Where is Ibn-Sina of the 21st Century?

Name: Masadi
Age: Paleolithic
Sex: Never
Address: Tora Bora

Dx: primary: Gilles de la Tourette; secondary: enterobiasis

Rx
1)Haloperidol 10 mg/day (3 divided doses)

2)Mebendazole 100 mg (single dose - repeat 48 hrs)

...SR

SR (Super Retard) writes" A tree is know by its fruits."

Here is another Bible Thumping A. Wipe for you. He has no problem with causing physical harm to others as he was trying to do with Zeemax, but is all worked up about the morality behind someone exposing his bigotry regarding Islam, As you all saw, his knowledge both of the Quran and of comprehending simple prose is at an infantile level. As for the sob who is redflagging my every post, you F yourself...

SR writes "Now let me get this straight. Please answer with clear and uncomplicated language, without any hedging or double-speak"

All my answers are in clear uncomplicated language unlike your BS which is a deliberate distortion of the Quran for the purpose of soothing your bigotry. What is not explicitly disallowed by the Quran, and very few things are, is left to the discretion of the person. Now what part of this very simple, uncomplicated answer do you not understand?

Masadi sahib/SR sahib,

And are Muslim women allowed to marry the real useless fellows- the Hanuds, Boodhists, Sikhs, Jainis, Shintos, animists, Chinks and all that.

Regards

Re: # 172 masadi [ "...the second part, that verse says absolutely not a word about Muslim women not being able to marry among the ahl el Kitaab ...

Even today we see the ahl el kitaab, the shia and the sunni intermarry both men and women among each other..."]

masadi

My dear fellow, you really are an interesting character. Bless you.

Now let me get this straight. Please answer with clear and uncomplicated language, without any hedging or double-speak.

QUESTION: Are you saying that it is allowed for a Muslim woman to marry a Christian or a Jewish man? YES, or NO?

It appears from your answer that you are saying there is NO ban on Muslim women marrying 'People of the Book' -- the commonly interpreted meaning of the phrase 'People of the Book' is Christians and Jews. But you have thrown a twist in your next sentence by bring in sunni and shia and saying that they can intermarry... The inter-marriage of shia and sunni was never a question. Unless, of course, you consider one of them to be lesser-Muslims or non-Muslims.

As for your ugly manners, I do not mind. It is very common amongst the believers. If I didn't know better I would have assumed that Islam teaches ugliness and impoliteness. A tree is know by its fruits. Most strangers will judge Islam by looking at the way its champions conduct themselves and interact with others. A great job you seem to be doing of promoting the good name of Islam.

...SR

Chowk friends, since chowk staff is in the habit of banning me time and again, can you send me a message with your email addresses so that I can email my responses to you and you all can post them, if you desire to know my pov and find it beneficial. That way we can go around the censorship of the Chowk staff that is acting in pure dictatorial fashion like Musharraf the sos.

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a well-written, thought-provoking article - brilliantly argued

Re: # 167 hamaray hinduism kee jaan chor bhai,tum apnay islam ko thek kar

Re: # 78 tera maghaz jo choohay jitna hai...what kind of artificial man u r , a perception which is jaundiced and a comprehension like a kadoo.

Re: # 163
Is there anything called Hinduism? I really doubt. I have read Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata. Nowhere I have found the word Hindu.

Re: # 163
Is there anything called Hinduism? I really doubt. I have read Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata. Nowhere I have found the word Hindu.

Re: # 143
The dogma is the reason for backwardness. Christianity and Islam has started that. History proves the harmful effects of Islam and Christianity on civilisation. Whether you treat Jesus as Son of God (or Muhammed is the last prophet) will decide, whether you are eligible for living. This thought is the worst enemy of humanity. That basically destroy the plurality of thoughts and thought process stops at some point. When the entire society is gripped with such fever, civilisation takes beating.
Large number of people are accepting Christianity and Islam in Asia etc...That does not justify that they are doing right. How that is contributing to humanity and civilisation that matters. A nice example of islam,
A large number of the recent recruiters by islamists end up becoming suicide bomber and killers. Does that implies, the people have taken correct decision?

Zeemax ji
This gentleman SR in spite of his grocery business (What is wrong with it by the way?) has always sounded more intelligent, analytical, balanced and controlled in his behaviour than you, a high flying banker. You are prone to go from one extreme (telling muhammad and his exploits as it was) to another of becoming jihad instigator. Why don't you learn to live a life of equilibrium? Mr. Kaalchakra can help you in it.
Regards

hamidm#135:

Lol!

Don't try to fathom Hinduism, it's like peeling onion skin after skin. For most of us Hindus, we do not try to understand our religion, it's enough to know that we are Hindus.

But seriously, I have always thought of the Hindu religion as a Buffet dinner, you pick and choose what you like and leave the rest.

Re: # 160 mohar [ "... :)... banking and jihad...

No wonder pakiland is so ****ed uo..." ]

Tell me about it... What a toxic brew. What noxious fumes... Phew. Not to mention corruption and unethical conduct thrown into the mix for extra flavoring.

Geeezus... golly..!!!!!

...SR

PS: Unfortunately, we got side tracked in this silly pissing match ... and in the mean time #151 went unanswered.

Those who claim that the Quran does not contradict "EQUAL RIGHTS MYTH" between the sexes are strangely silent.

#160 Posted by mohar11,

Yeah .. well ... that's true. Do you see any dichotomy between the two?

ok - let me get this - one of pakiland's central bankers who manages pakiland's "cross-currency debt or a foreign reserves portfolio" is actually an out and out Jihadi?...

zee dude, you da man... :)... banking and jihad...

No wonder pakiland is so ****ed uo...

#158 Posted by SR,

Dear SR,

I'm a central banker, right here in Pakistan, as my friends on this forum know. Happy now?

Sorry I took your joy away in threatening to blow any cover or reporting me to any ISI for my firm Islamist stand. I know these army intelligence types perhaps a bit more than you do from your stupid batch mates at Hasan Abdaal. I know these idiots very well and how much they are worth.

Did I just spoil your puny sport?

Re the acumen in pedaling groceries or gas stations, that's a bit different from managing a country's cross-currency debt or a foreign reserves portfolio.

That's over and out as far as I'm concerned. But you can continue fishing in a pool of piss (mootar wich machhian pharna) if you like :)

Regards.

Re: # 155 zeemax [ "...get your kid circumcised.

People who ... run cheap grocery stores ... should not attempt talking about markets and economies. ..." ]

Wah... Is this the best you could do?

