Why the American War on Terror is Failing Miserably

Re: # 247

zeemax,

.......... how much do you want to bet that geo will be back on air soon, with hamid mir and the rest of them taking a 'soft' approach towards the government in the interest of national unity and all that jazz .......

...... and don't get too excited about the abdul aziz types .......... these primitive cave dwellers are a nuisance and a pain in the butt, but they too can be bought off like the 'mainstream' politicians, or simply killed like the animals that they are ..........personally i don't believe in wasting money on them .....

#245 Posted by bulleya,

I agree with this post.

......the million dollar question is what will be the vehicle through which it is released.....

Remember Lal Masjid? That's the vehicle through which it will be released, and Abdul-Rashid Ghazi's portraits will replace those of M.A Jinnah as Quaid-e-Azam.

That's the truth. No disrespect meant to M.A Jinnah of-course.

so:

1. musharraf + mqm + pml(q) on one side
2. pml(n) + pti + anp + baluchi parties on one side
3. bb on one side
4. jui(f) on one side

three questions:
1. where will jamaat go......it could go with 2, as that is where political direction lies currently.....or it could go with 4, as that is where its ideological directions lies

2. will bb join 1, or will she join 2

3. will jui(f) join 1 or remain in 4

the best case for establishment is that bb and jui(f) join 1, or at least agree to compete against them

the best case for judges (and for pakistan) is for bb to join 2......if she does this, i think musharraf is probably screwed, and pml(q) is totally screwed (while mqm will survive, regardless of what happens).......

#243 Posted by hamidm2,

Yeah I can understand about ARY. Pity, isn't it?

Problem was Dr. Shahid Masood. ARY found him but had to fire him out of pressure, and then GEO picked him up. Now ARY has fired the rest of their main anchors as well and back on air, while GEO has been demolished. Even their webcasts have stopped.

What can I say? ARY are businessmen, not journalists, with a lot of other businesses at stake in Pakistan. GEO are journalists of the Jang Group and have support of civil society.

Re: # 243

zeemax,

....... just to show that i haven't given up ... yet, i am still hoping that nawaz sharif and bb will boycott the elections and let the chaudharys, musharraf, maulana fazloo and the rest of the jokers hang themselves with their own rope ........ this is the only way to get rid of the military-mullah-cattlethief kleptocracy ....... imran khan and asghar khan sitting out the elections is like the lions sitting out of the super bowl ........

....my opinion has been that smart money is on Urstruly....i.e. Jamaat types are going to rise within a few years.....because the current secular enlightened moderates of musharraf, mqm + maybe bb are bankrupt and will continue the downslide of society.....thereby raisng the stock of religious right.......

however, now Urstruly has dumped Jamaat etc......so smart money cannot be on Urstruly, or it cannot be on Jamaat types......

.....so what is the vehicle through which the common unheard (non-Chowk) pakistani (perhaps over 75% of the population) find its voice, if the religious right and the secular liberals are discredited...as is the army....

is it going to be the religious extreme right.......if the army's current operations in wazirstan to swat fail (which they will fail, in my opinion), then there are big reprecussions.....and if musharraf, mqm and bb end up running pakistan, with their loyalties to foreign countries, then there are even bigger problems.......

all this pressure will have to be released from somewhere......the million dollar question is what will be the vehicle through which it is released.....

#241 Posted by Urstruly,

I agree with you, but a hell of a lot of blood will be spilt in that manner. In fact, what you say appears to be the obvious and inevitable outcome of the current crisis.

Why I favour NS is because only NS offers a middle alternative, and a sturdy one.

After all, he did the nuke tests in the face of great intimidation from across the seas.

Re: # 240

zeemax,

.... to prove my point ....... have you tuned in to ary oneworld today? ......... it is back on air and sounds like ptv ..... and i just heard shahbaz sharif in a new armani suit talking about coming back to pakistan to serve the poor people on the 25th ....... i think the people of pakistan are getting set up to get screwed again by the same set of scounderals ..... why don't we act like the pederast mullahs and their madrassa boys so that we can at least enjoy it this time around ..........

shankar #: "I thought you were the eternal optimist. Thats why I'm surprised to hear you say Pakistan has had it after your last visit!....."

.......i try to be an optimist in my personal life...but, when describing an issue or place on this site, i try to be as objective as possible....i had my first real insight into pakistan about two years ago.....i was in pakistan for six months, and got to meet a lot of these, "leaders" face to face......i had never had an opportunity to discuss issues with people in such high places, previously in my life ......after these interactions, i came to the following conclusions:

- pakistan military is beyond repair and totally degenarated....i used to think it was only the generals.....now i am convinced that as an institution it is totally degenerated.....the only thing anyone above the rank of major wanted to discuss with me was plots.....

- pakistan's burecracy is so corrupt it is unbelivable......i already knew it was corrupt, but this was an eye-opener......

- pakisatni politicians are sell-outs....i already knew this, but it was interesting hearing it from their own mouths.....having said that, my opinion of politicians has improved, from very bad to bad.......

- interestingly, there were two institutions and two specific individauls that i ranked quite highly (and mentioned it on chowk also)....one was the media, the other were lawyers and to some extent judiciary......that has proven to be true.....

similarly, there were two politicians that all the politicians spoke highly of.....one very senior guy from ppp actually said, that these were the only two decent politicians in pakistan.......imran khan and aitezaz ahsan.......that has proven correct.......

......if the judiciary wins out against the establishment, pakistan will have made a quantum leap towards stability.......much like it has earlier made due to its fast economic progress, in comparison to other south asian countries, since 47.......if the establishment wins, then the next rise will be of the religious right........and then eventually anarchy......

"Also, I hear you visited India. Havent heard your impressions""

yes, i am spending nearly all my professional time with indian companies......and am in india regularly now......at least once every four to six months or so......more on this later.......india is doing quite well.......it has got its marbles straight, and will continue moving ahead.....not at the pace, everyone keeps saying, but it will keep going ahead.......

at the moment, i found the infrastructure in paksitan actually better.....so one cannot really tell the difference.......but pakistan is pointed downwards, and india moving upwards.......

Re: # 238

I agree with hamidm here about NS (and political class in general). See the criterion is simple. The most pressing issue in this country today is the absolute failure of state apparatus and military; the civil war; and the freedom struggle in Afghanistan that has now reached Islamabad. Just as neocolonialists in Afghanistan think that the source of all their troubles lies in Pakistan, so do the freedom fighters over there are of the opinion that unless they crush the head of this snake (Pakistan)fdirst they cannot harm the mother of all serpents (US). No political leader in Pakistan dares address these issues.

The senseless and extrajusicial murder of Pakistani citizens using the full force and fury of state appratus is on no politician's agenda.

The re-enactment of judiciary has taken back seat.

So this is the bottomline:

- Any election under this harami is invalid.
- Any government formed under this harami or any other harami in uniform is invalid.

- Any politician who takes part in any election under this harami is a part of harami brigade.

Even a second grader would understand that this harami is allowing NS to comeback to lend some credibility to the political system he intends to establish. NS will discredit himself just like Bezamir did if he takes part in this farce.

But I do not need to tell these things to anyone. It is written on the wall that anyone who is going to take part in protecting the status quo in any shape or form should have nine lives. It is not going to be bed of rose anymore. Pakistani citizenary has picked up weapons against this corrupt and deadly system and would not let the corrupt ruling elite has its way anymore. A time of reckonning is upon us all.

#239 Posted by hamidm2,

That's defeatist. Have Faith in people.

(Oh but I forgot, you reject all kinds of 'faith')

Re: # 234

zeemax,

.... you and tahmed are hopeless optimists in your own way .... in the end one of you will end up drinking the milk and other will have to eat the goat droppings like the rest of us .......... nothing, my friend is going to change and as much as i like my namesake, hamid mir, i don't think he is any different from the rest of the crowd ....... in a crowd of pygmies a man who stands at four feet looks like a giant .........

Just a reminder ...

The problem is, and has always been the army top brass.

ZAB confronted the army top brass and got hanged. Nawaz Sharif confronted the army top brass too and almost got hanged.

But he is smarter than ZAB. He called on favours done to powerful people and bided his time in exile and saved his life. But hasn't stopped confronting the top brass.

A dead man is no good. Better to live and fight.

#236 Posted by tahmed32,

So you didn't listen to that speech. That's alright.

Then of-course you wouldn't have a clue how that speech is embedded in publics mind, and rightfully so.

zeemax #32 a picture is worth a thousand words. i dont need to listen to NS speeches. his actions - e.g. storming of the Supreme Court, the 18th amendment - show his mindset is the same as that of musharraf. as is benazir. and the maulvis are not even worth mentioning, since they are only dumber versions of musharraf/ns/bb types.

That is why I keep saying - it is the system that is important. not the individuals.

#231 hamidm: There was no democracy in germany or japan either until after WWII. There was no democracy in India until after 1947. There was no democracy in South Korea either until Park (or whatever his name was) was overthrown. There is no democracy in Russia either, with Putin going the extra mile to have the opposition jailed or murdered. There was no democracy in Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Hungary, East Germany, and the rest East Europe and no democracy in Argentina, Chile, Brazil and a good deal of the rest of Latin America until the Cold War ended. There was no democracy in Turkey - until recently. Indonesia after Suharto has a much stronger rule of law than before and is well on its way to becoming a democracy. Same thing in Malaysia.

With the growth of the middle classes, it is a question of time before people figure out that the Big Man is merely a scoundrel lording it over them on the pretext of being a savior. Whether the scoundrel is wearing a uniform, a beard or merely a "national dress" of one kind of another - it doesnt matter.

#233 Posted by hamidm2,

I admire your finally coming around to read the writing on the wall.

But there's still hope. There's always hope. The civil society street movement is taking off headed by who else but the reasonably Islamist ex-TV anchors like Hamid Mir and Talat Hussain ...

Let's see if the kanjars finally choose which side they're on!

Re: # 230

bubba,

... what executive branch?.... which legislature and what judiciary? ....... the british left sixty years ago and we need to drop those pretentious trappings of civilization and return to our roots ...... you cannot put on a cummberband, riase your glass and make a toast ... rooh afza is not a substitute for scotch ....... there is no point in going on with this laughable charade ........

ameer ul momineen mullah fazlullah zindabad!

#226 Posted by tahmed32,

tahmed32, Nawaz Sharif is the closest to the people of this country. If you had heard his speech upon his resignation after the dismissal by GHK and SC restoration, you would know what I'm talking about.

Did you hear that speech?

Re: # 229

tahmed,

... you are a pretty smart guy - i am just trying to point out that there are no 'saviours' in pakistan because we don't have any - not one - honest man (or woman) ..... it is in our genes, culture, whatever ......

.......... ever wonder why there is no democracy of rule of law in any muslim country from morocco to indonesia ? ....... you might want to look for some, not all, answers in the 'constitution' of mecca and medina and the nepotism of the abominable four and his successors, the sauds ........

Re: # 228 Posted by hamidm2 on November 23, 2007 9:00:07 am

sad to see you, of all people, posting such thoughts.

[the supreme court was trying to establish yet another state within the state], but the executive branch was busy stealing Pakistan. Did you not know that? Since when has challenging the corrupt executive branch of the government wrong.

#228 hamidm: i never claimed to be smart. so i dont need to fall in line. And if I had ambitions of being a "somebody" in Pakistan, I wouldnt be wasting time on chowk. btw, I dont think you need a job in Pakistan either, and are sucking up to the "rising sun" for nothing.

Re: # 226

tahmed,

....... i am fascinated by your fascination with the supreme court ..... it was beginning to display the same 'feudal' characteristics as the army, benazir or nawaz sharif by taking suo-moto notice of anything and everything under the sun .... in fact, like mullah fazlulah, the kanjars of lal masjid and the goons in khaki, the supreme court was trying to establish yet another state within the state .......... we are all the same - kanjaroon and havayoon ........

........ trust me, it is going to be deja vu all over again .......... f you were smart, you too would fall in line - maybe like dr nasim ashraf you can get something out of the next round of bandar baant ........

hamidm: Sure you are a nobody in Pakistan. So am I and everyone else. That is all the more reason for you not to kow-tow to the "rising sun" and try to see things in Pakistan in a more rational way.

PS: even mush is a nobody - except he doesnt know that. since in due course we will all be worm's meal, having misspent the little time we had to rant around.

zeemax: Focus on the system, not the individual. Under today's corrupt system (thanks to Musharraf's destroying the Supreme Court), Nawaz Sharif (or any other individual) may very well end up playing another Shaukat Aziz.

ISLAMABAD, Nov 1, 2008: Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto appointed Imran Khan as Chief Dog Catcher of Pakistan and Retd. CJ Iftikhar Chaudhary as his deputy. The cermemony at the PM House was attended by Leader of the Opposition, Mian Nawaz Sharif, Mullah Fazal ur Rehman, the CM of NWFP and Chaudhary Mohsin Elahi, the Chief Minister of Punjab.

President Musharraf congratulated Imran Khan on his appointment and sent him a lollipop. He also sent a lollipop to Mr. Tahmed and Mr Ayaz Amir as a consolation prize. Mr Tahmed continues to cry inconsolably.

A prophetic post by my most revered interactor, ever, on Chowk. Roohi Allah Ditta aka RoohiAD who regretfully stayed only for two months.

Again, Desperate Times
Posted by RoohiAD Dec 22, 1999 12:31 am
GET LOST GENERAL MUTTERRAF

Your economic package was a total disappointment, and so was you attempted accountability. It is time for military to leave honourably restoring Nawaz Sharif`s government. Read the writing on the wall, general Mutterraf your kins will not find your remains if you dealy your departure. Leave at once.

Roohi A Ditta

#222 Posted by hamidm2,

hamidm2, the sequence is as follows:

1)mootarraf begs saudia to ask Nawaz not to boycott and in return he will allow Shahbaz and Kulsoom to return.

2)Saudi regrets they cannot retain Nawaz anymore and he will have to return if he wants.

3)Compromise is reached that all of Nawaz family will return but Nawaz will not contest elections.

I believe Nawaz agreed in the best interest of the country. Godspeed to him. It is better that there is no further chaos, and I'm sure he took that into account.

let the games begin .... tahmed, eat your heart out!

ISLAMABAD: Former premier Nawaz Sharif has secured an agreement with Saudi Arabia to let him return to Pakistan, PML President Chaudhry Shujaat said on Thursday. “There is some deal� with Saudi authorities for Nawaz to come back, said Shujaat. He told Dawn News that Nawaz would be back in Pakistan before the general elections despite President Musharraf’s resistance. “We are ready to face him and he has to face the people,� Shujaat told Dawn News. ap

Re: # 220

tahmed,

........ i just checked with the pakistani people to see if they were upset at hamidm's support for president musharraf ........ they said "hamidm, who?"

....... look mian, who am i to oppose mushy when everyone including benazir, nawaz sharif, maulana fazloo, arif pan-wala and moodah kasai say he is okay ...... i don't want to be be the laughing stock of the world by standing with fools like imran khan and the droopy eyed chief justice ........

president musharraf zindabad!
brett favre zindabad!

Mr. Madani: Like you, Hamidm also thinks Musharraf is a "rising sun" (at least for next few years).

And I ask this of you: "Since when is it right for a man to do salaam to the "chartha sooraj"? Musharraf may be around another few years (or he may not). But one day, sure as the sun sets in the west, he too will be gone. And you and Hamidm and everyone else who has abandoned the Pakistani people and all those brave Pakistanis fighting for freedom from military rule can then sing this for the rest of your lives:

Jafar az Bengal
Sadiq az Deccan
Nang-e Adam
Nang-e Deen
Nang-e Watan!!

Re: # 217 I was wonder if good "bengal type" cat is possible to be brought, they are beautiful cats and hard to get, not mixed race breed real bengal cat with good tiger strips. Also from Hyderbad has very good figher Khaboors nile with ring in eyes. I will make inquiry as they should be Authentic. sorry just came in mind. probaly there must be restriction. forget it.

Ahmedmadani sahib,

(China is only real friend )

Indeed, sir. And that's why you should request the Lal Masjid Party guys to refrain from from kidnapping Chinese masseuses in future.

Regards

Re: # 215 I will be more than happy to any foreign living indian. Generally my mental depression sets in cold times by warm air i feel better and august is nice warm weather. We can go to beach at eat at Lakhani's Mcdonalds , good icecream. I rarely go out but talk elavates my mind.I may suggest few newcopy of books and will be paid fully.Thanks visit me.

Re: # 214 Mr. T mr. H is right I also support president and president Elect mr. M for pakistan is more important than democracy. Now pakistan real friend is china ( not Elite america who treats us has as just paid servants , or india with good intention saying or stabbing or saudi useing as battle field). Not he is not best it just like ugly woman has no choice but marry some brute to have protecton. Only he is going to deliver kashmir peacefully or if needed by war and he is not coward or just talk at kargil time he had almost fired those rockets carrying glorious warriers who have plundered india many times.
Now please note that pakistan's only REAL friend China commusist Chief and president want all GENERAL at top for STABILITY.ALL china govt is suppoting is general they have no good opinion about BB . So plaese stop talking against elected president. He will be there for totally for next 10 years. Then his health will not be as he has danger time 2017 astrologically. Now no point in disputing rising sun. If blind does not feel sun is is not suns fault , all dushmans of general ka muh kala. Pakistan owns gratitude. He has taken care of terrorist B.Stan defunct BLA. Do you BB can order such things. Any way people should accept general for next 10 years. may be this is not best news but better accept. China is only real friend and they favor Musharaff as best friend of pakistani people.

