Chowk November 3, 2007
#158 Posted by aquaris on November 4, 2007 3:16:25 am
All of those who are hungry for latest developments in Pakistan , can have look again.
visit
www.pkpolitics.com
and
www.pklatest.com
recorded streams of some live transmission from aaj.tv, geo.tv etc.... available.
#157 Posted by A.H.Cemendtaur on November 4, 2007 2:58:56 am
A plan of action beyond a usual statement of condemnation
Friends of South Asia (www.friendsofsouthasia.org) is meeting on Sunday, November 4, at 6 pm at Newark City library for its Eid-Diwali program and to brainstorm on devising a strategy to deal with the present political crisis in Pakistan. Here is the first draft of a plan of action FOSA is working on and would like to discuss in the meeting.
C.
With the imposition of Emergency on November 3 General Pervez Musharraf has plunged Pakistan into terrible uncertainty. Whereas General Pervez Musharraf says he took the precarious step to save Pakistan, no one doubts the only thing Musharraf is interested in saving is his own grip on power.
We condemn Pervez Musharraf’s latest authoritarian decree and want Pakistanis and well-wishers of Pakistan to build pressure on him to take back the emergency measures. But having witnessed Pervez Musharraf’s propensity to sacrifice anything for his own personal gain we doubt if Musharraf under any cogent force would backtrack.
Considering Pakistanis desire for democracy, the recent struggle for the restoration of a Chief Justice illegally removed by the dictator, the ongoing pro-civil society debates in the erstwhile independent Pakistani media, and the pro-democracy sentiments within the Pakistan Army we wish to humbly suggest a shorter path towards restoring order in Pakistan.
In order to facilitate removal of Pervez Musharraf and to avoid further chaos in the country by keeping its institutions intact we urge Pakistanis in general and Pakistan’s political parties in particular to quickly form an interim government. The interim government and events related to its enactment should have the following features:
1. The interim government should be headed by an interim president who would hold free and fair general elections in the shortest span of time.
2. To ensure working of an independent judiciary all Supreme Court judges deposed on November 3 by Pervez Musharraf should be restored to their positions.
3. Pakistan Army should stop taking orders from Pervez Musharraf and current Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Kayani should immediately take charge of the forces. General Kayani should work under the interim president.
4. All political workers and members of legal fraternity arrested in the wake of emergency should be released.
5. All bureaucratic institutions with their current officers should keep functioning under the interim president.
We urge Pakistani political parties to quickly consent to an interim president. One choice obvious to many would be Retired Chief Justice Wajihuddin Ahmed who as a public servant not only had a spotless career, but who gained considerable public support while recently running for President against Pervez Musharraf
Till an interim government through the wishes of Pakistanis and Pakistan’s political parties takes command we ask all citizens to commence an indefinite strike starting from Monday, November 5.
Friends of South Asia (www.friendsofsouthasia.org) is meeting on Sunday, November 4, at 6 pm at Newark City library for its Eid-Diwali program and to brainstorm on devising a strategy to deal with the present political crisis in Pakistan. Here is the first draft of a plan of action FOSA is working on and would like to discuss in the meeting.
C.
With the imposition of Emergency on November 3 General Pervez Musharraf has plunged Pakistan into terrible uncertainty. Whereas General Pervez Musharraf says he took the precarious step to save Pakistan, no one doubts the only thing Musharraf is interested in saving is his own grip on power.
We condemn Pervez Musharraf’s latest authoritarian decree and want Pakistanis and well-wishers of Pakistan to build pressure on him to take back the emergency measures. But having witnessed Pervez Musharraf’s propensity to sacrifice anything for his own personal gain we doubt if Musharraf under any cogent force would backtrack.
Considering Pakistanis desire for democracy, the recent struggle for the restoration of a Chief Justice illegally removed by the dictator, the ongoing pro-civil society debates in the erstwhile independent Pakistani media, and the pro-democracy sentiments within the Pakistan Army we wish to humbly suggest a shorter path towards restoring order in Pakistan.
