Why the American War on Terror is Failing Miserably

Re: # 247

zeemax,

.......... how much do you want to bet that geo will be back on air soon, with hamid mir and the rest of them taking a 'soft' approach towards the government in the interest of national unity and all that jazz .......

...... and don't get too excited about the abdul aziz types .......... these primitive cave dwellers are a nuisance and a pain in the butt, but they too can be bought off like the 'mainstream' politicians, or simply killed like the animals that they are ..........personally i don't believe in wasting money on them .....

#245 Posted by bulleya,

I agree with this post.

......the million dollar question is what will be the vehicle through which it is released.....

Remember Lal Masjid? That's the vehicle through which it will be released, and Abdul-Rashid Ghazi's portraits will replace those of M.A Jinnah as Quaid-e-Azam.

That's the truth. No disrespect meant to M.A Jinnah of-course.

so:

1. musharraf + mqm + pml(q) on one side
2. pml(n) + pti + anp + baluchi parties on one side
3. bb on one side
4. jui(f) on one side

three questions:
1. where will jamaat go......it could go with 2, as that is where political direction lies currently.....or it could go with 4, as that is where its ideological directions lies

2. will bb join 1, or will she join 2

3. will jui(f) join 1 or remain in 4

the best case for establishment is that bb and jui(f) join 1, or at least agree to compete against them

the best case for judges (and for pakistan) is for bb to join 2......if she does this, i think musharraf is probably screwed, and pml(q) is totally screwed (while mqm will survive, regardless of what happens).......

#243 Posted by hamidm2,

Yeah I can understand about ARY. Pity, isn't it?

Problem was Dr. Shahid Masood. ARY found him but had to fire him out of pressure, and then GEO picked him up. Now ARY has fired the rest of their main anchors as well and back on air, while GEO has been demolished. Even their webcasts have stopped.

What can I say? ARY are businessmen, not journalists, with a lot of other businesses at stake in Pakistan. GEO are journalists of the Jang Group and have support of civil society.

Re: # 243

zeemax,

....... just to show that i haven't given up ... yet, i am still hoping that nawaz sharif and bb will boycott the elections and let the chaudharys, musharraf, maulana fazloo and the rest of the jokers hang themselves with their own rope ........ this is the only way to get rid of the military-mullah-cattlethief kleptocracy ....... imran khan and asghar khan sitting out the elections is like the lions sitting out of the super bowl ........

....my opinion has been that smart money is on Urstruly....i.e. Jamaat types are going to rise within a few years.....because the current secular enlightened moderates of musharraf, mqm + maybe bb are bankrupt and will continue the downslide of society.....thereby raisng the stock of religious right.......

however, now Urstruly has dumped Jamaat etc......so smart money cannot be on Urstruly, or it cannot be on Jamaat types......

.....so what is the vehicle through which the common unheard (non-Chowk) pakistani (perhaps over 75% of the population) find its voice, if the religious right and the secular liberals are discredited...as is the army....

is it going to be the religious extreme right.......if the army's current operations in wazirstan to swat fail (which they will fail, in my opinion), then there are big reprecussions.....and if musharraf, mqm and bb end up running pakistan, with their loyalties to foreign countries, then there are even bigger problems.......

all this pressure will have to be released from somewhere......the million dollar question is what will be the vehicle through which it is released.....

#241 Posted by Urstruly,

I agree with you, but a hell of a lot of blood will be spilt in that manner. In fact, what you say appears to be the obvious and inevitable outcome of the current crisis.

Why I favour NS is because only NS offers a middle alternative, and a sturdy one.

After all, he did the nuke tests in the face of great intimidation from across the seas.

Re: # 240

zeemax,

.... to prove my point ....... have you tuned in to ary oneworld today? ......... it is back on air and sounds like ptv ..... and i just heard shahbaz sharif in a new armani suit talking about coming back to pakistan to serve the poor people on the 25th ....... i think the people of pakistan are getting set up to get screwed again by the same set of scounderals ..... why don't we act like the pederast mullahs and their madrassa boys so that we can at least enjoy it this time around ..........

shankar #: "I thought you were the eternal optimist. Thats why I'm surprised to hear you say Pakistan has had it after your last visit!....."

.......i try to be an optimist in my personal life...but, when describing an issue or place on this site, i try to be as objective as possible....i had my first real insight into pakistan about two years ago.....i was in pakistan for six months, and got to meet a lot of these, "leaders" face to face......i had never had an opportunity to discuss issues with people in such high places, previously in my life ......after these interactions, i came to the following conclusions:

- pakistan military is beyond repair and totally degenarated....i used to think it was only the generals.....now i am convinced that as an institution it is totally degenerated.....the only thing anyone above the rank of major wanted to discuss with me was plots.....

- pakistan's burecracy is so corrupt it is unbelivable......i already knew it was corrupt, but this was an eye-opener......

- pakisatni politicians are sell-outs....i already knew this, but it was interesting hearing it from their own mouths.....having said that, my opinion of politicians has improved, from very bad to bad.......

- interestingly, there were two institutions and two specific individauls that i ranked quite highly (and mentioned it on chowk also)....one was the media, the other were lawyers and to some extent judiciary......that has proven to be true.....

similarly, there were two politicians that all the politicians spoke highly of.....one very senior guy from ppp actually said, that these were the only two decent politicians in pakistan.......imran khan and aitezaz ahsan.......that has proven correct.......

......if the judiciary wins out against the establishment, pakistan will have made a quantum leap towards stability.......much like it has earlier made due to its fast economic progress, in comparison to other south asian countries, since 47.......if the establishment wins, then the next rise will be of the religious right........and then eventually anarchy......

"Also, I hear you visited India. Havent heard your impressions""

yes, i am spending nearly all my professional time with indian companies......and am in india regularly now......at least once every four to six months or so......more on this later.......india is doing quite well.......it has got its marbles straight, and will continue moving ahead.....not at the pace, everyone keeps saying, but it will keep going ahead.......

at the moment, i found the infrastructure in paksitan actually better.....so one cannot really tell the difference.......but pakistan is pointed downwards, and india moving upwards.......

Re: # 238

I agree with hamidm here about NS (and political class in general). See the criterion is simple. The most pressing issue in this country today is the absolute failure of state apparatus and military; the civil war; and the freedom struggle in Afghanistan that has now reached Islamabad. Just as neocolonialists in Afghanistan think that the source of all their troubles lies in Pakistan, so do the freedom fighters over there are of the opinion that unless they crush the head of this snake (Pakistan)fdirst they cannot harm the mother of all serpents (US). No political leader in Pakistan dares address these issues.

