Search for Origins of Mahayana Buddhism

The lesser vehicle in Buddhism is the Hinayana, perhaps Nahayana was typo. Nice pictures.

What happened to this great religion where it originated

Good Pictures but you are an inaccurate at one place.

The Buddha did not achieve Nirvana during his fasting. Rather, he stopped fasting after he heard a music teacher teach his pupil in the boat with this saying, "If you tighten the string too hard, it will break, and if you dont tighten it enough, it will not play".

For Buddha, Pratittya Samutpada is the basis of "Samsara" and is one of the "Sats" that humanity must admit. The entire philosophy of Buddhism is based upon the notion of "Samsara" and the cycle of existence that gets unleashed due to karmas and sankalpas. Violence begets its fruits and even Mohamamad must have suffered the fruits of his violent karmas. There is NO intercession by any Allah.

Pakistani situation is a clear example of pratitya samutpada - the hatred of TNT come back to haunt the very proponents. The more Pakistan Islamizes, the more it gets farther from the very philosophy of Buddhism that existed on its soil till it was decimated in typical Islamic genocide.

Any way , thanks for showing those unbroken "buts" that were not disfigured by mistake by the zealots who conquered that region.

jainism, budhism and sikhism did come into being to relieve hinduism.Of ITS CASTE system and contributed by influence to Hinduism and in turn became minority overwhelmed by hinduism continuence & INCORPORATION in 4th&5th century c.e. by hindu renniasence..

Mahmood sahib,

I have heard a theory that the Muslim word for statue "But" is derived from the fact that the first statues they saw was that of Buddha (But was corrupted form of Buddha). Is that true or only fanciful?

Mystic,

(overwhelmed by hinduism continuence & INCORPORATION in 4th&5th century c.e. by hindu renniasence..)

As far as incorporation is concerned, you would no doubt be aware that Buddha became an avatar of Vishnu.

Laddu,

What is wrong with the TNT?

Regards

Re: # 6

TNT is the dar-ul-harbic view of cultural "identity" so clear in the famous remark of Jinnah that the two nations exists in every gali and muhallahs of muslim neighbourhood!!
The very notion of a "pureland" is based upon exclusion of naji idoaltors.

Re: # 5

You need to read more about Buddhism as a philosophical system before you regurgitate the usual Paki Dawah propaganda!!

Porus, king of the area between the Hydaspes and the Acesines rivers, in India, met Alexander the Great at the Battle of the Hydaspes River in June 326 B.C. Porus brought war elephants with him that terrified the Greeks and their horses. In time, Alexander's troops gained the upper hand and the elephants stampeded their own troops. King Porus surrendered to Alexander

Indians are a peculiar race. India ignores and forgets.[7] “It is a conspiracy of silence.” “India remained unchanged. The wounds of battle were quickly healed: the ravaged fields smile again.[8] “No Indian author, Hindu or Jain or Buddhist makes even the faintest allusion to Alexander or his deeds,” asserted V.A. Smith, and he quotes with approval the lines by Matthew Arnold:


We next come to one of the most interesting facts of history. Chandra Gupta Maurya, the first Emperor of India, while yet a boy, had seen Alexander “the invincible splendid man from the West.” “Later on when he became a great King, Chandra Gupta worshipped Alexander among his Gods.”[26] It appears a curious fact that a Hindu King paid divine honours to a foreign prince whom he had himself beheld.

Re: # 9
"Indians are a peculiar race. India ignores and forgets."

On the other hand I would charge the Pakistanis to be "peculiar" who want to feign amnesia of the rich harappan, hinu, buddhist and jain past by talking about a "contrived" history that starts with Mohammad Ghouri!!!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Majumdar

there is no language called 'Muslim'... there are various laguages spoken by people who are Muslim by faith... In Urdu and most other South Asian languages the word for statue is Moorti... Buth Purust is the name given to the followers of Buddha (in Urdu) buth i presume came from budh...

Re: # 6 This word indeed has origins in Buddha , and it originated from the present day Afghanistan and the Great Buddhas of Bamiyan were present there since ages and early Muslims did,nt destroy them. it was extremism and unfounded zeal of Taliban Government which resulted in their unwanton and reckless destruction.

As to b'ut being a word for Idol, it was not initially menat in the old Urdu and related Persian literature, it was used for beautiful and of splendid features.

Re: # 11

http://www.hindunet.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=77813&Main= 77813

and / or

which carries it from


http://murugan.org/research/gopalapillai.htm

Re: # 1Yea the most popular name is Hinayna, but it is also named as Nihayana, and it is also translated as smaller consciousness.

The difference is of bases as mahayana is the origin of sculpture with figure of Buddhain Gandhara and it is the bases of mahayana religious schol in buddhist tradition.

Thanks for an informative article. I have often felt that it is time that Pakistanis reclaim their heritage and since the word Hindu is still an anathema, Buddhism is a good starting point.

This is for the first time that I have read the word Nahayana for Hineyana Buddhism. I am also not sure if your interpretation of Hineyana is quite correct. My understanding is that in both branches of Buddhism, the path to Nirvana is getting rid of one's desires - following someone to heaven is an Abrahmic concept, indic faiths place responsibility on one's karma.

I believe that the gandhara art is infulenced to a great extent by Greek art and the figures resemble Greek figures to a large extent.

The article also displays innate biases and ignorance of Pakistanis. Buddhism was not destroyed by zealot Hindus. In fact, Buddha never renunciated the religion of his birth - this was not necessary as the local culture allowed and encouraged plurality of thought. Buddha was never attacked or humiliated by his people and his was merely a 'panth' a dfferent path among many that flourished in that land at that time (I doubt if the word Hindu even existed at that time, at least in the sense of a religious faith). As for as which zealots destroyed the religion, it was the religion of the but-shikans and the evidence is there from Nalanda to Bamyan to the more recent destruction of the Buddhist icons in Pakistan. As for Hindus, they assimilated (not destroyed) Buddhism by making Buddha one of their avtars. Indeed many Buddhist temples were built by the Hindus, as is the most important one in Delhi next to Birla Mandir and built by the Hindu industrialist Birla. To the extent that Buddhists were "converted" (the concept is again alien in the Indic context) this was largely done by Shankaracharya in the tenth century by largely incorporating many aspects of Buddhism, such as vegetarainims, into Hinduism.

