Search for Origins of Mahayana Buddhism

Life moves on and we keepon waiting fro responses which neevr come!

Re: # 294 Where gone?

Re: # 294 We are not discussing my beliefs here. we chnage our minds here if we know new things. Every moment is new moment. Read the previous interacts on hte issue.

mahfari bhai, it is unreasonable to discuss reason unmindful of the audience.

Let me know when you have gathered your 'evidence' and I will be glad to discuss your beliefs with you. Note, I will only take up your beliefs with you, not reason or logic.

Re: # 290 Dear the question is of making sense and forwarding discussion logically, not to pour scorn and to beat about the bush, hte topic was the origins of Mahayana Buddhism, and it was turned out into Muslim bashing by certain vested interest. The answer needs to be relevant, now if some one is bent upon denying rationalI think at least we should be ready to defend our point of view with rationality and reason and not with hatred and scorn!

inquirer, one doesn't have consensus with people calling the Buddha a monotheist. It is enough to point out the lies and then leave such folks free, for they will never change. Neither learning nor change is their objective.

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mahfari bhai, let me know when you have gathered your references outside of the Quran or what some believer in the Quran wrote up for your eternal reading pleasure.

(despite my well-established bigotry, my problem is not with the Quran, but solely with people like you.)

Re: # 191: nasah sahab aadaab after a long time!

scanning the interactors I found your comment! I wish people think like you!!

I would like to draw the attention of all interactors to learn a lesson from your comment!!!

Needless to say I agree with your statement a hundred per cent. But to answer your question at the end needs illumination from you. May be it will bring sense to some!!!!

Eklavya and mahfari:
Both of you have been at each other at cross-purposes for long time. Fundamental objective of interactions should be to make an effort to know what the other person has been saying and get across clearly. Two people may reach a consensus or fail to understand each other. There is really no point in arguing ad infinitum. A hundred interactions are enough!!

Re: # 288 Hom many were discussed without backing up? remember Dr . Tara Chand?

Hide? I am the most biased, bigoted person on the whole planet. I have been compared to Hitler, Mussolini, khomeini (sorry, not khomeini), martini, and lamborghini. Don't let that worry you.

You go ahead and make whatever points you wish to. Next time you attribute ridiculous statments to non-Muslims and outside of the Quran, also see if you are willing to discuss them and can back them up.

Re: # 286 Dear how far you can hide your inner bias?

array bhai, we should not refute the rational relevance of anything, be it the Quran or the Kama Sutra.

Re: # 284 I never said Quran is a final source as a reference point in discussion it is always relevant if supports the fact otherwise it may not be relevant. It may be matter of belief for Muslims.. it should be for them... but for others it is not matter of belief, but others should alos not completely refute its rational relevance whatever the case be.

mahfari bhai, glad you have found the truth, and are saved. Now, please spare the rest of us, unless you can back up your assertions without referring to what is written in the Quran or what this or that Muslim/Communist wrote. Thanks and best regards.

Re: # 282 I remmeber Bikerma Jeet's brother Bherteri Hari's great verses

phul ki patti sy kat sekta hei heray ka jiger

merd-e nadan per kalame narm o nazuk by aser!

Yea when lies are spoken persistently then lies become truth and TRUTh seems lie!

And serious debate becomes game because we are not able to acept different point of view or our personal limited views of thinking!

The tragedy of our times is that there is to much religion... May Allah save us from curse of too much religion!

mahfari #275

Please quit trying to play those childish games.

Inquirer, there is no detente. The gentleman - like ALL other people of his ilk - is lying through his teeth. You will wait forever for the references you need. And even then, nothing you say, or can say, will change his mind. Try it further with mahfari and you will see what I mean. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to play games with mahmood mahmood sort anymore.
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zee boss, I fully understand and agree, in the greater scheme of things. I am even sure mahfari and his types think they are doing humanity a huge favor by repeatedly and brazenly making things up and lying wholesale. And surely those who accept these gentlemen (and women) as normal human beings and their fables as the truth (it is uncomfortable trying to separate truth from fiction) are being helped.

But just personally, I find that approach most repulsive. That's one limit I have not crossed, and never will.

Nor have I seen you do that - deliberately lie, take the course of demonstrable untruth so you may "help the mankind." That along with clear ability to see religion as a whole system (and not the foolish view of religion as something we individually believe in and carry in our pockets), IMO, is your distinguishing characteristic.

Re: # 279

Can you see the problem with this simple set of words! (esp since it is in response to laddu and others below it).

I wonder.

Ekalvya, I would be careful here. It is like Dhritarastra's blind love for Duryodhana - which made him want to hug Bhima after Kurukshetra was over. Fortunately a statue of BHima was sent to him to hug!

Re: # 275 you see Maha_pari you are constrained in your spiritual world view. You need to go beyond theism, atheism, monotheism, and poly theism to understand.

You have taken the first few steps, flattering yes but a first step - like a a baby. Nevertheless, We will make you see the true light - that for you, there is only one way, only one way that of zeemax sahib's way.

Re: # 277 All humanity is blessed in different regards!

Re: # 273

Are you still waiting for it...you have to wait for longer....

Re: # 262

"(I remember a saying of a Hindu Jogi that in Muslims their contact with Supreme Being is usually at that level where we reach after tappasiya of 40 years!)"

I am "more" blessed than others.......the supremacist propaganda exposes their spiritual bankruptcy....no wonder Islam is so uncertain of it's spiritualism that it has to shout Allahu all the time!!

Re: # 273 It was not specific reference to his ideas, the reference came with reference to Islam's role in India. NAd Dr,. Tara Chand's book is an mazing contribution on the subject.. and eye openere for the bised souls of Sub-Continent!

Re: # 274 Dear I said give a logical and rational answer as to his being not a MONOTHEIST... I quoted the reference, you alos quote any thing from his ideas or any historical reference .

