The Empire Strikes Again in Pakistan

#157 -

I agree with you that most of the discussion here on Chowk goes far far off topic and it is a reflection of the way our society generally functions...which is why we are on the verge of being a failed state.

I have to disagree with you on one thing, which is giving Jinnah that much importance that we all have to stick to what HE wanted for Pakistan. What is he? God? I give Jinnah no particular importance and see him as just another individual in our history, who was great, yes, but no more worthy of being the sole determinant of our lives than anyone else. I believe that it is quite clear that Pakistan was formed as a Muslim country, by Muslims and we have become a bunch of stupid hypocrites by bringing this whole BS about western style democracy and secularism. We fail to understand the identity of Pakistan is as a Muslim, not a Gora mimicking "Western Secular Democracy" whatever that BS is supposed to really mean.

One of the greatest problems our country faces is the same that most nations throughout history have faced. The elite is nothing like the rest of the nation and they are totally insincere, self-righteous and monopolize the state and its resources. What Pakistan needs is for those dumb Islamic parties to get overthrown by more educated and sincere Muslims who should then lead the drive to take Pakistan where it should have been going over the last 60 years; a role model of an Islamic State. Just like Israel which was formed on the basis of religion, we must recognize that we are a Muslim state and offer citizenship/immigration to all Muslims of the world regardless of their race or language. What Malaysia is today is what Pakistan was meant to be 30 years ago and we could have been much much more by now.

I however doubt that this will be allowed to happen both by the enemies within (the Pakistani "elite") who wish to tyrannize the public with their fanatic Ataturk-ish secular demagoguery/"democracy". The enemies outside are of course, the Americans whose definition of democracy excludes the possibility of the public of another country which it has nothing to do with being allowed to express its Islamic identity. Tyranny of Secularism.

There are no variations of the basic gripe or grouse or cribbing or diatribe or balderdash or humbug or ........!!
Can someone talk the cause and walk the remedy?
From what I can discern in the multitude of cursing or polemic in the many write-ups on this forum [chowk.com], there seems to be a total lack of clarity on WHAT is wrong and WHAT needs to be done: how about starting from the premise that we require a total re-evaluation of the concept that 'parliamentary democracy' is what the doctor ordered for Pakistan? How about giving a shot at understanding what Jinnah wanted for Pakistan?
Can we suggest Chowk Editors to invite comments / views from: Janab Sharif al Mujahid , Dr. Parvez Hoodbhoy, Janab Qazi Faez al Issa, Prof Anwar Syed [his write-up, "Dealing with an emergency", DAWN, 11th November 2007, is a sort of sequel to a long list of revealing/suggestive political frame-work for Pakistan], and many other apolitical commentators.

OK replace learn with earn!!!!

Re: # 154
Skeptical those names of BB and NS were mentioned in response to the querry posed by tahmed32 re: 153. As for democracy I used the word "earned" not "learned".

Re: # 153
Once again similar NS and BB stuff.....
And let me assure you democracy does not fall from the sky....
Have I ever claimed that....
Be fair my friend....
I may be far more Skeptic than you..
You are merely targeting contradictions in individuals....
BB has no right ...
NS has no right...
corrupt blah blah....
Ok if democracy has to be learned do you learn it through purging judiciary and stall growth of institutions....
What makes you think I am pro NS and BB
in the first place.....

Re: # 151
Sure Odd Job would love to have a go at 007 once more :)
As to your other querry, yes BB and NS were bigger disasters in every possible way, they were calamitous...since the public's memory is so short, some might even remember NS's own blatant attack on the supreme court itself in his own bid to gain absolute power, (and how everyone rejoiced to see the back of that inept and corrupt dictator!)...and between the two of them BB and Mr 10% and NS they totally emptied the public's exchequer. You may or may not remember that during the tenures of our own Paki versions of Bonnie and Clyde and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (the famous outlaws of the west), the foreign exchange reserves had dwindled down to a mere few hundred thousand bucks...this is shameful...now they are above 15 billion and economy is the thing that will run the motor of a nation...of course Mushy has committed errors in handling matters in the frontier but lets hope these matters are eventually amicably sorted out...but then don't we all know who created all these Frankenstein monsters for us all? If the parties vying for democracy are themselves undemocratic they have no right to fight for democracy, because they must first purge the corrupt and inept from their midst and present clean new faces to the electorate, because presenting the same failed corrupt people, and their offspring as kings and queens is not democracy. Democracy has to be earned it will not fall from the sky on a platter for us like skeptical thinks.

tahmed32....we see you are very sincere and dedicated to the cause. Please let us know how the rally in Pindi was today and what other protest events you will be participating in.

skeptical #148 thanks. I am sure Goldfinger will see this - otherwise we will send Special Agent 007 to convince him. ;-)

#149 Were BB and NS bigger disasters than Mush? I dont think so. Terrorism did not grow by leaps and bounds under them as it did under Mush. They were removed from power, while Mush has made his unhealthy presence for 8 years and wants to stay around until God himself intervenes by making him grow old and die, as we all will do - even dictators clinging to power.

And remember that even in the 90's the military refused to do its job.

Re: # 146

So who will it be then that will not nurture one man absolute rule? Absolute misrules and not democracy ofcourse of individuals already named by tahmed32, have already been tested out a few times, which were utter disasters. So what now?

Re: # 147
I think you have made it pretty simple for people like him to understand...
Though still I do not think they will understand and even want to understand...

Goldfinger: These "wonderful institutions" will come when the "wonderful institution" ruling the country right now, i.e. the Pakistan Military, goes back doing what a national army is paid to do - i.e. is defend the nation, not take over.

No matter what the failings of BB, NS, even the mullahs - the fact is that democracy is geared to take account of human weaknesses through checks and balances to individual power. And the fact is that BB and NS in particular represent the only real political leadership in calling for the Pakistan Military officers to start doing what they are paid to do - defend the Constitution, not destroy it.

Re: # 145
certainly not by purging judiciary and strenghtening one man absolute rule!!!!

Re: # 144

So where are these wonderful institutions to come from if discussing the individuals who are supposed to nurture and people them is taboo? Fall from the sky like manna?

Re: # 143
again the same answer based upon individual expereinces...The same Bhutto, NS, BB stuff
See my post with open eyes....
I will not add anything further.....

When were we not living in a police state? Bhutto was the worst megalomaniac who helped dismember Pakistan besides committing other crookeries. Similarly the current crop of politicians are all self serving crooks of the first order. By only debarring the tested criminals and bringing in a fresh crop of faces who have some sympathy for the country and its hapless people can we hope to earn some redemption. In which civilised society of the world crooks are elected again and again to the highest office? And it is total folly to expect self serving crooks and petty thieves to come up and build yout institutions for you.