Neoliberalism and Madrassas: An Unholy Connection

And there would be no Pakistan

Thank you Ahmar for the article.

For YLH the jihadis are due to india and teh indian whabism. Then there is role of Gandhi who spread hatred and the jihadis picked it up from him. According to YLH, the only books read in madrassas are koran and gandhis "my experiments with truth".

For tahmed, the jihadis are due to the US and the afghan war.

For zeemax, teh jihadis are due to Zia.

Now you have added the WB and the IMF to thsi list.

When will any pakistani say that the jihadis are due to pakistani policies and assume responsibility.

Mahboob:

Another point. You have a static cross section of income and schools. I would guess that the difference between madrassas and public school "choice" is not significant for "middle income" groups. If so, then it is quite interesting on its own and could point at some ideology based choices. Of course, there is too little data for this long shot.

Regards.

Dear Mahboob,

You present data which is consistent with your theory. This is a nice first step. As others have pointed out, presenting data which is consistent with your theory is not sufficiently convincing. As a next step, you may want to collect some data to deal with the counter-factual. Here is what you can do:

Take two districts in a state (this controls for a lot of heterogeneity), such that they have a different growth of public funding for schools. It would be nice to see whether the growth of madrassas are consistent with your story.

Doing the above exercise across states may give you some idea about the influence of culture etc. that some interactors have been talking about.

These exercises need inter-temporal data though.

No-matter how much data you use, you can never "prove" your point. However, with more careful data analysis you will be more and more convincing.

*It's NOT as if we have NOT dealt with your ilk, the talibans before*

zee

It's NOT as if we have dealt with your ilk, the talibans before... in kashmir, for example... the kill rate was always over-whelingly in favor of our troops... rarely ever jihadis captured indian soldiers... jihadis used to run away into nearby mosques in the hope that indian army will hesitate to attack a place of worship... but mostly they used to get blasted to pieces, alongwith mosques and bedouin books...

You go ahead and fight your kanjaroons, that's a fight you may have a chance to win... you have no chance against kafirs... :)

Zeemax sahib,

Why dont u reproduce the whole text in UP? Thanks in advance.

Regards

#63 Posted by majumdar,

(Please maintain data integrity :)

Yep 16:35 was the Friday score. Add up Thursday and Sunday from NY Times and Washington Post to get at the final ratio:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/29/world/asia/29PAKISTAN.html?_r=1& ref=world&oref=slogin
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/ 2007/10/29/AR2007102900370.html

Never mind the rest of the week for the time being ...

Zeemax sahib,

(Please maintain data integrity :)

Leader on Geo TV website

http://www.geo.tv/geonews/

(AT LEAST 35 EXTREMISTS, 16 SECURITY FORCES KILLED IN THREE DAYS OF CLASHES IN SWAT: NEWS AGENCY )

Regards

#61 Posted by majumdar,

The [sic] took much bigger casualties in the battle of Mirali, and even over the weekend more of [sic] who have been killed in Swat than kanjaroons.

Dunno where you get this info. The Mirali was no battle but a bombing raid over the village bazaar of Ippi which mainly killed civilians. The villagers who escaped confirmed that the Mujahideen had left for the mountains long before the raid.

As for Swat, some 60-70 troops have been killed in combat plus 14 abducted and beheaded. Additionally, the ISPR is so far denying Fazlullah's claim that 308 FC men are in his custody ... but they initially denied too the 250 in Baitullah's custody. In comparison, no more than a couple of dozen militants have been reported killed by media.

Please maintain data integrity :)

Masadi sahib,

(you on the other hand remain a plagirizing fool)

I was not plagiarising you, it was just two wise men coming to similar conclusions independently much like Newton and Leibniz discovering calculus simultaneously but independently.

Zeemax sahib,

(Yes ... but who will they go after, after they've run out of domestic kanjaroons to behead? )

True. But haven't you concluded rather prematurely that it is the havayoons who will end up beheading all the kanjaroons rather than the other way round. The havayoons took much bigger casualties in the battle of Mirali, and even over the weekend more of havayoons who have been killed in Swat than kanjaroons.

Also refer to my Post #55

Regards

#58 Posted by majumdar,

Yes ... but who will they go after, after they've run out of domestic kanjaroons to behead? Obviously they'll look for 'foreign markets'. :)

majumadar writes "Neoliberalism" affects Latin America, Africa, South East Asia and India equally. So how come people here are not flocking to madrassas"

That was my point in my post #6 here, don't try to borrow my point and then criticize the author as if he were me. SA are not the direct cause of the militant medressa but once the structure of it has been created the SA policies feed it and keep the foundations strong, that was my point, and the author talks about the link as indirect as well though he appears myopic for not making that assertion clearer, you on the other hand remain a plagirizing fool

Zeemax sahib,

(and Taliban have finally got rid of the Jahanabad budhha carved in stone in Swat.)

Seems they have got rid of quite a few security personnel too over the weekend.

(Now they will go after the idol worshipers and behead them wherever they find them.)

For the time being they seem to be more interested in beheading the kanjaroons within their borders.

Regards

Laddu,

You will be pleased to know that your fear of the idol breakers is totally justified, and Taliban have finally got rid of the Jahanabad budhha carved in stone in Swat.

Now they will go after the idol worshipers and behead them wherever they find them. Beware of your banya topi stand !!!

Re: # 52

Allah is responsible for Taliban.