In this Universe only change is constant!

mahfari

India, in order to remain India, must constantly learn anew. And for that to happen, it must remain open to external influences. Ours must be a house with open windows, whence refreshing, revitalzing air constantly comes in. That risk we must take even though occasionally seeps in a great deal of stink, and some unwelcome thieves and luteras.

So from our point of view, only a fool would reject outside influence and acknowledging them. I am thankful that you, a Pakistani and Muslim, reminded us of the need to remain open and welcoming to external ideas and influences.

But that does not make the Buddha a monotheist.

Re: # 270: I knew Dr. Tara Chand personally through my father Pro. O. P. Bhatnagar, both of them were colleagues at History Department, Allahabad University.
Could you please provide more details of Dr. Chand's statement being discussed here?

I am sorry I am not familiar with everyone's viewpoints on the board. But I would like to welcome even perfunctory or even deficient attempts by people of various religions to discover, nay even create common points among the scriptural positions of various religions.

If we make even childish attempts to forge the common points we may succeed in initiating/developing a new paradigm for religious interactions.

No matter how unfactual such detente is the need of the hour.

Re: # 263 Please read dr. Tara Chand's Influence of Islam on Indian Culture, then truth or fallacy of Jogi;s statement will dawn upon you!

Re: # 263 Please read dr. Tara Chand's Influence of Islam on Indian Culture, then truth or fallacy of Jogi;s statement will dawn upon you!

#264 Posted by Eklavya,

Thanks Kaal, however the problem really is not who or what represents evil, but the very understanding whether there is 'evil' in the first place or not.

That would be a bit much for our friends here.

Re: # 264 EXTREMISM IN ALL FORMS IS CONDEMNABLE!

hope the previous illness is not recurring (not that I know much about it - apart from what was briefly discussed here in one or two interacts between you and the famous 32)

I know dash bhai. I am tired, exhausted, unwell, and impatient. Hopefully everything will be back to normal soon. (Thumbs up icon here).

very unlike you eklavya

mahmood mahmood

At another time, I would have taken you apart piece by piece. If god, allah, bhagwan, and hanuman will it, one day I still might. Right now I will only say, go in peace, mahmood mahmood. You will not change. Those of my friends who are waiting for you to understand and learn would unfortunately die first.

It is enough if at least some indic persons understand that 'evil' is not represented by my friend zee (who for all his reputation is ultimately a well-intentioned honest man) but by mahmood mahmood and his types.

Re: # 258 " remember a saying of a Hindu Jogi that in Muslims their contact with Supreme Being is usually at that level where we reach after tappasiya of 40 years! "


Now I understand why Ekalavya is margianly upset?

Thank you Maha_Pari for enlightening us. I have learnt a lot today.

Mahmood sahib,

(I remember a saying of a Hindu Jogi that in Muslims their contact with Supreme Being is usually at that level where we reach after tappasiya of 40 years!)

Verily, the Muslims are truly blessed!!!

Regards

Re: # 260 you failed to take a objective view of reality and compared things mere to argue for the sake of argument! I quoted reference fro his monotheism, have you any evidence to refute this? come out in open!

and try to respect difference of opinion.

Inqurier bhai, I wonder what mahfari's interest is for. It surely is not for understanding things as they are.

I bleed tears of blood being told that The Buddha was a monotheist.

At this rate, some of us will have to start preaching that Prophet Muhammd was a worshipper of shiva, and allah one of the gandharvas of arabia.

That's interest-taking, but not the interest-taking that mahfair bhai would appreciate.

We really need put an end to this kind of crap. There is no problem is staying ignorant. One doesn't need to know everything.

Re: # 214: Eklavya ji, Mahmoud is a muslim so it is creditable that he takes interest in Buddhist things. You are being a bit harsh about the content desired.

Re: # 255 thx. All sages and great minds reach on same conclusions , may be process and techniques are different, but they definitely reach at certain point o unity. I remember a saying of a Hindu Jogi that in Muslims their contact with Supreme Being is usually at that level where we reach after tappasiya of 40 years! So these are paths which lead to Ultimate Reality, the struggle is all for HIM whther by denying him or accepting HIM. He is the ONLY ONE!

Re: # 256 It is not dichotomy, think deeper, they make us to thinbk freely and liberate us from meaningless. It is not dichotomy as now no one claim that follow me as iam of divine Origins, now the message is important, the mental maturity of human beings is complete , now the evolutionary process of thinking is not marred by any NEW DIVINE intervention, it is as vast as our imagination can move,. The question of having some basic axioms as all the knolwdges have, take eample of why a trianglle has 180 degrees a circle 360 degrees ? Why they can not be otherwise. There are always certain axioms in all the fields which take us forward.

As to dichotomy, our knowledge is till that aspect , Dual nature of Particle and Hesienberg's principle of uncertainity is case in point.Freedom flows from understanding our limits.

independence of mind........how interesting.........and yet to become prophetless is like becoming an orphan....an interesting dichotomy

Re: # 237

Mahfari sahib:

I am very familiar with Rumi's elephant story and his quotes. I had found a lot of similarity between his sayings and gita.

He also said in the elephant story we only are limited by our knowledge, as each of these guys who touched the elephant were. Yes, you are correct that is how concepts evolve. I agree.

Re: # 253 Because they dare to be different and independent and it affects the balance of power in Middle east.

Re: # 251 "I remmebr gandhi Ji;s saying taht science is a sharp razor in the hands of baby! So who gave this razor to the baby? now this is least important , now issue is how to save the baby, then discuss who gave it so that it does not happen again"

Precisely....agree with you there.

as an aside tell me, your understanding, why is there a big fracas over Iraq and Iran getting the nukes?

Will check the board out later...see you in a few mos.....

Re: # 250 It was mere one point, further ... with the time we will learn. journey never stops!

Re: # 250 you are trying to mix the channel and mesage as said in modern Communication studies, the level of person who delievers message especially which has moral and real implications becomes very important . I remmebr gandhi Ji;s saying taht science is a sharp razor in the hands of baby! So who gave this razor to the baby? now this is least important , now issue is how to save the baby, then discuss who gave it so that it does not happen again. If we say no it is process let the baby die... then htere is a great great issue which needs to be tackled!