The senseless and extrajusicial murder of Pakistani citizens using the full force and fury of state appratus is on no politician's agenda.

The re-enactment of judiciary has taken back seat.

So this is the bottomline:

- Any election under this harami is invalid.
- Any government formed under this harami or any other harami in uniform is invalid.

- Any politician who takes part in any election under this harami is a part of harami brigade.

Even a second grader would understand that this harami is allowing NS to comeback to lend some credibility to the political system he intends to establish. NS will discredit himself just like Bezamir did if he takes part in this farce.

But I do not need to tell these things to anyone. It is written on the wall that anyone who is going to take part in protecting the status quo in any shape or form should have nine lives. It is not going to be bed of rose anymore. Pakistani citizenary has picked up weapons against this corrupt and deadly system and would not let the corrupt ruling elite has its way anymore. A time of reckonning is upon us all.

#239 Posted by hamidm2,

That's defeatist. Have Faith in people.

(Oh but I forgot, you reject all kinds of 'faith')

Re: # 234

zeemax,

.... you and tahmed are hopeless optimists in your own way .... in the end one of you will end up drinking the milk and other will have to eat the goat droppings like the rest of us .......... nothing, my friend is going to change and as much as i like my namesake, hamid mir, i don't think he is any different from the rest of the crowd ....... in a crowd of pygmies a man who stands at four feet looks like a giant .........

Just a reminder ...

The problem is, and has always been the army top brass.

ZAB confronted the army top brass and got hanged. Nawaz Sharif confronted the army top brass too and almost got hanged.

But he is smarter than ZAB. He called on favours done to powerful people and bided his time in exile and saved his life. But hasn't stopped confronting the top brass.

A dead man is no good. Better to live and fight.

#236 Posted by tahmed32,

So you didn't listen to that speech. That's alright.

Then of-course you wouldn't have a clue how that speech is embedded in publics mind, and rightfully so.

zeemax #32 a picture is worth a thousand words. i dont need to listen to NS speeches. his actions - e.g. storming of the Supreme Court, the 18th amendment - show his mindset is the same as that of musharraf. as is benazir. and the maulvis are not even worth mentioning, since they are only dumber versions of musharraf/ns/bb types.

That is why I keep saying - it is the system that is important. not the individuals.

#231 hamidm: There was no democracy in germany or japan either until after WWII. There was no democracy in India until after 1947. There was no democracy in South Korea either until Park (or whatever his name was) was overthrown. There is no democracy in Russia either, with Putin going the extra mile to have the opposition jailed or murdered. There was no democracy in Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Hungary, East Germany, and the rest East Europe and no democracy in Argentina, Chile, Brazil and a good deal of the rest of Latin America until the Cold War ended. There was no democracy in Turkey - until recently. Indonesia after Suharto has a much stronger rule of law than before and is well on its way to becoming a democracy. Same thing in Malaysia.

With the growth of the middle classes, it is a question of time before people figure out that the Big Man is merely a scoundrel lording it over them on the pretext of being a savior. Whether the scoundrel is wearing a uniform, a beard or merely a "national dress" of one kind of another - it doesnt matter.

#233 Posted by hamidm2,

I admire your finally coming around to read the writing on the wall.

But there's still hope. There's always hope. The civil society street movement is taking off headed by who else but the reasonably Islamist ex-TV anchors like Hamid Mir and Talat Hussain ...

Let's see if the kanjars finally choose which side they're on!

Re: # 230

bubba,

... what executive branch?.... which legislature and what judiciary? ....... the british left sixty years ago and we need to drop those pretentious trappings of civilization and return to our roots ...... you cannot put on a cummberband, riase your glass and make a toast ... rooh afza is not a substitute for scotch ....... there is no point in going on with this laughable charade ........

ameer ul momineen mullah fazlullah zindabad!

#226 Posted by tahmed32,

tahmed32, Nawaz Sharif is the closest to the people of this country. If you had heard his speech upon his resignation after the dismissal by GHK and SC restoration, you would know what I'm talking about.

Did you hear that speech?

Re: # 229

tahmed,

... you are a pretty smart guy - i am just trying to point out that there are no 'saviours' in pakistan because we don't have any - not one - honest man (or woman) ..... it is in our genes, culture, whatever ......

.......... ever wonder why there is no democracy of rule of law in any muslim country from morocco to indonesia ? ....... you might want to look for some, not all, answers in the 'constitution' of mecca and medina and the nepotism of the abominable four and his successors, the sauds ........

Re: # 228 Posted by hamidm2 on November 23, 2007 9:00:07 am

sad to see you, of all people, posting such thoughts.

[the supreme court was trying to establish yet another state within the state], but the executive branch was busy stealing Pakistan. Did you not know that? Since when has challenging the corrupt executive branch of the government wrong.

#228 hamidm: i never claimed to be smart. so i dont need to fall in line. And if I had ambitions of being a "somebody" in Pakistan, I wouldnt be wasting time on chowk. btw, I dont think you need a job in Pakistan either, and are sucking up to the "rising sun" for nothing.

Re: # 226

tahmed,

....... i am fascinated by your fascination with the supreme court ..... it was beginning to display the same 'feudal' characteristics as the army, benazir or nawaz sharif by taking suo-moto notice of anything and everything under the sun .... in fact, like mullah fazlulah, the kanjars of lal masjid and the goons in khaki, the supreme court was trying to establish yet another state within the state .......... we are all the same - kanjaroon and havayoon ........

........ trust me, it is going to be deja vu all over again .......... f you were smart, you too would fall in line - maybe like dr nasim ashraf you can get something out of the next round of bandar baant ........

hamidm: Sure you are a nobody in Pakistan. So am I and everyone else. That is all the more reason for you not to kow-tow to the "rising sun" and try to see things in Pakistan in a more rational way.

PS: even mush is a nobody - except he doesnt know that. since in due course we will all be worm's meal, having misspent the little time we had to rant around.

zeemax: Focus on the system, not the individual. Under today's corrupt system (thanks to Musharraf's destroying the Supreme Court), Nawaz Sharif (or any other individual) may very well end up playing another Shaukat Aziz.

ISLAMABAD, Nov 1, 2008: Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto appointed Imran Khan as Chief Dog Catcher of Pakistan and Retd. CJ Iftikhar Chaudhary as his deputy. The cermemony at the PM House was attended by Leader of the Opposition, Mian Nawaz Sharif, Mullah Fazal ur Rehman, the CM of NWFP and Chaudhary Mohsin Elahi, the Chief Minister of Punjab.