#213 Posted by ahmedmadani:

Dear ahmedmadani,
I was planning to go to Karachi this December for a wedding. Something came up and I cannot make it. But in August 2009, Inshallah ... Bhaja govindam, I will visit Pakistan .... only if I can meet you in person. Is that even possible?

Actually, I wanted to say .... "Is that even possible, Garfield?" ... but I am an agnostic and too much under your influence. So, can we meet in August 2009?

GT: Obviously someone switched drinks on Urstruly and Hamidm: Hamidm is now an Islamist, running around yelling "Zindabad" for Khalifa Musharraf. Urstruly on the other hand is calling for inner party democracy in Pakistani political parties!!

Re: # 211 Even great Ghalib was alcohol addict. He himself said " agar tuze wali samzate the agar...." People would have called sait if was not alcol addict.

#210 Posted by Urstruly"

Urstruly sahib,

I simply do not believe that you said this:
"NS has been tested twice. He is incompetent and a petty tyrant. Being qa lot better than Bezamir still does not qualify him. He must have party elections which he must face like a man and let a new leadership emerge. Anything less than that is unacceptable."
You have become a liberaloon. I mean what about a set of "wise people" ruling the Islamic republic? I do not believe this! Lahoreviaquwait you must have had that drink with hamidm. How could you?

#210 Posted by Urstruly on November 22, 2007 4:36:38 pm


Anything less than that is unacceptable.


Unacceptable to the people of pureland...or the people of flint, michigan..like you..?

NS has been tested twice. He is incompetent and a petty tyrant. Being qa lot better than Bezamir still does not qualify him. He must have party elections which he must face like a man and let a new leadership emerge. Anything less than that is unacceptable.

I was barred from posting at Chowk for the past two days for calling hamidm a sharabi chutiya. I apologize to hamidm, chowk, and all those whose sensibilities were hurt due to my indiscretion.

#205 hamidm: This turkey that you have in the pot - is this the one in #206 (arjun8 got it right this time!!)?

Brett Favre Zindabad!!

#179 Posted by bulleya on November 22, 2007 7:38:05 am


if it still doesn't, then i think you are simply trying to find some issue on which to prove me wrong..


find issues on which you are wrong based on your own posts?

you've got to be kidding me...

HAHAHA...

Re: # 201

zeemax,

... i have a turkey in the oven mummified in five layers of cheese cloth (one up on martha stewart) that has to be basted every fifteen minutes, but this was too good to pass up ......

.... why don't you take that folded newspaper from airman romair and smack him with it and then you can spread it on the floor to make sure he pees on it next time ...... this puppy needs some serious training which he didn't get at the korangi mistry school ........

........ anyway, a turkey in the oven, a glass of pinot noir in my hand and a football game on tv - life doesn't get any better even if you are not part of the american elite ....... who gives a hoot about what those damn raghead terrorists do down there .........masadi, eat your heart out!


happy thanksgiving !

president musharraf zindabad!
balach marri murdabad!
sheikh rashid zindabad!
nawaz sharif, avey e avey!
general kiani zindabad!
qazi hussain murdabad!
maulana fazloo zindabad! (why? i think the man is a closet kanjar)
benazir zindabad!
altaph bhai zindabad!
mullah fazlullah murdabad!

zeemax: you ignored my wise counsel. :-(

#202 bubba: That is not what I wrote. Please try to say what you want to say in a legible manner.

Re: # 197 Posted by tahmed32 on November 22, 2007 10:02:20 am

[the only credible means to shake loose the Musharraf dictatorship] is with another dictatorship of General Kiani, who is needed to clean up the infamous ISI and the institutional fundamentalism installed since ZAB days.

Do I hear General Kiani zindabad? Of course only from hamid mian.

Okay, never mind. I won't put a respected chowkie painted in a corner all by himself.

Just never wave a folded newspaper in my face again.

Cheers!

Add-on ... #199

... sorry I didn't read the rest of your post before replying ... so I guess you want to weasel out on a compromise by saying you actually support NS in some manner.

That's fine, but do answer what the Justice Sajjad case was about so that we can establish once and for all your grasp of facts.

Thanks.

#198 Posted by bulleya,

There was no change of statements. I think I explained my use of the term 'storming in #188 reproduced below:

Of-course it was stormed. All I'm saying is that it was 'hular baazi' and not a plan by NS. I said NS's explanation is most plausible because the course of events supports this explanation, and not because NS said that.

Now let's have the reply to #196 please.

What was the case Justice Sajjad was hearing against NS? You said it was 'corruption'. Was it?

Just a test of how much you know facts.

zeemax #147: "There was no 'Storming of SC'."
zeemax #188: "Of-course it was stormed."

..funny how people change statements when solid facts are provided to them......in less than an hour, the SC has gone from not being stormed to "of-course being stormed"...

as i said, i really don't like doing this to anyone on this site (other than to hamidm mian).....and i only do it to him, because i miss the days when he was the site clown and dread the day he fell in love with bush to the point of seeing no fault in him (much like you are with ns), and started trying to have intelligent conversation.....

...so pls quit while you are still behind......ns may still be the best choice out of the lot.....pti and imran khan - the group i have supported since day one - may actually have an alliance with pml(n), in which case i will support it also......also, nearly all the feudal and pirs of pml(n) have left it and have joined pml(q), thereby making pml(n) an urban party, which is what i support also......and shahbaz sharif is one hell of an administrator......now there is a guy i would support as pm.......and because while ns has corruption cases against him, unlike bb, they have yet to be proven in court........

so in this current group of useless bufoons, my support is for the pml(n) + pti + anp alliance......and i would support shahbaz for prime minister, with imran as president.......i still think urban businessmen are far better than army, maulvis and feudals.......

hoping for too much with the above, perhaps........but all said and done, let's call a spade a spade, and not try to hide the faults of nawaz........

zeemax: I think romair is quite correct in saying that the SC was stormed during NS time, by NS men. Denying obvious facts simply blinds you to reality. While NS may be part of the solution (along with BB) in the sense of providing the only credible means to shake loose the Musharraf dictatorship, that does not mean NS or BB are perfect and therefore the solution for the post-Musharraf period as well.

#195 Posted by bulleya,

Okay, let's take it one by one:

...and ns had the chief justice removed, when the later was hearing corruption cases against him .....plain and simple...

What was the case Justice Sajjad was hearing? Was it a corruption case or a contempt of court case over a press statement by NS?

We'll continue after your reply.

zeemax #: i don't enjoy doing this to anyone on this site (other than to hamidm mian), but there is a limit to having a love affair with ns....please take a look at what you are saying:

"Don't believe what Najam Sethi says....As for Sajjad Shah, same as above...."

...so we should not look at what sethi and sajjad are saying about what happened to them.....who else would know what happened to them, any better.....ns stormed sethi's house, when he highlighted sharif's corruption on bbc, and ns had the chief justice removed, when the later was hearing corruption cases against him .....plain and simple...

"NS's explanation is most plausible because the course of events supports this explanation,..."

the guy who led the storming, khwaja saad; do talk to him....there is a video of the court being stormed!.......and the people storming it, where prosecuted by the supreme court and punished....the course of events was that nawaz sharif's trial was delayed, during which time he got rid of the chief justice.......until musharraf got rid of him......

the corruption cases i mentioned have been reopened.....please try to follow the events......the guy had his own personal judge, for heaven's sake.....i am not saying it, his own mpa, ayaz amir is........and there is a recorded conversation of the judge supporting this......

p.s........i am still waiting for you to identify the following:

1. when was najam sethi the national security advisor, and does such a position even exist in pakistan
2. where in the text of sethi's speech did he say that pakistan is a, "failed state"....he had made the exact same speech in national defence college in pakistan
3. is it a crime for a pakistani to go to india and say that pakistan is a failed state?...please quote the law under which it is a crime....

#192 Posted by nasah,

Did you hear his quote from the Adiala Jail when asked how he was being treated?

He said "They're treating me fine just as they're supposed to ... just as the other prisoners".

Aitezaz is a rare breed of men.

#168 Posted by HP

We saw Nawaz standing up to the army in 1999 and I feel that the next time the army may have to kill the PM in the PM house to get the power again. They may have to kill the Pakistani intelligentsia in the stadiums to maintain the forcible acquisition of power.

Well said HP. I see you're out of your peon of the west (moniker courtesy masadi) mode, or getting there fast.

RELEASE AITZAZ AHSAN
RELEASE AITZAZ AHSAN

RELEASE AITZAZ AHSAN
RELEASE AITZAZ AHSAN

Re: # 159 Posted by hamidm2 on November 21, 2007 12:28:44 pm

[....... it is nice to know that zeemax agrees with me, arjun and tahmed that you are the ultimate idiot ........]

except for tahmed, you are, once again, on the wrong side of the chowk. Although, for the most part, I do like zeemax's posts when he remains authentic.

#187 Posted by bulleya,

LoL:

.. murder case against ss ordering the police to kill five men. The men were gunned down in Lahore in 1998"

Is that about corruption?

It's about extra-judicial killing; and Shahbaz Sharif came back to face the court over charges but musharraf deported him back despite a high-court judgement and despite outstanding arrest warrants against him.

.. cases related to Hudebia paper Mills, Itefaq Foundry and Riawind real estate

I see you've had to work hard googling. Hudaybia Paper Mills and Ittefaq Foundary were handed over (alongwith many other assets) by NS after the coup in 1999 as part of his settlement with musharraf. This case is about 'valuation' of the mills, and not about any corruption.

The Raiwind case is simply an enquiry into the source of funds and not a corruption charge. NS too came back to face both the above on Sept 10 and you know what happened.

Give up bulleya. You've just proven yourself to be a simpleton who knows nothing.

Sorry, but it's the truth.

Justice Qayyum and Nawas Sharif - Nawaz's special judge:
--------------------------------------------------------

Ayaz amir is one of the loyal members of pml(n) i.e. nawaz sharif's party...he is also a well know journalist.......one of the small % of guys who did not dump nawaz sharif to join pml (q).....following is what he wrote about nawaz sharif and a justice who was on nawaz sharif's team......this justice had his conversation recorded, when he was talking about nawaz sharif's cases:

"WHAT the publication of the Hamoodur Rahman Report did for the army, the Justice Qayyum tapes as revealed by the Sunday Times have done for the higher judiciary......this is the value of the Qayyum tapes. The light they cast throws in sharp relief the judiciary's feet of clay.

....His Lordship Justice Malik Qayyum addressing Khalid Anwer, Nawaz Sharif's then lord chancellor, as "sir" and declaring himself to be his servant (khadim).

...Need we be surprised by the audacity of the interference and the readiness of Justice Qayyum to oblige his interlocutors?

.....Civilian rulers have treated the judiciary no better, each one of them seeking pliant judges. Judges too have demeaned themselves by seeking small favours.

With regard to Justice Qayyum, moreover, these subtle considerations in any event do not apply. In the sacred precincts of the Lahore High Court he has enjoyed a special standing because of his identification with the personal problems of the Sharif dynasty. Anything affecting the family's interests has come to him for adjudication, almost as if he alone possessed the requisite delicacy to handle these matters. The division of the family's assets between its contending factions, cases involving the family's huge bank loans, and even the banking loans of Nawaz Sharif's principal errand boy, Saifur Rehman, were all attracted, as if by a powerful magnet, to Justice Qayyum's court and no other.

This no doubt was the preferred style of the Sharifs, not only fashioning a personalized administration, with loyalists at key positions, but also arranging for a personalized form of justice. When their name was involved in the cooperatives' scandal of 1991, the Supreme Court judge selected to hold a judicial inquiry into the affair was Justice Lone who exonerated the Sharifs of any wrongdoing. Later, during Nawaz Sharif's second stint as prime minister, Lone became a PML senator.

Justice Qayyum (whose brother, incidentally, was a PML MNA) is a throwback to those interesting times. Small wonder if it was he who was chosen to be Benazir Bhutto's and Asif Zardari's principal nemesis. All the important cases against them were heard by him. To Justice Qayyum also belongs the triumph of reducing Benazir Bhutto to tears in open court, so zealous was he in the pursuit of justice. All this forms the backdrop to the tapes revealed by the Sunday Times.

Justice Qayyum had been hand-picked to hear the cases against Benazir Bhutto because, as the contents of the tapes make clear, he was considered a loyalist who could be counted upon to do what was expected of him. And yet Nawaz Sharif not only kept the pressure on Justice Qayyum through Khalid Anwer and Saifur Rehman. He also ordered all of Justice Qayyum's telephones to be bugged, probably just to make sure that his zeal did not flag.


http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/20010209.htm

is this the same Qayyum who is now the attorney general of pakistan on musharraf's team, hounding nawaz sharif.....if so, what a turn around....

#185 Posted by bulleya,

Yaar bulleya, do you really believe what everyone says? Or you read in the newspapers? I mean ... you should have been above that. Did you believe there were WMDs in Iraq when everyone was saying there were? I didn't. Not for a single moment. Because I believe none of what I hear and only half of what I see.

You say:

....the fact is that the supreme court of pakistan was physically stormed by the supporters of nawaz sharif, in an organized fashion.....do you agree or disagree.....

Of-course it was stormed. All I'm saying is that it was 'hular baazi' and not a plan by NS. I said NS's explanation is most plausible because the course of events supports this explanation, and not because NS said that.

zeemax #: "I notice you haven't come up with any corruption cases against NS.....merely organised disinformation and character assassination."

....there is a long list of cases against nawaz sharif and shahbaz sharif.....here are two:

- murder case against ss ordering the police to kill five men. The men were gunned down in Lahore in 1998"

- cases related to Hudebia paper Mills, Itefaq Foundry and Riawind real estate

.......these cases are still officially open.......which is why i stated, "not to mention the fact that nawaz has a long list of corruption cases against him...."

#180/181 Posted by bulleya

Who kidnapped Najam Sethi: / Who removed Sajjad Shah

Don't believe what Najam Sethi says. He's an interested party. Look at the the events. Look at why ISI is saying they intervened as you said. Look at why musharraf says he got him released. Look at the correlations between all the above. MI had picked him up and MI had released him.

As for Sajjad Shah, same as above. Except that perhaps you're unaware of Leghari's role in the whole affair. It was a classic palace intrigue worthy of a case study at Harvard.

zeemax #: "The incident was no more than 'Hullar Baazi' over entry passes. This is Nawaz Sharif's own explanation, and it is the most plausible."

hmm.....so nawaz's own explanation is plausible...there is a video of the court being stormed......an actual video....the case was heard, and people were punished.....you can call it hullar baazi or whatever else....the fact is that the supreme court of pakistan was physically stormed by the supporters of nawaz sharif, in an organized fashion.....do you agree or disagree.....


"You're saying that NS appearing before the same judge whom you accuse NS of removing is immaterial...."

yes, this is immaterial.......if i go before a judge, does that give me the right to storm his court and remove him, afterwards?....if that is the case, then anyone can appear before the judge and get rid of him, if he discovers he was to rule against him......

did ns get rid of sajjad shah or not?......simple question with a simple answer.......yes he did...... read sajjad's own interview.......

"Sethi was the National Security adviser during one of the interim governments. I don't remember whether"

...which govt. was it? please highlight.......i know he was an advisor in leghari's govt. on political affairs.....does pakistan even have the post of national security advisor?...i don't think it does, but i am not sure......but if it does, do highlight when sethi held it.......and even if he did, so what.....he can still go to india and make speeches.....the indian general who planned siachen, comes to pakistan.......should india arrest him?

"Thereafter, MI picked him up. It had nothing to do with NS"

.....this is getting hilarious........you are truly clinging to straws.... read sethi's own comments .......he, himself, states that ns had him picked up, through punjab police and IB (not MI)......

#182 Posted by bulleya,

Yes, it was a post which was not before Sethi or since. But this was indeed the post he occupied. It was created during one of the interim governments. Do ask Najam Sethi or Jugnu or Salman Taseer. They will confirm it.

#178 Posted by bulleya,

I don't know what Khwaja Saad Rafique says. My point was that Ch. Shujaat, the PM before Shaukat Aziz and an arch enemy of NS now, was the federal interior minister at the time of the incident. Are you saying he was complicit?

The incident was no more than 'Hullar Baazi' over entry passes. This is Nawaz Sharif's own explanation, and it is the most plausible.

...whether he appeared or not, is immaterial.....

This is really crazy. You're saying that NS appearing before the same judge whom you accuse NS of removing is immaterial.

Sethi was the National Security adviser during one of the interim governments. I don't remember whether it was Moin Qureshi's or Laghari's. And the charge on him was exactly what I said. He had gone to India in a seminar and had spoken at length trying to prove Pakistan to be a failed state. Thereafter, MI picked him up. It had nothing to do with NS.

I notice you haven't come up with any corruption cases against NS. Given up eh?

All that talk about NS corruption is merely organised disinformation and character assassination. If you consider NS and his brother handed out billions of dollars of contracts on the motorways and the airports plus rebuilding of Lahore, and there's not even a single charge in courts despite musharraf's 8 years of desperate attempts?

Bhai, NS is the only hope for Pakistan, and I will tell you why. This nation needs a national consensus desperately, and NS has obtained that consensus not once but twice during his short and interrupted tenures. One was the NFC award (the federal revenue sharing agreement) which had not been achieved since ZAB, and the other was the 1992 Water accord.

If NS had not been removed in this manner, Kala Bagh Dam would be complete by now.