But one should not blame Pakistanis for believing that Hindu zealots destroyed by Hindu zealots. This "discovery" was made by India's establishment-sponsored JNU type "secular" historians to promote hindu-muslim same-same concept.

[Re: # 15Yea the most popular name is Hinayna, but it is also named as Nihayana, and it is also translated as smaller consciousness.]

So Nahayana is a typo.
It's interesting, Hina means left behind or abandoned or low, while Niha means loss or deprived.
In which text is the term Nihayana used?

Also to echo DM your interpretation of Nirvana or Hinayana is not quite correct.

Hinayana schools believed in achieving Nirvana which means liberation of the self from the samsara. The Buddha(Siddharta)never claimed to take anybody to Nirvana.

The Mahayana schools believe in effecting the spiritual liberation of all beings from the cycle of reincarnation and rebirth.

Re: # 18If you will study deeply the original sources of Budhism, not the Hinduised sources as you are referring; then you will know the basic difference, that in Hinayana /Nihayana and Mahayana was of the traditional and liberal differnce based upon the ability and approach to attain Nirvana or to get rid of all the suffering and pain. In Hinayana/ Nihayana there was only one person who atatined mukti ( in Hindu terms) and attainment of nirvana in Mahayana it was asserted , ratehr it was its basic tenet to believe that evry one can becoem Buddha by adotpng the Ten Basic percepts of Buddhism as enunicated by its major thinkers. And this difference becomes clearer and more elaborate when we see the traditions of Tibetan Lama Buddhism and mainstream Chinese Buddhism and theri related differences.

The Tripatakas and Trijatakas are not in Brahminic language of religious elite of ancient India , they are in Pali ( is it alive today!) and in China it was translated by xuan Zhuang and 52 other Chinese who traveleld to Xi Tian means Western Paradise ( present day Pakistan) and for India Xuan Zhuang uses word du shen ( Du is word for drugs and virus in chinese present use and shen is for body ( for this see the translated text of xuan Zhuang's journey to look for Buddhist literature. from India only 16 monks traveleld for literary pursuits. See Cultural Flow Between China and outside world throughout History Foreign language Press Beijing written by Shen Fuwei 1996.

And as to Samsara terminology, did you hear about Shambhala Concept of Buddhism in Tibetan Lama Buddhism?

Re: # 16 word Hindu is anathema for bigoted and reactionaries of present modern age , in Muslim literature of Classic Persian and earlier Urdu it was used for a beautiful person , see the Sadi's writings.

the word hindu flows from Sapat Sandhu, the land of Seven Rivers and now of five rivers Punjab! this bias does not exist in any religion or peole it exists in followers of a religion , what happened to jews in WWII? what happened to Muslims in Gujerat? what happened to Protestant Christians in France in 1576 August?

Muslims were in Bamiyan in 7th century and reached upto the place called Bamiyan and it is also near Ghazni, the Empire of Mahmood Ghazanavi, so why they were not destroyed then by those but-shikans then?

Conduct of fanatic and stubborn Taliban on name of Islam can not be equated with act of all the Muslims , it was then bad , it is bad and it will remain bad to unwantonly destroy the religious icons of any person. because there si no compulsion in religion!

Re: # 17http://www.spiritpathperu.com/west/ayahuaska/discipline/index.html read tis it shows the use of word of nihayana and read again the answer . the presence of hinayna was not denied and the stress is upon the basic difference of thought not on the nomenclature.

Thanks, this is fabulous.

Re: # 22 welcome!

Re: # 20

"so why they were not destroyed then by those but-shikans then?"

Because there were plenty other things to destroy.
They probably did not have means to destroy such huge statues.

I think yana (or yan) in Sanskut means vehicle.
So mahayana and hinayana are just different vehicles,
higher vehicle and lower vehicle.

Re: # 24 It is reported about these statutes in histroy books that in the times of Caliph Usman RA Muslims reached to these areas and in those times these Buddha statutes had precious diamond and pearls studded in them. one Companion of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)who was of shorter height ran and reached upto these Buddha statutes in Bamiyan and tok out the diamonds out fo eyes and merely said I just wanted to show that they even can not help themselves how can they help you? and came down and they never destroyed these . As far as destroying other many htinsg will you specify the other things?

Re: # 25 yea your understanding is right and it catches the essence of the differnce in Buddhist Tradition.

Re: # 25 yea your understanding is right and it catches the essence of the differnce in Buddhist Tradition.

Mahfari # 20,

"Muslims were in Bamiyan in 7th century and reached upto the place called Bamiyan and it is also near Ghazni, the Empire of Mahmood Ghazanavi, so why they were not destroyed then by those but-shikans then?"

If it took your firendly neighbourhood ISI bomb experts more than two attempts to blow up the Bamiyan with the most modern explosives, what chances of sucess of destroying them existed in the hands of tech. challenged muslim medival hordes?

This article is a good attempt by a pakistani to start looking for a better understanding of his history. But anyone can see that all Pakistanis suffer from a complete lack of knowledge about anything nonislamic in their country's past.
An interesting and relevant issue for pakistanis with regards to Buddhism would be that Buddha's pictures and statues did not exist for atleast 4 centuries after his death. His message precluded people from worshipping him. Yet centuries later as is the human tendency, people erected statues and pictures to honor him and eventually worship him as a personal deity. Interestingly there is nothing in Buddhism that condemns these followers to hell or decapitation for such acts.

