The Plan To Topple Pakistan Military

Well written article Mr. Qureshi:

I have been saying the same things on my own and I am glad that there is someone else who shares the same views. Please take a look at the following article by Prof. Michel Chossudovsky. You will find it very interesting as it supports yours article "The Plan to Topple the Pakistan Military" completely:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7705

Following is the e-mail received about the author, Mr Ahmed Quraishi.

Ahmed Quraishi's ''enlightening' ' articles have been doing the rounds on the net of late. One can only describe him as Pakistan's very own Bill O' Reilly (with just as much credibility! ). And like O' Reilly, his most used weapon of choice is the tag of 'traitor' and 'unpatriotic' for anyone who criticizes the government (or perhaps just el presidente, the now retired generalisimo) , be they politicians, journalists, lawyers, academics, human rights activists, former army officers et al. It seems Mr. Quraishi gets his inspiration (along with his fake American accent) from Fox News.

Even a cursory look at his website might help one understand Mr. Quraishi's "unbiased, journalistic, analytical, and professional " approach to issues he so passionately addresses in his articles. Mr. Quraishi's website is studded with countless gems that reflect the luminosity of his brilliance, breadth of vision, and intellectual maturity.

For instance, in the 'biography' section of ahmedquraishi. com, (also known as the ''tooting one's own horn' section) we are informed that "Starting in the year 2003, Mr. Quraishi has lent his expertise to FurmaanRealpolitik www.furmaanrealpoli tik.com.pk), a political consulting firm originally based in Dubai."

A look at the website of furmaanrealpolitik. com.pk . (who came up with this subtle name, one wonders?) helps answer questions people might entertain regarding Mr. Quraishi's credibilty, motives and unique understanding of national and international affairs.

The 'services' offered by furmaanrealpolitik include "Intelligence, Research & Analysis;" "Surveillance & Confidential Investigations; " "Mobilization & Campaign Development; " and (my personal favourite) "Immaculate Deception Creations Tailored to Your Senses."
This 'service' is not only my favourite for the brilliant title it boasts but also for its content:

'Immaculate Deception Creations Tailored to Your Senses'? Immaculate Deception... Are we talking about peddling untruths in order to deceive? Oh dear! So how do Mr. Quraishi and the boys at furmaanrealpolitik serve their clients? The website says: "Anyone can do TV. But we go a step further -- we create...Our production can be tailored to business, political and military requirements. "

So whether it is Benazir Bhutto or Nawaz Sharif or Pervez Musharaf or the ISI or Coca Cola or Tapal Danedar Chai, the ''passionate' ' team at furmaanrealpolitik will sell its services to the highest bidder and come up with ''immaculately deceptive'' techniques ''tailored'' to their respective ''senses'' (and by senses I am guessing Mr. Quraishi is not talking about a sense of decency here!).

Is Mr. Quraishi telling us that as part of a political consulting/lobbying firm that proudly lists on its website its expertise in conjuring up lies and deceptions, that he actually makes his living by peddling lies and untruths? Or as he calls them "immaculate deceptions?"

As an analyst and a journalist, what does this say about his work, his credibility?

Are we to understand that every word Mr.Quraishi pens is written on the behest of a client? Could it be that Mr. Quraishi's 'insightful and unique take on national and international affairs is as faux as his American accent and can vary depending on who bids the highest for his immaculately deceptive words?

In case Mr. Quraishi has misunderstood the meaning of the word deception and used it by mistake (and with the same casual attitude and effort with which he throws conspiracy theories and allegations about in his articles), let me offer the servies of my humble thesauraus. Alternatives for the word deception are listed as: dishonesty, trickery, fraud, con, sham, trick, ruse, cheating... etc.

Forget about out the rest of the world, I wonder how seriously his own son, little Al Waleed, would take daddy dearest the next time he is instructed not to lie and to always tell the truth!

The remaining "natural" Pakistan would lie entirely east of the Indus, except for a westward spur near Karachi.

I have quoted from part of the article that talks about independent karachi . i will send in the map also later. in 1947 at time of independence ,pakistan was being ruled by urduspeakers. the ruling eurduspeaking elite as a matter of policy encouraged urduspeakers to settle in karachi . karachi was the capital . liaquat ali khan had no base or votes in pakistan and he deliberately encourage the settlement of urduspeakers in karachi to create a base for himself . the quota system is based on urban and rural sind. it does not specifically mention the two ethnicities. urduspeakers are no more than 35% of population of sind. do u think its just that they have more than they share in public sector jobs when they already completely dominate the private sector in sind? jammat islami nodoubt opposed partition before 1947. however after that it has steadfastly been most anti-india. they are the most steadfast supporters of kashmir issue. there have been others who opposed partition but these people do not command the majority of votes in their communities. ANP doesnt have majority of pukhtoons behind it . GM Syed's party never won elections. But MQM has and time and time again . part if its success is its unbashed use of terror . but the fact is that urduspeakers support MQM.Even those who do not support MQM's tactics have sympathy with its ideology. In any case no one except altaf hussain has the audacity to go to delhi and in front of whole world declare partition the greatest blunder in human history. for the rest of pakistan , this is treachery enough. As for sindhis which sindhis u r talking about? whatever their political leanings be,they are against bringing back biharis, they consider the capture of their cities by urduspeakers a great disaster for them . but they are realistic. they came to terms with the fact that you guys cant be removed . but what did u guys do? you deprived ppp,which commands the voted of most sindhis of its due share of power in sind. in 2002 elections mqm had 41 seats in sind assembly and ppp had 68. yet musharaf a biased urduspeaker refused to give ppp a chance to form government . he handed over governorship of sind to a criminal who had once assaulted an army major , and the most important ministrues of finance and police to mqm . sindhis had no important ministry in sind government during 2002-2007.

I meet a lot people. and i know their emotions. you can not imagine the anger felt at mqm for may 12 in punjab and nwfp. the NWFP assembly even passed a resoloution on this. nawaz sharif is a very keena parwar man and he will not spare mqm. one day judicary will be restored and then there will be proper investigation of may 12. justu wait and see.

{When i talk of IBA,LUMS, i am raising a totally valid point . I am talking about the complete superiority that urduspeakers have over sindhis because they control the cities.}
I don't get the point. When Mohajir migrated they were given those places in Karachi and Hyderabad and stayed there.

{In India there are quotas RESERVED IN every college,university for lower caste hindus and people accept that . But when quotas are instituted in pakistan to help lift sindhis , urduspeakers start growling and complaining . The point is that Urduspeakers have no cause to complain }
Do you think it was illogical to complain about quota system which is discriminatory against Mohajir (although I was in favor of it)

They are the most richest and prosperous community yet they have the audacity to declare partition a blunder.

that is your opinion. Many in Pakistan have written on partition and many were against partition. Most prominent among them Jamat-e-Islami. Lot of Muslim leaders from all parts of Pakistan were against partition. If you think all Mohajirs think partition is a blunder, then you should correct yourself.

{On this website i see tons and tons of hatred pumped against punjab and its people by urduspeakers and mqm supporters}

I really cannot guess by name who is mqm supporter and who is urduspeaker on this board. How do you know they are not punjabi, Pathan, Baluch, Sindhi, bengali or Indian.

{Punjabi industrial class grew mainly after 1977. before that punjabis had negligible presence in trade,commerce and industry}

That is your opinion. Textile, sports good, mechanical products have been in Punjab. If you need I will provide you with sources.

{The bottomline is that MQM is a terrorist organization that has ties with india. it has sworn to separate karachi }

Is that your opinion or you have some information like manifesto etc

{ the bottomline is that karachites are determined to deny the sindhis their fair share of power in sind .}

A lot of Sindhis have moved to Karachi. And they think development of Karachi has been good for Sind and Sindhis.

{We the rest of pakistan will no longerallow that}
Who is WE. Are you rest of Pakistan meaning only a single person or are there few more like you.

{just you wait and see . very soon ashfaq kiyani who is a glorious punjabi will withdraw support from mush dehalvi . nawaz sharif and bb will oust mush . In Sind ,Mqm will be banned . Altaf Hussain and his thugs will be tried for May12 massacre . Any attempt by MQM to use violence will be most ruthlessly crushed}

This is just pathetic. Do you want any comment on this.

Sir this is your link, I don't see anything.
:http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899

COMMENTARYsubsc ribe | email | print | continue the debate Blood borders
How a better Middle East would look
By Ralph Peters
International borders are never completely just. But the degree of injustice they inflict upon those whom frontiers force together or separate makes an enormous difference — often the difference between freedom and oppression, tolerance and atrocity, the rule of law and terrorism, or even peace and war.

The most arbitrary and distorted borders in the world are in Africa and the Middle East. Drawn by self-interested Europeans (who have had sufficient trouble defining their own frontiers), Africa's borders continue to provoke the deaths of millions of local inhabitants. But the unjust borders in the Middle East — to borrow from Churchill — generate more trouble than can be consumed locally.

While the Middle East has far more problems than dysfunctional borders alone — from cultural stagnation through scandalous inequality to deadly religious extremism — the greatest taboo in striving to understand the region's comprehensive failure isn't Islam but the awful-but-sacrosanct international boundaries worshipped by our own diplomats.

Of course, no adjustment of borders, however draconian, could make every minority in the Middle East happy. In some instances, ethnic and religious groups live intermingled and have intermarried. Elsewhere, reunions based on blood or belief might not prove quite as joyous as their current proponents expect. The boundaries projected in the maps accompanying this article redress the wrongs suffered by the most significant "cheated" population groups, such as the Kurds, Baluch and Arab Shia, but still fail to account adequately for Middle Eastern Christians, Bahais, Ismailis, Naqshbandis and many another numerically lesser minorities. And one haunting wrong can never be redressed with a reward of territory: the genocide perpetrated against the Armenians by the dying Ottoman Empire.

Yet, for all the injustices the borders re-imagined here leave unaddressed, without such major boundary revisions, we shall never see a more peaceful Middle East.

Even those who abhor the topic of altering borders would be well-served to engage in an exercise that attempts to conceive a fairer, if still imperfect, amendment of national boundaries between the Bosporus and the Indus. Accepting that international statecraft has never developed effective tools — short of war — for readjusting faulty borders, a mental effort to grasp the Middle East's "organic" frontiers nonetheless helps us understand the extent of the difficulties we face and will continue to face. We are dealing with colossal, man-made deformities that will not stop generating hatred and violence until they are corrected.

As for those who refuse to "think the unthinkable," declaring that boundaries must not change and that's that, it pays to remember that boundaries have never stopped changing through the centuries. Borders have never been static, and many frontiers, from Congo through Kosovo to the Caucasus, are changing even now (as ambassadors and special representatives avert their eyes to study the shine on their wingtips).

Oh, and one other dirty little secret from 5,000 years of history: Ethnic cleansing works.

Begin with the border issue most sensitive to American readers: For Israel to have any hope of living in reasonable peace with its neighbors, it will have to return to its pre-1967 borders — with essential local adjustments for legitimate security concerns. But the issue of the territories surrounding Jerusalem, a city stained with thousands of years of blood, may prove intractable beyond our lifetimes. Where all parties have turned their god into a real-estate tycoon, literal turf battles have a tenacity unrivaled by mere greed for oil wealth or ethnic squabbles. So let us set aside this single overstudied issue and turn to those that are studiously ignored.

The most glaring injustice in the notoriously unjust lands between the Balkan Mountains and the Himalayas is the absence of an independent Kurdish state. There are between 27 million and 36 million Kurds living in contiguous regions in the Middle East (the figures are imprecise because no state has ever allowed an honest census). Greater than the population of present-day Iraq, even the lower figure makes the Kurds the world's largest ethnic group without a state of its own. Worse, Kurds have been oppressed by every government controlling the hills and mountains where they've lived since Xenophon's day.

The U.S. and its coalition partners missed a glorious chance to begin to correct this injustice after Baghdad's fall. A Frankenstein's monster of a state sewn together from ill-fitting parts, Iraq should have been divided into three smaller states immediately. We failed from cowardice and lack of vision, bullying Iraq's Kurds into supporting the new Iraqi government — which they do wistfully as a quid pro quo for our good will. But were a free plebiscite to be held, make no mistake: Nearly 100 percent of Iraq's Kurds would vote for independence.

As would the long-suffering Kurds of Turkey, who have endured decades of violent military oppression and a decades-long demotion to "mountain Turks" in an effort to eradicate their identity. While the Kurdish plight at Ankara's hands has eased somewhat over the past decade, the repression recently intensified again and the eastern fifth of Turkey should be viewed as occupied territory. As for the Kurds of Syria and Iran, they, too, would rush to join an independent Kurdistan if they could. The refusal by the world's legitimate democracies to champion Kurdish independence is a human-rights sin of omission far worse than the clumsy, minor sins of commission that routinely excite our media. And by the way: A Free Kurdistan, stretching from Diyarbakir through Tabriz, would be the most pro-Western state between Bulgaria and Japan.

A just alignment in the region would leave Iraq's three Sunni-majority provinces as a truncated state that might eventually choose to unify with a Syria that loses its littoral to a Mediterranean-oriented Greater Lebanon: Phoenecia reborn. The Shia south of old Iraq would form the basis of an Arab Shia State rimming much of the Persian Gulf. Jordan would retain its current territory, with some southward expansion at Saudi expense. For its part, the unnatural state of Saudi Arabia would suffer as great a dismantling as Pakistan.

A root cause of the broad stagnation in the Muslim world is the Saudi royal family's treatment of Mecca and Medina as their fiefdom. With Islam's holiest shrines under the police-state control of one of the world's most bigoted and oppressive regimes — a regime that commands vast, unearned oil wealth — the Saudis have been able to project their Wahhabi vision of a disciplinarian, intolerant faith far beyond their borders. The rise of the Saudis to wealth and, consequently, influence has been the worst thing to happen to the Muslim world as a whole since the time of the Prophet, and the worst thing to happen to Arabs since the Ottoman (if not the Mongol) conquest.

While non-Muslims could not effect a change in the control of Islam's holy cities, imagine how much healthier the Muslim world might become were Mecca and Medina ruled by a rotating council representative of the world's major Muslim schools and movements in an Islamic Sacred State — a sort of Muslim super-Vatican — where the future of a great faith might be debated rather than merely decreed. True justice — which we might not like — would also give Saudi Arabia's coastal oil fields to the Shia Arabs who populate that subregion, while a southeastern quadrant would go to Yemen. Confined to a rump Saudi Homelands Independent Territory around Riyadh, the House of Saud would be capable of far less mischief toward Islam and the world.

Iran, a state with madcap boundaries, would lose a great deal of territory to Unified Azerbaijan, Free Kurdistan, the Arab Shia State and Free Baluchistan, but would gain the provinces around Herat in today's Afghanistan — a region with a historical and linguistic affinity for Persia. Iran would, in effect, become an ethnic Persian state again, with the most difficult question being whether or not it should keep the port of Bandar Abbas or surrender it to the Arab Shia State.

What Afghanistan would lose to Persia in the west, it would gain in the east, as Pakistan's Northwest Frontier tribes would be reunited with their Afghan brethren (the point of this exercise is not to draw maps as we would like them but as local populations would prefer them). Pakistan, another unnatural state, would also lose its Baluch territory to Free Baluchistan. The remaining "natural" Pakistan would lie entirely east of the Indus, except for a westward spur near Karachi.

The city-states of the United Arab Emirates would have a mixed fate — as they probably will in reality. Some might be incorporated in the Arab Shia State ringing much of the Persian Gulf (a state more likely to evolve as a counterbalance to, rather than an ally of, Persian Iran). Since all puritanical cultures are hypocritical, Dubai, of necessity, would be allowed to retain its playground status for rich debauchees. Kuwait would remain within its current borders, as would Oman.

In each case, this hypothetical redrawing of boundaries reflects ethnic affinities and religious communalism — in some cases, both. Of course, if we could wave a magic wand and amend the borders under discussion, we would certainly prefer to do so selectively. Yet, studying the revised map, in contrast to the map illustrating today's boundaries, offers some sense of the great wrongs borders drawn by Frenchmen and Englishmen in the 20th century did to a region struggling to emerge from the humiliations and defeats of the 19th century.

Correcting borders to reflect the will of the people may be impossible. For now. But given time — and the inevitable attendant bloodshed — new and natural borders will emerge. Babylon has fallen more than once.

Meanwhile, our men and women in uniform will continue to fight for security from terrorism, for the prospect of democracy and for access to oil supplies in a region that is destined to fight itself. The current human divisions and forced unions between Ankara and Karachi, taken together with the region's self-inflicted woes, form as perfect a breeding ground for religious extremism, a culture of blame and the recruitment of terrorists as anyone could design. Where men and women look ruefully at their borders, they look enthusiastically for enemies.