Besides, his economic liberalization blueprint launched with the Protection of Economic Reforms act - 1992 is still being followed by musharraf throughout his regime.

Pakistan is a very difficult country to govern. One must look at the end results achieved by any ruler rather than on personal limitations and petty idiosyncrasies of the same.

Was Sethi the National Security Advisor:
----------------------------------------

I know Sethi was Sethi, was adviser on Political Affairs and Accountability to the Caretaker Prime Minister......but was he the National Security Advisor, as highlighted by Zeemax......

I didn't even know that Pakistan had the post of national secuirty advisor........there is a national security council, but is their a national security advisor......if anyone has any info on it, please highlight......

Who removed Sajjad Shah - interview:
------------------------------------

Once again, following is fromm Sajjad Shah's own mouth.....he was the cj who was removed by NS......one should note that he was to listen to more than simply contempt of court against ns.......there were corruption cases also......

"Pakistan Today: When you were the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and it came under attack by the Muslim League, there were at least three or four references against Nawaz Sharif pending in your court. Do you have any comments about their credibility?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: Yes, my anxiety at that time was, that the complaints contained allegations of corruption, and the cases should be looked into according to the law. Nawaz Sharif thought, because he was Prime Minister, the cases should not proceed against him. And, you see, the anxiety was that all should be treated equally under the law. He did not want those cases to be heard. That is because he did not believe in the rule of law. If there is no rule of law, then the system would collapse. This is what has happened in the country. there is no rule of law, no respect for it.

Pakistan Today: Your removal was illegitimate, do you think they should offer you your position back?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: It is too late. Unless they amend the constitution. And the constitution should not be amended for one person. I want my country to be saved. Pakistan is a great country. I want the country to survive. For that I am prepared to offer my services in any capacity because I want the system to be saved. "

http://www.paktoday.com/shah.htm

Who kidnapped Najam Sethi:
--------------------------

najam sethi wrote his personal accout of how nawaz sharif had him picked up, in his newspaper......i remember reading it.......i will see if i can find it.....following is an article by one of his friends, explaining it, where he quotes an email from sethi.......

"My case was quite bizarre. An armed posse of the Punjab Police and the IB [Intelligence Bureau] smashed its way into my bedroom at 2:30 am on May 8th, 1999, beat up my wife and me, gagged me, blindfolded me, handcuffed me and dragged me away. I was in their custody for many hours.

Then I was handed over to the ISI. The ISI kept me in a safe house first in Lahore and then in Islamabad . It investigated everything, found that the treason charges against me were trumped up politically by the Prime Minister (PM) and then confidentially told me that it was under pressure from the PM to court martial me. But it said that Gen Mush [sic] was against the idea of any military involvement in my case and was telling the PM that the civilians should handle it.

In due course, the ISI actually protected me from the IB which wanted to take me away for a few days and "fix" me at the behest of the PM and Saif ur-Rehman.......It was the ISI's clean chit of health that persuaded the Supreme Court (SC) to put pressure on the civilian government to release me. But within a day of releasing me, the government lodged a case of treason in a civil court against me and tried to arrest me again; but Justice Mamoon Qazi of the SC stepped in and judged that I could not be arrested in any case without the government's first showing the evidence against me to the SC. When I was released, I told the BBC in an interview that the ISI was largely responsible for my well-being.

Incidentally, the so-called "anti-Pakistan" speech that I was supposed to have made in India, which was the basis of the charge against me, was the same speech that I had made at the National Defence College in Islamabad earlier on the basis of which I had duly received a formal letter from the NDC commending me for having obtained the "highest marks ever" from the NDC for a presentation before the college.

The real reason why I was arrested by Nawaz Sharif had to do with a BBC documentary in which I had taken part, exposing the corruption of the PM. I was interviewed by the BBC in Pakistan two days before I left for India . The IB found out and informed the PM. Saif ur-Rehman called me and asked what I had told the BBC. I told him: "everything." "Negative or positive?" he asked. "Is there anything positive in your regime?" I replied. "We will get you," he warned.

That was that. They used the India thing to try and silence and discredit me so that my BBC testimony would be rejected by the people. Then they took the BBC to court in London for potential libel and threatened to close down its operations in Pakistan if the film was shown to Pakistani audiences. Then a “settlement� took place between the two parties--the BBC film was subsequently shown in the UK but never in South Asia . Before showing the film in the UK, the BBC asked me whether I wanted to censor or edit my statements against the PM in the film in view of what had happened. I said “no.� Everything I said was on the record and should be shown.

When Saif ur-Rehman was arrested in 1999 after the coup, he got his wife to phone me and ask for my "forgiveness." Later, Shahbaz Sharif called from exile and claimed he had never been a party to my ordeal and apologised on behalf of the Sharif family. Nawaz Sharif's son Hussain met me in London two years [later] and also apologised. Other members of that government have also apologised. But Nawaz is still silent.

http://hnn.us/articles/3968.html

hamidm mian #: "first he says that he was in the airforce, now he turns around and tells us that one of his 'course mates' with the initials 'nh' is going to take over the army ..... i am confused - we need to do some research on this guy"

hmm....the three forces train together now......have been doing so for 25 years or more........cadets are exchanged between the three training institutes.......not sure if this is still going on.......but during our days, there were plans of making one large joint academy, so as a precursor, they combined all the training for the first two years......

hope that clarifies.....if it still doesn't, then i think you are simply trying to find some issue on which to prove me wrong......you will have to try much harder than this, i am afraid.......

zeemax #: "In fact, the disturbance was over supporters with passes.....They tried to force their way in. There was no 'Storming of SC'...."

this is totally untrue......the mob that stormed the supreme court was led by nawaz sharif's mna from lahore.....his name is khwaja saad rafiq.......i met him, myself, with a few people, and he told us the story......he lives in lcchs lahore....pls ask him, if you can get in touch with him.....

he said they had gathered there to protest......however, things got out of control, and they ended up storming the supreme court......i am not sure where you heard the story about passes.....

"And he was also the only sitting Prime Minister EVER to appear before a judge in person when summoned..."

this has nothing to do with the issue....he had the cj removed......sajjad shah was removed, through a breakup of the supreme court by ns......this is a fact.....whether he appeared or not, is immaterial.....if we use this logic, then musharraf actually follwed a cj ruling against him.....

"No one has ever been jailed for contempt."

i said removed, not jailed......ns would have been removed from power; at worst......however, his party would have still been in power, and they could have elected a new pm.....democracy would have prospered.....

basically, ns did the same thing musharraf did.......removed the cj when he was to rule against him........and ns went after the press, when it criticised him.......

"No. It was the Military intelligence which picked him up.."

pls read sethi's own account of the incidence.....he says everything was done by ns......there is no law that says a person cannot go to india and say pakistan is a failed state.......is there? ......although i don't remember seeing this word in his speech.....and was he the national security advisor in leghari's govt?

let's not get carried away.......lets stick to facts.....ns is no angel......the guy has done much of what musharraf has done.......both need to be out......as should bb....

Benazir gives green light to PPP workers to Participate in Elections without a constitution. There's no end to kanjarpana.

In the meantime:

Geo TV website under another DDoS attack:

KARACHI: Geo TV website came under DDoS attack for the second time at around 8pm on Wednesday, after which a very significant source of information is temporarily disconnected.

These kanjars have code coolies too !

majumdar #175 If these wargames were timed without thought to the situation across the border, then as an Indian you should be very worried about what they were thinking.

On your question on "casus beli", I think I already described that earlier (i.e. western fears of Pakistan nuclear bombs falling into al qaeda hands in case of an all out civil war in Pakistan).

On your question on how the current trouble neutralizes nukes - I didnt say it "neutralizes" them. I am saying that under one possible scenario (i.e. all out civil war where the Pakistan Army itself is divided into pro- and anti-Musharraf groups), these bombs could fall into al qaeda hands. Of course, events would have to take a particular course for this "nightmare scenario" to arise - i.e. Musharraf continuing his disastrous course, the opposition taking more and more to the streets, soldiers refusing to kill any more demonstrators.

Of course one hopes that Musharraf will change from being "oversmart and overambitious" to just plain smart and realize his game is up. Or that the opposition is able to keep the demonstrations peaceful even as Musharraf's police continue to bloody their heads every time there is a demonstration. But if that doesnt happen, then this nightmare scenario becomes a possibility.

Tahmed sahib,

(But please note that the timing of wargames is also considered significant)

Sadly I am not expert on military affairs having failed to graduate beyond Commando Comics but really we need to find out whether the current war games were a part of a long drawn scheudle of exercises or a sudden afterthought. Also I understand that neighbouring countries are informed well in advance.

(if they are undertaken during troubled times, then they are often seen as an indication of preparations for war. )

If that is the case what would be the casus belli? And how does the current trouble neutralise the Paki nukes?

Re: 172 I think it is very far fetched, I think the Pakis are getting too pessimistic. I am not understating the seriousness of the whole situation- without any doubt it is the worst since 1971, but pakistan is nowhere near a meltdown stage.

Regards

majumdar #173 Yes, you mentioned that earlier. But please note that the timing of wargames is also considered significant - if they are undertaken during troubled times, then they are often seen as an indication of preparations for war.

I am not saying that the scenario indicated in #172 is certain by any means. But it could happen if Musharraf continues in his disastrous course of insisting on absolute power and the popular opposition to Musharraf refuses to accede to his demands - which could lead to all out civil war in Pakistan. In which case NATO forces to the west may very well team up with Indian forces to the east in order to prevent nuclear weapons falling into Al Qaeda hands.

Tahmed sahib,

(and the Indian military has used this time to play "wargames" across the border).

How many times do I have to tell you this- Wargames are nothing but keep fit exercises, particularly relevant in India since our army does not get any by way of storming courts and climbing the gates of PM house.

Regards

HP #169 There is no doubt that there could be consequences of the current turmoil in Pakistan that neither the "oversmart" dictator nor anyone struggling for democracy could have foreseen. After all, history teaches us that civil wars and strife can lead to unexpected consequences. Thus: No doubt that fears of Pakistan's nuclear weapons falling into Al Qaeda hands (who could then use them to destroy entire cities, since destruction is all they are capable of) is a key western concern today, and it would be surprising if counter-measures are not being considered. Our friends in India would no doubt be jumping at the opportunity to join in any such action (and the Indian military has used this time to play "wargames" across the border).

So, if Jinnah made Pakistan, Musharraf and his desire for power may very well destroy Pakistan (i.e. nuclear weapons taken away, Pakistan reduced militarily with India then becoming the unchallenged military power in the region).

This sounds far-fetched, I know. But it is a very real possibility.

#160 Posted by tahmed32,

Romair is an amiable enough person who does not fly of the handle at the drop of a hat

Yeah tell me about it. After his misinformed rant based solely on organized character assassination of NS, he teaches me the definition of an idiot !!!

It may not be flying off the handle, but it is certainly akin to shoving up a broom handle and pretending to be a peacock (mor) !!!

Re: # 169 HP
Gosh! you sound real worried. Being a Jeay sindh activist, shouldn't you be drooling at the prospect of the break up of Pakistan?

Asadi,Tahmed and other please read this report and especially see the maps that go with that.

http://www.senliscouncil.net/modules/publications/Afghanistan_on_the_br ink/documents/Afghanistan_on_the_brink

See the maps on page 7 and 25
The NATO plus solution is in the works and the report recommends:
Recommendation 1: “NATO Plus�: Double the NATO forces in the area, double the ground troops; Caveat-free, MOVE IN TO PAKISTAN� and this is the real game in which the stupid Generals are willing partners.

However, what's most intriguing is the Council's support for a very hawkish policy of the kind being pushed by the bipartisan politicians in the US Houses of Congress. The proposal is simple: given that there is no intention of withdrawing, a huge boost in troop commitment has to be demanded of all NATO members, and the war has to be expanded into Pakistan. The Taliban is known to operate across borders, and the Pakistani army is reluctant to engage in battle with them for a variety of reasons. Clearly, part of the US pressure on Musharraf is aimed at his inability to be a reliable puppet, while Benazir Bhutto's rhetoric about 'extremists' is clearly intended to capture that vital Washington constituency. There have already been cross-border attacks, but would Bhutto or any future Pakistani government permit the US to operate extensively in Pakistan? Would such actions hinder or boost the popular movement resisting Musharraf's dictatorship? The report doesn't ponder on such questions, or the obvious answers.

Perhaps most importantly, the report states that 'foreign fighters' from across what Brzezinski calls the "global Balkans" including Pakistan, Uzbekistan and Xinjiang, are acting as force-multipliers for the Taliban insurgency. How much of this is real information and how much is 'intelligence' obtained through torture, or straightforward propaganda? Unlike other parts of the report, which comprises some independent research, much of this appears to be distilled from think-tanks and Western newspapers. At any rate, though the report strikes a technocratic note, the context makes clear that the "Nato+" solution would constitute an aggressive strike to bring south Asia under US control. When both Obama and Clinton make noises about potential aggression in Pakistan, we have to take it as a warning sign. This war may send the whole region up in flames.

#97 Posted by tahmed32
"On the bigger issue, I of course fully agree. The military in Pakistan has to be put in its place - it's job is to serve the Pakistani people, not rule over them. The central question is How?"

There can be many answers to that but sure most of them require strong will on the part of the Pakistani middleclass and others in the urban centers to understand that the army rule is not in Pakistan’s interest.

The first thing is for the politicians to take a stand and the politicians will only take that stand when they know that the people are steadfastly against the army rule.

Just look at Benazir. She almost signed a blank check but when she got to Pakistan the first thing she learned was that her own party workers will not support her association with the army. What no one reported from her Karachi procession that was bombed by the intelligence that most of the slogans during the procession were anti Musharaf and anti America. She quickly began to back away from her support to Musharaf. She is not in a position now to make a deal with the army because the public pressure has forced her to take a stand. She may not like it but she has to listen to her party workers. We can say that both BB and Nawaz at some point of time will make the deal with the army and the US but so far the public pressure has prevented them to make that deal. This certainly provides a ray of hope.

What I gather from Pakistan is that whole society at large is disgusted with the army shenanigans. Army can still keep the power because it has the guns. But the public pressure eventually will force the army to back off. We have seen the Junta rules in South America, they are all pretty much history now. Even the worst of the worst junta rule in Chile ended when people did not let up.

No doubt things are complicated in Pakistan. With the WOT, the US interests in the area and the oil politics in the region, things are not going to be easy but often a way is found in some very complicated situations. I think if Pakistanis are able to remove the current CAOS Musharaf, it is highly likely that next COAS will have to repeat the Chile of 1973 to get to the power. We saw Nawaz standing up to the army in 1999 and I feel that the next time the army may have to kill the PM in the PM house to get the power again. They may have to kill the Pakistani intelligentsia in the stadiums to maintain the forcible acquisition of power.

bulleya#143
Don't be fooled by appearance.
Imran Khan is alternative to whatever first dispensation is for Army and America on paper. (I cannot speak on behalf of Allah). Unfortunately he is too different to accomodate within current or any political dispensation. And he has a big baggage of Sita Whites and their children. At best he can make happy a few people, but alienate a lot in the process. He is probably worse than BB in this regard. Moreover he has a Huqqa Party (party of five people) and apart from nuisance value to different parties or group, I am not much optimistic about him. Moreover apart from playing cricket (which he does no more) and womanizing (which is concealed), he has no brains but rhetorics (that is precisely the reason for him being alternative ).
Personally I think he might have a shot in 1999 when he was propped up by a certain group of PSEUDOISLAMIC PSEUDOREVOLUTANARIES in the Army as a face to fulfill their agenda.

Naqshbandi:
Does that mean we are going to witness another killing of Tajiks, Uzbuks. Another closing of education on women. And last but not least balding for wearing shorts in football match by Pakistani team.
It looks like People have short memory span and long avenging span.
I don't think, Army rule or not, Pakistanis will accept to go back to stone age (even without American bombing).
A lot of Pakistanis have family abroad and they are much aware of development and its advantage.

hamidm: You are just jealous of Romair because he is so well connected and so knowledgeable about military matters.

Re: # 162

Come to think of it I almost invited you out for drink bcos you were after gopinath's grandson!!!! I guess it will have to be Salim only.

giani

Re: # 162

Come to think of it I almost invited you out for drink bcos you were after gopinath's grandson!!!! I guess it will have to be Salim only.

giani

Re: # 160

tahmed,

....... i resent romair because he makes all us pakis look bad in front of these horrible hindoo hyenas (not that most of us are not capable of doing it ourselves) ....... and then he confuses the shite out of me ... first he says that he was in the airforce, now he turns around and tells us that one of his 'course mates' with the initials 'nh' is going to take over the army ..... i am confused - we need to do some research on this guy .......... you know anybody in the ms branch?

Re: # 156

naqshbandi,

... i think that will be just fine - when mahmud gahzni II marches comes through rawalpindi on his way to conquer hindustan, i will join him like my grandpa gopinath joined his grandpappy ......... the only people who should worry are the horrible hindoos and virgin sheep ......

hamidm #159 You need to focus on the positives.

Romair is an amiable enough person who does not fly of the handle at the drop of a hat (these are phrases I learnt in school which I need to use sometimes even if as mixed metaphors).

Also, even though he is a military boy, Romair has not sacked even one judge let alone a Chief Justice.

absolute truths

romair mian,

....... it is nice to know that zeemax agrees with me, arjun and tahmed that you are the ultimate idiot ........ doesn't it scare you that such a diverse group of people agrees on this? ...... i guess there are some universal truths that everyone recognizes ........