In order to facilitate removal of Pervez Musharraf and to avoid further chaos in the country by keeping its institutions intact we urge Pakistanis in general and Pakistan’s political parties in particular to quickly form an interim government. The interim government and events related to its enactment should have the following features:
1. The interim government should be headed by an interim president who would hold free and fair general elections in the shortest span of time.
2. To ensure working of an independent judiciary all Supreme Court judges deposed on November 3 by Pervez Musharraf should be restored to their positions.
3. Pakistan Army should stop taking orders from Pervez Musharraf and current Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Kayani should immediately take charge of the forces. General Kayani should work under the interim president.
4. All political workers and members of legal fraternity arrested in the wake of emergency should be released.
5. All bureaucratic institutions with their current officers should keep functioning under the interim president.
We urge Pakistani political parties to quickly consent to an interim president. One choice obvious to many would be Retired Chief Justice Wajihuddin Ahmed who as a public servant not only had a spotless career, but who gained considerable public support while recently running for President against Pervez Musharraf
Till an interim government through the wishes of Pakistanis and Pakistan’s political parties takes command we ask all citizens to commence an indefinite strike starting from Monday, November 5.
#156 Posted by tahmed32 on November 4, 2007 2:53:23 am
#154 zeemax: I think laddu has a point here. "Sovereignty to Allah" sounds fine in theory, but has historically translated, and can only translate, in practice to "Sovereignty to the General" (i.e. the man with the most firepower).
I suggest this substitute:
"Sovereignty to the People"..because.. "Vox Populi, Vox Dei" (the voice of the people is the voice of God).
If you oppose military's theft of this sovereignty from the people, then you should also oppose potential theives claiming to speak for Allah.
I suggest this substitute:
"Sovereignty to the People"..because.. "Vox Populi, Vox Dei" (the voice of the people is the voice of God).
If you oppose military's theft of this sovereignty from the people, then you should also oppose potential theives claiming to speak for Allah.
#155 Posted by zeemax on November 4, 2007 2:50:02 am
#154 Posted by laddu,
Laddu Ji, this is exactly what I meant by "which is abhorred by the west and considered as a threat"
Don't worry. No one is after your scalp in implementing the sovereignty of Allah. It is a vital concept in Islam aimed solely towards delivery of socio-economic justice.
Laddu Ji, this is exactly what I meant by "which is abhorred by the west and considered as a threat"
Don't worry. No one is after your scalp in implementing the sovereignty of Allah. It is a vital concept in Islam aimed solely towards delivery of socio-economic justice.
#154 Posted by laddu on November 4, 2007 2:43:20 am
Re: # 151
"sovereignty of Allah is merely there to remove tyranny of human rulers. I think it is a brilliant concept."
Zeemax ji,
sovereignty of Allah is the most heinous of concepts. It is like the sovereignity of God that was discredited in the dark ages that enhances tyranny of human rulers.
I think it is a brilliant concept for dictators for subjugating people and keeping them under fear all the time.
"sovereignty of Allah is merely there to remove tyranny of human rulers. I think it is a brilliant concept."
Zeemax ji,
sovereignty of Allah is the most heinous of concepts. It is like the sovereignity of God that was discredited in the dark ages that enhances tyranny of human rulers.
I think it is a brilliant concept for dictators for subjugating people and keeping them under fear all the time.
#153 Posted by zeemax on November 4, 2007 2:29:01 am
#150 Posted by tahmed32,
In that article of Bilal Musharraf's of 14 October 1999, I still remember I had posted that musharraf will be ultimately dragged in the streets.
Just today on the only Geo feed available on http://pkpolitics.com Justice Wajeehuddin was saying musharraf has committed high-treason twice and will be tried and hanged. So did Imran Khan. Both said this proclamation is a matter of no more than a few days or weeks.
In that article of Bilal Musharraf's of 14 October 1999, I still remember I had posted that musharraf will be ultimately dragged in the streets.
Just today on the only Geo feed available on http://pkpolitics.com Justice Wajeehuddin was saying musharraf has committed high-treason twice and will be tried and hanged. So did Imran Khan. Both said this proclamation is a matter of no more than a few days or weeks.