From the world's oversupply of terrorists to its paucity of energy supplies, the current deformations of the Middle East promise a worsening, not an improving, situation. In a region where only the worst aspects of nationalism ever took hold and where the most debased aspects of religion threaten to dominate a disappointed faith, the U.S., its allies and, above all, our armed forces can look for crises without end. While Iraq may provide a counterexample of hope — if we do not quit its soil prematurely — the rest of this vast region offers worsening problems on almost every front.

If the borders of the greater Middle East cannot be amended to reflect the natural ties of blood and faith, we may take it as an article of faith that a portion of the bloodshed in the region will continue to be our own.

Bhai Jan , property par qabza karnay kay liay sara drama kia.Wahan Bombay or Gujrat kay na laiq mussalman memons nay Jinnah ko blank cheque dia.Sab Rokray kee game thee.

SOK,

The % age of Muslim population in India was around 10% in 1951 it is about 15% now. While the Hindus and Sikhs have been decimated from around 25% in Punjab and Sind (in 1940s) to les than 2% now. So figure out who has been more hostile to its minorities!!!

As far as population figures are concerned, do back it up with authentic sources, if you can. And for your information, www.Dalitsan.org and www.Lal Masjid.com is not considered authentic!!!

Re: Bengal One distt Khulna which was 50-50 went to Pak and so did the Chittagong Hills which was almost 100% Buddhist. In turn one Muslim majority distt (I think Murshidabad went to India). So even Stevens.

(16000 muslim women and children were recovered from indian punjab while a little over 8000 non-muslims were recovered from our side. )

Which means I guess that the remaining 8,000 Kaffiroons had either been murdered or exported to Kingdom of Saudi Arabia!!!

Regards

Re: # 150:--

The Muslim League politicians in West Punjab planned the murder of Master Tara Singh's old mother in Gujar Khan Tehsil of Pindi first.This was the first incident in Punjab you bigoted man.All to grab property of Hindus and Sikhs the elite of Punjab.All for money.Massacres in West Punjab were as well organised as East Punjab .Thats why there are no Hindus and Sikhs in West Punjab.Even Sardar Shaukat Hayat acknowledged this.Read his book you ignoramus.

Gurdaspur was 51% muslims without the qadianis . out of 4 tehsins , pathankot had a high concentration of non-muslims (70%)thats . in other tehsils muslims were 60% and above. but battala and gurdaspur were handed over to india just because nehru wanted a landlink to india . even MJ Akbar accepts that nehru prevailed over mountbatten to get gurdaspur distruct . i have already mentioned Ferozepure and zira,jalandhar,ajnala. patiala , kapurthala ,chamba states were 60% muslims but had sikh rulers who acceded to india. in bengal too there was great deal of gerrymandering by mountbatten . i will present complete details tommorow. u insist on lying. Amritsar was 46% muslim . infact muslims were the largest community there,only the combined number of sikhs and hindus was greater than 46% otherwise individually these communities were smaller than muslims numerically in amritsar.


The muder and massacre in east punjab was systematic , organized and completely state sponsored. The British head of boundary Force has clearly stated this in his memoirs"while memory serves". the cruelties in westpunjab were not systematic but more of a retaliation. after partition when kidnapped children and women were exchanged,16000 muslim women and children were recovered from indian punjab while a little over 8000 non-muslims were recovered from our side. this clearly shows who suffered more.

SOK,

(muslim league won the elections in 1946 in punjab .)

Rashid mian has not challenged that at all. His point is that it was only as LATE as 1946 that Punjab went over to the ML and Pakistan cause. Till that time the Unionists who were anti-Pak had ruled the roost.

(punjab's sacrifices )

What sacrifice? They merely gave up districts which were not Muslim majority to begin with. What sacrifice is involved in giving up what does not belong to you in the first place? Besides the West Punjabi Muslims gained a lot of land and property by looting the Hindus and Sikhs who left, they owned most of the land and property in West Punjab and Sind. Besides, while it is true that Punjabi Muslims in East Punjab suffered a lot (murder, rape and looting) they equally committed atrocities on Hindus and Sikhs in W Punjab. (Btw, I EQUALLY condemn atrocties by both sides) West Punjabi Muslims suffered nothing and gained a lot.

(Gurdaspur was 51% muslim )

Gurdaspur was 51% Muslim only if you falsely include Qadianis as Muslims. And as we all know (thanks to the preachings of Maulana Urstruly (pbuh)) that Qadianis are not Muslims. Gurdaspur was non-Muslim and belonged to India.

Regards

punjab never joined late. urduspeakers deliberately harp in this point in order to magnify their efforts in freedom struggle . muslim league won the elections in 1946 in punjab . the punjab assembly voted overwhelmingly ,infact all muslims members voted to divide the province . punjab's sacrifices are the biggest and most important. kashmir was never allowed to decide. the assembly that acceded to india in 1950s was a bogus assembly where most members were elected unopposed. nobody recognizes them .
You say that after independence pakistan told muslims in india to stay in india. There was no conception i repeat no conception of transfer of population in any speech of jinnah . In any case tell me can pakistan accomodate all the indian muslims?can we ? I still see lot of indian muslims marrying in pakistan and moving to pakistan . pakistan's first priority is its own original inhabitants and not distant cousins in UP,CP. The fact is that initially Muslim League was not even very popular in UP,CP. in 1937 elections it did not win the majority of seats reserved for muslims in UP,CP.

When i talk of IBA,LUMS, i am raising a totally valid point . I am talking about the complete superiority that urduspeakers have over sindhis because they control the cities. In India there are quotas RESERVED IN every college,university for lower caste hindus and people accept that . But when quotas are instituted in pakistan to help lift sindhis , urduspeakers start growling and complaining . The point is that Urduspeakers have no cause to complain . They are the most richest and prosperous community yet they have the audacity to declare partition a blunder, their organization MQM gets arms from india and is openly conspiring to break pakistan.On this website i see tons and tons of hatred pumped against punjab and its people by urduspeakers and mqm supporters.

Punjabi industrial class grew mainly after 1977. before that punjabis had negligible presence in trade,commerce and industry. Where did u get this list?? What is the source ?? Even if this list were to be believed , there is only 1 sindhi in it and 10 karachites. No correct estimate of asif zardari's wealth exists. infact although he is from sind,he is not sindhi but a seraiki settled in sindhi.

you had asked me earlier about the map of pakistan by US thinktanks. here is the
link:http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899




The bottomline is that MQM is a terrorist organization that has ties with india. it has sworn to separate karachi . the bottomline is that karachites are determined to deny the sindhis their fair share of power in sind . We the rest of pakistan will no longerallow that . just you wait and see . very soon ashfaq kiyani who is a glorious punjabi will withdraw support from mush dehalvi . nawaz sharif and bb will oust mush . In Sind ,Mqm will be banned . Altaf Hussain and his thugs will be tried for May12 massacre . Any attempt by MQM to use violence will be most ruthlessly crushed .

Hey,

This article shows the paranoia of the ISI in PAkistan.
ISI is now witnessing a "counter-Jehad" against them- that is making them jittery- that is dangerous because ISI can very well smuggle a few bombs to Osama on a container to NY!!

Son of Kashmir:
I don't understand your logic.
Pakistan came into being voluntarily.
All the assemblies or ruler decided to join voluntarily because of your initial premise that all provinces joining will be autonomous. When people of Punjab joined (although late) they knew that they are joining Pakistan. Kashmir although never joined Pakistan and its assembly passed resolution to join India in 1954 or 1956, still Kashmiris were treated as if they are Pakistani (just because there was no plebiscite to find out what the people of Kashmir want).
Other thing after independence to prevent the flood of migrants Pakistan told Indian Muslims to stay in India.
Another thing because of Islamic relationship some states surrounded by India still decided to join Pakistan like Junagadh and Hyderabad.
There is no question that Memon and Chinioti businessmen contributed a great deal for the Industrialization of Pakistan, but as I told even at middle businessman level it is the growth of cities in Punjab like Faisalabad, Gujrat, Gujranwala, and not in any other province. Which suggest that business mainly grew in Punjab. On another level I will give you the current list of most rich people in Pakistan and you will see how the relationship has changed.

1 - Mian Muhammad Mansha Yaha Pakistan
Ranking: 1 Worth: £1.25b ($2.5billion)Industry: Businessman

2 - Asif Ali Zardari Pakistan
Ranking: 2 Worth: £900m ($1.8billion) Industry: Politics

3 - Sir Anwar Pervaiz UK
Ranking: 3 Worth: £750m ($1.5billion) Industry: Businessman

4 - Nawaz Sharif & Shahbaz Sharif family Saudi Arabia/Pakistan
Ranking: 4 Worth: £700m ($1.4billion) Industry: Politics/Businessman

5 - Saddaruddin Hashwani Pakistan
Ranking: 5 Worth: £550m ($1.1billion) Industry: Businessman

6 - Nasir Schon & family U.A.E/Pakistan
Ranking: 6 (tied at 6) Worth: £500m ($1billion) Industry: Businessman

7 - Abdul Razzaq Yakoub & family U.A.E
Ranking: 6 (tied at 6) Worth: £500m ($1billion) Industry: Businessman

8 - Rafiq Habib & Rasheed Habib Pakistan
Ranking: 7 Worth: £450m ($900) Industry: Businessman

9 - Tariq Saigol & Nasim Saigol Pakistan
Ranking: 8 Worth: £425m ($850) Industry: Businessman

10 - Dewan Yousaf Farooqui Pakistan
Ranking: 9 (tied at 9) Worth: £400m ($800) Industry: Businessman

11 - Sultan Ali Lakhani & family Pakistan
Ranking: 9 (tied at 9) Worth: £400m ($800) Industry: Businessman

13 - Sheikh Abid Hussain alias Seth Abid Pakistan
Ranking: 10 Worth: £390m ($780) Industry: Businessman

14 - Mian Mohammed Latif Pakistan
Ranking:11 Worth: £350m ($700) Industry: Businessman

15 - Haji Abdul Ghafoor & Haji Bashir Ahmed Pakistan
Ranking: 12 Worth: £330m ($660) Industry: Businessman

16 - Sheikhani Family Pakistan
Ranking: 13 Worth: £300m ($600) Industry: Businessman

17 - Razzaq Dawood Pakistan/UAE
Ranking: 14 (tied at 14) Worth: £250m ($500) Industry: Businessman

18 - Byram Dinshawji Avari Pakistan
Ranking: 14 (tied at 14) Worth: £250m ($500) Industry: Businessman

Anyway you can see the list and is about the same.
The important thing is how much the common man benefited from being rich from Karachi or Punjab.
On another count most of these businessman are National or Multinational, for example Urdu speaking Mohajir has business in Punjab, and Punjabi speaking businessman has business in Karachi. Whatever way you argue important thing is equitable distribution and development of all parts of Pakistan.

As far as Urdu speaking vs Sindhi speaking in LUMS and IBA they have their own exam and merit and are private institutions. What is the point. For your information hailing in Karachi does not mean Mohajir, there are Punjabi, Pathan, Sindhi etc who compete together.
Lets take this discussion on another board.
I am putting the list of Pakistan top 10 rich on that forum, so you know which board to go to.

Interesting analysis.I agree that Ahmad Qureshi has made some wild assertions.However as I see it the USA as Marx said may not be creating history but it makes use of a situation that it inherits.Like it made use of 9/11 to occupy Afghanistan......a great strategic attack .....larger in dimension than Operation Barbarossa!About the Zia crash I have some observations ! While reading declassified CIA archives from the CIA History Staff I came upon a passge of the CIA reports in 1997 ...." after the Soviet withdrawal US relations with Zia will become complicated" ! As an officer of the 1st Armoured Division when Zia crash occurred I also met many direct witnesses in 1988 including the major who was incharge of despatching the dead bodies by air ! The major stated that while alive Zia's arrival brought every one to the airport but on despatch he had few soldiers with clothes tied on face to avoid the stench.Even the official Airforce report stated sabotage to be the cause.The incident could be a CIA operation or a KGB operation.General Zia was not toeing the American line.In this scenario US relations with the Musharraf regime are good.However it appears that they want Benazir in the future power set up.Perhaps they hope that Benazir will be able to deliver.Although with Benazir's team as it stands I have grave doubts if she can deliver ! This is the pattern in history ! The English East India Company also first used local collaborators and once they outlived their utility the English stepped in ! Sooner or later the Americans will physically intervene ! This is why they made Afghanistan their base of operations ! Its going to be a very complicated,bloody and sticky affair ! The line between right and wrong would be blurred ! A confusion in principle has already been introduced ! Generals have forgiven the corruption of politicians and politicans have also forgiven te general.The elite is the same ! Both the civil and military first collaborated with the British an are collaborating with the Americans since 1947.The policy was initiated by Jinnah.The same story as Punjab collaboration of 1857 and now the collaboration with USA.Pakistan was not created for the common man.

Re: # 143:-- I am referring to Son of Kashmir saying that Qadiani treachery was instrumental in Gurdaspurs accession to India ! May be he thinks that Mountbatten was a Qadiani !

How can you prove Qadiani treachery ? Its a conspiracy theory gone mad ! Were all the Muslim soldiers from Punjab who collaborated with the British against Muslims in 1857 or against the tribal Pashtuns Qadianis ?

Ayub Khan was a Pathan by race only.Linguistically and culturally he was a Punjabi.It should be noted that in 1946 only 5 % of India's population was the vote bank.The Punjabi feudal members of the Unionist Party joined the Muslim League in between 1942 and 1945 in large numbers because they were in heavy debt to Hindu money lenders.The Memon Muslims of Bombay and Gujrat financed the Muslim League because they could not compete with the Hindu business men.The Hindustani Muslims also voted for Muslim League because they ccould not compete with Hindus in the ICA.Out of 87 Muslims in all India between 1900 and 1944 only 28 out of 87 had cleared the ICS exam.The rest came on Muslim quota without passing te ICS exam .

Mr.RASHID

I do not know why you bring in Sir Sikander Hayat Khan . He died in 1942 . The bottomline is that by the time elections were held in 1946, Punjabi muslims had turned towards Pakistan.Thats what counts . Had Punjab not sacrificed , there would be no pakistan . End of story.

So do not complain that Punjab takes away the tax revenue of karachi , do not complain that most soldiers are from punjab . We went through fire and hell . Do u know that the forced migration in punjab was the greatest migration in human history?

You had earlier denied the fact that Urduspeakers and Karachites control the country's industrial wealth . I stand by my assertion that Karachites have far greater wealth than that they deserve according to their population. Today an article has been published in Dawn newspaper"People who own greatest amount of wealth''. First it lists the 19 OUT OF 22 families of pre-1971 era. many of these are Karachites. Infact it was Karachi and the Urduspeaking Buisnesss elite that was responsible for the economic exploitation of bengal . The bengalis used to blame punjabis for economic exploitation but the fact was the exploitation was being done by Karachites . WHEN THIS list of 22 families was revealed by Dr. mahbub-ulhaq he was kicked out of the cabinet by the pathan Ayub Khan . And Mind you ,Mahbub-ul-haq was a punjabi!

The DAWN Article also list the names of the current 40 richest families. Again large number of them are karachites like: Hashoo, Habib,Dewan lakson,bawany,arif habib,dadhabhoy tapal,seth abid,tabani,sheikhani. I frankly admit that in this list there are many families from punjab . But then that's that . Punjab is 55 % of the population of pakiland and it will only be natural that they will have great presence in industry . But what about Karachites?? You are no more than 7-8% of country's population but you shares of industrial wealth is 5-6 times more than your due share . There is not a single i repeat a single sindhi industrial group in both the 1968 list and the New list . Similarly there is no baluchi . If any one has the right to complain it is sindhis and baluchis and not yu guys. Do you know that less than 10 percent of IBA students are Sindhis , that the Karachites and Urduspeakers outnumber sindhis by 10 to 1 in LUMS.Despite all this , you still want to bring in biharis from bangladesh? Q

Then there is a book ''The Industrial Concentration and Economic power in Pakistan" written by a gora Lawrence White . This book has different figures but the conclusion is the same . In 1970, 42 groups controlled trade and industry . Of these 24 were from Karachi 12 were from punjab ,5 were from NWFP. iN 1997, 45 FAMILIES controlled trade and industry . Of these 24 were from punjab ,18 were from karachi and 3 from NWFP. iF YOU WANT TO KNOW more about this , check this link

http://richpaki.tripod.com/whoowns.htm

One of the reasons why karachites hate ppp is that its nationalization broke their monoply over trade and industry . Zia finished bhutto but even he is disliked by karachites because he generously pampered the punjabi industrialist . it was during his time that Ittefaq grouo, chaudhry shujjat group emerged . Despite that karachites still own large share of industrial wealth . And when it comes to stock exchange and property market and media , there KARACHITES completely dominate . Infact Musharafs govt studiously avoided taxing stockexchange and real estate . I hope and pray that when nawaz sharif or benazir take over and mush is gone , these 2 sectors are throughly taxed and the stock market crash scandal is thoroughly investigated and those caught punished INSHALLAH TALLAH!