Sunnat is responsible for Taliban.

If Allah is the supremacist deity then Taliban is his fascist clone on the Earth.

If Allah is correct then so is Taliban.

The author seems to be a Masadi clone blaming "the US elite" for each and every problem of Pakistan. "Neoliberalism" affects Latin America, Africa, South East Asia and India equally. So how come people here are not flocking to madrassas, flying planes into skyscrapers and blowing themselves all over the place?

Hamid mian,

(............hindoos beware! ..... as soon as these boys are done here they are coming after you )

But Gen Mush and his mard-e-momin martial race Pak Army are doing a great job of acting as a buffer saving the peaceful unwarlike inhabitants of the Indian plains from the havayoons as wisely predicted by Sir Allama Iqbal.

Regards

There is religious education and then there is its religio-

political mutation. It is the latter that has become the

biggest threat to traditional Madrassa education in

Pakistan.

Ras

so the point is, SAP is not sufficient to explain away the Demand for " Islamization" or " Talibization " ...whatever, as it has penetrated the high -Middle high - Middle income strata as well....

arjun writes "YOU..let me repeat..YOU were completely responsible for the taliban..."

You must be a total retard, I wasn't even in Pakistan when the Taliban were being constituted. There were two choices, let Afghanistan fall under Iranian influence (not something the US desired or the Pak military (this excludes the people of Pakistan desired), therefore using the structure of the Afghan Soviet war with a supply lifeline, with tacit approval of the US, the Taliban became rulers of Afghanistan. The clearest sign of the tacit approval of the US for the Taliban includes no effort on the international scene being made by it post Soviet withdrawl for fixing the mess it had helped create, and more than that was the use of the Pakistan military which does absolutely nothing of significance without getting a green light from the US or it quickly adjusts its behavior upon a phone call...

some of the Top Elite English Medium Schools now boast

"...Modern taleem kay sath Nazra Quran ki taleem bhi dee jati hey....."

rf writes "US foreign policy was NOT the main driving force behind militant maderassa, it was the PAK/Saudi policy to cultivate militant culture through Maderassa that were controlled through Pak organization and Saudi funding"

Total BS, why were the Saudi "petro dollars" not making the medressa militant before the Soviet invasion? It was only after the soviet invasion that the Saudi elite, subordinate totally and completely to the US elite kicked in with their "petro dollars", and the mullahs that they appease for a dual fulfilment of purpose and that was to fight the US proxy cold war. There is no amnesia on my part just stereotypes and BS on your part.

Then he writes "Correct, but u have very conviniently forgotten to mention their religios mentors (Hamas, Hizbollah) and financiers (petro dollars)"

Here you are totally confused, Hamas was created and strengthened by Israel as a bullwark against the secular PLO and Hizbollah has nothing to do with Saudi petro dollars. I did not "forget" to mention anything, we were discussing suicide bombings and they do not have a religious root or cause- this was well established by several studies which you chose to ignore because for you BS rules...

Then he writes "Again, you show selective amnesia. Sunnis bombed shia and Shia bombed sunni places of worship well b4 9/11. Scores of religious leaders were either shot dead or blown to pieces by their opponents"

Those "bombings" were the exception not the rule and they wer not suicide bombings, we saw certain groups come into being during the Zia era- as a direct consequence of the Soviet Afghan war and US meddling in creating groups with Saudi support, those groups set a cycle of sectarian killings, but those killings were not suicide bombings, these are a very new phenomna. However since you have no clue about the issues except BS, we don't expect you to know the details...

Then he writes "Tacit US approval? Make up your mind, either US was the main driving force or just a tacit approver. "

The direct US support was for the Mujahideen, the tacit support was for the Taliban, don't you even know how read? The main driving force for the medressa was the US proxy cold war, the structure that was left did not disappear when the US left it was that structure that spouted the Taliban and the US tacitly approved of them taking over Afghanistan...There was absolutely no contradiction on my part, you show a totally infantile ability to comprehend arguments, in fact your reading ability is quite weak, and its not JOE Stiglitz, it is Joseph Stiglitz, and he is not the end word on what the IMF/WB do, their actions are open books for all to see by their effects. Long before Stiglitz, Michel Chussodovsky wrote his "Globalization of Poverty", and countless studies have been done of it including my published study "Creating a Global Ghetto: Racism, the West and the "Third World"". The author is totally accurate in his conclusion. In case you don't understand "latent", let me explain it to you, once a structure is formed by direct processes, removing the direct stimulus will weaken the structure but if you have in place a setup that feeds it indirectly as the SA of the IMF/WB then you extend its life.

Don't just make posts for the sake of wasting space and time, if you have nothing to dispute your opponents points with except BS, might I politely suggest that you shut up (that goes for you too Hamid) and not make a damn fool of yourself...

Re: # 48

rf,

excellent post - this should shut up masadi permanently, but i am afraid he will come back and start from square one with his mantra : but, it is the fault of the us elite !

Re: # 42

Masadi,

"US foreign policy was the main driving force of the militant medressa phenomena"

US foreign policy was NOT the main driving force behind militant maderassa, it was the PAK/Saudi policy to cultivate militant culture through Maderassa that were controlled through Pak organization and Saudi funding. Americans wanted the Ruskies to pay and didnt care how and who did their dirty job, in comes the Pak stink tanks to use the local religious leaders who have always been willing partners (East pakistan is a classic example where JI openly colluded with Yahya Khan).