Adios

Re: # 26

By other things, I mean temples, stupas, viharas,
etc. I am sure Afghanistan, present day Pakistan, and
northern India must have been littered with them.
You hardly see any of those ancient structures.

Re: # 29 Can we count the books written on history of India in pre-Modern times ? who was Alberuni? He wrote first sociological and objective compendium about India in 11th century . Who patronized him son of the so-called but -shikan !

the problem is that due to narrowmindedness of modern times and our own vested interests we are unable to share and understand the human heritage and history and culture !

As far as the non-appreciation of non-Islamic culture is concerned it is an incomplete truth. Have you read Dr. Hasan Dani, Salman Rashid,Yahya Amjad , Rashid Akhter Nadvi, and most important the original sources of indian histroy written by Muslim writers in last more than 1000 years, who without bias describe the events of history. how many Hindu Rajahs patronized historians? we need to histroy from objective eyes and not from eyes of a bigot!

#19

The Hinayana school talks of Nirvana for the individual.
Mahayana schools talk of Nirvana for all living beings not just humans. In that sense the individual Mahayana practitioner pledges to some back into the samsara to release all beings.

It seems to me that you say that Mahayana is only for humans and that is not right.

By the way what do you mean by Hinduised sources? Do you suppose the Buddha originated in some country where the predominant form of religious thought was Taoism.
Where do you think the seminal thinking of Buddha originated from? Do you think he was born a Taoist?
Do you think the concept of Hinayana and Mahayana originated in some other country other than India. The Mahayana school originated in South India.

What do you think Pali is ? It is a literary language developed in India patronised by Hindu kings. It is another prakrit language which means vernacular as opposed to Sanskrit.

What are original Buddhist texts? Those written by the Chinese? I suppose they chose to write in Pali because it was their mother tongue.

Do you know what samsara is ?

Since you brought up the original source of Buddhism I suggest you dismiss all discussion of Tibetan, Chinese and Japanese Buddhism. They are all tainted by their local influences just as you use the word "Hinduised".

Re: # 30 except sporadic military instances of destruction there is no historical record substantiate the fact that Muslims destroyed the viharas, stupas, and temples.

How can we guess of huge constructions throughout histroy about a place where the Shudras were not allowed to enter the temples! How many Brahmans were in India who could control the temples and other religious places.

When Arth shastra said pour hot copper in the ears of Shudras if eh listens to sacred Vedas , then how could they have loved to construct temples... so that North indai would ahve been littered with these religious places?

As to South Indai how amny temples we ahve other than famous ones in Kernataka, Orissa, and some other border areas near the coasts and in Gujerat also!

How can there be temples when common people were not allowed to constrcut and enter the temples, read again the Shastric rules about constrcution of Temples and then relate it ot the number of temples!This fad of constrcuting of religious places by all the followers of religions and creeds is the gift of modernity. It was not so rampant in past as it 1s portrayed to be!

Re: # 32wonderful I will love to respond!

*18

"The Mahayana schools believe in effecting the spiritual liberation of all beings from the cycle of reincarnation and rebirth."
Fully agree with you

Temples and hindu idols were absent till 10 th century C.E.
This explained by the fact that for the period between 4th 5th c.e.and 10th c.e.was relatively lull period of hinduism after which hindu asserted them selves overr Jain & Buddha.

In ayodhya Jain claim the temple was built OVER jain temple.

Jain, Buddhist & sikh also claim that they are distinct from Hindu

Re: # 35 well said , fully agree!

Re: # 35 well said , fully agree!

Re: # 26

"reached upto these Buddha statutes in Bamiyan and tok out the diamonds out fo eyes and merely said I just wanted to show that they even can not help themselves how can they help you?"

This is standard Islamic propaganda against idolators. First, create a caricature of idolator religion and then abuse that caricature as if that implies critique of that religion. The first caricature is of equating the idols with the spiritual deity - as if the photo of bush is GWB and after burning that photo some Islamist claims - " look he cannot save himself."
Infact, every idolator must look at these Pakistanis and say - "See, even your Allah cannot save you from your current state."
The fact remains that the standard operating manual of Islam prescribes abominable amounts of violence against other religions.

Re: # 35

"Temples and hindu idols were absent till 10 th century C.E."

Miyan , kaun se madarasee se par kar dawah karne nikle ho??

Re: # 35

"Jain, Buddhist & sikh also claim that they are distinct from Hindu"

Define what is Hindu before you re-state the standard Paki propaganda needed to revenge that pathetic state that actually is because of their own karmas!!

Re: # 33

"substantiate the fact that Muslims destroyed the viharas, stupas, and temples."

Yes, Yes, you can also ask every one to substantiate 9/11-s , 7/11-s , WWII Jewish holocaust or even the surrender of 1971!!!

Re: # 33

"Re: # 30 except sporadic military instances of destruction there is no historical record substantiate the fact that Muslims destroyed the viharas, stupas, and temples."

This is the most illiterate piece of Islamist historiography that one can only find on Paki sites.
I do not want to spam ......but I have around 20 namas of Islamic megalomaniacs just to disprove that that innocence that is being displayed by you......

Mahfari,
You are quoting alberuni as an objective historical source. Well, the guy critiqued indian mathematical contribution without knowing much about it in the first place. He thought of most of the mathematical constructs as useless as he could not understand it himself.
If a catholic considers the history maintained by the church as objective then I think we need a new definition of objective.
Please do not be offended, but it is clearly recorded by the Turk invaders that they destroyed the Nalanda university thinking it to be a temple (A later rationalization in my opinion). It was common culture in the middle eastern societies to destroy the places of worship of their enemies. So they were not doing anything unusual in India.
Somehow the eastern traditions are less hung over on the religious/spiritual practices of others. As an example when Cyrus the great invaded Jerusalem, he did not destroy any Jewish temple or obstruct the locals in their religious beliefs. Tolerance for others is actually presented as a vice in any Abrahamic faith.