Gurdaspur was 51% muslim 4 percent christain , 4 percent qadianis and rest was hindusikh . had it not been for qadiani treachery , the division might have gone to us . fEROZEPUR ,ZIRA.ajnala,jalandhar

Sonof Kashmir.
{At the time of partition , Muslim people of NWFP and Punjab had come out vehemently in favor of Pakistan . Check your facts . In 1946 election ,Muslim League won 75 out of the 86 seats reserved for muslims in the punjab assembly.}

{Punjab’s Pakistan
By RSN Singh
Issue: Vol 22.4The part that constitutes the Punjab province in Pakistan, like other provinces of Sindh, NWFP and Balochistan, were not enthusiastic about the concept of Pakistan. It was much later, in the early 1940s, that the Muslim League made strong inroads into Sindh and Punjab. Finally, when they did decide to join the Pakistan Movement, their aspirations and motivations differed from that of the mohajirs and Jinnah. Jinnah acutely realised that Punjab was central to his idea of Pakistan. The undivided Punjab province had 56.2 percent Muslims. The Muslim League was a negligible force in the 1936-37 elections. It had won only one seat out of 84 Muslim seats in the province. Determined to make inroads into Punjab, Jinnah entered into a pact (known as the Jinnah-Sikander Pact) with the ruling Unionist Party leader Sir Sikander Hyat Khan. According to the pact, Sir Sikander conceded to Jinnah’s claim of being the sole spokesman of Indian Muslims, and in turn, Jinnah promised not to interfere in the politics of Punjab. Taking advantage of the pact-an indirect foothold in the province-Jinnah chose Punjab to declare the famous Lahore Resolution in March 1940, which categorically envisaged the creation of an independent and sovereign Muslims state. Sir Sikander resented the resolution, but could not bring himself to oppose it publicly, thus the Unionist Party became a party to it.1 The Unionist Party’s dominance in Punjab began to wane after the death of Sir Sikander in 1942 and resulted in the consequent rise of Jinnah.

In the annual session of the Muslim League in Delhi in 1943, Jinnah said, “I regret to say that the Punjab has not yet played the part it ought to play, and is entitled to play because remember Punjab is the corner stone of Pakistan. I particularly appeal to the delegates of Punjab, when you go back please - I would not say anything more - please substitute the love of Islam and your nation in the place of sectional interest, jealousies, tribal notions and selfishness.�2 Jinnah by political machinations further undermined the Unionist ministry of Khizar Hayat Khan Tiwana and ensured the rapid ascendance of the Muslim League in Punjab between 1944 and 1947. He resorted to rabid and unabashed use of Islam and its symbols. Jinnah targeted the critical political constituency of the Unionist Party, i.e. the Muslim landed elite, the pirs (sufi saints) and Sajjada-Nashin (custodians of sufi shrines). As a result, the Hindus and the Sikhs gravitated towards the Congress in large numbers. The divide increasingly became irreconcilable. In the 1946 provincial elections, the Muslim League won 75 of the 86 Muslim seats in Punjab. The Congress and Akali Dal won 57 (56.8 percent in general con-stituencies) and 21 (40.7 percent in Sikh constituencies) seats respectively. A coalition government of Unionists-Akali Dal-Congress under Tiwana came to power. Under intense pressure and deteriorating political situation, Tiwana resigned in March 1947, thus finally paving the way for Pakistan.}

{The next year (sic 1941), Sikander made plain in the Provincial Assembly, on March 11, that his conception of Pakistan differed fundamentally from Jinnah's; "A Muslim Raj here and a Hindu Raj elsewhere, if that is what Pakistan means, I will have nothing to do with it." He was opposed to the partition of India. ) Frontline March 2005

(Following independence, the NWFP voted to join Pakistan in a referendum in 1947.} Wikipedia

{I am refferring to Allama Iqbal who presented the idea of Pakistan in a session of Muslim League in Allahabad in 1930. It was a punjabi student who first came up with the name 'Pakistan'' Chaudhry Rahmat Ali in 1933. Punjabi Muslims gave the greatest sacrifices to make Pakistan possible. In order to make Pakistan possible , Punjab agrreed to its division . It lost several muslim majority districts ,Gurdaspur,Bata,Ajnala,Jalandhar,Batala, Ferozepure,Zira to India thanks to Mountbatten's manipulation.In order to make Pakistan possible ,Punjab had to part with its 3 rivers . In a space of just 10 weeks, 8 million muslims from east punjab were uprooted, 75000 muslims were raped, 2000 muslim women were kidnapped and sold into slavery}

Agreed.

{Yet inspite of these sacrifices there are mischievious people especially in karachi who deny this and say that it was the urduspeakers who made pakistan possible}

Pakistan would not be possible without so called Urdu speaking. Particularly Jinnah made possible the dream of Pakistan. There is no question that Pakistan would not be possible without the parts now comprising Pakistan anyway. But politics of these regions would not give an outlook of Pan Islamism to the political leaders of these areas (meaning Unionist party etc)

{The division of India was actually division of punjab and bengal . in bengal no violence took place thanks to the efforts of suharwardy and gandhi . but in punjab,hell broke loose}
That is true and it also depended on leadership of Bengal.

(Finally there was a referendum in NWFP before partition in July 1947 . People of NWFP were asked whether they wanted to join India or Pakistan and they voted 97 % for Pakistan}
Agree.

135#Sonof kashmir.
Have you seen Liyari, Lea Market and Timber market. It is likely administrative.

The Pakistanis are in the habit of blaming the Indians for every wrong thing.The Bengalis were the majority Muslims but first they were sidelined by the Hindustani Muslims who despite being a minority dominated the All India Muslim League from 1906 to 1951.Later they were sidelined by the Punjabi Muslims who dominated Pakistani politics because of having acquired a strong position in the army by collaborating with the British from 1857 to 1947.

The BLA and Baitullah Mahsud are a natural result of a series of injustices perpetrated on the tribal and Baloch Muslims.

The Pashtuns were used by Zia as cannon fodder in the Afghan War d the result is the present crisis in NWFP.

The Pakistan Army is the best and most reliable collaborator of USA , so why should make any plan to topple it ? See the army's role in 1857, in 1930, in 1942.Except the Ranghar Muslims,Afridis,Wazirs and Mahsuds who fought against the British ?

Sonofkashmir,

(At the time of partition , Muslim people of NWFP and Punjab had come out vehemently in favor of Pakistan.)

Very true. But the demand for partition had first been popularised by Bengalis and minority province Muslims, not Punjus/Pathans. They were very late converts to Pakistan.

(In order to make Pakistan possible , Punjab agrreed to its division.)

So did Bengal. And why not? Afterall if India had to be divided on Hindu-Muslims grounds, why not Punjab and Bengal? If it is OK to divide a nation on religious grounds so is it to divide a province.

(It lost several muslim majority districts , Gurdaspur etc. )

Only Gurdaspur distt. was Muslim majority and that too only if you include Ahmedis as Muslims and as we all know Ahmedis are not Muslims.


(thanks to Mountbatten's manipulation.)

Is it the Injuns fault that MAJ (pbuh) called himself a rose and Lord and Lady M two thorns?

(in bengal no violence took place thanks to the efforts of suharwardy and gandhi.)

You mention MKG as one of the persons who prevented violence? Wait till YLH hears it and then you've had it!!!

Regards

On lyari

http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/02/local11.htm

I am quoting from this article "Under the new local body system, the locality has been given the status of a town, but its commercial areas including Lea Market and Timber Market have been excluded from its limits, thereby depriving the town of its main revenue earners.''

At the time of partition , Muslim people of NWFP and Punjab had come out vehemently in favor of Pakistan . Check your facts . In 1946 election ,Muslim League won 75 out of the 86 seats reserved for muslims in the punjab assembly. It was a poet from Punjab who first came up with the idea of pakistan. I am refferring to Allama Iqbal who presented the idea of Pakistan in a session of Muslim League in Allahabad in 1930. It was a punjabi student who first came up with the name 'Pakistan'' Chaudhry Rahmat Ali in 1933. Punjabi Muslims gave the greatest sacrifices to make Pakistan possible. In order to make Pakistan possible , Punjab agrreed to its division . It lost several muslim majority districts ,Gurdaspur,Bata,Ajnala,Jalandhar,Batala, Ferozepure,Zira to India thanks to Mountbatten's manipulation.In order to make Pakistan possible ,Punjab had to part with its 3 rivers . In a space of just 10 weeks, 8 million muslims from east punjab were uprooted, 75000 muslims were raped, 2000 muslim women were kidnapped and sold into slavery . Yet inspite of these sacrifices there are mischievious people especially in karachi who deny this and say that it was the urduspeakers who made pakistan possible . The division of India was actually division of punjab and bengal . in bengal no violence took place thanks to the efforts of suharwardy and gandhi . but in punjab,hell broke loose. There were just 1.5 million refuggees from UP,CP but from punjab there were 8 million refuggees. There are today only around 1 lac muslims in Indian punjab but there are TODAY crores of muslims living in UP and CP.

Finally there was a referendum in NWFP before partition in July 1947 . People of NWFP were asked whether they wanted to join India or Pakistan and they voted 97 % for Pakistan .

Rashid mian,

(Even at the time of creation of Pakistan many Muslims did not believe in Pakistan. Only two assemblies passed the resolution of Pakistan.)

Correct you are. The Pakistan movement actually did not find much support in what is now Pakistan except in Sind- the main demand for Pakistan came from Muslims of minority areas and also from Bengal. Punjab, NWFP and B'stan were very late and reluctant converts to the Pakistan idea and incidentally so were the Islamists, a fact which is often glossed over.

Regards

{Geo is will of Pakistan .Musharaf Dehalvi is hated by Pakistan. Don’t worry for we the sons of soil will soon throw this devil out.}
This is your personal opinion, so no comment.

{Now for the reply. Jinnahpur is Not a mere fiction but a reality. No Punjabi, kashmiri, sindhi,pathan ,baluchi considers it a work of fiction .If a survey is done amongst sindhis, they would with one voice say that Jinnahpur plan of MQM still exists and MQM is busy working on it . Infact MQM has already done most of the homework}

That is also your opinion. No facts to show.

(In the maps being published by US thinktanks, Pakistan has been broken-up into several entities.Punjab and rural Sind have been lumped together while Karachi is a separate state.}

First thing where is the reference. Is it one opinion or is it the opinion of department of state or defense.

{Urdu speaking from Karachi by the name of SYED JAMALUDDIN has written a book called Divide Pakistan to eliminate Terrorism. He ran 20 sec adds on CNN to promote this book. In this book, he openly calls for dividing Pakistan and making Karachi a separate independent state. (http://www.petitiononline.com/PAK47/petition.html)}

Anybody can write any book, does not mean that it reflects the policy of MQM. Why does it not reflect the policy of JamateIslami or PPP or Muslim League (N)as many Mohajirs are in those party also.

{Most importantly, the great leader of MQM Altaf Bhai has openly called “ Pakistan the greatest blunder in history of mankind’’ . He said that in DELHI and his speech was aired by GEO . His speech is available at Utube. This was one of the reasons that MQM was very happy when Geo was banned. There have been nationalists leaders in Pakistan like GM.Syed ,Wali Khan but none of them went to Delhi and called partition the greatest blunder. And you expect us to view Jinnahpur plan as fiction???}
That opinion is not singled out for Altaf Hussain. Even at the time of creation of Pakistan many Muslims did not believe in Pakistan. Even Unionist Government in Punjab was reluctant to accept the proposal of Pakistan till very end. And to counter Ghaffar Khan, Qayyum Khan was brought in NWFP, but Ghaffar Khan's party in Government at that time did not accept the proposal of Pakistan.
Only two assemblies passed the resolution of Pakistan. One has already been seperated in the name of Bangladesh and other was Sind with Bhuttos father Shahnawaz Bhutto and G.M.Syed some big names. Also how much history of Wali Khan and G.M. Syed you know because your assertion are not true.
If you know that when MQM was in its infancy Jang group has been vehemently opposed to it and was supporting Jamate Islami. And there has been friction between MQM and Jang. The reason is same as now. Jang or Geo thinks that because it is media it can make or break someone, rather than being fair and impartial. So it is partiality of Jang Group rather than fair reporting which has pitted it against Musharraf Government this time.

{Last 5 years has seen MQM busy working on Jinnahpur. They have separated the Urban areas completely from rest of Sind.Now there is an MQM Nazim in Hyderabad. In Karachi the commercial areas of Non-Mohajir localities like Lyari have been separated and attached to mohajir areas.}

This is your assertion. If you think only Karachi and Hyderabad are Urban areas of Sind and MQM is present in these two cities only. You are wrong. They are present in Sukkur and MirpurKhas also as far as I know (and may be more). Now if Nazim of Hyderabad is from MQM. You will ask why Nazim of Peshawar is from MMA. What is the point. As far as matter of Lyari, would you care to explain which COMMERCIAL AREA of Liyari is seperated. .

(All important ministries in Sind were handed to Urdu speakers.)
What is the point. Chief Minister is from Muslim League (Q). He has appointed ministers for his Government.

(Do you know that Baluchistan assembly passed a resolution with heavy majority in summer this year against the building of a new port at somiani. MQM minister for ports and shipping Babur Ghauri had announced building of a new port there . Members of Baluch assembly openly said that this was an attempt to build a coastal province for Urduspeakers by Karachi}

I have no information.

(Do you know that most of the land in Gawadar has been acquired and bought by investors from Karachi.It is only matter of time before Karachites flood Gawadar and turn Baluchis into minority. Today most Baluchis have forgotten the anger against punjabis are and focused on Urdu-Speakers.}

This is your opinion or you have any facts.

(You have raised a valid point that why Serakis are not slaughtered when they ask for separate province. The reason is that Seraikis do not go to India to ask for weapons, their leaders don’t go to New Delhi and declare partition the greatest blunder, they don’t spew venom against punjabis, they don’t pass resolutions asking for ban on entry of other communities in Seraiki Districts.}

It is not as you said. Taj Langah has worked all along with all the nationalist elements in Baluchistan, who are being killed by Army. Why the Army is killing those Baluch leaders.
If you know that Karachi has much more diversity of population with people from all parts of Pakistan, than any other city including any Seraiki city. You are confusing two periods of MQM history. One is when it was Mohajir Qaumi movement and as the name indicates it was as ethnic as Punjabi Medicos, Pukhtoon Student federation and Sindhi Medicos or Punjabi Pukhtoon Ittehad etc. Now MQM is a national party Muttahida Qaumi movement with Baluch, Sindhi, Punjabi, Pathan all part of it.

(they don’t pass resolutions asking for ban on entry of other communities in Seraiki Districts. In 2005, an MQM member moved a resolution in Sind assembly asking the Sind Govt.to call upon the Multinationals in karachi to give preference to job applicants with a karachi domicile. When Nisar Khurou asked that the words Karachi domicile be replaced with sindhi domicile, he was snubbed . In the end the resolution was passed unopposed and every MQM member voted yes for it .(So much for a liberal progressive party))

These are Assembly resolutions as you say, so easy to retrieve and you know the year also. Can you cite the resolution.

(Similarly Lot of pathans want NWFP renamed as Pukhtunistan.Nawaz Sharif had a very close political alliance with ANP in 90’s. His relations with Wali Khan Family were cordial. But when ANP insisted on renaming NWFP, Nawaz Sharif parted ways with ANP.}

Nawaz sharif came in Politics in mid 80's. Pakhtunistan demand by ANP is even before 1970. So how come he joined then parted way on the basis of Pakhtunistan.

{Similarly there are pathans in Baluchistan who want the pathan areas to be separated from Baluchistan and joined to NWFP. There leader is Mahmud Khan Achakzai . But has their wish been granted? In Pakistan no ethnic demands will be met, no matter what. Because it will break-up the country on ethnic lines. We the rest of pakistan will never recognize Officially Mohajirs as separate nation on par with punjabis ,sindhis. Because since every community must have a province, we will have to grant mohajirs a province. Infact this will be a logical development . We will never break Sind.}

So if you mean that for administrative purposes creation of new provinces will break up the country. You know that in the beginnig when ONE UNIT was there there were 2 units West Pakistan and East Pakistan. Also there is a proposal and has been proposal to divide Pakistan into sixteen administrative unit. How does it break the country is beyond comprehension. Did India break when Jharkand seperated from Bihar or haryana from Punjab. MQM does not demand a new province anyway.

I have lot of official work to do . My earlier reply was washed out . I will send my complete reply in bits and peaces over a period of time.
No Comments except 'peaces' should be pieces.

Hello

Geo is will of Pakistan .Musharaf Dehalvi is hated by Pakistan. Don’t worry for we the sons of soil will soon throw this devil out.

Now for the reply. Jinnahpur is Not a mere fiction but a reality. No Punjabi, kashmiri, sindhi,pathan ,baluchi considers it a work of fiction .If a survey is done amongst sindhis, they would with one voice say that Jinnahpur plan of MQM still exists and MQM is busy working on it . Infact MQM has already done most of the homework.

