be correct to state, that your dad is, himself, a brigadier and a beneficiary of this legalized corruption.......shouldn't we (or you, yourself) be targeting you, first.......

you are a wealthy expat, sitting abroad, having lived off the benefits of pakistan and the benefits of the pakistan army through your dad, never willing to come back to pakistan to do anything, encouraging every war yet never willing to volunteer for it, and bent on keeping your kids away from it, while encouraging poorer kids to fight........

p.s. if i am not incorrect, i believe mr. tahmad's dad was also a brigadier in the pakistan army........kindly correct me, if i am wrong tahmad......

so the two biggest beneificiaries of the army, encouraging other poorer folks to, "fight on" while quitely enjoying themselves in the usa........allah be praised.....and george bush be praised.......

When a person (Ras) has been reduced to mere cheerleading in posts, you can know that his grasp of the issues and arguments is rather weak. Tahmed has no personal point of view, as usual he is merely pushing the official talking points of the US elite and hence his support for BB. Hamid is pushing the official talking points not of the US elite (who are more sophisticated) but the talking points of Bush (who stumbles through the elite agenda due to weakness in the intellect department), and were it not for Cheney they would have got rid of him by now, so in this progressively lowered expectations, Ras figures in at the bottom pushing the talking points of both the peons of the West....

Re: # 130

ras mian,

.... tahmed is a good chap even though i sometimes berate him for being a 'good' muslim .... if all muslims were like him i could live with islam .......

hamidm2 Sahib,

write on!

Never thought that I would be writing this but

I want to extend my appreciation to tahmed32 Sahib.

Not only is he right in my opinion but he has a much

better understanding of the current situation than bull eya

ahmed mad ani and especially Lad du.

Ras

romair,

... you fool! ....... let me tell you who the real 'feudals' are in pakistan ...... maybe i will just give you a simple example that even your airman's brain can understand:

.... on the way from pindi to murree there is a toll gate at satran meel (seventeen mile) ..... as long as i can remember, whenever we went up with friends who were junior officers in the air force or army, we never paid the toll - the flying officer would simply show his id card and be waved through with a salute by a poor civilian in tattered shalwar kameez and chappals ...... even the legharis and mazaris pay up ....

Naqsh

Slap and Run - that's your plan?... Are you running out of suicide belts?...

BTW - I saw a photo of Salman Khan praying to Pagan Goddess Durga... he did again dude... aren't you supposed to kill him or something?...

correcton to #126 that should be "stray, three-legged dog". mea culpa!!

#125 Great response, General Romair sir, if I may say so. And nothing less is expected from you. Now could you teach this miserable Son Masadi to make such clever comebacks too, rather than merely cursing and abusing and whining like a stray one-legged dog?

tahmad #118: "you are too modest!! with your expert analysis of the situation, everything becomes crystal clear even to dumbbells like me. your 20/20 foresight allows your fans to remain ahead of the curve!!!"

as i said, don't hate me because i am beautiful.......

i have never claimed to have 20/20 foresight.....nor have i ever considered you a dumbbell...however, as i stated earlier, if you say so, i will accept both your evaluations - the one about me and the one about you.......

#121 tahmed writes "hamidm: heed romair's observation..."

You need to do something better with your retirement than BS-ing here all day long. Have some dignity you peon of the West. Your posts remind me of the retired donkey let loose by its owner, in your case the US elite, after use and abuse, and not realizing that he is free he keeps singing the same tune as he stumbles from neighbourhood to neighbourhood and road to road. I pity you fool, have some self respect....

masadi, naqshbandi: what an auspicious timing. Just as I was talking about our other distinguished, all-knowing Pakistani on chowk, Romair!! You gentleman form the Holy Trinity, namely the Father Romair, the Son Masadi, and the Holy Ghost Naqshbandi!!

Together you spread grace around the world and protect it from that Great Satan Hamidm!!

hamidm mian# "..i have accepted nothing! ... you said that nawaz sharif was the son of a poor brick-kiln worker implying that he was a self-made man ......."

i have accepted nothing, because there is nothing to accept.....you are fabricating information and trying to pass it on to me.....

do highlight where i said that nawaz sharif is a self-made man.......kindly do this after you highlight where i said he is a hero.......

i stated the following:

1. i said nawaz sharif's father is rags to riches story, which he is......i stand by this, and will continue to do so, until someone provides facts that prove otherwise.....

2. i said that other than benazir, the major power players in pakistan that i listed, come from non-power player middle class to pooor families.....and i stand by that......infact i provided a description of the original profession of their fathers.......none of which you have countered......

you have, for some strange reason attributed to me the following:

1. implying that he was a self-made man .......
2. does not make you a hero .......

i never said any of them are heroes, nor do i think nawaz sharif is a self-made man......

hamidm: heed romair's observation in #116 that lower classes like you have taken over the running of Pakistan from romair raja's noble ancestors!! you upset the natural order of things, and of course you are going to have problems. now get back to your mud-hut where you belong, and dont talk back to your betters, like Raja T-Shirt Romair!!

hamid to bulleya "....... you are disgraceful ! "

And what are you, full of grace? Have you ever bothered reading your own posts....moron

Re: # 114

no. i 'd just slap him and walk on...

romair: you are too modest!! with your expert analysis of the situation, everything becomes crystal clear even to dumbbells like me. your 20/20 foresight allows your fans to remain ahead of the curve!!!

Re: # 116

romair,

.... you idiot! ... i have accepted nothing! ... you said that nawaz sharif was the son of a poor brick-kiln worker implying that he was a self-made man ....... i showed you that he was not .... so stop trying to wriggle out of yet another t-shirt situation ...... and i didn't challenge you on musharraf - he too belongs to the 'elite' class (as classes are defined in pakistan) ......

....... you are disgraceful !

hamidm mian#: "just because your father or grandfather had a tough life does not make you a hero ......"

.....all i stated in my reply was that, contrary to popular belief, many of pakistan's current leaders have come from humble families......."other than bhutto family,....in pakistan are from middle to poor families"....

i have provided the background of these families, which you initially challenged, and now seem to have accepted.......

....where exactly did i say they were heroes?.......kindly highlight.......

p.s. in pakistan, politics works on the basis of families and family backgrounds......benazir would be a nobody had her last name not been bhutto.....infact, neither would her father.......however, punjab has, generally, had a change in hierarchy, as far as families go......there use to be a time when rajas etc. dominated the province......now, barring southern punjab, the leadership has moved into the hands of traditionally poorer groups.......which is what i was trying to highlight......

Re: # 109

romair,

.... you idiot! .... bill ford's grandfather was born in a modest farmhouse in michigan and john rockefeller's father was a travelling salesman who sold magical cures .....

........ just because your father or grandfather had a tough life does not make you a hero ....... heck, my father was running around barefooted till he was five and was squatting in the fields like an ordinary hindoo until he was fifteen ... he lived in a mud house that his mother plastered every year and sat under a kiker tree minding the family buffalo while he studied ..... good for him! ..... but when i was growing up, we always had an indoor toilet and before the flush system came along we always had a christian who would empty out our commodes (as you know muslims don't do menial tasks we couldn't find any hindoos, because they had all left!) ...... so does that mean that i am some kind of a genius ?!

........ you are a fool and an embarassment for all pakistanis ..... if it weren't for you we wouldn't have to suffer at the hands of people like arjun ....

Re: # 112 naqsh

What are you going to do when you meet in real life? Blow yourself up to kill the kafir who insulted your bedouin god?

tahmad #:"hamidm is also jealous of your high-powered contacts!....you are right as always. hamidm is only jealous of your vast knowledge and incredible mind!!"

...don't hate me because i am beautiful.......

....i have neither high-powered contacts, nor an incredible mind.....however, if you want to attribute these qualities to me, that is your perrogative.....

.....now, in comparison to hamidm mian, the above may be true......but enganging in a debate with hamidm mian and proving one's point, is like defeating kenya or zimbabwe in a test match......i.e. it does not require a brilliant mind.......anyone can do it.......

Re: # 105

i hope one day we meet in real life that's all you hindu piss drinker.

to add to #110: hamidm is also jealous of your high-powered contacts!!

#109 bulleya: you are right as always. hamidm is only jealous of your vast knowledge and incredible mind!!

hamidm mian#: "..... mian muhammad sharif and his five or six brothers were big industrialists in amritsar before they came to lahore ....... ever heard of ittefaq foundaries ?"

yes they were.......however, how did they get there......where did they start from?.....please do some research and let us know.......you will discover that it was a rags to riches story.....nawaz sharif's father and his six uncles started from rags and built it into riches.....

all the people i have mentioned (other than altaf hussain), were quite well off, some very rich like nawaz sharif, but their families started from a very middle class or poor background.....including abbaji......which is my point......

bjkumar #: "Yaar, you forgot a few. Let me supply......"

i agree with the points you made regarding pakistan and the army's involvment.......

cannot agree with your points regarding india, until proof is provided......

at the moment this discussion is only regarding pakistani politics.......the reformation of the army and relations with india is a much more complex topic.....

in regards to relations with india, there is a long list of complaints that pakistan has against india as well......i think both sides need to address each others' complaints......not just pakistan.......

laddu#: "Most of the democracies have 'political families....I do not understand how being ZAB's daughter becomes a dis-qualification for contesting a fair election."

this is correct.....however, these families come through a process.....hillary clinton, to become president, has to go through a very strict primary election process....both within her party and within usa.....and then she has to compete in an even more rigorous national election.....

.....in pakistan's rural areas, the second generation of the family gets elected without such rigours......the feudals and pirs own their voters......benazir could nominate her pet dog and it will get elected....i am not joking.....hillary could not do so.....

now in more urban areas, like lahore, things are different....nawaz sharif's son will automatically get elected.......but not his pet dog......

"Corruption is only an excuse for the army to take over the country. In doing so they destroyed every democratic institution in Pakistan."

......i agree......in fact, now that i have a better understanding of pakistan, having spent six months there, and having had a chance to interact with individuals i would not have had access to fifteen years ago, i think the high command of the army may be the most corrupt group....they have actually legalised corruption......all politicians etc. do pay for their corruption......zardari was in jail, benazir and nawaz in exile......however, it is interesting that not one general has been convicted of any crime and been put in a real jail.....

the ex-naval chief was convicted......however, musharraf placed him in a rest house, not in jail........while ppp's ex finance minister (naveed qamar) and speaker (yusuf gilani) were in a real jail for years, without being convicted......as was the head of pml....javed hashmi......

"I don't get what makes them so interested in lording over Pakistanis,..."

Hey, this is your Pak Studies and your history books that is speaking. If we wanted to we would have finished you off in 1971. But as you - 'Allah is merciful'.
We are not interested in anything to do with you . We do not mind if you belch allahu a thousand times a day or band your haed 50 times a day .
Just do not think about hurting any of the idolators or thinking that we would live in your Shariah land as your zimmi slaves.
Just keep of Mr. momeen troll.

" advising them to do this or that."
Hey, you can keep on blowing yourself or flogging each other for not being momeen enough. No problems.Go ahead!! But, Just do not think of sending jehadis to our land or killing hindu idolators.
We are only interested to the extent that is necessary to be prepared for selfdefence against the evil of Islam that is being nurtured in Pakistan against non muslims and hindu idolators.

say this publically-

" I declare that Allah is not the God but an evil Satanic deity. Mohammad is not a prophet but a charlatan and a rapist, pedophile bandit."