Re: # 248 you need to dig a bit more deeper than that.

Yes, vested interests is a starting point. However, it is the definition of "truth" and the ability to perhaps define "process" and "message" clearly which has resulted in the difference........

ekalavya, how time has changed you, yet not changed you.

Take care see around again.....took me sometime to recognise "ekalavya"

Re: # 245 diferences result by personal vested interests and leaving aside reason to decipher the truth!

Re: # 244 Buddha never proclaimed finality for his messages and dharma was nnever used by Buddha himslef . It were followers who developed thee ideas.

Re: # 242 aa rahi hei chah e yusuf say yeh sada daust yehan thuray hein aur bhai bahut!

take care , yea I am new on Chowk , it is my first article.

Re: # 240 a message is a message only to those who wish to see it as such. Once you discard this notion of a message than what is left in it all is the core essence of a process, where by one can attain heaven, the houris, and salvation and moksha. Why burden it with with other extraneous things?

However, I digress, what you say does have a kernel of truth in it.

Fundamental difference is in understanding or defining what is "a process" and what is a "message"? Once done, the rest follows from it. An understanding of this difference, then renders to you no more important, as a separate entity with an authoritative path, than the kaun-kiska next to you. You are then equal in most respects to the other guy. It is a willingness to be able to accept this "truth" which separates the eastern traditions (often prophetless ) to the middle eastern traditions which are prophet led.

What is interesting is why this difference in thought has come about?

mahfari # 243 is what one meant by believers needing to know what comes BEFORE order/process. For dharmic people dharma is enough, just as it was for the Buddha.

And to leave a thought behind, Buddha taught compassion, not love.

Completely different kinds of worlds, these two create.

Re: # 238 what is dharma... teachings of Buddha in Buddhism, teachings of ram and others in Hindu and sme fro jians and others in Indian Philosophy. From where Dharma comes? What are Avatars? Are concepts different and separate from the messangers or the bearers and describers of Dharma? If any one has his or her own Dharma.. then how can concepts develop? Mere perceptions canot result in collective ideas. can they?

mahfari bhai, I have to leave for now. Hopefully we will pick it up some other time.

I don't know if you are new to Chowk....but LOVE is the problem. You know, how an elephant walks, proud and unafraid, through the woundrous jungle, exploring this and that.

Then people dig huge holes for him. The elephant falls. End of exploring. End of story.

LOVE is that hole.

Anyways, later, my dear friend.

Re: # 239 do.nt be so liberal in commenting and I read intellectuals are most liberal, try to be liberal and open minded and he is a person of action and Rumi's message is love . Answer the questiosn or engage a rational debate mere mud slinging does not solve the issue!

dash, see, as unbelievers, we don't believe there is any "message" from anyone going out to anyone else, except if the 'message' is from Prophet Muhammad to people who choose to follow him.

But to be accurate, one must add that is not the believers' view.

mahfari bhai, none of that is remotely true.

Questioning and searching, for instance, is ultimately a waste of time, a path to possible error, entry into grave sin, if you know that you know the truth.

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If you wish to learn anything about Indian thought, one error you must avoid at all costs is sufism and all its variants. Sufism is a great thing, and Islamically it can be shown to be wonderfully, but from the Indian point of view, it is the greatest plague of the mind. It is the AIDS of the mind.

Read Rumi as a poet, read Rumi as a philosopher, but unlesss you are a Muslim (and unless you have already dveloped a very good understanding of Islam) don't read Rumi as a religious leader/scholar.

ekalavya, if I were you I would be careful for fear getting the Dronacharya treatment from our dear interlocutor (mahfari)!

#225 what you said is also at the core of the Gita. Despite the Gita talking of the Ultimate Power, and Krishna showing the Vishnu Roopam to his Partha, it does stress on one thing and one thing only:

God is secondary - primary is your Dharma. Dharma which can be taken as the process of achieving an end. (In this case the process also defines in a sense the means as well. This is in consonance with the Bhramha Sutra, and the various other texts.

Thus is essentially different from the Prophet Based religions (I would disagree with the term Faith-based), where emphasis is put on the Prophet First and then the message. Loose faith in the prophet, the message becomes meaningless. Whereas in the Eastern Traditions, the message is more paramount when compared to the Prophet.

Indeed, this is what has happened in the Christian West (atleast in the Anglo-Saxon world), where the message of Christ has been internalised (much as the Buddhist and other Hindu traditions in India, Buddhist in China etc).

It is this dichotomy which is cause of the troubles: Prophet and Message OR Message? Which is the question?

For example: People like Tahmed32 (and there might be many like him) on Chowk suggest that that it is Message, rather than the former. Unfortunately, this might not be the situation. OTOH you have the likes of Agha Amin (in other articles) who have suggested that neither seems to be holding.

Ultimately - it is the message which is more important (at least for me) - you can call it the process if you like.

Re: # 232 Dear Anil

I remember Rumi ( God Bless HIm) on this occasion . In his Masanvi He says that a king in old times brought an elephant from a far land and he tied it in a big room and then it was for people to go in the room and see the strange animal.One person went he touched his trunk and said oh it is like a python! other went he touched its ears he said Oh it is like a big big fan! third went he touched its legs and said oh it is like a big big pole! and the fourth went and he touched its abdomen area and he said oh it is like a very very big buffalo! they all came together and every one of them said that his description was the correct one and they began to grumble and fight with each other. A wise person asked them why they were fighting they told the reason, Then he said if you all had taken a lamp and seen that in the light then you would have known that the elephant is made up of all these ideas and it si different thing. then your knowledge would have been corect adn based upon truth and reality. So Rumi says taht reason ( Aqal) is that light which helps us to understand the reality. So the jacket size and tailor mood may be different but the use of reason endows us with to share and learn concepts and ideas with equal understanding and sharing... because when every person has his or her own jacket and tailor these things are perceptive , and when they move towards reasoning and thinking then they develop into concepts ... the real thinking process, the unique attribute of human beings. So from perceptions to conception is the process and journey of learning1 is not our time the real time for this journey?