In the maps being published by US thinktanks, Pakistan has been broken-up into several entities.Punjab and rural Sind have been lumped together while Karachi is a separate state. An Urdu speaking from Karachi by the name of SYED JAMALUDDIN has written a book called Divide Pakistan to eliminate Terrorism. He ran 20 sec adds on CNN to promote this book. In this book, he openly calls for dividing Pakistan and making Karachi a separate independent state. (http://www.petitiononline.com/PAK47/petition.html)

Most importantly, the great leader of MQM Altaf Bhai has openly called “ Pakistan the greatest blunder in history of mankind’’ . He said that in DELHI and his speech was aired by GEO . His speech is available at Utube. This was one of the reasons that MQM was very happy when Geo was banned. There have been nationalists leaders in Pakistan like GM.Syed ,Wali Khan but none of them went to Delhi and called partition the greatest blunder. And you expect us to view Jinnahpur plan as fiction???

Last 5 years has seen MQM busy working on Jinnahpur. They have separated the Urban areas completely from rest of Sind.Now there is an MQM Nazim in Hyderabad. In Karachi the commercial areas of Non-Mohajir localities like Lyari have been separated and attached to mohajir areas. All important ministries in Sind were handed to Urdu speakers. Do you know that Baluchistan assembly passed a resolution with heavy majority in summer this year against the building of a new port at somiani. MQM minister for ports and shipping Babur Ghauri had announced building of a new port there . Members of Baluch assembly openly said that this was an attempt to build a coastal province for Urduspeakers by Karachi. Do you know that most of the land in Gawadar has been acquired and bought by investors from Karachi.It is only matter of time before Karachites flood Gawadar and turn Baluchis into minority. Today most Baluchis have forgotten the anger against punjabis are and focused on Urdu-Speakers.

You have raised a valid point that why Serakis are not slaughtered when they ask for separate province. The reason is that Seraikis do not go to India to ask for weapons, their leaders don’t go to New Delhi and declare partition the greatest blunder, they don’t spew venom against punjabis, they don’t pass resolutions asking for ban on entry of other communities in Seraiki Districts. In 2005, an MQM member moved a resolution in Sind assembly asking the Sind Govt.to call upon the Multinationals in karachi to give preference to job applicants with a karachi domicile. When Nisar Khurou asked that the words Karachi domicile be replaced with sindhi domicile, he was snubbed . In the end the resolution was passed unopposed and every MQM member voted yes for it .(So much for a liberal progressive party)


Similarly Lot of pathans want NWFP renamed as Pukhtunistan.Nawaz Sharif had a very close political alliance with ANP in 90’s. His relations with Wali Khan Family were cordial. But when ANP insisted on renaming NWFP, Nawaz Sharif parted ways with ANP. Similarly there are pathans in Baluchistan who want the pathan areas to be separated from Baluchistan and joined to NWFP. There leader is Mahmud Khan Achakzai . But has their wish been granted? In Pakistan no ethnic demands will be met, no matter what. Because it will break-up the country on ethnic lines. We the rest of pakistan will never recognize Officially Mohajirs as separate nation on par with punjabis ,sindhis. Because since every community must have a province, we will have to grant mohajirs a province. Infact this will be a logical development . We will never break Sind.

I have lot of official work to do . My earlier reply was washed out . I will send my complete reply in bits and peaces over a period of time.

sonof Kashmir:129
It is not a matter of hurting. It is a matter of putting the record straight.
I would definitely like to know the opinions. It is important to dissect the real matter from opinions.

Dear Mr.Rashid

I spend nearly 45 minutes on drafting a reply but then i hit a wrong button and it washed off. it has left me very depressed . this has happened second time in 2 days . now i wikl send a reply in or 2 days but i will send one . do not worry. i never run from an intellectual debate . i hate physical violence of any sort and if u have suffered,then accept apologies from me on behalf of northern pakistan.

Geo is an extremely biased and one-dimensional channel. It represents the old ways of agitation and mischief. Geo loop video of 10 man protests from a close angle all day, and pump people to go on the streets and damage Pakistan. We all know what Allah says in surah 5 al-ma’idah: ‘Those who…do mischief in the land shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land’. Geo should thank Musharraf he only exiled geo from the land. But of course gew is enemy of Islam and of Pakistan. They don’t even recognise the present gov. gave them their rights to broadcast, because this would mean they would have to accept that the present gov. has done a lot of good things for Pakistan. Pakistan ko Jeeneh doh Geo!

Sonof Kashmir:
It is a known fact that to start a campaign against Mohajir community (As although I did not belonged to MQM I also suffered), a map of Jinnahpur was published by agencies in Jang newspaper and state terrorism was started against Mohajir Community .
Let me ask you why not the Seraiki were slaughtered when they demanded a seperate status and province. How come Punjab has Seraiki, potohari, Kashmiri etc and still be one province. Howcome Baluchistan has Pathan, baluch, Brohi etc and still be one province, but if Mohajir are accepted as seperate community it will result in disintegeration of Pakistan.
The points you are raising is valid. But they are as superficial as some Indian counterpart telling about Abul Kalam as president of India and premji businessman as example of prosperity and advancement of Indian Muslims.
More important than this are issues. The finance commission award is distributed on the basis of population and not on the basis of who has generated the wealth. Do you think it is fair. It is only fair if we are one nation. If not why would anybody share his wealth with his neighbour.
Apart from debt servicing, biggest expense is on Army. Why should we put our hard earned income in Armed forces preponderance of which goes to Punjab, if we are not one nation.
As far as Industrial sector dominated by Mohajir community, keep your facts straight. Even look at the composition of Industries and election of their office bearer in Karachi Chamber of commerce (and I am not talking about Lahore, Faisalabad, Gujrat and Gujranwala).
As far as Urdu being imposed on Bengalis by Urdu speaking. You have absolutely no sense of history and creation of Pakistan. It was Jinnah (who was Gujrati and English speaking and not Urdu ) who was the undistuputed leader of all parts of Pakistan. And Bengal was the province which gave unanimous support to him in contradistinction to the parts comprising West Pakistan. After religion which was the reason for creation of Pakistan. In his wisdom Pakistan needed to be one nation. So the next step was lingua franca which is Urdu. If you know the history of Urdu you will be knowing that it did not belong to Dehli but came into being by the interaction of different invaders from Afghanistan and local people and includes substantial amount Turkish, persian and Arabic words due to that. It was lingua franca. It happened that since the capital of that Turkish, Afghan, Mongol dynasty (and others before) was Dehli and so the support of Urdu in Dehli.
If you are really son of Kashmir you should be ashamed.
Kashmir has never decided to join Pakistan. Still Kashmiris are as much part and parcel of Pakistan and accepted as such. Even that famous drinker and your Urdu speaking pork eater told that Kashmir is the Main Artery of Pakistan.
The Biharis in Bangladesh say that they have sacrificed for Pakistan and not Bangladesh. (And did it twice one in 1947 and one in 1971). If they have emotional attachment to Pakistan, it is no surprise. You can disown them but don't blame them for their sacrifices. They have been fooled all along it seems. Disown them. But don't blame them for the foolishness of their attachment to Pakistan.
If you want to roll back back history, you can do it. Still you don't want to create an alternate history.

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Karachi sahib,

Could we have a deal? You take Arundhati Roy, Medha Patkar, Kuldeep Nayyar and assorted commies and mullahs from India. In return you give us Aunty Shamim, Begum Nawazish Ali, Rahat Fatah Ali Khan, Atif Aslam and some of those Geo TV reporters that my chowkie pals keep drooling over.

Fair exchange sahib?

Regards

123 Posted by majumdar

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050826/world.htm#6

Indian woman moves Pak court on visa issue

Islamabad, Aug 25
An Indian woman seeking Pakistani citizenship after getting married to her cousin here has moved the Peshawar High Court to restrain the government from taking any adverse action against her after her visa expired.

Afsina Bibi, who hails from Ahmedabad, got married to Arshid Mahmood, a Pakistani citizen in 1997. However, she came to Pakistan only in May. Her visit visa expired on August 19.

The woman applied for Pakistani citizenship on Tuesday and has now requested the court to restrain the government from taking any adverse action against her.

The Peshawar High Court on Tuesday put on notice the federal government and other respondents on the writ petition.

Bibi’s advocate told the court that the woman was legally entitled to get Pakistani citizenship under the Citizenship Act, local daily “Dawn� reported. — PTI

Karachi sahib,

OK, Indian.

(I personally know a few Muslim families who got their kids married here in Pakistan for this purpose. )

I hope they get what they want!!!

Regards

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120 Posted by majumdar

I don't know what an Injun mean? Please clarify?

Your other colleagues may have reasons to apply for "Paki" citizenship. I personally know a few Muslim families who got their kids married here in Pakistan for this purpose. Honest and no intent to malign anybody please.

Karachi sahib,

I am an Injun and my name is indeed Majumdar as at least three chowkies know!!! I see no reason to apply for a Paki citizenship.

Regards

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117 Posted by majumdar

that's alright. But again if you come forward with your true identity and not to pose yourself as a Pakistani when in fact you are indian and trying to malign my city and my country. If you would like to be a Pakistani, please apply for Pakistani citizenship, we may consider you.

Karachi sahib,

Who is to judge whether it is being done out of honesty or to advance devious ends. Nonetheless blanket abuse of any person or group based on nationality/race/religion/caste/language/gender/sexual orientation is highly reprehensible.

Regards

#111 Posted by harish_hyd

بولو اور جواب دو- سکول Ú©Ùˆ اردو مين مدرسÛ? Ú©Û?تے Û?ين-

114 Posted by majumdar

As long as this is done with the right intent and not to advance your devious ends and to spew poison.

Tahmed sahib/Harishbhai,

One of the rights in a democratic society should be the right to bicker. As Churchill said jaw-jaw is better than war-war!!!

Regards

111 Posted by harish_hyd

Ù†Û?ين تم Ù†Û’ ÙŠÛ? بکواس Ù†Û?ين Ú©ÙŠ-

Ù†Û?ين تم Ù†Û’ ÙŠÛ? بکواس Ù†Û?ين Ú©ÙŠ-

harish: Any individual born and raised in the Indian sub-continent has an inalienable right to bicker!! So we Pakistanis can bicker as much as we want. :-)

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107 Posted by sonofkashmir

I request chowk editors to delete this post as it is advances rascit propaganda against my city and my country.

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Yaar you guys got Pakistan on the premise that Muslims needed a separate homeland for themselves and now you're bickering amongst yourselves. Isn't it the ultimate irony?

Mr.Madni

I appreciate your candor . you demand openly what mr.salim chauhan and MQM say between the lines. Unfortunately your demands can not be met . If the rest of pakistan recognizes you mohajir as nationality,then naturally we will have to break-up sind province .That would mean the end of pakistan. pakistan was formed for muslims of muslim majority regions and there was no conception of transfer of populations in it . As for MQM,it has been demanding a separate province since last 2 decades. Infact if it were to MQM and many Urdu-speakers, Karachi,Hyderabad would become a separate state . There is no punjabi,pathan,kashmiri who doubts this. In any case MQM tried its best and failed . The state forces brutally crushed the seccesion attempt under the orders of a sindhi premier. You MENTION imposition of Urdu on Bengalis that brokeup the country . Who was the one who imposed Urdu??Not Punjabis ,not pathans,not baluchis,not sindhis. Urdu is after all not their language . It was the Urduspeaking dominated Beuracracy and Muslim League who imposed Urdu. Infact when Bengali was given the status of a national language in 1956, Babai-Urdu Maulvi Abdul-Haq led a procession against it in karachi . So today in 21st century the rest of the country cant breakup pakistan once again by dividing Sind . Any attempt by any emtiety to separate Karachi from Pakistan will be put down most cruelly by rest of pakistan. There will be no more 71s. As for biharis ,that is a non-issue . We dont want sindhis to take up arms against the state . they will not simply sit back and be allowed to turn into red-indians. They are very assertive of theur rights . Remember what happened when mush dehalvi tried building kalabagh dam??He was forced to back down within 3 weeks after all of his closes sindhi ministers threatened to resign. Bihari issue is an even more emotive issue than kalabagh dam . Bangladeshis are better muslims than us. They have offered biharis citizenship 4 times . The younger generation of biharis speak bengali . We should negotiate with the banglaeshi govt.to offer them once citizenship once more . the boharis then should accept it.

Urdu-Speakers already dominate pakistan completely . THE corporate sector consists largeky of them.Most of the industrial wealth is held by urduspeakers. Several army,naval,air chiefs have been mohajirs. There were several mohajir chief justices of supreme court. During the last 5 years all power in Sind lay with urduspeakers. Despite haveing just 25% of seats in sind assembly,MQM had 50% of ministries including the most important ministries of finance and police.Sindhis despite being the majority population were handed over unimportant ministries like rural development. Why are you Urdu-Speakers not satisfied with what you have already got?Why?Why? Name me a single Sindhi industrialist of stature?Dont act like jews and keep on harping that just because our forefathers gave sacrifices,we are eternally entitled to special priveleges.

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Re: # 102 There also lots of sex envy by retarts as good looking punjabi and Sindhi women are marrying dark but prosperous, smart, foren gone or returned nice muhajir boys and crossing away from retards. Now sure they are marrying only good educated and with good jobs , as they feel they can get smart children,they will care for them, care for them when old, and if they die they will care for children and generally will not be practicing polygomy.any women have told me this and women are little smarter as they are not visual stimulated but women are mean and calculating so they marry also ugly, rich, famous and old. Lot of problem can be gone if Mohajirs are recognised and addressed as nationality now living in urban areas of Sindh.

Re: # 99... Lot of hatred problems will be solved if we pakistanis officially say as Mohajirs as NATIONALITY or urdu speaking Indian origin people are inclusive in nationalities or Ethinic groups like Punbaji and Sindhi ( both tetarts), baloachi, Kashmiri, pathan and Mohajirs all others. For gods sake bring all Biharis back once for all give one year free Border and help them to resettle where ever they want that is necessary if they be accorded full and equal citizenship, Sindhis will whine for month then will go their own way of life. Its better to solve problem by admitting to wrong done to Pakistani nationalist muslims and do not push MQM to go for extreme measures like finally they will outraged will ask for new province and if that happens no body can kill majority people of Karachi and hyderbad. This stupidity has no limits. After rise of Pakistan QAMA was obstinate tried to impose Urdu as National language on Bengalis and lead to dissection. The way majority is not conceding to little demands of minority people who are superior all other races of pakistan in achivement.

Re: # 89 Karachite

wah, wah ... bhunay huvay Qeemay ka mazA Aa gayA.

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Viqarm #88 {"Sadly, the house IS divided against itself, and very badly so....The nation cannot be galvanized merely by the wishes and statements of the political leaders. "}

Viqar Sahib,
Drust farmaaya aapne. You have so eloquently stated in two sentences what I could not say in a whole article. Thanks.

Aquaris #92, #93, #94,
Thank you for correcting the factual error. I had copies & pasted the "300 Biharis" number from Son Of Kashmir's boast that Najaaez Besharif had settle 300 Biharis in Punjab. Maybe he was using the notorious 100 to 1 ratio. :)

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Chowk Staff

Please delete two of the repeated posts , that was not intentional

Re: # 78

A Factual correction

"Repatriating 300 so-called "Biharis" is like kissing your sister. "


it were not 300 , the figure was 30,000
and Mian Chunun was the place , where all these were settled.

about 5000-or less of these are still there, the rest have ended up.....down south, as predicted .

but the good part it is ,the working bussiness chain, it has developed, most of these are now skilled workers, few of them now working in the Factories along the Lahore-sheikhupur road, as well as Lahore-faisalabad road,
also, many of them are now employed making Bags, Purses,Suitcases,Jackets with artificial/Rexine leather...etc..etc..etc.. in Shah Alami Lahore, and work on rotation basis , ...ie Father in Punjab, son in Karachi, mother in Mian Chunun, ....for they were given houses , mostly free or nearly free....so they own their properties, yet like I said, 25,000 or more of them are IN KARACHI....
..leaving behind just token pressence, and to safe guard the ownership of the houses given to them.

Period.

Re: # 78

A Factual correction

"Repatriating 300 so-called "Biharis" is like kissing your sister. "


it were not 300 , the figure was 30,000
and Mian Chunun was the place , where all these were settled.

about 5000-or less of these are still there, the rest have ended up.....down south, as predicted .

but the good part it is ,the working bussiness chain, it has developed, most of these are now skilled workers, few of them now working in the Factories along the Lahore-sheikhupur road, as well as Lahore-faisalabad road,
also, many of them are now employed making Bags, Purses,Suitcases,Jackets with artificial/Rexine leather...etc..etc..etc.. in Shah Alami Lahore, and work on rotation basis , ...ie Father in Punjab, son in Karachi, mother in Mian Chunun, ....for they were given houses , mostly free or nearly free....so they own their properties, yet like I said, 25,000 or more of them are IN KARACHI....
..leaving behind just token pressence, and to safe guard the ownership of the houses given to them.