President Musharraf congratulated Imran Khan on his appointment and sent him a lollipop. He also sent a lollipop to Mr. Tahmed and Mr Ayaz Amir as a consolation prize. Mr Tahmed continues to cry inconsolably.

A prophetic post by my most revered interactor, ever, on Chowk. Roohi Allah Ditta aka RoohiAD who regretfully stayed only for two months.

Again, Desperate Times
Posted by RoohiAD Dec 22, 1999 12:31 am
GET LOST GENERAL MUTTERRAF

Your economic package was a total disappointment, and so was you attempted accountability. It is time for military to leave honourably restoring Nawaz Sharif`s government. Read the writing on the wall, general Mutterraf your kins will not find your remains if you dealy your departure. Leave at once.

Roohi A Ditta

#222 Posted by hamidm2,

hamidm2, the sequence is as follows:

1)mootarraf begs saudia to ask Nawaz not to boycott and in return he will allow Shahbaz and Kulsoom to return.

2)Saudi regrets they cannot retain Nawaz anymore and he will have to return if he wants.

3)Compromise is reached that all of Nawaz family will return but Nawaz will not contest elections.

I believe Nawaz agreed in the best interest of the country. Godspeed to him. It is better that there is no further chaos, and I'm sure he took that into account.

let the games begin .... tahmed, eat your heart out!

ISLAMABAD: Former premier Nawaz Sharif has secured an agreement with Saudi Arabia to let him return to Pakistan, PML President Chaudhry Shujaat said on Thursday. “There is some deal” with Saudi authorities for Nawaz to come back, said Shujaat. He told Dawn News that Nawaz would be back in Pakistan before the general elections despite President Musharraf’s resistance. “We are ready to face him and he has to face the people,” Shujaat told Dawn News. ap

Re: # 220

tahmed,

........ i just checked with the pakistani people to see if they were upset at hamidm's support for president musharraf ........ they said "hamidm, who?"

....... look mian, who am i to oppose mushy when everyone including benazir, nawaz sharif, maulana fazloo, arif pan-wala and moodah kasai say he is okay ...... i don't want to be be the laughing stock of the world by standing with fools like imran khan and the droopy eyed chief justice ........

president musharraf zindabad!
brett favre zindabad!

Mr. Madani: Like you, Hamidm also thinks Musharraf is a "rising sun" (at least for next few years).

And I ask this of you: "Since when is it right for a man to do salaam to the "chartha sooraj"? Musharraf may be around another few years (or he may not). But one day, sure as the sun sets in the west, he too will be gone. And you and Hamidm and everyone else who has abandoned the Pakistani people and all those brave Pakistanis fighting for freedom from military rule can then sing this for the rest of your lives:

Jafar az Bengal
Sadiq az Deccan
Nang-e Adam
Nang-e Deen
Nang-e Watan!!

Re: # 217 I was wonder if good "bengal type" cat is possible to be brought, they are beautiful cats and hard to get, not mixed race breed real bengal cat with good tiger strips. Also from Hyderbad has very good figher Khaboors nile with ring in eyes. I will make inquiry as they should be Authentic. sorry just came in mind. probaly there must be restriction. forget it.

Ahmedmadani sahib,

(China is only real friend )

Indeed, sir. And that's why you should request the Lal Masjid Party guys to refrain from from kidnapping Chinese masseuses in future.

Regards

Re: # 215 I will be more than happy to any foreign living indian. Generally my mental depression sets in cold times by warm air i feel better and august is nice warm weather. We can go to beach at eat at Lakhani's Mcdonalds , good icecream. I rarely go out but talk elavates my mind.I may suggest few newcopy of books and will be paid fully.Thanks visit me.

Re: # 214 Mr. T mr. H is right I also support president and president Elect mr. M for pakistan is more important than democracy. Now pakistan real friend is china ( not Elite america who treats us has as just paid servants , or india with good intention saying or stabbing or saudi useing as battle field). Not he is not best it just like ugly woman has no choice but marry some brute to have protecton. Only he is going to deliver kashmir peacefully or if needed by war and he is not coward or just talk at kargil time he had almost fired those rockets carrying glorious warriers who have plundered india many times.
Now please note that pakistan's only REAL friend China commusist Chief and president want all GENERAL at top for STABILITY.ALL china govt is suppoting is general they have no good opinion about BB . So plaese stop talking against elected president. He will be there for totally for next 10 years. Then his health will not be as he has danger time 2017 astrologically. Now no point in disputing rising sun. If blind does not feel sun is is not suns fault , all dushmans of general ka muh kala. Pakistan owns gratitude. He has taken care of terrorist B.Stan defunct BLA. Do you BB can order such things. Any way people should accept general for next 10 years. may be this is not best news but better accept. China is only real friend and they favor Musharaff as best friend of pakistani people.

#213 Posted by ahmedmadani:

Dear ahmedmadani,
I was planning to go to Karachi this December for a wedding. Something came up and I cannot make it. But in August 2009, Inshallah ... Bhaja govindam, I will visit Pakistan .... only if I can meet you in person. Is that even possible?

Actually, I wanted to say .... "Is that even possible, Garfield?" ... but I am an agnostic and too much under your influence. So, can we meet in August 2009?

GT: Obviously someone switched drinks on Urstruly and Hamidm: Hamidm is now an Islamist, running around yelling "Zindabad" for Khalifa Musharraf. Urstruly on the other hand is calling for inner party democracy in Pakistani political parties!!

Re: # 211 Even great Ghalib was alcohol addict. He himself said " agar tuze wali samzate the agar...." People would have called sait if was not alcol addict.

#210 Posted by Urstruly"

Urstruly sahib,

I simply do not believe that you said this:
"NS has been tested twice. He is incompetent and a petty tyrant. Being qa lot better than Bezamir still does not qualify him. He must have party elections which he must face like a man and let a new leadership emerge. Anything less than that is unacceptable."
You have become a liberaloon. I mean what about a set of "wise people" ruling the Islamic republic? I do not believe this! Lahoreviaquwait you must have had that drink with hamidm. How could you?

#210 Posted by Urstruly on November 22, 2007 4:36:38 pm


Anything less than that is unacceptable.


Unacceptable to the people of pureland...or the people of flint, michigan..like you..?

NS has been tested twice. He is incompetent and a petty tyrant. Being qa lot better than Bezamir still does not qualify him. He must have party elections which he must face like a man and let a new leadership emerge. Anything less than that is unacceptable.

I was barred from posting at Chowk for the past two days for calling hamidm a sharabi chutiya. I apologize to hamidm, chowk, and all those whose sensibilities were hurt due to my indiscretion.