#152 Posted by bulleya on November 4, 2007 2:27:36 am
..i was in uae when the emergency was declared, so had a chance to see everything on geo.....pretty good coverage.....
......as i had said earlier, musharraf should have left after three years.....he would have been a hero......now he is stuck.....
.....the only thing he has going for him, is religion.....when one makes one's whole stand around religion, one will always get some passionated followers who will forget all other sins......musharraf has been able to achieve this.......he has projected himself as the last bullwark against religious extremism......and has gained the support of the usa, the daily times, and much of the expat crowd......
.......however, that also has limitations......
pakistan is now in a totally strange place.......a martial law has been declared by an unelected president against his own government!......the constitution is in abeyance, yet the assemblies function!.......however, the courts are gone!......i.e. a coas has fired the president, who happens to be himself!........
what is even more strange is that those condemning this did exactly the same thing.......nawaz sharif almost passed the shariah bill, which would have made him a dictator......he declared an emergency after the nuclear blasts (??).....he also got rid of a chief justice, by physically storming the supreme court.......and he has a lot to gain from the supreme court being submissive, as he has corruption cases going on.......
.......benazir, is a lifetime head of her own party, hence its perpetual pm candidate......her father declared martial law, after the 1973 constitution had been passed......she also tried to subvert the judiciary, through jiyala judges...and she has major corruption cases against, with far too much proof to be let off......in fact, she is convicted in switzerland.......so she would also want a submissive judiciary........
........altaf hussain has condemned the martial law.....yet his own party is in power...and his governor in sind administered the oath to the new judges.......and altaf would also want a submissive judiciary, as he has multiple murder cases against him........
.......one has to hand it to the judges.....only a small fraction has accepted the pco at the provincial and state level......they have given up their jobs, on a matter of principal......
as i said earlier, smart money is no urstruly and the religiuos right.......the liberal leadership of pakistan is now totally discredited and is too mired in violence.....musharraf, ppp and mqm are the liberal side.......all three have done whatever they can to gain or stay in power.......
.......the religious right has no corruption cases against it.......is represented by the poor......much of it is internally democratic......they have not killed anyone, a la mqm........and they are quite shrewd, (fazl etc.).......
......musharraf's speech was one of the worst i have ever heard from anyone.......totally incoherent......
....in the end it is back to the people......if they come out into the streets, things will change.....if not, then either they figure that bb, musharraf, ns etc. all the same.......or they have become to cynical and have given up......
......as i had said earlier, musharraf should have left after three years.....he would have been a hero......now he is stuck.....
.....the only thing he has going for him, is religion.....when one makes one's whole stand around religion, one will always get some passionated followers who will forget all other sins......musharraf has been able to achieve this.......he has projected himself as the last bullwark against religious extremism......and has gained the support of the usa, the daily times, and much of the expat crowd......
.......however, that also has limitations......
pakistan is now in a totally strange place.......a martial law has been declared by an unelected president against his own government!......the constitution is in abeyance, yet the assemblies function!.......however, the courts are gone!......i.e. a coas has fired the president, who happens to be himself!........
what is even more strange is that those condemning this did exactly the same thing.......nawaz sharif almost passed the shariah bill, which would have made him a dictator......he declared an emergency after the nuclear blasts (??).....he also got rid of a chief justice, by physically storming the supreme court.......and he has a lot to gain from the supreme court being submissive, as he has corruption cases going on.......
.......benazir, is a lifetime head of her own party, hence its perpetual pm candidate......her father declared martial law, after the 1973 constitution had been passed......she also tried to subvert the judiciary, through jiyala judges...and she has major corruption cases against, with far too much proof to be let off......in fact, she is convicted in switzerland.......so she would also want a submissive judiciary........
........altaf hussain has condemned the martial law.....yet his own party is in power...and his governor in sind administered the oath to the new judges.......and altaf would also want a submissive judiciary, as he has multiple murder cases against him........
.......one has to hand it to the judges.....only a small fraction has accepted the pco at the provincial and state level......they have given up their jobs, on a matter of principal......
as i said earlier, smart money is no urstruly and the religiuos right.......the liberal leadership of pakistan is now totally discredited and is too mired in violence.....musharraf, ppp and mqm are the liberal side.......all three have done whatever they can to gain or stay in power.......