Re: # 103
"Heck, even after spending all my life with these Hindus I don't get what makes them so interested in lording over Pakistanis, advising them to do this or that. :("

Kaal you are clearly a momeen troll.

Can you negate the kalima publically in order to prove that you are a hindu idolator??

bori bhai, you won't get this Hindu man, beej. Heck, even after spending all my life with these Hindus I don't get what makes them so interested in lording over Pakistanis, advising them to do this or that. :(

Bjkumar what kind of hindu duplicity is this; for your own criminals and genociders you say:

"nobody in India denies that these individuals live in India. In fact, they live there openly!"

for us you say we should punish them incuding those who have deposed despots' but have commited no crime against humanity as have your hindu modis and thakray

no wonder hindus are famed for their duplicity even by the former british officials in India

#100 Express

Don't go wishy-washy on me. Answer the rest of the questions which the Bulleya is too chicken to answer!

(From #89)

- the army chiefs and all their key leaders admit their crimes of subverting the constitution. They accept the applicable prison terms awarded by the courts in order to prove that they indeed are capable of accepting responsibility......

- the armed forces modify their structures so the power will never be centralized and there never will be a coup ever again. They accept the supremacy of civilian institutions forever......

- the armed forces release the Hamidur Rahman report in its entirety, and hold the guilty parties (whoever those be) accountable for their criminal acts and tender an unqualified apology to the country of Bangladesh for the unspeakable atrocities of 1971 and compensate the victims or their descendants.......

- the armed forces publish openly and punish all the ISI criminals who perpetrated the IC-814 outrage.......

"nobody in India denies that these individuals live in India. In fact, they live there openly!"

This is the shame BJKumar that such criminals and mass murders and demogogues should live openly and freely in the 21st century in a country that purports itself to be democratic

shame

#97 Express

Dear Express, funny that you cut into my conversation with the Bulleya and pick this particular issue.

Does it mean that you agree with me on the other requirements that the khakis need to fulfill (as listed in #89)?

Bolo yaar, zubaan ghaas charne chal gayi, kya?

In any case, whatever the deeds of the two individuals you mention - they are not accused of doing anything inside the great Pakistan country (called P. country, for short).

Further, unlike the cowardly khakis of the P. country who deny that the Indian mobsters are their honored bosom-buddy-guests, nobody in India denies that these individuals live in India. In fact, they live there openly!

I know, I know - that sense of the ummaaaahhh is really overpowering for you - commonsense be darned!

I feel your pen! (Then I stick it to you.)

Re: # 80 Posted by masadi on October 20, 2007 11:05:40 am

[but no feudal can ensure that it remains a feudal country, were it not for the US elite/Pak Army meddling in the affairs of the state,]

Nonsense. If there are other economic forces feudal system could be minimized to bare minimum. In the US farmers are just 2% of the US GDP.

Surely, hamidm, can elaborate further.

BJ Kumar

"the armed forces arrest and extradite to India the Indian mob figures responsible for bombings in that country......."

Pakistan will hand over the mob figures only after India has punished the perpetrators of the genocide against muslims in India including Bal tHakary and Modi; if your systems are weak and you cant punish them then hand them over to Pakistan where they will be given the apropriate punishment

Otherwise you are just another whining twofaced hindu with no credibility.

[why do you think so many pakistani feudals are in politics.....why aren't so many businessmen, lawyers, farmers etc. in politics.....]

The reason is quite simple. Intellectuals are not welcome in any Islamic country, and Pakistan is no exception. It takes money to politicize people whether it is money from agri-land or oil land or opium land.

What is himidmism?

Actually, Pakistan is being prepped for an imminent attack on Iran. Unlike their attack on Iraq, Western powers want to be completely prepared and assault Iran, before G.W. leaves office. Any insurgency coming from Pakistan will be neutered in Pakistan by the Pak-NATO alliance.

Re: # 91 NS is not dirt poor man. He is great industialist specially in iron and foundries. He has industry reated to foundries in S. Arabaria Saudi Arabians want him there as he is plan putting steel factories there.

Re: # 91
I am not saying that she has manipulated the situation against NS but rather to exhort herself from cases particularly those which are in foreign courts. Pakistani judicial system has little credibility-even it convicts BB her international standing remains intact. She was worried about international cases and knew that a conviction was likely. I am merely saying that contesting elections is NS right also not merely BB’s. Here the right is being selectively given.

Re: # 88

I do not think she manipulated the situation against NS. NS and BB rivalry is too open despite public pronouncements. NS made a fool of himself by first signing his exile papers and then trying to over run Pakistan with the support of the mullahs of MMA. NS chickened out when clinton told him about the readied nukes during kargil and called off Mush's plans which infuriated the real jehadi in Mush. NS is the real opportunist - BB's family suffered and Zardari faced 10 years in prison- if she was that powerful he would not have done so much of term. Why not NS face that term than take those 40 bags stuffed with dollars and live in mansions in exile?? NS is the joker of the pack now and mullahs are trying to use him. Mush has seen through the alliance between NS and the mullahs.

Re: # 84

romair,

.... you fool! ... where did you get this : "nawaz sharif - son of a very poor brick kiln laborer " ....

..... mian muhammad sharif and his five or six brothers were big industrialists in amritsar before they came to lahore ....... ever heard of ittefaq foundaries ? ....

.... stop spreading your nonsense on chowk - this place is already stinking to high heaven with the garbage piled on by mad masadi .........

#81 Bulleya

Yaar, you forgot a few. Let me supply......

- the army chiefs and all their key leaders admit their crimes of subverting the constitution. They accept the applicable prison terms awarded by the courts in order to prove that they indeed are capable of accepting responsibility......

- the armed forces modify their structures so the power will never be centralized and there never will be a coup ever again. They accept the supremacy of civilian institutions forever......

- the armed forces release the Hamidur Rahman report in its entirety, and hold the guilty parties (whoever those be) accountable for their criminal acts and tender an unqualified apology to the country of Bangladesh for the unspeakable atrocities of 1971 and compensate the victims or their descendants.......

- the armed forces publish openly and punish all the ISI criminals who perpetrated the IC-814 outrage.......

- the armed forces arrest and extradite to India the Indian mob figures responsible for bombings in that country.......

I think the above may be good starters!

Re: # 87
I do agree that she should be allowed and for that matter she is the only one being allowed. The field is being cleared of her rivals- no not the Mullahs but Mian Nawaz Sharif.
If you have followed our history closely, you will find that it was rather a centre to right Nawaz Sharif who actually tried to make friends with India. He was deceived by army which launched Kargil operation and the resulting embarrassment led to Nawaz Sharif's ouster by the army. Although personally I am not a right wing person but Nawaz Sharif should have been at least allowed to come back as it is his democratic right also. The reason why you find some people against BB is that she has cleverly used the situation and got rid of all the corruption charges by actually linking her political support with that condition. It is not her coming back to which I am objecting but to her actual intentions. Moreover compared to Nawaz Sharif her exile was a self imposed exile- no body kicked her out.
I would have still agreed to this manipulation if she was the right answer-but in reality her vote bank is concentrated in wrong areas. Moreover people also keep on forgetting that Taliban government was actually formed during her tenor and with her explicit approval although the lady seems to deny that again and again.

Re: # 84

Most of the democracies have 'political families' at the helm- right from Nehru to Keneddy to Bush to Clinton and other places it has been the second generation taking up the calling of their family- it is like a caste system.
It has its advantages as well as dis-advantages- I do not understand how being ZAB's daughter becomes a dis-qualification for contesting a fair election.

Corruption is only an excuse for the army to take over the country. In doing so they destroyed every democratic institution in Pakistan.

Re: # 84 Generally poor are as corroupt as rich. Poor are not corroupt not because of virtue but have no chance to be corroupt, they are powerless.

Re: # 81 This is best one can think of to happen.
But as I said before Pakistan history shows we never gate lucky break but we get screwed up.
Even if it happens central exitential problem of "K" is there. Without K problem we would not have become totally dependent of USA. What best can happen to "K" problem so it is solved to satisfaction of Pakistan and once for all army forget about eastern and southern theatres which is over 2000 miles of problem line. Is there any light at end of tunnel ? Without "K" problem solved army will have to have share lion's resources and otherthings are secondary.
Any thoughts ?

even the poor become corrupt when in power:

- the general perception in pakistan is that it is a family dominated state, run by rich elites.......however, a closer look reveals otherwise......other than bhutto family, the rest of the powerhouses in pakistan are from middle to poor families:

- benazir - daughter of a super rich elitist feudal family

however,

- musharraf - son of middle class immigrant civil servant
- nawaz sharif - son of a very poor brick kiln laborer
- chaudhry shujaat - son of a police constable
- altaf hussein - an immigrant middle class pharmacy student
- ashfaq kiyani (coas designate) - son of a poor army sepoy

Re# 77 Thanks for understanding the point. I was not expressing contempt for the common man but merely trying to convey what was being said by that man. My family voted for PPP particularly in 1970s and even today as a matter of her democratic right I do not have any objection on her return. Its just that she is manipulating the situation and creatiing this impression that she is the answer.
I do not think that extremism can be controlled by popular support which is actually geographically not pronounced in troubled areas. The better political way, that is if you want to control extremism politically, is to pacify the dominant political forces which are present there even if they are conservative mullahs so that they are not able to raise agitation while army action is taking place. I do agree that army action also has to take place as I am against this form of blind and mad hatred which those militant elements are cultivating. But keep it focused and targeted.

Re: # 73 Romair i do not agree with you all times but you are giving right description what is happening or will happen.
My friend , boss told me some thing is going to happen soon in midwinter he has told many tings which proved right before.
USA govt and GOP has a plan for to introduction of army on permanant basis and establishing it self in all major towns in W. Stan. Army will enter in winter in Soth and North W.STan for permanant basis with big backing with field artillery fire power and air cavalary ( Big helicpter Gunships). The idea is to deny safe heaven to Taliban who are making troubles in A.Stan. try to choke taliban activity which they feel will be terrible blow to T.Bans. They have tested communiation gears already and new satellite positions being done to have full communication and instant communications. The formations will be following tactics of American forces or like Stepnaz forces. The ground forces of army will not be told anything and will go in action so no leakage. New general ( vice chief) is all time in touch with USA group in A.Stan.
I wonder you have heard from your privy sources same thing. Basic ideais to make history tribal status of terrority and no effects will spared in man, materials, airmachines and specially helicopter Gunships.
Thanks in advance if you know or want to add about establishing new system in W.Stan. Good night, sleepy

ideal scenario (probabaly too idealistic, though practically possible)

- supreme court disallows musharraf's election...musharraf quitely accepts the decision and leaves.....

- supreme courts disallows nro and hears corruption cases against bb and ns.....it convicts them and through a national reconciliation deal, they promise to return all the money, and retire from politics......

- ppp and pml go into crisis mode to elect new leadership......aitezaz ahsan becomes leader of ppp and javed hashmi of pml......

- uk hears cases against altaf hussain, filed by imran khan, and convicts him and jails him....mqm elects new leader....