With reference to Hibollah and Hamas suicide bombers, aapnay farmiya:

"Yes they have but they have not been the only ones and the socio-political situation in their areas is quite different than what it was before 9/11 in Pakistan, over there many studies done on suicide bombings have not only profiled suicide bombers as not particularly religious but doing the act because of a sense of oppression over the occupation."

Correct, but u have very conviniently forgotten to mention their religios mentors (Hamas, Hizbollah) and financiers (petro dollars)

You go on to further add:

"When the occupation of Pakistan by the "US Occupation Force" became more crystallized to the people post 9/11, you saw a new phenomena in Pakistan, the suicide bomber."

Again, you show selective amnesia. Sunnis bombed shia and Shia bombed sunni places of worship well b4 9/11. Scores of religious leaders were either shot dead or blown to pieces by their opponents.

On the subject of Jihadis (??), Masadi narrates:

"This is complete BS, the Jihadis were nothing pre Afghan Soviet Invasion and post that invasion by giving them a country and a structure (that was lacking before that time)they were given added prominence and force. Their weapons were American supplied, their numbers were American supplied, even their initial training was American supplied, without these they were piss poor shots and rag tag warriors and even with them they lost around 2 million in Afghanistan."

I dont think anyone has disputed with historical facts, your plunge into senseless drivel shows lack of concnetration on your part.

Point regarding Jihadis (??) was directed post Talibanization or Pak armies desire to fortify their strategic depth via Pukhtoon (Taliban) domination of Afghanistan.

"Using this structure the Taliban were created in Pakistan, with tacit approval of the Americans who were wheeling and dealing with them as well pre-9/11."

Tacit US approval? Make up your mind, either US was the main driving force or just a tacit approver.

"You mean to tell us that if similar resources were poured into the Kashmir offensive as were into the Soviet Afghan war by the US, Kashmir would still have been under Indian control?"

We are talking about Pak initiatives in Kashmir that used the same network developed for strategic depth much after the Soviets left Afghanistan and with them the Americans (1989). Again you are contradicting yourself (the rat fart military of India compared to the SU would have been in tatters were the Jihadists a similar force there as they were in Afghanistan, 100% because of the US elite.)

Finally on the main subject, masadi writes:

"The author has made a great point regarding a latent effect of these neo-colonization policies. They concentrate poverty among the masses, and as a result alternatives that are basically religious in nature arise in order to fulfill the needs of people excluded from a social structure."

Latent? Latent effects are weak links that have no proof but writers personal biases. As for the inept IMF and their mistaken SAP, well we have Joe Stiglitz who does a much better job of detailing their mistakes. Finding links that do not exist only show writers prejuidices and plays into the much popular anti-west rhetoric.

Re: # 45

"so if the paki people are dying..good..you are lying in the bed you made.."

Law of karma is universal - intercession by a dead prophet is a propaganda to make muslims submit and accept the propaganda of hatred against idoaltors and kafirs.


Not even Lord Ram could escape the results of his karma.


Pakis are now going to suffer from the karmas of the hatred they have bred and nurtured since the last 60 years of their existence.!!!

Re: # 22

Mian these are going to FIRST come for you!!!

Beware.

#42 Posted by masadi on October 27, 2007 9:54:16 pm



Using this structure the Taliban were created in Pakistan, with tacit approval of the Americans who were wheeling and dealing with them as well pre-9/11


Mr Person-who-gets-his-paycheck-from-the-lackey-government-of-pakistan: That is BS and you know it...

YOU..let me repeat..YOU were completely responsible for the taliban..and you tried your hardest to use islamic terrorism to wrest kashmir from india and that failed completely..

so if the paki people are dying..good..you are lying in the bed you made..

actually anil democracy means diff things to diff people so if 95% of a community is white and they decide the 5% blacks shouldnt get to vote ...some people would say thats democracy some people would say thats not.

it is exceedingly regrettable but masadi has a point when he says mantos (and my) ideal state would not come about democratically at this point in pakistan.

its more relevant to ask masadi if the feudal voters (the slave owner system) have consistently trumphed all other votes in every democracy ...does he have any issue with that? or is it all good?

Anil writes "You cannot be less than a hypocrite who talks of democracy at his convenience.

Please stop this.

How relevant is democracy to your earlier diatribes of taking muslim world back to pure seventh century"


Here is a prime example of someone who reads things with blinders on. AH, when have I talked of taking back the Muslim world to the 7th century, please present one post out of the thousands I have done here. I do not talk of democracy at my convenience, in fact I expose YLH for wanting a Jinnaesque dictatorship based on religious exclusionism, rather than a people's democracy based on the needs (the bread and butter issues) of the masses.

The bigots on here (The Indian ones against the people of Pakistan and the Pakistani ones that are worshipping the West) have all proven themselves to be dimwits, they have been thoroughly and completely defeated....

rf writes "US foreign policy shares some responsibility but cannot be isolated from the Paki/Saudi nexus that was the real driving force behind this change"

US foreign policy was the main driving force of the militant medressa phenomena, saying that the Saudi/Pak Nexus- even though the Saudis were operating but on a much smaller scale, and with total tacit approval of the Americans, is like saying that the Saudis were the real driving force behind Gulf War 1. That is pure and total BS.

