Resist, resist, resist: ‘The gift of a crisis’

I thought the problem has always been

Whose and which law.

krashid #194 the common ground is there for all Pakistanis. it is democracy and the rule of law. this is the common ground for citizens of all civilized countries, many far more diverse racially, ethnically, linguistically, culturally, and religiously than Pakistan (including our great next door democracy, India).

With nuclear weapons, Pakistan has a strategic defense from external attack. With the rule of law, Pakistan will have a strategic defense from internal attack from islamic extremists or others seeking to gain power through force.

People's army ??

The Allah's Mujahedeens!!

That is going to be a great progress for Pakistan!

TAhmed 32:
(Militaries have a vested interest in promoting conflict with neigbors).
Although I am not in favor of Military rule. And representative of people should take care of them. But considering the history of Pakistan or for that matter world, it is clear that if you are weak militarily, economically or otherwise that vaccum is filled by more powerful. I don't think Pakistan can survive without a strong defense.
It has been and is in the benefit of whole nation to unite. What common ground can be, we have to find yet.
Until that common ground is found and system is in place, under the present system, Nawaz Sharif will continue to call Army to get rid of Benazir and Vice versa.
Don't expect that a vaccum will be created by a weakened Army and Pakistan will stay.
I have no choice but to feed my tormentors, meaning Army.
Alternative would be People's Army, if you agree. No other choice.

majumdar #191: Your point is well made indeed. The Pakistan army has a job to do - restore its image in the eyes of the Pakistani people so they are assured that it is a national army, not a private army run by generals for their own interests.

krashid: the Pakistan army should be as strong as a duly elected government, after proper debate, thinks it needs to be. This matter should not be left to the generals, given the conflict of interest. Militaries have a vested interest in promoting conflict with neigbors - and the Pakistani generals have no doubt done that (as in Kargill, which was clearly done to sabotage peace summit between elected pms of India and Pakistan).

Rashid mian,

(That is why willingly or unwillingly we have to sustain a strong Army all along. )

But that "strong Army" job should be to protect the nation, not rule over it.

Regards

TAhmed I agree:
In my opinion no particular system is better.
It is the one view point and pragmatic leadership.
If you look at system in China it is Communist party which runs the system.
In India it is democratic setup.
While in Iran it is a mixture of democracy and theocracy.
For me it is futile to copy one system over another.
Basically it is the will of people.
We have not determined our path yet.
One thing is people continue to struggle for democracy. But also people continue to struggle for theocracy.
We need our system for the benefit of common man, in whatever way it comes. That should be the basic premise. Then we can talk how to achieve that.
But even before that we have to see the survival of Pakistan. That is why willingly or unwillingly we have to sustain a strong Army all along.

As an idolator I am only concerned about my own skin - I do not care what happens to the 5 time head bangers.

I am only concerned if Kiyani is going to ask Al Qaeda to threaten hindu idolators to accept Islam or die or not??

I just heard they have threatened Shankaracharya to kill him if he does not accept the cult of blood thirsty Allah!

Re: # 184

Finally, idols are not worshipped - Gods are worshipped!!

Re: # 184

Arjun,

Idols do not speak - men do that. Same with Gods-
Gods do not speak - men do that.

Idols are icons....symbols like the WORDS you see on your computer- words do not speak, men do that!!

#182 sonofkashmir: you are as much a jahil as the mqm followers who were harping about musharraf.

krashid: As long as we agree on the principle of free and fair elections, and respect for the basic rights of all individuals and the rule of law, then we are in agreement on the basics. Our disagreement can then shift to something more productive- i.e. who we would consider the best candidate for a particular job. Given the rule of law, the damage done by someone who proves to be a bad choice is quite limited.

What we need to end is this elitist view that we need a Napoleon to run the country. Otherwise, we will simply replace one law-breaking general with another one.

#183 Posted by laddu on November 28, 2007 3:39:14 am

As an idolator, why don't you ask whatever idol you worship?

As an idolator I am only concerned about one thing-

Does he believe that idolators should be killed as per Islam???

General Kiyani is a welcome change . The best thing about him is that he is from Punjab. 9 years of DEHLVI rule has destroyed the country . this will benefit sindhis alot. there will be no more rigging in sind, no more may 12s . General Kiyani must throw out all of Mush loyalits out of the army . punjab will back him . the forces should be withdrawn from baluchistan and dialogue should begin . in sind ppp , the true reprsentative should be allowed to attain supreme power . this will stop further defamation of punjab .

Re: # 179

Miyan Asadi,

It is important to know how the bigoted momeen neighbourer views you if you have to decide what level of defence you have to keep.

Till the time musharaff is considered as a munafiqoon by the mullahs he is a great choice for the idolators because then we can be sure about him being against the demonic shariah.

If kiyani is also viewed as a munafiqoon then he is a great neighbour for the idolators!!

Musharraf without the uniform is like the tiger without teeth or claws. It is only a matter of time before he is bumped off.

laddu writes "Can anyone enlighten us??"

IT is a near impossible task to enlighten bigots...

-

Zeemax mian, Musharraf wouldn't let anyone take his uniform off as well but he was forced to. With the uniform gone he is finished. The military will of course do the bidding of its US masters, the moment the politicians try to outsmart Kayani, he will act just like Musharraf did with the NS. Now is the moment to do something different to capitalize on the sentiments of the people, and their genuine grievances, to capitalize on the movements that Musharraf's bs has given to us as "fringe benefits". The NS should not think at the level of the president but should consider how to check the coas, and that is only possible through the people of Pakistan and their movements....otherwise impeach or not, the same circles will continue leading to dismemberment of the Western parts...

Is Kiyani going to renew the tap of terrorism and jehad against India or he is going to silently cut the roots of jehadis??

Can anyone enlighten us??