The tip of my son's penis is none of your god-damned business. If he grows up and wants it chopped off he can do it any time. I didn't think there was much point to it so I didn't subject him to it. I act on my convictions, instead of just jawboning them.

I put my money where my mouth is and I am not a corporate whore, nor have I climbed the ladder by clawing my way up, selling my soul to the devil and being a pimp to wealthy clients openning the door to my bedroom.

Ever since the crash of 1987 I have maintained that the control one has over one's investments, like gravity and the intensity of light, diminishes with the square of distance between you and your investments. I have denounced paper assets as organised theft and maintained that one must invest in tangible assets.

You think that calling me a rikshaw wala or an dukandar is going to insult me. Wrong. The fact that I've considered small neighborhood business -- restaurants, grocery stores -- and taxis (the ones with rubber tires -- not stelleto heels) as a superior investment to mutual funds is a matter of pride for me. And yes, cheap grocery store are a better value for money with a superior rate of return than slick expensive ones where the rich shop. So apart from that one big Italian restaurant fiasco I've never lost money in a small business. Same goes for taxi cabs.

Look, I am not threatening you with anything. I don't have any sway over anyone in the ISI... That was simply your paranoia (what you mentioned in your private dispatch). But I am willing to let this go, if you right here because I have no wish to expose you and your doings. The ball is entirely in your court.

As far as I am concerned this matter can end right here, right now after this post. To honor what you wrote to me privately, I will "...not make a public spectacle..." of this any further than this, "...for old times sake..."

...SR

Re: # 155

Zeemax Sahib:

"...run cheap grocery stores all their lives should not attempt talking about markets and economies...."

With all due respect to you. Samll grocery store operators, infact truly operate the market day in day out, and operate in Adam Smith's pure capitalistic economy. Obviously, your insults apart.

Re: # 153 "Are you willing to unveil yourself and take the gloves off? I think not."

Sohail - spill the beans....this sort of titillation is not on. Having stripped zeemax this much you must continue and complete the deed. Now be a man!

#153,

Fuck off and get your kid circumcised.

People who have never done anything more than run cheap grocery stores all their lives should not attempt talking about markets and economies.

#153 Posted by SR on December 15, 2007 8:11:08 pm


except perhaps that you were drunk as a skunk.


hai allah...zeemax was drinking!!....what would allah say about that?

Re: # 137 zeemax [ "...Mr. SR's knowledge of Islam is limited to faithfreedom.org, and that's where he wants it to remain - because he's an admitted murtad. ..." ]

Zahid sahib

If you want to have a mud slinging match in this public forum, so be it. But I advise you against it.

My identity is know to all and I have nothing to hide. You, on the other hand, hide behind the veil of a pseudonym. Old Chowk readers know that you and I are personally know to one another and they may also have picked on the fact that we have had a falling out.

People realise that basically you are resentful and cannot swallow the reality that I who is a non-professional layman, was right while you, who is supposed to be the professional was wrong in your judgement and prediction about some macroeconomic questions about international finance. (US$ vs Euro and Gold etc...) You resents that... Your ego cannot handle it.

As a result, last time you were in Lahore I visited you at Eden Heights apartment where you were spending the night, you started abusing and insulting me for no reason at all, except perhaps that you were drunk as a skunk. I finally got upset and told you "fuck off" and left.

Are you willing to unveil yourself and take the gloves off? I think not.

You lunatic jihadi rants are on record and regardless of what you rave about, basically you are a comfort loving creature and will not want the ISI monitoring these sites to come and nab you under the terrorist act. Would you?

I am sorry it had to come to this, but you leave me little choice.

...SR

i think muslims should start reading, iqbals, reconstruction of modern islamic thought. that will change their attitude. wahabism aflight on petro dollars is the major cause of trouble for islam. kill the saudi royal family and there will be peace.

Re: # 112 masadi [ "...SR writes "These are derived from the dictums of the Quran"...

Nonsense ... when you don't know anything about Islam and the Quran, please SHUT UP.

You cannot just throw out claims without knowing anything about the issues involved in the particular claims.

...not to base your propagandistic understanding of Islam on popular films and rants of Christian evangelicals..."]

Re: # 112 abu safwan [ "...Don't believe everything that CBN and pat robertson tell u. etc...etc...
..."]

My dear Sirs,

I admire your confidence and your strong feelings, but I dare say that you are being 'apologists'. You gentlemen seem to think you know your theology, but my dear friends, you seem to have far more 'faith in' than you have 'knowledge of' the Quran.

I am forced to conclude that you are either ignorant or dishonest. I suspect, however, that you are merely ignorant, for it does seem that you are both honest and upright gentleman.

The myth of equality of rights (men vs. women in Islam) that your creative imagination has invented does not pass the test of Quranic injunctions.

Now it would be fine if you only claimed that Quran was a collection of the sayings of the Prophet
(while he was in a certain 'altered' state, and had visions of the angel Gabriel) then we could explain the things away by invoking Semitic culture and tradition in those times and say that men did more travel and business etc, etc, and since women at that time did not have worldly experience, therefore such injunctions were issued for a temporary period, or some other excuse like that. For this is the kind of argument you (abu safwan) seem to be giving.

But if you assert forcefully that the Quran is nothing less than the unadulterated Word of The Almighty Allah, then such an excuse cannot be considered valid. Minor errors that the Prophet can be easily understood to have made owing to his specific times and his cultural environment, cannot be accepted if the source is to be Allah.

IF Allah actually condescended to dictate HIS/HER Book through The Prophet, then HE/SHE (Allah) being all knowing and all powerful, damn well must have known how other cultures in later centuries will be. Therefore, any contextual excuse (like local cultural considerations) can not be used as an apology to explain away the diminishing of women's rights. I'm sorry, respected friends, but your logic rests on very thin ice.

I would have had much greater respect for you (though I would still reject your views) if you had been honest and courageous enough to say that this was how Allah ordered it in the Quran and therefore you don't question it even if it is unpopular in the light of modern thinking.

Please check the holy book and find the following:

(Note: Some ayats are quite long and cover several other things, so in the interest of brevity, I am inserting the words (…etc, etc,…) and reproducing only those portions that are the relevant portion here… If the ayat is brief then it is not edited)

1) Muslim men can, but women cannot marry outside Islam

Surah al-Mumtahana (#60), Ruku # 2, ayat # 10 (place of origin: Medina)

O ye who believe! When believing women come … (etc etc) … They are not lawful for the disbelievers, nor are the disbelievers lawful for them. And give the disbelievers that which they have spent (upon them. …(etc, etc)…That is the judgment of Allah. …(etc, etc)…

Surah al-Maida (#5), Ruku 1, ayat #5 (origin : Medina)
…(etc, etc…) The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers but chaste women among the People of the Book revealed before your time when ye give them their due dowers and desire chastity not lewdness nor secret intrigues. …(etc, etc…)

2) a) Two Women witnesses equal to One Man.
2) b) Women inherit half as much property as men.