As far as objectivity in history is concerned, I do not think that there is any nation and organized religion which has recorded its history objectively. It is a useless excercise to rationalize the existence of the statecraft.

You are right about the Brahminical discrimination towards the dalits. Which is why, from 47 onwards the laws have been formulated to wipe out such discrimination. It takes time to root out ingrained prejudices. But at least to begin with laws exist to counter that in India. The same shastras that you remember well have been forgotten by the upper castes in India and no one gives them any respect anymore. I think not taking any religious word literally for the word of God is essentiual for any such change.
This reminds me of the famous Buddha teaching that you should have talked about too apart from just statues in Pakistan,
"Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true."

Adios

Re: # 41 there is a saying in Urdu marun ghutna phutay ankh!there is no further need to comment on the interacts of this type! Is it?

Re: # 41 there is a saying in Urdu marun ghutna phutay ankh!there is no further need to comment on the interacts of this type! Is it?

Re: # 41 there is a saying in Urdu marun ghutna phutay ankh!there is no further need to comment on the interacts of this type! Is it?

Re: # 41 there is a saying in Urdu marun ghutna phutay ankh!there is no further need to comment on the interacts of this type! Is it?

The destruction of the University of Nalanda is recorded by the Turkish historian Minhazad in his "Tawakat-i-Nasiri"- he describes how 20,000 shaven headed idolators were beheaded and they could not find any one to explain what was written in the books.......

Shame on these zealot momeens...thoook...........

Pratya Samputada

Pali "paticca-samuppada " the chain, or law, of dependent origination, or the chain of causation—a fundamental concept of Buddhism describing the causes of pain and the course of events that lead a being through rebirth, old age, and death.

Existence is seen as an interrelated flux of phenomenal events, material and psychical, without any real, "permanent", independent existence of their own. These…


pratitya-samutpada... (75 of 421 words)


To read the full article, activate your FREE Trial
...........................................

#4
For Buddha, Pratittya Samutpada is the basis of "Samsara" and is one of the "Sats" that humanity must admit. The entire philosophy of Buddhism is based upon the notion of "Samsara" and the cycle of existence that gets unleashed due to karmas and sankalpas. Violence begets its fruits and even Mohamamad must have suffered the fruits of his violent karmas. There is NO intercession by any Allah.

Pakistani situation is a clear example of pratitya samutpada - the hatred of TNT come back to haunt the very proponents. The more Pakistan Islamizes, the more it gets farther from the very philosophy of Buddhism that existed on its soil till it was decimated in typical Islamic genocide.
...............................
I wish & Hope Both Patel (hindu congress )& (Jinnah muslim PML)equally respnsible for TNT get there Prati SAmputada

Gandhi must be smiling being more a jain& Against TNT

Read this extract -

http://books.google.com/books?id=e9mz9yg74wAC&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78& dq=turk+nalanda+university&source=web&ots=UcEQ90ULKV&sig=60GgMWWCf1- RAnDgP5aHMUK2CRc#PPA78,M1

Re: # 43 If you have in deatail the Kitab al Hind of Al beruni , then you will be knowing that in the portion on calender he has calculated the periods of Kalyug, and related periods.

As far as his interest fro mathematics is concerned he measured the cirumference of earth at Nalanda ( the place mentioned and propagated as the desruction point by some persons as an example of destruction of religious places) and hsi measurement is more than 98% correct as comapred to present measurements!

He has written many treatise on the subject of mathematics and he was himslef a great mathmeticain of his times!


it was not Church history, it was histrory of highest standard in those times read the original texts of those times and they will tell that how histroy is written . they did,nt spare any one and all were not official historians and comapring these with church histroy is like comapring apples with turnips!

it was not tradition of civilized people to destroy religious places, but of least civilized ones ,and yes all times had such breeds ! But it was not a rule to be followed.

As to Abrahamic faiths there is great difference between the Quran and other extant texts of sacred nature. take example even in Quran it is mentioned that when Suleman AS (the famous for Hekel-e =Sulemani ) 's forces passed through a jungle the ants said change your path suleman the Great AS's forces come. But when the forces of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be UPon HIm) passed near a nest of doves He peace be upon him said change the path and it was changed and dove nests were kept intact.

In Old Testament there punishment of wiping out for the enemies and they did it in those times but at teh tiem of conquest of Makkah the worst enemies of Muhamamd peace be upon him and Islam were pardoned ! There was a visible cahnge wrought by ideas and messages of Holy prophet peace be upon him and Holy quran and it was there and its impact is still here.

The present bigotry, hatred and violence on the name of Islam and human libverty and freedom is not sanctioned by Islam and Allah's messangers peace be upon them. they are serving theri interests whther it was 9/11 or other related acts of killing innocent people .

The search fro truth is not paved with roses alone, it has thorns of truth andrealities also!

Who were the Sindhi people who welcomed Muhamamd Bin Qasim , why were all the old officials of administrative departemnts were kept intact by Muhamamd Bin Qasim?

why Hindus after his death made hsi idols and worshipped him?

where did Buddhists went after coming of Islam in India? They were never forced . delusionsand illusions are not histroy. it is search for truth and truth nad nothing else ... although it is not always conducive to our personal beliefs and egos!

the greatest test of truth is reason, use it and discern trtuh as sadi by Rumi RA that use light of reason and knowledge and discern from fals and true!

It is not dogma it is a dynamic and ever creative struggle!

Re: # 43 If you have in deatail the Kitab al Hind of Al beruni , then you will be knowing that in the portion on calender he has calculated the periods of Kalyug, and related periods.

As far as his interest fro mathematics is concerned he measured the cirumference of earth at Nalanda ( the place mentioned and propagated as the desruction point by some persons as an example of destruction of religious places) and hsi measurement is more than 98% correct as comapred to present measurements!