#174 Posted by masadi,

Bush has said that Nawaz Sharif cannot fight the war on terror, which gives the man NS that is added credibility

Yes, but support on WOT is the deciding factor in any political set-up in Pakistan, and Kayani is as big a WOT supporter as musharraf.

NS's condition to participate in elections i.e. pre-3rd Nov judiciary is unrealistic. How can musharraf allow that when he's taking oath tomorrow? (Though I don't know what oath and to whom since constitution is suspended) A pre- 3rd Nov judiciary will restore the presidential eligibility case plus scores of others AND a fresh treason case. Musharraf is certainly not going to let anyone hang him.

So the best course would be for all parties to contest these elections, bar the SC verdict on 'emergency' from getting parliamentary approval, and impeach musharraf with a 2/3rd majority.

All else will be just running around in circles for another 5 years.

Masadi sahib,

(The look on Kayani's face revealed his thoughts regarding Musharraf)

It is said that when Ayub handed over COAS post to Yahya he replied "Thank you, sir, and Khuda Hafiz". Is that true?

(which gives the man NS that is added credibility in my books....)

You may be happy to note that both Zee sahib and I are big time fans of NS.

Regards

On the chowk scene tahmed is busy red flagging masadi's posts, as if he is some kind of unappointed chowk police. He thinks it is worth the effort even with his hits and misses because to ban masadi and likeminded folk goes a long way for him in promoting his US worshipping BS here. Thus far he has been unsuccessful in convincing the chowk staff regarding banning me but sooner or later he might be successful......like rats running on the wheel, pathetic morons can never see the reason behind the "running", they can never confront facts with counter arguments, they can only try tricks at banning and censorship...

In related news Bush has said that Nawaz Sharif cannot fight the war on terror, which gives the man NS that is added credibility in my books....

The "fat lady" has sung apparently, and the dictator has agreed to take off his uniform in private, after the final warning conveyed by Negroponte. He has saved his life but lost his power. The look on Kayani's face revealed his thoughts regarding Musharraf, he was saying (in his heart), "compared to me, you are dog sh** now". In the murky waters of the Pakistan political scene, without the uniform, Musharraf is like a clueless lost tourist. He will be got rid of soon enough. Like his predecessors he has fleeced the country moreso than any civilian prime minister could imagine. They do it on a personal level, the military does it on an institutional and country wide level as well as the personal level. Dumb fcuks with the intellect of swines usurp status reserved for people's leaders and make decisions that only people of intellect are justified in making, and the results of this we see in the country going to the dogs.

Smell the coffee #162
I don't think nuke decision was bad. It was good. (Although they made lot of money out of this also. Don't ask me how).
-First of all Nawaz Sharif ruled through the Governor on Sind during most of his second stint.
-His cabinet involved people from his neighbour and close aquaintance.
- Usually since Pakistan is a Federation there is unwritten understanding that President and Prime minister will be from different provinces. While he had president, prime minister and Army Chief in waiting not only close aquaintance but also from same province.
There was significant problem which was attacking the federation of Pakistan.
- Taleban were so strong in NWFP that it was predicted that not IF but WHEN they will takeover Pakistan.
- They attacked on another pillar of democracy, Supreme Court and Created an alternative supreme court in Baluchistan.
- They stopped the newsreel of Jang Newspaper and forced it to not Publish. (As it was exposing corruption)
- And last but not least economy was in shambles and Stock index was 1300 Rupees. Pakistan was nearing default, and there was not enough money to even repay the debt. Pakistan's credit rating was bad and on corruption was almost at the top of most corrupt countries.

tahmed 32:
I agree with the logic and principle.
So far there is no party and no part of Pakistan where any party can claim that this part belong to this or that party.
As I have repeatedly mentioned, even during the initial days of Pervez Musharraf, when he was trying to erect a local bodies. I at that time was convinced that even local bodies election should be held on party basis.
I also think inspite of differences with one or another party that let the parties who have trust of people serve, at the local and provincial level.
At the national level, the situation and Pakistan,s position is so critical that it needs to be run by highly professional people ( and it does not mean Army). We cannot have geniuses like Bhutto all the time, but if we have strong institutions, it will be better.
As far as MQM taking sides with Pervez Musharraf during visit of Chief Justice, I may agree with you . But at the same time you should realize MQM was allied with the Government both at central and provincial level, and it is no surprise to me. In the best possible scenario, they would have remained neutral.
As far as Dal Roti, I think Karachi economy contributes to overall Pakistan economy, as well as with good economy people migrate from other parts and it releases some pressure. A calm Karachi is in the interest of Pakistan.
And I am pretty sure that MQM has some understanding and not in this fiasco but in other situations also Karachi has been calm.

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Musharraf to quit as Army Chief tomorrow

Islamabad (PTI): Bowing to intense domestic and global pressure, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf is finally set to doff uniform on wednesday after a nine-year reign as Army Chief and hand over charge to his trusted deputy and former ISI chief Gen Ashfaq Pervez Kiyani before being sworn in as a civilian ruler for a second term on Thursday.
----------------------------

Remember: it ain't over until the fat lady sings, and she hasn't sung yet.....

Kamath writes "Nothing can be changed except Allah's will. and He has gone to sleep."

Leave Allah out of it you idiot. Allah's will is deferred to a determined time because this world is not the end all and be all, it is transitory. Don't try to dictate what Allah's will should be or be so pompous as to demand that he "hurry up", especially given your dimwitted mentality. India is in much greater mess than Pakistan if you ask me, you just don't hear about it that much because the power state does not consider it its playing field at this time...

To be honest with you other readers of Chowk, let me express my views about Pakistan.

I don't wish to engage in a sort of enjoying from somebody else's misery. This mess and misery has been created by influential segments of the Pakistani society. Army, corrupt politicians,religious fanatics and collaborators in civil service and even in academia.

This political Tamasha has been going for a long time. So I have decided to watch on TV, read and reflect along with my good cup of tea.