Surah al-Baqarah (#2), Ruku 39, ayat #282

…(etc, etc)…And get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as ye choose for witnesses so that if one of them errs the other can remind her…(etc, etc)… Note: (The context in this ayat is, as abu safwan correctly said, regarding commercial transactions)

Surah An-Nisaa (# 4), Ruku 2, ayat 11 and 12

Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children's (inheritance): to the male a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters two or more their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one her share is a half. ..(etc, etc)…These are settled portions ordained by Allah and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.

In what your wives leave your share is a half if they leave no child; but if they leave a child ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave their share is a fourth if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts…(etc, etc)…

Ruku 24, ayat # 177

…(etc, etc)… If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. Allah expoundeth unto you, so that ye err not. Allah is Knower of all things.



Who cares if the discrimination is in criminal law or in civil law. Discrimination is discrimination. I never asserted that it was a women's criminal law testimony that was considered half that of a man. This is an unnecessary dichotomies.

Furthermore, you (abu safwan) seem to be saying that this particular injunction of the Quran wouldn't necessarily be valid in our times.

Since there are women in the Business world today one can safely argue that the ayah is referring to a particular time period as the Quran so often does.

Is this what you are saying? Because if you keep dropping verses which have become 'obsolete' many more verses of the Quran can be (rightfully) discarded into the dustbin of history. Are you really saying that? If you are, then we have no further argument.

Next is the concept of houris of paradise...? Without reproducing the ayats here I am going to give you references only (in the interest of space and time). It is very clear that the houris are supposed to be virgins and act as 'wives' for the faithful men (and men only). Also, their beauty has been assured. No such promises for the pious women, alas. Here are the references:

a) Surah Ad-Dukhan (44), Ruku 3, ayat 54 (Several ayats here describe the 'blessings of Paradise' for the pious.

b) Surah At-Tur (52), Ruku 1, ayat #20 (again description of Paradise in several ayats)

c) Surah Ar-Rehman (55), Ruku 3, ayat # 72 - 74 (once again depictions of Paradise over several ayats)

d) Surah Al-Waqi'a (56), Ruku 1, ayat # 22 (yet again in the context of rewards await the pious in Paradise)

Please be faithful to the facts at least.

regards

...SR

Do not ask what your religion can do for you,
ask what you can do for your religion

anil ji, guess, the old cliche captures it best: challenge is walking the fine line between not learning anything from history and being enslaved by it. Between using history as one of the many factors guiding us into the future and turning it into a total prison for ourselves.

Re: # 143

Eklavya:

"...As to Hinduism, we just don't know. We have only had fifty odd years of freedom after thousand years of slavery..."

Your point is well put.

Although its main effect is reactionay that many people start searching for answers and reasons for anger in the past, and become as regressive anything that was in the enslaved past. Such people continue to be regressive and cannot give up the past. We can observe it here as well.

Re: # 135

Hamindm Sahib:

"...something someone high on bhang or mushrooms or some other wild herb made up while on a bad trip..."

So now you believe the Hinduism means inclusion of all. How about contributing to it while high on your Whiskey and Soda.

Please try not be jealous, Hinduism beats all others combined "10 to 1" on myth creation is the game. Looks pretty bad to a competitive guy in the loosing side. Even if you are the best, there are too many on the winning side, so don't even think of switching the side.

Just accept your Karma...

#138 Posted by Maharana on December 15, 2007 7:48:45 am


It is good to have humorous stories in one's mythology.


"One man's religion is another mans' belly laugh." Robert A. Heinlein

and with hinduism, that's a lot of belly laughs...

BTW, I read Stephen Colbert's book I am America(and so can you). It has a chapter on religion. All religions are savaged, except islam, the religion of peace(and blowing stuff up)..There's a one very deferential reference to islam and mo...even comedians know muslims go ape shit at every real and perceived insult to mo or his camel. probably didn't want ROPers to go killing each other and burning down KFCs.

Feroz,

Since you are a muslim, I think you should read Hammurabi's code and compare them to the laws in Koran.You can objectively assess about the originality of such islamic laws and question its moral foundation and perhaps look at them as secular and hence changeable laws.
It is amazing how the poor mesopotamians were screwed despite being the original civilization. The barbarians around the mesopotamians hated its culture and destroyed it. And yet took the same secular laws from them and relabeled them as moral laws handed by the creator. It was carried originaly by the jews, then the christians and finally the muslims.
Fortunately the renaissance changed all that and we have reverted back to the original concept of secular laws like those of Hammurabi. A walk in the natural history museum in NYC will tell you how the modern western laws are based upon Hammurabi's original secular laws. In India manusmriti has been relegated to the dustbin replaced by the constitution. No one dares to mention manusmriti's laws to govern the public life.
Do you think something like that can happen in the islamic world?

Adios

It’s a good read. Islam, especially the form of Islam followed in Saudi Arabia is the worst kind. There is no logic or reason associated with it. Well, isn’t that the case in every religion. Christmas is the biggest celebration of the birth of a man for which there is no solid historical evidence. Moreover the story of virgin birth, which was a common myth in old times, is untrue. It’s included in bible and Quran. No one with a bit of reason at hand can ever believe the story of virgin birth but can a Muslim dare say that it’s not true. NO. So my friends, religion is not based on truth but has nothing to do with truth, its a socio-political phenomenon which should not be taken in literal sense.
Thanks

nkg, I have no idea what manu smriti has. If there are some useful principles in it, we can surely keep them. But rejecting the book (as a guide) itself is symobolically important for putting the past behind us. The last thing we want is to be in 'love' with manu, or start proving that he was a 'nice guy' of some sort.

# 141

nkg, hard to respond to that. It has a dismissive tone toward Christianity and Islam that, IMHO, is very unfair. Consider this: both Christianity and Islam continue to rapidly expand; their ranks are swelling. So if this is a modern age, then these couldn't be just 'medieval theories.' Fact is, both offer something that many many humans need, and always will need.