The process of thinking can be studied in any modern book of biology in sections of brain and thinking along with psychology books; especially with reference to process of understanding and thinking from perceptions to conception. Perception is individual , conception is for humanity! perception is for a moment , concepts are for ever as Ghalib said hasti ky fareb mein mat aa jayu asad alim e tamam halqa -e - dam e khayal mein hei

Re: # 233 when ever we want to learn and know about new things then we should think that before we did,nt knew any hting. questioning and trying to search questions and wisdom behind all happenings is the essence of learning!

Re: # 234 well said !

How did we know that we do not know Y , while knowing X? Is.nt it also knowing Y along with X?

oh, that should have been...
"If Anil ji chooses to explain things, you might want to listen to him, for he is a much much better Hindu and Indian than I am."

sorry.

Well, that's good. But mere bhai, infinite learning is not possible. One may imagine for instance, that if one knows X, one may not know Y. So learning and unlearning have to work together, in tandem. A lot of what we call science too works that way.

When it comes to Islam (and Muslims) and Indian thought (and Indians), there can be no learning without unlearning a great deal first.

IF that kind of stuff interests you, one day we can definitely discuss it. Thanks.
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By the way, if Anil ji chooses to explain things, he is a much much better Hindu and Indian than I am. :)

Re: # 226

mahfari sahib:

"Re: # 225 then why in Bhagwat Geeta there is mention of an all embracing power?"

Dharma the way it is mentioned in Geeta and elsewhere is a concept. In reality it may be viewed to translate into a Customized Jacket that envelops you or you wear.

The jacket defines it concept, but is different for each wearer. Your size, color you prefer, fabric you want etc. etc. But still it is a jacket. Over a period of time, many tailors of Dharma jacket came and tried to create sizes people can fit in, much like you can buy a jacket in say Macy's.

Based on such a concept Dharma, many fundamentalist Hindus believe that even Islam fits into Hindu Dharma, as it is one of the possible customized jacket that can envelop an individual.

For obvious reason, according to their views, Islam has stricter rules, size of a customized jacket.

Dharma has very few rules / laws, unlike Islam, to define what can be called a jacket, and no pants. Conflict with these fundamentalist hindus come, when they want to reject the community oriented laws and rules in Islam.

Dharma is all about indivdual freedom and discipline (truth, soul(formless energy), death and life cycle(form and substance), karma etc.). Each of these fundamental concepts, Krishna has defined to be himself to become (except for Karma). He has used terms like - "I am truth, I am death, I am formless, I can take form etc. etc." Other than these fundamental concepts little else defines the concept of this customizable Dharma jacket.

Many humans indeed wear a real jacket and envelope themselves in a religion - a set of belief system. They cannot wear the concept. Hence you see many Hindu jackets, and many Hindu tailors.

Re: # 230 please elaborate these points. We all are always learning new realities evry moment.

mahfari, yes, that is a basic fault of mine. I just know. And what I don't know, I humbly try to learn. Sorry about that.

Re: # 227 Please also read interact 216

Re: # 227 How easily you are pronouncing upon the bases of disciples of Buddha's; that he did not believe in God. where is evidence in Buddha;s teachings?

mahfari bhai, remember, I mentioned the Indian approach earlier: there were (and continue to be) some very basic common Indian ideas. On top of that, different teachers built different approaches.

The idea that the Ultimate Reality (or Power) is unknown and unknowable is a basic idea. The Geeta belongs to a different tradition than does the Buddha.

The Geeta does try to concern itself with that Ultimate Power or Reality, not the Buddha. The Buddha represented a long line of Indian thinkers who simply ignored that Reality or Realities. These traditions were entirely 'HUMAN.'

What may be more useful to you, the Geeta has more in common with Islam (although that commonality too would be an absurdity, all in itself), than does the Buddha.

Re: # 225 then why in Bhagwat Geeta there is mention of an all embracing power?

tahmedji, that's quite right. That's the name we got by luck and default, since people of the indus, for whatever reasons, did not think it necessary to press a claim. :)

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Dash bhai, no, one doesn't need them. That's the whole thing of the dharma - it is about order, right process, right human ends, not really what lies behind or before human processes, order etc.

But dash bhai, that is a very very non-faith based view. To us Easterners - Indians, chinese etc - that is an obvious - almost self-evident - truth, but faith-based thinkers would (and should) reject that out of hand. They need a creator who sets the process going. Without such a creator (or such creators), they expect nothing but complete chaos (because they would not see any justification for any specific order, or any specific process).

Eklavya: "ancient India" was areas forming Pakistan - the term being derived from the river indus, these areas being settled for thousands of years before mankind moved further east to what is now india. but you can use the name - long before the name hollywood had been copied to become bollywood, the indus valley had been copied to become india. :-)

#221 Posted by Eklavya on December 11, 2007 5:31:16 am
majumdar, yes. The Buddha was concerned about the PROCESS of living, not what gods upstairs or devils below the earth were doing.

A quick question: once you understand the process, do you really need the devils(God) upstairs or Hades downstairs?

Once you understand the process of Rain Creation damendif you will believe in the rain_god (or that God created Rain)

(or maybe I am wrong)

Re: # 221Dear all the humanity is our heritage and do,nt be desperate! wisdom is not any one's personal property! There is saying of our Holy prophet ( peace be upon him) that wisdom is lost property of Muslims , so get it from where ever you can get it. and another saying Go to China for seach of knowledge. how can you restrict the beuty to one tradition only? TRUTH is not heritage of only one person!

His ideas were inspired by certain states of the process, it does not mean that he ignored all other things! If he did,nt bother about devils and gods ... may be fro the sake of discussion... but his followers did and they still do... I think that realy matters. does not it?

majumdar, yes. The Buddha was concerned about the PROCESS of living, not what gods upstairs or devils below the earth were doing.

mahfari bhai, please ignore me. I just don't have the heart to discuss this with you.