Let the events take course on their own. Nothing can be changed except Allah's will. and He has gone to sleep.

Kamath

in #164, first line second para where it says "While no doubt other parties have allied at one time or another with mqm", it should instead read:
"While no doubt some of the other parties have allied at one time or another with the musharraf government".

krashid: Karachi is a Pakistani city, not the property of MQM. So, I am puzzled by your statement "let it run this part of Pakistan. Previous attempt at keeping it out failed. At least it keeps our Daal Roti running and keep the calm, where it is needed most." MQM is not the mafia that can "run this part of Pakistan". The whole world earns its "daal roti" through economic activity, not through the graces of some outfit like mqm: why do you need mqm to keep your "daal roti running"?

While no doubt other parties have allied at one time or another with mqm - mqm is unique in having come out with guns to attack peaceful demonstrators who had come out in support of the Chief Justice. MQM has not expressed any regrets for that, let alone handed over those responsible for the murders of these martyrs to the Pakistani freedom struggle. So, I beg to differ with your view that mqm is merely another political party. But that is just my humble opinion.

Given the right to express themselves, and given free and fair elections (including the right of other parties to campaign in Karachi without fear of ghoonda attacks from mqm), the people of Pakistan will no doubt prove in the ballot boxes that the only ones mqm and its followers are fooling are themselves.

#160 Posted by laddu,

Turn Pakistan into a secular state ... Roll back the impending Talibanisation. !!!

Laddu Bhai,

And inhabited by whom? Hindus? Budhists?

#159 Posted by krashid1961,

(And you remember what mess Nawaz Sharif created during his 2nd stint when Pakistan was nearing collapse)

krashid saheb, I suppose you're referring to the nuke tests. If it's anything else, kindly correct me.

Was there a choice over the nuke tests and the freezing of Foreign Ccy accounts?

Regards

#148 Posted by masadi on November 26, 2007 4:39:48 pm


To quote you..


in 148, read "theft (the petty corruption)"

as "I think people are stupid and so I can get away with BS"

Turn Pakistan into a secular state if it wants to survive in the future!!!

Roll back the impending Talibanisation. NS was the man responsible for the mullahs to come to power. Only by making Pakistani constitution secular and omitting references to "Islamic principles" there is a future for Pakistan to survive in the modern times.

154 TAhmed:
I may agree with you somewhat.
The problem is there is no connection between Pervez Musharraf Coup detat and MQM.
MQM was not even allowed to contest the first election held under Pervez Musharraf.
It was marriage of convenience later on.
MQM has been part of alliances even before 1999 coup of Musharraf. It has allied itself with people's party and Muslim league (N) at one time or another.
Although I want to see the same old Karachi of 60's and 70's, and things have so much changed that it is difficult to live there (although people are still living and population is expanding).
There are couple of positive points. One thing is all the leadership is from middle class and has support of middle class. 2nd thing is religious harmony. 3rd thing is economic activity. Definitely crime rate is high, but has been high even when Jamat-e-Islami was ruling under Mayor Nematullah, and nobody is happy with that.
What I personally think is since MQM has already abandoned its slogan of Mohajir. It has influence and vote bank (so called silent majority) let it run this part of Pakistan. Previous attempt at keeping it out failed. At least it keeps our Daal Roti running and keep the calm, where it is needed most.
Which is the party of Pervez Musharraf you know and we know. Musharraf has been supported by MMA, and other parties at one time or another also.
What you want at the provincial level is people taking care of their constituency.
What you want at the center level is people taking care of defence, foreign policy etc. (And you remember what mess Nawaz Sharif created during his 2nd stint when Pakistan was nearing collapse)
I don,t think in the current geopolitical and international level things were bad either.
I will blame it on Musharraf altogether for the mess he created for nothing during his last year in office.

Re: # 156

Cliftonbridge:

By the other side, I meant the solution side. The analysis is well put forward. The search for solution is ever more elusive, especially in Pakistan it seems to me.

Look all you bojos (as zang would say):
Democracy needs money for elections and for paying off potential rivals. When such a market does not exist, and when stoooopid bojos write a constitition, such TRADE is termed corroption. This has very well been explained by AHMEDMADANI before. But except for hamidm2 none of you idiots understand this. So, forger CORRUPTION to start with, use the matiriel between your two ears and get a bit realistic. I am bloody fed up... the only guy who understands me is Zee. So a big F@##k Y6U to all chowkies ...... ;;) peat ... malted without a blend!!!!

re #131

thanks anil. what did you mean the other side ?

#152 krashid: nice poetry. and sad. But perhaps this latest experience with dictatorship, and particularly the events of the past 2-3 years, will teach our politicians something they did not understand before: the importance of the rule of law. Without which, the man with the most guns will enslave the entire nation.

Then the musharraf habas may indeed be replaced not by a loo but by a mausam-e-bahar.

#153 krashid: This was a peaceful demonstration. No amount of ridiculing the chief justice as "droopy eyed", no amount of rationalizing, can justify the murderous attacks on peaceful demonstrators or justify the blatantly illegal and increasingly arrogant and oppressive rule of musharraf.

It is Musharraf's abuse of human rights of Pakistanis that is the most abominable of his deeds. Have you seen the movie "Missing in Pakistan"? If not, I suggest you google on video on these words "Missing in Pakistan" and see it. This was suppressed by Musharraf government in Pakistan, but has found its way to the internet.

It was such cases of "disappeared persons" that the CJ demanded should be accounted for by the musharraf government that led to his confrontation of the "droopy eyed" CJ.

btw: I lived in karachi before there was mqm and before you were born perhaps. So, rest assured I am well aware of the manner in which mqm and its smelly ethnic politics turned karachi from a cosmopolitan city into a cesspool of ethnic hatreds and violence.