- pakistan political politics align along two lines....liberals on one side (ppp, mqm, anp, ti etc.)....conservatives along other lines (pml, pti, jamaat etc.)

- liberals win elections in a close fight, winning sind and nwfp.....conservatives win punjab and baluchistan......

- aitezaz ahsan becomes prime minister.....asfandyar wali cm of nwfp, new leader of mqm cm of sindh....

- javed hashmi becomes leader of opposition....shahbaz sharif becomes chief minister punjab, and some dude becomes cm baluchistan (i don't know much about baluchistan).....

- imran khan is asked to leave his national assembly seat and the conservative coalition, and is jointly nominated as president......

- yusuf raza gilani of ppp becomes speaker national assembly.....raza rabbani of ppp becomes senate chairman.....

- hamidm mian and urstruly decide to return to pakistan, and move from becoming keyboard revolutionaries to real ones......

Re #73 bulleya, Pakistan is a feudal country- true, but no feudal can ensure that it remains a feudal country, were it not for the US elite/Pak Army meddling in the affairs of the state, feudalism in Pakistan would have eclipsed long ago. Today's feudals do not independantly control affairs in Pakistan, they have to leech off the mutual fulfilment of motives of the real power brokers the US elite and their occupation force in Pakistan. On the other hand feudalism is much more insecure than industrial capitalism, so defeating the former should be relatively easy were it not for US/Pak Army meddling in the affairs of the state...

#76 zensufi

Yaar, do not despair. Just change your nick tp zenmuni or aomething along those lines and before you know it, you will have the ole Kaal eating out of your hand again. Really!

#73 Bulleya

Yaar, you now have me all depressed. Perhaps like Gandhiji (or was it the Osho), I need to take mauna-vrata which, in addition to benefitting the soul by calming it, also keeps one from getting into more trouble.

I recognize the BeeB is a very polarizing figure! She is clearly beloved by all those people who showed up to receive her but not by everybody. The question is - who is better than her? Not too many, I am afraid. Therefore, let us hope she does better this time around.

Be that as it may, it is not the army's role to be the ruler or even the kingmaker. They would be better off leaving the average Pakistanis to make their own decisions and should stop trying to "help". They are pretty lousey at it.

Re: # 74

I could see an underlying current of contempt for that man on the street which rather provoked me.
No offense intended but it was just the elitist presumption of some of the Pakistanis who scoff at any mention of democracy or allowing BB to contest the elections with an anti-mullah agenda.
I could see some elites being too uncomfortable with BB leading the nation and setting back the mullah's march towards Pakistan's political power (and the nukes as well).

Re: # 72
Yes, true... political parties everywhere are locked in battles, but most battles are civil and/or diplomatic as oxymoronic as that may sound! Re the sufi bit, yeah... I like to twirl like Dancing Dervishes.

Re: # 69
I second you opinion,corrouption is part of life and one looks at as Lubrication to things move is fine only problem is now lubrication is essential. I agree no point in making too much of corrouption as ultimately we will die and can not carry money at day of judgement. To understand all is to fotgive all.

Re#70
The point which was being made was about the Bhutto cult and the expectation from her from those who were present there. If you carefully read the post you will understand what is being actually said. I was not giving a complete verdict but merely communicating what was being said. And these statements were also covered in the media and aired. The fact is that her support is not because of her stated desire of getting extremism under control and that is not the expectation from rural people who form the main bulk of her support.
Moreover I have also tried to explain the geographical distribution of her support and try to convey why over expecting from her to deliver the goods is not the right idea.
If you disagree, fine but kindly try to first read carefully before coming up with your verdicts about my education level. I can also come up with crude personal remarks but I will refrain from it. I think the central idea behind this site is to encourage concrete dialogue about this issue and not to flaunt our so called better education/intelligence levels and to pass verdicts about others.
That is all-no hard feelings

bjkumar #: "The BeeB is from Sindh....have such widespread appeal?"

...very few....probably only nawaz sharif....the reason is quite simple....there is no system or mechanism for any politician to break through the feudal dominated political structure...even if someone like nawaz sharif comes up, the base of his party remains feudal, as pakistan is still a feudal country......if the "BeeB" steps aside, and someone else takes over PPP, then that individual will have equivalent appeal....which is why she will never step aside....

by the way, she would have been a nobody, had she not been zab's daughter......it is his appeal she is riding on....

"that within feudals, like within any large group, there are a variety of qualities of people."

on this one, i have to totally disagree with you....it's like saying, within rapists there might be a variety of people.....feudalism and its support, inherently, is an evil act......it is based on the exploitation of the poor person.......

why do you think so many pakistani feudals are in politics.....why aren't so many businessmen, lawyers, farmers etc. in politics.....feudals are in politics to ensure pakistan's feudal structure never changes......thus, the whole class is, inherently, evil, when it comes to politics.....

"the decisions must be made by the people or their legitimate representatives - clumsily, hesitatingly, and all that. It is all a part of the process. It can not be imposed on the people."

this is correct.......however, this is not going to happen, if the ruling class is allowed to totally break the law......legislatures and constitutions cannot come into existence on their own......they require judicial oversight......and democracy requires pre-requisites to be in place.......the first of which is end to large scale feudal landholdings.......

"In the past, the BeeB never had REAL power"

she had enough power to hold elections in her own party, at least......and to not carry out massive personal corruption.....it is one thing to make some bucks on the side in some deal.....but to set up so many companies in the virign islands......and buying mansions in europe.......one has to draw the line, somewhere.....

i think you are working under the assumption that bb and her feudal friends and all concerned about the common man and the image of pakistan and what not......these guys are crooks through and through.....they have one concern......to ensure pakistan never progresses from a feudal based country to an urban one......to ensure this, they have to be in political power.......

the net result of this will be a religious revolution.....bb cannot and will not provide good governance.......good governance will mean equal opportunities to all, which will result in an end to feudalism.......the whole purpose of bb and her class is to ensure this never happens.....eventually, people will get tired of the liberal side of pakistan, which is led by feudals and pirs (who, in their own areas are the most illiberal people), and will turn towards the military, as they always do......however, people are fed up of the military also.....who else is left......the religious right....

expecting the feudals to reform pakistan is like asking the fox to gaurd the chickens.....doesn't matter how good or brave or articulate the fox is, its aim is to eat the chickens, not to guard them.....

ppp is good for pakistan......without its feudal and pir leadership....

p.s. if bb comes into power, it may be good for the rich expat and even non-expat pakistanis who live in big cities.....ppp leadership will allow the, "party culture" in lahore, islamabad, karachi etc......something the maulvis would never allow......so the chowk crowd will be ok under bb..... but the country will be back to terrible 90s, on its way to financial defaults, with ppp loyalists filling up all govt. jobs resulting in very inefficient corporations etc.....

sufi ji, political parties everywhere are contantly locked in battles. As a sufi, you are probably more comfortable with constant revolution.

Bhutto's politics aside, look at the impact of this tragedy on Pakistan. Every time such setbacks occur, the people and the country's infrastructure suffer. How is a country to advance if its political parties are constantly locked in battles? The people need to be resilient and move on forward not backward. The word “revolution� means “a turn around� --- Pakistanis need a revolution which focuses on advancement - political, technological, educational, financial…

Re: # 68

"answer was – nothing!! We just love Bhutto and she is his daughter"

You ask a stupid question and any lay man would brush it off with a casual answer than take you seriously. If any one thinks that what the common man thinks is given by that casual answer to that stupid question then that stupid guy needs to get his head examined.
Only a man with little education would probably think that his assumption about a common man on the street get confirmed by such a casual answer to a stupid question.

Re: # 66

ahmedmadani sahib,

..... i have no doubt that corruption was rampant during benazir's government, but it was no more or no less than in any other government ...... i have been hearing people moaning and complaining about corruption even as they slip a ten rupee note to a traffic cop, cheat in the matric exam, send a 'chit' to their friend to give their nephew a job, pay off the labor inspector and the excise inspector and the income tax officer .......... corruption, like kashmir, is in our blood .........

.... i am sure some of the 'cases' against bb are justified, but i am sure many of them are also politically motivated ..... otherwise, even in a country like pakistan, where the justice system has always been the hand maiden of the government in power, they would have been able to convict asif zardari of something in the last 10 years ...... so let's not even talk about that dirty hamam in which we are all naked .....

........ the best thing musharraf can do is legalize corruption and charge a 20% surcharge on black money that goes goes back to the treasury ! ..... then let's get back to the business of returning the country to democracy by letting nawaz sharif, altaph bhai, and all other chore uchakas to come back and contest the elections ......

.... the only people who should not be allowed to stand in the elections are those who pray five times a day (3-4 is okay) and unnecessarily fast during the month of shawal .... that should disqualify the jammat-i-islami but not baitullah mehsud and maulana fazloo - for that we will have to pass a law against bestiality and pederasty ......

So BB is the last hope!!! I think she has just used the situation cleverly to create this perception in both USA and also in some Government quarters.

How can she actually confront extremism and take Pakistan out of these troubled waters is difficult to understand. Firstly the argument that she never had real power and now she will have it. I pose a simple question, which kind of power you are talking about. Power to use army? I think President is already using it and in no way is he going to relinquish it. And if the situation could be solved through power than a military guy is a far better option.

Secondly any democratic leader is accountable to people, use of power does carry a risk of political backlash because the perception is that we are doing it for US interests and nothing else. I know that is not 100% true but it is largely true. And wesay bhee perceptions often matters more when it comes to political backlash. Let me tell you one thing here- people who were dancing in the streets were not dancing because they were thinking that with her arrival terrorism and Jihadism is going to vanish. It’s the euphoria of the daughter of Bhutto coming back. I have asked several supporters as to what do they expect from her. The remarkable answer was – nothing!! We just love Bhutto and she is his daughter.

Her support is built upon Bhutto cult not on her explicit desire to control extremism. For that matter her support mostly lies in rural areas of Sindh and Punjab and these areas do not face the problem of extremism. Extremism is largely concentrated in border area of NWFP and it is targeting mostly army and some cities not villages of Pakistan. Yes the blast took place in her procession but that was because the procession was in Karachi whereas people were from all over the country and at that point concentrated there.

The support is thus immaterial in tackling the actual problem. If you want to politically counter the problem, you need to have mass support in areas where the Jihadi culture is flourishing and also the areas which are being targeted. Both these areas are anti BB for different reasons and therefore her political support is insignificant.

Since the topic is extremism, I will not deliberate upon her feudal status and corruption record. I think that fact is being acknowledged by even those who are supporting her arrival.

Old leash for an older dog...

Backstage, U.S. Nurtured Pakistan Rivals’ Deal
By HELENE COOPER and MARK MAZZETTI

WASHINGTON, Oct. 19 — To lay the groundwork for Benazir Bhutto’s return to Pakistan, some of the highest ranking officials in the Bush administration lavished attention on her as they worked to broker a power-sharing arrangement between Ms. Bhutto and her longtime rival, President Pervez Musharraf.

But the violence that greeted Ms. Bhutto on her return after eight years in exile and the finger-pointing between her camp and General Musharraf’s after the attack on her motorcade on Thursday has raised questions about whether the tenuous deal that the United States helped midwife can survive.