#129 Posted by bulleya on November 21, 2007 6:11:18 am


....musharraf has many things in common with hosni.


not to mention that they're dictators of countries whose existence is based on denial.

#153 Posted by mohar11 on November 21, 2007 10:53:44 am

bombing short dark rice eating bingos is kosher..

so there..

The Taliban has a permanent presence in 54% of Afghanistan and the country is in serious danger of falling into the group's hands...

excellent article...The war IS being lost...

Read this today from the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,,2214813,00.html

A fghanistan 'falling into Taliban hands'


Richard Norton-Taylor
Wednesday November 21, 2007
Guardian Unlimited

Taliban fighter
A Taliban fighter

The Taliban has a permanent presence in 54% of Afghanistan and the country is in serious danger of falling into the group's hands, according to a report by an independent thinktank with long experience in the area.

Despite the presence of tens of thousands of Nato-led troops and billions of dollars in aid, the insurgents, driven out by the US invasion in 2001, now control "vast swaths of unchallenged territory, including rural areas, some district centres, and important road arteries," the Senlis Council says in a report released today.

On the basis of what it calls exclusive research, it warns that the insurgency is also exercising a "significant amount of psychological control, gaining more and more political legitimacy in the minds of the Afghan people, who have a long history of shifting alliances and regime change".

It says that the frontline is getting ever closer to Kabul - a warning echoed by the UN, which says more and more of the country is becoming a "no go" area for western aid and development workers.

The council goes as far as to state: "It is a sad indictment of the current state of Afghanistan that the question now appears to be not if the Taliban will return to Kabul, but when this will happen and in what form. The oft-stated aim of reaching the city in 2008 appears more viable than ever and it is incumbent upon the international community to implement a new strategic paradigm for Afghanistan before time runs out".

Its 110-page report coincides with an equally severe warning from Oxfam. In a report for the House of Commons international development committee, the humanitarian and aid agency warns that the security situation in Afghanistan is deteriorating significantly with the country's problems exacerbated by corruption in central and local government.

The report warns that urgent action is needed to avert a humanitarian disaster in which millions of Afghans face "severe hardship comparable with sub-Saharan Africa". Though the country has received more than $15bn in aid since 2001, the money is not getting to the people who need it most or to projects that could lead to sustained improvements in their lives, Oxfam says.

At least 1,200 civilians have been killed so far this year, it adds - half in operations by international or Afghan forces. There are four times as many air strikes by international forces in Afghanistan than in Iraq, Oxfam notes.

Senior British and US military commanders privately agree despite their public emphasis on short-term successes against Taliban fighters.

The insurgency is divided into a largely poverty-driven "grassroots" component and a concentrated group of "hardcore militant Islamists", says the Senlis Council, which has an office in Kabul and field researchers based in Helmand and Kandahar provinces in southern Afghanistan.

It says that the Nato-led International Security Force, Isaf, should have double the current number of 40,000 troops and should include forces from Muslim countries as well as those Nato states which have refused to send troops to the country or insist, like France and Germany, that they must not be involved in combat operations.

There is no sign, despite pressure from the US and Britain, of any move within Nato to send reinforcements to Afghanistan.

While western governments, like the Senlis Council and Oxfam, are increasingly concerned about the lack of effectiveness of President Hamid Karzai's government, there is no agreement about how to solve the problems.

While the Senlis Council wants Nato forces' provincial reconstruction teams to take on a bigger role distributing aid, Oxfam says the military should stick to providing security. And while the council says opium poppies should be bought by the international community and used licitly for medical purposes, Oxfam argues that such a project would be impossible given the current state of Afghanistan.


People like hamidm...put THAT in your pipe and smoke it! You just can NOT force people to become like you want them to.
No matter how much you bomb them...

#138 Posted by bulleya on November 21, 2007 7:56:41 am


when i first returned from pakistan, that pakistan had had it.


dayum...this means t-shirts with paki flags don't have a market among the faithful in pureland..let along indians, arabs and sti lankans in the US..

romair
[...is one difference this time.....the military is being asked to bomb its own citizens....]

Well, you bombed your own citizens in 1971... but nothing really happened to military then... so what's the difference?

romair
[...is one difference this time.....the military is being asked to bomb its own citizens....]

Well, you bombed your own citizens in 1971... but nothing really happened to military then... so what's the difference?

#140 Posted by bulleya on November 21, 2007 8:25:49 am


has shown how dependent the usa is on pakistan...


yes..the US is totally dependent on pureland..in fact, I predict that the US will lean on India to give up Indian Kashmir and Kashmir will banega pureland in 5 to 10 years..

oh wait..that was your prediction...6 years ago..

#145 Posted by shankar on November 21, 2007 9:04:24 am


I thought you were the eternal optimist.


optimist is different from self-deluded..

optimist sees the glass as half full.

the self-deluded see 5 glasses full of rooh afzha when, in fact, there is no glass to begin with...

sheesh..i thought you were a shrink..

US war on terror is failing?

only in the dreams of the CPI(M) supporters...

War on terror is failing? lets see, since 2001, the fight has been taken tot the muslim world...the result is that the muslim world is busy fighting amongst each other..Iraq is going to be divided and will fight among themselves, Palestine as a state is now a dream once again..the land has been split and the west is fine with hamas and fatah killing each other..Pakistan is going through internal strife....factionalism developing. US is now in more muslim lands directly or indirectly than ever...I am not sure if why one would thnk the wear is failing? If anything..visions of the islamic arc stretching from philippines to France has suffered a serious setback. Iran will be next..and ofcourse the arabs will take the lead. So things are looking good.

#144 Posted by bulleya

Rebuttal to a wild rant:

....do keep in mind that he physically stormed the supreme court

And Ch. Shujaat was the federal interior minister at the time. How come he allowed the mob to gather outside SC?

In fact, the disturbance was over supporters with passes not being allowed to enter SC to watch the proceedings. They tried to force their way in. There was no 'Storming of SC'.

... and had the chief justice removed, when it was to rule against him ..

And he was also the only sitting Prime Minister EVER to appear before a judge in person when summoned. Does that amount to respect for judiciary?

... that would have simply replaced him, while it still would have left his party in power.......

Not correct. The case was for contempt of court with a maximum penalty of six months which is routinely waived upon apology. No one has ever been jailed for contempt.

......so even on a milder provocation than musharraf, he destroyed the supreme court.....

Nor correct. See above.

........and he jailed najam sethi, on an even milder incident.......

Again, not correct. It was Military Intelligence (MI) which picked najam sethi up for investigation and MI does not report to the PM. Check your facts.

...he has simply criticized nawaz a bit.......

No. Sethi, after having been the National Security Adviser with access to sensitive information, went to an enemy country and publicly called Pakistan a 'failed state'.

...nawaz's henchmen, actually, broke into his house and locked his wife, after picking him up......

No. It was the Military intelligence which picked him up.

...ironically, it was musharraf who freed him.....

Who else? Of-course the army freed him because the army had picked him up in the first place.

...not to mention the fact that nawaz has a long list of corruption cases against him,

Name one. Just a single one please .... go on .... try.

... which i am quite sure he would not want any independent court to hear.......

Yeah but which one? Can you name just one case against NS for corruption? And I mean a 'case', not media character assassination.

some of the biggest scams in pakistan were under him, from the co-operatives scandal ...

Bhai, co-operatives were owned by your Chaudhries of Gujrat and not the NS family. I am quite disappointed with your lack of information made worse with wild rants.

to various others.......no one can scam like an industrialist......

Like ??? As in ???

...the defintion of an idiot

I think we've just discovered the personification of that definition right here.

"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in a time of moral crisis, remain neutral."..........(Dante)

....when, in 100 years, history is written, of a country that once existed on the banks of the kabul and the indus, it will be said: its downfall was brought about, not by the torrents of invading Spartans; nor by the maladies of invading contagions....neither drenched by cataclysmic floods, nor pinched by ravenous famines.....

...........destroyed by its own gaurdians, it was - gureillas, gunners, airmen and infrantrymen.....pilots, sappers, scouts and sailors -....whose greatest victories came against their own citizens and worst defeats came against its nation's antoganists.......its commanders - intrepid in power, faint-hearted in defiance.......its foot-soldiers - beaten, brusied, misguided, hoodwinkded and humiliated till they knew not what was right and what was wrong.....where treason was bravery and ethics was mutiny........custodians - not of geographic frontiers, but of bureaucratic affluence........

.....and when this archival of Shame is completed, its saddest chapter, its bleakest chronicle, will be of the sons and daughters of an ancient province in the heart of this once coherent land.......a province that fed this burgeoning martial beast, with its submissive and subdued volunteers.......no Poros anywhere amongst its self-aggrandizing domesticated Alexanders........

......and yes, the hottest place in hell will be reserved for these subjugated souls of this perpetually enslaved province; for the worst amongst them, in pathetic sycophany, conspired and connived to conquer their own countrymen and the best amongst them, in cowardice deferral, remained neutral......... (bulleya)

Romair,

I thought you were the eternal optimist. Thats why I'm surprised to hear you say Pakistan has had it after your last visit!
Also, I hear you visited India. Havent heard your impressions

zeemax #: ....i wouldn't put too much faith in nawaz sharif.....do keep in mind that he physically stormed the supreme court and had the chief justice removed, when it was to rule against him.......that would have simply replaced him, while it still would have left his party in power......so even on a milder provocation than musharraf, he destroyed the supreme court.....

........and he jailed najam sethi, on an even milder incident.......he has simply criticized nawaz a bit.......nawaz's henchmen, actually, broke into his house and locked his wife, after picking him up......ironically, it was musharraf who freed him.....

not to mention the fact that nawaz has a long list of corruption cases against him, which i am quite sure he would not want any independent court to hear.......some of the biggest scams in pakistan were under him, from the co-operatives scandal to various others.......no one can scam like an industrialist......

.......so lets not put our eggs in a basket which has already been tried.......bb, nawaz and musharraf all have played their innings......time for all three to go.......

the defintion of an idiot is someone who wants the same person back, expecting different results.........pakistanis should not become idiots.....

if we do a quick mathematical calcuation, based on the three factors which decide politics in pakistan - Allah, amrika and army - we can figure out how the power structure will paly out.....

1. musharraf: amrika and army are with him; Allah is against him.......so he get 2 positive and one negative....total = 2 -1 = 1

2. benazir: ...amrika is on her side......army is against her.......and Allah is undecided......she has one positive and one negative........total = 1 - 1 =0......

3. nawaz sharif:....amrika and army are against him.......Allah is with him........total = 1 -2 = -1

4. mqm: amrika and army are with them, while Allah is agains them.......total = 2 -1 = 1

5. mma: armika is against them.......Allah is with them.....army is undecided.........total = 1 -1 = 0

6. imran khan: amrika and army are against.....while Allah is with him.......total = 1 - 2 = -1

......so the most stable group is mqm at +1, which will get re-elected........then it is musharraf at +1........followed by benazir at 0 and maulvis at 0.......imran khan and nawaz are out at -1........

add-on:

...and yes ... I have no doubt nawaz sharif will hold out. He is the only person on the scene who has the proven credentials to put this country back on track, and he knows that.

#134/135 Posted by hamidm2,

You're missing a point here. Do you mean musharraf as president combined with no martial-law? Do you mean the Judiciary restored? Surely, if martial-law is lifted and the constitution restored, then all the fired judges will have to be restored. No? What's your solution for that?

NS's clear demand is (1) Lifting of martial-law (2) Restoration of judiciary; and (3) Free & Fair elections.

Can all these be met?

However, the above are the only three things which can still save the federation which is called Pakistan.

....imran khan is the one person, who will be totally opposed by the usa......he has openly stated that he will not support the usa's gwot in the manner it is being carried out today......

......i think bush's recent failures with musharraf and the fact that bush has been forced to declare musharraf a trustworthy ally, has shown how dependent the usa is on pakistan........

.......nearly the complete us logistics supply line goes through pakistan to afghanistan.....if this is broken, the us forces will be in big trouble......bush already has a disaster on his hands in iraq, he will have a bigger one in afghanistan.....

in addition, afghanis are old trained fighters.....unlike iraqis......afghanis know when to go across the border and when to stay put.......bush and nato will need to put large forces on the afghan side of the border, if they want to stop afghanis and cut off their supply lines.......this means the afghanis will kill more us and nato soldiers, as they will be sitting ducks on the border......

the solution to this is to have pakistan put 60000 of its soldiers on its side of the border.....to stop the afghanis, once they have crossed over.......this will result in pakistani soldiers getting killed and the war being fought on the pakistani side of the border and not on the afghani side.....

......so this whole myth of usa bombing pakistan to bits, if pakistan did not do what the usa wants, has come untrue.......musharraf has done mostly what he wants, yet the usa is still with him.......he has correctly called bush's bluff......they both need each other.......

Let me break everyone's BS here to announce the good news that Imran Khan has been released from prison before he starved himself to death, now he can grow up and do even greater good, Inshallah.

hamidm mian#: ".... you never cease to amaze me!.."

....if i had a dollar for everytime one of my girlfriends said this to me, i could afford my own sprinkler guy.......

...i had said, on this site, about 15 months ago, when i first returned from pakistan, that pakistan had had it.....i didn't realize my prediction would come true so quickly.......

.....my second prediction was and still is that smart money is on urstruly.....egypt isn't the only country that is going to have a mullah resurgence......pakistan is going to have it if the liberal secular class, represented by musharraf, mqm and bb doesn't stop running the country into the ground.....and doesn't stop supporting the bombing of their own territories.....

majumdar #: "f it has not happened in Egypt, any particular reason why should it happen in Pakistan?"

it has never happened in the pakistan army either......obviously martial law is good for the military, and for people who have friends in the military.....i am counting the days till one of my academy room-mates become generals and declare martial law......keep the initial "nh" in mind......if we meet after about 15 years, these may ring a bell.......

.....however, there is one difference this time.....the military is being asked to bomb its own citizens......and that too, at the instructions of the usa......this has created huge dislike of musharraf in the military, itself....i have heard captains and lieutenants badmounthing him....pilots who have refused to fly missions, have been jailed.....and soldiers have surrendered.....i have heard that one guy did not attend the funeral of his own son who died fighting in the tribal areas......

....i don't think musharraf can, indefinitely, keep pushing the military to fight in these areas.........however, he has to continue, if he wants us support......otherwise as a dictator he is a liability to the us policy......

"I don’t know what sort of emergency Egypt has, but I think their media is quite free recently..."

egypt is the ultimate emergency state.........and the ultiamte dictatorship.....it has been under emergency, since 1981, when hosni took over....and he has won landslide elections for 26 years........he is 79 yrs old, so he may not break ramesses II 66 year record.....but he could break mohammad ali's 43 yr record and move into second place....

as for media, it is always free to make movies about various topics......dictators need this to give a soft image......just like they need women wearing sleeveless shirts and modeling.......however, what happens when the media goes after the dictator......

.......all the big islamic movements and terrorist movements are based out of saudi arabia and egypt......obl is a saudi and dr. zawahiri is an egyptian.......if today elections were held in egypt and saudi arabia, religious forces would win big........

pakistan has not reahed that stage yet, because pakistan has never seen that kind of repression and becuase religious forces have had open chances to campaign......

.....however, the whole liberal set of forces is now running pakistan.......with ppp being the wild card......if ppp also joins in, then musharraf, mqm and ppp will misrule together........after that, even i may even vote for urstruly.....

Taboo-smashing film breaks Egypt records
The film's themes include poverty, sexual violence and terrorism
An Egyptian film which graphically tackles subjects such as homosexuality, abuse and terrorism in the Arab world has broken box office records after release in its country of origin. The Yacoubian Building, based on the book by Ala Aswani, has topped the Egyptian box office since the day it opened two weeks ago, and made more than one million dollars a day in the country. In a country where films are often heavily censored, the film includes frank portrayals of homosexuality, police torture, and government corruption in telling the story of a group of tenants in a decaying Cairo residency. The film's director, Marwan Hamed, told BBC World Service's On Screen programme that he thought the numbers seeing the film was "very positive" for the country, and said that at many of the screenings he has seen, audiences have been talking, reacting and even applauding all through it. "The idea of film-making is to make a film that makes people think - so the film is doing its purpose, and I'm very happy about that," he said. "It was a thin line between trying to be daring and pushing away the audience. "We need to talk about the taboos, and we need to cancel the word 'taboos' from our lives - we need to talk about everything to become better. If we don't, if we hide everything in denial, how are we going to become better?" Honest characters The Yacoubian Building depicts four distinct but interlinked stories, centring on the residents of the central Cairo apartment. The characters include an ageing womaniser, a gay man, and the son of the building's doorman, who joins a group of Muslim extremists after his application for the police force is turned down.
He ends up in prison, where he is subjected to sexual abuse and torture. It is the most expensive film ever made in Egypt, and many critics in the country have praised its portrayal of life in contemporary Cairo. Director Hamed - who directed from a screenplay adapted by his father Wahid, one of the country's most celebrated screenwriters - said that he had been inspired by the "humanity" of the characters when reading Aswani's original novel, despite their controversial actions. "Ala Aswani was very honest with his characters - he was not judgmental at all," he said. "The novel is very much open-minded, and this is what I really liked. I was reading a lot about human beings. They have their errors and faults, but at the end of the day they are humans, and good drama is about good human elements." Hamed added that the novel and film say a lot about what people in the Arab world "do not dare to say". "In our countries... we need to talk more, to express ourselves, to have discussions in a civilised way - to make this country better," he said. 'I had to close my eyes' The Yacoubian Building has received hugely varied reactions from critics and the public. Hamed said that most important critics had written "very good things" about the film, but added that he has seen huge debates amongst audiences at various screenings.
He stressed that his main concern while making the film was the audience, and how to tackle taboos and yet keep the audience from walking out. "Some people love it, some think it's too long, some think it's fast, some think it's too much, some think we need it," he said. "I like that debate very much. I think it is one of the film's successes." Certainly, outside one cinema in Cairo - where viewers gave their opinion of The Yacoubian Building to On Screen - opinions differed hugely. One said that they had seen many people walking out when seeing the scenes of homosexuality, especially the women in the audience. "It's very strange to deal with such subjects in Egypt, and so openly," said another. "It's a very good way of handling many subjects, and dealing with different situations that we find in society. This has not been tackled before by Egyptian films." Another disagreed strongly, attacking in particular the sexual content of the film. "I had to close my eyes every time," she said. "I don't like that everyone is always talking about the sex."

