Neoliberalism and Madrassas: An Unholy Connection

Re: # 31

arjun,

... let me be the first one to apologize on behalf of my countrymen for using islamic jihadis in kashmir ...... and let me assure you that next time we will only use the regular military with support from indigeneous nationalist freedom fighters from iok ..... also, if we can't finish the campaign in a year, we will let you keep your ill gotten gains - life is too short .... fair enough ?

Very good Essay, however one question remained unanswered, where are the free Madrassas getting fundings from? We may blame SAP but isn't it also a case of some elements using this loophole? Are there islamists parties funding such madrassas to gain street powers? and who are funding them?

Problem with Islamists are that they will do whatever they want, no matter what. They call everything war and everything is fair in war ..atleast for them.

Re: # 29

"Girl schools" blown up is the correct statement that was mistakenly written as school girls.

Coming back to your chllenge, u said:

"The rise of the militant medressa is a direct consequence of the Afghan/Soviet war, with the US as major catalyst;"

Partially correct. US foreign policy shares some responsibility but cannot be isolated from the Paki/Saudi nexus that was the real driving force behind this change.

"and the rise of the militant medressa that practices suicide bombing is a direct consequence of the US war on terror methodology post 9/11 in this area and the Middle East..."

Hizbullah, Hamas have been using suicide bombing well b4 9/11 and the petrodollar states not only sanctioned such acts they also rewarded martyrs and their families. 9/11 changed that, ME states and other functionaries have distanced themselves from suicide bombings.

In Pakistan, trouble has been brewing for quite sometime. Jihadis were developed for action in Afghanistan, Kashmir and monopolization of violence back home. Well guess what, 9/11 was the turning point for this ill-conceived state policy. As the state is being forced to dismantle its policy of terror, elements that are dependent on this network are retaliating and theses same elements are those that finance and promote all sorts of violent reactions. Now to link this with IMF SAP is not only intellectually corrupt but also extremely dangerous for the well being of any form of civilized society.

Ref#35

US Govt did not force Jia lul phuk to foster and promote a culture of violence, that was a purely domestic decision. More importantly, the US left in 1989 what happened after that was just a continuation of the same ill-conceived domestic policies. Consider this, till the end of the seventies barelvi school of thought dominated maderassas, fast forward to the end of the century and deobandi/wahabi maderassas are the dominant entity. This is the main root cause of extremism in Pakistan, to imply otherwise is factually incorrect.

HAHA...listen to imran khan say how pureland has used helicopter gunships against allah's chosen people while indians have never used any such thing.you tube link

Masadi,

"Maybe not but they were Hindu pioneers of suicide bombings, supported by the Indian Govt, long before the phenomenon was seen in Pakistan."

Well, the conflict in Sri Lanka is ethnic. The Tamil Tigers are both Hindus and Christian. One of the main leader of the LTTE is Antwan Balasingham who is a Christian.

Also suicide attacks are not something pioneered by Hindus. Japanese Kamikazees are famous for this. One of the Shia sects in the early history of Islam known to have used the suicide attack tactics on their enemies. AFAIK, all these attacks are mainly against the fighting enemies and political leaders. But in the case of attacks by Al Qaeda and other similar outfits, the attacks were deliberately on the innocent civilians like the commuters in Bombay, London, Spain.

I hope you can see the difference but after reading so many of your posts, i do not have much hope about that.

srk are u a nut, the romans depopulated israel, the allies carpet bombed germany and japan and the US dropped nuclear weapons on civilian populations.

halaku depopulated most muslim cities; the crusaders depopulated jerusalem, al qida is a baby in comparison

#39, So in essence, all the Al Qaeda terrorism/suicide bombing is acceptable since the US nuked Japan, Halaku destroyed Baghdad blah blah. Standard apologist crap...

Re: # 25

Massaddi Mian:

"...Was Pakistan governed by a democratic people's government...."

You cannot be less than a hypocrite who talks of democracy at his convenience.

Please stop this.

How relevant is democracy to your earlier diatribes of taking muslim world back to pure seventh century through some kind of time machine? You cannot tolerate the pluralism of Yasser's view points, yet conveniently quote democracy.