#205 hamidm: This turkey that you have in the pot - is this the one in #206 (arjun8 got it right this time!!)?

Brett Favre Zindabad!!

#179 Posted by bulleya on November 22, 2007 7:38:05 am


if it still doesn't, then i think you are simply trying to find some issue on which to prove me wrong..


find issues on which you are wrong based on your own posts?

you've got to be kidding me...

HAHAHA...

Re: # 201

zeemax,

... i have a turkey in the oven mummified in five layers of cheese cloth (one up on martha stewart) that has to be basted every fifteen minutes, but this was too good to pass up ......

.... why don't you take that folded newspaper from airman romair and smack him with it and then you can spread it on the floor to make sure he pees on it next time ...... this puppy needs some serious training which he didn't get at the korangi mistry school ........

........ anyway, a turkey in the oven, a glass of pinot noir in my hand and a football game on tv - life doesn't get any better even if you are not part of the american elite ....... who gives a hoot about what those damn raghead terrorists do down there .........masadi, eat your heart out!


happy thanksgiving !

president musharraf zindabad!
balach marri murdabad!
sheikh rashid zindabad!
nawaz sharif, avey e avey!
general kiani zindabad!
qazi hussain murdabad!
maulana fazloo zindabad! (why? i think the man is a closet kanjar)
benazir zindabad!
altaph bhai zindabad!
mullah fazlullah murdabad!

zeemax: you ignored my wise counsel. :-(

#202 bubba: That is not what I wrote. Please try to say what you want to say in a legible manner.

Re: # 197 Posted by tahmed32 on November 22, 2007 10:02:20 am

[the only credible means to shake loose the Musharraf dictatorship] is with another dictatorship of General Kiani, who is needed to clean up the infamous ISI and the institutional fundamentalism installed since ZAB days.

Do I hear General Kiani zindabad? Of course only from hamid mian.

Okay, never mind. I won't put a respected chowkie painted in a corner all by himself.

Just never wave a folded newspaper in my face again.

Cheers!

Add-on ... #199

... sorry I didn't read the rest of your post before replying ... so I guess you want to weasel out on a compromise by saying you actually support NS in some manner.

That's fine, but do answer what the Justice Sajjad case was about so that we can establish once and for all your grasp of facts.

Thanks.

#198 Posted by bulleya,

There was no change of statements. I think I explained my use of the term 'storming in #188 reproduced below:

Of-course it was stormed. All I'm saying is that it was 'hular baazi' and not a plan by NS. I said NS's explanation is most plausible because the course of events supports this explanation, and not because NS said that.

Now let's have the reply to #196 please.

What was the case Justice Sajjad was hearing against NS? You said it was 'corruption'. Was it?

Just a test of how much you know facts.

zeemax #147: "There was no 'Storming of SC'."
zeemax #188: "Of-course it was stormed."

..funny how people change statements when solid facts are provided to them......in less than an hour, the SC has gone from not being stormed to "of-course being stormed"...

as i said, i really don't like doing this to anyone on this site (other than to hamidm mian).....and i only do it to him, because i miss the days when he was the site clown and dread the day he fell in love with bush to the point of seeing no fault in him (much like you are with ns), and started trying to have intelligent conversation.....

...so pls quit while you are still behind......ns may still be the best choice out of the lot.....pti and imran khan - the group i have supported since day one - may actually have an alliance with pml(n), in which case i will support it also......also, nearly all the feudal and pirs of pml(n) have left it and have joined pml(q), thereby making pml(n) an urban party, which is what i support also......and shahbaz sharif is one hell of an administrator......now there is a guy i would support as pm.......and because while ns has corruption cases against him, unlike bb, they have yet to be proven in court........

so in this current group of useless bufoons, my support is for the pml(n) + pti + anp alliance......and i would support shahbaz for prime minister, with imran as president.......i still think urban businessmen are far better than army, maulvis and feudals.......

hoping for too much with the above, perhaps........but all said and done, let's call a spade a spade, and not try to hide the faults of nawaz........

zeemax: I think romair is quite correct in saying that the SC was stormed during NS time, by NS men. Denying obvious facts simply blinds you to reality. While NS may be part of the solution (along with BB) in the sense of providing the only credible means to shake loose the Musharraf dictatorship, that does not mean NS or BB are perfect and therefore the solution for the post-Musharraf period as well.

#195 Posted by bulleya,

Okay, let's take it one by one:

...and ns had the chief justice removed, when the later was hearing corruption cases against him .....plain and simple...

What was the case Justice Sajjad was hearing? Was it a corruption case or a contempt of court case over a press statement by NS?

We'll continue after your reply.

zeemax #: i don't enjoy doing this to anyone on this site (other than to hamidm mian), but there is a limit to having a love affair with ns....please take a look at what you are saying:

"Don't believe what Najam Sethi says....As for Sajjad Shah, same as above...."

...so we should not look at what sethi and sajjad are saying about what happened to them.....who else would know what happened to them, any better.....ns stormed sethi's house, when he highlighted sharif's corruption on bbc, and ns had the chief justice removed, when the later was hearing corruption cases against him .....plain and simple...

"NS's explanation is most plausible because the course of events supports this explanation,..."

the guy who led the storming, khwaja saad; do talk to him....there is a video of the court being stormed!.......and the people storming it, where prosecuted by the supreme court and punished....the course of events was that nawaz sharif's trial was delayed, during which time he got rid of the chief justice.......until musharraf got rid of him......

the corruption cases i mentioned have been reopened.....please try to follow the events......the guy had his own personal judge, for heaven's sake.....i am not saying it, his own mpa, ayaz amir is........and there is a recorded conversation of the judge supporting this......

p.s........i am still waiting for you to identify the following:

1. when was najam sethi the national security advisor, and does such a position even exist in pakistan
2. where in the text of sethi's speech did he say that pakistan is a, "failed state"....he had made the exact same speech in national defence college in pakistan
3. is it a crime for a pakistani to go to india and say that pakistan is a failed state?...please quote the law under which it is a crime....

#192 Posted by nasah,

Did you hear his quote from the Adiala Jail when asked how he was being treated?

He said "They're treating me fine just as they're supposed to ... just as the other prisoners".

Aitezaz is a rare breed of men.

#168 Posted by HP

We saw Nawaz standing up to the army in 1999 and I feel that the next time the army may have to kill the PM in the PM house to get the power again. They may have to kill the Pakistani intelligentsia in the stadiums to maintain the forcible acquisition of power.

Well said HP. I see you're out of your peon of the west (moniker courtesy masadi) mode, or getting there fast.