As to Hinduism, we just don't know. We have only had fifty odd years of freedom after thousand years of slavery. Whether any of this is real, or will last, for how long, none of this is clear. It will depend, I guess, on whether Hinduism actually develops a response to outsiders, any different than it did the last thousand years. Whether Hindus become moneyed or not is irrelevant in evolutionary battle.

Indians and Chinese fall into the trap of communism for precisely the same reasons that they become 'victims' (from their own point of view) of Islam and other semitic doctrines. You would never see a communist Muslim nation staying communist for very long.

Re: # 140
Lot of non-brahmins do well in education and large section of so called brahmins are poorly educated. Education still is most valued in Indian society (a businessman may earn more money, but a professor/teacher earns more respect in our society). That makes us sticking to the Manu theory still now. When we deviate from that and starts valueing the businessman more than a teacher, then we have drifted from Manu Smriti.

Re: # 139
The dark side of mediaval theories like Christianity and Islam is very well known. How much bloodshed the Jihad and Crusade had created has no parallel. West has started developing, when they have moved away from Christianity and in the form of secularism, started valueing their ancient civilization like that of Athense. Middle east, after the advent of Islam, is still crippled (leave Israel. That is different story). Can you see any contribution like what the people of Mesopotemia or Egypt in ancient time did (other than using oil money to promote terrorism and sectarian violence)? Mediaval age is called the dark age. Unless and until people move from these mediaval concepts, large section of humanity will be deproved of civilization.
The funnier side for we Indians and Chinese people are that, we had started the century with equally bad state. The respective Govt.s ( Nehru and Mao) had tried to force us some alien theory, which overlooks our glorious past. And then we are fighting against each other. I don't know, why China has to use arms to occupy Tibbet and put the alien theory of Communism on the people there. Why Congress and other political parties has to force secularism ( indian form) on Indians? I hope, China and India move forward and should regain their glorious past. Another 50 years?

nkg, agreed. For me, the greatest modern brahmin has been Baba Ambedkar. But there are some major problems in thinking that way (notice, I had to include "for me." That is not a rational way of thinking. We should leave it to those who are more interested in playing with words and soothing their own egos than in effecting real change.)

-------------------------

hamidm, mahrana, craziness exists. All 'serious business' lies behind the scene. It relates to how craziness should be treated.

One approach is to know craziness and use it to entertain our children and be amused by it. Within that craziness, we can find some parallels to our own lives, which can teach us some lessons. This approach creates a great deal of freedom and some disorder and error.

The other, equally valid, approach is to believe in what others call craziness (since craziness is not seen as craziness), hold on to it in the face of all 'contrary' evidence, and enforce it through mechanisms of 'love' of specific individuals or fear of God. This creates a great deal of order and some unfreedom.

Both are ok choices and reflect and ultimately create different kinds of collective (even individual) human minds.

Re: # 134
If you see the history only couple of centuries, Brahmins should be blamed. Mind it, it is easy to create a classless society but, that never excels. To get a stable and effective society, you need to devide people and trough some generalization and specilization. From the ancient texts, it was evident that, Brahmins were not by birth. Lot of Brahmins were kicked out for their bad conduct. There are instances, when people from lower caste is inducted into the brahmin group. Lower caste people, specially dalits may hate Manu. But, he has provided a social structure, which is still valid in other form. Professor, Doctors, reasearch scholers, scientists are today's Brahmins. The group-D stauffs are today's sudra's. Politicians are today's kshatriyas etc...There is no point blaming Brahmins/Manu.

Hamidm,

Don't worry about belittling our religion. I think we ourselves do a better job doing that. I remember my high school teacher (a muslim) taunting us Hindus in the class one day, that we are so disrespectful towards our religion. He asked us to emulate the muslims and christians in showing reverence towards their respective religions. But I think we hindus are too thick skinned to take anything seriously.

It is good to have humorous stories in one's mythology. Ganesha's stories of riding on a rat are funny and I remember every kid reading it laughing. So is Hanuman, pretty much the first superman like character in the world.

But I think the serious side of Hinduism that gets overlooked in this caricature of sorts is captured well by people like Joseph Campbell for the western audience. If you see or read his "The Power of Myth" you'll perhaps appreciate the mythmakers too and understand why they are not prone to crusades.

Adios

Adios

#115 Posted by abu_safwaan, Masadi etc.

Mr. SR's knowledge of Islam is limited to faithfreedom.org, and that's where he wants it to remain - because he's an admitted murtad.

So don't waste your time.

islam saved in the tribal areas

LANDI KOTAL: The Mulla Gori and Zakha Khel tribes in Khyber Agency at a public meeting in Mulla Gori Sherbridge on Friday announced that their women would not be allowed to vote. Tribal elders warned the Election Commission not to set up polling stations for women in their areas, saying they would shut them down. They also warned women not to violate their decision, threatening action in line with tribal traditions.

santani, eklavaya, dost and other horrible hindoos,

.... i don't mean to belittle your 'religion' but it is just too weird for consumption for people of faith who frequent this site .....

......horrible hindooism is a caricature of a religion, something someone high on bhang or mushrooms or some other wild herb made up while on a bad trip ....... look guys, no offense, but your cockamamie stuff about baby-eating goddesses with six arms, rat riding gods with elephant noses and monkey kings with tails on fire, is just too outlandish to take seriously........ sure, we folks might believe in virgins giving birth, angels flying like bats in and out of caves, and old men parting the seas with a swipe of the long staff, but it is still mild stuff compared to your silly tripe ......

.....however, to your credit i have to say that i have yet to meet an educated hindoo who takes his 'religion' half as seriously as people of the book .... maybe they are simply too ashamed to admit that they would rather worship the meat on their plate than eat it, or bottle and refigerate their urine instead of draining it down the urinal, but all the hindoos i have met seem to have a healthy disdain for their silly religion ...... which is a good thing ..... unlike the god crazy christians, jews and muslims, most of you guys seem to have realized that their is no future in this craziness ......

lol, sanatani dada, stukes is all right. First, as we recognize, Brahmins cannot escape the blame for the total mess we got ourselves into (as an aside, didn't brahmins also help invent/impose on us blind liberalism, Nehru being the blindest of them all?). Second, communists and other non-Indians actually aiming to destroy Indian traditions as a whole have considered it necessary to isolate, separate brahmins, the latter having mostly been interested in matters spritual and philosphical. (so you have communist and non-Indian stories of brahmins having gone around slaughtering Buddists and hanging Bhagwan Budhha).