TAhmed32
CJ was informed already on May 12 by Sind administration not to create law and order situation. (It is more laughable that it was the Chief Justice who was trying to create Law and order situation).
Although the people supported it. But it is the policy of MQM as far as I understand not to make Karachi a battleground for everyone, while rest of the country keeps a blind eye.
If you remember that in 1999 the economy was at its worst. And then it was decided that Karachi has bled a lot already, so to reinvigorate the economy of country, let it play its role which it has played since inception of Pakistan. And it was not only this corrupt, droopy eyed (I like hamidM) chief justice fiasco, but whether it was Shia Sunni problem or any other problem MQM has worked hard to keep the situation in control. Everyone is reaping the benefit of a better economy.
I don't know if you have lived in Karachi or not. If not you will have difficulty in understanding what I am saying.

#126
I don't know if we will be regretting five years down the road or more happy.
As Mao said to youth. This world is ours as well as yours, but in the last analysis it is yours.
Let the current generation take their destiny.
As Faraz said.
Is Qadr Habs He ke log Lu Ki Dua Mangte Hain.
"There is so much suffocation that people ask for even "LOO" (hot air).

The worst of all the corrupt systems was the zimmidari system where zimmis had to please the momeen rulers with gifts of their women out of fear!!

Re: # 149 Nasah
wah wah!
mukarrar ...

General Musharraf will (tentatively) be taking off his commando camouflage clothes completely on Wednesday this week -- a process that started last Saturday.

sarak tee jai hai vardee niqaab ahista ahista
kay jaisay dooba jai Aftab ahista ahista

huay jub aath saloN kay to phir say kur liya suada
kay hoNgay paanch saaloN tuk kabbab ahista ahista

ahista...ahista

hamid writes "i am talking about the doodh wala with two cows who mixes water to milk...."

Just one case of corporate corruption, take Enron for example, and plenty of it is found in the US regarding entire sectors of industry, take the Savings and Loan BS of the 1980s, would be greater as "corruption" than all the water skimmed milk of the doodh wala. You deliberately want to ignore that and concentrate on the little man who is merely operating in a global structure in which money makers have little competition for status and repute, and in a country, thanks to its enslaved nature, where corruption ensures that you get ahead from those that are honest and are "punished for every good deed".

Regarding your question about Wilson (who is known quite well to me, got my typhoid shots there every year when I was a kid) and not bakr, is because of the inferiority complex that desis suffer from where they consider everything Western to be god-like and everything desi to be corrupt. On the flip side, do you know why theft (the petty corruption) is so common in the US as well so that stores have to write off millions every year and install expensive equipment and hire a full staff just to guard against that? Why do you so conveniently forget such things about US society?

Our corruption is the direct consequence and legacy of the white man's colonization and governance methodology, not to mention how meticulously the colonials robbed us blind, a kind of higher corruption that goes unnoticed by peons of the West like yourself and your side kick tahmed...

A Royal whack on the swollen head and look what happenend to Big Mouth Mush -- he stays in a corner shivering like a "wet Cat" with lock jaw -- while Nawaz the lil mouse roars all over the place.

Look Ma -- no bombing!

Don't you ever touch that mouse again -- the Great Dane told the pussy cat while kicking him out of the Riyad airport.

hamidm: or maybe General "Napoleon" Musharraf will set an example of personal integrity that will inspire all cheaters to become er..ahem.."honest"...LIKE HIM??

(..rolling on the floor with more laughter)

hamidm: You think "Chief Justice" (ha! ha!) Dangar will rubber stamp all cheating out of Pakistan?

(excuse me while I roll around laughing some more on the floor).

hamidm: So, you are saying that because people cheat in Pakistan ergo we should have military rule. Hmmmmmm...that makes a lot of sense (excuse me while I roll around the floor laughing). :-)

hamidm: So, you are saying that because people cheat in Pakistan ergo we should have military rule. Hmmmmmm...that makes a lot of sense (excuse me while I roll around the floor laughing).

Re: # 140 Posted by Urstruly on November 26, 2007 12:54:08 pm

[But in fact it all starts from the top -from the illegitimate harami at the very top.]

Way you go, sir. You got it right. This illegitimate harami can be a mullah or his clean shaven english speaking buddy. Right?

Imran Khan or Qazi Hussain? Both of these types are corrupt to the core?

Re: # 139 Posted by hamidm2 on November 26, 2007 12:41:01 pm
[.... do you know why most people go all the way to 'wilson' or 'd. watson' to buy their medicines in rawalpindi instead of buying them from bakr or zaid ?]

Because, wilson can cheat with his "toota phouta" english accent or with their pants on, whereas bakr or zaid will cheat speaking urdu in a shalwar/kamees. However, both types would have ugly teeth that might require "Binaca" or "miswaak".

Don't you agree?

Re: # 139

"because everyone else is doing it ...... "

This sentence is not only symptom but cure to all our ills as well. It is not that 'everyone else does it..." but it is the one at the top who does it and that encourages everyone below him to do it as well. When this happens, it appears that every person- from a choorah to the president - has only one purpose in life i.e. to fukk this country. But in fact it all starts from the top -from the illegitimate harami at the very top.

Re: # 138

urstruly mian,

........ i am not talking about the corruption and illegitimacy in the state appratus, i am talking about the doodh wala with two cows who mixes water to milk and the fifth grader who thinks it is okay to cheat on his islamiyat test because everyone else is doing it ......

.... do you know why most people go all the way to 'wilson' or 'd. watson' to buy their medicines in rawalpindi instead of buying them from bakr or zaid ?

Re: # 132

""is muluk wich peyo asli nahin milda,..."

"yeh quom danday ki zubaan hi samajhti hay"

Unfortunately a good portion of our society buys this notion and the corrupt, oppressive, pro-western class spares no effort to enforce it. The corruption and illegitimacy in the state appratus gives them an overwhelming upper hand over to the people. Corruption is used to control masses.