Re: # 129
I don’t know what sort of emergency Egypt has, but I think their media is quite free recently I watched an Egyptian film “the yacoubian building� it dealt with the contemporary issues facing Egypt, homosexuality, political corruption, Islamic fundamentalism, poverty etc. a really thought provoking film, far better than those coming from bollywood or lollywood.

Re: # 134

zeemax,

....... i am hoping that nawaz sharif has the gonads to hold out .... if he does, he can probably make a come back when this whole thing falls apart and general kiani holds another election two years down the road ........

Re: # 133

zeemax,

...... and i am amazed at your sadagi - martial law WILL be lifted before the elections and everyone will declare victory and take part in the elections ........ the only party that might hold out is pml-n if nawaz sharif and that too is very very unlikely ......

........ nobody wants to be left out of the bandar baant that will take place after the elections ......... heck, even i am angling for the presidentship of non-resident pakistani kabbadi association ........

sheikh rashid zindabad !

#127 Posted by hamidm2,

Bholey mian, I'm amazed at your 'saadgi'. Bha ji, this editorial is the epitome of kanjarpana. What it is really saying (in the guise of criticizing musharraf and pushing the bogeyman of disintegration) is that all political parties should participate in elections held UNDER MARTIAL-LAW so that these alongwith musharraf are legitimized; while all non-kanjars are demanding lifting of Martial-Law before elections. A legitimate demand.

Obviously, elections (a constitutional process) can't be held without the constitution in place, now can it?

These people actually want people to accept musharraf's PCO in place of the Constitution. I hope you get it now.

Salman Taseer as well as all his yellow media rags i.e. Daily Times, Friday Times and Business Plus Channel are all kanjars of 9.5 scale and fully committed to promoting kanjarpana.

Re: # 128 Posted by hamidm2 on November 21, 2007 5:37:32 am

[sada musharraff, avay i avay ! ] mullah pavay shore muchavey

what happened to your shaikh rashid zindabad slogan?

Romair sahib,

(and like hosni, musharraf also has never won a war in which he commanded the forces.....)

Mush did win the War in Okara.

(the army itself could turn against him........a problem, perhapsh, hosni did not have to face....... )

If it has not happened in Egypt, any particular reason why should it happen in Pakistan?

Regards

Re: # 129

romair mian,

......... thank you for answering my question and demonstrating your mastery of yet another area - egyptian politics .... you never cease to amaze me!

.... anyway, the problem with the egyptian model is that hosni has completely destroyed all secular opposition and has created a pressure cooker in the mosques ........ one of these days it will blow and who knows what will happen then .......

... for now, egypt is doing fine as long as they can stop their government mullahs from issuing silly fatwas that force muslim women to breast feed their co-workers in order to keep their jobs .........

....egypt is a country that has been under emergency rule for 25 years.......its ruler is hosni mubarak, whose previous job was chief of air staff of the egyptian air force......the egyptian air force has the unique distinction of being totally destroyed by israeal, within six days, without even a single plane taking off........

hosni mubarak has many achievements to his name........he became the president of egypt in 1981.....hence, going on to year no. 26, he is the longest serving president in the world.........he is also the third longest serving head of egypt in the 7000 year history....ramesses II holds the record at 66 years.......

.....i have always felt egypt is the one muslim country which pakistan resembles the most......hence it is appropriate that pakistan should also have its own hosni mubarak.......

....musharraf has many things in common with hosni....like hosni, musharraf also headed a military arm.....and like hosni, musharraf also has never won a war in which he commanded the forces.....like hosni, he has kept pakistan under some sort of an emergency for 8 years......and like hosni, he has the utmost respect and support of the usa.......and like hosni, he is seen as the one person the west can rely on to take on the extremists......

.......hosni mubarak is the head of his own political party, which wins every election by a landslide.......and continues to appoint him president.....musharraf may do the same, shortly........

it will be interesting to see how musharraf will control things as a civilian president......it would not have been too difficult had the waziristan and swat situation not popped up......however, the only reason the americans are supporting him is because he is the only pakistani (other than hamidm mian) who will allow them total logistic access as well as is willing to bomb pakistani territory on their behalf........

.........this, of course, has its reprucussions.....the army itself could turn against him........a problem, perhapsh, hosni did not have to face.......

tahmed,

.......... i would advise you to give up your 'struggle' against musharraf before you break a nail or, god forbid, develop carpel tunnel syndrome ........

........ just accept the fact that he is going to be the president for the next five years and everyone, including bb and ns, will fall in line .......

.... personally, i am going to throw my weight behind musharraf so that i can get appointed as president of the kabbadi association or something .........


sada musharraff, avay i avay !

zeemax,

salman taseer is also an old ppp guy and some say he was added to the cabinet to throw a bone to bb ....... here is what his paper, daily times, said in its editorial today:

Second Editorial: An election boycott’s sinister consequences

The opposition is being pushed by General Musharraf into a decision to boycott the January 2008 elections. But if the Musharraf establishment thinks it can ride out the storm simply by encouraging the rifts in the opposition alliances, it is a hazardous strategy fraught with dangerous consequences for Pakistan. If the boycott materialises in the coming days, General Musharraf’s plan will be left high and dry and he will be shorn of any tricks in its bag to save the country from being engulfed in disorder. People are already talking of civil war and the country disintegrating on Musharraf’s watch. Under the circumstances, the state can be saved only through the democratic solvent of a general election validated by all the political parties. As events unfold, the PPP may be thinking about a boycott and the JUIF may be determined not to boycott the polls, but as we step into the run-up days, fear of isolation may push those sitting on the fence to join the fray.

As it is, the administrative glue is barely holding the state together. Important organs of civil society are alienated from the state whereas they should be coming together behind the state to face the challenge of Al Qaeda. Private sector institutions that normally hold the state to accountability are on the warpath. The political parties are important “mediators� of civil society and the state. If they reject the safety valve of a general election, there will be no option left but recourse to violence. Unfortunately, this violence will be in parallel to the violence of Talibanisation, ensuring that the state becomes unviable. *

#125 Posted by hamidm2,

president for life ....... only till the fat lady sings ...

Re: # 124

uh? ....the question was, 'are you pissed because you never get invited to his parties even though you have a burgundy slk?"

....... my point about egypt was that nobody knows or cares about the egyptian coas but everyone knows hosni mubarak ........ and next week, musharraf will become our hosni mubarak and president for life .......

that's why i say :

president musharraf zindabad !

#123 Posted by hamidm2,

Yaar I know him well enough. I despise him because he pointedly hired sharp tongued and big swinging boobed anchors (in dupatta-less uniforms of-course) like Jasmeen Manzoor and Juggan Kazim to promote his master's moderate enlightenment on his Business Plus Channel.

Re the Egypt COAS, I don't have a clue and couldn't care less! Whoever he is will have the same fate as musharraf.

Re: # 122

zeemax,

...... are you pissed because you have never been invited to one of his parties? ... tch!tch! ... get over it

........ in any case, the more important question was, "do you know the name of the egyptian army chief of staff?"

#121 Posted by hamidm2,

....... who could be more civil than salman taseer?

Yes I noticed. If kanjars were rated on a scale of 1-10, he would get about 9.5.

.... who is the egyptian army chief of staff?

president musharraf zindabad!

......... i am withdrawing my support for democracy, rule of law, restoration of the constitution, the droopy eyed chief justice in his compound, benazir bhutto in bilawal house, nawaz sharif in his harem, imran khan in the big house ........ i never supported anyone with a beard (or shaven private parts), so my position on fazloo and the mardoodiites remains unchanged ........

......... why?....... because i am a realist ..... general musharraf is going to become mr musharraf on saturday and the guardian of the grand temple has ensured him that nawaz sharif will remain his guest ........ bb, fazloo, altaph bai and everyone else who matters have agreed to take part in the elections ..... imran khan will be the only one left, and he too will be made a senator or chief dog catcher of mianwali at some point ....... so let's all drop this nonsense and welcome the new phase in pakistani politics - the egyptian era .......


sheik rashid zindabad!
president musharraf zindabad!

p.s. has anyone noticed that the most 'civil' of civil society are part of the interim government ........ who could be more civil than salman taseer?

#118 DashDot:

1. Why is climbing "up the social scale" so important? This rotten VIP culture of Pakistan has no place in modern society!! Isnt it more imporatant to make Pakistan a free and progressive society for ALL Pakistanis? Not just those who are in the military?

2. Wrong again. Those who join the military are those who were educationally not qualified to get into professional colleges. "Sifarish" does not get you admission into professional colleges or in world-class firms. The rot is in the military, not in the civil society.

3. This claim that the army has the national interest in mind is the biggest fraud perpetrated by Musharraf and his ghoondas on Pakistan. These rascals are in it for their personal wealth and glory. It is people like the Chief Justice who have risen above their personal selves to fight for the rule of law in Pakistan who have proved they have the broader interests of the nation in mind.

Zyxius: Agreed that we could have a smaller military given the nukes - the real goal though is to end military interference in politics. And a smaller military, while part of the solution, is not going to guarantee that by any means.

As for this ending dependence on the US - keep in mind that the world is an increasingly interdependent world. The more progressive a nation, the more (not less) interdependent it is on the rest of the world.

So, again you need to focus on the real goal - which is to give power to the people in Pakistan. Not shut the rest of the world out of Pakistan, and reset the clock to 12 noon, 700 AD in Pakistan.

no I am not giving the army a god-like role.....

as things stand right now, let me state it clearly

the army is the ONLY INSTITUTION which

(a) provides a professional atmosphere for ANYONE to climb up the social scale

(b) provides an employment opportunty for the people - who want to get away from the sifarish and mai-baap fuedal set up that CIVIC Society is in Pakistan - and makes it gainful

(c) the only OBJECTIVE institution in paksiatn which looks beyond its immediate survival - it is very much different from the politicians so far and the judges so far. It is only today that you find yourself rooting for these toads. But where were these toads when civilian administartions were removed, when Shareef-e-badmash invaded the SC.

Come on Tahmed32 you can do better than that....as I said you seem to be getting unhealthyly attached to the means rather than the goal. ;-()

DashDot: In #111 you say the "the army is the only saviour of pakistan" and in #113 you say "the army being so large is atleast providing half a million people with jobs".

You give the army this God-like role of saving Pakistan and providing jobs to half a million individuals who you imply are not employable in any real job. This is absurd. I think you can do better than that.

Zyxius,

(Besides, we Muslims (and I'm not talking Jihadis) have enough pull inside India to destabilize that country entirely and bring it to its knees)

Are you Field Marshall Romair by another nick.

Regards

Tahmed32 you are getting paranoid in your old dotage.....
;-()

I would recommend a few movies and watch dvds beyonce, shakira, etc for a few days....and yes take that vacation to Brazil - was it in Rio that your friend has that great flat overlooking the copacabana (T)

Dash,

(I say the army is the only saviour of pakistan.)

Considering their karnamas- 1971, W'stan and Swat, I would hardly describe them as such.

(wait for the generation of Manto to come through )

You have a point here. Pakistan's economy is growing and so is its middle class. At one point of time, its society would have evolved to a point where the middle class will be too strong to be overruled. Politically, it will experience what South Korea, Phillipines and other East Asian countries have gone through.

Regards

Re: # 110
but you are forgetting one thing here.....what will you do to the trained young personnel?

I mean currently pakistan does not have a relief valve nor does it provide opportunty for the lower calsses to climb up the greasy social ladder. The Army is the only venue by which they can do it without sifarish and hassle.

Also the army being so large is atleast providing half a million people with jobs. half million who would otherwise be on the streets creating more mayhem ....think about it....

Personally I dont think that it makes sense to be so paranoid about an Indian invasion. In this day and age, the idea of an invasion can only be entertained by the sole superpower who too has suffered as a result of these kinds of misadventures. So, I feel that there is absolutely no need to defend ourselves against India beyond our nuclear capabilities.

With so much of our budget going to the army, there is no way that we can advance ourselves so we should realize that the Indian threat is more of a locally concocted bogeyman than a reality. Besides, we Muslims (and I'm not talking Jihadis) have enough pull inside India to destabilize that country entirely and bring it to its knees so I doubt very much that India would ever attempt such a foolish thing regardless of Pakistan's difficulties. However, I think its best to leave that kind of adversarial thinking behind and focus on our real problems which are a true economic and political independence from the US and the western powers. We are not yet totally free and its not the Indians we need to worry about, its the Americans and our own situation.

Re: # 105
That is not right....tell me Tahmed32 - even one person amongst the guys today who are in the same league as YLH.

Tell me one leader who has done something more positive for the country than they have done for themselves. (I am all for a pol doing good for themselves).

Tahmed32, you seem to be losing your objectivity here, by getting emotionally attached to the means rather than the goal. None of the present day leadership can deliver what you want....wait for the generation of Manto to come through - the younger generation from what I have seen (from my interaction with them) are more savvy, clued on, less of a navel gazers, and more of doers, and more confident of themselves and really know where they want to get to and are adept at getting the required tools to get there.

Till then, I say the army is the only saviour of pakistan. The rest will sell their souls for a few mansions in surrey and dubai!

#109 Majumdar: Agreed. With the nuclear deterrent, Pakistan can afford to have a smaller conventional army. That would be part of the answer to the question of eliminating future military interference in politics.

Tahmed sahib,

(it cant hope to do that after nuclearization)

Exactly all that Pak needs is to maintain a small nuke army. The regular Pak army can do only one thing- conquer Pakistan every now and then.

Regards

#107 majumdar: hey, i just report the news. :-) and the news is that the Indian military has initiated wargames across the border. This may not mean India will invade Pakistan (it cant hope to do that after nuclearization). But it also means Pakistan cannot afford to put its guard down with India like Costa Rica did.

Tahmed sahib,

(if there were no external threats to Pakistan. )

You seriously believe that Injuns are crazy enuff to invade Pakistan and undo 1947???

(India, as you may know, has initiated wargames across the border)

I believe "war games" are NORMAL training exercises for NORMAL armies. Unlike your army our guys dont train by storming the Supreme Court or scaling the gates of PM House!!!

Regards

majumdar #104 Costa Rica would be a great model if there were no external threats to Pakistan.

India, as you may know, has initiated wargames across the border - hardly a gesture designed to assure Pakistanis that they can let their guard down even as the country goes through internal struggles.

#104 DashDot: Your answer (i.e. condemning an entire generation of Pakistanis) gets an A for emotional satisfaction for someone raised on hate-Pakistan fodder, but gets an F for objective insight. :-)

Re: # 101

Second, Unless structural adjustments are made whereby no ambitious general can ever dream of overthrowing an elected government again in Pakistan, this struggle of the military vs the civil society of Pakistan will continue.

So, the big question is the one I had for HP in #97 - How does one ensure that the Pakistan military never overthrows the constitution in future?

This will never happen with the current generation of pakistani leadership. You will have to wait for a few years befor this happens. The current generation are venal, vicious and extremely feudal. Venal and vicious are negative characteristics to have in a politician, but when combined with the thrid one you get a mess.

You also need to get over the hangover of martial races concept....and it is this and the lack of opportunty for the young man with no money/backing etc are two of the main causes.....in fact I would say the "lack of opportunty" is the main cause....

Tahmed sahib,

(How does one ensure that the Pakistan military never overthrows the constitution in future?)

You may consider the Costa Rica model, it abolished the military simply to avoid military coup about 50 years back. Today it is the most prosperous and progressive nation in Mesoamerica. That too without any oil.

Regards

#99 majumdar/Dash_Dot: Who knows how this plays out. Two things seem certain:

First, the civil society in Pakistan, led by the lawyers, is not going to give Musarraf a comfortable dictatorship of the kind enjoyed by one of the middle east clowns (Mobarik, Gaddafi who is not just a dictator for life but is grooming his son, and Assad who inherited his dictatorship). And this is despite Musharraf's best efforts at destroying the civil society of Pakistan and promoting mullahism in its place (following the Mobarik Manual on Job Security for Dictators).
Second, Unless structural adjustments are made whereby no ambitious general can ever dream of overthrowing an elected government again in Pakistan, this struggle of the military vs the civil society of Pakistan will continue.

So, the big question is the one I had for HP in #97 - How does one ensure that the Pakistan military never overthrows the constitution in future?

Dash,

{The civilians will carry the can for a fiasco (killing pakistanis and/or not delivering) - the army will come out smelling of roses and we are back to square one.}

That is indeed very likely. If the kanjaroons succeed, Army gets all the credit, if they fail and concomittantly there are large civilian casualties, all the blame falls on the bloody civvies.