Bush administration officials on Friday publicly played down the potential for a deepening rift between General Musharraf and Ms. Bhutto, pointing out that the opposition leader herself had praised the rescue efforts of Pakistan’s security forces after Thursday’s attack and that General Musharraf had called Ms. Bhutto to make sure she was safe after the blast.

On Friday, American officials acknowledged that there was no clear basis for confidence that the two leaders could work cooperatively. Now that Ms. Bhutto has returned to the country, they acknowledged that their control over events was limited, as Thursday’s bombing showed.

“There’s really not much left to say or do at this point,� one Bush administration official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly discuss American policy on Pakistan. “But there’s no clear indication that there is a foundation for both sides to work together cooperatively.�

Ms. Bhutto used her time in exile to nurture influential connections within Washington’s power corridors. Still, the Bush administration had long kept her at arm’s length, in large part out of deference to General Musharraf, who cast his lot with the White House after the Sept. 11 attacks.

Two years ago, Ms. Bhutto could not even get the State Department’s top official for South Asia to show up at a dinner party in her honor. (A desk officer in charge of Pakistan was sent instead.)

But in recent months that began to change. The American courtship of Ms. Bhutto included a private dinner and a jet ride with Zalmay Khalilzad, the American ambassador to the United Nations, and, over the last month, several telephone calls to Ms. Bhutto from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

“The Bush administration for a long time decided that the only telephone number in Pakistan they were going to call was Musharraf’s,� said Husain Haqqani, a former adviser to Ms. Bhutto and a professor of international relations at Boston University. “But Bhutto made it clear to them that her phone number was available to call anytime.�

In turning back to Ms. Bhutto, administration officials said they acted with reluctance, after General Musharraf’s own political missteps and the mounting opposition to his military government had weakened his grip on power and threatened to plunge Pakistan deeper into turmoil.

The administration concluded over the summer that a power-sharing deal with Ms. Bhutto might be the only way that General Musharraf could keep from being toppled.

It began quietly nurturing the accord, under which Ms. Bhutto’s party did not boycott General Musharraf’s election last month, and the president issued a decree granting Ms. Bhutto and others amnesty for recent corruption charges, opening the way for her return.

Administration officials say that Ms. Rice stepped up her personal involvement last month, when it seemed possible that General Musharraf’s other political nemesis, former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, would make his own bid to return to power, and upset the deal.

In addition to her conversations with Ms. Bhutto, Ms. Rice had several phone conversations with General Musharraf, including one in which she called him at 2 a.m. Pakistan time to urge him not to seize emergency powers.

John D. Negroponte, the deputy secretary of state, and Richard A. Boucher, the top State Department official for Pakistan, each went to Islamabad to press General Musharraf into the deal.

For Ms. Bhutto, years of relentless networking among America’s political, diplomatic and media elite also helped to vault her back into position to lead one of the United States’ most critical allies. “She is a networker par excellence, and she’s been keeping her contacts,� said Karl F. Inderfurth, the former assistant secretary of state for South Asia who dined across the table from her at a dinner party during her last swing through Washington, in September.

Ms. Bhutto was first introduced to America’s political power brokers in 1984, via the dinner party circuit. Peter Galbraith, whose family was friends with the Bhutto family and who at the time was on the staff of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, escorted the visiting Ms. Bhutto around Washington.

he also maintained her close ties to Washington during the Clinton administration, both while she was prime minister and afterward, when she was living in exile in London, Dubai and New York after being forced from power, accused of corruption. In 1998, Ms. Bhutto asked Mark Siegel, a well-connected Democratic Party operative, to set up a meeting for her at the White House with Hillary Rodham Clinton.

One close Bhutto friend described that meeting as “intimate and warm,� and as one that had touched, at Ms. Bhutto’s prompting, on Mrs. Clinton’s personal struggles in the midst of the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

Re: # 57 Romair will not be liked by many as he is putting things as there no massaging of facts and straight forward. People have gone tired of this drama/ farce and people will loose interest in heronite of this commedy /tragedy , General hero has already lost his appeal, only America will write how this commedy/tragedy concludes
There only two hopes
1. courts may disqualify general ( hero disqualification)
2. Courts may decide to put white wash corrouption (heroine in trouble)ordinance as not leagal as constiitution does not allow hiding of corrouption.
I do not know law related things but person like YLH needs to give his opinion from lawyer point of view.
If this happens then producers mrs Rice Bush may dismiss both hero and heroine.
Actually only party never ruled is religious party as USA is aftraid of them is wrong. Actually they can control even better look at conservative religious regimes of arab regime. If america becomes too tired of nondeliverance they will go to MMA and they can do better job of controlling borders. This bunch is sure not pretty but they get blamed for things , they never had power to call shots.
The fate of country is in hands of CJ and other judges.

Re: # 63

I agree.

BB was always under pressure of the khakhis. These khakhis are the real bastards responsible for the collapse of civilian structures. Corruption has been part and parcel of the bureaucracy since the days of zimmi-dari system- the zimmidar and his munsifs and the rest always pocketed a part of the public goods, taxes and penalties.

Corruption is a problem of bad governance, and can be fixed by removing the archaic colonial policies of suppression of citizens through inspector raj.

Removing BB and replacing with Mushy did not remove the inspector raj and the colonial structures of supression remain within governmental machinery.

If corruption is an issue then let it be fought out in the public through democracy- debate it and expose the corrupt publically but that does not warrant intervention by any military. Military has no locus standi to intervene. In fact these khakhis from ayub to zia to musharaff should be shot dead publically for treason.

If any one had the locus standi to depose BB - it was the public through elections. Only democracy can fix itself - because the machinery of democracy ensures that self correction takes place.
By constant intervention the khakhis collapsed good civilian democracy and replaced it with a monster that has ensured that mullahs become powerful.
Let BB come and I am sure these mullahs would be made to work for a living .
She would ensure that they remain within their limits and do turn into some who dreams of turning the world into a war between kafirs and momeens.
Let these mullahs do some good hard labour - they need to justify their place in this world through that and not through some lectures on dooms day.

bj,

... you are making more sense as you get older

1) you are right - bb is the only politician who has national appeal .... in the last election, out of the 6 seats in rawalpindi district (which is considered to be pml country and from where 10 corps rules the country) ppp won 2, dependents got two seats and pml (n&q) got one seat each ........ my man sheikh rashid ran as an independent ... sheikh rashid zindabad ! (it is impossible not to love that carmudgeon)

2) feudalism in pakistan is a state of mind - everyone suffers from it to some degree ..... the most common thing you hear on the streets is "oye, tu janda nahin, mein kaun aan!"...... some, like bb, carry it off with a little dignity while others, like raja romair, sound silly with their tall claims of 'personally' knowing people in high places and being privy to state secrets during their 'career' in the military ...... and then there is me - the feudal in me wants to smack the poor raja upside the head and then turn around and kick his khoti (it is an ethnic joke that raja sahib will understand)

3) ....... later, gotta go now

#57

Bulleya,

(1) The BeeB is from Sindh, but is truly a national politician. How many Pakistani leaders have such widespread appeal?

(2) If she is from a feudal class that is simply providence. She can not change that. In your (apparent) bitter dislike of that whole class, you are blinded to the obvious - that within feudals, like within any large group, there are a variety of qualities of people.

(3) Regarding corruption - I have talked earlier. It is an unpleasant but ever-present subcontinental fact of life. The only reason that the khakis may be less corrupt (and they are not immune, in fact) is because they have a guaranteed "job" - so less a "need" for it!

(4) The khakis - because of their training, will always be more efficient decisionmakers. It does not mean those are the right decisions. More important, it gives them no legitimacy - they are still usurpers of power (even benign ones like Musharraf) who have effectively destroyed the supreme law of the land - by vitiating its constitution! In a democratic setup, the decisions must be made by the people or their legitimate representatives - clumsily, hesitatingly, and all that. It is all a part of the process. It can not be imposed on the people.

(5) In the past, the BeeB never had REAL power - not even as much as the NS. She compromised with the khakis of back then - hoping that even a little bit of power was better than no power. She has realized that such power is dead-end. She needs to be a real decisionmaker in order to make a difference and improve the status of Pakistani population. The population still likes her, she has shown durability. What she did not have in the past - and now has aplenty, is the US support for promoting democracy in that country! The BeeB is showing more maturity and better resilience!

Regarding looks - you can have Imran Khan, I will retain the BeeB!

To each, his own! :)

chowk staff,

........ if you can't ban masadi, at least please ban romair for a week or so - he is ruining my breakfast !

...... i think you should ban anyone who changes his name and tries to start a new life, hoping that no one will notice that garbage stinks if you put it in fine china - there is something fishy about these people

Re: # 53

ib mian,

.... the reason that all suicide bombers are pashtoons is because they are better muslims than the rest of us ..

... i agree that the government has to go after the wild-eyed tribesmen who have been bothering the suris, the lodhis, the mughuls, the abdalis, the british and the sikhs since 846 AD...... however, it might be better to start by abolishing the fcr and extending the political parties act to the tribal areas - it is time we started treating these people as full pakistani citizens and getting rid of the sardars, maliks and their silly jirga system ...... i think it is patronizing and demeaning to treat these poor bastards differently than the average unwashed abdul in korangi ...... the tribal is three rungs down on the ladder of human evolution and he needs to be pulled up or else he will continue to pull you down ......

From the article in #59..as you sow, so shall you reap..(i.e. karma is a female of the canine species)

The militants contacted by the AP Friday refused to say whether they suspected Pakistan's intelligence agencies or military of involvement in the attack on Bhutto. But they said sympathizers within government structures do indeed help suicide bombers.

"In the Pakistani (secret) agencies and in the army there are so many people who are not secular, who are fundamentalists and will help a suicide bomber to carry out his job," said Saifullah, a former district leader of Hezb-ul-Mujahedeen. Saifullah uses just one name.

Several senior al-Qaida operatives have been arrested in homes owned or occupied by members of the Jamaat-e-Islami party, which was part of a six-party religious alliance that governed North West Frontier Province until the parliament was dissolved earlier this month.

Several militant groups have also been linked to Pakistan's secret service, including Hezb-ul-Mujahedeen, Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, Harakat-ul-Islam and Jaish-ul Mohammed. Pakistan has outlawed some of the groups but allowed them to resurface under other names.

Lashkar-e-Tayyaba was banned in 2002 but reconstituted as Jamaat-ud-Dawa, which was outlawed as a terrorist group by the United States. Pakistan, however, has refused to ban it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071019/ap_on_re_mi_ea/pakistan_militants

Pakistani militants share deep beliefs



By KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writer Fri Oct 19, 6:56 PM ET

PESHAWAR, Pakistan - Some are al-Qaida, some are Taliban and others are homegrown. But all of Pakistan's militants share a vision and unshakable beliefs that include a ban on a woman leading the nation and opposition to a close alliance with America.

Militants contacted by The Associated Press in Pakistan's North West Frontier Province Friday called Thursday's suicide attack revenge for the Pakistani military operations in the area and the support Bhutto and Musharraf have offered the United States in its fight against terrorism.

Mahmoud Al Hasan, a leader of Hezb-ul-Mujahedeen(yup..the indigenous kashmiri freedom fighters of the HuM), a militant group aligned to Pakistan's religious Jamaat-e-Islami party, condemned the bombing because of the civilians who were killed, but attacked both Bhutto and Musharraf as a "slaves" of the United States.