We are better than this. We desrve better than this. We can do better than this. We are not 'dangars' that need a danda to control. We are human beings; we have self respect. All we need to do is to identify haramis among us. They must be socially boycotted just like this dictator has lost any modcum of legitimacy. Now no matter he does cannot make things right. I want everyone of his co-haramis treated the same. There faces must be blackened with spray paint. Or it must be made impossible for them to go out in public. I am glad that that stage has finally come.

tahmed writes "put yourself in the chappals of those girls' parents (not enough food to go around, let alone money for education, and along comes this saintly man promising them free food and lodging and education) and perhaps you will see where i am coming from on this. "

It is not as simple as this "Fox News" style fairy tale by this peon of the West who thinks he has done some ground breaking research on suicide bombings and what not. Poverty is not the causation factor in this, maybe just a catalyst, the factor is a social system that is geared to serve externals to the neglect of its people forcing adjustments and private solutions to deal with the symptoms. That "system" of oppression is maintained in Third World countries, Pakistan included by neo-colonization of the world, or slavery of countries to the US where the slave is literally slayed if he does not serve his "master"- Iraq is one of the cases in point. Being the peon of the West that he is, he will deliberately mask the roots of the problem. The US had the greatest role to play, together with the Saudis in setting up the structure of the militant madressa, with material, motivational and military support (MMM), "pious men" that fished for souls for these medressas were part of the MMM and not seperate as tahmed is presenting them to be to save face for his barbarian masters, the US elite...

dash_dot writes "the army will come out of it fine and sol will the geographic limits of pakistan."

The army has not come out of it "fine" and is not going to. The Americans aren't as dumb as you sound. With every successive martial law, this military has lost its authority with the people and now, it is open hatred for it, to that is the added problems of peons getting out of line and all kinds of adjustments with transitory democracy- all this is a pain in the a$$ of the US, that especially now drunk on power, thinks it can handle things more directly through the barrel of its gun. Nobody doubts that factions of this elite want a strike on Iran, only idiots would call speculating on the scenario (iven happenings in the greater middle east, last year's lebanon war, as well as the strike on Syria- a testing of the waters)'cukoo land'. Regarding thinking, I do more of it in a day than you have in your entire lifetime......

Re: # 132 Posted by hamidm2 on November 26, 2007 10:41:50 am

{.... "is muluk wich peyo asli nahin milda, tusi puch raey o coolant asli aye!" (in this country you can't even find a real father and you are asking me if the coolant is genuine!) }

So, did you finally get "asli" whatever? You see, urstruly, is hoping to get some "asli" virgins?

Re: # 124 dash_dot:
"So whatever the conclusion, leave it to us men. We're used to fighting and dying".

Ah, you mean like those 93,000 in 1971?

There is a huge difference between being a Paki Punjabi and being a man.

Re: # 119 GT
"My point is that this huge constituency is still to be brought to Pakistan's political field. But who will do it. Will it be a more Mature Imran Khan?".

There are times when I feel for the great Khan, but his "maturing" could be a very long time coming.

"kaun jItA hae terI zulf ke sar hOnay tak?"

Today he tore up his nomination papers. That was a very impulsive and immature act whereby he has painted himself, and his supporters, in an impossible corner. Personally I agree with the entire oppositon bycotting the elections until Nov'2/07 is restored, but his action today is unfathomable. Why didn't he file the papers as the rest of the opposition nominees did? He could have always withdrawn them later when necessary.

Now I am not one of his primary supporters, but don't you think he let them down with his childish tantrum? Even the Prophet(SAW) let the insult on his personal stature go in the greater interest of his followers.

Our Khan is in need of some good advisors. Pashtunwali alone ain't gonna cut it.

everyone is a harami?

Re: # 126

urstruly,

... what's the matter with you?....... for the longest time i thought you were a mardoodi and a card-carrying member of the jamaat-i-islami ...... now you are disowning them ...... i hope you are not a wild-eyed jihadi and a follower of hazrat osama bin laden (pbuh) ..... let me tell you there is no future in living in caves and getting bombed just so you can get a virgin in heaven ....... there are no guarantees and you might be disappointed ........

....... and please stop calling nawaz sharif, benazir, mullah fazloo, and everyone else a harami even though you might not be far off the mark ....... many years ago i bought engine coolant at a auto parts store in lalkurti, pindi ..... i asked the man to give me the best available and he handed me three sealed cans labelled in japanese saying, " this is what i use in my own car"..... i asked the man if it was 'asli' .... something got to him, maybe it was the july heat, but the man snapped back, "is muluk wich peyo asli nahin milda, tusi puch raey o coolant asli aye!" (in this country you can't even find a real father and you are asking me if the coolant is genuine!)

Re: # 121

Cliftonbridge:

You are quite a revolutionary in your thinking. What is the other side of your thoughts? Love to read those too.

tahmed why do you make excuses for everyone but Mush. How is he not the victim? All he wants to do is love you and instead you support a bunch of wild theives and bandits aiming for his uniform, undies and lord knows what else :)

Muslim men can thank their own 'emancipation" in no small part to Hazrta Khatijah. Why should that role suddenly be no good for muslim women 13 centuries later? No your view point is not based on OUR religion but something more primitive.
In the immortal words of VW "men think women need no greater destiny than to be looking glasses where men can see their own image.... 5 times magnified"

mr. kulharee: right you are that nuns dont wield jamia hafsa style sticks (except in convent schools). but my point was - these women were as much victims as the women they kidnappned or the shopkeepers whose property they destroyed. put yourself in the chappals of those girls' parents (not enough food to go around, let alone money for education, and along comes this saintly man promising them free food and lodging and education) and perhaps you will see where i am coming from on this.

hamidm #123 You think that a man who gave up his job as Chief Justice (twice!!) and risked his life for a principle will jump at the opportunity to be ambassador to Belize (or any other country)?