He has written many treatise on the subject of mathematics and he was himslef a great mathmeticain of his times!


it was not Church history, it was histrory of highest standard in those times read the original texts of those times and they will tell that how histroy is written . they did,nt spare any one and all were not official historians and comapring these with church histroy is like comapring apples with turnips!

it was not tradition of civilized people to destroy religious places, but of least civilized ones ,and yes all times had such breeds ! But it was not a rule to be followed.

As to Abrahamic faiths there is great difference between the Quran and other extant texts of sacred nature. take example even in Quran it is mentioned that when Suleman AS (the famous for Hekel-e =Sulemani ) 's forces passed through a jungle the ants said change your path suleman the Great AS's forces come. But when the forces of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be UPon HIm) passed near a nest of doves He peace be upon him said change the path and it was changed and dove nests were kept intact.

In Old Testament there punishment of wiping out for the enemies and they did it in those times but at teh tiem of conquest of Makkah the worst enemies of Muhamamd peace be upon him and Islam were pardoned ! There was a visible cahnge wrought by ideas and messages of Holy prophet peace be upon him and Holy quran and it was there and its impact is still here.

The present bigotry, hatred and violence on the name of Islam and human libverty and freedom is not sanctioned by Islam and Allah's messangers peace be upon them. they are serving theri interests whther it was 9/11 or other related acts of killing innocent people .

The search fro truth is not paved with roses alone, it has thorns of truth andrealities also!

Who were the Sindhi people who welcomed Muhamamd Bin Qasim , why were all the old officials of administrative departemnts were kept intact by Muhamamd Bin Qasim?

why Hindus after his death made hsi idols and worshipped him?

where did Buddhists went after coming of Islam in India? They were never forced . delusionsand illusions are not histroy. it is search for truth and truth nad nothing else ... although it is not always conducive to our personal beliefs and egos!

the greatest test of truth is reason, use it and discern trtuh as sadi by Rumi RA that use light of reason and knowledge and discern from fals and true!

It is not dogma it is a dynamic and ever creative struggle!

Re: # 43 If you have in deatail the Kitab al Hind of Al beruni , then you will be knowing that in the portion on calender he has calculated the periods of Kalyug, and related periods.

As far as his interest fro mathematics is concerned he measured the cirumference of earth at Nalanda ( the place mentioned and propagated as the desruction point by some persons as an example of destruction of religious places) and hsi measurement is more than 98% correct as comapred to present measurements!

He has written many treatise on the subject of mathematics and he was himslef a great mathmeticain of his times!


it was not Church history, it was histrory of highest standard in those times read the original texts of those times and they will tell that how histroy is written . they did,nt spare any one and all were not official historians and comapring these with church histroy is like comapring apples with turnips!

it was not tradition of civilized people to destroy religious places, but of least civilized ones ,and yes all times had such breeds ! But it was not a rule to be followed.

As to Abrahamic faiths there is great difference between the Quran and other extant texts of sacred nature. take example even in Quran it is mentioned that when Suleman AS (the famous for Hekel-e =Sulemani ) 's forces passed through a jungle the ants said change your path suleman the Great AS's forces come. But when the forces of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be UPon HIm) passed near a nest of doves He peace be upon him said change the path and it was changed and dove nests were kept intact.

In Old Testament there punishment of wiping out for the enemies and they did it in those times but at teh tiem of conquest of Makkah the worst enemies of Muhamamd peace be upon him and Islam were pardoned ! There was a visible cahnge wrought by ideas and messages of Holy prophet peace be upon him and Holy quran and it was there and its impact is still here.

The present bigotry, hatred and violence on the name of Islam and human libverty and freedom is not sanctioned by Islam and Allah's messangers peace be upon them. they are serving theri interests whther it was 9/11 or other related acts of killing innocent people .

The search fro truth is not paved with roses alone, it has thorns of truth andrealities also!

Who were the Sindhi people who welcomed Muhamamd Bin Qasim , why were all the old officials of administrative departemnts were kept intact by Muhamamd Bin Qasim?

why Hindus after his death made hsi idols and worshipped him?

where did Buddhists went after coming of Islam in India? They were never forced . delusionsand illusions are not histroy. it is search for truth and truth nad nothing else ... although it is not always conducive to our personal beliefs and egos!

the greatest test of truth is reason, use it and discern trtuh as sadi by Rumi RA that use light of reason and knowledge and discern from fals and true!

It is not dogma it is a dynamic and ever creative struggle!

Re: # 43 If you have in deatail the Kitab al Hind of Al beruni , then you will be knowing that in the portion on calender he has calculated the periods of Kalyug, and related periods.

As far as his interest fro mathematics is concerned he measured the cirumference of earth at Nalanda ( the place mentioned and propagated as the desruction point by some persons as an example of destruction of religious places) and hsi measurement is more than 98% correct as comapred to present measurements!

He has written many treatise on the subject of mathematics and he was himslef a great mathmeticain of his times!


it was not Church history, it was histrory of highest standard in those times read the original texts of those times and they will tell that how histroy is written . they did,nt spare any one and all were not official historians and comapring these with church histroy is like comapring apples with turnips!

it was not tradition of civilized people to destroy religious places, but of least civilized ones ,and yes all times had such breeds ! But it was not a rule to be followed.

As to Abrahamic faiths there is great difference between the Quran and other extant texts of sacred nature. take example even in Quran it is mentioned that when Suleman AS (the famous for Hekel-e =Sulemani ) 's forces passed through a jungle the ants said change your path suleman the Great AS's forces come. But when the forces of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be UPon HIm) passed near a nest of doves He peace be upon him said change the path and it was changed and dove nests were kept intact.

In Old Testament there punishment of wiping out for the enemies and they did it in those times but at teh tiem of conquest of Makkah the worst enemies of Muhamamd peace be upon him and Islam were pardoned ! There was a visible cahnge wrought by ideas and messages of Holy prophet peace be upon him and Holy quran and it was there and its impact is still here.