A businessman in the northwestern city of Peshawar who finances militant groups said the attack against Bhutto was well-coordinated and planned. The man, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of being arrested by authorities, said there are hundreds of would-be bombers in Pakistan who are ready to blow themselves up in such attacks.

SR# are you back in pakistan?

bjkumar #: interesting comments........i think people may be looking at bb from a distance.....a closer look may reveal something else.....

"They like her because her liberal credentials are better than any of her adversaries.."

benazir is a feudal....through and through.....she is the chief feudal head of pakistan......the second tier is feudal and pir (barring the odd jehangir badar and aitezaz ahsans).....feudals can never (i repeat never) be liberal......do take sometime to go the areas where these feudals and pirs rule......you will vomit with disgust at the way they treat fellow humans......liberalism doesn't mean going to oxford and denouncing mullahs and allowing dance parties and free flow of alcohol (all things that ppp leadership will do)....that is hamidmism, not liberalism.....liberalism means, above everything else, a respect for fellow human beings and a tolerance for those different from one's own self.......in terms of respect for humanity, believe me, even jamaat-i-islami is far more liberal than feudals....it, at least has some genuine time for the poor person across the street...not that i support either.....

"BB has a good record of reducing both terrorism and lowering tensions with India."

the person who was really ready to lower tensions with india was nawaz sharif.....he was ready to open trade and i believe was actually starting to sell sugar (?) to india.....he arranged vajpayee's visit etc.......only a businessman is going to improve relations with india.....take my word for it.......because only a businessman has a lot to gain from that.......feudals, maulvis and army have everything to lose......

musharraf has also reduced tensions with india.....moreso than anyone else.......but for different reasons......

benazir, along with maulana fazl, created the taliban.....it was bhutto who declared ahmedis non-muslims.....these guys flow with the wind.....

"Perhaps one reason her reign was so corrupt (if it was indeed more than that of others) is because the khakis ensured that corruption was the only thing she was allowed to do."

actually, nawaz sharif is more corrupt than her......she just got more publicity, becuase she plants her stash of cash outside pakistan, as she doesn't have an industrial base in pakistan.....while nawaz sharif invests his stash in pakistan.......however, she and zardari (and nawaz) are massively corrupt.....they are in some international who's who of corruption.....zardari was on a transparency internaitonal pamphlet front page.....

"She appears to have learnt from some of her past mistakes"

that is what everyone said last time.......a core feudal cannot learn......they have to totally change their lifestyle, which they will never do.....why does she, specifically, want to be pm for the third time......why not let someone else in her party be pm?........will she push land reforms?.......why doesn't she face the courts for corruption.......why not face the swiss courts, where she has been convicted?.........why do under-hand deals to make kosher the massive wealth outside pakistan?

if she is truly courageous, she should march into swiss courts and face them......anyone can make a speech in karachi......make one in a zurich court room and i will be impressed......after all swiss courts aren't politically motivated, are they?

"she still retains her appeal to the aam awaam, as is clear from her welcome."

yes, this is true.......she like all major politicians has a votebase.......but look at the number of people who hate her......just on this site.......there are far more who hate her and think she has destroyed pakistan......

all feudals and pir based political parties will have a large votebase......since they control the votebase......they own the votebase......it consists of very poor people who have no opportunities.......however, until musharraf came along, she had completely lost the urban edeucated free votebase......there wasn't a city in pakistan, where ppp could win......mqm owned karachi, nawaz owned lahore and pindi.......anp owned peshawar....

"is probably better-looking than all of her competition combined..."

yes, this is true........though imran khan would be at the top if we look at both genders......i went to her book signing in dubai, and she was looking quite good for a lady in her 50s.......

benazir is a unique lady......with a hell of a lot of guts and leadership qualities......the only women in the islamic world and perhaps in south asia, who scares the hell out of every man in pakistan - including generals, pirs, feudals, badmashes etc.....i have seen big feudals and pirs, personally, get scared to death, when she calls.....

she (like her father) had everything going for her......yet she blew it.......she is only in it for power......for personal power......the power of being a prime minister and not being an ordinary citizen.......

on top of it, unlike her father she is massively corrupt (so power and money)........

i am convinced that there are two groups of people who can never create progress in pakistan........maulvis and feudals.......it doesn't matter what you dress them up as - be they a good looking westernized lady or a good looking westernized maulvi.......

the return of benzir - part III - is going to be hell for pakistan......take my word.....i would still take musharraf over her.......though he is a lost case, now also......

on the other hand, ppp, without benazir, would be quite acceptable......it has some good solid genuinely progressive people......

#34 Posted by bulleya on October 20, 2007 2:37:03 am


.....one has to be amazed at the forgiving nature of pakistanis


you've served out more whoppers than BK but you still forgave yourself and resumed your role as the poohbah of geopolitics.

so pakis are forgiving and forgetful...

#37 Posted by SR on October 20, 2007 3:12:32 am


quickly managed to encourage national amnesia


You believed what you wanted to believe and forgot what you wanted to forget. Nobody can make anyone forget anything. or delude them into believing something that isn't true.

#53 IB - you cant write a post without some ethnic angle to it, and you consider yourself "normal"?? indivduals like you are sick. and after may 12 mqm is hardly in a position to be considered as any better than the criminals who attacked the peaceful crowd yesterday.

How come all suicide bombers are Pashtoons? (except for one - on mullana turabi - was a Burmese)

The government should immediately start an offensive in tribal areas - but it's never too late. There is a serious cultural and religious identity problem in Pashtoons - and that needs to be addressed as well.

Benzair Bhootani (Salims word) would prove to be a good partner to Mushraff , MQM and normal Pakistanis because she’s a natural alley against religious extremists and nut-cases like urstruly.

Re: # 42

bj,

.... finally! .... a post by you that i fully agree with - specially #6 ....

.... like i said before, bb is the ony queen we have in the lousy hand of cards that is full of jokers and knaves ...... and she has balls! ...... i hear all the corruption charges against her and all that but, to be honest, i don't think her government was any more corrupt than any other - it was just more hyped and asif zardari didn't help with is 'badmash' looks and reputation ..... hopefully he will stay out of the limelight this time around ........ the biggest problem with ppp is that it won't be able to survive without her ...

#29 Posted by masadi on October 20, 2007 12:56:25 am


In #28 read

as


you don't need to post corrections.

Most of us read masadi's posts as

US elite US elite US elite US elite

anyway...

"Painting of peacock is terrible, even the name peacock has sexual connotations, "

Sunnat itself has dreadful sexual connotations.
Without mutilation of the sexual organs the 'covenant' between the Al-Lah and his slave subject is not considered true!!!
Ask a true Sunni if he can hold on to his faith without the fear of Al-lah imprinted in the deepest of his psyche through that dreadful mutilation of his private parts.

It is like the branding of sheeps with red hot iron to imprint the icon of ownership.

Re: # 48

1. That is not a painting of peacock - but an idol of peacock a well known bird from indian sub continent.

2. The image is of a chaturbhuj god Vishnu. Shows the hindu past of persian civilization.

3. That kabba stone is a Saligram - which is black , shining surfaced fossil that is considered sacred for vaishnavas. Many shiva linga are also made of shaligram. Let there be a test of that stone and it would certainly reveal itself to be a shaligram.

4. If these momeens consider Haj as a pillor of Islam then their kissing of this black stone is one of the biggest contradictions within Islam itself and is in-consistent with the rest of the pillors.

Laddu 46,

That does not prove anything, in pre-islamic age there were idol worshippers in arabia, iran etc and all those were demoslished and put into kaba and covered with black concrete, and that is the direction in which teh muslims of today worship. Obviously the mosque in iran is blasphemous and should be demolished.

Painting of peacock is terrible, even the name peacock has sexual connotations, in islam no living things should be painted and that is why islamic art is reduced to caligraphy.

What are the expectations

So many are happy that benazir is back and of course there are those who do not want her back.

For the romairs of pakistan, mushy is the best, thee economy is booming, there are hardly any poor in pakistan...

How about the others, can there be any pakistani hoping for the following

..More govt schools and increase in literacy

..more hospitals..

..less crime in teh streets of pakistan

..rediction in corruption,...

..increased cooperation with the india


Sorry to disappoint you the civilised pakistanis who expect any of the above

..beacuse there is no money to do any of teh social improvements

..corruption is so engrained in teh pak society.. now it is all chia pani ka paisa

..there can be no raproachment with india..because then the amry will be well and truly to rule the pakis,...waziristan is gone, if enemity with india is also reduced then why teh pak army..

So my dear pakistanis, you even do not have anything to hope for...no idea of what should be changed..it is another form of failed state..and it makes no difference who rules, failed is a failed stste charecterised by no rule of law.

how to post an image???

Any way , there is the image from the Mashhad mosque in Iran



http://www.salagram.net/VWH-iranvish.jpg

The above photograph shows the detail of the ceiling, decorated in multicolored majolica, of the Mashhad MOSQUE in Iran. Look to the left of the photograph directly underneath the leftmost peacock's feet and you will suddenly notice the unmistakeable statue of Shree Vishnu Bhagvan seated in lotus pose with Shankh and lotus in his hands. This is clear hard evidence of the fact that many of the mosques in Islamic countries such as Iran were originally Vedic Temples. This can be supported by the fact that the peacock is a bird indigenous to India and central to Hindu religious iconology. The peacock is not native to Iran nor is the use of iconography encouraged by Islam. Figurative sculpture especially is forbidden in Islam as this amounts to idolatory. In addition please observe the typically Hindu stylized lotus pattern background upon which the sculpture of Shree Vishnu is superimposed in relief. One must logically conclude that this photograph is visual evidence of the Vedic Origin of the Mosque in Mashhad, Iran.

Re: # 41

jay,

there are more secrets in store for all of us to understand.

If your look at the great mosque in Shia Iran you would be surprised to find the sculpures of chaturbhuj Shri Vishnu on the upper walls of that mosque.

It still remains intact out of providence and is a sign of the hindu past of ancient Persians and Arabs.

My simple reasons for favoring Ms. Bhutto:

(1) Many Indians like her in the same way that many Pakistanis like Laloo Yadav – IN SPITE OF the past corruption. They like her because her liberal credentials are better than any of her adversaries – like Laloo’s secular credentials. (Many Biharis would flip the same argument and say – “have you LIVED under a Laloo regime?�, and that is fully understandable.)

(2) Whenever given even a little bit of REAL power, the BB has a good record of reducing both terrorism and lowering tensions with India. She accomplished a lot of that in the late eighties by withdrawing armed support that was then being provided by Pakistan to the “Khalistanis� and that movement immediately fizzled out.

(3) Perhaps one reason her reign was so corrupt (if it was indeed more than that of others) is because the khakis ensured that corruption was the only thing she was allowed to do. They maintained control of powers in every other way.

(4) Whatever the BeeB’s faults – she appears to have paid a heavy price, even personal price for those faults. She appears to have learnt from some of her past mistakes, she appears to have become more careful and she appears to watch her words more. Contrast all of that with her adversaries.

(5) After so many years of exile – she still retains her appeal to the aam awaam, as is clear from her welcome. ALL political leaders bask in adulation – that is what they are all about – so if she does the same, it should not be held against her.