Then he writes "Hizbullah, Hamas have been using suicide bombing well b4 9/11 "

Yes they have but they have not been the only ones and the socio-political situation in their areas is quite different than what it was before 9/11 in Pakistan, over there many studies done on suicide bombings have not only profiled suicide bombers as not particularly religious but doing the act because of a sense of oppression over the occupation. When the occupation of Pakistan by the "US Occupation Force" became more crystallized to the people post 9/11, you saw a new phenomena in Pakistan, the suicide bomber. Now regardless of the lies that Arjun and SRK are spreading (trying to defend their ethnocentricity and bigotry), suicide bombing was something that appeared as a phenomena before Pakistan in India, and the Tamils Christians are a minority among them, who are predominantly Hindu and India's support for them was due to religious and not ethnic concerns, if they happened to be Muslim India wouldn't have supported them. That said the fight in ME is over occupation and land and not religion. Muslims and Jews lived over there in peace, harmony and equality for centuries before the colonials, in order to control the oil of the region implanted a foreign entity, dominated by European Jews and displaced the indigeneous folk.

Then he writes "In Pakistan, trouble has been brewing for quite sometime. Jihadis were developed for action in Afghanistan, Kashmir and monopolization of violence back home. Well guess what, 9/11 was the turning point for this ill-conceived state policy."

This is complete BS, the Jihadis were nothing pre Afghan Soviet Invasion and post that invasion by giving them a country and a structure (that was lacking before that time)they were given added prominence and force. Their weapons were American supplied, their numbers were American supplied, even their initial training was American supplied, without these they were piss poor shots and rag tag warriors and even with them they lost around 2 million in Afghanistan. Using this structure the Taliban were created in Pakistan, with tacit approval of the Americans who were wheeling and dealing with them as well pre-9/11. Neither history nor the facts are on your side. You mean to tell us that if similar resources were poured into the Kashmir offensive as were into the Soviet Afghan war by the US, Kashmir would still have been under Indian control? Get real, the rat fart military of India compared to the SU would have been in tatters were the Jihadists a similar force there as they were in Afghanistan, 100% because of the US elite.

Finally he writes "Now to link this with IMF SAP is not only intellectually corrupt but also extremely dangerous for the well being of any form of civilized society."

It is not intellectually corrupt, your points showed that it is you who suffers from intellectual retardation. The author has made a great point regarding a latent effect of these neo-colonization policies. They concentrate poverty among the masses, and as a result alternatives that are basically religious in nature arise in order to fulfill the needs of people excluded from a social structure. The direct cause I have made clear and nothing you have said has met the challenge I presented.

Re: # 25

Massaddi Mian:

"...Was Pakistan governed by a democratic people's government...."

You cannot be less than a hypocrite who talks of democracy at his convenience.

Please stop this.

How relevant is democracy to your earlier diatribes of taking muslim world back to pure seventh century through some kind of time machine? You cannot tolerate the pluralism of Yasser's view points, yet conveniently quote democracy.

Shobha nahin deta aapko.

#39, So in essence, all the Al Qaeda terrorism/suicide bombing is acceptable since the US nuked Japan, Halaku destroyed Baghdad blah blah. Standard apologist crap...

srk are u a nut, the romans depopulated israel, the allies carpet bombed germany and japan and the US dropped nuclear weapons on civilian populations.

halaku depopulated most muslim cities; the crusaders depopulated jerusalem, al qida is a baby in comparison

Masadi,

"Maybe not but they were Hindu pioneers of suicide bombings, supported by the Indian Govt, long before the phenomenon was seen in Pakistan."

Well, the conflict in Sri Lanka is ethnic. The Tamil Tigers are both Hindus and Christian. One of the main leader of the LTTE is Antwan Balasingham who is a Christian.

Also suicide attacks are not something pioneered by Hindus. Japanese Kamikazees are famous for this. One of the Shia sects in the early history of Islam known to have used the suicide attack tactics on their enemies. AFAIK, all these attacks are mainly against the fighting enemies and political leaders. But in the case of attacks by Al Qaeda and other similar outfits, the attacks were deliberately on the innocent civilians like the commuters in Bombay, London, Spain.

I hope you can see the difference but after reading so many of your posts, i do not have much hope about that.

HAHA...listen to imran khan say how pureland has used helicopter gunships against allah's chosen people while indians have never used any such thing.you tube link

Ref#35

US Govt did not force Jia lul phuk to foster and promote a culture of violence, that was a purely domestic decision. More importantly, the US left in 1989 what happened after that was just a continuation of the same ill-conceived domestic policies. Consider this, till the end of the seventies barelvi school of thought dominated maderassas, fast forward to the end of the century and deobandi/wahabi maderassas are the dominant entity. This is the main root cause of extremism in Pakistan, to imply otherwise is factually incorrect.

Re: # 29

"Girl schools" blown up is the correct statement that was mistakenly written as school girls.

Coming back to your chllenge, u said:

"The rise of the militant medressa is a direct consequence of the Afghan/Soviet war, with the US as major catalyst;"

Partially correct. US foreign policy shares some responsibility but cannot be isolated from the Paki/Saudi nexus that was the real driving force behind this change.

"and the rise of the militant medressa that practices suicide bombing is a direct consequence of the US war on terror methodology post 9/11 in this area and the Middle East..."

Hizbullah, Hamas have been using suicide bombing well b4 9/11 and the petrodollar states not only sanctioned such acts they also rewarded martyrs and their families. 9/11 changed that, ME states and other functionaries have distanced themselves from suicide bombings.