IMHO, no tears are necessary when brahmins are blamed. Baba Sahib ambedkar, for instance, had full right to abuse and blame everyone else - Brahmins most of all. But when communists and other outsiders jump in propagating myths, they must be put in their places. And since these people aim to hurt not only brahmins, this must be a collective Indian effort. Stukes has no ulterior motive.

Abe Kameen,

Tu phir chaloo ho gaya. Last time you wer a proud Hindu now again:

"If anything, it was the Brahmin's iron clad control on Hindu society that led to its self destruction. Today, in India's urban areas, and also in fact in rural, the Brahmin is nothing more than a provider of services. The lower casts (not the Dalits yet, but the Shudars like Jats etc.)"

Why are people like you not greatful for the fact if it were not for the Brahmins Dharam would not have survived. (This is not to whitewash certain wrongs they have done) but the Brahmin is a caste much more sinned against than sinner than any such [definable] class in the world (Please let me know which Brahmin gave a Dharam adhyadesh againt Prathameshwar Guru Nanak for preaching equality) in fact within his Tarunyug Prathameshwar saw a Brahmin being sentenced to death for saying Hinduism and Islam are equal.

What of the Brahmins of Varanasi who gave the sacred knowledge to the 5 Pyaras when Dashameshwar sent them to Varanasi to gain a more insightful knowledge of Dharam and Gyan.

What of the fact that EVEN if we include the Vanvasi Hindus of Jan Nayak Birsa Munda even then % of the number of people hanged/killed by the Brits who were Brahmin was over 50% and excluding the Vanvasis 75%. Overall the Khalsa came next at little over 10% and the Vanvasis at a little under that(all figure appx +_ 2%[this figure HOWEVER MOST EXPLICITLY DOES NOT INCLUDES MADAR DAS GANDHIS BRAVE MOMINS THE MOPLAHS WHO DID A NICE LITTLE JIHAD FOR SWARAJ AGAINST THE HINDUS IN 1921])

And then again using these terms Pakis use like Shoodar? What will u use next Choorha for Dalits?

Sanatani

# 131, stukes is a pretty knowledgeable guy, but sometimes his love for niharis gets the better of him :)

Stukes, Brahmins deserved a lot of blame for weakening Indian society, but they never had any 'iron control.' At best that is a commie myth.

We got balaatkaarred primarily because our diversity got out of control. Internally we could not weed out our mistakes and big problems. Externally we could not recognize and deal with existential threats.

stuka:

"These very words could be used to describe the Brahmin in days gone by. If anything, it was the Brahmin's iron clad control on Hindu society that led to its self destruction"

And when was that? My understanding of the caste system is that the power was shared by the twice-born, i.e., the three upper castes, with Brahmins controlling religious rites, the scholarly pursuits and maybe policies; kshatriyas controlling the military and generally kingdoms and maybe also land while the vaisyas controlled businesses. Indeed, in the Hindu mythologies, like Ramayana and Mahabharta, it is the Kshatriyas, such as Ram and Pandvas who are the heroes while the priests are almost insignificant.

Kulharee, you have brought up something that I have often thought about; this is the lack of new and creative ideas coming from Asia in general.
For desis at least, I believe that this is so because of our inability to challenge our elders as children; this leads to being unable to challenge our teachers as students, or our bosses as workers. A rigid hierachy stifles the growth of the mind. For many researchers, even if they do come up with an idea, it is stolen by the department head or others in a senior position. And I would like to reiterate the importance of being able to commit blasphemy in every way. New ideas do not grow in a vacuum.

Kulharee, you have brought up something that I have often thought about; this is the lack of new and creative ideas coming from Asia in general.
For desis at least, I believe that this is so because of our inability to challenge our elders as children; this leads to being unable to challenge our teachers as students, or our bosses as workers. A rigid hierachy stifles the growth of the mind. For many researchers, even if they do come up with an idea, it is stolen by the department head or others in a senior position. And I would like to reiterate the importance of being able to commit blasphemy in every way. New ideas do not grow in a vacuum.

Re: # 12

http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/20041120_en.html

Re: # 120

Massaddi Mian:

"Because we have discussed that topic 1001 times ..."

Who are we, Massaddi Mian? You cannot even speak for yourself, without abusing others.

Re: # 12
The muslim claims on mathematics and astronomy is basically taken from India (northern and central india).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmagupta
http://www.geocities.com/dipalsarv esh/mathematics.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panini

Most of these people were non-priest class Brahmins. Moslems has slaughtered these people of northern India. They have destroyed most of the texts. Taxila is the place where language theory and Grammar born.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/devan.nambiar/ayurveda.htm

Most of middle east country were not under external rulers. Neither, these places were plundered, looted and people were killed like whatever happened in northern India.
So, how the culture is lost?

Mr. Masadi
Seriously, you need help before you destroy yourself. You are so full of negativity in your life and responses that it is amazing. Your misplaced arrogance and opinionated self-righteous attitude make you extremely abusive towards one and all. Mr. SR is a well-mannered, intelligent gentleman who always interacts in a dignified manner. Is it your own insecurities and inferiority complex that you always interact in offensive manner?
Please for your own good, seek some help.
Regards

The new age Sunnat and its Jehad!!

I picket this piece of muslim sh!t from the TOI board that is under cyber jehad currently from Pakistanis-