Having said that, the most likely outcome of the war in NWFP is a prolonged insurgency (like JK, NE India) without clear cut victories. And for that reason it is important that popular governance return so that the GoP can carry the whole nation along rather end up like 1971 fighting against its own people.

Regards

Re: # 92, #99 #98

ineresting scenario is this - Mushy gives up uniform to become prez, Bibi as PM, Kayani as COAS a good troika and heirarchy. (Internally it might be different, and given the NSC's composition it will be so).
It would be interesting to see what happens on the NWFP/FATA fronts. Note, the army is not able to make the unpalatable decisions (decisions which on the surface appear to benefit the US (see#92)), but the civilian govt headed by Mush as Prez and BiBi as PM will make those decisions and hand them to Kayani who will implement them. The civilians will carry the can for a fiasco (killing pakistanis and/or not delivering) - the army will come out smelling of roses and we are back to square one.

On the other hand, the civilians might just take this opportunty and ensure that power does not slip from them again. Somehow, i doubt this will happen with this generation of leadership in Pakistan. We will have to wait for another before it happens (I call it the Manto generation for want of a better phrase).

Tahmed sahib,

Assuming of course that Mush steps down as COAS what happens next?

Does Kayani come in and say "Thank you, sir and Khuda Hafiz" as Yahya is alleged to have told Ayub and dismisses him as Prez as well

or do we have a troika again - Kayani, Mush and BB ruling over Pakistan as peons of the West

or a genuine democratic order with fresh elections chosing a new electoral college which elects the new Prez as well as PM.

Regards

majumdar #95: While nothing Musharraf's government says carries any weight, given how easily he reneges on what he has said. It does seem though that he cant really stay on as military chief - and to my mind the credit for this goes to the bold stand the Chief Justice took last year when he refused to accede to Musharraf's demands to give him the benefit of legal cover to remaining a President in uniform.

Once the wardi is gone, Mush's power is bound to unravel it seems. The bigger question of removing military interference from politics and returning power to the Pakistani people thus comes to the forefront (see my post to HP below).

HP #92 That editorial was for Hamidm to consider, as you will note. Since he had been up in arms about maulvis being the problem (as Mush has been claiming), and this editorial indicates that Mush's game is up. And that to me is progress, since (as I have been pointing out to zeemax earlier), the mullahs are merely musharraf's bogeymen that he has used for job security.

On the bigger issue, I of course fully agree. The military in Pakistan has to be put in its place - it's job is to serve the Pakistani people, not rule over them. The central question is How?

To me there has never been a better time than now to do now.

HP #92 That editorial was for Hamidm to consider, as you will note. Since he had been up in arms about maulvis being the problem (as Mush has been claiming), and this editorial indicates that Mush's game is up. And that to me is progress, since (as I have been pointing out to zeemax earlier), the mullahs are merely musharraf's bogeymen that he has used for job security.

On the bigger issue, I of course fully agree. The military in Pakistan has to be put in its place - it's job is to serve the Pakistani people, not rule over them. The central question is How?

To me there has never been a better time than now to do now.

Masadi sahib,

The peon of the West (Mush that is not Tahmed sahib) will be stepping down as COAS by the weekend it seems.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/nov/21pakemergency2.htm

"Pakis tan President Pervez Musharraf [Images] may quit as army chief as early as this weekend, the government's top lawyer said on Wednesday.

"The issue of President Musharraf's uniform is now a matter of days," Attorney General Malik Qayyum told reporters at the Supreme Court.

If the apex court announces its verdict on a petition challenging Musharraf's re-election in uniform by Thursday and Friday, the president might doff his uniform by this weekend, Qayyum said.

The attorney general also indicated that Musharraf was likely to take oath as early as Saturday or Sunday.

The military ruler's re-election in the October 6 presidential poll was challenged in the Supreme Court though five of the six petitions were dismissed by Musharraf's hand-picked judges on November 19.

The remaining petition, described by legal experts as a minor one, will be taken up by the apex court on Thursday.

Musharraf was unofficially declared the winner in the presidential election, which was boycotted by the opposition, but the Supreme Court had barred the Election Commission from issuing the official notification of the result till it decided on his candidature.

After declaring emergency on November 3, Musharraf sacked most of the judges of the Supreme Court, including many of those who were hearing the case related to his re-election.

New judges who endorsed the emergency were sworn in later.

Musharraf has insisted that he will take oath as a civilian president for his next term once the apex court validated his election victory.

The Election Commission on Tuesday announced the schedule for the general election to be held on January 8."

Regards

Editorial from tahmed states "The state of emergency he declared did not facilitate the army's fight against extremists, as he claimed, but it allowed him to fire a dozen Supreme Court judges who were considering legal challenges to his highly manipulated "reelection" as president. "

"Firing" the SC was a mere distraction, the real issue was the uniform. The SC would have hopped to, as they did by allowing the election to go ahead in the first case by terming the objections "umnanageable" (what kind of BS was that?) That said, these same editorials did not make any issue of the SC when the same judges took oath under the earlier PCO or when a democratic setup was illegally usurped by Musharraf earlier, at that time Bush, without even knowing the name of Musharraf was all parises for him, they do not mention anything about the judges that hopped to to the earlier dictator the Zia ul Fcuq, they were all praises for him, and they will be all praises for the next ul Fcuk that the military coughs up when it coincides with US motives in the region. After a while dictators have to be discarded because the "office" a new situation makes them get too independant and forget who put them in the position in the first place, they get all confused about "sovereignty", in other words "wo ipni awkaat bhool jatey hain", and the the American "democracy" path to "dictatorship" kicks in just like the dictator's, "dictatorial path to democracy". Flip side of the same f'ing coin....

HP mian we all know why the peon of the West tahmed is doing by these posts, he is pushing the US pov, he will not condemn the institution supported by the Americans that coughs up one dictator after another, he will merely look at individuals because that will do nothing to change the relationship that ensures lack of democracy and the master/slave relationship that the US perpetuates through its occupation force. You can see through this peon's posts pre Feb 2007 and the kind of vitriol he has for Musharraf now was absent then, why? because he is merely pushing what happens to be popular with the US at the current time in its adjustments in the area....

#91

Editorials like this have only one purpose: look after the US interests. The problem in Pakistan is the Pak army not this general or that general.

Any editorial, write up or comment that says Gen Ash Kiyani "Gen. Musharraf's likely military successor, Gen. Ashfaq Kiyani, a pro-Western moderate" is basically BSing. Is Kiyani more pro west than Musharaf or is he more moderate than Musharaf? What is there to prove his credential? The US wants to replace Mush with Kiyani. In essence just the same person with a different first and the last name.

Intelligent Pakistani should be calling for the end of the army rule. This is one hell of an opportunity to get rid of the army for good. The non sense like Kiyani is Pro West only means that he is acceptable to the US as the next President of Pakistan. What would Pakistanis gain if Kiyani becomes the President? It is the same old, same old shiat.

This is the real reech ka naach that we are witnessing...we need to get off madaripan that gives us a new reech every five years who still dances to the same old tunes. Every five years or so we get a new Pro west Army general as the President. This cycle has to be broken and it is not going to break by posting WP's editorials on Chowk. This is arjun's game and only arjun is dumb enough to play this. Why should others emulate him?

All this WP editorial means is: Naya jaam laiya puranaa Sharabi!

hamidm #81 An editorial that you might find useful when trying to understand the problem.

Gen. Musharraf Is the Problem
An end to Pakistan's political crisis is incompatible with his personal ambitions.
Tuesday, November 20, 2007

...It is increasingly clear that Gen. Musharraf has become the foremost obstacle to ending Pakistan's state of emergency and revitalizing what has been a losing battle against Islamic extremists.
..Every major step Gen. Musharraf has taken in the past two weeks has been aimed at preserving his hold on power, at the expense of his country. The state of emergency he declared did not facilitate the army's fight against extremists, as he claimed, but it allowed him to fire a dozen Supreme Court judges who were considering legal challenges to his highly manipulated "reelection" as president. Yesterday the new judges appointed by Gen. Musharraf dismissed most of the challenges; they are paving the way for him to remain president even as they destroy the nascent independence of the Pakistani judiciary.

..Musharraf has sought to appease the Bush administration by announcing parliamentary elections for early January. But he has refused to lift the state of emergency and has suggested several times that he will hold the vote under de facto martial law. That would save Gen. Musharraf from the political and legal challenges that could flow from a restoration of the rule of law, since his actions after he suspended the constitution have been hugely unpopular and blatantly illegal. It could also allow him to control the results of the elections and prevent a strong showing by Pakistan's two largest secular political parties, which oppose him. But it would make a mockery of democracy and ruin the chance for Pakistan's moderate center -- its political parties, jurists, journalists and civil society groups -- to unite with the army against the growing threat of the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

The Bush administration, which for years has made the mistake of wedding itself to Gen. Musharraf rather than working to strengthen the country's secular institutions, at last is backing away slightly. President Bush telephoned the general to ask that he step down as army chief; Deputy Secretary of State John D. Negroponte said after meeting Gen. Musharraf on Saturday that "emergency rule is not compatible with free, fair and credible elections." Mr. Negroponte also met with Gen. Musharraf's likely military successor, Gen. Ashfaq Kiyani, a pro-Western moderate. But the Bush administration is still clinging to the idea that Gen. Musharraf can be induced to make a deal with opposition leader Benazir Bhutto, though she has said publicly that she will no longer work with him.

In reality, it is difficult to imagine a positive outcome to Pakistan's crisis that does not involve Gen. Musharraf's retirement. The country's best interest, and that of the United States, lies in restoring the constitution, reinstating and strengthening an independent judiciary, reopening independent media without restrictions, and holding free and fair elections in which all Pakistani parties are able to participate. As Gen. Musharraf himself has recognized, he cannot survive in office under those conditions.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/19/AR 2007111901197.html

#89 GT {"Someone has already flagged one of my posts. "}

GT Sahib,
On UP that happens to almost every 3rd post. :) You mean Scout is busy on FP too?

#88 Posted by zeemax:

Zee,
If LMP is indeed taken over by the Taliban then yes, you better get that turban.

#87 Posted by Salim_Chauhan:

Yar,
You will get me into trouble. Someone has already flagged one of my posts.

#84 Posted by GT,

Ohh GT Saheb, Swat is LMP. You didn't know that? I'm surprised.

I'll clarify it a bit more. Fazlullah is LMP. Taliban are his helpers in time of need. Remember Fazlullah had said at the very outset "Swat is not Lal Masjid who were 'bey-sar-o-samaan' (helpless and shelter less). Here we have mountains and trained people".

However, it does appear Taliban may indeed overtake the LMP because it is them who are providing the fighters and the ammunition. That will be tragic. But what can one do with the stupidity of Pakistani kanjars? Do read my iLog at the time of Lal Masjid that either agree on head-scarves or be prepared for burqas.

If Nawaz Sharif is allowed to return, it will save the obvious eventuality. If not, I think even the much milder LMP will be over-run and whatever is left of Pakistan will be ruled by Taliban.

I better go get a turban quick. Sorry, I won't be beheaded.

#85 GT {"Chauhan sahib,
Well said. I, for one, will perhaps stop visiting chowk if hamidm and urstruly stop interacting."}

GT Bhai,
Is that what they do? ... and I thought it was some twisted Pathan mating ritual so close to the Indus that Punju rites had to be included out of sheer osmosis.

I'll Reply to this essay with an exclusive paper

#80 Posted by Salim_Chauhan;

Chauhan sahib,

Well said. I, for one, will perhaps stop visiting chowk if hamidm and urstruly stop interacting.

#79 Posted by zeemax:

Dear Zee,

Actually, I too do not care as to who wins - the Taliban or the Army. As long as people can get rid of their rulers whenever they want to in an organized non-violent manner, I would be happy. This will not come about tomorrow, heck we do not have it in India today. But it will come about, it has to. You may think of the present non-violent civilian movement as useless. I do not. It is doing its part in reaching that goal a bit faster.

I have no doubt in my mind that the Taliban will be a disaster for Pakistan. In particular, you with all your partying will be the first to be beheaded. After you, it will be the turn of hamidm and masadi. But do not worry, the Taliban will not win. Now, the LMP is a totally different proposition. I would not be surprised if Hamidm starts sending it tax-deductable contributions.

#81 Hamidum {"King Abdullah and President Musharraf were of the view that terrorism in the name of religion was a blot on the Muslims and Islam,"}

Hamidumdum Sahib:

How to win the War on Terror and save Islam simultaneously

Bomb Soodi Arabia

The overwhelming number of problems for Muslims and the vast majority of terrorist supporters are associated with the Kingdom of Soodi Arabia.

9/11, AlKayda, Tally Bans, Jihadists, are mostly inspired, funded, supported by Soodi Wahaboobis.

The power structure in Soodi Arabia - the monarchy, the religious shaikhs, the religious police, and the judiciary are all deliberate contributors to the defaming and ridicule that Islam is suffering today.

Forget Mushy, forget the Paki judiciary, forget BB and get the Soodis, Wahaboobis, their judiciary, and throw the bums out of Mecca like the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did almost 1400 years ago.

#26 Posted by tahmed32 on November 19, 2007 7:22:36 am
{" another thing on BB, further to #24: She is part of the solution for now to the extent that at this time she is shaking up Musharraf's disastrous dictatorship that needs to be ended and the Chief Justice restored. BB can then be removed in due course through the election process when the bigger problem of ending Musharraf's destruction of the pillars of Pakistani nationhood is solved."}

Hypo Chacha,
Not only can you predict the outcome of "fair and transparent" elections, but you know the exact timing for utlizing people and then trading them in for more useful tools. With citizens like you we certainly deserve the devious politicians and ruthless dictators we have always had.

.... going back to the war on terror, it seems that mushy and the guardian of the grand temple of mecca agree that we have to join this war on terror .......... i think that is good! ... hopefully he will send saudi troops in their night clothes and air-conditioned armored mercedes to take on the wild men of waziristan and swat ...... maybe they will bring along some rolex watches to hand out to the natives ....

RIYADH: President General Pervez Musharraf met Tuesday different officials of Saudi Arab officials including the Custodian of two Holy Mosques King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz of Saudi Arabia and expressed consensus over need for reinvigorating efforts to combat extremism and terrorism as it poses a threat to the world peace.

King Abdullah and President Musharraf were of the view that terrorism in the name of religion was a blot on the Muslims and Islam, which preaches peace, tolerance and compassion and rejects violence and extremist behaviour.

#72 Zyxius {"Hamidm, You are an idiot! "}

Dear Zyxius

Although I pretend to know a lot more than Hamidumdum Sahib, I have no idea what Zyxius stands for. As for calling him an idiot, I have to disagree with you there. Any man who can drive Urstruly to drink can hardly be an idiot. While you have every right to be upset at the irreverence and irrelevance of his thoughts, please consider the infinite wisdom and matching patience exhibited by Mrs. Hamidumdum all these years. Although he is often imitated by that other geriatric known as Hypo Chacha Al Butteesi, there is a vast difference between the two. Most people would love to have a round with either of the two sages. The difference is that with Hamidumdum Sahib, you would feel obligated to buy him another round at the conclusion of the first. With Chacha, you would feel obligated, only for your humanitarianism, to hit the old fool on the head with both empty bottles. Cheers.

#78 Posted by GT,

GT Bhai, let me put it in plain words. The deeply entrenched military and its kanjar supporters will only be ousted by a revolution.

The only question is, who will furnish that revolution? Who has the cadres? Who is sufficiently motivated and able to attempt it at great personal risk?

I wish it was the educated civil society, but those are wimps. They will stop sulking once they get their stupid TV channels back and compromise on the superior judiciary.

It could be the poor, but throw some subsidized wheat, Ghee and sugar their way and they couldn't care a fig who sits in Islamabad or whether there is a judiciary/democracy etc.

Who does that leave? And may the best man win.

#74 Posted by zeemax:

"With what? Banners and slogans? Megaphones perhaps?"

For the present, I would like to think, that these should suffice. In fact, at this stage, it should be nothing else. But who am I to decide.

dear zyxius -- don't be a sore literalist -- enjoy the satire. Hamidm is a rare breed -- the Chowk's Oliver Swift.

#72 Posted by Zyxius,

err... actually Mrs hamidm (if one exists i.e.) is a fine momina as per hamidm. As for hamidm himself, he is as dheet as one can get and I sympathize with your indignation but this guy is the resident jester. You'll get used to him in some time :)

#73 - Hamidm

"..... unfortunately, there is nothing i can do about being born with this horrible double condition - islam and brown skin ..... and after seeing the mess michael jackson made out of himself, i am not willing to run the risk of changing my apprearance"

Really....that is just pathetic.

#69 Posted by GT

Nevertheless, it should be emphasized that the present movement has the potential of defeating the army as well as the Taliban types for good.

With what? Banners and slogans? Megaphones perhaps?

Re: # 72

zyxius mian,

.... i didn't 'indirectly' admit that i am not one of them - i admitted it directly ...... and who is responsible for that? ...... you and your jihadi brothers! ..... i was doing fine until you had to go and ruin it for all of us ..... but inspite of all that, i get treated better at us airports than at the islamabad airport where everyone is cutting in front of me while i wait patiently like a civilized white person in a gaggle of smelly natives ....