.......the religious right has no corruption cases against it.......is represented by the poor......much of it is internally democratic......they have not killed anyone, a la mqm........and they are quite shrewd, (fazl etc.).......
......musharraf's speech was one of the worst i have ever heard from anyone.......totally incoherent......
....in the end it is back to the people......if they come out into the streets, things will change.....if not, then either they figure that bb, musharraf, ns etc. all the same.......or they have become to cynical and have given up......
#151 Posted by zeemax on November 4, 2007 2:24:38 am
#146 Posted by jayp,
Your post talks a lot of sense, but jayp, how many people listen to sense?
You're right anything Islamic is branded as terrorist, and bombed. Just as most of what I say is branded as 'terrorist', and abused. It is only that I understand Islam better than most, and I know Islam will never be eliminated with bombs.
Fact is that Islam is an alternate socio-economic system just as communism was, or even now socialism is in most European countries. It is merely a concept of a welfare state, with the vital difference (which is abhorred by the west and considered as a threat) is that sovereignty rests with God instead of man. Is that too much to crib about? In my understanding, sovereignty of Allah is merely there to remove tyranny of human rulers. I think it is a brilliant concept.
Why bomb people who want this system? Why not just let them have it?
As for the Pakistan nuke, it is India specific. If India agrees to denuclearize, Pakistan will have no problem as well. It is not an 'Islamic' bomb but just to counter the Indian threat. The west has nothing to feel threatened with it.In any event, does Pakistan have delivery capacity to reach Europe let alone USA?
These inconsistencies are those which make the Muslims convinced the war on terror is in fact a war against Islam.
I agree with that view.
Your post talks a lot of sense, but jayp, how many people listen to sense?
You're right anything Islamic is branded as terrorist, and bombed. Just as most of what I say is branded as 'terrorist', and abused. It is only that I understand Islam better than most, and I know Islam will never be eliminated with bombs.
Fact is that Islam is an alternate socio-economic system just as communism was, or even now socialism is in most European countries. It is merely a concept of a welfare state, with the vital difference (which is abhorred by the west and considered as a threat) is that sovereignty rests with God instead of man. Is that too much to crib about? In my understanding, sovereignty of Allah is merely there to remove tyranny of human rulers. I think it is a brilliant concept.
Why bomb people who want this system? Why not just let them have it?
As for the Pakistan nuke, it is India specific. If India agrees to denuclearize, Pakistan will have no problem as well. It is not an 'Islamic' bomb but just to counter the Indian threat. The west has nothing to feel threatened with it.In any event, does Pakistan have delivery capacity to reach Europe let alone USA?
These inconsistencies are those which make the Muslims convinced the war on terror is in fact a war against Islam.
I agree with that view.
#150 Posted by tahmed32 on November 4, 2007 2:10:52 am
zeemax: I went back and checked a couple of your posts after #94. So, mqm is saying "he had no choice". Let us hope one day musharraf really has no choice - when he is brought before court and charged with multiple crimes.
#149 Posted by zeemax on November 4, 2007 2:05:07 am
#148 Posted by tahmed32,
... and the media. Do read my later posts after #94.
... and the media. Do read my later posts after #94.
#148 Posted by tahmed32 on November 4, 2007 1:48:39 am
zeemax #94 the coup wasnt against himself by this disgraceful man. it was against the Supreme Court.
#147 Posted by tahmed32 on November 4, 2007 1:46:30 am
Zyxius #126 So you think mqm and musharraf are riding high? Think again, you fool.
#146 Posted by jayp on November 4, 2007 1:44:03 am
Zeemax,
May be people like you will have to come up with a new vision for Pakistan, a moderate islamic vision, something like that in Iran. It is even likely that when the jihadis get power in Pakistan, they will moderate. But that will be a long time away, now under the US influence anything islamic is terrorist oriented, and an accommodation with the islamic parties is not viable. That si why the peace treaty in NWFP is viewed with suspicion, and I do believe that what Mushy is trying is the only viable option to stabilise Afghanistan. Hopefully taliban will form part of the ruling coalition in Afghanistan and then only some semblance of peace will come to NWFP.