In Pakistan, trouble has been brewing for quite sometime. Jihadis were developed for action in Afghanistan, Kashmir and monopolization of violence back home. Well guess what, 9/11 was the turning point for this ill-conceived state policy. As the state is being forced to dismantle its policy of terror, elements that are dependent on this network are retaliating and theses same elements are those that finance and promote all sorts of violent reactions. Now to link this with IMF SAP is not only intellectually corrupt but also extremely dangerous for the well being of any form of civilized society.

Very good Essay, however one question remained unanswered, where are the free Madrassas getting fundings from? We may blame SAP but isn't it also a case of some elements using this loophole? Are there islamists parties funding such madrassas to gain street powers? and who are funding them?

Problem with Islamists are that they will do whatever they want, no matter what. They call everything war and everything is fair in war ..atleast for them.

Re: # 31

arjun,

... let me be the first one to apologize on behalf of my countrymen for using islamic jihadis in kashmir ...... and let me assure you that next time we will only use the regular military with support from indigeneous nationalist freedom fighters from iok ..... also, if we can't finish the campaign in a year, we will let you keep your ill gotten gains - life is too short .... fair enough ?

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#25 Posted by masadi on October 27, 2007 8:18:22 am


Was Pakistan governed by a democratic people's government when it made the decision to fight America's war? When you have an indigeneously staffed foreign occupation force,


Masadi...your US elites made us do it is getting to be like the twinkie made me do it defense..

let's see...

did pakis agitate in the streets to protest against that policy..NOPE..in fact, even pakis will tell you that pakis were fully on board with the afghan jihad because they saw the $$ it brought into pureland..

another thing: despite what paki revisionists will tell you, the taliban were entirely created, armed and trained by the paki army..and starting with the government of the military dictator benazir bhutto...did pakis agitate in the streets then? NOPE...

of course, the whole paki adventure in using islamic terrorism in kashmir was done entirely of your own volition..in fact, the majority of pakis openly professed their support of the jihad in kashmir before 9/11 sent their love for jihad into the closet..



On the other hand when you say "good" to Pakis dying, that tells me that you are a stinking immoral a.h


you're right...morals are for religious people and fools..

regardless, the fact that I'm enjoying every minute of this civil war isn't what is killing pakis...what's killing pakis is the choices you made and your use of islamic terrorism as a state policy..

""The rise of the militant medressa is a direct consequence of the Afghan/Soviet war, with the US as major catalyst; and the rise of the militant medressa that practices suicide bombing is a direct consequence of the US war on terror methodology post 9/11 in this area and the Middle East..."

And

Medressas (militant or otherwise) fluorish in a social structure that has an economy that is dependant, where most of the population lives below the poverty level, that relies on dirty money (bribes from the Americans) in order to survive- and this structure is maintained by the IMF/WB that controls both fiscal and monetary policy of the indebted nation- the author is 100% dead on when suggests that link- it might not be the direct cause of the militant medressa but it sure as hell is the latent consequence of our colonized nation, where the colonized status is maintained by just such institutions as the IMF/WB.

rf writes "Try answering the questions"

What questions the dumb ones regarding "how many girl students have been killed by the taliboon"?, as if that has anything to do with the growth the militant medressa where both males and females study or "funding of the madressas"- who was funding the Soviet/Afghan war and who delivered the funds? If you can answer that you'll be able to answer that question. Growth of Medressas in urban areas? Do you think urban areas in Pakistan have great public schools and social services? Come on, you don't have a clue and merely pick on the weakness of the author's article to further confuse a quite clear situation:

"The rise of the militant medressa is a direct consequence of the Afghan/Soviet war, with the US as major catalyst; and the rise of the militant medressa that practices suicide bombing is a direct consequence of the US war on terror methodology post 9/11 in this area and the Middle East..."

I challenge you, if you have any brain cells as you claim to disprove this using any reasoning or fact you can muster, BS questions, unaccompanied by sound reasons and reasoning wont do....

rf writes "Your caustic comments are not adding any value nor do they show any sign of constructive argument"

Contrary to your lazy BS I have provided sound explanations. Whereas your nonsense is based not on any "variables" but on your stereotypes, about which your presentation tells us you know nothing factual (because you are too lazy to base your nonsense on fact), you have tried to appear complex by putting in some arbitrary time periods that mean absolutely nothing detached from the social and historical context of that era, which I am presenting. It is not me who lacks the brain cells but you, try to counter even one point in my posts on the issue intellegently if what you say about your post holds any weight whatsoever...

#21 Posted by masadi

Masadi

Your caustic comments are not adding any value nor do they show any sign of constructive argument. I have shown the writer his narrative fallacy by offering variables that were not considered, what have u done? Zilch. Try answering the questions, if you do not have the braincells to contemplate different viewpoints then I suggest u find some humility it will do u wonders.

Re: # 25

masadi mian,

... i think you are being unfair to arjun mian - the horrible hindoos have been very restrained in their expression of joy at our predicamant ..... on the other hand, we were gloating, giving each other high fives, and doing back flips for al-lah when these same people were killing their soldiers in kashmir ........

........ heck, a couple of years ago even i thought it was a good idea to use these uncouth tribals as bashibazouks in the war to liberate kashmir - i thought we could kill two birds with one stones ..... i was wrong - one of these birds has come home to roost and is shitting all over us and the other, a mocking bird, is having a ball .........