Shobha nahin deta aapko.

rf writes "US foreign policy shares some responsibility but cannot be isolated from the Paki/Saudi nexus that was the real driving force behind this change"

US foreign policy was the main driving force of the militant medressa phenomena, saying that the Saudi/Pak Nexus- even though the Saudis were operating but on a much smaller scale, and with total tacit approval of the Americans, is like saying that the Saudis were the real driving force behind Gulf War 1. That is pure and total BS.

Then he writes "Hizbullah, Hamas have been using suicide bombing well b4 9/11 "

Yes they have but they have not been the only ones and the socio-political situation in their areas is quite different than what it was before 9/11 in Pakistan, over there many studies done on suicide bombings have not only profiled suicide bombers as not particularly religious but doing the act because of a sense of oppression over the occupation. When the occupation of Pakistan by the "US Occupation Force" became more crystallized to the people post 9/11, you saw a new phenomena in Pakistan, the suicide bomber. Now regardless of the lies that Arjun and SRK are spreading (trying to defend their ethnocentricity and bigotry), suicide bombing was something that appeared as a phenomena before Pakistan in India, and the Tamils Christians are a minority among them, who are predominantly Hindu and India's support for them was due to religious and not ethnic concerns, if they happened to be Muslim India wouldn't have supported them. That said the fight in ME is over occupation and land and not religion. Muslims and Jews lived over there in peace, harmony and equality for centuries before the colonials, in order to control the oil of the region implanted a foreign entity, dominated by European Jews and displaced the indigeneous folk.

Then he writes "In Pakistan, trouble has been brewing for quite sometime. Jihadis were developed for action in Afghanistan, Kashmir and monopolization of violence back home. Well guess what, 9/11 was the turning point for this ill-conceived state policy."

This is complete BS, the Jihadis were nothing pre Afghan Soviet Invasion and post that invasion by giving them a country and a structure (that was lacking before that time)they were given added prominence and force. Their weapons were American supplied, their numbers were American supplied, even their initial training was American supplied, without these they were piss poor shots and rag tag warriors and even with them they lost around 2 million in Afghanistan. Using this structure the Taliban were created in Pakistan, with tacit approval of the Americans who were wheeling and dealing with them as well pre-9/11. Neither history nor the facts are on your side. You mean to tell us that if similar resources were poured into the Kashmir offensive as were into the Soviet Afghan war by the US, Kashmir would still have been under Indian control? Get real, the rat fart military of India compared to the SU would have been in tatters were the Jihadists a similar force there as they were in Afghanistan, 100% because of the US elite.

Finally he writes "Now to link this with IMF SAP is not only intellectually corrupt but also extremely dangerous for the well being of any form of civilized society."

It is not intellectually corrupt, your points showed that it is you who suffers from intellectual retardation. The author has made a great point regarding a latent effect of these neo-colonization policies. They concentrate poverty among the masses, and as a result alternatives that are basically religious in nature arise in order to fulfill the needs of people excluded from a social structure. The direct cause I have made clear and nothing you have said has met the challenge I presented.

Anil writes "You cannot be less than a hypocrite who talks of democracy at his convenience.

Please stop this.

How relevant is democracy to your earlier diatribes of taking muslim world back to pure seventh century"


Here is a prime example of someone who reads things with blinders on. AH, when have I talked of taking back the Muslim world to the 7th century, please present one post out of the thousands I have done here. I do not talk of democracy at my convenience, in fact I expose YLH for wanting a Jinnaesque dictatorship based on religious exclusionism, rather than a people's democracy based on the needs (the bread and butter issues) of the masses.

The bigots on here (The Indian ones against the people of Pakistan and the Pakistani ones that are worshipping the West) have all proven themselves to be dimwits, they have been thoroughly and completely defeated....

actually anil democracy means diff things to diff people so if 95% of a community is white and they decide the 5% blacks shouldnt get to vote ...some people would say thats democracy some people would say thats not.

it is exceedingly regrettable but masadi has a point when he says mantos (and my) ideal state would not come about democratically at this point in pakistan.

its more relevant to ask masadi if the feudal voters (the slave owner system) have consistently trumphed all other votes in every democracy ...does he have any issue with that? or is it all good?