Period.

Re: # 78

A Factual correction

"Repatriating 300 so-called "Biharis" is like kissing your sister. "


it were not 300 , the figure was 30,000
and Mian Chunun was the place , where all these were settled.

about 5000-or less of these are still there, the rest have ended up.....down south, as predicted .

but the good part it is ,the working bussiness chain, it has developed, most of these are now skilled workers, few of them now working in the Factories along the Lahore-sheikhupur road, as well as Lahore-faisalabad road,
also, many of them are now employed making Bags, Purses,Suitcases,Jackets with artificial/Rexine leather...etc..etc..etc.. in Shah Alami Lahore, and work on rotation basis , ...ie Father in Punjab, son in Karachi, mother in Mian Chunun, ....for they were given houses , mostly free or nearly free....so they own their properties, yet like I said, 25,000 or more of them are IN KARACHI....
..leaving behind just token pressence, and to safe guard the ownership of the houses given to them.

Period.

#89 Posted by Karachite,

Karachite Bhai ... itna ghussa? Yes Saleem Bhai is wrong on most counts but he's a good soul. Just goes overboard sometimes with his mojo pretensions/credentials. But actually he's brought around quite easily. Just ask his BhaabiJan :)

I can tell you what Karachi and Pakistan has given us and I can tell you the miserable state my relatives in parts of India live in.

They live in abysmal poverty in the state that we left them when we moved from there to Pakistan. Today, I own houses in major parts of not only Karachi but also Lahore.

And my relatives in India do not even have a toilet to use. They visited me here a couple of months ago and were suprised to see the state I live in here.

Apart from financial independence that we enjoy here, I enjopy my religious independence. They told me that they cannot eat beef because you do not let your mother slaughter them.

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Re: # 80 Krashid1961

"As Lincoln said a house divided against itself cannot succeed".

Sadly, the house IS divided against itself, and very badly so. And it isn't just the policies (re WOT) of the past few years but also the lack of vision on the part of the incumbents as well as wannabe leaders which is deeply distressing.

The nation cannot be galvanized merely by the wishes and statements of the political leaders. They must come up with ways to harness the emotions of the people of Pakistan, most of whom are very poor, before any plans for progress can move forward.

#86 Krashid Sahib,
Bilkul. I agree that ALL parts of Pakistan need to be developed - land reform, female emancipation, mass education, modern justice, healthcare, hygiene, religious reform, tolerance, and elimination of class system.

Perhaps, these measures could go a long way toward solving the so-called "ethnic" problems.

#84 Salim Chauhan
At least things have been calm during Musharraf tenure.
As far as whether it was good or bad to struggle for Pakistan. I don't know.
Everybody has benefited from pakistan to some extent.
I think best path would be to develop different regions of Pakistan, which will take away a lot of bite from the rhetorics.

Insightful . I sense the urgency. Most people do not have your insight. May Allah have mercy on our people.

Here is something that will really overwhelm you: WHAT IF things are planned 10+ years in advance. What if things are planned decades in advance?

You are right about Indians in high policy related positions in the US. It is due to decades of PHDs accumulated by Indians in both Russia/England and the US. Recall Russia gave India books in 1954 as aid. That is a greater aid than F-16s you cannot fly without parts.
Stop looking to China look to Russia (India will be tweeked and forced to riot as in 1950s but ignore it).

You are wrong about knowing India OR afghanistan. Pakistanis think they know India. If you knew India you would not be watching their movies and listening to their songs.

I doubt if you know Afghanistan either or even yourselves. That is the curse of the ignorant. But you are getting there.

Musharraf should not have shed blood in the red mosque incident. Gas them to unconsciousness or fire tranquilizers at them but we ought not to have shed the blood of those in the Lal masjid. We should still be careful and respectful of our religious men and women.

May Allah help our people and our armed forces. I recommend going into the same self imposed sanction oriented mode as Iran under the Ayatollahs and Japan in the 1600s. Indeed an Islamic Pakistan is more important than the alternatives we are encountering.

We should tackle news of taliban and drug trade + we should tell the Afghans to be friendly with us or we stop assisting the anti - taliban push. We should try enact a united Pakistan-Afghanistan-Iran-Turkey vision.

Current Turkish movement in "Kurdistan" is a problem here. We need to reduce such differences between us.

krashid1961 {"If someone needs to complain it is Baluchistan and NWFP related to Army action. ...The most important thing is action taken against our own people Sindhi, Baluch and Pathan were condemned by almost all the leaders.
This is a big advancement on 1971 when Army action in East Pakistan was condemned by Sindhi, Baluch and Pathan Nationalist + I think JUI also. "}

Rashid Sahib,
Thank you for your interesting comments regarding my response to Son Of Kashmir. It is interesting to note that you lament the Army action against Pathans, Baluchis, and Sindhis, and yet neglect to show minimal charity in acknowledging the suffering of Mohajirs at the hands of the same Army. This is exactly the kind of bias exhibited by some other Chowkies of similar backgrounds.

As they say, give somebody a long leash and they will eventually ... You proved that proverb quite right, my friend.

Now, I happen to agree with many of your excellent points about the sacrifices made for Pakistan and how the Central Government was jumpstarted in Karachi by people from my grandfather's generation using tents for offices, crates for desks, and kerosene lanterns for lights. I hope you realize that the bulk of these unsung heroes were Muslims from India, yes the bureaucrats who had opted for Pakistan and were resolved to make their new country a success.

While sons of the soil like Maj. Ayub Khan were busy at the border selecting the prettiest Muslim refugee girls, many of these Mohajirs left their comfortable mansions and vast land holdings in India to serve Mr. Jinnah's utopia. Please be fair.

BTW, my comment about the 80/20 rule was merely a joke to discount Son Of Kashmir's boast concerning BB and NS having the support of 80% of Pakistanis. I did not seriously mean to imply that Mohajirs actually performed 80% of the work in Pakistan - maybe just 40%. :)

Sunday, December 02, 2007
By our correspondent

Karachi

The Sindh High Court Bar Association on Saturday elected Justice (retd) Rasheed A Razvi as president of the association for the next one year term.


“Today’s victory is a referendum for carrying out the second phase of the lawyers’ struggle,� Justice Razvi said while addressing a gathering of charged lawyers after the announcement of election results.

The lawyers were raising slogans against President General (retd) Pervez Musharraf. Rasheed A Razvi secured a landslide victory by getting 718 votes against his contender Ismat Mehdi who got 386 out of total 1,114 votes.

“Our struggle will gain momentum if the country is not brought back to pre November 3 position,� he said. “It will be a historic year and sacrifices of the lawyers will not go in vain,� he said.


Singers enthral Lahorites outside Geo office
Sunday, December 02, 2007
By Shahab Ansari

LAHORE: Famous singers made an appearance at the Geo TV office on Davis Road, Lahore, on Saturday evening and enthralled the people with a spectacular performance called "Peace Concert".

Renowned singers, showbiz personalities, film, stage and TV artists appeared on a makeshift stage, specially set up for this rare and unique performance. It was the sheer love of the people and a heartfelt sense of brotherhood that was displayed by these artistes who expressed solidarity with the Geo TV employees by performing for more than three hours. Hundreds of men, women and children gathered outside the Geo TV office to see their favourite singers perform.


RAWALPINDI, Nov 30: Lawyers of the District Bar Association (DBA) continued their protest on Friday against what they called the unconstitutional steps of the government taken after the state of emergency was proclaimed in the country on November 3.

In a meeting of the general body that was presided over by President Lahore High Court Bar Association (LHCBA) Sardar Asmatullah, the lawyers also criticised the judges who had taken oath under the Provisional Constitutional Order (PCO).

LAHORE, Nov 30: Around 300 protesters held a peaceful demonstration against the imposition of emergency at Liberty Chowk on Friday afternoon, first forming a human-chain around the chowk and then coalescing into a large group and marching around the grassy area.

The event, organised by the Student Action Committee (SAC), brought together students from the city’s all leading educational institutions, both private and public, as well as dozens of lawyers and civil society activists.

MUZAFFARGARH, Nov 30: Lawyers observed a complete strike on Friday and boycotted court proceedings and announced that they would do the same on Saturday (today) too.

District Bar Association President Zubaidul Salam Shirwani said they wanted the release and reinstatement of all superior courts judges who did not succumb to the allegiance of the Provisional Constitution Order and restoration of the 1973 Constitution.Advocate Rana Amjad Ali Amjad said the judiciary was considered to be the last hope of the people of this country and Gen Musharraf had shattered it too.

BJ Coomar #81 {"Good for you! You sure told this Salim guy!"}

BJ,
I don't think you look good in that short skirt and pom poms.

#80 krashid1961

Good for you! You sure told this Salim guy!

He needs to watch his words, don't you think?!

Perhaps he needs to explain his thoughts a bit more - at greater length.

And for starters, you should perhaps ask him not to mangle nicks!

Salim Chauhan:
I am perplexed by your response.
As I said before. Without determinig the direction of nation, how can you progress.
As Lincoln said a house divided against itself cannot succeed.
The problems are historical.
Current Pakistan consists of most backward part of United India. Of the Punjab East Punjab was more prosperous. West Bengal was more prosperous. Sind was backward compared to Bombay. And two parts not in direct continuity with current India meaning NWFP and Baluchistan were also backward.
Kashmir has unique situation with its blood link in Pakistan, but its leadership (Sheikh Abdullah and successors undecided.
Out of all these areas we are in the process of creating a central Government, which started in Barracks in Karachi where people created Central Government out of nowhere working on floor and taking pencil and paper from home (some exaggeration but still not far from truth).
In a situation like this with our East and West border unsecure, it is remarkable that Pakistan has come so far.
The kind of talk on this board by you and your rival will come, but rather than talking on personalities and persona, it is important to stick to issues.
State of Pakistan, and Pakistan Army decided to take over from Nawaz Sharif because of his disregard to pillars of state and personal style of Politics.
Pakistan is Federation with multiple ethnicities. Mohajirs, Sindhi, Punjabi, Pathan and Baluchs. But that is very superficial because of ethnicities. For example how much Baluch is Leghari and how much Punjabi. Same with Bhutto and Zardari how much Sindhi they are and how much Baluch.
It is good, and keeps a check on people who wants to do politics on the provincial basis.
Is there a difference between Pathan/Punjabi and Sindhi/ Baluch. The voting pattern and election tells otherwise. Parties which are strong in NWFP are having substantial presence in Baluchistan. And Parties which are strong in Punjab have substantial presence in Sind.
Also, nobody will buy that 80% of work is done by Mohajir community.
Creation of Pakistan depended on Trader/Industrialist level in big part on Memon and Chinioti capital who saw a great advantage in Pakistan when their more rich counterpart in the form of Tatas and Berlas will be out to India.
Also although Karachi has been the Industrial hub in the beginning, but Industries did not and donot belong to so called Mohajir community. There is substantial economic activity performed by people from other parts of Pakistan at all levels.
It is also in the interest of Pakistan that other parts of Pakistan also continue to prosper. Because of the many factors (and we can discuss those factors but is mainly related to unequal distribution of income and preponderance of expenses on the Army) Punjab has benefited most as is evident in growth of cities like Sialkot, Faisalabad, Gujrat, gujranwala etc.
While in Sind apart from Karachi, no other city showed any growth. The situation is similar in NWFP and Baluchistan.
It is not that Punjab has lost during last 8 years. In what parameters it has lost.
Moreover Pervez Ilahi and company are telling that Punjab has developed during last 8 years. Did he hindered the development of Punjab. Did Pervez Musharraf hindered the development of Punjab. I don't have any statistics to substantiate that.
If someone needs to complain it is Baluchistan and NWFP related to Army action. Both of these actions were taken by Army. And if anybody says that Army is Punjabi, Pathan, Baluch, Mohajir or Sindhi, lives in a world of own.
The most important thing is action taken against our own people Sindhi, Baluch and Pathan were condemned by almost all the leaders.
This is a big advancement on 1971 when Army action in East Pakistan was condemned by Sindhi, Baluch and Pathan Nationalist + I think JUI also. All the other parties supported action in east Pakistan and get abluted and pious after putting the blame on Z.A. Bhutto. We have to still write our history and lets hope this history is good.
It is also good that most Pakistanis don't think in terms of few people on Chowk.
It is very much evident in last 8 months. Whether it is lawyer, journalist or judges, majority of Pakistan supported them, without regard to any other consideration. The people who are talking like this are just going to shoot themselves in their foot. Because although integeration of Pakistan is a slow process, but has progressed much.

Ahmed Quraishi was on PTV a couple of hours back. Again, he was cherry picking feedback/ responses and representing them as that of the average Pakistani. This propagandist insults the intelligence of civil society by making the assertion that Pakistanis are beholden to dictators and dictatorial rule. He is of the view that Pakistanis like to get beaten up for standing up for the constitution and we like to be gagged for having an inquisitive mind. He makes these silly assertions day in and day out.

Today he was questioning why Harvard was bestowing a title to C. J. Iftikar Chaudhry. He was also proudly reflecting on DICTATOR Musharraf’s epistles on "human rights in Pakistan not to be paralleled with the West..."

Ahmed Quraishi diatribes are divorced from the fact that ALL Pakistanis are yearning for rule of the law or a system of a level playing field of all citizens.

Ahmed Quraishi is mentally sick. I challenge him to take the feedback from Chowk and narrate on PTV, instead of the fictitious stuff he does everyday.

Son Of Kashmir Sahib,
I have responded to your excellent question in your ilog and am repeating it here for your review. Thanks,

Bradrum Janaab Pisser-e-Kashmir Sahib,

As promised, I am responding to your question directed to me. My dear friend, ZK, alerted me to your query and I apologize for not having had the time to indulge your numerous points compounded into a single question - talk about getting your money's worth. :)

By now you have hopefully read my response to a similar question from Ally Sahib and can understand my position regarding my high regard for Punjabis as well as other Pakistanis, including Sindhis, Pathans, Baluchis, Kashmiris, Mohajirs, and Baltis. Please accept my explanations which I have expressed in a spirit of Pakistani nationalism, Islamic beliefs, a solid faith in humanity, and a passion for justice tempered by a degree of humility.

My responses are in BOLD and please don't misconstrue the emphasis as an attempt to overpower you.

{"a question to mr.salim
Mr.SALIM
In my life i have encountered lot of karachities . Many of them are great patriots but a small minority which is very powerful are absoloute racists and fanatics and filled with all kind of gibberish ."}

Oye Kashmir de Puttar Payee,
Please don't fall in the same trap that often confines me when I retaliate against a few enemas who happen to be Paki Punjabis. When Ali Ibn-e-Puta, the Axeman, Ass Lame, Madame Demi Flatulence, Wolfie, or Hypo Chacha Al Butteesi express their venomous and racist profanity at ALL Urdu-speaking Mohajirs, I often strike back with an unintentional shot-gun approach and a devastating ten-fold effect. Thus, I end up alienating many other Pakistani Punjabis - not to mention a stray Indian Potohari here and there.

A lesson learned is that one swallow does not a Big Gulp make. :)


{"I feel amazed that a person so rich and so widely traveled should be filled with so much hatred."}

Sir, while I am quite well-to-do, calling me "rich" may be stretching things a bit. Anyway, prosperity is relative. So, thanks for the kind gesture.

As for hatred, I don't hate anybody. In fact, the amount of traveling that I have had the opportunity to undertake has made me quite liberal, tolerant, understanding, and friendly.


{"But anyway let me tell you that previously punjab used to tolerate this nonsense . Now we have suffered so much during the last 8 years that this time there will be no tolerance shown . it will be tit for tat . Nawaz Sharif ,leader of punjab and NWFP is back, benazir leader of rural sind is back . together they have 80 percent of pakistan with them . Very soon country will be rid of the kARACHI mafia and retribution will began on a massive scale. Let me tell you that we people from northern pakistan never had any bias towards your community . but now we will guard our self interest . "}

Kashmir ke Nur Chashm Bhai,
If Bezamir Bhutni and Najaaez Besharif and their supporters constitute 80% of Pakistan, then I must invoke the 80/20 rule. That piece of wisdom states that 80% of the real work in any group is performed by 20% of the people. While we are only 10% or less of Pakistan's population, we Urdu-speaking Mohajirs are proud to serve Pakistan in ways that surpass our meager numbers. :) If you are stating that the last eight years have been devastating for Punjabis, then I must ask you to replace the batteries in your cheap Chinese calculator - or is it a manual abacus?