If you would care, I would advise you stay with reading the Quran and understanding Islam. There is enough beauty and goodness within that tradition. Leave the rest. Particularly anything to do with ancient India. That's not for you.

Re: # 214 Let us try to separate trash from reality1

Re: # 215 the followers of Buddha have this idea and some even deny its existance even, but as to Buddha;s ideas refer to interact 216.

differentiation of origination of ideas is neccassary to understand evolution of ideas... especially in the case of Leader and their followers to make things clear and of rigth perspective.

Re: # 214 To Question of Monotheism of Buddha refer to interact 216.

As to Nihayana and Hinayana refer to my interact previously submitted.

As to difference of Mahayana and Hinayana/nihayana . the difference was that old school of Buddhism believed in only one Buddha who atatined nirvana and who will ensure the of his followers. As to origins of Mahayana it was aimed at atatining Buddhahood and Nirvana by any one who could follow the teachings of Buddha and it used idols of Buddha to attain thta ideal. If you have differnet undestanding please let us discuss, do not self praise yourself without sharing the information and knowledge(if any) you have !
Let us learn mutually and explore the ideas, come present ideas and then let us share them and KNOWLEDGE AND IDEAS are not heritage of any single race, ethnicity or creed. Many people ,, rather majority do not belive in Brahmanism of thought and ideas!

come in open let us discuss, and do not hide ignorance under the garb of name calling!

Re: # 211 Thx fro appreciation , Buddha's messge has many diverse acets. I hope to cover thoe in any other article .
Regards.

Re: # 212 Dear in India for more than 7 centuries Persian was official language and language of intellectuals, and whole literature of more than 100 years is in Persian, Arabic and Urdu . The present Hindi was developed by British in 1800 in Fort William college Calcutta.

And Futuh-Al Baldan is not Holy Quran ... it is a book of history written in 8th/9th Century please read the interact carefully.

And you are right Holy Quran is not a proof for non.Muslims, even Holy Quran does not claim it for muslims to blindly accept its facts, it asks to use mind and heart!

historical sources are correct till proven wrong or when all the evidences prove the facts contrary to the position stated ... so refute the evidence . Do,nt misunderstand it with sacred Text... sacredness is only fro followers not for others, but it does not mean that it can be totally ignored because we differ with the ideas of persons who believe in it.

As to His Monotheist , I remember late Ishfaque Ahmed one of great intellectuals of Pakistan had Buddha's statutes in his drawing room , the young people who went to meet him were amazed and asked why you being a Sufi ;have placed idols in your house?

Ishfaque Sahib smiled and said One person asked Buddha Do you believe in Allah , he was lost in thought and reamined silent... the questioner concluded Buddha did not believe in God ! why not His silence was taken as YES instead of NO? and where Buddha explicitly denies existance of ALLAH/GOD? Have you any evidence and text from his preachings?

I have quoted the oldest source to say he believd in ALLAH? So give evidence , do not resort to name calling and false superiority of knowledge (without its evidence)to refute the rational argument. USe rational, do not resort to bias!

Kaal bhai,

My understanding of Buddhism is that it is indifferent to the existence of Gods- essentially that Man's job is to get salvation (nirvana) it is immaterial whether God (one or many) exists or not. Is this right?

Regards

Inquirer bhai, let's not puff up the poor fellow. The pictures are good, and there may be some value in given descriptions of sculptures, but it is hard to imagine a person peddling worse trash everytime the author begins to speak of Buddhism itself.

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Buddha believed in monotheism.

Hinayan (spelled as nahayana - the boat of the author's ablutions) meant that the Buddha would personally take people to nirvana.

Can any sane person even read further?

Verily, people should NOT try to understand things that are so different from anything they have seen or heard. It's not the author's fault that he is talking nonsense.

Very interesting article, particularly the summation of Hinayan and Mahayan. I wish the article had the analytical vs. descritive depth. This notwithstanding avery enjoyable snippet.

"And fro Buddha the oldest reference available is Futuh- Al Baldan of Baladhuri 8th century which mentions that He was a monotheist."

mahfari bhai, please remind me to commit suicide before I discuss religion with you. I might just take the plunge.


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mere baap, please understand. What is written or said in the Quran is no proof for a non-Muslim. Hope you understand that that statement is made most respectfully.

Thank you very much author for this wonderful article and excellent historical photographs.

To me Buddhism is the most evolved and most mature of all the Philosophies, which human minds could create in the realms of religions and ideologies.

It talks about self analysis, self responsibility and self discovery rather than "pretending" to be doing good things in order to please God or "hypocritically" not hurting others due to fear of police or hell fire.

Re: # 208 Diversity was always here, we just needed to look for it! and all are students here and perhaps teachers also! So let us keep learning and teaching also!

Re: # 207 In holy Quran it is mentioned that Allah did not spare any village and town of earth where he did not send His prophets peace be upon them. And fro Buddha the oldest reference available is Futuh- Al Baldan of Baladhuri 8th century which mentions that He was a monotheist , and later His followers turned Him into an idol! He never practiced or preached this ! The theme of this article as art and sculpture in Buddhism was practiced in Gandhara more than 400 years after Buddha's departure from this mortal world!


and as far as Muhammad peace be upon him is concerned HE peace be upon hm is unique, He was the Last of the Prophets peace be upon them and he perfected the message of Allah as now Human intellect is able enough to decide its own course , now no need for divine guidance after HIm peace eb upon.

Is there idolatory when we read portions of Bhegwat Gita?


and as far as Sufism is concerned , this path wil remain open till last day , and me being Sufi.... hanuz Delhi dur asat and it is not my prediliction till now as per future Allah knows better!

It is a bit funny being taught the lesson of diversity here. LOL

mahfari bhai, one can have no problem accepting your understanding/memory of what Caliph Ali said (assuming you later don't turn out to be a man of sufi predilections), but please don't tell us that there were prophets like Prophet Muhammad in India.