(6) Last but not the least, the BeeB – in spite of those years now beginning to accumulate – is probably better-looking than all of her competition combined – the Mushy included (with or without uniform)!

Laddu, 39,

So what are you telling, the muslims should be called ahmadi hindus or what

The poor little woman, benazir says that she is ready to fight terrorism. No madam, you are not going to do that simply because there is no one in pakistan who can do that.

The army still has 300 soldiers captive by the taliban. At last the truth is out, the so called 80,000 pak troops on the afghna boreder to prevent the taliban moving to afghanistan are hiding in their barracks, never daring to venture out.

Benzir madam, take it from me, jayp, the terrorists are going to take over pakistan. The pak troops have surrendred wziristan to the terrorists, teh pak troops will be withdrawn, and they will concentrate on ruling what is left of pakistan.

Benazir, you can be the prime minister, hoarde a few more millions outside of pakistan so that it will help you in the next exile, that is if you manage not to go out and get bombed again.

In teh mean time, do not mention AQ Kahan and his interview with the americans.

Sorry mullah-philosopher ji your knowledge of idolator's philosophy is nothing more than what you read in your chavanni tafsirs of your maulanas that you picked up from the streets of hira mandi.

Perhaps you need to drink some camel mutra as prescribed by your prophet in order to become a wise momeen. You are perhaps ignorant because one of the biggest linga is in the kabba - the sanga awestha or the black stone . Remember, if your Al-Lah comes to know that the prophet and his momeen followrs were actually kissing the biggest linga and calling it one of the PILLARS of Islam- then be sure to experience the fires of his torture cell called jahannum. Are you sure if the Prophet is not in his jahannum??


Here is some thing to read and think -

"Since Eed means worship and Griha means ‘house’, the Islamic word Idgah signifies a ‘House of worship’ which is the exact Sanskrit connotation of the term. Similarly the word ‘Namaz’ derives from two Sanskrit roots ‘Nama’ and ‘Yajna’ (NAMa yAJna) meaning bowing and worshipping.

Vedic descriptions about the moon, the different stellar constellations and the creation of the universe have been incorporated from the Vedas in Koran part 1 chapter 2, stanza 113, 114, 115, and 158, 189, chapter 9, stanza 37 and chapter 10, stanzas 4 to 7.

Recital of the Namaz five times a day owes its origin to the Vedic injunction of Panchmahayagna (five daily worship- Panch-Maha-Yagna) which is part of the daily Vedic ritual prescribed for all individuals.

Muslims are enjoined cleanliness of five parts of the body before commencing prayers. This derives from the Vedic injuction ‘Shareer Shydhyartham Panchanga Nyasah’.

Four months of the year are regarded as very sacred in Islamic custom. The devout are enjoined to abstain from plunder and other evil deeds during that period. This originates in the Chaturmasa i.e., the four-month period of special vows and austerities in Hindu tradition. Shabibarat is the corrupt form of Shiva Vrat and Shiva Ratra. Since the Kaaba has been an important centre of Shiva (Siva) worship from times immemorial, the Shivaratri festival used to be celebrated there with great gusto. It is that festival which is signified by the Islamic word Shabibarat.

Encyclopaedias tell us that there are inscriptions on the side of the Kaaba walls. What they are, no body has been allowed to study, according to the correspondence I had with an American scholar of Arabic. But according to hearsay at least some of those inscriptions are in Sanskrit, and some of them are stanzas from the Bhagavad Gita.

According to extant Islamic records, Indian merchants had settled in Arabia, particularly in Yemen, and their life and manners deeply influenced those who came in touch with them. At Ubla there was a large number of Indian settlements. This shows that Indians were in Arabia and Yemen in sufficient strength and commanding position to be able to influence the local people. This could not be possible unless they belonged to the ruling class.

It is mentioned in the Abadis i.e., the authentic traditions of Prophet Mohammad compiled by Imam Bukhari that the Indian tribe of Jats had settled in Arabia before Prophet Mohammad’s times. Once when Hazrat Ayesha, wife of the Prophet, was taken ill, her nephew sent for a Jat physician for her treatment. This proves that Indians enjoyed a high and esteemed status in Arabia. Such a status could not be theirs unless they were the rulers. Bukhari also tells us that an Indian Raja (king) sent a jar of ginger pickles to the Prophet. This shows that the Indian Jat Raja ruled an adjacent area so as to be in a position to send such an insignificant present as ginger pickles. The Prophet is said to have so highly relished it as to have told his colleagues also to partake of it. These references show that even during Prophet Mohammad’s times Indians retained their influential role in Arabia, which was a dwindling legacy from Vikramaditya’s times.

The Islamic term ‘Eed-ul-Fitr’ derives from the ‘Eed of Piters’ that is worship of forefathers in Sanskrit tradition. In India, Hindus commemorate their ancestors during the Pitr-Paksha that is the fortnight reserved for their remembrance. The very same is the significance of ‘Eed-ul-Fitr’ (worship of forefathers).

The Islamic practice of observing the moon rise before deciding on celebrating the occasion derives from the Hindu custom of breaking fast on Sankranti and Vinayaki Chaturthi only after sighting the moon.

Barah Vafat, the Muslim festival for commemorating those dead in battle or by weapons, derives from a similar Sanskrit tradition because in Sanskrit ‘Phiphaut’ is ‘death’. Hindus observe Chayal Chaturdashi in memory of those who have died in battle.

The word Arabia is itself the abbreviation of a Sanskrit word. The original word is ‘Arabasthan’. Since Prakrit ‘B’ is Sanskrit ‘V’ the original Sanskrit name of the land is ‘Arvasthan’. ‘Arva’ in Sanskrit means a horse. Arvasthan signifies a land of horses., and as well all know, Arabia is famous for its horses.

This discovery changes the entire complexion of the history of ancient India. Firstly we may have to revise our concepts about the king who had the largest empire in history. It could be that the expanse of king Vikramaditya’s empire was greater than that of all others. Secondly, the idea that the Indian empire spread only to the east and not in the west beyond say, Afghanisthan may have to be abandoned. Thirdly the effeminate and pathetic belief that India, unlike any other country in the world could by some age spread her benign and beatific cultural influence, language, customs, manners and education over distant lands without militarily conquering them is baseless. India did conquer all those countries physically wherever traces of its culture and language are still extant and the region extended from Bali island in the south Pacific to the Baltic in Northern Europe and from Korea to Kaaba. The only difference was that while Indian rulers identified themselves with the local population and established welfare states, Moghuls and others who ruled conquered lands perpetuated untold atrocities over the vanquished.

‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ tells us that a pan-Arabic poetic symposium used to be held in Mecca at the annual Okaj fair in pre-Islamic times. All leading poets used to participate in it.

Poems considered best were awarded prizes. The best-engraved on gold plate were hung inside the temple. Others etched on camel or goatskin were hung outside. Thus for thousands of years the Kaaba was the treasure house of the best Arabian poetic thought inspired by the Indian Vedic tradition.

That tradition being of immemorial antiquity many poetic compositions were engraved and hung inside and outside on the walls of the Kaaba. But most of the poems got lost and destroyed during the storming of the Kaaba by Prophet Mohammad’s troops. The Prophet’s court poet, Hassan-bin-Sawik, who was among the invaders, captured some of the treasured poems and dumped the gold plate on which they were inscribed in his own home. Sawik’s grandson, hoping to earn a reward carried those gold plates to Khalif’s court where he met the well-known Arab scholar Abu Amir Asamai. The latter received from the bearer five gold plates and 16 leather sheets with the prize-winning poems engraved on them. The bearer was sent away happy bestowed with a good reward.

On the five gold plates were inscribed verses by ancient Arab poets like Labi Baynay, Akhatab-bin-Turfa and Jarrham Bintoi. That discovery made Harun-al-Rashid order Abu Amir to compile a collection of all earlier compositions. One of the compositions in the collection is a tribute in verse paid by Jarrham Bintoi, a renowned Arab poet, to king Vikramaditya. Bintoi who lived 165 years before Prophet Mohammad had received the highest award for the best poetic compositions for three years in succession in the pan-Arabic symposiums held in Mecca every year. All those three poems of Bintoi adjudged best were hung inside the Kaaba temple, inscribed on gold plates. One of these constituted an unreserved tribute to King Vikramaditya for his paternal and filial rule over Arabia. That has already been quoted above.

Pre-Islamic Arabian poet Bintoi’s tribute to king Vikramaditya is a decisive evidence that it was king Vikramaditya who first conquered the Arabian Peninsula and made it a part of the Indian Empire. This explains why starting from India towards the west we have all Sanskrit names like Afghanisthan (now Afghanistan), Baluchisthan, Kurdisthan, Tajikiathan, Uzbekisthan, Iran, Sivisthan, Iraq, Arvasthan, Turkesthan (Turkmenisthan) etc.

Historians have blundered in not giving due weight to the evidence provided by Sanskrit names pervading over the entire west Asian region. Let us take a contemporary instance. Why did a part of India get named Nagaland even after the end of British rule over India? After all historical traces are wiped out of human memory, will a future age historian be wrong if he concludes from the name Nagaland that the British or some English speaking power must have ruled over India? Why is Portuguese spoken in Goa (part of India), and French in Pondichery (part of India), and both French and English in Canada? Is it not because those people ruled over the territories where their languages are spoken? Can we not then justly conclude that wherever traces of Sanskrit names and traditions exist Indians once held sway? It is unfortunate that this important piece of decisive evidence has been ignored all these centuries.

Another question which should have presented itself to historians for consideration is how could it be that Indian empires could extend in the east as far as Korea and Japan, while not being able to make headway beyond Afghanisthan? In fact land campaigns are much easier to conduct than by sea. It was the Indians who ruled the entire West Asian region from Karachi to Hedjaz and who gave Sanskrit names to those lands and the towns therein, introduce their pantheon of the fire-worship, imparted education and established law and order.

It may be that Arabia itself was not part of the Indian empire until king Vikrama , since Bintoi says that it was king Vikrama who for the first time brought about a radical change in the social, cultural and political life of Arabia. It may be that the whole of West Asia except Arabia was under Indian rule before Vikrama. The latter added Arabia too to the Indian Empire. Or as a remote possibility it could be that king Vikramaditya himself conducted a series of brilliant campaigns annexing to his empire the vast region between Afghanisthan and Hedjaz."

"#34 Posted by bulleya on October 20, 2007 2:37:03 am
.....one has to be amazed at the forgiving nature of pakistanis, on this site.....benazir has thoroughly destroyed pakistan; not once, but twice.....the corruption cases against her are so long and wide that the swiss and spanish judiciary will be in shock when they are withdrawn......

.......as for her democratic credentials - she is the lifetime chairperson of her political party, and makes all policies single-handedly......"


Bulleya this is not new the pakistani people have done it in the past when a whore called ZAB offered them her breast for succor after their fight they didnt look at what he wanted in return or how his own machinations had led to that situation but instead thought of that whore as their mother. Actually calling him whore is an insult to the whores who have a milion times more honor and honesty than him

What can you expect from the child of such swine. He is famed to have come out after having had sex with Benazir's mother and announcing to a room ful of his cronies that "he was done with the bitch and that anyone else could have his turn"

Now Pakistanis are doing the same with his bitch daughter who has offered them her breast, they care not in their craze what she did in the past, or how she has engineered this situation or why she has come back.