RELEASE AITZAZ AHSAN
RELEASE AITZAZ AHSAN

RELEASE AITZAZ AHSAN
RELEASE AITZAZ AHSAN

Re: # 159 Posted by hamidm2 on November 21, 2007 12:28:44 pm

[....... it is nice to know that zeemax agrees with me, arjun and tahmed that you are the ultimate idiot ........]

except for tahmed, you are, once again, on the wrong side of the chowk. Although, for the most part, I do like zeemax's posts when he remains authentic.

#187 Posted by bulleya,

LoL:

.. murder case against ss ordering the police to kill five men. The men were gunned down in Lahore in 1998"

Is that about corruption?

It's about extra-judicial killing; and Shahbaz Sharif came back to face the court over charges but musharraf deported him back despite a high-court judgement and despite outstanding arrest warrants against him.

.. cases related to Hudebia paper Mills, Itefaq Foundry and Riawind real estate

I see you've had to work hard googling. Hudaybia Paper Mills and Ittefaq Foundary were handed over (alongwith many other assets) by NS after the coup in 1999 as part of his settlement with musharraf. This case is about 'valuation' of the mills, and not about any corruption.

The Raiwind case is simply an enquiry into the source of funds and not a corruption charge. NS too came back to face both the above on Sept 10 and you know what happened.

Give up bulleya. You've just proven yourself to be a simpleton who knows nothing.

Sorry, but it's the truth.

Justice Qayyum and Nawas Sharif - Nawaz's special judge:
--------------------------------------------------------

Ayaz amir is one of the loyal members of pml(n) i.e. nawaz sharif's party...he is also a well know journalist.......one of the small % of guys who did not dump nawaz sharif to join pml (q).....following is what he wrote about nawaz sharif and a justice who was on nawaz sharif's team......this justice had his conversation recorded, when he was talking about nawaz sharif's cases:

"WHAT the publication of the Hamoodur Rahman Report did for the army, the Justice Qayyum tapes as revealed by the Sunday Times have done for the higher judiciary......this is the value of the Qayyum tapes. The light they cast throws in sharp relief the judiciary's feet of clay.

....His Lordship Justice Malik Qayyum addressing Khalid Anwer, Nawaz Sharif's then lord chancellor, as "sir" and declaring himself to be his servant (khadim).

...Need we be surprised by the audacity of the interference and the readiness of Justice Qayyum to oblige his interlocutors?

.....Civilian rulers have treated the judiciary no better, each one of them seeking pliant judges. Judges too have demeaned themselves by seeking small favours.

With regard to Justice Qayyum, moreover, these subtle considerations in any event do not apply. In the sacred precincts of the Lahore High Court he has enjoyed a special standing because of his identification with the personal problems of the Sharif dynasty. Anything affecting the family's interests has come to him for adjudication, almost as if he alone possessed the requisite delicacy to handle these matters. The division of the family's assets between its contending factions, cases involving the family's huge bank loans, and even the banking loans of Nawaz Sharif's principal errand boy, Saifur Rehman, were all attracted, as if by a powerful magnet, to Justice Qayyum's court and no other.

This no doubt was the preferred style of the Sharifs, not only fashioning a personalized administration, with loyalists at key positions, but also arranging for a personalized form of justice. When their name was involved in the cooperatives' scandal of 1991, the Supreme Court judge selected to hold a judicial inquiry into the affair was Justice Lone who exonerated the Sharifs of any wrongdoing. Later, during Nawaz Sharif's second stint as prime minister, Lone became a PML senator.

Justice Qayyum (whose brother, incidentally, was a PML MNA) is a throwback to those interesting times. Small wonder if it was he who was chosen to be Benazir Bhutto's and Asif Zardari's principal nemesis. All the important cases against them were heard by him. To Justice Qayyum also belongs the triumph of reducing Benazir Bhutto to tears in open court, so zealous was he in the pursuit of justice. All this forms the backdrop to the tapes revealed by the Sunday Times.

Justice Qayyum had been hand-picked to hear the cases against Benazir Bhutto because, as the contents of the tapes make clear, he was considered a loyalist who could be counted upon to do what was expected of him. And yet Nawaz Sharif not only kept the pressure on Justice Qayyum through Khalid Anwer and Saifur Rehman. He also ordered all of Justice Qayyum's telephones to be bugged, probably just to make sure that his zeal did not flag.


http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/20010209.htm

is this the same Qayyum who is now the attorney general of pakistan on musharraf's team, hounding nawaz sharif.....if so, what a turn around....

#185 Posted by bulleya,

Yaar bulleya, do you really believe what everyone says? Or you read in the newspapers? I mean ... you should have been above that. Did you believe there were WMDs in Iraq when everyone was saying there were? I didn't. Not for a single moment. Because I believe none of what I hear and only half of what I see.

You say:

....the fact is that the supreme court of pakistan was physically stormed by the supporters of nawaz sharif, in an organized fashion.....do you agree or disagree.....

Of-course it was stormed. All I'm saying is that it was 'hular baazi' and not a plan by NS. I said NS's explanation is most plausible because the course of events supports this explanation, and not because NS said that.

zeemax #: "I notice you haven't come up with any corruption cases against NS.....merely organised disinformation and character assassination."

....there is a long list of cases against nawaz sharif and shahbaz sharif.....here are two:

- murder case against ss ordering the police to kill five men. The men were gunned down in Lahore in 1998"

- cases related to Hudebia paper Mills, Itefaq Foundry and Riawind real estate

.......these cases are still officially open.......which is why i stated, "not to mention the fact that nawaz has a long list of corruption cases against him...."

#180/181 Posted by bulleya

Who kidnapped Najam Sethi: / Who removed Sajjad Shah

Don't believe what Najam Sethi says. He's an interested party. Look at the the events. Look at why ISI is saying they intervened as you said. Look at why musharraf says he got him released. Look at the correlations between all the above. MI had picked him up and MI had released him.

As for Sajjad Shah, same as above. Except that perhaps you're unaware of Leghari's role in the whole affair. It was a classic palace intrigue worthy of a case study at Harvard.

zeemax #: "The incident was no more than 'Hullar Baazi' over entry passes. This is Nawaz Sharif's own explanation, and it is the most plausible."

hmm.....so nawaz's own explanation is plausible...there is a video of the court being stormed......an actual video....the case was heard, and people were punished.....you can call it hullar baazi or whatever else....the fact is that the supreme court of pakistan was physically stormed by the supporters of nawaz sharif, in an organized fashion.....do you agree or disagree.....