You need to cross-check your assumptions (which reflect the same overcyncial contempt for Pakistanis that has gotten "I am Lincoln-Napoleon)" Mush in trouble with reality) with reality sometimes. Otherwise, you become just another kind of an ideologue.

Re: # 84 Krashid

"There is no najaez Aulad of east India company. Prowestern elite do not understand your perspective."

So now if you scroll back the posts below you will see that there is not only tacit but also open approval of the massacre of school children among the people of a certain mindset.

Like it or not, like I said, the existential schism in our society not only exists but it is widening everyday. What I refer to as "corrupt ruling eilte" and "East India Company ki naajaiz aulaad" is not a class of people defined by their social or financial status but it is a mindset. I always quote the example of Jalianwala bagh tragedy where hundereds of unarmed people were massacred in a political rally and 95% of those who fired the machine guns on them were none other but the same people who were being massacred. Those soldiers were mindlessly murdering their fellow brethern to please their masters without any remorse or second thought. Same thing was repeated when Khaksaars were massacred in Lahore in 1940. So what is that mindset that turns one against ones own fellow brethern. It is the mindset that was drilled into some of us at genetic level by East India Company. That is the raeson you see no remorse on genocide in East Pakistan or the massacre of school children by many among us. There is no second thought why army of this country is bombing its own citizens using airforce and why political leadrs openly invite enemies to attack our territories and kill our own fellow citizens. I mean what kind of low life one has to be to stoop that low?

You asked me why I call them harami? Look at what NS just did. He lands his plane and first thing he does is legitimizes the military dictatorship by submitting his election petition. See, this class will do anything to preserve and strengthen the status quo of corruption, indignity, and vassalage. They just change faces from time to time. As I said, it is a mindset and not a social class in the commie sense of the word; this social class has members from all walks of life - moulvis, foujis, bureaucrats, feudals, industrialsits, and politicians. Similarly, those who are fighting for the freedom of our country have a differnt mindest- and among them are moulvis, foujis, bureaucrats, feudals, industrialsits, and politicians. Its the mindset that has created an unbridgeable schism in the society. The former group has repressed the country with their corruption too long. They have brought the country at the brink of being a failed state. they have corrupted and destroyed every single institution in this country. A time is finally upon us that their corruption and heartlessness is about to destroy us all. This is the law of nature. The corrupt, weak, and inefficient can never fight the fight of the survival of the fittest. They will be eliminated.

This is in today’s Dawn. This is your Practical Islam not the theoretical kind that the terrorist sympathizers here talk about. This is what Islam teaches on how to treat pregnant women.. poor women are screwed twice.

Militants in Waziristan set foodgrain on fire

“WANA, Nov 25: Local Taliban militants seized and burned thousands of kilogrammes of food destined for pregnant women in a tribal area of Pakistan, officials said on Sunday.

The food, mainly lentils and cooking oil, was taken from a hospital in the district of South Waziristan and had been supplied by the aid charity Save the Children to feed pregnant women suffering from malnutrition.

A Taliban activist said they were destroyed because “foreign NGOs want to harm our future generations.” People in the deeply conservative tribal areas often oppose the presence of Western-funded non-governmental organisations on religious and cultural grounds.

An administration official, Tariq Salim, blamed health ministry officials for “mishandling” the situation, adding “this would not have happened had they consulted us before starting the distribution directly to the women.”—AFP

Re: # 123

hamidm2: geo will be back on air and the civil society aunties will be back at the beauty parlor .......



you mean, with zeemax doing what he is best at doing.....like the following ....you sure do know your zeemaxes from your zeeminis.....



Post by zeemax on Nov 26, 2007 8:04:19 am
I just posted this on your other thread.

Believe me, women are worse than dogs.

That's not what folks of my kind want them to be. Women are mothers, and sisters and wives.

Forgive me if that sounds condescending, but it isn't. Only Islam restores status of women. Otherwise you're just sex objects or decoration pieces or pieces of furniture.

That's the truth.

Ok ZK and cliftonbridge,

I will make a few statements, and you can hold me on those forever:

1) I am an Islamist, Al-hamdu-Lillah, and I stick to that.

2) Women are our mothers and our sisters and our wives, and we will not allow anyone to sell them or to rent them out. They're physically weak so they cannot fight, but we will see no one touches them.

3) Muslim women are our responsibility. If they apostate and go it alone, it is upto them. Perhaps they could survive on their own and better than being just 'Muslims', but then again perhaps they won't.

It's tough just to pay elec bills, what to talk about war.

So whatever the conclusion, leave it to us men. We're used to fighting and dying. You live longer in any case.

Allow us to get killed for you

tahmed,

"who in his right mind would vote for a self-proclaimed criminal ....... "


nonsense!

....... we are talking about pakis here - not normal people ! ......... i am afraid you have been away too long and are completely out of touch with the reality of pakistan and pakistanis .... unfortunately, i haven't been able to break away and am still painfully aware that pakistanis are not 'normal' people - we are a fickle and ignorant bunch of yahoos who are easily swayed by charlatans whether they come from across town (ghq), or dubai, or saudi arabia .......

...... today half the people in pakistan talk fondly about ayub khan, the man who institutionalized military rule ...... and most of us are eager to forgive bhutto for his role in the bangladesh debacle ....... if bb and ns pick up where they left off, who knows, in a few years musharraf might start to look pretty darn good ...

...... so please give up your protest ..... there is a good chance that your droopy eyed cj will get a cushy job in the new administration - he might even end up as the ambassador to belize ........ geo will be back on air and the civil society aunties will be back at the beauty parlor .......


excelsior !

#121 Posted by cliftonbridge:

Clifton,
That post was almost violent :) Your point about politico religios mainstream party is true. However, the 'group' I talk about is, I believe, apolitical by and large. Honest down to earth types in the 'mohollah', respected by most, who arbitrate 'small' local conflicts and dispense realistic and common sensical advice. You know what I mean? These guys may 'vote' but curse all political parties and types, actually the better of the lot prefer to remain ignorant. You get my drift ...