....... and you are still a fool !

arjun writes "you weren't dragged kicking and screaming into that adventure. It was a conscious decision on your part..you saw F-16s and $$ and thought it would be a good idea to indoctrinate your own people..."

Man, you must be the king of all morons here. Was Pakistan governed by a democratic people's government when it made the decision to fight America's war? When you have an indigeneously staffed foreign occupation force, whose leadership lives off of the US elite's support, then when you get a predictible coup from that institution, that gets rid of the people's prime minister in the most barbaric manner, and an AH comes in as dictator, you cannot even by a wild stretch of the imagination say that the people of Pakistan had any choice. Even the dictator had little choice, he saw what he did to the prime minster and on whose behalf he acted. Did Musharraf have any real choice to go against the US war on terror post 9/11- not that he would have but even by a fluke if he wanted to he couldn't.

On the other hand when you say "good" to Pakis dying, that tells me that you are a stinking immoral a.h who not only has no clue about what he writes, he is so bigoted that he can easily legitimize the killing of innocents...

#15 Posted by masadi on October 26, 2007 9:02:54 pm


importing indoctrinating literature published in Nebraska, with help from "Saudi Petro Dollars", with tacit approval of the Americans, all for the purpose of fighting a proxy cold war with the Soviets.


you weren't dragged kicking and screaming into that adventure. It was a conscious decision on your part..you saw F-16s and $$ and thought it would be a good idea to indoctrinate your own people...

then, after the afghan war was over, you thought you could use islamic indoctrination to fight your fights in a'stan and kashmir...

so if pakis are dying...good..it's all your own damn doing..

IslamIslam writes "If you are talking about the attacks in Sri Lanka, it is not the RSS schools in India that indoctrinated them into becoming suicide bombers."

Maybe not but they were Hindu pioneers of suicide bombings, supported by the Indian Govt, long before the phenomenon was seen in Pakistan.

Then he writes "Now, you are not going to deny Koranic verses about killing the kaffirs, are you?

While you are at it, since there were no loudspeakers in Mo's time, why do your mullahs use loudspeakers to call the Faithful to prayers?

By extension, suicide bombs are also sanctioned in the Koran"

These have to be the most absurd line of reasoning that can only come out of a retard. First, there are NO verses calling for indiscriminate/unjust killing of anyone, all those verses that have formed part of your arsenal against Islam (i.e. were not discovered by you but fed to you) have a context and operate within the larger principle of not attacking or killing anyone who is not trying to kill you because of your religion. Second just because loud speakers (technology) were not present 1400 years ago does not mean that suicide was not present, and it does not mean that killing of innocents was not present- both are condemned by the Quran.

Then he says "How come then the suicide bombers in Spain, London, Glasgow, etc., are all Muslims?"

If the "war on terror" was against Hindu terrorists or instead of Iraq, India had been bombed to the stone age by the "coalition of the willing", you'd see a similar dynamic, then those caught rightly or wrongly for those acts would have been Hindus. Only damn fools, the like you you will ignore the entire situation in which those attacks occurred in order to try to understand them.

Then he concludes "Yes, the-Great-Satan-made-me-do-it defense! "

It's no defense. America happens to be incharge of the global economy, has its military all over the place, recently attacked and occupied Iraq for absolutely false reasons and has been supporting the barbaric occupation of Palestinians by the Israelis, it has been disrespecting the borders of countries, sanctioning them at will and killing their civilians- you mean to tell me that all this will produce no consequences and it will not piss of certain people and harden others? You must be a total damn fool

madrassa madness

SWAT, Oct 26: Militants on Friday publicly executed four law-enforcement personnel in a village, 16km west of Mingora ............ The men, said to be in their mid-20s, had their hands tied together. They were pushed to the ground on the main Matta-Mingora road and had their heads chopped off...........

MIRANSHAH: Masked men kidnapped two Christian janitors in front of Miranshah Headquarters Hospital in North Waziristan on Friday, eyewitnesses said. Naeem Masih and Shahbaz Masih, both janitors at the hospital, were abducted “right from the main gate of the hospital”,

............hindoos beware! ..... as soon as these boys are done here they are coming after you

rf writes "End note, it seems u suffer from epistemic arrogance thus the use of rude replies."

There is no arrogance involved, your post was a bunch of lazy BS, if you had reason enough to argue with the author then instead of asking him to do your work (where you produced a bunch of question out of we know where, without any though to connect those ideas involved) and calling his work a "fabrication", you should have presented some reasons, as I did when I disagreed with him. He has confused correlation with causation, for that you need to take note of other factors, the before and after (history) as well as other confounders that might lead to false conclusion and there are many in that case. That the IMF policies by concentrating poverty and helping the rich at the expense of the poor and reducing public services have indeed served a latent function of making people default to the religious institution for refuge, the rank and file of the madrassa goers are low income, however concluding from that that the IMF caused it is naive- but unlike you I present reasons and not a bunch of BS questions that you haven't thought about yourself...

Adi chhutti saari, mian makkhi maari!
[The school has half-day today, the Maulvi will have nothing to do]

I was reminded of this verse we used to rhyme in unison in our primary school whenever the school unexpectedly ended after the half-time recess. This was in the late forties in a government primary school. But the rhyme suggests to me that in the not-too-distant past, madrassas and Maulvis were used for secular education in Punjab by everyone and not just Muslims. Come to think of it, prominent Hindus such as Raja Ram Mohan Roy are said to have attended Madrassas. So, Madrassas as a place of primarily religious training, let alone military training, is perhaps a new phenomenon.