"Islam will rule the world, very soon.
Allah Hu Akbar.
Constitution for the new Islamic Republic of EU , India and USA is under construction.
To the infidels of the West:
We will fight the infidel to death.
Meanwhile American laws will protect us
Democrats and Leftist will support us
UNO will legitimize us.
CAIR of USA and MCB of UK will incubate us
ACLU will support us
Western Universities will educate us.
Mosques in the West will shelter us
OPEC will finance us
Moderate Muslims will fertilize us
Hollywood / Bollywood will love us.
Koffi Annan will pass politically correct sympathetic statement for Jihadists.
Iran and Syria will refuel us
Our children will be our armors.
Not the race, not the color of our skin, not the national origin or the citizenship but the Islam and only Islam binds us.
No major news media republished Mohammad [PBUH] caricature in any major way. That is the proof that first amendment gave way to our Sharia law that prohibits Mohammad’s [PBUH] caricature. Get ready. Sharia law is coming to a town near you.
Western / Indian civilization got to go.
We will teach our children Islamic supremacy from the very childhood. We will take the advantage of their kindness, gullibility and compassion. When time comes, we will stab them in the back as we did on 9/11 and 7/7 the Islamic way. We will say one thing on the camera (Islam is the religion of peace) and teach another thing (Quran 8:12 Terrorize and behead the infidels wherever you find them) to our children at home.
At the time of the real fight we will hold our own children as our armor – this is Islamic way. When American or Israeli troops shoot at us the world will be watching. Imagine,… Imagine the news in the world “Death of Muslim babies by infidels”. We know CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC are broadcasting live. Al-Jazeera will pour gasoline on the fire. The news will spread like wildfire.
We will take over the Europe first and then India anf then US will be the next. We already have a solid ground in the UK, Holland, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Germany, India and now in the US.
Islam is the fastest growing religion among convicts in prison all over the word. 30% of French prison inmates are already converted to Islam. How are you going to defeat us?
We are partnering with ACLU, Democrats and Liberals, EU-France, CAIR, MCB, ISNA
THE RULES OF THE WAR HAVE CHANGED.
There is new game in town.
Let's see the effectiveness of Islamic warfare.
Muslims Vs. the West.
Bill Clinton ordered 50 Tomahawks Cruise missiles costing $100,000,000 each to destroy $50 mud houses that belonged to Osama's family. What a stupidity? What a poor ROI (Return On Investment)
In return Osama's attack on the US.
Cost: 19 martyrs and less than $500,000.
Cost to the West: over 3,000 dead.
At least $1,000,000,000,000 (one trillion) dollars economical loss in one year. This includes the ripple effect.
Osama's ROI with respect to:
Life = 3,000/19 = 158 fold.
Dollar = $1 tr./500K = 2,000,000 fold

This is modern warfare. The West will lose.

Allah-Hu-Akbar.
Islam will rule the world. There is nothing you can do. Even if the per capita GDP of the world drops to half of its present level as a consequence of Islamic laws in place all over the world but still Islam will rule the word.
From your point of view we bring to the world to the dark ages, so be it. But still Islam wins, you loses.
Are you sure you want to play this game? "

http://o3.indiatimes.com/mytimes/archive/2007/12/12/4839663.aspx

masadi, the fountain of knowledge and mo's annointed interpreter of islam, has declared the saudis apostates....

Arjun-da,

The daughter gets half because when she gets married n is living with her husband, its her husbands responsibility to provide for the need of the household, whereas her brother is responsible for his mother n his wife n children...i thought it was self-explanatory with lil room for confusion but than again u r a rock-star.

Its not giving props for something that they'll do in future...there have been fatwas on them already..besides..there isnt a country where sharia is fully implemented anyway..soo its a non-issue today

Re: # 109

You mock the possibility of following Sunnat in the modern times!!!

I agree- Sunnat can never be followed in the modern times howsoever hard momins try to create Pak/Pure lands or "Islamic republics".

Modernity is completely in contradistinction to Sunnat ideology - the law of barbarian hallucinating prophet- this indeed is the clash of civilization.

arjun writes "why isn't this the place to discuss women's rights?"

1. Discussions on the threads have to revolve around the topic of the article

2. Because we have discussed that topic 1001 times on here and everytime your ignorance has stood out like a flashing strobe on a dark winter night.....

arjun writes "doesn't it follow that the saudis, the keepers of mecca, are following unislamic practices? "

What's so suprising about the Saudis following unislamic practices? And what is so surprising about mecca being under the control of unbelievers? What is totally unsurprising are you dimwitted arguments as well as your bigotry...give it up fool.

#115 Posted by abu_safwaan on December 14, 2007 3:06:18 pm


many of our scholars have said that its something where ijtihaad can take place n this can be looked at.


taking credit for actions that may or may not happen in the future? That's like giving props to the saudis NOW because the issue of women driving could possibly looked at in the future.


3)Women inherit half property because women r not responsible for taking care of financial matters of the household


So a son is automatically the person responsible for financial matters and the daughter is excluded?

Abu_ji,

thank you

Re: # 110 what difference does it make stuka?

Should your attitude change towards me if I am opposite of what you think I am? Should I be as visualised by you?

I will say this (I have said this many times before as well to others in one form or the other, in one context or the other) I am what I am, not what others want me to be!

Let me in on a small secret as well, now we are into this, Masadi is not what Masadi appears to be!

SR Bhai. Don't believe everything that CBN and pat robertson tell u.

1)Its recommended for both men n women to marry Muslims.. Prophet PBUH said that it would be better for u to marry a peasent Muslim girl than to marry a daughter of a non Muslim king.

2) 2 women equal one man ..were for financial matters only in the time when women werent involved in commerce...many of our scholars have said that its something where ijtihaad can take place n this can be looked at.

3)Women inherit half property because women r not responsible for taking care of financial matters of the household, it's man;s responsibility. Whatever a woman own is hers n hers only where as a man has to share whatever he owns with the entire family, his wife n his kids n hes actually responsible for taking care of the expenses..where as women arent..so therefore its to offset that added burden.

It really boils down to what ur intentions r..if u r just looking for flaws in Islam than no matter what I or anyone says ..i m sure u would find a flaw n u'll run with it..but if u r looking to understand Islam sincerely than I can sugest some helpful resources.

Bhai shankar... u right to an extent..but even in sunnis there r a lot of ppl who believe that if u have pious ppl (whatever that means) plead on ur behalf than the creator is more responsive..i personally find that insulting to the creator and myself...when Allah swt clearly says in Quran ..if u need anything ask me urself..mullah's r like teachers...when u dont know a subject matter u go to someone who knows it...u should respect em as a teacher but in my opinion no one can really plead ur case like u would ..especially since Allah swt doesnt need u to be eloquent or anything..sincerity is all thats needed

#112 Posted by masadi on December 14, 2007 12:50:49 pm

why isn't this the place to discuss women's rights?

Let's take a simple example. The Saudi ban on women driving. Either it's islamic as per the koran or it's not. If it's not islamic and the saudis are still discriminating against women, doesn't it follow that the saudis, the keepers of mecca, are following unislamic practices?

SR writes "These are derived from the dictums of the Quran"...

Nonsense, my advice to aslam applies to you as well, when you don't know anything about Islam and the Quran, please SHUT UP.