"You're saying that NS appearing before the same judge whom you accuse NS of removing is immaterial...."

yes, this is immaterial.......if i go before a judge, does that give me the right to storm his court and remove him, afterwards?....if that is the case, then anyone can appear before the judge and get rid of him, if he discovers he was to rule against him......

did ns get rid of sajjad shah or not?......simple question with a simple answer.......yes he did...... read sajjad's own interview.......

"Sethi was the National Security adviser during one of the interim governments. I don't remember whether"

...which govt. was it? please highlight.......i know he was an advisor in leghari's govt. on political affairs.....does pakistan even have the post of national security advisor?...i don't think it does, but i am not sure......but if it does, do highlight when sethi held it.......and even if he did, so what.....he can still go to india and make speeches.....the indian general who planned siachen, comes to pakistan.......should india arrest him?

"Thereafter, MI picked him up. It had nothing to do with NS"

.....this is getting hilarious........you are truly clinging to straws.... read sethi's own comments .......he, himself, states that ns had him picked up, through punjab police and IB (not MI)......

#182 Posted by bulleya,

Yes, it was a post which was not before Sethi or since. But this was indeed the post he occupied. It was created during one of the interim governments. Do ask Najam Sethi or Jugnu or Salman Taseer. They will confirm it.

#178 Posted by bulleya,

I don't know what Khwaja Saad Rafique says. My point was that Ch. Shujaat, the PM before Shaukat Aziz and an arch enemy of NS now, was the federal interior minister at the time of the incident. Are you saying he was complicit?

The incident was no more than 'Hullar Baazi' over entry passes. This is Nawaz Sharif's own explanation, and it is the most plausible.

...whether he appeared or not, is immaterial.....

This is really crazy. You're saying that NS appearing before the same judge whom you accuse NS of removing is immaterial.

Sethi was the National Security adviser during one of the interim governments. I don't remember whether it was Moin Qureshi's or Laghari's. And the charge on him was exactly what I said. He had gone to India in a seminar and had spoken at length trying to prove Pakistan to be a failed state. Thereafter, MI picked him up. It had nothing to do with NS.

I notice you haven't come up with any corruption cases against NS. Given up eh?

All that talk about NS corruption is merely organised disinformation and character assassination. If you consider NS and his brother handed out billions of dollars of contracts on the motorways and the airports plus rebuilding of Lahore, and there's not even a single charge in courts despite musharraf's 8 years of desperate attempts?

Bhai, NS is the only hope for Pakistan, and I will tell you why. This nation needs a national consensus desperately, and NS has obtained that consensus not once but twice during his short and interrupted tenures. One was the NFC award (the federal revenue sharing agreement) which had not been achieved since ZAB, and the other was the 1992 Water accord.

If NS had not been removed in this manner, Kala Bagh Dam would be complete by now.

Besides, his economic liberalization blueprint launched with the Protection of Economic Reforms act - 1992 is still being followed by musharraf throughout his regime.

Pakistan is a very difficult country to govern. One must look at the end results achieved by any ruler rather than on personal limitations and petty idiosyncrasies of the same.

Was Sethi the National Security Advisor:
----------------------------------------

I know Sethi was Sethi, was adviser on Political Affairs and Accountability to the Caretaker Prime Minister......but was he the National Security Advisor, as highlighted by Zeemax......

I didn't even know that Pakistan had the post of national secuirty advisor........there is a national security council, but is their a national security advisor......if anyone has any info on it, please highlight......

Who removed Sajjad Shah - interview:
------------------------------------

Once again, following is fromm Sajjad Shah's own mouth.....he was the cj who was removed by NS......one should note that he was to listen to more than simply contempt of court against ns.......there were corruption cases also......

"Pakistan Today: When you were the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and it came under attack by the Muslim League, there were at least three or four references against Nawaz Sharif pending in your court. Do you have any comments about their credibility?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: Yes, my anxiety at that time was, that the complaints contained allegations of corruption, and the cases should be looked into according to the law. Nawaz Sharif thought, because he was Prime Minister, the cases should not proceed against him. And, you see, the anxiety was that all should be treated equally under the law. He did not want those cases to be heard. That is because he did not believe in the rule of law. If there is no rule of law, then the system would collapse. This is what has happened in the country. there is no rule of law, no respect for it.

Pakistan Today: Your removal was illegitimate, do you think they should offer you your position back?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: It is too late. Unless they amend the constitution. And the constitution should not be amended for one person. I want my country to be saved. Pakistan is a great country. I want the country to survive. For that I am prepared to offer my services in any capacity because I want the system to be saved. "

http://www.paktoday.com/shah.htm

Who kidnapped Najam Sethi:
--------------------------

najam sethi wrote his personal accout of how nawaz sharif had him picked up, in his newspaper......i remember reading it.......i will see if i can find it.....following is an article by one of his friends, explaining it, where he quotes an email from sethi.......

"My case was quite bizarre. An armed posse of the Punjab Police and the IB [Intelligence Bureau] smashed its way into my bedroom at 2:30 am on May 8th, 1999, beat up my wife and me, gagged me, blindfolded me, handcuffed me and dragged me away. I was in their custody for many hours.

Then I was handed over to the ISI. The ISI kept me in a safe house first in Lahore and then in Islamabad . It investigated everything, found that the treason charges against me were trumped up politically by the Prime Minister (PM) and then confidentially told me that it was under pressure from the PM to court martial me. But it said that Gen Mush [sic] was against the idea of any military involvement in my case and was telling the PM that the civilians should handle it.

In due course, the ISI actually protected me from the IB which wanted to take me away for a few days and "fix" me at the behest of the PM and Saif ur-Rehman.......It was the ISI's clean chit of health that persuaded the Supreme Court (SC) to put pressure on the civilian government to release me. But within a day of releasing me, the government lodged a case of treason in a civil court against me and tried to arrest me again; but Justice Mamoon Qazi of the SC stepped in and judged that I could not be arrested in any case without the government's first showing the evidence against me to the SC. When I was released, I told the BBC in an interview that the ISI was largely responsible for my well-being.

Incidentally, the so-called "anti-Pakistan" speech that I was supposed to have made in India, which was the basis of the charge against me, was the same speech that I had made at the National Defence College in Islamabad earlier on the basis of which I had duly received a formal letter from the NDC commending me for having obtained the "highest marks ever" from the NDC for a presentation before the college.

The real reason why I was arrested by Nawaz Sharif had to do with a BBC documentary in which I had taken part, exposing the corruption of the PM. I was interviewed by the BBC in Pakistan two days before I left for India . The IB found out and informed the PM. Saif ur-Rehman called me and asked what I had told the BBC. I told him: "everything." "Negative or positive?" he asked. "Is there anything positive in your regime?" I replied. "We will get you," he warned.