Re: # 15

Masadi sahib,

Author of this fabrication has chosen to show a statistical relationship btw maderassa growth and IMF SAP. Taking the same line of argument one can draw comparisons btw the growth of drugs, klashinkof culture and maderassas. Now are the Maderassas the causation of the other two evils? Statistically speaking one can make that conclusion, but is that the correct assumption? Maybe, maybe not. But one thing is for sure, there is nothing wrong with my statistical comparisons.

Clinging to fixed ideas and searching for narratives that confirm those biases has become a favorite pass time for many muslims (Pakis), introspection and honest inquisition has become rare.

End note, it seems u suffer from epistemic arrogance thus the use of rude replies.

its the silly on chowk.

The numbers of articles which are

(a) inarticulate
(b) illogical
(c) repeat the same old sets of ideas
(d) create the same tu-tu-mai-mai black-white scenarios.


Hey how about getting Hamidm2, atif2 (he has a terrific funny bone), Urstruly (he is a great writer of erotic prose ) and dare I say it the boring old neembu to do the honors here.

Are you listening the Staff- of Chowk

Nonsense,

The Jihadi masters are all well fed, well clothed and well educated - Osama bin laden, Al Zawahiri, all the 'magnificient' 13 , the 7/11 bombers and the rest of Al-Mujahideens and Al-Mansurs and Al-What nots leaders.

These are not poor, madarassa educated but control the madarassas.
Madarassas only provide raw foot soldiers, the zombies who would kill at the first order given on behalf of Allah by these 'educated' Pakistanis and muslims.
The real leadership of these jehadis are in the hands of these 'educated' muslims who finance and run these madarassas.

Re masadi #13

[islamislam writes "We don't have Hindus wandering around with suicide belts."

Hindus were one of the pioneers of suicide attacks....]

If you are talking about the attacks in Sri Lanka, it is not the RSS schools in India that indoctrinated them into becoming suicide bombers. Nor were the bombers quoting The Bhagavad Gita or saying "Kali Mata ki Jai" as they set off the bombs....as opposed to "Allahu Akbar", if you get the drift of what I am trying to say here.

[....The Koran has nothing to do with suicide attacks, I challenge you to produce one verse which supports the phenomena....]

The frikking Arabs had no idea about explosives or triggering mechanisms, otherwise there would have been explicit instructions in the Koran as to killing the kaffirs with suicide bombs.

Now, you are not going to deny Koranic verses about killing the kaffirs, are you?

While you are at it, since there were no loudspeakers in Mo's time, why do your mullahs use loudspeakers to call the Faithful to prayers?

By extension, suicide bombs are also sanctioned in the Koran.

[...It has more to do with a group's reaction to real or preceived oppression. The Koran has been with Pakistan for a long time as have been madrassas but suicide bombings in Pakistan are a new phenomena therefore you cannot hold either the Koran or the madrassa as the cause,....]

Okay, it is the Pakistani mindset, not the Islamic mindset. How come then the suicide bombers in Spain, London, Glasgow, etc., are all Muslims?

[....rather it is the direct consequence of the so called US war or terror- yes, the US elite are the cause of producing it by their tactics and policies that deliberately want to perpetuate such things to feed the so-called war on terror, a war without end...]

Yes, the-Great-Satan-made-me-do-it defense!

rf writes to the author "I have a few questions for you"

Of course you are lazy and don't have a clue about it but want to criticize the author nonetheless so you come up with nonsense questions, all the while ignoring the role of the CIA/US in setting up many of these schools, importing indoctrinating literature published in Nebraska, with help from "Saudi Petro Dollars", with tacit approval of the Americans, all for the purpose of fighting a proxy cold war with the Soviets. Once that structure develops it is self perpetuating, especially in a society that spends next to nothing on public services- and here is where the IMF becomes a factor. The madrassas have always been with us and exist in India as well but what they have become now, and where they have become now, is a new phenomena that needs to be studied in the geopolitical context of the region. The IMF is a factor in strengthening the structure of the madrassa, there can be no questions on that whatsoever.

Re: # 13

masadi,

.... if you keep on blaming everything on the US elite you will never be able to find a cure for your impotence ...... trust me, they didn't put anything in your free cheese while you were at howard (or was it prairie view?)- it is all in your head .... get over it!

islamislam writes "We don't have Hindus wandering around with suicide belts."

Hindus were one of the pioneers of suicide attacks. The Koran has nothing to do with suicide attacks, I challenge you to produce one verse which supports the phenomena. It has more to do with a group's reaction to real or preceived oppression. The Koran has been with Pakistan for a long time as have been madrassas but suicide bombings in Pakistan are a new phenomena therefore you cannot hold either the Koran or the madrassa as the cause, rather it is the direct consequence of the so called US war or terror- yes, the US elite are the cause of producing it by their tactics and policies that deliberately want to perpetuate such things to feed the so-called war on terror, a war without end...

Hamid, I know there are great geo-political manuverings going on in your gut but spare us your moronic BS.

There has been an explosion of private schools in India too.

We don't have Hindus wandering around with suicide belts.

It is the Koran, stupid.

i had kimchee for lunch today .... after coming back to work i felt a little bloated and have had gas since then ..... what caused this:

a) the us elite
b) the south korean lackeys of the us elite
c) the hindoo-zionist-cia axis of evil
d) the imf
e) the world bank
f) the us elite

......... i think the answer is a and e

in short, a new way to blame the other. great job.