Or, may be, there were, and we were just too stupid or too evil to notice.

Re: # 203

it is not question of persons , every civilization has its contribution to human civilization.

There were also Prophets peace be upon them in India also. it are the followers of those Prophets peace be upon them who changed theri message and for personal purpose change the religious edicts and message.

Human creativity is not heritage of any one person or area!

In the end all human beings are creted from Adam and Eve --- blessings be upon them.

There is saying of Caliph Ali ( God Bless him) that do,nt say who is saying, see what he is saying! Solet us try as a human beings to understand the realities and truths hidden deep beneath to strive for new horizons!

Things move and only change is constant in this universe!

Re: # 202

Dear Santani

Northern Pakistan is a new name for the area. It was never named as part of India , and who gave India its present name? Muslims... read Al-Beruni!

chinese called Gandhara area as Xi Tian Western Paradise and the remaining India in ancient times as Du Shen ( du is word for drugs and virus in Chinese and Shen is for Body... it was named due to sultry weather of India (See Travels of Xuan Zhuang)

This phobia for all being Hindus was the driving force which divided India , when congress failed to accept cabinet Mission Plan.

Alas desire for imaginary wolrds is a perpetual illusion in human history.

Re: # 202 Dear Santani
why do you want to prove always that diversity is not possible?

and why it is important to differ by naming your opponents?

Why India takes pride in Taj Mahal?


Why there is problem in accepting the reality of Indai being multi-lingual, multi religious, and multi-idea country?

Why to insist on imposing the Brahmanical interpretation of religion on India?

Pakistan is not a term denoting purity or for the followers of Islam only. Its name has been taken from geographical areas comprising the land where Muslims abound and fortunately or unfortuantely these are areas where Buddhism in originality flourished.


Why to amalgamaate South Indian and North Indian ideas of religion?

India was never a single religious entity! Was it?

sanatani, there must be something deeply wrong with Hindus and Hinduism if they have never been able to and still cannot produce a Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and/or a Pius the XI (no comparison between the two is intended or implied, directly or indirectly, lest different people be upset for different reasons).

IMHO, there is no schizo ism in writing mecca not mohenjodaro at one moment and claiming Bhagwan Budh the next. It's the two aspects of the same political domination.

Schizo ism resides in liberal Hinduism that insists that both Prophet Muhammad and Pius the XI (again no similarity is intended) be treated just like all other religious leaders, yet quickly and blindly denounces any effort to promote leaders like these two great men.

This is the unique aspect of the Buddhist religious pantheon in "Northern Pakistan".

Are trying to be a joker. How is it Norther Pak when Pak did not exist at that time. Even if we acept Pak came into being when the first Sindhi accepted Islam then also what happened in "Northern Pakistan" (which was actually Northern India at that point of time) predates your land of the pure by anywhere from 1200-2000 years so it is hardly Pakistan which had this wonderful civilization but India.

At best you could say This is the unique aspect of the Buddhist religious pantheon of India which now resides in Northern Pakistan. (And repeat that ad nauseaum in all your posts).

Also on what basis are you Schizos now claiming affinity with Bhagwan Budh esp your other compatriots have writtens gems like Mecca not Mohenjodaro and that clown Aitzaz Hasan talking about Indic and Gangetic Civilisations.

The Budh started in Bihar (firmly Gangetic) and then reached Trans Oxus that takes care of the Indus as also the same being part of India.

You know where we lost:

1) Hindu society could not give an apporpriate theological response to Islam (in the fact it did not bother to refute Islam's claim of being a religion when it actually is a murderous and schizophrenic political philosophy).

2) It stopped caring for its sons and daughters who had been forced to convert and became more inward looking.

3) No Shankracharya donned the role of Pius the XI and no Prince became Charles Martel

Sanatani

mahfari bhai

I will make just one comment on this because I don't believe Hindus and Muslims can communicate on many fundamental matters (history being one of them) unless they first create a symmetrical language. Unfortunately, thanks to Hindu liberals that seems to be an impossibility for now. And, to be accurate, one must include Hindu communists among Muslims, despite Muslim's justifiable contempt for communists - communism being a childish form of Islam. Communism is a great folly but without Allah it gets downright ridiculous and hopeless.

-----------

Here is how it goes, and I had tried to explain it once to aasif bhai as well, unsuccessfully I am sure.

The way things worked in India, there were always fierce debates and controversies in India on matters of religion, spirituality etc. There were many common ideas popular among the masses, but on top of those ideas were built different and varying traditions and philosophies by innumerable different teachers (not prophets - there is a HUGE difference between the two concepts that cannot be in any way overlooked).

ALL these teachers presented their own particular points of view, and constantly and quite openly criticized some or all of others.

Criticism of RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHIES by those who disagreed with them was a FUNDAMENTAL religious trait and tradition in Pre-Nehru India.

Just like all others, Buddhists criticised Brahmins and Brahmins criticized Buddhists. Where Buddhists grew in numbers, brahmins lost some of their power (although not always, because none of the Indian traditions, not Buddhism even, were totally exclusivist, and an Indian could very easily pay respects to the Buddha AND to the Brahmins (assuming the latter were not going around raping young women. Examples abound of many kings, including the great Kanishka, following that very Indian tradition).

So it is quite possible that a king like shashank (and I have no idea who he was, for he was no great name like the Kanishka) went and demolished some stupas and persecuted Buddhists IF there was poliitical rivalry. This much Shashank would surely have done even if many of his own people, or even his family, held the Buddha or the Buddhists in great regard.

So if you take a situation wherein large numbers of lay people and kings and queens and nobles in India respected buddhists and revered the Buddha as their own, and some of them destroyed Buddhist symbols and suppressed Buddhist leaders (particularly if you could see a political conflict behind such acts), then you cannot conclude that non-Buddhist Indians ("Hindus" to Muslims and communists) went around destroying Buddhism and slaughtering Buddhists.