{"Having read your article with or without musharaf i can't help commenting. I laughed a great deal on your statement that Hyderabad and Karachi have an inalienable right of self-determination . You deny this same right to us kashmiris on the grounds that if we become freee and join pakistan , we might start oppressing you!Let me make it clear that Karachi and Hyderabad are an integral part of Pakistan and of province of Sind. There will be no more 1971s . We will fight to the last drop of blood if there is any move to separate these cities from pakistan to form Jinnahpur or urdusdesh . Punjabis and Sindhis have lot of differences but let me make it clear that on this point, we are united rock-solid . On one hand you spew hatred against punjab and on another hand you talk of confederating with freedom loving sindis and baluchis. Even more amusing is this line "We need to restore and strengthen our relationships with ethnic Sindhis, Pathans, Baluchis, and Punjabis who have lived in Karachi for generations". Why the hell would sindis living in karachi conspire to form another singapore . Their first loyalty is to Sind and not to you . They view Karachi as the Jerusalem of Sind. As for Pathan and Punjabis , their loyalties lay with rest of pakistan and not with racist ethinic bodies and entities filled with idealogues like you . The fact is that Sindhis will always remain majority in Sind and Punjabis in Pakistan . Most sindhis have accepted the later fact . Sindhi nationalists like Qadir Magsi ,mumtaz bhutto attended Nawz SHARIF'S APC in London . So you see Karachi will always remain tied to these evil disorganized poor illeterate punjabis ,pathans, sindhis. There will be lot less bloodshed and fighting if you accept this and agree to integrating with rest of us instead of insisting to violently mantaining your separate status ."}


Ya Shaikh Ibn-e-Srinagar Al Poonchi,
Please explain to me why Najaaez Besharif needed an Armored Personnel Carrier (APC) in London, of all places? Also, I am quite impressed by your ceaseless and persistent protestations about the affection that permeates among Punjabis, Baluchis, Sindhis, Pathans, and every Paki with an alien accent in Urdu. Notwithstanding the barrier set up by Kalabagh Dam, the situation in Wanna Wanna, the uncontrolled gas of Baluchis, and the noisy FM radio station of Mulla Fadloola, I am reassured that your own information is much more factual and timely than my mediocre understanding of reality up north. May the love fest among humans and the nature of Muslim brotherhood sprouting in the northern areas never afflict Hyderabad and Karachi, Ameen. Also, please don't bring up all that bloodshed stuff. It doesn't impress us anymore. We are not your grandfather's "Bhayya HindustaaNRa Panahguzeer" Mohajirs. The repression and slaughter of the 90s by our own soldiers has made us numb, immune, stoic, and most of all disappointed and alienated from most people up north - who did not do anything, or even say anything, against the butchery of the soldiers sent by them and their leaders.

TeghoN ke saaye meN hum pal kar jawaan huwe heN
AasaaN nahiN mitana naamo nishaaN hamaara.

Before you advise me to integrate and assimilate, please understand that I have Indian, Pakistani, Irish, Bulgarian, Iranian, and Turkish relatives professing Hinduism, Christianity, and BOTH Shia and Sunni Islam. Now, if you know any agreeable Sikhs, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, and even Jehovah's Witnesses, please send me their e-mail addresses and CVs so that I can take your guidance to the hilt - and Hamidumdum Sahib does not qualify as any of those mentioned. :) Also, thank you for taking the time out to read my notorious article and even laughing at its contents. Do you think that I should keep my day job?


{"Musharaf shares your views . His record of military appointments in senior ranks is an ample testimony of his bias . In 2002 elections ppp was the biggest party in sind with 68 seats while mqm had just 41 . but out of pure ethinic bias , he handed over sind to mqm . i would heartily have agreed to a ppp-mqm govt but this was not to be . Mohajirs for 5 years called all the shots in sind . the most plum ministries of interior and finance went to mqm while sindhis were handles unimportant ministies like agriculture and rural development . under our constituion , the Governor is a figurehead but in sind he enjoyed executive powers . Today an average Sindhi is hurt , angry and mad that he is denied a just share of power in his very own province and after this 5 year honeymoon there are still people like you who have the gall to complain and whine."}

Baramula ke Betay, Ladakh ke Lakht-e-Jigar, aur Jammu ke Jaleel Jawaan,

Mushy may "share my views," but fortunately I don't share his views. As you may have noticed he talks like, walks like, thinks like a Punju and you know what they say ... "If it walks like, talks like, quacks like, ..."


{"Then one hand you bittery decy partition and creation of pakistan . For you it was a mistake , pakistan an excercise in futility . But then you have the nerve to demand repatriation of biharis . what a joke!Let me tell you that we people of northern pakistan never opposed this demand. It was the sindhis who opposed it to the last man . Im his first tenure as PM, Nawaz Sharif had started the repatriation process and brought 300 biharis to settle in punjab. But then Nawaz Shrif's own ministers from sind rebelled . No sindhi even those in pay of MQM will agree to it . Even MQM to its credit does not support this divisive demand . Let me tell you that if Sindhis were to somehow agree , i would be the first person to support the repatriation of biharis."}

Kargil ke Kabootar Bhai,
Repatriating 300 so-called "Biharis" is like kissing your sister. You get all the embarrassment with none of the pleasure - he should have done the right thing by repatriating ALL of them.

Also, I am perplexed by your lofty principles of repatriating these "stranded" Pakis (whom you guys pejoratively dismiss as "Biharis") and then having this stance subjected to a Sindhi veto. Show some guts and do or support the right thing, my friend.

My comments about Pakistan were based on my perfect 20/20 hindsight. If the results of partition were that Pakistan was safer, more advanced, more educated, more liberated, more democratic, more peaceful, healthier, and more united than the mother ship, I would have thanked God and would be manning the border to facilitate an orderly exodus of Indians escaping to Pakistan.


{"Right now our energies however are focused on saving pakistan from general musharaf. he like yahya khan (another non-punjab,non-kashmir) general will fight to the last to stay in power even if country breaks up . the odds are overwhelming . we the original inhabitants of this great land will go through hell and fire to tame the establishment and establish free and fare elections. Its a pity that Karachi and Hyderabad are not supporting us . Your forefathers were with us 60 years ago in creation of pakistan. By supporting musharaf , you have sown seeds of misery. Do you really think that once benazir and nawaz sharif come to power and chief justice is restored, we would forget your open support to musharaf . Would not we want to repay in kind? For once mr.salim,your right,urdu-speakers have put all their eggs in one basket and this will lead to horrible dividends. "}

Dear Son of the Soil,
Finally, you don your gay apparel of Pisser-e-Zameen - I guess 'tis the season and you have every right.

Please don't beat around the bush or threaten us with more violence. Just do the right thing and repatriate the "stranded" Pakis. No nation on earth has ever turned its back on its own citizens. How do you think that makes us Urdu-speaking Mohajirs feel in Karachi and Hyderabad? The message from Punjabis and Sindhis is clear - you guys don't want any more of our type of people to come to Pakistan - regardless of their nationality. And you expect us to come out in the streets and join you in protesting against Mushy - the guy who put an end to our slaughter? We may chew paan now and then but we don't allow that stuff to go to our brains. :) Thank you for this opportunity to exchange views. I appreciate your views and your time.

And sir, What is your rank in the Pakistan Army?

Re: # 74 Are all Indians who peruse chowk juvenile delinquents?

Re: # 72 tahmed, while speaking of Hitler and Nawaz Sharif you completely forgot about Zulfy Bhutto, and his daughter! It is unfortunate that each time there has been even a small scope of a democracy, it has been derailed or hijacked one way or another by the very people who have been clamouring for democracy all the while. It's quite amazing that the fairest of all our democratic elections took place in the times of the debauch and alcoholic dictator, Yahya Khan. Therafter Bhutto completely vandalised the outcome, as you may know and remember. Actually each charlatan politician that has had even the smallest opportunity for taking the appropriate path after coming into power and has not done so because of corruption and personal gratification is each the biggest criminal of the nation. Unfortunately the same ilk of corrupt politicians still abound. Who and where are the selfless leaders here, the Nelson Mandelas?

Matrix,

Indians have a lot to offer. We have told the pakistanis several times, forget about democrazy, it is not for pakistan. Become a true islamic republic led by a mullah general and that is the best scenario for india. Once that happens, pakistan will be iraquised, divided intto another three and then only there will be peace in south asia.

Another optiont oregaim sovereignity is the north korean option.

Now, is it not good enough options for the pakistanis.

I would say that the article brings out some interesting facts and there is need to look at role US and India. On the other hand, I don't buy this as an excuse for ignoring rule of Law and democracy. That is the best antidote to foreign interventions and bring unity.
It is also instructive to see the reaction of Indians posting on this article. My question to them is that why any Pakistani should care about their opinion since they have nothing to offer.

#70 Goldfinger: You have answered your own question, and by and large you are right. The exception that proves this rule, btw, is Hitler - who was elected, and once elected got rid of the democratic infrastructure that brought him to power. Nawaz Sharif tried to do the same - but Pakistan today is vastly different from the Germany of almost a century ago.

The judiciary, the media, and the middle class are providing the backbone of democracy, and they will be a force to be reckoned with in future just as Musharraf has learnt the hard way.

Urstruly #54
You have too much faith in politicians.
The only reason the politicians are going to boycott is if they know they are going to loose.
I think Nawaz Sharif will play the CJ card and will carry APDM alongwith it.
In current scenario PML (N) will get slightly more or less seat than last elections.
No sane party who has vote bank will leave the field open for someone else.

Re: # 69 But what ought to be done when corrupt politicians become corrupt dictators? And when these same corrupt politicians who turned corrupt dictators come back to haunt you and aspire to again become your dictators? Obviously in democratic setup the political parties themselves would debar such criminals to show their faces to the public ever again...if such happens then we would be on path to democracy bit by bit

Indian #68 Corrupt politicians and ambitious generals will be there as long as human nature is what it is. But corrupt politicians in a democracy cannot destroy the pillars of a nation the day musharraf did on November 3 e.g. when he destroyed the Supreme Court.

I think the answer is there for all to see actually - corrupt politicans and ambitious generals need to be taught that corruption does not pay and ultimately they will be brought before court for their crimes.

Re: # 64

TAhmedsahab,

Nobody knows the answer to your question. In case of India it is corrupt politicians and in case of pakistan it is the Generals. It is infinite loop. These 500 pound gorrilas are sitting on our back for 60 years. People tell educating and empowering masses may be the answer but that will take another 200 years..

sunhari ungal yar, before 1971 india was only 5 times as big, now its 7 times as big as pakistan i think.

The armed forces and the corporate sector



By Farhatullah Babar
If the prime minister's finance adviser thought that by living in denial he could allay the widespread concerns about the army's growing involvement in the corporate sector he was gravely mistaken. In saying this, I am referring to a report in your newspaper titled 'Salman denies army role in corporate sector', and published on April 28.

If he did not know it, here is a partial list of the military's corporate enterprises as recently placed before the Parliament in reply to a question besides the several dozen similar enterprises run by Shaheen Foundation and Bahria Foundation of the Air Force and the Navy respectively.

Fauji Foundation : Fauji Sugar Mills, (more than one), Fauji Cereal, Fauji Corn Complex, FONGAS (Natural gas supply company), Fauji Poly Propylene Products, Fauji Fertilizer Company (FFC), Fauji Jordan Company, Fauji Cement, Fauji Oil Terminal Company Project (FOTCO), Fauji Kabirwala Power Company Limited.

Army Welfare Trust: Askari Stud Farms, Askari Farms, Askari Welfare Rice Mill, Askari Welfare Sugar Mill, Askari Fish Farm, Askari Cement (more than one plant), Askari Welfare Pharmaceutical Project, Magnesite Refineries Limited, Army Welfare Shoe Project, Army Welfare Woollen Mill, Army Welfare Hosiery Unit, Travel Agencies, AWT Commercial Plazas, Army Welfare Shops, Army Welfare Commercial Project, Askari Commercial Bank, Askari Leasing Limited, Askari General Insurance Company, Askari Welfare Saving Scheme, Askari Associate Limited, Askari Information Service, Askari Guards Limited, Askari Power Limited, Askari Commercial Enterprises, Askari Aviation, Askari Housing Schemes (at several locations)

The adviser claimed that retired military officers were involved in private businesses and that too for welfare purposes but is the Fauji Foundation really a private concern like any other.

Under its Scheme of Administration the Fauji Foundation is allowed "to receive from government or other bodies or person any contribution to the Foundation". Which other private enterprise gets contributions from the government also?

The Fauji Foundation is administered by a committee whose chairman is the defense secretary and its members include four principal staff officers of the GHQ and two senior officers of the Pakistan Navy and the Air Force, all paid out of the public funds. A three star serving general was appointed in 2002 as its chief. What a fine example of a private enterprise run by serving military officers and defense secretary.

During question hour in the Senate last year it transpired that the finance ministry accepted loan liabilities of 9 billion rupees of the Foundation. Which other private concern had been provided such a preferential treatment?

Worse still, after being declared 'private' they are declared as unaccountable too. In reply to a question in the National Assembly in 2005 it transpired that the Khoski Sugar Mills belonging to the Foundation had been sold at 300 million to an entity that had not even participated in the bidding process. The highest bid of 387 million was ignored. When the Senate Defence Committee asked the head of the Fauji Foundation, himself a former chairman of NAB, to appear before it he refused and chose to refute the allegations through newspaper ads. We were told to shut up.

If the FF and AWT are claimed to be private entities what are other entities like the Frontier Works Organization (FWO) and the NLC doing in the private commercial sector in a playing field that too is tilted in their favour? According to information placed before the Senate on December 30, 2005 the National Highway Authority (NHA) alone awarded twelve contracts costing over 18 billion to the FWO without bids between 2001 and 2005.

Further, not only the contract of collecting toll tax on toll plazas have been given to FWO and NLC without bids but contracts already given to private parties were cancelled and given to it according to information placed before the Senate.

The military's growing interests in corporate businesses and land has now begun to attract national and international attention and criticism but we are living in self-denial.

That was why the former British High Commissioner in Pakistan Mark Lyall Grant publicly stated about two years ago in Islamabad that the military's corporate business interests had increased manifold. He also said that it was hampering poverty reduction efforts and effectiveness of the bureaucracy and judiciary in the country. An un-named senior official of the Foreign Office promptly announced that a demarche had been served on the high commissioner for his critical remarks as 'unwarranted and inaccurate besides being an infringement of diplomatic norms'. But that did not change the reality.

Are the defence housing authorities also really private bodies competing with other private entities in a level playing filed? Is there any other private housing society that is headed by a serving corps commander and whose executive functionaries such as the Administrator are serving senior army officers drawing salary from public exchequer? Is there any other private housing authority that can get land at a price as the DHA Karachi got sometime back and against which the provincial government even moved the court?

During question hour in Parliament it has transpired that military officers get one after 15 years of service, a second one after 25, a third one after 28 years and a fourth one after 33 years of service each worth more than 15 million rupees in the open market. To call it a welfare activity is stretching the meaning of the word a bit too far.

The un-level playing field to the military's industrial and commercial enterprises, the dispossession of tenants from farmlands in Okara belonging to the Punjab government, the acquisition of additional 870 acres of prime land in sector E-10 at dirt cheap price of Rs 200 per acre for the new GHQ (in addition to the 1470 acres already earmarked), the setting up of strings of defense housing authorities, first in Karachi and Lahore and lately in Islamabad, and converting state lands meant specifically for defense purposes into golf courses and housing colonies as disclosed in the Parliament are clear manifestations of military's growing corporate and real estate business. The issue will not disappear merely be denying it.

Come on Mr Adviser! Instead of living in a state of denial let us address the issue and do something about it.

The writer is a former PPP senator and a member of the Senate's human rights committee. Email: drkhshan@isb.comsats.net.pk

------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------


MPs assets

Last week the Pakistan Institute of Legislative Development (PILDAT) released a study of the assets of members of parliament. It analyzed who was the richest MP, who among the women members was the richest and which party had the richest MPs in its ranks. The source of the study was the declaration of assets by MPs and published in the official gazette as public document. The study made an interesting reading and PILDAT also praised the MNAs for "setting a good example of transparency by declaring their assets".

The MPs are required to annually declare their assets that are also made public. Civilian officers in pay scales 17 and above also submit every year declarations of assets to their respective departments. Their declarations, however, are confidential that are not made public. The presumption is that these are scrutinized somewhere and notice is taken of any unusual increase in the assets of a government servant. On September 19, 2003, I asked a question in the Senate, "Whether the practice of assets declaration by army officers before the Central Officers Record Office is still being continued or has been discontinued; and if discontinued, why". On Dec 19, the question was disallowed through a curt reply; "The chairman Senate has been pleased to hold the question to be inadmissible under rule 47(xvii) (d) and 47(xvii) (a) of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business in the Senate, 1988".

A month later on October 17, 2003, I moved a resolution, "This house resolves that as in the case of legislators all the judges of the superior courts, the one, two, three and four star generals, and members of civil bureaucracy in BS-21 and above should also be required to annually submit a statement of their assets and liabilities and such statements should be made public." Again a curt reply said that the resolution "does not deal with one definite issue" and declared "inadmissible under rule 121(3) of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business in the Senate, 1988". The resolution was resubmitted on May 6, 2004. It was again disallowed on the ground that since it had previously been rejected therefore it had now become inadmissible under another rule 121(3).