GT there is no dearth of politico religous main stream parties in pakistan. The militant taliban have capitalised on not plain old religous fundos but tribal seperatists and jungle grown random miscreants. Who have a vague sense of islamic principles but an unerring knack for regressive, misogynist, self defeating, violence against other poor beggars like themselves.

These himbo's from planet of the apes can not even provide themselves food and will always be bitch slapped by any other civilization. Since we have some latent beggar worshippers in our society and governance we are unable to provide these freaks with the ass kicking they sorely deserve. Specially since we are sucking on one plump saudi teat and the beggars are hanging off the other (which according to the milk fatwah makes us mehram or something like that).

T Saab (118)..do you know of any case where Nuns kidnapped citizens or took the law into their own hands? Do you live in Lala land? Those biatches were wielding sticks and going on rampage to ask for video shops to be closed, and so on, even before they were sent to hell. Kidnapping the people was only a last act in a long line of bulcrap that people were putting up with. Enough should be enough some time, and it was good they that stupid place is shut for ever to produce more garbage in an already filthy place.

Whether or not (and I think not), the movement for democracy in Pakistan stops tomorrow, it is already a success. Lawyers, journalists and students have come out openly against the dictator. They did so when the man was still powerful. They helped weaken the dictatorship of the army and hopefully the army will not recover ground in the future. New leaders have also emerged from the ranks of the lawyers. Their gain in their respective political parties is a certainty in the comming days. The growth of Imran Khan as a leader will definitely help him access support from a wider political base within the next five years or so. So yes the movement is a success.

There are two channels to get to the masses in our part of the world: students and those people at the local level who bring about compromises outside the formal jurisdiction of the state. Both these channels are jealously gaurded by despotic political/religious parties. Imran Khan scratched the surface of the cocoon which covers students in Pakistan. Hopefully that scratch will help crack the cocoon in the future. But a lot more needs to be done.

As far as the second group of people are concerned, it is my belief that this section is largely dominated by people who are basically religious and take guidance from religion (they should not be confused with fundamentalists). My view is that this section is largely apolitical, anti-violence (and there is a very important reason for this - it being that this group is into resolving disputes) and perhaps pay lip service to the religious parties for the lack of a better alternative. It had been my belief that this group had been tapped by what I termed the LMP (Lal Masjid party). It seems to me now that I was wrong. This is because, the visible part of the LMP is colluding with the Taliban.

There have been some here on chowk who have put up the Taliban as one of the purer faces of Islam. I leave it for those who understand Islam much better than I do to debate whether or not this is true. But my reading of Taliban puts them at par with Marxist fanatics, justifying barbaric norms in the pursuit of romantic non-feasible ideals. Not all is idealistic. They very well know which side of the bread is buttered. They, for example, are willing to burn food and medicine donated for women and children from the West ... unless of course it is channeled through them. We know of a lot of non-Islamists in Africa, Cambodia etc. who do the same.

But that was not my point. My point is that this huge constituency is still to be brought to Pakistan's political field. But who will do it. Will it be a more Mature Imran Khan?

hamidm: i already explained why i consider the students of lal masjid to be victims of the maulvis and their puppet-master musharraf.

you are welcome to keep calling them terrorists - but it is meaningless to call them that. sure the hafisa women broke the law when they kidnapped women for the benefit of lal masjid maulvis - but to call them terrorists is as much a stretch as to call christian nuns terrorists.

hamidm #115: you are beginning to sound more and more like baghdad bob. who in his right mind would vote for a self-proclaimed criminal (which is what musharraf is when he proudly announced to the world press that November 3 was the "first time" he had broken the law!!).

mqm sided with the dictatorship and committed murder on May 12, remember? you may forget this betrayal, but the rest of Pakistan will not forget so soon.

zeemax,

.... stop repeating a lie in the hope that it will become the truth .... ... and anyway, those people in lal masjid were not students - they were terrorists ....

tahmed,

..... i think that if musharraf can still do the right thing by stepping down and appointing an interim civilian president - that way he will cut down on the noise and let the politicians duke it out ....... he can still have a political career by taking over pml-q or the mqm ..... why not the mqm?

......... in the next few days the emergency will be lifted and geo will be back on air ..... however the cj will not be reinstated and imran khan will not be able to add another member to his party ..........now please give up your protest .....

tahmed,

......... there were no 'students' in lal masjid - they were terrorists in training .......

masadi mian,

..... don't worry, i would never 'red-flag' you .... i kind of enjoy watching you make a fool out of yourself

Re: # 110

Masadi: " Iran strike by the US under Israeli flags might require a Pakistan crisis with US troop buildup in the dismembered sections of Pakistan as future buffer against spillover from it."

So really think, the US is going to do it? I think you are in cloud cuckoo land.... the US need not dismember pakistan...Pakistan is already a part of the plot... the civilians are going to take the hit (whether it is BiBi or Nawaaz)...the army will come out of it fine and sol will the geographic limits of pakistan. Bibi if she survives the next few years will have mre mansions in surrey to her name and few islands in dubai to her hubs name....

Hamidm: further to my saying that chances of mush without uniform remaining President has a snowflakes chance in a microwave..