..... unfortunately, there is nothing i can do about being born with this horrible double condition - islam and brown skin ..... and after seeing the mess michael jackson made out of himself, i am not willing to run the risk of changing my apprearance .....i would change my religion, but all my friends and family are muslims and i also happen to like eid and basant ..... i also don't want to be the the first one under the guillotine at gaddafi stadium when you guys finally take over .......

.... as for mrs hamidm, i would be worried about her if she was not a fan of imran khan - any normal woman would be ...... what i can't understand is her fascination with pansies like hugh grant and tom cruise .... i would have thought that guys like them would appeal more to mullahs and catholic priests .... go figure

#65 - Humsab,

The issue with the point you just made is that Hamidm regularly insults (rather than debate or discuss) Islam, the Prophet (pbuh), and everything Muslim in a most inappropriate way. I think its only fair that he be as respectful of other people's religion as he expects them to be about his wife. And please don't tell me such and such is against Islam because you don't get to insult and abuse a system and then turn to it as a rule book to hold against others. Also, you please re-read some of his older posts in which he has boasted of his wife having been Imrans classmate, not his sisters and also that she has been an immense "fan" of his ever since despite Hamidm's protestations to the contrary.

Laddu, you are such an idiot that you aren't worth more of a response than this. Your past posts clearly reflect your mental level and I'm sorry but I am not willing to stoop to it.

Hamidm,

You are an idiot!
"that's why we have to find and kill the jihadis over there - in iraq, afghanistan, waziristan"

Tell me please who "WE" is...conservative American values would mean that a sand nigger like you would never even have made it to the US. They still do not consider you one of them and you just indirectly admitted that when you said

"i agree with you completely - one more bombing and i might have to move into the cell next to yours in guantanamo"

So you too realize that your status in the US is basically a temporary one which will be easily revoked from you and you will be placed in the same category as those you call Jihadis. Does that not make you realize that they do not consider you part of the "WE"? You must be totally delusional to be arguing what you are.

hamid writes "we don't want to disrupt the football and hockey season now that the lions and the redwings are both doing fairly well ........ "

He wants the cheerful robots (morons) to stay busy with play and distraction, otherwise how would the US elite rob its people blind, make them work multiple jobs and pocket the surplus, and then collect from them for the games and booze that keeps them intellectually numb and cheerfully drugged. Ever been to a game in the US, its more dramabazi than "game", and you should see people making minimum wage dish out $50 dollars for a made in Bangladesh shirt with the logo of their team printed on it.....you want to see the human moron in action, go to a game in the US, nevermind what game, basketball, baseball, football whatever....

Regimentation can be broadly defined to be of two types - political and social. For example the USSR was politically regimented and to a large extent the US is socially regimented. Social regimentation is a tough concept to understand. But examples could be the following - (a) large sections of the US population believing with certainty that Saddam was behind 9/11; (b) Blacks believing with certainty that OJ did not kill his wife and vice-versa for whites; (c) not walking on the grass because a small sign asks you not to, even though you feel like doing so and there is no-one miles around you. (Note that regimentation, as in the examples, need not be 'bad').

I mention regimentation because, the press today is politically regimented in Pakistan while it is socially regimented in India. Yet, inspite of the emergency, the analysis and information provided by the Pakistani press on events in swat etc. is much better than that by the Indian press on Nandigram (and I have read across the board from CPM newspapers to the RSS ones).

From the scarce news filtering in, it seems that a lot of commoners (truck drivers, mosque goers etc.) are getting killed. Shias and Sunnis are at each others throats and intra tribal rivalry seems to be picking up. It is difficult for an outsider like me to figure out what is happening. On one hand zeemax is claiming that this is just the Taliban openning up many fronts. On the other hand Majumdar is suggesting that the army is manipulating the Taliban to do what it wants them to do. HP and Masadi had sort of predicted what Majumdar is saying now, quite a while back. Whatever be the politics, a lot of people are indeed dying. And whatever the politics, this fighting has the potential of stopping the movement for democracy right where it began. The fortcomming election is going to be a farce, but I am talking about the long term.

In the midst of all this gloom, what is a wee bit encouraging is the ongoing politicization of the middle class. Emerging leaders like Imran Khan may grow to dominate a much broader section of the political landscape. Such emergence of new leaders is indeed good. The politicization of small sections of middle-class students is also encouraging. But all this will come to nothing if the civil non-violent resistance against the dictator (=army) comes to a stop. One has to be realistic and concede that this is indeed a very small movement and will go no-where if the movement does not reach the common people like hamidm's cook. Nevertheless, it should be emphasized that the present movement has the potential of defeating the army as well as the Taliban types for good.

zee, dont spread BS ...sikhs are doing just fine in the land of the free and home of the brave...the first sikh lawmakers portrait was unveiled at the capitol recently and turbans will be respected by the tsa.

http://www.sikhcoalition.org/advisories/TSADevelopsNewProcedure.htm

O ctober 17, 2007 (Washington, D.C.) - The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) yesterday announced a new security screening procedure that will apply to all religious head coverings at U.S. airports. The new procedures will go into effect on October 27, 2007. The new procedures, designed to detect non-metallic objects, do not allow a TSA screener to touch a Sikh's turban without cause unless the Sikh traveler gives the screener permission to do so. The change is a direct response to the concerns raised by Sikhs and Sikh organizations, including the Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund (SALDEF), the Sikh Coalition, and UNITED SIKHS over the last two months.

Lets fight against the use of depleted uranium weapons on civilians.

Re: # 65

Zyxius is a dim witted Islamist who cannot argue for a minute on the myths of Islamic cult.
That is why he has to threaten, abuse and foul mouth the apostates of Islam!!

Zyxius ji
You need to re-read hamidm sahib's post. He never said his wife was Imran's classmate. He said his wife was imran's sister's classmate. In any case, it is unbecoming on your part to target her.
Regards

Zyxius ji
You need to re-read hamidm sahib's post. He never said his wife was Imran's classmate. He said his wife was imran's sister's classmate. In any case, it is unbecoming on your part to target her.
Regards

Re: # 62

zyxius mian,

.... i agree with you completely - one more bombing and i might have to move into the cell next to yours in guantanamo ....... that's why we have to find and kill the jihadis over there - in iraq, afghanistan, waziristan, londonistan, swat and mandi bahauddin ........ otherwise we will have to fight them here and that is totally unacceptable - we don't want to disrupt the football and hockey season now that the lions and the redwings are both doing fairly well ........

Hamidm,

I hope your tax dollars do go towards expanding guantanamo because what dimwits like you fail to realize is that the plan includes quarantining all Muslim origin people....just like they did to the Japanese. You think you will be treated any differently because you are a sell-out?

What about how you are treated at the airports when you travel...and don't give me any crap about you not having faced any difficulties because we all know that all Muslim looking, and even Sikh people have are regularly harassed as part of the racial profiling.

You will probably say that this is the price you are willing to pay to be free...but thats because you are an idiot and I would love to see your ass locked up in Guantanamo once the war you have been cheerleading for picks up and moves into that eventuality where all Muslims...including sell outs like you, will be locked up.

Sell out cheerleaders like you would sell your mothers to be white Americans, but too bad for you that you have been born a sand nigger like the rest of us...the way elite America sees it, the mullahs are sand niggers with beards and you are a sand nigger without a beard....that is the extent of the difference they see between you and the Taliban.

You also fail to realize that the War on Terror is not a liberal war, it is a war being supported by the conservatives of the US and conservative US values are White Christian American values that outright reject you Hamidm. You don't even realize that the bullshit you are uttering us total nonsense because you keep saying "WE" when you refer to America but look behind you and see if they consider you part of the "WE". You are most certainly not and the only one who will lose out is you....even your better half may leave you for the comfort of Imran's success while you get thrown away by those same White Christian Americans that you were dying to kiss up to and be part of.

#57,#60 Posted by majumdar,

...what little I know ... Unless of course I am mistaken ...

These are quite accurate prefixes/suffixes to your contentions:)

That FM station is now mobile and constantly on the move. Parachinar conflict is as much sectarian as was Mazar-Sharif !

Tahmed sahib/Zee saheb,

Mahatma Fazlu is spreading his satyagrah thru FM radio if I am not mistaken. Now I am not really an expert either on military matters or on tech, but once you know the frequency of the broadcast, can't you trace back the source and take it out using smart bombs/missiles. Quite fishy that neither Bush or Mush are thinking about. Unless of course I am mistaken about the tech bit.

Regards

Zeemax: Ever seen the "reech ka show"? The unthinking bear puts up a fight, and his master collects the cash. Replace the bear with the maulvis and the master with Musharraf.

These religious types are either in cahoots with Musharraf (as in case of the JI who nabbed Imran Khan for him), or else his unwitting "reech". They have no hope of actually controlling Swat or any inch of land for any length of time without the wish of the government.

I know you dont agree on this - but in due course you will see what I mean.

Good night to all.

Zee sahib,

By the way what happened to the 250 soldiers who were released. Did they report back to duty? If so have they been accepted by the army or court martialled for defection?

Regards

Zee sahib,

From what little I know Parchinar is a Shia-Sunni sectarian conflict, not a havayoon success against the kanjaroons.

Regards

#55 Posted by majumdar,

Mirali which at least as per official stats was a success?

Arrey bhai kis dunya mein rehtey ho? Mirali was a success? But yes it may have been as per 'official stats'!

They had just air-raided the village bazaar of Ippi with F-16s and killed a lot of innocents. That incident triggered Swat's uprising as if on cue. It's just one blunder after another, isn't it? That opened another front and military had to retreat from Waziristan, get their 250 soldiers back, lick their wounds, and try to control Swat. Now, yet another front is opened by Mujahideen in Parachinar to further engage and encircle the army. Soon they won't know which bullets to return first!!!

And Bajaur/Mohmand Agency hasn't even started yet.

Zee sahib,

W'stan seems to be completely quiet. What's the matter? The havayoons have been completely beaten or is it that the kanjaroons have completely abandoned W'stan. But if latter is the case, why did they abandon the operations after Mirali which at least as per official stats was a success?

Regards

#53 Posted by majumdar,

Well, sporadic fighting is going on around Shangla in Malakand. There has been a troop buildup in Mingora, Swat (the only town still controlled by GOP) but haven't done anything yet. In the meantime Mullah Faqir's Bajaur militia is filtering into Swat to fight alongside Fazlullah. It should be a good show!

In the meantime musharraf complained to US in an interview yesterday that he can't even shut down a bloody mobile FM station so how do they expect him to win? He wants more military assistance ... LoL.

Zee sahib,

What's the latest score in Swat, Malakand and Bajaur? Will be awaiting your post in UP?

Regards

LadduJi,

The following poem was written with you especially in mind by my good friend Samina Malik:

http://www.lindasog.com/pics07/11/SaminaMalikpoems.jpg

hamidm2 you rival bush in the hatred for all things muslims.
perhaps you should join the WH as a janitor so you can give them these wise suggestions.. because apparently thats the calibre of the ppl who make US policy...
as for laddu's stance on ajmal qadri, what he quotes from him is extremely valid (maybe not to you but to any god fearding mulsim)

Re: # 49

laddu mian,

...... let me remind you that deoband is in india and you have my permission to drop up to five ten thousand bombs on this nest of snakes ..... that should kill all the mullahs and their offspring in a one mile radius .......

...... thank you for your cooperation ....

Latest on a top Paki mullah getting exposed by Ali Sina

http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/ajmalqadri.htm

Maulana Ajmal Qadri is a Senior religious scholar of the Deobandi school of Pakistan and the president of Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (The Society of Islamic Scholars). The Maulana is regarded as a pir (saint) by his followers and is one of the most influential clerics of Pakistan.

In 1999 Maulana Qadri issued a Fatwa saying lawmakers opposed to the Shariat Bill deserve to be killed.

He has also stated: "In our madrassas, we teach the Koranic jihad, This refuses to admit the supremacy of anyone, or any power, but Allah. We believe that the Muslim way is the supreme way, that the Islamic principle is best and that what the rest of the world does is not up to the mark."

If you want to comment on this debate please observer the etiquette and the respect that someone of Maulana's caliber deserves. Any inappropriate comment will be deleted and the offender may be banned.

Re: # 44

zyxius,

.... tahmed and i go back a long ways (on chowk) but we are poles apart ..... as a matter of fact, i used to put him in the same category as the mad mullahs and horrible hindoos until i found out that he was a harmless koranist (one who follows the koran and thinks that hadith and sunnah are camel shit) .......

...... he and i do agree on the fact that america is a shining city upon a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere ..... and we both get all teary eyed when the rockets red glare and the the bombs burst in air ....... but that's where our similarities end

happy thanksgiving

p.s. if you search the chowk archives you can get the recipe for the best turkey and fixins - i posted it many years ago .....

OK pakis - what's the status on swat now? You got your land back from Taliban yet?

Re: # 37
Zeemax

It’s that born again muslim imran khan he stays at her house when he’s in London , under the pretext of visiting his boys, who knows they might even share the same bed.

Zyxius: Could this feeling be the result of ConpiracyTheoritis (a dreadful disease caused by the middle east mosquito)? :-)

No, brother (or sister) of mine. I am not Hamidm. I waste enough time as it is on chowk with one nick!!

Why do I get the feeling that tahmed32 and Hamidm2 are the same pathetic little person with two personalities that can constantly provide reassurance to one another.

bulleye #35 Good effort. You get a C- for Hamidm Mimicry 101.

zeemax #37 I am not surprised that Jemima is committed to Pakistan even after her divorce. She knows that the average Pakistani is one of the most hospitable and generous people on earth - and deserves something better than a rogue general.

bubba #34 Interesting set of figures. No doubt a man who can wreck the Supreme Court of a country in order to cling to power is not above trying to corrupt the legislature as well. These are the wages of a sinful dictatorship that a nation pays!!

masadi: you claim that i (who has without any ifs and buts opposed the illegal musharraf regime) am backing "the BB/ Military junta". Musharaff loves individuals like you who try to confuse issues by making up convenient "facts" (e.g. the "BB/Military junta)!! That is all I can say.

Who says the war on terror is failing?
Any war takes time to succeed. Lets not forget, India is fighting against the terrorists for the last 18 years in Kashmir, Israel has been fighting terrorists since its birth. It always takes time to win a war, especially when
your enemy is a spineless, immoral one, who hassles killing innocents.

Besides the primary purpose of the war on terror, is to prevent terrorist attacks on USA soil, which it has till date. In fact on that measure, its been the most successful anti-terrorism drive. India or Israel cant claim the same.

Re: # 37

And desis subservience to gora continues....

Demo outside Pak Embassy in London - 18 Nov:

http://pkpolitics.com/2007/11/18/protest-at-london-embassy-18-november-0 7/

Jemima in response to question as to "why?":

"My children are Pakistani. I have never distanced myself from Pakistan."

Is something brewing up? She would be a nice change anyway!

#35 - LOL

...i do not know of any two groups who are worse military strategicians than american politicians and pakistani generals........

......american politicians are the only group in the world who can lose wars with militaris that have budgets of over $400 billion!!.......and pakistani generals are the only ones who have more success inside the country than outside...

.....so what in the world is going to happen when dick cheney puts his head together with pervez musharraf to fight a war against terrorism......

exactly what is happening now.....

......americans have got their butts kicked in iraq and now in afghanistan......they have now realized that instead of getting their own butts kicked, it is better to get pakistani soldiers' killed......

the dutch lose two soldiers in afghanistan and their public is ready to leave afghanistan.....the spaniards have one explosion in spain, and they move out of iraq....the canadians lose twenty soldiers, and their public wants out.....however, pakistanis keep dying on both sides and we are still fighting.....

earth to pakistan:....dick cheney ended up shooting his best friend while hunting.....and pakistanis want to trust him in fighting against millions of afghans......

let the americans fight their own wars.......they have pissed off too much of the world........no need for pakistan to get involved.....

For a Pakistani politican, are these numbers true?

Salary & Govt. concessions for a Member of NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (MNA):

Monthly Salary: Rs.120,000 to 200,000

Expense for Constitution per month: Rs.100 ,000

Office expenditure per month: Rs.140,000

Traveling concession (Rs.8 per km): Rs.48,000 (For a visit to Islamabad & return: 6000 km)

Daily BETA during Assembly meets: Rs.500

Charges for 1 class (A/C) in train: Free (For any number of times & All Over PAKISTAN)

Charges for Business Class in flights: Free for 40 trips / year (With wife or P.A.)

Rent for Govt. hostel any where: Free Electricity costs at home:

Free up to 50,000 units

Local phone call charges: Free up to 170,000 calls.

TOTAL expense for a MNA per year: Rs. 32,000,000 (approx.)

TOTAL expense for 5 years: Rs.160,000,000

As such for 534 MNAs, the expense for 5 years comes to Rs.85,440,000,000 (about 9000 crores).

#32, tahmed's response is typical of apologists for the corporate elite that lay off thousands of workers,and relocate plants all for the sake of extra profits and getting multi-million dollar salaries, and then blame it on "demand and supply" and competition. They make multi billion dollar profits get all kinds of welfare and deals from the government and then rob the little man of whatever little they pay him to start with even though he is responsible for the surplus they pocket....similar excuses were made by the oil companies for robbing us all and pocketing billions in record profits, why don't we see a comparative fall in German auto worker wages which are much higher than in the US, if competition from "automation" in Japan is the reason? Of course tahmed, being the peon of the Western elite will always be on the wrong side of the human equation, for the ultra rich as they suck the blood of the workers, he is similarly stabbing the Pakistani people in the back by trying to legitimize US propaganda of what is best for US ulterior motives (the BB/ Military junta) is best for the common man/woman in Pakistan. Listen to this immoral idiot at your own peril...