That was that. They used the India thing to try and silence and discredit me so that my BBC testimony would be rejected by the people. Then they took the BBC to court in London for potential libel and threatened to close down its operations in Pakistan if the film was shown to Pakistani audiences. Then a “settlement” took place between the two parties--the BBC film was subsequently shown in the UK but never in South Asia . Before showing the film in the UK, the BBC asked me whether I wanted to censor or edit my statements against the PM in the film in view of what had happened. I said “no.” Everything I said was on the record and should be shown.

When Saif ur-Rehman was arrested in 1999 after the coup, he got his wife to phone me and ask for my "forgiveness." Later, Shahbaz Sharif called from exile and claimed he had never been a party to my ordeal and apologised on behalf of the Sharif family. Nawaz Sharif's son Hussain met me in London two years [later] and also apologised. Other members of that government have also apologised. But Nawaz is still silent.

http://hnn.us/articles/3968.html

hamidm mian #: "first he says that he was in the airforce, now he turns around and tells us that one of his 'course mates' with the initials 'nh' is going to take over the army ..... i am confused - we need to do some research on this guy"

hmm....the three forces train together now......have been doing so for 25 years or more........cadets are exchanged between the three training institutes.......not sure if this is still going on.......but during our days, there were plans of making one large joint academy, so as a precursor, they combined all the training for the first two years......

hope that clarifies.....if it still doesn't, then i think you are simply trying to find some issue on which to prove me wrong......you will have to try much harder than this, i am afraid.......

zeemax #: "In fact, the disturbance was over supporters with passes.....They tried to force their way in. There was no 'Storming of SC'...."

this is totally untrue......the mob that stormed the supreme court was led by nawaz sharif's mna from lahore.....his name is khwaja saad rafiq.......i met him, myself, with a few people, and he told us the story......he lives in lcchs lahore....pls ask him, if you can get in touch with him.....

he said they had gathered there to protest......however, things got out of control, and they ended up storming the supreme court......i am not sure where you heard the story about passes.....

"And he was also the only sitting Prime Minister EVER to appear before a judge in person when summoned..."

this has nothing to do with the issue....he had the cj removed......sajjad shah was removed, through a breakup of the supreme court by ns......this is a fact.....whether he appeared or not, is immaterial.....if we use this logic, then musharraf actually follwed a cj ruling against him.....

"No one has ever been jailed for contempt."

i said removed, not jailed......ns would have been removed from power; at worst......however, his party would have still been in power, and they could have elected a new pm.....democracy would have prospered.....

basically, ns did the same thing musharraf did.......removed the cj when he was to rule against him........and ns went after the press, when it criticised him.......

"No. It was the Military intelligence which picked him up.."

pls read sethi's own account of the incidence.....he says everything was done by ns......there is no law that says a person cannot go to india and say pakistan is a failed state.......is there? ......although i don't remember seeing this word in his speech.....and was he the national security advisor in leghari's govt?

let's not get carried away.......lets stick to facts.....ns is no angel......the guy has done much of what musharraf has done.......both need to be out......as should bb....

Benazir gives green light to PPP workers to Participate in Elections without a constitution. There's no end to kanjarpana.

In the meantime:

Geo TV website under another DDoS attack:

KARACHI: Geo TV website came under DDoS attack for the second time at around 8pm on Wednesday, after which a very significant source of information is temporarily disconnected.

These kanjars have code coolies too !

majumdar #175 If these wargames were timed without thought to the situation across the border, then as an Indian you should be very worried about what they were thinking.

On your question on "casus beli", I think I already described that earlier (i.e. western fears of Pakistan nuclear bombs falling into al qaeda hands in case of an all out civil war in Pakistan).

On your question on how the current trouble neutralizes nukes - I didnt say it "neutralizes" them. I am saying that under one possible scenario (i.e. all out civil war where the Pakistan Army itself is divided into pro- and anti-Musharraf groups), these bombs could fall into al qaeda hands. Of course, events would have to take a particular course for this "nightmare scenario" to arise - i.e. Musharraf continuing his disastrous course, the opposition taking more and more to the streets, soldiers refusing to kill any more demonstrators.

Of course one hopes that Musharraf will change from being "oversmart and overambitious" to just plain smart and realize his game is up. Or that the opposition is able to keep the demonstrations peaceful even as Musharraf's police continue to bloody their heads every time there is a demonstration. But if that doesnt happen, then this nightmare scenario becomes a possibility.

Tahmed sahib,

(But please note that the timing of wargames is also considered significant)

Sadly I am not expert on military affairs having failed to graduate beyond Commando Comics but really we need to find out whether the current war games were a part of a long drawn scheudle of exercises or a sudden afterthought. Also I understand that neighbouring countries are informed well in advance.

(if they are undertaken during troubled times, then they are often seen as an indication of preparations for war. )

If that is the case what would be the casus belli? And how does the current trouble neutralise the Paki nukes?

Re: 172 I think it is very far fetched, I think the Pakis are getting too pessimistic. I am not understating the seriousness of the whole situation- without any doubt it is the worst since 1971, but pakistan is nowhere near a meltdown stage.

Regards

majumdar #173 Yes, you mentioned that earlier. But please note that the timing of wargames is also considered significant - if they are undertaken during troubled times, then they are often seen as an indication of preparations for war.

I am not saying that the scenario indicated in #172 is certain by any means. But it could happen if Musharraf continues in his disastrous course of insisting on absolute power and the popular opposition to Musharraf refuses to accede to his demands - which could lead to all out civil war in Pakistan. In which case NATO forces to the west may very well team up with Indian forces to the east in order to prevent nuclear weapons falling into Al Qaeda hands.

Tahmed sahib,

(and the Indian military has used this time to play "wargames" across the border).

How many times do I have to tell you this- Wargames are nothing but keep fit exercises, particularly relevant in India since our army does not get any by way of storming courts and climbing the gates of PM house.

Regards

HP #169 There is no doubt that there could be consequences of the current turmoil in Pakistan that neither the "oversmart" dictator nor anyone struggling for democracy could have foreseen. After all, history teaches us that civil wars and strife can lead to unexpected consequences. Thus: No doubt that fears of Pakistan's nuclear weapons falling into Al Qaeda hands (who could then use them to destroy entire cities, since destruction is all they are capable of) is a key western concern today, and it would be surprising if counter-measures are not being considered. Our friends in India would no doubt be jumping at the opportunity to join in any such action (and the Indian military has used this time to play "wargames" across the border).