The present bigotry, hatred and violence on the name of Islam and human libverty and freedom is not sanctioned by Islam and Allah's messangers peace be upon them. they are serving theri interests whther it was 9/11 or other related acts of killing innocent people .

The search fro truth is not paved with roses alone, it has thorns of truth andrealities also!

Who were the Sindhi people who welcomed Muhamamd Bin Qasim , why were all the old officials of administrative departemnts were kept intact by Muhamamd Bin Qasim?

why Hindus after his death made hsi idols and worshipped him?

where did Buddhists went after coming of Islam in India? They were never forced . delusionsand illusions are not histroy. it is search for truth and truth nad nothing else ... although it is not always conducive to our personal beliefs and egos!

the greatest test of truth is reason, use it and discern trtuh as sadi by Rumi RA that use light of reason and knowledge and discern from fals and true!

It is not dogma it is a dynamic and ever creative struggle!

Re: # 50 sorry the interact is ebing sent too many times! not my intention and desire!computer glitch!

Re: # 50 This shows the belief of followers of Buddha and treats Him as Ultimate Truth which he never asserted or declared! did He ?

Re: # 52

"..( the place mentioned and propagated as the desruction point by some persons as an example of destruction of religious places),..."

How long would momeens act like ostriches??? Read history .read "Tawakat-i-Nasiri"........read Quran and Hadiths like Buddha would have wanted you to read and not like a blind mullah........for god sake and open your eyes to this cult of hate???

Re: # 57 read it carefully within context . dont take words out of context. In histroy nothing is perfect and for Muslims except Prophets peace eb upon them , no one is perfect or innocent. From this fundamental belief flew the tradition of writing truth. Why did Indra Gandhi attacked Golden Temple? Should we say after this that Gandhi destroyed all sikh Gurdewaras! Search truth not incomplete truth! A sporadic example at any place can not become a rule to assert its authenticity. Exceptions do,nt make rules!

The text quoted by you is not to prove this point which you are raising , it aims to show the histroical understanding and importance of place NALANDA as the place of wisdom and its realtionship with knowledge. why did Al Beruni chose this very place? Think and come out of sand Dear Laddu!

Dear People!

There is no God but One God. I invite you to recognize Him and thus find your salvation. Let me introduce Him to you. God! There is no God but He, the Living, the Self-subsisting, the Eternal. No slumber can seize Him, nor sleep. All things in heaven and earth are His. Who could intercede in His presence without His permission? He knows what appears in front of (the future or the hidden) and behind (the past and undisclosed) His creatures. Nor can they (His creatures) encompass any knowledge of Him except what he wills. His throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them, for He is the Highest and Most Exalted.

God, the Most High, speaks the truth.

I do not care about Al-Beruni, I only respect and care about the legacy of the great scholar Chandrakirti whose works were probably destroyed by the zealot momeens in the attack on Nalanda!!!

Re: # 59

"God, the Most High, speaks the truth."

But maulavi shaheb isn't your God the "best deceiver."......that means he must be lying as well in order to decive idolators like me....so their goes the credibility of your God about speaking the truths!!!!

Re: # 58

"The text quoted by you is not to prove this point which you are raising ,"

Despite giving you the source as well as extracts of that Nalanda-genocide by zealot momeens bent upon converting every one and looting and killing kafirs, you act like a typical Islamist denying that the event ever occurred!!

How can you be so blind despite the evidence thrown at you......

Re: # 60 Probably ????????? Be certain dear! It were Muslims who secured the old knowledge of ancient folks! scholars are all respectable irrespective of their faith and creed!

there is saying of Holy Prophet peace eb upon him the ink of scholar is sacred tahn blood of hundreds of martyrs! (Hadith) scholars are always great and I am with you on the loss of all teh human heritage lost under wars intentionally or otherwise!
Al_ Beruni save dthe knowledge of Indai, If he was not there , we would have lost glorious record of those times and a real loss to humanity indeed it would have been!

who gave the wolrd Zero, from India , Muslims! Who translated great works of Indian wisdom Muslims in Baghdad, Who preserved and translated indain texts Akbar , who preserved the Ashoka Column in Delhi one of Tughlaq Kings!
And zealots are never momeenens , they are prisoners of theri own delusions, but on the false undestadning of religion!

Re: # 60 Probably ????????? Be certain dear! It were Muslims who secured the old knowledge of ancient folks! scholars are all respectable irrespective of their faith and creed!

there is saying of Holy Prophet peace eb upon him the ink of scholar is sacred tahn blood of hundreds of martyrs! (Hadith) scholars are always great and I am with you on the loss of all teh human heritage lost under wars intentionally or otherwise!
Al_ Beruni save dthe knowledge of Indai, If he was not there , we would have lost glorious record of those times and a real loss to humanity indeed it would have been!

who gave the wolrd Zero, from India , Muslims! Who translated great works of Indian wisdom Muslims in Baghdad, Who preserved and translated indain texts Akbar , who preserved the Ashoka Column in Delhi one of Tughlaq Kings!
And zealots are never momeenens , they are prisoners of theri own delusions, but on the false undestadning of religion!

Re: # 60 Probably ????????? Be certain dear! It were Muslims who secured the old knowledge of ancient folks! scholars are all respectable irrespective of their faith and creed!

there is saying of Holy Prophet peace eb upon him the ink of scholar is sacred tahn blood of hundreds of martyrs! (Hadith) scholars are always great and I am with you on the loss of all teh human heritage lost under wars intentionally or otherwise!
Al_ Beruni save dthe knowledge of Indai, If he was not there , we would have lost glorious record of those times and a real loss to humanity indeed it would have been!

who gave the wolrd Zero, from India , Muslims! Who translated great works of Indian wisdom Muslims in Baghdad, Who preserved and translated indain texts Akbar , who preserved the Ashoka Column in Delhi one of Tughlaq Kings!
And zealots are never momeenens , they are prisoners of theri own delusions, but on the false undestadning of religion!