You cannot just throw out claims without knowing anything about the issues involved in the particular claims. Since this is not the place to discuss women's rights, I'll let you do the reading of my writings elsewhere http://women.rationalreality.com

And while you are at it, it would be good advice for you not to base your propagandistic understanding of Islam on popular films and rants of Christian evangelicals. You reveal yourself to be a mere bigot when you do that

Re: # 101 masadi [ "...Islam has absolutely nothing to do with lack of women's rights, in fact the Quran is most progressive regarding equality between the sexes..." ]

If what you say (quoted above) is indeed true then, respectfully, may I ask why:

1) Muslim men can, but women cannot marry outside Islam

2) Two Women witnesses equal to One Man

3) Women inherit half as much property as men

These are derived from the dictums of the Quran. Why can believers simply not be apologitic and say, "thus is it written so thus we shall do. If you don't like it, tough. You don't have to follow Islam." That would be a more honest (and therefore honorable) stance to take rather than to deny and twist and turn meaning just to suit the "political correctness" of modern times.

Please enlighten.

...SR

Dash Dot, I always assumed you were an Indian, but today I think you are actually Pakistani? Am I correct now or was I correct earlier? The reason I thought you were Indian was because of your original attitude to Maharani Neembu..when every Pakistani male used to think of her as the greatest thing ever, you kinda had a more Indian type approach. so pray tell??

Re: # 107 to 103:

All these responses confirm my belief Mohammad, the Prophet of Islam is the First and the Last Muslim !

Kamath
15:16 Hrs. Chelsea, Co.Down

Re: # 107 to 103:

All these responses confirm my belief Mohammad, the Prophet of Islam is the First and the Last Muslim !

Kamath
15:16 Hrs. Chelsea, Co.Down

Re: # 106without doubt, stuka, without doubt.

BUt here we are talking about Islam, and the fact that there is "supposed to be" no intermediary between you and the great Goddess in the sky.

Those who have flown the coope are doing better than those who are ham sturng by gods minions.

Happened in the past Buddha, Islam, Christain Europe....and now again the hindus once more. Inbetween the chinese.

That is the issue. Ibn-Sina was an INDEPENDENT THINKER and had an equally independent mind.

Tell how many have that amongst themuslims today?

" This guy is often an ignorant little runt who has memorised a few things from the Prophets life, and maybe also from the Quran etc. For this guy any one with an independent mind is a threat - so he struts his stuff and his minions go about doing their bit on friday post prayer."

These very words could be used to describe the Brahmin in days gone by. If anything, it was the Brahmin's iron clad control on Hindu society that led to its self destruction. Today, in India's urban areas, and also in fact in rural, the Brahmin is nothing more than a provider of services. The lower casts (not the Dalits yet, but the Shudars like Jats etc.) are more empowered...leading to a more vital, uplifting Hinduism. Be it a Disco Jagran or a spiritual quest, the dependency and servility to the Brahman is gone.

Arjun: That is actualy not farfetched. Mohammad's first wife was an independent business woman who married a man much younger...and in the same country, women are not allowed to drive.

I think one thing Muslims are really good at is calling each other unIslamic. "True Islam" seems to be up there with the Unicorn and the Holy Grail in terms of myths. There are only two "true Muslims" ..one is the prophet, the other is the Muslim dude calling others unIslamic.

#101 Posted by masadi on December 14, 2007 6:50:49 am


Islam has absolutely nothing to do with lack of women's rights


If you're saying islam gives women rights while the reality is that women have the fewest rights in muslim countries in general and in islam's birthplace in particular..so the obvious conclusion is that most muslims don't follow islam..

Re: # 101
Masadi

For every enlightened version of islam such as yours and the Turkish ruling party’s there are the taliban and the wahabis of Saudi Arabia.

My understanding of Islam is limited. My understanding of a big difference between sunnis & shias is the former dont have an "intermediary" between self & Allah. In shias there ia an ayatollah who is kinda like an "intermediary"..rough metaphor is like a telephone operator between self & Allah.

Am I wrong?
If I'm right that a shia "mullah" commands more respect. A sunni mullah doesnt have that same privildge.

Could any muslim please educate me?
Thanks

aslam writes "It would be naïve to suggest that islam isn’t holding muslims back, which it certainly is, in so many different ways, to name a few, women’s rights, freedom of speech and lack of democracy"

Islam has absolutely nothing to do with lack of women's rights, in fact the Quran is most progressive regarding equality between the sexes, freedom of speech is allowed even to the extent of insulting Islam where the only advice to the Muslims, in the Quran, who don't like such speech is to not sit in such a gathering, and as far as democracy goes, total power is given to the people within certain edicts of social justice (which are not even one percent of the rules and laws found in modern bureaucratic "democratic" societies) to decide their own fate, the whole purpose, according to the Quran, behind this life being to see how they determine....If you don't know about Islam or the Quran (but base you knowledge on Mullah rants), might I politely suggest :Shut up about it.

kamath writes "Dear writer Feroz Qutabshahi:
I applaud your courage, self examination and quest for truth"

Going along with the official propaganda of the US elite, mainstreamed in order to push their farcial war on terror does not amount to either courage, self examination or quest for truth. It amounts to dimwitted cowardice where you try to kick the person who is already down trying to take advantage of his or her vulnerable position. Kulharee is just such an opportunist who might try to "reinforce" his American citizenship by such articles but regardless of how hard he tries, the white man will never consider him a citizen regardless of the paperwork he has done, the conditions he has met or the passport he carries. Come the right time all that will be worth shit as he is dragged in with the people he is baselessly railing against....

Dear writer Feroz Qutabshahi:
I applaud your courage, self examination and quest for truth. That is what is needed so badly, to bring in elements of change for refornmation in the Islamic world whose dynamism had declined many centuries ago. This is the beginning.

I wish you keep up your writings, for you are on the right side of history.

Kamath

saudi arabia has all the money in the world.

It could build modern schools and colleges all over the islamic world but it doesn't. Instead, it builds islamic academies and madrassahs that indoctrinate the next generation of islamofascists into rioting on every real or perceived insult to mo or his pet camel...including one in my own county.

And muslims all over the world who riot at the first sighting of a mo cartoon in a danish newspaper give them a pass.

It would be naïve to suggest that islam isn’t holding muslims back, which it certainly is, in so many different ways, to name a few, women’s rights, freedom of speech and lack of democracy but, to blame islam/ religion for all the problems of developing societies is naïve as well, as that pseudo-intellectual hersi ali seems to do.

She blames FGM on islam, yet mullahs condemn the practise, she holds islam responsible for somalia’s plight, yet knowing full well that rest of Africa is in a similar mess.

Feroz, two bits caught my eye. Let me quote them first

(a) We do it to boost the sense of our collective worth, while the westerners do it to lend added prestige and credibility to their ideas.