That is why the pakistani people deserve their leaders, they will have to spend a thousand years in purgatory

Re: # 5 ["...... stop being so melodramatic ! .... in another week or so most pakis will forget about this ...we are a very resilient (dheet) people ..."

Hamid ji

The word is not dheet but, more properly, bay-gharat or bay-sharam... You are correct about the Paki short memory. The Lal Masjid is already a distant memory. But both of these are just small events, a few hundred dead here and there. If remember clearly, how that Nutfa-i-Haram, Qaid-i-Awam quickly managed to encourage national amnesia about the fiasco in Bangal, when the ignominious na-Pak fauj got the dog-shit beaten out of it. Within months no one was even talking about it any more.

As for melodramma, well, that is our trade-mark. We are Pakis and we loooooove dramma. Just look at the Brothel Bitch as she dismounts her Pegasus, passing under the Quran, tasbeeh in hand, crocodile tears in the eyes.

What I lamented was a return to "sham democracy" after eight years of "sham martial law" ... ('Auntie' Mubashir Hussain, ZAB's finance minister, calls it "Martial Law of the Hijhrahs") ... back to square zero. It's like "Wheels of the bus go round and round, round and round, all through the Town..."

And then Ras bhai chimes in and admonishes me to "...please cut back on the strong stuff..."

Phuckistan is well and truly phucked.

I'd better get off line and go take a walk on trail 3 of the Margalla Hills. The weather is Islamabad is the only thing that is beautiful today.

...SR

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 33

"n.what a great shame.chee chee...."

sorry mullah ji .... she is now gong to deflate your 'philosophical' dreams of houries in the jannah!!

.....one has to be amazed at the forgiving nature of pakistanis, on this site.....benazir has thoroughly destroyed pakistan; not once, but twice.....the corruption cases against her are so long and wide that the swiss and spanish judiciary will be in shock when they are withdrawn......

.......as for her democratic credentials - she is the lifetime chairperson of her political party, and makes all policies single-handedly......

......i suppose all it takes is to make a few noises against mullahs and one becomes kosher again......that has to be the height of fanaticism......even maulvis don't follow their leaders so fanatically......

.......there are plenty of people in ppp who can lead it.....far better than bb......however, they will never get the chance, as long as there are pakistanis who are ready to forgive every sin of bb.......

.......but as they say, be careful what you wish for; just take a look at the category of individuals who are her key advisors - just take a look at who was on the truck with her, i.e. her top leadership:

it was benazir (a huge feudal), amin fahim (a feudal and a big heridatory pir, who has four sisters married to the quran), shah mehmood qureshi (another pir from the bahauddin zakaria clan? of south punjab), abida hussein (a pir, along with her husband and feudal, who was in pml(q) and recently joined ppp, when she lost the election to her nephew, faisal saleh - interestingly faisal quit the ppp and joined pml(q), after winning the election!!), yusuf raza gilan (pir of south punjab of gilani clan)......

out of all the of the above, only gilani is a credible person.....he has given up his piri-faqiri and lives in lahore......he was sent to jail for four and a half years, on false charges, by musharraf.....i am quite sure, he must be extremely unhappy over the current deal of bb-musharraf....

.....this is the top ppp leadership......useless pirs and feudals.......if anyone hasn't seen these pirs in operation, i suggest you do so.......they make the village mullah look like a saint.....these pirs have tens of thousands of disciples in their constituencies, who do all kinds of strange things.....they consider these pirs to be the descendents of prophet muhammad.......their disciples rub the dirt these guys walk on, on their bodies....they touch their feet.......they even give away their lands to them......it is quite pathetic.......these guys in turn use this.......they never work their whole life, and just enjoy themselves in politics......

.......ppp has a much better leadership available........people like aitezaz ahsan......these are the guys who will come to the top, if bb goes.......

unfortunately, pakistanis seem hell-bent on putting themselves through the same torture.......so if and when bb comes back, we have no one to blame but ourselves (specially the educated crowd).....rest assured her and her husband will, once again, be the bonnie and clyde of pakistan......

after which there will be another martial law......which will be welcomed by the people, and the cycle will continue.....bb has had her two chances.....time for someone else........anyone else......

i wish Benazir had been killed in this attack. Untill she is alive there is a chance of pakistani people being ruled by a woman once again.what a great shame.chee chee....

(untill she is alive...i support 8th ammendment and the president's right to dissolve assemblies....at least he would be 'one degree over the Prime Minister'.

here is another comment -

"I think the bomb was planted by Bhutto`s own people,she must have known,its a great plan! To make her get more support,to make Musharaf look bad&leave athird finger pointing anywhere,from islamists to Talibanis or even Kashmiri`s.What a plan?

ali mustafa, hamar, Norway "

Re: # 18

bjkumar,

Totally agree with your assessment with one exception, BB has yet to prove her democratic credentials through party and state politics. Having said that, please accept my thanks for putting things in perspective.

Here is what a Paki said :

"If Benazir had a warning of these attacks (as she is claiming she had), why she did not delayed her arrival to Pakistan ? Why she did not take the option to fly to the venu on Helicopter when she was offered that? and why did she ignored the request by official to move her convoy faster?. Just because she wanted a huge welcome rally, she made so many people lost their lives. If she was sincere to her followers, she would have done anything to save their lives not putting them in dander.

Rehan Khan, NY, USA "

This what a european guy said:

"Condemning Benazir Bhutto for the fact that someone else sanctioned the murder of scores of civilians, in an attempt to kill her, is the logic of fools.

Andrew Sz, Budapest "

Indeed , Paki Islam is supreme!!

In #28 read "information about the so-called threats to her were well publicized and then the even occured on target and on time.."

as

information about the so-called threats to her were well publicized and then the event occured on target and on time

It is no wonder that tahmed would default to the offical American position of supporting BB, is there any surprise, and that he would talk the "democracy" talk when decisions about the BB and Musharraf have been already made in the corridors of power to the exclusion of the people of Pakistan? Not to mention the unnecessary carnage of the people of Pakistan in the rally by just these power brokers designed to build this legitimacy, information about the so-called threats to her were well publicized and then the even occured on target and on time- a thorough and complete inside job, once again butchering the people of Pakistan for the sake of the Americans and their occupation force (the Pak Army). What is most outrageous in this peon of the West (tahmed's) comments is that he compares the miserable BB, the corrupt, anti-people, dealer with the military and the Americans to the "finest hour" of ZAB, the friend of the people and the only true leader we have had...

I went to the BBC and found a lot of PAkistanis and muslims blaming BB for what happened- it is like the "uncovered meat" analogy of the mullahs that seeks to blame the victims for their assault!!!

No wonder, Pakistani mullah Islam is the most wonderful ideology of the world!!

Allah hu!!

Re: # 18

Very interesting observation.

BB is for the time being the best bet against the mullah take over of Paki land. She has also been forth right in stating her opposition to the mullahs turning jehadism into a big money spinning mafiaso business.

We all support her because the mullah Islam is the defacto fascistic ideology of the century that all the non muslims have to confront!!!

Re: # 21 I think both of you have become EMOTIONAL. Good speech is worth nothing when not enforced by good deeds. Why people should follow BB or general as they are not doing good deeds and moral actions. What was use of big lecture by Bhutto senior after loosing E.Pakistan , it did not come by his lecture.
I think both you are in state of ditributing seets when general became overlord of Land. Mr. Hamid is sane man as he said after few days all magic you are feeling will be gone. Both are not talking about real thing Kashmir. I can understand army does not want to talk. I have sympathy and understanding for them . They become cynical or pragmatic about K war. What poor farm land from some martial district can expect from war ? He hopes just he will back in one peace back he does not get glory. But leaders have to force reluctant this peasant army young man to inspire for war and win. I feel not Kashimiri people are orphoned there is not even talking support. This K is centralised problem and no body is saying any thing and india appeasement on full scale and uneven balancre of trade is going on. Only dark people of South africa has shown some back bone by deciding to play matches, thanks mr. Mandela. This is going to great matches , Peoples games. I wonder Mr. Masadi is "banned" by some selfinterested people. I did not see him contribting . may usual trick of banning him.

Re: # 13 Romair has correctly stated we are getting some money from American elites but money is not free as country is burning at both ends slowly. But we are not helpless victim in crime. We are paid in foreign currency and armt. No body give F-16 just for getting money. Money is chain used by western elites to rope country and line as junior partner and lauching pad for west elites war on terror which is war on Muslims in reality. As all people know we are being paid money to shed muslim blood and paid in blood money. This is tainted money. Its like cat he sees butter but not trap. Once you take bribe to shed innocent muslim blood you are trapped by elites and there is no escape. So no democracy. We will not get peace till war on terror stops. I ahve agreed with analysis by Masadi and Romair. I like their straight forward think, there is no intelluctual paralysis by too much analysis. Some people analyse too much and miss points. Good day bye

RE: #8 hamidm2

I cannot afford the Blue but some fine California Merlot

the next time you are in California...

I never thought that I'd see the day BUT:

tahmed32 #19 # 21 AMEEN !!!!


RE: bjkumar Bhayya #18

I could not have said it better...

Ras

Ras

#20 bjkumar: Too early to tell, but signs are hopeful. Musharraf knows that he needs to broaden his political base if he is to have any chance of survival. BB made a great speech today, reminded me of her father's finest hour (after the fall of dhaka, when he did a great job of lifting the spirits of a beaten nation).

#19 Tahmed32

I agree. The BeeB is a more mature politician now. One hopes that she will no more play a kathputli role in the hands of the khakis.

#18 bjkumar: I was never a fan of BB - until today!! She has put her neck on the line for the cause of democracy, as yesterday's terrible events showed. She truly shone today, as she made a passionate speech calling for giving power back to its rightful owners, namely the people of Pakistan. May God protect her, and may she indeed prove to have turned into a new leaf and help restore democracy in Pakistan.

The “profound� wisdom of chowk Pakistanis can leave one wordless!

The facts of the matter are rather simple.

(1) BB’s past is not an issue here. Like the Laloo (a figure more popular in Pakistan than his native Bihar), there are charges of corruption against her. Well, you supposedly have an “independent� judiciary – use the judiciary to deal with the allegations. If your system does not work – fix the system, do not try to “do the job yourself� – then your approach is no different from a jihadi!

(2) One must wonder why so many chowkwalis are so viciously attacking the BB – especially since the BB is the only person (out of the current lot) who even seems to have at least shades of democratic thoughts about her – and these ladies have nobody better to suggest in her place.

(3) The people who attacked the procession are the real culprits. If the khakis were complicit, then they are equally to blame. Blaming BB is totally dishonest – and no different from blaming a rape victim for being there - “Usne itna bhaDakdar kapDa kyun pehna?!�

(4) From the Bumbaiwali to the Scout, the Neembu, the Bridge, the Sobia, and the Zeena are all busy playing Monday morning quarterbacking – “why did she have the juloos?� This is one of the most asinine statements I have ever heard. Why not answer honestly the very simple question – why did 1.5 million people line up that route? The answer is simple – BB wanted to exercise her freedom – and those people wished to do the same – in a democracy, one has the right to assemble. If you do not do so because of coercion, you do not have that freedom – “true� democracy or otherwise, and then you have allowed the bad guys to win!