#42 Posted by masadi on October 27, 2007 9:54:16 pm



Using this structure the Taliban were created in Pakistan, with tacit approval of the Americans who were wheeling and dealing with them as well pre-9/11


Mr Person-who-gets-his-paycheck-from-the-lackey-government-of-pakistan: That is BS and you know it...

YOU..let me repeat..YOU were completely responsible for the taliban..and you tried your hardest to use islamic terrorism to wrest kashmir from india and that failed completely..

so if the paki people are dying..good..you are lying in the bed you made..

Re: # 22

Mian these are going to FIRST come for you!!!

Beware.

Re: # 45

"so if the paki people are dying..good..you are lying in the bed you made.."

Law of karma is universal - intercession by a dead prophet is a propaganda to make muslims submit and accept the propaganda of hatred against idoaltors and kafirs.


Not even Lord Ram could escape the results of his karma.


Pakis are now going to suffer from the karmas of the hatred they have bred and nurtured since the last 60 years of their existence.!!!

Re: # 42

Masadi,

"US foreign policy was the main driving force of the militant medressa phenomena"

US foreign policy was NOT the main driving force behind militant maderassa, it was the PAK/Saudi policy to cultivate militant culture through Maderassa that were controlled through Pak organization and Saudi funding. Americans wanted the Ruskies to pay and didnt care how and who did their dirty job, in comes the Pak stink tanks to use the local religious leaders who have always been willing partners (East pakistan is a classic example where JI openly colluded with Yahya Khan).

With reference to Hibollah and Hamas suicide bombers, aapnay farmiya:

"Yes they have but they have not been the only ones and the socio-political situation in their areas is quite different than what it was before 9/11 in Pakistan, over there many studies done on suicide bombings have not only profiled suicide bombers as not particularly religious but doing the act because of a sense of oppression over the occupation."

Correct, but u have very conviniently forgotten to mention their religios mentors (Hamas, Hizbollah) and financiers (petro dollars)

You go on to further add:

"When the occupation of Pakistan by the "US Occupation Force" became more crystallized to the people post 9/11, you saw a new phenomena in Pakistan, the suicide bomber."

Again, you show selective amnesia. Sunnis bombed shia and Shia bombed sunni places of worship well b4 9/11. Scores of religious leaders were either shot dead or blown to pieces by their opponents.

On the subject of Jihadis (??), Masadi narrates:

"This is complete BS, the Jihadis were nothing pre Afghan Soviet Invasion and post that invasion by giving them a country and a structure (that was lacking before that time)they were given added prominence and force. Their weapons were American supplied, their numbers were American supplied, even their initial training was American supplied, without these they were piss poor shots and rag tag warriors and even with them they lost around 2 million in Afghanistan."

I dont think anyone has disputed with historical facts, your plunge into senseless drivel shows lack of concnetration on your part.

Point regarding Jihadis (??) was directed post Talibanization or Pak armies desire to fortify their strategic depth via Pukhtoon (Taliban) domination of Afghanistan.

"Using this structure the Taliban were created in Pakistan, with tacit approval of the Americans who were wheeling and dealing with them as well pre-9/11."

Tacit US approval? Make up your mind, either US was the main driving force or just a tacit approver.

"You mean to tell us that if similar resources were poured into the Kashmir offensive as were into the Soviet Afghan war by the US, Kashmir would still have been under Indian control?"

We are talking about Pak initiatives in Kashmir that used the same network developed for strategic depth much after the Soviets left Afghanistan and with them the Americans (1989). Again you are contradicting yourself (the rat fart military of India compared to the SU would have been in tatters were the Jihadists a similar force there as they were in Afghanistan, 100% because of the US elite.)

Finally on the main subject, masadi writes:

"The author has made a great point regarding a latent effect of these neo-colonization policies. They concentrate poverty among the masses, and as a result alternatives that are basically religious in nature arise in order to fulfill the needs of people excluded from a social structure."

Latent? Latent effects are weak links that have no proof but writers personal biases. As for the inept IMF and their mistaken SAP, well we have Joe Stiglitz who does a much better job of detailing their mistakes. Finding links that do not exist only show writers prejuidices and plays into the much popular anti-west rhetoric.