(b)The 800-pound gorilla in the Islamic room is not ignorance or violence, but the basis of present-day Islamic philosophy, i.e., the “Blind” faith in Quran and the Hadith. I say Blind, because to question it is to ask for the wrath of Mullah – Allah’s assistant.


These two are related, (yes, Masadi has already treated it and expounded on it). However, this connection is not my point/issue.

These two are connected in a subtle manner, and THAT COULD GIVE YOU A CLUE regarding why there are no more Ibn_sina's in the 21st century amonsg the muslims.

In days gone by, there was no one between you and your Goddess. You said your prayers directly to her, and then went about your daily routine as you saw it best.

These days as you suggest in quote (b) there is an intermediary. This guy is often an ignorant little runt who has memorised a few things from the Prophets life, and maybe also from the Quran etc. For this guy any one with an independent mind is a threat - so he struts his stuff and his minions go about doing their bit on friday post prayer.

This is fine when the world is way too big to comprehend. But this being the 21st century it is small. News and views travel pretty damn quickly. The common mass of people do feel as if they have been left behind in the line, and hence the quest for self-worth (your point(a)).

Those guys who have ignored these mullahs and done their own thing have prospered - Salaam for one. (he was also very religious just as Ibn-Sina was). Indeed most of the people on Chowk are like that (even though they strut about like a bunch of Conservatives neandrathals - they basically will tell the mullah to go take a flying jump if he even dares to interfere in their lives beyond a particular point).

Maybe you can make a start today......but what the heck if you are Kulharee then you have already done that...

Re: # 94

Array gabu,

Stop doing UPgiri on FP.

shhiiissshiiiiii.....shoooo shoooo karliya

ohoo haideri bhai naraz hoggayeyy mein to mirza sahab ki tareef kar raha tha...aap nahaq tilmila rahay hein qibla

shishapa bhai, a quick perusal of Mirza Ghulam Sahib's life, views, and objectives can help answer those questions.

Feroz:
I think your premise is wrong to begin with.
How many countries in Africa and Asia are backward which are not Islamic. And still their religion is not at fault. How come Hindu India advanced in some ways and not Hindu Nepal. How come Tamil in Srilanka are backward compared to Tamil in india.
Although few of your points are valid. But not all because of extreme diverse nature of Muslim countries and societies.
As far as priding on past scientists, it just reminds of the greatness of Muslim Empire at one time. It should not be a passport to laziness.
There are 2 aspects.
1- Islamic law or Shariat. Quite a few number of Islamic countries have Shariat Law but their stage of development and education and culture are vastly different. At one extreme is Malaysia and at another saudi Arabia.
Now what were the causes of downfall of Muslims and rise of Europe is a big question, and once we are more acceptable to current thinking and probably these kind of things are rewarded we might be able to do research and prevent future mistakes.
As far as equating adultery with conversation, I think in that para you confused two issues and think both are same.
Although I agree with the notion of Mulah acting as Allah's assistant is wrong. We all are Allah's assistant or "viceroy" on earth. As far as scripture being hollow, I don't know. It is a guide for the pious. There is no such thing as blind faith in Quran or Hadith. It is for understanding. There is absolutely no correlation between stagnation of a society and Islam. As per your own assertion Muslims have been at the peak of science and culture. The reason was not Islam even for Ibn-e-Sina. There is no correlation between Einsteins and Abdussalam's religion and their scientific pursuit.
You can put the question in this way. Do the so called Islamist put a brake to the development of society. It is possible but should not be a big factor.
Does current USA Government hinder and drag back the society and science by not allowing stem cell research etc. As you know there are ethical issues. Have you seen such ethical issues in any Islamic country.
Women emancipation will come with time and within our framework. To give you an example two of the prime minister in Bangladesh have been women and Pakistan a woman has been primeminister. (Although it does not in any way signify emancipation of women and with advancement emancipation will come).
There is debate in western society about the gay being Priest or not, in the same way we will also come to a certain conclusion regarding our outlook.
You are negating your own points by stating large number of women scholars in past.

Re: # 84

I do not know why and how Ahmadiyas put up with
these people! You should strive for you own country.
Look at the the contempt and hatred in the post!
These are vicious and nasty people in human garb.
And you guys prefered these creatures over hinjews
in 47? What were you guys thinking?

=== Interact Filtered ===
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Lila Abu-Lughod has worked on women's issues in the Middle East for over twenty years. She has authored and edited several books on the topic, including Writing Women's Worlds: Bedouin Stories (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1993), Remaking Women: Feminism and Modernity in the Middle East (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1998), and Veiled Sentiments: Honor and Poetry in a Bedouin Society (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1986). She is Professor of Anthropology and Women's and Gender Studies at Columbia University in New York.

In this interview with AsiaSource, Professor Abu-Lughod discusses women and Islam in the wake of the American war in Afghanistan.


Following the events of September 11th, the American public sphere has been saturated with discussions of what is unique about "Muslim" societies. To what extent is the character of Muslim societies determined by Islam? How can we begin to think about these societies, and what distinguishes them from our own?

Many aspects of societies around the world cannot be understood without reference to the history and influences of the major religions in terms of which people live their lives. This is just as true for people living in the Middle East, Africa, Southeast Asia and other Muslim regions as it is for those living in Europe and the United States, where Christianity has historically dominated. The point to stress is that despite this, it is just as unhelpful to reduce the complex politics, social dynamics, and diversity of lives in the U.S. to Christianity as it is to reduce these things to Islam in other regions. We should ask not how Muslim societies are distinguished from "our own" but how intertwined they are, historically and in the present, economically, politically, and culturally.

Muslim women have of course figured prominently in this public discussion. You have suggested recently that "understanding Muslim women" will not serve to explain anything. Could you elaborate on this claim?

Many of us have noticed that suddenly, after 9/11 and the American response of war in Afghanistan, the hunger for information about Muslim women seems insatiable. My own experience of this was in the form of an avalanche of invitations to appear on news programs and at universities and colleges. On the one hand I was pleased that my expertise was appreciated and that so many people wanted to know more about a subject I had spent twenty years studying. On the other hand, I was suspicious because it seemed that this desire to know about "women and Islam" was leading people away from the very issues one needed to examine in order to understand what had happened.

Those issues include the history of Afghanistan-with Soviet, U.S., Pakistani, and Saudi involvements; the dynamics of Islamist movements in the Middle East; the politics and economics of American support for repressive governments. Plastering neat cultural icons like "the Muslim woman" over messier historical and political narratives doesn't get you anywhere. What does this substitution accomplish? Why, one has to ask, didn't people rush to ask about Guatemalan wo