Mahboob Bhai Salam,

With all due respect, your article is an absolute misrepresentation of statistical data that are being deliberately twisted to confirm the populist view that everything that ills Pakistan is because of the west. Statistically speaking, you would get an F for this fabrication.

I have a few questions for you:

(1) How are Maderssas financed?
(2) What is the correlation btw Maderassa financing and IMF SAP?
(3) What are the absolute amounts of education spending?
(4) How many school girls have been blown up by taliboon?
(5) What is the relationship btw Saudi petrodollars and maderassa growth?
(6) How come maderassas have grown in urban areas?
(7) What is the ratio of Afghan refugee children in Maderassas compared to Pakistani children? This data needs to be analyzed for periods extending from 1970-1980, 1980-1990 and 1990 to present.

It is an interesting take but I think one has to take into account the geographical distribution of these Madrassas vis a vis the population density in the respective regions particularly the conservative regions.Because if Madrassas to population ratio is higher in NWFP and Baluchistan while public schools to population is the same or nearly same across the provinces than the religious mindset of the populace is perhaps more responsible rather than lack of public schooling. Moreover one also has to see whether Public schools exist in the near vicinity of majority of Madrassas and whether the growth in Madrassas has actually coincided with the reduction, if any, of the public schools in the same vicinity. After all these factors have been taken into account only then we are in a better position to state that whether neo classical economic program is one of the significant factors behind this phenomenon

All the while I thought saudi petro-dollars are responsible for madrassa explosion in pakiland... that and the need for cheap supply of foot soldiers for pakis' strategic wet-dreams... No?

Now back to this article. The author is quite myopic, that structural adjustment asks for reduced public expenditure is no secret, but holding that as a cause of "madrassas" is missing the big picture. If this were the case than madrassas would have arisen in every country which deals with the IMF on similar terms (and rest assured Pakistan is not the only one). Now, I am willing to concede that the rise of the madrassa might be related to structural adjustment as a latent consequence but it certainly isn't the cause of that phenomenon. The direct cause of that was long before this new imperialism of the structural adjustment type came into being, it is a consequence of colonization and its exclusion of the population from the mainstream institutions that were designed for the benefit of the colonials. Once excluded the madrassa arose not only as a place of religious education but as a political and economic refuge. This was taken up by the new colonials (the US elite) with huge infrastructure/indoctrination/financial and other help during the Soviet Afghan war: that my friend is the direct cause of the current madrassa phenomenon, they (the US elite) legitimized it, nurtured it, strengthened it indirectly by their policies and now want to fight the Frankenstein of their own creation.

Chowk staff banned me unfairly yet once again because I replied to tahmed's baseless nonsense, this has got to be one of the most atrocious bs here, they ignore a person's contributions and promote ah's like ferozk who just today is condoning the military action in Swat, i.e. the US occupation force, a foreign (though indigeneously staffed) force trying to put their so called "writ of the imperialists" unto an indigeneous folk who have lived off that land and are not foreign to it.....immoral fools like these people similarly support the Israeli occupation of Palestinians, and how do they justify it, using slogans of "statesmanship", and then have tha audacity of talking about "democracy" after pushing for the people's will to be ignored (in favor of the will of the imperialists)

On that note, the best schools in India were Madrassahs. Everybody in those days went to Madrassahs. In face the persian culture and the british culture were taught side by side in a very famous college. Eventually the Madrassah was separated from the regular college-it was a deliberate step to create an upper class elite that mimiced the White in all respects so much so that they saw themselves as White. It was done because the British were racist and believed that their way of life was the best and it was the duty of Jesus's followers to educate the rest of the world into following the righteous and true path. It succeeded particularly well because of the Hindu, Sikh, Muslim divide and the partition in which the Muslim populations were effectively separated as 'others' from the rest of the indigenous population. Hindutva and Islamization policies have also helped in furthering colonialism's agendas. Christainity, not Islam has been the most successful homogenizing force that the world has known. Yes, they were bloody smart, on the other hand it isn't working that well anymore.

the UN is the other trio in the satanic troika which keeps the developing world poor and dependent on the capitalist first world. UN, IMF, World Bank.

Time for a new economic order. I think the Scandinavian socialist economic free market model is closest to the Islamic concept of social equality and justice barring the return of the gold dinar (and no I am not a Murabitoun!).

Excellent article that makes a very valid connection. It isn't a coincidence that the creation of wealth excludes the have nots or those who cannot price themselves according to the requirements of 'the system'.

Generally a good article and very well argued Ahmar Sahib. You should also mention that madrassahs per se are not a bad thing nor a new phenomenon: they have existed as traditional centres of religious and spiritual learning since the inception of Islam and in all parts of the Muslim world. Traditionally--at least until the 19th/20th century parents sent their best and brightest children to the madrassahs. All the great people we talk about in islamic history --from Rumi to Ghazali and Ibn Sina to and all the great fuqaha and awliya are primarily products of the madrassah. Islamic civilisation it can be argued is in itself primarily a product of the madrassah. Now of course the madrassahs receive the worst input and the results are apparent.

Your essay is a powerful argument for developing countries leaving the IMF and World Bank which are just outposts for the neocolonists especially the World Bank.

IMF loans are a form of modern slavery at a state level.