Re: # 62 Violence unprovoked is condemnable!In Quran it is explicitly said killing o one person is killing of humanity!

Re: # 59

"All things in heaven and earth are His. "

He must have a title ship deed signed in his favour for the ownership......err by the way can he sell the heavens and earth as well to his friend satan??

Mahfari,

Your post reveals a bias impossible to bridge with facts. Posidonius from Greece had already developed a way to measure earth's circumference. Alberuni did nothing original. He took the indian numerals and later the same were spread as arabic numerals. This is what a simple search in wikipedia will give you about nalanda ,

"In 1193, the Nalanda University suffered a final blow after the complex was sacked by Muslim armies[18] under Bakhtiyar Khilji; this event is seen as a milestone in the decline of Buddhism in India."

You are free to assume that no muslim was involved in it. As far as Bin Qasim is concerned, try and remember that for administration of iraq even the US had to turn back to the old baathists. The truce they have made with them has ensured peace. Bin Qasim's attempt to run Sindh by the help of locals cannot be taken as an act of mercy. He needed them.

I do not wish to offend you again, but you are quoting me abrahamic texts showing tolerance and mercy. Unfortunately, the acts in the name of faith that have beeen commited are just the reverse. I have not forgotten the calls for decapitation of salman rushdie for mentioning some historical facts about temple destruction in arabia during the times of the prophet of Quran. Is it a historical fact that a temple was destroyed by your prophet after pledging just the reverse? And if so then how does it show tolerance towards others. Why should his followers not walk in the same footsteps?
What kind of objectivity can you bring in this discussion of temple destruction anywhere but a sense of bigotry.

I do not believe that issues of religion can ever be discussed objectively. Destruction of temples and universities done by anyone in whatever name cannot be judged by any historian objectively. The perpetrators will always claim innocence under some pretext. But the bottom line is intolerance towards any other view but their own.

Adios

Mahfari,
In your excitement please don't post the same thing over and over.

Re: # 63

"there is saying of Holy Prophet peace eb upon him the ink of scholar is sacred tahn blood of hundreds of martyrs! (Hadith) "

Err, Sir, Please , could you provide me the right source for this Hadiths??

Re: # 65

"Who preserved and translated indain texts Akbar"

What Pakistani propaganda!!

Akbar "preserved" Indian texts?? Which texts are you talking about?? Ramayana, Veda, Upanishads, Jinna Granths, Tripitakas, Sahitya, Kalidas, Aryabhatt. Charaka ??? Which text do you give Akbar the credit for "preservation"????

Re: # 68

Dear Maharana

You are quoting wikipedia and you will also be knowing about its basic premise that it is always open to re-interpretation and new ideas. i am in a country where i can not access Wikipedia otherwise i would ahev read this source, but I believe in this as you have said .
If you have not read Al-Beruni's Al Hind and other books on sciences then there is no need to discuss it further.

as to refer to the eevnt in the life of holy Prophet peace be upon him can you quote the exact place and exact temple which was destroyed despite promising otherwise?

As to abrahamic religions I presented an evolutionary perspective , you have rigth to differ as I have right to my own opinion. But hte question of facts, and realities, If certain people did a bad thing in certain circumstances; then how it becomes a role that all people belonging to that idea or creed were responsible for the same act?

History is not religion !



of

I am only speaking for the legacy of चन्द्रकीर्ति that was lost in Nalanda...........Al Beruni means nothing to me........

Re: # 71 he got translated the Ramayna in Persian along with other texts of Hindu classic literature. read Muntakhawab-al-tarikh written by badayuni , that there was a whole lot of people to translate literature of India in Persian. dara Shikuh translated bhagwat Gita and wrote a book Majm-al behrain.
Come out of propaganda ideology, confirm the texts.

If you can get read the brilliant thesis by Dr. Tara Chnad Influence of Islam on Indian Culture , he was not a propagandsit certainly!

Re: # 67 Read Bhagwat Gita and think over it , you will know its meanings!

Actually Darashikoh translated the first ever translation into any language of the Upanishads.
In his case, from Sanskrit to Persian.

"he got translated the Ramayna in Persian along with other texts of Hindu classic literature."

That is a joke.........translations to persian or english only helps bridge the gap between two different religons........it does not "preserve" a living tradition......only practicing hindus "preserve" a living tradition of vedas and sanathan dharma........ Akbar probably translated them at the request of mullahs who wanted to analyse the original texts of the idolator for fatwas to control them.................

Re: # 76 He translated many portions of bhagwat gita , but many other Classic Hindu texts were also translated well before him in akbar's era in Persian.

Re: # 75

"Re: # 67 Read Bhagwat Gita and think over it , you will know its meanings!"

I would say the same to you about Quran!!

#68
You forgot or intentially insert (need to be Verified)

In your bias you did not completely quote from the Wikipedia

Ling and Scott, however, point out that centres of learning were already declining, before the presence of Muslims.[18] Fortified Sena monasteries along the main route of the invasion were destroyed, and being off the main route both Nalanda and Bodh Gaya survived. Many institutions off the main route such as the Jagaddala Monastery in northern Bengal were untouched and flourishing(also ned to be verified)

I do not know if you have visited (for orientation of different areas mentined )to deduce .I have

Re: # 77 wonderful ! You are beyond Badayuni, who himself sadi that akbar forced me to translate the texts of kafirs and he was labeleld Mullah by Akber himself!
(get a copy of book and read it , it is not available on internet certainly )

Be sure do,nt beat about the bush by saying PROBABLY!

Re: # 79 yea i have read again and again bhagwat gita and it is pure bliss to read! You?

mahfari: you mention that you are in a country where the wikipedia is not accessible. and yet you can access the interent. I am curious to know which country this is, and why wikipedia is not accessible.

Re: # 80 thank you mystic for setting the record straight! I would have myself read it , but here it does not open!