That would be as stupid as arguing that M. Ghaznavi had any religious inspiration for his religious generosities toward Indians and their religious places had he been a worshipper of the Shiva himself.

----------------

It is true that hostility of many brahmins was perhaps one of the major causes of decline in Buddhism. They actively promoted ideologies that went against the grain of Buddhism.

As a brahmin (born, at least) who considers the Buddha as the ultimate in goodness, and as one of the best and brightest humans ever born anywhere, I can tell you, I do not, quite humbly, think Buddhism is a complete religion. It did not (and does not) know how to deal with aggressive active evil. In eschewing war and violence and promoting ONLY goodness it made a 'mistake' that a more natural religion like Islam would NEVER EVER make (In fact no prophet-oriented religion can ever be remotely like Buddhism).

As such Buddhism weakened itself considerably. Both politically and philosophically. And evolution is a cruel beast. It eats the softest first. That is a profound tragedy for those who insist of associating goodness with softness.

Re: # 194 Dear Kamath I hope that you will read it again and let me know if the rrecird has been set straight or not! As to about others questions , let us wait and see!

Thx for the comments.

Re: # 198notes did,nt come again sorry ! I paste them again.
1.It has issue of nomenclature as some assert that it is Hinayana and some name it as Nihayana
2.See the oxford companion to Indian Art
3. I have seen the various phases of these stories depicted in sculpture at various levels and in different phases in Museums of Peshawar, Taxila and Lahore. This is an amazing experience and it also sheds light on the status of women in these areas and in Buddhist traditional philosophy.
4. Murals of dun Huang are the reality of this fact.
5.Cultural flow Between China and Outside World Throughout History By Shen Fuwei foreign Language Press Beijing
6. Many narrative accounts of Buddhism’s decline and eventual disappearance from the land of its faith have been focused on Buddhism’s relations with Hinduism or Brahmanism. Nearly 20 years ago the historian S. R. Goyal wrote that "according to
many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one of the major causes of the decline of Buddhism in India." The Saivite king, Shashanka, invariably appears in such histories as a ferocious oppressor of the Buddhists, though the single original source for all subsequent narratives about Shashanka’s ruinous conduct towards Buddhists remains Hsuan Tsang. Shashanka is reported to have destroyed the Bodhi tree and ordered the destruction of Buddhist images. Hindu nationalists appear to think that many Muslim monuments were once Hindu temples, but partisans of Buddhism are inclined to the view that Hindu temples were often built on the site of Buddhist shrines.
Buddhism’s Disappearance from India By Vinay Lal
7. Cultural flow Between China and Outside World Throughout History By Shen Fuwei foreign Language Press Beijing

8. This difference is still valid and it is evident from the official policy of Dalai Lama and Chinese Government on the issue.

again stressed it deals about origins of Mahayana School of Buddhism

Re: # 194Gandhara art, sculpture development, evolution of Mahayana School of Buddhism

The land of Pakistan is blessed with the vast treasure troves of the world and one of the most important treasures is the glorious civilization of Buddhism flourishing in the North Western areas of Pakistan. The mountains of these areas are witness to one of the highly creative ideology springing from Buddha’s teachings taking refuge in the mountains from Karakorum in Chilas to Pir Panjal Mountains near Taxila.
The Buddhism flourished in these regions after the Ashoka embraced Buddhism after the war of Kalinga. There was one school called Nihayana,(it is also called Hinayana) the smaller ferry which believed that the great Buddha will take all the followers to Nirvana . But as it is a norm for many religions of antiquity, the followers of Buddha in Pushklavati and Takshala valley developed the sculpture to adjust with the demands of basic philosophy of Mahayana.

These valleys saw the growth of Buddhism from traditional view of Nirvana to more liberal expression of personal element of involvement in a spiritual way.

These valleys saw the emergence of Mahayana school of Buddhism which is the larger ferry and it said that there was possibility for many persons to get Nirvana and reach up to Buddha hood, this idea introduced the development of sculpture and taking guidance from the Maha Buddha called Sakaymuni in Chinese and Tibetan Buddhist tradition.

This gradually resulted in development of Gandhara Sculpture based upon the Pali literature of Buddhism based upon Tri Jatakas and Tri Patakas (three baskets, and three bags respectively). This literature is the story of Mahavera Buddha in different phases of life and in this the natural gift of depicting the figures and paintings of the situation developed and this opened the gate for idols and sculptures of a marvelous beauty, proportion and originality in its execution and imagination.

The bronze sculpture of Gandhara is the most original and creative phenomenon which was rage in the first centuries of first millennium. This is the unique aspect of the Buddhist religious pantheon in Northern Pakistan as in Southern India the oldest Buddhist temples of 5th century AD have no sculpture rather they have the lotus flower and its depiction as the Nirvana aspect of Mahavera.

The sculpture of Gandhara has variety of the ideas based upon Jatakas and Patakas and it describes the whole story of Gautama’s life from his palace to the place of his Nirvana under a peepal tree. The tree of peepal and lotus have sacred valuation in the Buddhist tradition as they are considered to be linked with the life of Gautama in inseparable manner at the most crucial stages of his spiritual evolution and transformation. This aspect can be studied in detail in the sculpture tablets and other artifacts of Gandhara in Peshawar Museum, Taxila Museum, Lahore Museum, and other places where the Gandhara art is preserved.

The Gandhara art is basically the expression of Mahayana school of thought which later on traveled from Swat, Kashmir through the famous Silk Road to Xin Jiang in China.

The sculpture which traveled from Pakistan to China has drastically changed especially in its material and shape. The most amazing difference is between physique, in China the Buddha has healthy, Chinese and localized features and with more stress on the face and expression whereas in Gandhara art the whole bodily expression and fasting of Buddha is explained in more detail and personalized spiritual expression.
This is at its peak in the Fasting Buddha , in the custody of Lahore Museum. See below figure 5 ,the fasting Buddha which is the representative art of Gandhara . This shows the control of artistic expression and observation of human physical situation in the ultimate state of Nirvana . This is blend and mosaic of physical endurance and bliss of Nirvana in a multidimensional , passionate way. This sculpture captures the strength, depth, variety, uniqueness and individuality of spiritual elation and awakening in pinnacle of Buddhist journey of spirit.