So, if Jinnah made Pakistan, Musharraf and his desire for power may very well destroy Pakistan (i.e. nuclear weapons taken away, Pakistan reduced militarily with India then becoming the unchallenged military power in the region).

This sounds far-fetched, I know. But it is a very real possibility.

#160 Posted by tahmed32,

Romair is an amiable enough person who does not fly of the handle at the drop of a hat

Yeah tell me about it. After his misinformed rant based solely on organized character assassination of NS, he teaches me the definition of an idiot !!!

It may not be flying off the handle, but it is certainly akin to shoving up a broom handle and pretending to be a peacock (mor) !!!

Re: # 169 HP
Gosh! you sound real worried. Being a Jeay sindh activist, shouldn't you be drooling at the prospect of the break up of Pakistan?

Asadi,Tahmed and other please read this report and especially see the maps that go with that.

http://www.senliscouncil.net/modules/publications/Afghanistan_on_the_br ink/documents/Afghanistan_on_the_brink

See the maps on page 7 and 25
The NATO plus solution is in the works and the report recommends:
Recommendation 1: “NATO Plus”: Double the NATO forces in the area, double the ground troops; Caveat-free, MOVE IN TO PAKISTAN” and this is the real game in which the stupid Generals are willing partners.

However, what's most intriguing is the Council's support for a very hawkish policy of the kind being pushed by the bipartisan politicians in the US Houses of Congress. The proposal is simple: given that there is no intention of withdrawing, a huge boost in troop commitment has to be demanded of all NATO members, and the war has to be expanded into Pakistan. The Taliban is known to operate across borders, and the Pakistani army is reluctant to engage in battle with them for a variety of reasons. Clearly, part of the US pressure on Musharraf is aimed at his inability to be a reliable puppet, while Benazir Bhutto's rhetoric about 'extremists' is clearly intended to capture that vital Washington constituency. There have already been cross-border attacks, but would Bhutto or any future Pakistani government permit the US to operate extensively in Pakistan? Would such actions hinder or boost the popular movement resisting Musharraf's dictatorship? The report doesn't ponder on such questions, or the obvious answers.

Perhaps most importantly, the report states that 'foreign fighters' from across what Brzezinski calls the "global Balkans" including Pakistan, Uzbekistan and Xinjiang, are acting as force-multipliers for the Taliban insurgency. How much of this is real information and how much is 'intelligence' obtained through torture, or straightforward propaganda? Unlike other parts of the report, which comprises some independent research, much of this appears to be distilled from think-tanks and Western newspapers. At any rate, though the report strikes a technocratic note, the context makes clear that the "Nato+" solution would constitute an aggressive strike to bring south Asia under US control. When both Obama and Clinton make noises about potential aggression in Pakistan, we have to take it as a warning sign. This war may send the whole region up in flames.

#97 Posted by tahmed32
"On the bigger issue, I of course fully agree. The military in Pakistan has to be put in its place - it's job is to serve the Pakistani people, not rule over them. The central question is How?"

There can be many answers to that but sure most of them require strong will on the part of the Pakistani middleclass and others in the urban centers to understand that the army rule is not in Pakistan’s interest.

The first thing is for the politicians to take a stand and the politicians will only take that stand when they know that the people are steadfastly against the army rule.

Just look at Benazir. She almost signed a blank check but when she got to Pakistan the first thing she learned was that her own party workers will not support her association with the army. What no one reported from her Karachi procession that was bombed by the intelligence that most of the slogans during the procession were anti Musharaf and anti America. She quickly began to back away from her support to Musharaf. She is not in a position now to make a deal with the army because the public pressure has forced her to take a stand. She may not like it but she has to listen to her party workers. We can say that both BB and Nawaz at some point of time will make the deal with the army and the US but so far the public pressure has prevented them to make that deal. This certainly provides a ray of hope.

What I gather from Pakistan is that whole society at large is disgusted with the army shenanigans. Army can still keep the power because it has the guns. But the public pressure eventually will force the army to back off. We have seen the Junta rules in South America, they are all pretty much history now. Even the worst of the worst junta rule in Chile ended when people did not let up.

No doubt things are complicated in Pakistan. With the WOT, the US interests in the area and the oil politics in the region, things are not going to be easy but often a way is found in some very complicated situations. I think if Pakistanis are able to remove the current CAOS Musharaf, it is highly likely that next COAS will have to repeat the Chile of 1973 to get to the power. We saw Nawaz standing up to the army in 1999 and I feel that the next time the army may have to kill the PM in the PM house to get the power again. They may have to kill the Pakistani intelligentsia in the stadiums to maintain the forcible acquisition of power.

bulleya#143
Don't be fooled by appearance.
Imran Khan is alternative to whatever first dispensation is for Army and America on paper. (I cannot speak on behalf of Allah). Unfortunately he is too different to accomodate within current or any political dispensation. And he has a big baggage of Sita Whites and their children. At best he can make happy a few people, but alienate a lot in the process. He is probably worse than BB in this regard. Moreover he has a Huqqa Party (party of five people) and apart from nuisance value to different parties or group, I am not much optimistic about him. Moreover apart from playing cricket (which he does no more) and womanizing (which is concealed), he has no brains but rhetorics (that is precisely the reason for him being alternative ).
Personally I think he might have a shot in 1999 when he was propped up by a certain group of PSEUDOISLAMIC PSEUDOREVOLUTANARIES in the Army as a face to fulfill their agenda.

Naqshbandi:
Does that mean we are going to witness another killing of Tajiks, Uzbuks. Another closing of education on women. And last but not least balding for wearing shorts in football match by Pakistani team.
It looks like People have short memory span and long avenging span.
I don't think, Army rule or not, Pakistanis will accept to go back to stone age (even without American bombing).
A lot of Pakistanis have family abroad and they are much aware of development and its advantage.

hamidm: You are just jealous of Romair because he is so well connected and so knowledgeable about military matters.

Re: # 162

Come to think of it I almost invited you out for drink bcos you were after gopinath's grandson!!!! I guess it will have to be Salim only.

giani

Re: # 162

Come to think of it I almost invited you out for drink bcos you were after gopinath's grandson!!!! I guess it will have to be Salim only.

giani

Re: # 160

tahmed,

....... i resent romair because he makes all us pakis look bad in front of these horrible hindoo hyenas (not that most of us are not capable of doing it ourselves) ....... and then he confuses the shite out of me ... first he says that he was in the airforce, now he turns around and tells us that one of his 'course mates' with the initials 'nh' is going to take over the army ..... i am confused - we need to do some research on this guy .......... you know anybody in the ms branch?

Re: # 156

naqshbandi,

... i think that will be just fine - when mahmud gahz