I sometimes think that Pakistan is backward because many of its women are primitive in mindset – especially those who consider themselves “educated� but are more retrogressive than the least literate of village ladies! Unfortunately, most of them have decided to permanently park themselves in the chowk corridors!

So between BB and the general, will the elections (if and when they are held) produce another leader by default who is the best of the worst and not really good enough? If so,that is a pity,because the people of Pakistan and any other country for that matter, deserves better.

Re: # 12

arjun,

.. please do me a favor and pull out romair's old t-shirt post ... that might shut him up for a while ......

thank you and best regards

Re: # 13

ahmedmadani sahib,

.... i hear you, but you have to play with the hand you are dealt ..... so far the only queens and kings we have in this lousy hand are bb and the general .... other than that you have jokers and knaves like imran khan and the qazi ...... unless, of course, you have an ace up your sleeve .......

#1 Posted by neembu on October 19, 2007 1:25:51 pm


the bombings do not bode well.


really? bombings don't bode well?

profound..

Re: # 4 Romair.... You have thoughtful comment.
I second you over long term religious parties will get benefit as people are not swayed and fooled as deal is transperant between military ruler and Mrs. Bhutto you scratch my back and will return favors. On human level most depressed will PPP ground workers , they went and kept all faith and what they got. BB leadership will loose lustre fast as people do not like people leading them of so low character to just get personal benefits and throw down followers to gutter. It saddens people like me as all this Tamasha and farce. General went "april fool election" as a short cut and it proved strategic blunder, mistakes can be be corrected not strategic blunders. He proved talkative and fast but not intelligent and subtle. I hope you are wrong and general and BB work for betterment. May be people who distributed sweets after coup or hundreds of thousand welcoming BB ( total corroupt person), NRO etc deserve what they are going to get. One can not blame general or BB as may be they understand moral fiber and caliber of people who act as children. I think corrouption will kill pakistan internally as cancer has now reached at head at top and people are happy for that. It is hard think how things can better when only common denominator is moral corrouption amoung leading people of nation.I remember a german saying " If money is lost nothing is lost, if health is lost something is lost and if moral Character is lost then everything is lost".
Last hope is general is disqualified that will be best. Even if general declares marshall law still better than corroupt compromising democracy. Hardship of marshall law over long term will throw up better moral leadership, this corroupt democracy will throw up pigs. Some times one wonders all this 60 years of journey is from something to nothing. I honestly feel BB and general not much better than dakoos and terrorists in Karachi who loot and rob people by holding TT pistols to their heads.Things are fine means they are not fine.
Let us hope technical disqualifications of general stops his low moral games.
Some how I feel things will go against people of pakistan, general will be okeyed as pakistan never gets breaks only shafts.

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bhaand u are the biggest moron of all to continue supporting the conservatives after they proved oevr the last 7 years that they are the undisputed kings of chutyap

teray bhejey mey kya gobar bhara hai?

Re: # 9

borvili,

.... as the wise dr shankar said: next time you have gas, blame someone other than america and bush for your flatulence ......

this class 1 chutya bush, and his company of idiots, rumsfield, cheney and the assorted conservative jokers have made a complete mess of afghanistan and iraq

how stupid the american people are can be estimated from their relection of such incompetent nincompoops

the soney pe suhaga would be relection of a conservative admin next year.

Re: # 6

ras mian,

.... even though i am not a big admirer of benazir, it is true that ppp is the only real political party in pakistan ...... the rest of them are a bunch of opportunistic neophytes - other than the murderous jamaat-i-islami, which should be banned and its leaders sent to guantanamo ....... the ppp worker is a true jiyala and i know many who have stood by their party over the last forty years regardless of all the ups and downs for no obvious personal gain (a friend of mine who works eighty hours a week running a small business in canada, actually went with his family to welcome benazir back to pakistan - a true jiyala!) ....... unfortunately, i am not sure the party can survive without benazir ....

..... given the choices, i think most sane pakistanis, regardles of their political affiliations, would hope that this benazir-musharraf thing works out ...... if not, we might be in for some tough times .....

.... i wish my garain, sheikh rashid, would have a change of heart and join bb so that i could vote for both of them ......

sheikh rashid zindabad !
bb zindabad !
musharraf, go home ... but zindabad until he does

p.s. every time i see someone with a beard i feel like slapping him ....... i must go and see a shrink (not shankar)

This whole shit has happened because Bush and company didnot sort out afghanistan before entering Iraq, if they had only invested some of their money in the nation building they so despise Afghanistan would be midway on the road to recovery by now. Al Gore knew the importance of nation building

How high a high price the world has had to pay for the florida fraud

Timely and accurate article Dilawar,

SR #2 please cut back on the strong stuff..

hamidm & ahmedmadaani both continue to make sense...

and bulleya, Musharraf and BB are not competing...

This attack was carried out to scare the PPP supporters

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20071019/wl_time/whoisbehindtheattackonbhutto

Ti me will tell whether they succeeded.

I think that actually increased their resolve.

Killing so many innocent people cannot go unpunished.

Re: # 2

SR,

... stop being so melodramatic ! .... in another week or so most pakis will forget about this event and go about their business as usual (until the next explosion) ...... we are a very resilient (dheet) people ......

....... personally i wouldn't mind the aerial bombing of mansoora and akora khattak in retaliation for this carnage ......... i would also like to see a ban on beards and maswak

....benazir's stock is, now, going to hit the roof in the usa....one of the reasons musharraf is so popular in usa is because he was physically targeted by al-qaeeda assassins....now benazir is going to be able to steal his thunder......she is set and will milk it for all that she can.......

......i suppose if one survives an assassination attempt, one has the right to milk it for all that one can......

......ppp has a history of fighting military dicatorship(s)...even in musharraf's case, ppp leaders have suffered quite a bit....navid qamar and yusuf gilani spent years in jail without being tried......however, fighting extremist militants has never been in ppp's history......in fact, it was she who created the taliban......

.......what will musharraf do now that benazir can steal the thunder on which he has based his whole survival, i.e. convincing the usa that he is the last bulwark against al-qaeda taking over pakistan, with nukes.......i think he will have to bring back nawaz sharif to split benazir's vote, and get the two to fight it out, with the army playing divide and rule......

....i think the short term outlook for pakistan looks bullish for liberal elements (musharraf, benazir and mqm), however, the long term outlook looks bullish for urstruly....

......pakistan is not a religiously orthodox society.....however, there is a limit to how long people will tolerate poor goverance....musharraf has long overstayed his welcome as a dictator.....benazir and co. are massively corrupt; not to mention feudal to the core.....they have no regard for the voter......mqm is an openly fascist party, which kills regularly to achieve its object.......

uptil now, these three forces were working separately.......now with them joined together, things are going to get ugly......

at which point, i think even the overwhelming majority of pakistan which is neither liberal nor orthodoxily religious is going to say, "let's give the maulvis a chance, how much worse could they be"

....muslim countries, have, all had liberal, generally secular govts. to start off.....one by one, wherever there is democracy, islamic govt. are coming into power......even turkey, which is more secular than the pope, has elected an islamic party.....

i think if the benazir, musharraf, altaf bhai trioka gets another five years, qazi hussain etc. will be the biggest beneficiaries.....

.......i saw, first hand, pakistan's enthusiastic allegiance to the usa, in the first afghan war......the result was pakistan holding the bag of klashnikovs, drugs, refugees and violence, while everyone packed their bags......the same thing is going to happen once again.....

germany and holland have, barely, lost 15 people combined in afghanistan, and have not had a single explosion within their boundaries, yet their population is pressurising their govts. to get the troops out of afghanistan.....in germany, public support for the afghan war is down to 31% or so.....spain had one expolosion, within its boundaries, and the govt. was changed and forced to withdraw troops from iraq, by its public....

pakistan has lost hundreds of soldiers on the afghanistan border and the country is in the begining stages of becoming an iraq - with one explosion after another in the heart of pakistan; none of which any govt. will be able to control, regardless of how much it bombs waziristan - yet all the leaders are doing is to jump ahead of each other in showing their loyalty to the us administration - gyrating their hips, so to speak - in making pakistan a frontline state (again!).......

bad days ahead for pakistan........the chief justice needs to disallow musharraf's election, and prosecute bb and ns for corruption.......and altaf bhai needs to be prosecuted in england, as per imran khan's case.......maybe then someone reasonable can come to the top........however, that is wishing for too much......

p.s. my condolensces to the families of the individuals who died......though i am not sure if it worth one's life to lose it in support of an individual like benazir; not to mention the long line of feudals and nth generation pirs who accompanied her in the front row of the truck......

This time to reflect and not spread gloomy things.
All important players have understood. Army, BB, General, Terrorist to think of some constructive work rather than destruction. Let us hope past is past and sinners have future and all they will work for Pakistan as once general said Sabse pahala Pakistan. Rulers come and go but pakistani state and pakistani state go ahead. One step backward two step forward. Many things are going good but reporters only report bad things, for them bad news is only news. Good morning and things are going to be fine, soon election, democratically elected govt after almost 10 years. Things may look bad in vicinity but in long term we are on way up.

It is a dark day for Pakistan. Too bad the Brothel Bitch survived. She had it coming... but instead, it was the poor and the misguided who caught the brunt of it. She is set on the glide plane which lands her in the Crime Minister's office. Short-cut Aziz bye, bye...

The return of "Sham Democracy" is being ushered in by none other than the same Thief of Army Staff who had sworn never to let it flurish again. ("liar, liar, pants on fire")

This whole seven ring circus will end in either (1) the further dismemberment of Rump Pakistan, or (2) the ushering in of a murderous right-wing junta (whether military or maulvi, it matters not) that will throw out the baby with the bath-water in the process of "cleaning up" the whole mess.

Only an extreme fascist dictatorship (where is Saddam Hussain when he is really needed?) can keep the federal state alive for however long the fascists can wield a Big Stick. Left to its own devises the centrifugal forces will overwhelm and tear apart the cement wall that holds this unnaturally patched together motley assortment of dissimilar entities rolled up into one messy ball of wax referred to as the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan"... or, as some say, "Is slimy Rip-public off Phuckistan."

Those who claim that God has been protecting Pakistan (a 'proof' of His existence, they assert) are fools... is THIS what God's protection looks like? It seems more like the "protection" from Iblees. The truth is that God has long since abandoned Pakistan.

Pakistanis now live in Alam-i-barzakh (Purgatory), awaiting His final Judgement that will surely send us all straight to Havia (HELL)...

Man has done all he can to ruin it ... Now the ONLY hope left for anything good is entirely subject to divine Mercy.

Let's pray for His MERCY... For without an Ally (real or imaginary) in the Sky nothing will save us.

Abraham is drawing his knife to slit his first-born's throat, now is the time, O Lord, to call it off.. to stop this ugly dramma. A delusional dream is going to cost innocent blood, O Merciful, send us sheep from heaven (whatever they may be) to take the poor boy's place.

...SR

Is B. Bhutto the only spokesperson for this movement? Is she willing to admit and engage with the charges of the considerable corruption committed by her husband under her previous leadership?

While the ideas and dialogue around political progress around the ppp movement is interesting, the bombings do not bode well.