#27 Urstruly: Detroit worker's salary are going down in large part due to competition from Japan - and Japan is basically competing on the basis of factory automation and quality control, not low wages.

Funny that we have cheerleaders amongst Pakistanis who fall all over themselves to be more American and liberal than the most liberal American. The only people left who feel that the War on Terror is going well are the ones who still believe that Bush is the best President ever....and if you have been following the news you will know that he just beat Nixon as the most unpopular President ever in the history of Gallup. His ratings are even lower than those of OJ Simpson during his murder trial. Its a totally moot point and those left who still believe that its going well should call the President and offer their services cause he's desperately looking for people to stand with him.

For people like Hamidm who live in Detroit and married women who have experience the studliness of Imran Khan...you have greater issues to worry about than trying to win a debate with everyone on Chowk at the same time. Detroit is losing jobs like there is no tomorrow and the axe could drop on you any day. As for the other matter, just spend more time with her cause Chowkies are here today and gone tomorrow but a wife is forever....at least until Imran decides to relight an old flame.

Re: # 27 that is because manufacturing here was no longer competetive nor was it world class - recall Leyland and Rover....!

The quest is for people who can compete to create the wealth for the rest of the country to enjoy.....

majumdar writes "Can you back up #23 with any credible evidence. Thanks in advance."

Data on US avergae real wage and debts based on population by income and wealth is available widely on the net, regarding the manufacturing jobs created instead of those lost, weren't we talking of the standard of living in America of Americans? In the case of Mexico the average wage for the worker has been suppressed quite a bit after Nafta, the case of China regarding the factory workers isn't too much better either, read the trade report by Oxfam that documents many of these facts. There are many studies on this, but you had no clue about any but made a claim regardless, just like you do while defending the MAJ. It is not my job to do your homework

Re: # 25 The credible evidence is that that about 2-3 years ago the starting pay of an auto assembly line worker was $33-36/hr; currently it has been reduced to $13-17/hr. The workforce at supplier base is suffering even more where line worker is now making closely $10-14/hr.

Majumdar
The evidence in the UK is as the manufacturing jobs migrated, the new jobs that are created are in services sector, finance, banking, but vast majority as low wage burger flippers and security guards etc.

another thing on BB, further to #24: She is part of the solution for now to the extent that at this time she is shaking up Musharraf's disastrous dictatorship that needs to be ended and the Chief Justice restored. BB can then be removed in due course through the election process when the bigger problem of ending Musharraf's destruction of the pillars of Pakistani nationhood is solved.

Masadi sahib,

Can you back up #23 with any credible evidence. Thanks in advance.

And surely if manufacturing jobs have been destroyed in USA lots more must have been created in China, India and Vietnam and the likes. What about that?

Regards

Salman Ahmad of Janoon fame speaks the truth on Washington Post. Summary: Musharraf and BB are both playing games, and the real choice is between the Chief Justice and the rule of law vs. personal politics of Musharraf and BB.

PS: Welcome back zeemax. zeemax/hamidm: Perhaps you need to stop, in your different ways, taking mullahs so seriously. Note how the mullahs dont even figure in these choices - that is how important they are when you get serious about Pakistani issues!! They are mere bogeymen in musharraf's charade.

Excerpt:

A False Choice for Pakistan

By Salman Ahmad
Monday, November 19, 2007;

As Pakistan descends into political chaos, much attention has been given to two leaders competing for power -- the current dictator, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, and the media-savvy former prime minister, Benazir Bhutto. The White House appears to be backing Musharraf as its best bet in the "war on terror," while much of the world's media and Western liberal elite see Bhutto as a democratic savior for a country mired in Islamic fundamentalism.

Both fail to recognize the core problem plaguing Pakistani society: Without a strong and independent judiciary, Pakistan, a nuclear-armed state, will forever be at the mercy of dictators and power-hungry politicians. Lack of oversight and institutional accountability leads to coups, counter-coups and perpetual instability.

As an artist and social activist, I have worked with the governments of both Musharraf and Bhutto on peace initiatives and socially uplifting themes. I have been disillusioned by their lack of commitment to getting real work done; they appear to spend most of their time consolidating their power bases.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/18/AR2007111800 948.html

majumdar writes "There is no evidence to suggest that the average living standard of Americans has fallen"

Of course there is, look at the structure of the job market where temp agencies are now major employers, people have to work two to three jobs to make less pay then when manufacturing jobs relocated, not to mention the falling average wage for the bottom 50%, who are in debt, i.e. negative net worth...having lost over 80% of their wealth in the past two decades; however that is a debate not for this thread, neither do I want to revisit what has already been thoroughly on here

#19 Posted by masadi,

...why Zeemax wastes himself like this is beyond me.....

"Amr b'il maroof wa nahi'an al-munkir" !

Musharraf's visit to SA: He got a whopping from his papa the other day and now he's running to his mama for consolation. Like I said months back, he is going to sublease the mian's summer home in SA, if he is lucky enough to make it there before the US does what it did with the previous peon, the Zia ul Fcuk....Regarding the mullah not giving a damn about anything, when did they give a damn about anything other than halwa, they live in a different world and they fight their mythical battles all the time, the world passed them by before and will pass them by again, why Zeemax wastes himself like this is beyond me.....

#18 that by itself would not solve it but surely will start the process of softening them up....the army is not wiling to strongarm its way right now - since the strongarm tactics decision will be theirs. OTOH if BiBiunder a democratic dispensation orders them to do so the army will do so .....that is what I am saying...

That might stop the armymen giving up their ghost for a few more minutes...but what happens after that will depend on the GHQ and others....

Musharraf's visit to SA: He got a whopping from his papa the other day and now he's running to his mama for consolation. Like I said months back, he is going to sublease the mian's summer home in SA, if he is lucky enough to make it there before the US does what it did with the previous peon, the Zia ul Fcuk....Regarding the mullah not giving a damn about anything, when did they give a damn about anything other than halwa, they live in a different world and they fight their mythical battles all the time, the world passed them by before and will pass them by again, why Zeemax wastes himself like this is beyond me.....

Dash,

If dropping daisy cutters solved all problems, Yanks wud have won the war in Iraq and A'stan by now.

Regards

add-on:

nawaz sharif will come out smelling like roses either way ...... no?

No. No party will boycott elections and it will be a repeat of 2002. If Nawaz boycotts, he will be iso9lated and out of politics forever. There're plenty of soul-less mofos in that country who will still go along with musharraf ....

So musharraf is here to stay for the foreseeable future. I.e. till he is yanked out by who else but whom you detest!!

unless the army on its own, or the army under BiBi (which is the option I think preferred by the army itself and the US) drops tons of daisy-cutters or its equivalents.....the jawans will turn colour and become tribesmen....

BiBi has made the deal! Unless she gets cold feet, this is the way it might pan out

#10 Posted by hamidm2,

Sorry hamidm ... Nawaz may or may not agree (actually I think he won't even meet him), but this game is now beyond politics. The politicians can bicker and quarrel, emergency or no emergency, martial-law or no martial-law, Mullah Faqir said he doesn't give a damn and it makes no difference to them.

So I'm sorry, this is a full-fledged war now and you started it on 10th of July 2007 at Jamia Hafsa. Remember I predicted this? But I'm not gonna say "I told you so!" :)

Aslam bhai,

Thanks to the economic growth of India and China it means that more Injuns and Chinks can afford to fly. Which means more orders to Beoing and Airbus. Means more jobs. So it may not necesarily be a zero sum game between the Goras and the rest.

Regards

Re: # 9
Majumdar
It not as simple has that, you’ve only to look at the tussle between boeing and airbus to see where we are heading with India and china.

More later got to go

Shishapa,

There is no evidence to suggest that the average living standard of Americans has fallen. I guess many of those who have lost low end jobs would have migrated to better paying jobs.

Regards

Re: # 9

Array Majumdar bhai,\

Job agar nahi hoga, to living standard kaise uuncha hoga?

zeemax,

you and i will never agree on how to exterminate vermin, but we do agree on nawaz sharif ....... so here is a more important question: will he cut a deal with mushy in saudi arabia tomorrow?

....... i hope not - the man should take a stand and refuse to enter into any sort of negotiations .... if he does that he will force the other parties to take a stand also and the dictator will be gone in no time ........ even if the other fools decide to take part in the so-called elections, the lori-langri government won't last and they will loose all credibility with the people ...... nawaz sharif will come out smelling like roses either way ...... no?

Aslam bhai,

The economic growth of China, India and in due course other countries like Indonesia, Brazil and the rest will increase the relative economic power of these nations without adversely impacting the developed countries. For instance China's growth may have resulted in destruction of lots of low end jobs in USA but at the same time has resulted in cehaper goods which enables Americans to maintain a higher standard of living.

Regards

Many U.S citizens understand this security and boogy of terrorism just a ploy as pak keeps 'daraoing 'against India (Hindu)naive paki citizens to rule over them

Overall, 4,698 soldiers deserted this year


Army Desertion Rate Highest Since 1980
By LOLITA C. BALDOR – 2 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — Soldiers strained by six years at war are deserting their posts at the highest rate since 1980, with the number of Army deserters this year showing an 80 percent increase since the United States invaded Iraq in 2003.

While the totals are still far lower than they were during the Vietnam War, when the draft was in effect, they show a steady increase over the past four years and a 42 percent jump since last year.

"We're asking a lot of soldiers these days," said Roy Wallace, director of plans and resources for Army personnel. "They're humans. They have all sorts of issues back home and other places like that. So, I'm sure it has to do with the stress of being a soldier."

The Army defines a deserter as someone who has been absent without leave for longer than 30 days. The soldier is then discharged as a deserter.

According to the Army, about nine in every 1,000 soldiers deserted in fiscal year 2007, which ended Sept. 30, compared to nearly seven per 1,000 a year earlier. Overall, 4,698 soldiers deserted this year,
********************************************

compared to 3,301 last year.

The increase comes as the Army continues to bear the brunt of the war demands with many soldiers serving repeated, lengthy tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Military leaders — including Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey — have acknowledged that the Army has been stretched nearly to the breaking point by the combat. Efforts are under way to increase the size of the Army and Marine Corps to lessen the burden and give troops more time off between deployments.

"We have been concentrating on this," said Wallace. "The Army can't afford to throw away good people. We have got to work with those individuals and try to help them become good soldiers."

Still, he noted that "the military is not for everybody, not everybody can be a soldier." And those who want to leave the service will find a way to do it, he said.

While the Army does not have an up-to-date profile of deserters, more than 75 percent of them are soldiers in their first term of enlistment. And most are male.

Soldiers can sign on initially for two to six years. Wallace said he did not know whether deserters were more likely to be those who enlisted for a short or long tour.

At the same time, he said that even as desertions have increased, the Army has seen some overall success in keeping first-term soldiers in the service.

There are four main ways that soldiers can leave the Army before their first enlistment contract is up:

_They are determined unable to meet physical fitness requirements.

_They are found to be unable to adapt to the military.

_They say they are gay and are required to leave under the so-called "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

_They go AWOL.

According to Wallace, in the summer of 2005, more than 18 percent of the soldiers in their first six months of service left under one of those four provisions. In June 2007, that number had dropped to about 7 percent.

The decline, he said, is largely due to a drop in the number of soldiers who leave due to physical fitness or health reasons.

Army desertion rates have fluctuated since the Vietnam War — when they peaked at 5 percent. In the 1970s they hovered between 1 and 3 percent, which is up to three out of every 100 soldiers. Those rates plunged in the 1980s and early 1990s to between 2 and 3 out of every 1,000 soldiers.

Desertions began to creep up in the late 1990s into the turn of the century, when the U.S. conducted an air war in Kosovo and later sent peacekeeping troops there.

The numbers declined in 2003 and 2004, in the early years of the Iraq war, but then began to increase steadily.

In contrast, the Navy has seen a steady decline in deserters since 2001, going from 3,665 that year to 1,129 in 2007.

The Marine Corps, meanwhile, has seen the number of deserters stay fairly stable over that timeframe — with about 1,000 deserters a year. During 2003 and 2004 — the first two years of the Iraq war — the number of deserters fell to 877 and 744, respectively.

The Air Force can tout the fewest number of deserters — with no more than 56 bolting in each of the past five years. The low was in fiscal 2007, with just 16 deserters.

Despite the continued increase in Army desertions, however, an Associated Press examination of Pentagon figures earlier this year showed that the military does little to find those who bolt, and rarely prosecutes the ones they find. Some are allowed to simply return to their units, while most are given less-than-honorable discharges.

"My personal opinion is the only way to stop desertions is to change the climate ... how they are living and doing what they need to do," said Wallace, adding that good officers and more attention from Army leaders could "go a long way to stemming desertions."

Unlike those in the Vietnam era, deserters from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars may not find Canada a safe haven.

Just this week, the Supreme Court of Canada refused to hear the appeals of two Army deserters who sought refugee status to avoid the war in Iraq. The ruling left them without a legal basis to stay in Canada and dealt a blow to other Americans in similar circumstances.

The court, as is usual, did not provide a reason for the decision.

On the Net:
U.S. Army: http://www.us.army.mil
U.S. Navy: http://www.navy.mil
U.S. Air Force: http://www.af.mil
U.S. Marines: http://www.usmc.mil




http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hMo0Si7IM8WtlS57Bg2JhmmVamQgD8SV0VQ00

Re: # 5

zeemax,

.... i am afraid you are right ..... it seems that the paki fauj would rather make cereal, sugar and cement instead of doing what they are supposed to do .... it also seems that a lot of people have bought into this concept that these barbarians are 'our people' and that it is somehow not right to kill this vermin ..... they will be sorry ...... you have to kill the serpent in the egg (hence i advocate bombing madrassas) and if you have the serpent, you don't let him go ...... fools! ... they think they can buy peace - thats what the poor people of mecca and the jews of khyber thought!

...... and i wil put my money where my mouth is - i am willing to pay up to 5% extra in federal taxes to expand guantanamo ........

Slowly but surely this war on terror is being won, just as the cold war against communism was won, but I think the greatest threat against the west is china and India economically, slowly but surely economic power is shifting to the east. In the bigger scheme of things that will have a far reaching impact on western prosperity than a bunch bearded fundos.

hamidm2,

Is it true the kanjars are negotiating with, of all people, Mullah Sufi Muhammad, to come out of jail and save their sorry asses in Swat?

who says the war is failing ? .......the civilized world cannot afford to fail ... and it will fail only if we listen to whimy democrats and girly commies :

BAGHDAD, Nov. 18 — The American military said Sunday that the weekly number of attacks in Iraq had fallen to the lowest level since just before the February 2006 bombing of the Shiite shrine in Samarra, an event commonly used as a benchmark for the country’s worst spasm of bloodletting after the American invasion nearly five years ago.

Data released at a news conference in Baghdad showed that attacks had declined to the lowest level since January 2006. It is the third week in a row that attacks have been at this reduced level.

inshallah, we will win this war - we have to stay the course and rachet up the pressure on the hajooj and the mahjooj who are licking at the salt walls of civilization ..... hearts and minds can be won once their heads and legs have been broken .....

WASHINGTON, Nov. 18 — A new and classified American military proposal outlines an intensified effort to enlist tribal leaders in the frontier areas of Pakistan in the fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban, as part of a broader effort to bolster Pakistani forces against an expanding militancy, American military officials said.

If adopted, the proposal would join elements of a shift in strategy that would also be likely to expand the presence of American military trainers in Pakistan, directly finance a separate tribal paramilitary force that until now has proved largely ineffective and pay militias that agreed to fight Al Qaeda and foreign extremists, officials said. The United States now has only about 50 troops in Pakistan, a Pentagon spokesman said, a force that could grow by dozens under the new approach.

The proposal is modeled in part on a similar effort by American forces in Anbar Province in Iraq that has been hailed as a great success in fighting foreign insurgents there. But it raises the question of whether such partnerships, to be forged in this case by Pakistani troops backed by the United States, can be made without a significant American military presence in Pakistan. And it is unclear whether enough support can be found among the tribes, some of which are working with Pakistan's intelligence agency.

I should add:

"At the bottom of this insane system probably lies a sick ideology not very different from Hitlers Aryanism or the Zionist Chosen people bullshit....or even some twisted Christian Rapture fantasy." These ridiculous ideologies which actually are a REAL and MAJOR force in the US have married with the military/Industrial complex to create a special interest group that thrives on war and has the grass roots following of millions of misguided Americans who either expect the Rapture, believe that God gave Palestine to the Jews, that Muslims are Gog and Magog, and the capitalist ones among them benefit financially while the Zionists among them enjoy their benefits. Its a win win situation for these nut jobs and they've got a good racket going.

Personally I thought your article should have remained as an iLog since you totally missed the point as to why the War on Terror is failing. I'll simply repeat what I said in your iLog here:


These books are meant for the worker ants who are meant to "understand" the issue only enough to be able to carry out some function. Ask them for what they know and Donald Rumsfeld would respond with what is a typically cryptic and evasive answer, i.e. "known unknowns & unknown knowns, none of which can be known by those who don't already know...its national security"

Don't ya love that Orwellian double-triple-quadruple-multi-speak?

Similarly, none of information that they put out is actually what it is supposed to be...it all follows that same multi-speak pathology of theirs. At the bottom of this insane system probably lies a sick ideology not very different from Hitlers Aryanism or the Zionist Chosen people bullshit....or even some twisted Christian Rapture fantasy.