The varieties of Buddha along with Stupas are expressions of richness of Buddhist legacy in Pakistan. The art of Gandhara is innovative, local and as asserted by many western scholar that the technique is inspired by Greek is not borne by facts, as to its originality of idea and usage of bronze as basic material in production of sculpture.

The imagination, development and evolution of Gandhara art is interwoven with the advent of Mahayana school in Buddhism which flourished in early centuries in the Pushklavati and Takshala valleys in early millennium.

The journey of Jatakas and Patakas from Pakistan to China is a cultural assimilation between the areas of Pakistan and China. This was the most important cultural, historical and deep religious exchange in the history of this area.

The translation of Buddhist literature has saved the treasures of Buddhist tradition to posterity, which later on traveled to Japan , Korea, Thailand and other regions of Far East . It also enriched the vocabulary of Chinese and developed a whole new religious terminology. The Silk Road has its trade value but the journey of Jatakas and Patakas to China is the most enduring legacy of the glorious mountains.

The icon of this cultural transmission is Xuan Zhuang, the Buddhist monk who traveled in the last stages of Gandhara Civilization, which had been destroyed by zealot Hindu resurgence under the Guptas (325-497 AD).

But the literature of Buddhism was translated by him in the Tang dynasty and in Tang dynasty of China the Buddhism was adopted by elites of China. It was a tang Princess who took the Buddhist religion to Tibet. In Tibet the Buddhism Mahayana developed its own attributes and Lamas were the practitioners of this Tibetan and Chinese Buddhism. In Tibet it developed its own contours of Lama Buddhism with Shambhala at its forefront. In Chinese mainland it has its own attributes differing with Tibetan Buddhism due to political and cultural differences.
The Mahayana is linked with Gandhara and its evolution is depicted in art, Patakas and Jatakas with help of figurative art in creative way and manner. This association is the basic idea which helps us to appreciate and understand the growth and flourishing of sculpture and related artifacts in Gandhara.
The dominant theme was by the different poses, postures of Buddha. T his is unique in the individualistic respect of Buddha as there is no other person depicted except in subdued manner. (See figure 4, 1)

The theme of meditation is developed in a very relaxed, calm, individualistic way in Gandhara art as shown in figure 7. These sculptures show the spiritual elation and calmness in a refined and passionate manner with deep peace on the face of Buddha. These sculptures show the personal devotional attitude of artisans of Gandhara.

It has issue of nomenclature as some assert that it is Hinayana and some name it as Nihayana
See the oxford companion to Indian Art
I have seen the various phases of these stories depicted in sculpture at various levels and in different phases in Museums of Peshawar, Taxila and Lahore. This is an amazing experience and it also sheds light on the status of women in these areas and in Buddhist traditional philosophy.
Murals of dun Huang are the reality of this fact.
Cultural flow Between China and Outside World Throughout History By Shen Fuwei foreign Language Press Beijing
Many narrative accounts of Buddhism’s decline and eventual disappearance from the land of its faith have been focused on Buddhism’s relations with Hinduism or Brahmanism. Nearly 20 years ago the historian S. R. Goyal wrote that "according to
many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one of the major causes of the decline of Buddhism in India." The Saivite king, Shashanka, invariably appears in such histories as a ferocious oppressor of the Buddhists, though the single original source for all subsequent narratives about Shashanka’s ruinous conduct towards Buddhists remains Hsuan Tsang. Shashanka is reported to have destroyed the Bodhi tree and ordered the destruction of Buddhist images. Hindu nationalists appear to think that many Muslim monuments were once Hindu temples, but partisans of Buddhism are inclined to the view that Hindu temples were often built on the site of Buddhist shrines.
Buddhism’s Disappearance from India By Vinay Lal
Cultural flow Between China and Outside World Throughout History By Shen Fuwei foreign Language Press Beijing

This difference is still valid and it is evident from the official policy of Dalai Lama and Chinese Government on the issue.



Bibliography

1. Cultural flow Between China and Outside World Throughout History By Shen Fuwei foreign Language Press Beijing.
2. Different Issues of History Magazine Historical Society of Pakistan Karachi.
3. Pakisatn Ki Tarekh (URDU) By Rashid Akhter Nadvi
4. Pakistan Ki Tarekh (URDU) Volume.1 Yahya Amjad
5. Taxila By Dr. Hasan Dani
6. Oxford Histroy of Indian Art
7. Indian History V.A Smith Oxford University Press
8. The wonder that was India A.L Basham
9. Futuh-al- Baldan (URDU) By Baladhuri
10. Tarekh-e Mewat (URDU) By Habib-ur Rehman
11. History of India as Told by its own Historians Ed. Elliot & Dowson
12. Oxford Companion to Archeology
13. Travels of Xuan Zhuang

It is with notes, small bibliography and some editing, and it is about Origins of Buddhism 's Mahayana school and other issues we will talk later insha allah!

Re: # 194 Read it carefully, its topic was not given by me, but by editors, and I have e-mailed them to change its topic. I am not so naive to consider origins of Buddhism to be lying in present day Pakistan!
It refers to the bases of origins of Mahayana Buddhism in south Asia.

about notes and bibliography you are right. I am referring these in another interact now.

In fact, some of us may recall, a few of us had briefly discussed how Buddhism represented the most developed form of an important and vibrant tradition going back to Bhagwan Kapila (and his pithy sutra), or even the Sankhya school. Regards.

In general, though, you would expect, most non-Indian thought to imagine as if Buddhism appeared on Indian soil out of nowhere. That's natural thinking among the "revelationary" school, wherein some fellow sitting upstairs supposedly sends down knowledge to us ignorants in discrete, separate, and quite rare spurts.