For teh time being, it does not look good for Pakistan. The YLH and others of Pakistan is in a difficult position, on one side they are western educated and they feel sort of obliged to deny the presence and even the domination of extreme islamic views in the pak society, all the time blaming it on outside forces. That complicates the situation, but Pakistan having never experienced democracy, having never experienced a situation where laws can be made in tune with the aspirations of the people, have to resort to the charade.
Finally, bomb is the mill stone around Pakistan and because of it the US and others will never let Pakistan alone to find a new islamic way.
May be people like you will have to come up with a new vision for Pakistan, a moderate islamic vision, something like that in Iran. It is even likely that when the jihadis get power in Pakistan, they will moderate. But that will be a long time away, now under the US influence anything islamic is terrorist oriented, and an accommodation with the islamic parties is not viable. That si why the peace treaty in NWFP is viewed with suspicion, and I do believe that what Mushy is trying is the only viable option to stabilise Afghanistan. Hopefully taliban will form part of the ruling coalition in Afghanistan and then only some semblance of peace will come to NWFP.
For teh time being, it does not look good for Pakistan. The YLH and others of Pakistan is in a difficult position, on one side they are western educated and they feel sort of obliged to deny the presence and even the domination of extreme islamic views in the pak society, all the time blaming it on outside forces. That complicates the situation, but Pakistan having never experienced democracy, having never experienced a situation where laws can be made in tune with the aspirations of the people, have to resort to the charade.
Finally, bomb is the mill stone around Pakistan and because of it the US and others will never let Pakistan alone to find a new islamic way.
#145 Posted by zeemax on November 4, 2007 1:19:26 am
Jay Prakash,
Thank you for your honesty. I appreciate that.
And let me tell you one thing ... the YLH, Ferozk and others who live in Pakistan trying their best to create a positive image (i.e. a false pro-West image) for Pakistan are simply trying to fish in a pool of their own piss.
What they perceive Pakistan to be, is the Pakistan of a privileged few. Pakistan in fact is very different.
Above doesn't mean that it is incompatible with the West, or cannot integrate ... but simply that its Islamic identity and interests as quite separate from others have to be accepted. There is no other way.
Thank you for your honesty. I appreciate that.
And let me tell you one thing ... the YLH, Ferozk and others who live in Pakistan trying their best to create a positive image (i.e. a false pro-West image) for Pakistan are simply trying to fish in a pool of their own piss.
What they perceive Pakistan to be, is the Pakistan of a privileged few. Pakistan in fact is very different.
Above doesn't mean that it is incompatible with the West, or cannot integrate ... but simply that its Islamic identity and interests as quite separate from others have to be accepted. There is no other way.
#144 Posted by jayp on November 4, 2007 1:57:15 am
Zeemax,
Despite my posts on the side of flippancy, I do feel sad for the people of Pakistan.
Due to cruel act of destiny, they are locked in a position where they can do nothing about the situation.
The YLH, Ferozk and others who live in Pakistan have tried their best to create a positive image for Pakistan.
My heart goes out to those educated decent humans.
Regrads
Jay Prakash
P.S. No spelling mistakes in this post.
Despite my posts on the side of flippancy, I do feel sad for the people of Pakistan.
Due to cruel act of destiny, they are locked in a position where they can do nothing about the situation.
The YLH, Ferozk and others who live in Pakistan have tried their best to create a positive image for Pakistan.
My heart goes out to those educated decent humans.
Regrads
Jay Prakash
P.S. No spelling mistakes in this post.
#143 Posted by zeemax on November 4, 2007 1:54:31 am
#141 Posted by jayp,
Now for teh B52s, one does not need much of any accurate locations.
Guess not. But it's kind of disappointing they haven't worked in South of Afghanistan in getting enough Jihadis to heaven and putting NATO in their places ...
Now for teh B52s, one does not need much of any accurate locations.
Guess not. But it's kind of disappointing they haven't worked in South of Afghanistan in getting enough Jihadis to heaven and putting NATO in their places ...
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