PILDAT analysis merely answers the question as to who among the MPs is the richest. It does not answer which class in the country is the richest. To find an answer to this question it has to dig deep and carry out an analysis of why some critical questions, motions and resolutions were killed in the chamber and not allowed to come up before the house.

Senator (r) Farhatullah Babar

No to real estate

By Farhatullah Babar


The News deserves to be complimented for calling into question the military's growing involvement in the real estate business (re: its editorial, 'No to real estate', published on November 26). The editorial was in response to General Musharraf's remarks a day before in Lahore claiming that the military was not involved in property business and that it was the biggest tax payers' institution of the country.

Over two years ago in August 2004 while speaking at the groundbreaking ceremony of a power and desalination plant for the Defence Housing Authority Karachi, General Musharraf had lashed out at the critics as being 'pseudo-intellectuals' who were 'jealous of the good work' being done by the DHAs. In Lahore now he rejected the apprehensions but refrained from denouncing harshly the critics. There is hope.

To give plots to military officers for building their own houses is a genuine welfare activity and no one would grudge it. But is the building of multi-billion integrated luxury homes with golf course townships in a posh locality in Lahore or the multi-billion dollar development of Karachi beach in association with foreign partnership also a legitimate welfare activity that should be undertaken by the military?

It is claimed that the DHAs are private bodies and they purchase land in the open market and after development sell them to all. But are the DHAs really private bodies competing with other private bodies in a level playing field? Is there any other private housing society that is headed by a serving corps commander and whose executive functionaries such as the administrator are serving senior army officers drawing salaries from the public exchequer?

During question hour in the parliament it has transpired that military officers get one after 15 years of service, a second one after 25, a third one after 28 years and a fourth one after 33 years of service each worth more than 15 million rupees in the open market. To call it welfare is stretching the meaning of the word a bit too far.

It is also said that both military officers and civilians benefit from these schemes. In reply to a Senate question on September 16, 2005 about the quota in DHA Islamabad it transpired that serving army officers with over 15 years of service had 52 per cent quota and another 10 per cent reserved for retired army officers. Serving PAF and Naval officers had 5 per cent. Civilian employees of all grades, members of parliament and the journalists were allotted 5 per cent. But the ads inviting applications do not disclose the quota of each category of applicants so everyone is lured to apply and pay a sum of five thousand rupees as 'processing fee' that is eventually forfeited to the DHA.

Welfare activity should also not be undertaken in a manner that raises questions of legality and propriety. During question hour in the Senate we learnt that the military had transformed six agricultural and dairy farms spread over several hundred acres of land into golf courses and army housing schemes thus raising many questions.

The inability to address issues of propriety unfortunately has attracted widespread criticism even from eminent international figures. In an article with reference to Pakistan in the Wall Street Journal recently, Lord Patten, former EU Commissioner for external relations made some very hurting comments. "Pro-dictatorship voices regularly argue that those parties were highly corrupt.

But they refuse to condemn or even acknowledge the military's large-scale, institutionalised corruption. So much has been grabbed by the military that it will take years just to catalogue it. The military has acquired vast tracts of state-owned land at nominal rates; its leaders dominate businesses and industries, ranging from banking to cereal factories".

On the eve of launching of the Country Assistance Plan (CAP) of UK's Department for International Development (DFID) in March last year the British High Commissioner Lyall Grant remarked that during the last 28 years the military's corporate business interests had increased manifold. It was hampering poverty reduction efforts and the effectiveness of the bureaucracy and judiciary in the country, the CAP report had said.

The military may be the largest taxpayer as is claimed but what we know from the proceedings in the parliament is that its business and commercial activities have received the largest preferential treatment. On December 30 last year the Senate was informed that out of a total of 94 contracts awarded to the FWO (another military outfit in the business of roads and infrastructure building) 57 projects costing over 25 billion had been awarded without bids. In some cases the private toll collectors' contracts were cancelled and given to the FWO and the NLC.

In February this year the Senate was informed that by November 30, 2001 over 13 billion rupees of loans owed by the Fauji Fertilizer Company Jordan had been paid by the government of Pakistan - out of taxpayers' money.

"Yes. The outstanding non-official development assistance loan in respect of the FFC, rescheduled under the Paris Club Agreement, was accepted by the government of Pakistan in December 2001. The total liability of US dollars 221.96 million as of November 30, 2001 was picked up by the government of Pakistan", said minister of state for finance Omar Ayub in reply to the question.

Welfare of some must not be seen as dispossession of others. In a December 2003 case titled Brigadier Bashir versus Abdul Karim, the Supreme Court while declaring the allotment and lease of the state's agricultural lands as illegal also quoted a paragraph from John Steinbeck's novel Grapes of Wrath that aptly put matters in perspective.

"The great owners (of land) with access to history must know: when property accumulates in too few hands it is taken away. When a majority of the people is hungry they will take away by force what they need. Repression works only to strengthen and knit the repressed. The great owners ignored three cries of history.

The land fell in few hands, the number of dispossessed increased and every effort of great owners was directed at repression. Means to destroy revolt were considered while the causes of revolt went on".

The apex court then went on to give a chilling advice to the appellant asking him to be satisfied with a "few hundred acres of land allotted to him" and spare the few acres allotted to a landless tenant.

Faiz once lamented:

"Baney hain ahlehawas mudai bhi aur munsif bhi

Kisey wakil karein kis sey munsifi chahein".

When greed becomes the prosecutor and also the judge,

Where to find the pleader and from whom to seek justice?

#63 The big question is: What will it take to ensure that Musharraf is the last ambitious, lawless general who takes over Pakistan?

This typical diatribe of the advocate of the British founded colonial Pakistan army, which has to its credit scores of surrenders from Decca to Kargil to Kabul, and decades of pillage in the name of basic democracy (Ayub), Islam (CIA-ul-Haque) and the present thug, is virtually an enemy of native people. Such asinine theories are good to fool street people as Bush and his neo-cons successfully applied for Iraq. However, in the epistemological terms these are least likely to goof few at chowk. These hindustani bahias used the same scare tactics in 1947 that they can not live with Hindus and need a separate country. That resulted in their dual occupation of Pakistan an India and Pakistan. Now they preach that current armed struggle is by any means an Indian or foreign conspiracy is a lunatic cry. After 1971 defeat every Pakistani general has nightmare of Indian soldiers sleeping with their wives. Nukes - no way are any protection to Pakistanis. Nukes were produced for profit. Nukes have become a golden chain for Pakistani people. Nukes did not liberate Kashmir rather enslaved Pakistanis. They are being used to blackmail the west. To cut long story short, there is needs to overhaul the rotten corrupt system that is breeding criminals in Pakistan.

Previously Pak Army had its stud breeding programs. They used to produce thoroughbred horses, mules and donkeys for military use.
I think it was Zia who got an idea that Army should use its enormous muscles and vast expertise to produce good type of loyal dogs as well on mass scale. For that purpose they hired Quraishi’s parents. Other notables among founding members of that canine production line were parents of Malik Qayyum, Sher Afgan, Pirzada, Hameed Dogar et al.
This Quraishi started his writing career by churning out high-quality scrap in different national dailies. After a while all of them stopped publishing his often illogical rather idiotic stuff. I remember reading a title of this “writer� somewhere

Mr. President, Why The Political Opportunism? We Could Give You A Lifetime Mandate If You Asked Us!

The only thing he is good at is unimaginable amount of TC. He can take the balls of any mortal to heights that seem impossible at first sight. He is a master @ss licker who can make a goat to believe that she is a direct descendant of a tiger.

Publishing this article is a sheer insult of the intelligence of readers. I have failed to find anything that makes sense. What a thoroughbred BS, indeed.

#60 Posted by Goldfinger on November 30, 2007 9:43:34 am


India has been unable to do what it would wish to do with its much smaller neighbour.


Umm..I think it's done quite well to keep pakis from realizing their number 1 dream: kashmir banega pakiland..

All these very valid points in this article. However, as they say, every time you point a finger at somebody else, three of your own fingers point at your own self. If things are in a sorry mess in the land of the pure, we have to look more inwards than anywhere else. The maliase and rot are from the inside out. Lets imagine the total moral and political bankruptcy plaguing us that despite the musical chairs played by sundry of our politicians again and again, and despite their moral turpitude, a majority of ignorant and lost souls, instead of booting out all these thieving politicians to kingdom come are preparing to bring them back in. What sort of democarcy is this? Can Mafia Dons win party tickets and contest elections in any other democratic setup?

As for the gloating and religious epithets pronounced by some Indians here, it need not be so. First because it would be so nice if India and Pakistan could peacefully co-exist together like Canada and the States. Second, as a 5 times larger country, its a shame that despite everything, India has been unable to do what it would wish to do with its much smaller neighbour. Third, religion is something very personal, and throughout history it has been the cause of some of the greatest strife the world over, no matter who or what the deity of worship. In other words, neither banging your head on the ground five times a day nor drinking five glasses of cow urine could get you much salvation if otherwise you happen to be a mean, wretched, wicked soul.

Is Chowk a civil society platform? I am increasingly being disillusioned on this point.
Ahmed Qureshi is PTV anchor that cherry picks facts. We see him day in and day out discrediting the journalistic profession. Why has Chowk given him additional space. He is already polluting the TV airspace; this, while the independent journalists are being incarcerated.

The absurd point that Quershi is making is that civil society does not have legs to stand on... and hidden forces are propping us up. Qureshi does not shed light into why a civil scoiety leaders like Munir Malik has mysterioluy been rendered bed ridden.

We all know that Musharraf was propped up by the West because he had no electoral legitimacy and he was spineless and he would be pushover on the international scene. And if he dare say anything to the West, he would be back into a pariah dog status (that a dictator deserves from day 1).

He let the Indians build a fence on a disputed territory without batting an eyelid. He went on to sell his book in the West and portray Pakistan as a terrorist country with only him being the savoir. Musharraf has made a mockery of all our institutions and is taking us back to the jungle.

Quershi has been supporting him to the hilt on PTV. He has been hogging the airwaves while independent channels are being censored. Chowk needs to revisit its editorial standards to say the least.

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What a mess, what a mess in the Land of the Pure!!

What is going on in Pakistan is one big political drama. How entertaining!.

I wonder why in the world, these Pakistani leaders did not bother- in the last 60 years- going about the serious business of building the nation than embarking on foolish adventures of training Jihadis, fighting covert wars in Kashmir and pursuing stupid Afghan policies ? These idiots even lost half of the coubtry!

Will this bfdolly ever change? Will Allah vget off his ass and drive some sense to his followers?
Kamath

Re: # 54 "....150 top brass that need to be court martialed and hanged. ......."

Care to list these guys?

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I have a very low opinion of Pakistani politicians and still believe that the best treatment that they should get is that they be lined up against the wall, and be shot yet credit must be given where it is due. I applaud APDMs boycott of these sham kanjarkhana elections.

But still this is only a very minor step they have taken viz a viz confinedence building measure with the nation. So the best advise to Bezamir and Sirkari moulvi Fazalurrehamn is to stop being pigs and listen to the call of the nation. NaPak fouj has no place in Pakistan. Its not jsut Mucharraf but atleast 150 top brass that need to be court martialed and hanged. Anything less than that is totally unacceptable.

zee

if hinuds are pigs, you being grand-son of grandpa gopinath, puts you in the same category... But then, since your bedouin faith is so irrationally antagonistic towards pigs - you are pretty much a walking living contradiction...

To be true to your faith, you are supposed to behead yourself, just for being who you are - a descendant of the most unclean animal in the planet... right?

I just heard (breathless icon here), that mush-e-ruff-the-muff has been awarded the Bharat Ratna, in absetia and in secret. The medal and certificate are locked up in a selaed vault.

Now wonder mush-e-ruff is carrying out Indian's agenda.

#49 Posted by VRV ,

err ... I highlighted the operative common characteristics between hindoos and the subjects of this Economist article :)

Re: # 48 Chetan

Glad to see your true colors!!!!!!!!!! I would request staff to keep this posted here so that people can learn the truth!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: # 46 when did you become an "apostate"?

You deserve to be stoned to death....and I will be first in the queue

Considering the busy congregation of hindoos here, it is not difficult to see what the following article is about:

The hunt for the odourless (hindoos?)

Nov 22nd 2007 | CARROLL COUNTY
From The Economist

Regulating America's (?) farms

IN TWO long buildings in Carroll county, Indiana, some 8,000 (?) are doing what they do best: eating, defecating and squealing.

(http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/displ aystory.cfm?subjectid=348924&story_id=10189184)

Re: # 41 pmishra2

Please don't try to befool people with your emotional rhetoric. Put forward facts. If you have any argument against the theory presented by the author, please do enlighten us.

Re: # 4o PM2 you are being way to subtle

Re: # 37 please see chowk UP and also the following http://chowk.com/interacts/13060/1/0/32#349976 (i.e ineract #5)

Hopefully, you have now become aware of the concept of shooting yourself in the foot, if you were not before! ;-)

Re: # 40 pmishra2

Pretty neat. Hit pakis where they really get hit - get emotional like foolish Musharraf. You love us, don't you!

I would rather ask about the high role being displayed by indians in Kabul and Afghanistan and instigating unrest in Baluchistan?

And thanks for the credit for civil society in Pakistan though!

Also, I forgot, there is no mention of joos !! At least it should have mentioned zionism, which is terrible plot to enslave the entire world. They are the real master race - forget about these altu-phaltu hindus who are busy worshipping their 2,340,0003 gods and so have little time to do anything else.

What is this, yaar ! America is run by Joos - just look at Bill Gates and George W. Bush. All Joos in secret! - yup, thats is the real hidden secret of zionism.

Maybe your next article should deal with this topic?

I am really angry to the low role given to indians in this article. Also there is no mention given to hindus!! NONE ! What is this, how come there is no discussion of "chanakya" or "bania mentality" or "hindu cunning" or "brhaminical fascism".

As an indian and hindu, I feel pretty insulted. All the credit for the bravery of the pakistani lawyers (now there is some real steel and stamina) and demos by media, students and others is going to the USA!

Not fair and not true. We are are much more trickier than Jon Stewart and far more subtle than the barbarian american ruling class. Please give credit where it is due!

Re: # 38 muqaddam

What do you mean by referring to "toilet paper". Your own thought seem to be rotten! I would request editors to ban people who simply ridicule a poster without talking sense and logic.

What a crappy article! If it had come to me in the snailmail box, I would have used it as toilet paper

Re: # 35 iron_mask

I am a casual visitor here, but I think Ahmed Qureshi has done a nice job with this analysis. You only tried to ridicule him, but did not put forward any of your own arguments against his. If you have any, please do share.

Re: # 26 #27 by rf786 vanguard

Seeing how some people seem scared by this article, lends credence to the theory of the author. However, I only disagree him in justifying the stance taken by Musharraf against this JOINT effort of US and india to destabilize Pakistan. Even if Musharraf has correctly decoded this plan, he has been unable to raise an effective counter initiative. He has only helped the agenda of destabilization of Pakistan progress faster. Did not he really helped it when he launched operation in Wazirstan and now in Swat to turn Taliban against us so as to make them vulnerable to be used against us. Please note, beofore these operations, their full attention was only to root foreign elements out of Afghanistan. If FOREIGN elements are to expelled from the borders of Pakistan and Afghanistan, then first and foremost, US and NATO forces should leave the terriotry. Their very presence lets credence to the presence of other "foreign" elements over there. Mr. Musharraf should take a tougher stance rather than the cringling attitude he has adopted.

boy, people seem to want to spend time on this article....(guilty here as well)....but 34 interacts...I am surprised.

You guys have plenty of time on your hands.....

#31 Posted by zeemax on November 30, 2007 3:45:26 am

Pureland is also America's testing ground for hellfires..

US to target Al Qaeda hideouts inside Pakistan, says Bush

By Anwar Iqbal


WASHINGTON, Nov 29: US President George W. Bush has said that he will still send American troops into Pakistan if he gets actionable intelligence that Osama bin Laden and other Al Qaeda leaders are hiding somewhere in the country.

Last year, Mr Bush caused uproar in Pakistan when he declared that he would authorise direct US military action if he had evidence that senior Al Qaeda leaders were hiding somewhere in the country.

Later, US officials assured Pakistan that while they retained the option to target Al Qaeda leaders anywhere in the world, they would take no action that could destabilise a friendly government.

In an interview to CNN on Wednesday evening, Mr Bush was reminded of his earlier declaration and asked if this was still his position. “Yes,� he said.

“Has not changed?� the interviewer asked. “No, has not changed,� said Mr Bush.

Mr Bush, however, acknowledged Pakistan as a key ally in the war against terror and praised its cooperation in bringing Al Qaeda leaders to justice.

In Pakistan, the US position on sending troops to target alleged Al Qaeda hideouts inside the Pakistani territory is seen as contradictory to Washington’s claim that Islamabad is a key ally in the war against terror. But in the US, this issue is viewed differently.