What Pakistan Needs
Cutting Aid Is the Wrong Move at the Wrong Time

By Robert B. Oakley (former US Ambassador to Pakistan) and Joshua Yaphe
Monday, November 26, 2007, Washington Post

..Instead of cutting aid, we should work to bring about discussions between the army and civilian political leaders on appointing a senior civilian to serve as interim president, replacing Musharraf. Given the strain the military has been under, senior military leaders may prefer this option to find a way out of the current situation. (Appointing a powerless interim prime minister and cabinet changes nothing.) An interim government could then prepare for truly free and fair elections and a return to the rule of law, with the state of emergency lifted and civil liberties restored. ..
Yesterday, former prime minister Nawaz Sharif returned from exile, apparently with the support of Saudi Arabia. This probably will mark the end of Musharraf's political career. ..But it has been a long road rebuilding U.S.-Pakistan relations, and we cannot afford to damage them again at this sensitive moment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/25/AR2007112501 546.html

The two main fronts on the farcial "WOT" have been Iraq and Pakistan, Afghanistan was no part of it except as distraction, and if we follow the train of events this farce has come full circle as in Iraq, on the streets of Pakistan. With the upcoming Iran strike by the US under Israeli flags might require a Pakistan crisis with US troop buildup in the dismembered sections of Pakistan as future buffer against spillover from it. Maybe the US has decided it no longer wants to work with the Pakistan Army and so wants to take them out as a factor...thus far it is just speculation but the trends and patterns point to it. The surrounding vultures, Afghanistan and India, might be quite happy with the scenario. The new order post 9/11 with the US making its footmark all across(spreading like a deadly virus), is a fact that fools deny at their own peril.

Re: # 60

HP rather melodramatic, are you not?

I mean what can really happen here, that has not happened before? The vacumn will be filled.....

unless you are a pessimist like Masadi is right now...

I am not sure what you guys are on about....would you care to tell us a little bit more...

masadi: that is all i need to muster, genius. after that it is for chowk staff to do their job of banning you for violating chowk guidelines.

Re: # 99

This is very strange indeed .... esp coming from a man known to be both verbose and belicose (sp????)

Masadi, you have made a rather sweeping and extreme statement (nothing unusual for you) without expanding on it (which is unsual for you).

Why do you say this? and What is the final denounement according to you?

#97 Posted by majumdar,

majumdar saheb, please don't quote me incorrectly.

I don't contend anything. The evidence is right there. There are photos of the scene (want me to reproduce them on UP?) Eye witness accounts. The accounts of relatives looking for their dear ones in the G-11 graveyard where mass graves were built.

There were 2-3 composite body parts wrapped in single cellophane bags handed over to relatives, who struggled to see whether that arm or the leg belonged to their daughter?

What more proof do you want?

hamidm: the students at lal masjid were victims as much as the passengers of the airlines that were hijacked on 9/11. you can blame the hijackers (the lal masjid maulvis who lied to the parents of these children by claiming that they would help them make a life for themselves - and musharraf who allowed all this to happen under his nose as part of his "oversmart" tactics).

That's all you can muster tahmed, peon of the West? Is that all the fight that is left in you morons that are stabbing the people in the back? You are damn cowards, your immoral moth eaten souls don't allow you any "character", so you do sneak attacks like sissys....

#102 hamidm did not red flag your post, you foul mouthed twit. I did. Now go to hell. :-)

As you all can see hamidm the enlightened "sos" wasted no time in red flagging my post so that I can be banned from Chowk but he reserves the "right" to call for killing people on here, insulting their relgion as well as using all kinds of insults that are quite distasteful. By the way, I can use the red flagging "click" as well, watch the colors of the hamid posts change as we speak...

#93 Posted by hamidm2,

........ if the number was really 1500-2000 i would feel a lot better .....


Yes you can relax. The number was 1200 girls (mostly homeless from the 2005 AJK earthquake) plus about 250 male guards and militant helpers from Waziristan. So the total is about 1450. 2,000 is the outer limit of the estimate, but 1450 is confirmed.

So you can rest easy. Your wishes were fulfilled. 1450 of your adversaries were incinerated.

But it shouldn't distract you that most of them were around the age of your daughters (but they got chemical weapons instead of ice cream cum in their mouths.) Happy?

Re: # 97

majumdar mian,

....... this is sheer nonsense perpetuated by those who create mayhem in the name of al-lah and believe that it is okay to lie if it will help their bloody cause ..... these are the same people who deny the holocaust and the massacre of the jews of khyber ....... i have close family who live in g/6 a few hundred yards from this den of snakes and i haven't heard anything like this ...... it is mullah myth .... these people love to create martyrs so that they can justify their own heinous crimes .......

.......and the people who did die in lal masjid deserved it - good riddance to bad rubbish! ... it is a pity that some lived to wreak havoc another day ......

HP mian, this interlude with deafning silence from all the major players and the uber player (USA) is throwing some confusion into affairs. It is the eerie silence before the storm, I gather, and the possibility is that it might all be over for Pakistan as we know it....

hamid writes "any one will serve the cause of the followers of the bloody arab diety ....."

Moron, instead of looking for excuses to spew your garbage regarding Islam, look into your gireybaan, you worship your European "dieties" (the white man and his shit) who are soaked in the blood of humanity, that they've spilled mercilessly in their long history of colonization and now post WW2 the Americans have taken on that barbaric mantle with even greater rigor. Islam is not about an "arab" or "non-arab" diety. It is about truth and fact, the mullah is as far removed from it as you are, possibly even moreso because when these "devils" on chowk are not there to cheer your BS you shiver and shudder thinking about the possibilities that a life lived chasing a lie (like you are doing) and filling your belly with haraam earnings (like you have been doing) might come full circle to hit you in your dog ugly face....

Hamid mian,

(mullah ursullah keeps on talking about 1500-2000 schoolchilden being murdered ..... when and where?)

According to some reports widely quoted by Harishbhai and Zee sahib on chowk in July-August, some 1000 odd girls were killed in the JH-LM complex when the operation was concluded and apparently white phosphorus was used to incinerate their remains. This hypothesis has been widely contested by many chowkies including notably YLH on the grounds that no legally tenable evidence has been found. While this is factually true, Zee sahib contends that for 2-3 days the mosque complex was sealed off from public/media view and all evidence of a genocide systematically wiped out by the Shamimist Army.

Regards