Mahfari,

I will read Al Beruni's Al Hind since you have talked so much about him. There seems to be a lot more to Beruni then just translating and propagating works as you are claiming.
It is a widely hels notion by historians that the arabs were excellent traders not just in goods but in ideas too. The muslims in spain translated works from the east and created a vast library in Al Andalus.

Yes, I'll quote you the exact issues regarding the Rushdie affair and his claims soon enough.

Adios

Re: # 83 I am laughing now! it is China!

Re: # 61 laddu
Bhai you seem to be very angry for some reason. And as I understand it your anger is based on the content of some work (Chandrakirti ) that was destroyed a few centuries ago. If that work was destroyed then how did you review it and if you didn't then how can a non-existent mythical thing upset you? This is insane.

My invitation to your salvation is for your own good. God is absolutely and dispassionately indifferent to my recognition or your recognition of Him. Our recognition of Him is for our own good. I am only extending this invitation (dawat) to you and all on this website because my own salvation lies in this. Whether or not you accept this invitation has no consequences to me or any other for I have conveyed what I was charged with.

However, as a fellow human being I would like you to succeed. Isn't it an absolute truth that anger is the most potent of the forces that misguides human beings? Please shed the anger; it will help you realize the beauty around us.

Re: # 81

listen, this tranlation argument is a joke. Hinduism did not survive because Akbar translated their books. Those who assert this are only repeating their Pak Studies propaganda.
Hinduism survived because of the guts , resolve and faith of idolaters like me. It survived because hindus bribed, bought, struggled, fought for preservation of their living traditions. It was preserved because idolators like me spent years of their life learning, reading and practicing the texts and practices of their Dharmic texts.
Nooooo credit goes to a momeen for "preservation" of my culture. we idolators collectively "preserved" it DESPITE the muslim rulers!!!

Mystic,

You can also deduce from that paragraph that those spared were not in the main root of the invasion. Hence invasion still was the cause of the ultimate destruction.
The decline of Buddhism started with Hinduism accepting Buddha as the ninth Avatar. Even now most of the concepts in both are not much different.

Adios

mahfari: btw, John Keay in his excellent book A History of India, supports your thesis that it was with the arrival of muslims that we start getting significant written records of indian politics, economy and society. thus, e.g., much of the earlier history of the deccan is gleaned from pottery tablets, stone pillars etc. which were sometimes meaningful as in case of Asoka, but often merely told tall tales about the king that are of no scientific value. he gives the example of one tablet that credits the king as having a light coming out of his big :-).

Re: # 85 No need to go and search the rushdie book . i tell you truth, this issue began in 1988-89 in pakistan when a religious scholar wrote an article in daily jang and he was denied power in the regime at taht time and he quoted some portions making fun of ablution by Muslims and raised issues about the spouses of Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) and it was an issue. the intentions were not good and it was fitna! Oh vested interest how many faces you have!

take a broader outlook of such mob mentality by comapring Holocaust, Frenzy of 1947 in India, Bosnia, Rwanda, present frenzy in Iraq, Gujerat in last years, and recently Nandi Gram... Dear Rana sahib need more examples!

that last sentence has a missing word "toe" at the end.

Re: # 88 These idea s will be blasphemous for narrow minded on both sides of border! truth has very strong influence, it shakes up..... learn from Krishna Murti and make your mind free to think freely not to think from biases, use mind not emotions!

its good to see pakis looking at budhhism even with the tinted chashma. gandhara school of sculpture had a definate greek influence in form .. curly hair, upright stature. previous indian sculpture seems to consider a symmetric upright statues as aesthetically unappealing and tend to go for the ashta-wakra (8-bends) forms.

there are temples built before 10th century with idols..

mahfari: so you are in China? nai hao!! :-)
I knew the chinese government was trying to curb "dangerous ideas" of human rights etc. to enter china. I did not realize that it extended to banning Wikipedia. Let us hope Pakistanis never allow the musharraf or some other would-be autocrat to mess with the internet.

Re: # 90 Thx for qutoing him. but we have our own minds and reading Primary sources of history makes us use our own reasoning skills!

there was only one book on history , a book of annals, Raj Tarangni written by a Minister of kashmir.......... a great contrast from present Kashmir!

Re: # 95 kis kay chupai chupi hi roshni!

Re: # 87

Bhai may your Allah give you a place in heavens. May you have the big eyed ones.
I have accepted the message given by you......but I reject the message given by that paedophile..........your message is clear, simple and makes sense.......... so let us be at peace..

mahfari: agreed. I am all for using our own minds. and my mind also tells me that not all of us are going to read al beruni in the original like you or maharana (who says he plans to do that). nor are all of us going to go around collecting original evidence from pottery shards and deciphering ancient edicts.

so it is useful to read some properly researched history books with documented sources of data as well in order to increase our knowledge and understanding.

Re: # 94 Dear Jang Mahayana school began in 100 AD under Kanishak's influence and 10th century the idols began in Gandhara and it was conscious and liberal decision in those times to come out of narrow clutches of Hinayana/Nihayana to propagate this belief among masses.Were there Buddha idols in Greek?

Picasso's art has symbols of Maya and Inca civilization, does it rob him of his own Picassohood? The learning and assimilation of technique does not obliterate or undertone the basic idea of article Mahayana began in gnadhara and it introduced idols in the Buddhist ideology, back in 5th century in buddhsit temples in South India there were no idols read Oxford History of Indian Art . it is Gandhara art, before greeks there were parts of buddha sculptured not whole body with face, it was in Gandhara that whole body was developed and Mahayana school's bases were laid dwon.

take things not from India or Pakistan's perspctive read them from open heart and mind and embark on footsteps of great sage Krishna Murti at least... think freely !

Re: # 100 it is 1st centruy not 10th century in first line orry for typing error.

Re: # 98 Makhan Chur ki kehani perhi hei kiya!

Miyan, Chandrakirti was a great scholar who wrote Madhyamakavatara.