Two words:

(a) Paranoia
(b) Conspiracy theory fantacism
(c) bad interpolation

okay 6 words.

Currently, it is confusing Pakistan and pakistanis as to what is happening to them. Floundering around loking for a rationale to join the dots and create a smoke screen for the failings, on a grand scale, of the elite and the establishment.

But first things first.

(a) Hang the picture of jinnah everywhere but forget him. he is of no use right now 60 years after pakistan has been founded.
(b) bring in rule of law - equality of law, equality of RIGHTS and DUTIES
(c) usher in One-man One-Vote (OMOV). FORGET DEMOCRACY FOR NOW, this aint gonna happen. But OMOV is a starter.
(d) Ensure no civiian rushes to the Army and begs it to take over the running of the country as has happened in the past. This is an invitation for disaster.

After that get down to the nitty-gritty and gets hands and mnds dirty in trying to run the country.

Authors fantasm beggars belief though.

Re: # 28
yes pratitya samutpada is the reality

#28 Posted by harish_hyd

For years, Pakistan has treated Afghanistan as its backyard .. now we have Pakis accusing Afghanistan of doing the same.

This is true. Pakistan is now indeed Afghanistan's backyard.

Note the following excerpt from the latest Osama Bin Laden audio:

"They will go back to their homelands beyond the Atlantic, and they will leave the neighbors to finish off their interests among themselves,"

In fact the author accurately points out numerous forces working simultaneously in Pakistan, but the correlations he draws between them are wishful thinking at best, and simplistic fantasy at the worst.

A lot of ridicule - some grudging acceptance - a little civility and commendation, spiced with a wee bit of doubting on Pak Army's "hidden workings"!
Seriously, haven't you chaps heard of the 'jewish conspiracy/protocols of the elders of zion' [Moscow, 1895], Why were the 2000 years of wandering suddenly turned into a neat enclave for the "12 lost tribes" and that chap Balfour planted? Why did the 'pograms' of Hitler happen?; how did the world take notice of that ridiculous Huntington's 'clash of civilisations'; or 'the end of history'; who encouraged the Armed Forces Journal to bring up 'blood borders' right in the middle of the desperation of bloodied Iraq?? - a follow-up to the set-up job with the Russians for creating 'the BLA'? And the Indians conveniently be-friending the Northern Alliance, and becoming their godfathers, with really cozy arrangements on the Afghan-Pakistan borders?? - and, finally, the 'neo-con agenda'??
Why is it that nobody - but nobody - talks of the many 'jewish, ready-to-defrag' bombs & nukes? But, omigosh!, so much cussedness and frothing on the 'islamic bomb'??!!
Those of you who sound-off about the "b-s" and "crap" and "nonsense' and whatnot, do give your little grey cells a bit of fresh-air, and 'thiMk'!!
Relax - this whole space is a non-sequiter: but do pray to The Almighty that Created you!!

Afghanistan, under America’s watch, has turned into a vast staging ground for sophisticated psychological and military operations to destabilize neighboring Pakistan.

Now if only this statement were true, it would gladden our hearts. For years, Pakistan has treated Afghanistan as its backyard, indulging in all kinds of dirty tricks to the point that it almost turned the country into a failed state - the Taliban staffed with Paki Army regulars and Paki pilots flying their airforce planes and what not? And now we have Pakis accusing Afghanistan of doing the same. Karma is catching up with Pakistan I think.

Dear Chowk Staff,

Delightfully abysmal post such as these deserve nothing but our sincere gratitude for exposing the workings of Pakistani propagandists.

What a load of crap!!!

First I get the same thing in my mail box to which I send a befitting reply. Now the same thing gets it place on first page of Chowk.

Sometimes I wonder why it takes a ages for good stuff to come on Chowk whereas every piece of crap makes it to Chowk daily. This one is no exception

The meaning of democracy.

from dawn of today


What a contrast!


THIS is with reference to a minor news report carried by the national and international press regarding frisking of Indian army, navy and air force chiefs at airports.

The report goes on to state that India’s civil aviation ministry has refused to exempt the chiefs of Indian armed forces from being frisked at airports on grounds that it would lead to similar demands from other authorities.

After reading this report, I am beginning to understand why India is a democracy, and why we have strayed from that path. While Indian armed forces’ chiefs are frisked at airports, we are only reminded of the ugly incident wherein the son of our infamous ex-law minister beat a fellow passenger black and blue when the latter demanded that the former be subjected to security checks like all other passengers.

In this country, there has always been a consensus that the United States will take direct military action if it has “actionable intelligence� suggesting that Al Qaeda leaders are hiding at a particular place anywhere in the world, including Pakistan.

President Bush’s first statement on this issue was discussed in both houses of the US Congress and both Republican and Democratic lawmakers agreed that nothing should prevent the United States from taking direct military action, not even Pakistan’s angry reaction.

Among Pakistani politicians, former prime minister Benazir Bhutto is aware of America’s position on this issue and that’s why she has indicated that if elected, she may allow direct US military actions against Al Qaeda targets.

The above is from dawn of today. The daughter of the east is the need of the hour, and it reinforces the authors view.

Any supporters for North korean option for pakistan.

#@22,

I fully agree, those pakistanis denigrating the author are the ones who do not want to accept the reality that most pakistanis beleive that they can do nothing, they are an impotent lot.

The man has told the truth according to the pakistanis. Let us give him credit.

Lets not redicule.He has put forth a view that has some substance.

YOUR article is highly readable . There are lot of true facts in it . But u miss a few points.pak army is not an angel . its officer corps do live like kings. Every officer gets scores of plots, house,flat . Millions of acres have been given to them . The detauls given in Ayesha'Siddiquas book are correct . Nobody would have noticed the book had it not contained truth . Secondly it is a blatant lie on your part that the investment in nuclear programme is funded by militarys alternative financial sources(military's commercial businesses) and thats why they are being targeted for defamation . the fact is that nuclear programme is entirely funded by taxpayers . The fact is that pak army and its supporters like you can hardly complain of american plans . Ha not pak army always called for american intervention to solve kashmir problem? It has recieved 10 billion dollars in aid from america . It has decided to again buy F16s from america even after previous bad experience . Pak army became American ally by choice and now it must pay the price for it . If today Americans want to cap our nuclear program,are they not justified?We know Qadir Khan sold technology everywhere with full knowlege of generals . yet you make it seem that pak army is totally innocent party that is being unjustably targeted . the nuclear program was set up by civilian pm ZAB and we know what the army did to him . As far as baluchistan is concerned Baluchis have a just grievance also . Pak army has allotted thoysands of acres across the baluch coastline to build housing colonies . All this would turn baluchis into redindians. Bugti became a rebel only and only after the military made plans to set up 3 cantonements in his area . Why?Just to steal gas.

So while as pakistani i am against american plans to cap our nuclear capability , i will not support mush or the officer corps . They deserve punishment for enriching themselves while losing every war to india .

We talk about democracy being the only way forward, in a country like Pakistan where literacy rate is extremely low, the masses are manipulated by either the land owners or the mullah's in the name of religion. What good is the democracy that allowed both Sharif and Bhutto to get away with murder, raping and pillaging of country's resources. If these two were such leaders concerned about the welfare of Pakistan they should have stayed in the country and fought the charges against them so their names can be cleared. Of course they chose to leave the country under self imposed exile or a deal and wait for the opportune moment to come back.
We don't need the army running the country but we also don't need the same two thugs that have already shown what they will do once they get power.
It is time for Pakistani's to either pick new and honest leaders or live with dictators.

An all time low for CHOWK.

I have had to put up with reading political nonsense

here for the past couple of months.

Bahot Khoob Quraishi Sahib, too much hot air here for me.

Democracy is really the only way forward.

Please address that in your future articles.

Too many conspiracy theories do not make up for real

analysis. Such loose canon such....

Ama yaar Ahmed Quraishi, why would anyone go to all that trouble to make Mushy do his (or her) bidding when all they need to do is to call the man on the phone.

"Frederick W. Kagan and Michael O’Hanlon, representing deeply conservative and supposedly liberal think tanks respectively, also hinted at the possibility of neutralising Pakistan’s weapons. Their joint comment coincided with a report on which the NYT had sat for three years, at the Bush administration’s behest, to the effect that the US had been helping Pakistan since 2001 to keep its nuclear weapons secure.

There is a better way of dealing with this contingency. Nuclear weapons were always a bad idea for Pakistan. They are now evidently threatening its sovereignty. It could — and should — set an excellent example by doing away with them altogether."

The above is from mihir ali of dawn.

At last there are some sensible people in pakistan talking about the north korean option for pakistan.

As long as pakistan has the bomb, the americans will not let them live in peace. Pakis will alawys be made impotent.

For the first time ever, the indian airforce is participating in a red flag joint exercise with the nato and the US.

Quraishi saab, how about considering de-nuking of pakistan as good option, to set the country free.

There is a saying, a rabit, in this case a feral goat, cannot shit like an elephant, by trying to emulate india in making the bomb, pakis have done just that, and all of their innards are out there for the americal vultures to pick on.

A very good article in line with the dominant paki world view, Pakistanis are impotent pawns in an american game.

Only thing they got is the book, and one should support the jihadis, because they follow the book.

Great.

Good to know that indians are also actively pushing the pakis around.

Quraishi sahib,

An excellent article with very deep insights. I always believed that India had a hand in all this but could not really articulate my suspicion. Your precise logical analysis with empirical substantiation and insightful querries have convinced me that what I suspected is true. I really hope that the pride of Pakistan, its army, does not get weakened. And by the way, please do not pay any attention to these chowky idiots. They will be all over you with NGO type assertions. Just brush them off. You sir rule. By the way is there any chance that you would care to join the discussion in the interacts space? If you do I, at least, will be much obliged.

Great piece and keep up the good work for Pakistan.

"Pakistan has no quarrel with Afghanistan’s Taliban."?

this in sum is the crux of the article!!

dayumn....masadi..I owe you an apology...this guy is way out of your league..

surely this guy can't be real...if he is, then al-lah created him solely for the mocking pleasure of the horrible hindoos

http://www.ahmedquraishi.com/article_detail.php?id=92

Why Pakistan Needs To Avoid South Asia

ISLAMABAD— Pakistan adjusted its identity and national security direction at three crucial times in its history; first after Pakistan’s independence; second, after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan; and third, after 9/11.



And in each time, the Middle East and the United States were the common denominators. Our interests overlapped with Washington’s and, at the same time, our umbilical cord with West Asia was further emphasized.



After each one of the three historic events, Pakistan became more integrated with its Middle Eastern and Central Asian roots. Moreover, those events unintentionally helped deepen and broaden the definition of Pakistani nationalism that would have otherwise been exclusively centered on India.

Islamabad should change its official line gradually and quietly. Pakistan is not part of South Asia. Instead, Pakistan is a borderline state between West, Central, and South Asia. Pakistan’s historic, cultural and ethnic ties to West and Central Asia must be vigorously emphasized and given priority over any ties to South Asia.



Pakistan’s state television should take the first step in that direction. Weather bulletins must not show Pakistan as an extension of South Asia. A better replacement could be a map showing the country as an extension of West and Central Asia.

Nuts!

Seriously pakis? who's being fooled...the US has already bombed pakis on paki soil..what's the point of expressing outrage when you can't do jack squat?

Bush could send troops into Pakistan to strike Bin Laden

* Pakistan terms such action ‘unacceptable’ and ‘counter-productive’

ISLAMABAD: The US would send troops into Pakistan if intelligence was received enabling a strike at Al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden, AFP quoted US President George W Bush as saying on Wednesday.

Pakistan angrily reacted to the US president’s remarks he made in an interview to CNN, by saying, “such concerns have been expressed on a number of occasions. We have made it clear that any such action would be unacceptable.�

Bush reaffirmed his confidence in President Musharraf’s commitment in the war against terror and also acknowledged the difficult situation in combating terrorists along rugged mountainous areas bordering Afghanistan. Bush said he is thankful to Pakistan for its key cooperation in the fight against terror, reported APP.

About Musharraf, Bush said, “He has been an absolute reliable partner in dealing with extremists and radicals, and it’s a tough situation in the remote parts of Pakistan. But there are many examples of where the Pakistanis have, in cooperation with the US, brought to justice members of Al Qaeda’s hierarchy. And I’m thankful for that.�

Troops unacceptable: Foreign Ministry spokesman Muhammad Sadiq told a private TV channel on Thursday that any direct action by US troops would be counter-productive, NNI reported.

Sadiq said that Pakistan and the US were partners in the anti-terror war and the positions of both are well defined and understood.

He said Pakistan’s own forces had carried out operations against Al Qaeda and other ‘terrorist entities’ and that they would pursue the same policy in future.

Last year, Bush caused uproar in Pakistan when he made a similar declaration.

When reminded of the declaration and asked in the interview about his current views, the US president said his stance had not changed. agencies

My theory is that Ahmed Quraishi's articles are being included on chowk to make masadi look rational...

this dude is bat-shit crazy..

Quraishi Sahib, you just missed a fine point in your nonsense conspiratorial propagandistic rhetorical anti-US gibberish written article, and that is the overwhelming influence peddled by KSA. If you consider that Pakistan is free from the clutches of KSA, just evaluate what happened to Musharraf’s last visit to KSA, where he pleaded King Abdullah not to allow Nawaz Shariff to return back to Pakistan. As reported the King kicked Mush’s behind, and ordered him to allow Nawaz Shariff back in his home country. That is the power of KSA’s wealth that the lap dancer’s of Pakistan’s military are now used to for all these years since Zia. Open your mind and see what is happening behind the scene, and face the facts. Pakistani ruling elite have sold Pakistan to the highest bidder, and the highest bidders are the petro-dollars.

Warning: The following may be offensive to professors of Poultry Science and or Sexology at minor American colleges.

The author gives too much credit to Indians in the attempts to topple Musharraf.

The Indian Cabinet of Ministers regularly meets to conduct circle-jerks after which it recesses promptly and goes to Sonia Gandhi's house to get permission to engage in the same activity again.

If Manmohan Singh does not participate fully in this, that is because he was neutered long ago. Nevertheless, he is a hanger-on and an accomplice.

Please do not give too much credit to people who normally run around like a chicken with its head cut off, to quote Ambassador Ronen Sen.

Even when their heads were firmly attached to their bodies, these people were bested in any intellectual exercise by chickens, geese, ducks, turkeys, partridges, quail, Cornish game hens or other fowl.

was not paki military toppled in a racecourse ground a few decades back?

Great piece on the anguished life of an army brothel -- I am glad Chowk published it as a 'balancing' view from the 'other' side.

Even a praciticing prostitute is entitiled to dream -- once a while -- about celibacy self respect and self esteem -- after servicing the 9/11 clients day and night for 9 years going into 11.

very refreshing!

So all of this is a smoke screen to cut the army down to size?


It appears from the author's write up that the army is asking for another $10 Billion to allow Benazir to sit on the throne
(that she was almost killed while sitting on another throne recently is another point....)

The author lets the cat out of the bag at the end when says:

"The Americans have been telling everyone in the world that they have paid Pakistan $10 billion dollars over the past five years. They might think this gives them the right to decide Pakistan’s destiny. What they don’t tell the world is how Pakistan’s help secured for them their biggest footprint ever in energy-rich Central Asia.

If they forget, Islamabad can always remind them by giving them the same treatment that Uzbekistan did last year."

Ahmed Quraishi needs to smoke some really good stuff - or he is cribbing the good stuff has stopped coming in from Afghanistan.

Qureshi sahab,

Please get into some drug rehabilitation program before its too late.

I am sure that US is not an angel, and as far as the their intentions are concerned, they might be the same as you say, but who the hell gave them the chance to interfere in the matters of Pakistan.

Why BLA popped up? Are we doing justice to Baluchistan since independence? So don't blame them for BLA; its natural reaction. And yes, any bloody enemy will take benefit of your internal strife; this is called taking benefit from opportunity; remember we supported Khalistanis. But again why you allowed this internal problem to pop up at the first place.

As great Arabic poet Abul Alaa Mu'arry is depicted as saying in one of Iqbal's poem, "hay jurm-e-zaeefi ki saza marg-e-mafajaat". So buddy wake up.... If they are upto something then its your fault and no one else to blame for it. And yes, which is the institution that governed Pakistan for more than half of its age. Shouldn't you blame them...........

Good enough story for a bollywood movie.

But

This is a crap article. I could not go on beyond 3 paragraphs. Qureshi is certainly not a journalist. He is a propagandist. A new low for Chowk...

Qureshi, wake up and smell the coffee!!! We have a civil society in Pakistan that is demanding independence of institutions. Do not tivialise our aspirations.

If you want to support a dim-wit DICTATOR that is your prerogative, but respect your opponents.

There is no doubt that Chowk is the BS Central of the world but this article is the king of all BSs. Jeez