An Insight Into Pakistan Army and Musharraf

# 73
Well said:
"and i don't want my friend from the army to get a salary and perks and plots beyond what those of his qualification in the civilian world are getting........"

Renumeration should be in cash and cash alone, not parcels of land. Musharaf has acquired a lot of land during his over-extended stint in the Army (from farm housing to Lahore DHA to agricultural acreage, etc). Call a spade a spade, institutionalised corruption with false patriotism.

Re: # 79

smellthecoffee,

Array bhai, puray ke puray hindustani dhulay huay
nahi hai, chaaval me ek aadh kala to hoga hi.

#76 Posted by mohar11,

... but we don't over invoice coffins for our shaheeds.

Re: # 73

"and try to reform totally this national institution that is well on its way to going to the dogs....."


That is where we are wrong. We do not need to reform an institution which has no purpose in the globalized world. We must disbanned it completely. Isn't it quite obvious after 9/11 that along with the two towers the old paradigm of army and war has collapsed as well.

Lets take the two wars that have happened since 9/11. The first war the 2nd Gulf war that has happened and still going on between the largest and most technically advanced military in the history of mankind with a country that was forced to unarm using international institutions for 10 years. The US entered Iraq after making sure that there won't be any resistance from Iraqi side. Five year later the people of the invaded country have refused to lay down their weapons and the superpower gets its nose rubbed in the sand. Same thing is Afghanistan where not one but 37 countries and their armies have invaded it. Afghanistan itself did not have any army and yet war continues in its sixth year.

What does it tell you? Is n't it obvious that military and war paradigm has shifted. Now its the people who defend their countries not armies. The days of armies invading other countries have also demised as this superpower evacuates these two countries. An era is about to end.

In this new paradigm what justifies half a million army in Pakistan; this despite being a nuclear reality? The only reform that military in pakistan needs is that it should gradually be reduced to less than 100K. More money should be invested instead into remote war technology. The political reform of army is a different issue and everyone knows what to do.

....since one is highlighting negative, to be objective, one should highlight positives also......

1. the enlisted in the military, who are nearly 90%(?) of the military, in pakistan, are very hard-working and dedicated, and are under-paid

2. upto the rank of captain or major, the pakistan military is quite dedicated and non-corrupt

3. pakistan military is a meritocracy.....the best (relative term, in comparison to civilians) do make it to the top

4. pakistan military provides equal opportunity, by far in comparison to rest of pakistan, to ethnic and religious minorities

5. pakistan military is a middle class or lower middle class institution, which allows sons of poor people to become generals (like kayani)....

unfortunately, the degeneration far outweighs the good points now.....anytime a military becomes the biggest industrial house of a country, it will degnerate......and it is everyone's job to critique that.....

Re: # 70
[... Lets accept the fact that NaPak fouj doesn't have it in them to pursue an objective until its logical conclusion...]

that's right... that's because you pakis simply do NOT have intellectual and physical capabilities for this... you guys just know how to talk big and talk trash... example - pakiwolf... :)

Wars in Bdesh, kashmir, Kargil are cases in point... you start wars that you have no idea how to finish... you had no capabilities to do any of this - yet you jumped in to the fire... and got your a##es handed over to you...

Even the primitive life forms learn from its mistakes... but you pakis don't... you repeat the mistakes again and again...

ijaz_gul #: "he gathered such an insight about the entire working of the armed forces. Today, he brings his alma mater from JCB to aeronautical engineering to disrepute. Surely with his training and degree courses, he hardly had a chance to serve in the field army as he exited early...."

this is the kind of thinking, which, in my opinion, has destroyed pakistan......one's loyalty should not be to jcb, or sargodha or pma or pn.......one's loyalty should be to one's country....and if one sees jcb or risalpur providing training, which brainwashes people into beating up lawyers and judges, then one should heavily criticize it......even if they are alma maters......

.....this is the difference between you and mateen and me....i have zero loyalty to any institution in pakistan....or i have equal loyalty to all........one's loyalty should be to pakistan....otherwise one will turn into musharraf and kayani and commit treason......the highest crime in the land.....

......i never served a day in the judiciary.....yet i am supporting it against the military.....should my loyalty be with military, which has destroyed the judiciary, or the other way around......

.......one doesn't need to be a genius to figure out how organizations function.....a captain, sql ldr. flt. lt or lt cdr. can figure it out.....i recall writing a paper on such a re-org as a 24 year old......needless to say, it was not taken very well.......

age is, thus, absolutely no criteria in competence.....

the biggest asset in evaluating organizations is not how much time one has spent in one organization (that actually makes one narrow-minded).....the real criteria is how many different organizations one has been exposed to......

....only those who have seen pakistan's military and the private sector, from the inside, can carry out a clear evaluation.....

Re: # 65 paki fool

More blah blah... the same old naked big0try against hinuds and tired excuses of a sore loser...

Like other pakis have acknowledged, you pakis lost that war, fair and square... you have been losing battles and wars for a long time... deal with it... :)...

MateenMM "...By and large, however, I would imagine that Pakistan Army is still largely made up of better-than-average personnel: soldiers and officers....the lack of esteem for an exemplary Institution.........as they did not see much in you and gave you all those "bad reports" which would have prevented your promotion even to the rank of major!!]"

....i was at the top of my batch, in nearly every single area, throughout, from issb till graduation.....there were only a couple of other guys, in the same category, as me.......and all of us have left, or are about to leave........those who will become generals from our batch in any of the forces, were way way behind us.....while in the private sector, i have met quite a few pakisanis, whom i would rank higher than myself.........

i left because i found the militry very suffocating and because i could not stand the, "yes man" culture......no one had the courage to point out what was wrong....in a sense, everyone resembled you (and general kayani).......this is why, not a a single general has resigned, and have carried out treason (ghaddari), while so many judges have resigned.....

pakistan military has a lot of problems....if you cannot see them, then i am afraid you have far too little exposure to things outside the military.....

.....instead of giving subjective emotional arguments, i tend to rely on facts.....to me, everything pakistani is equally important......and should be judged on merit....

......there is absolutely no exposure or education avaialable to military officers to increase their capabilities......specifically, those in the command branches......i have seen both the private sector and the military.....both are pakistani in my opinion.....one should highlight the strengths and weakneses of both.......

...there is not a single colleague of mine in the command branches of paf, pn or army, who could have qualified for any engg. or medical college in pakistan......the ones in the army couldn't even come close.....this would imply that the lowest merit civilian engineer has more intelligence than them......

.....i have worked with pakistanis, of my age, who are harvard graduates and are running banks, and i have friends who are my age and have graduated from military academies and are doing staff colleges.......

trust me, there is absolutely no comparison.......its like comparing sachin tendulkar to a club cricketer.....

there is nothing wrong with that.....the job of the army is to fight....and my colleague from pma will fight much better than the one from harvard.....

......but then, he should stick to fighting.......he should not be running the country's largest real estate companies, logistic cells, banks, fertilizer companies.....

and most of all, he should definitely have no say in any of the policies of the country.......he should just execute the orders given to him to fight.......

however, in pakistan, things are on their head......what you refer to as mere, "pomp" is an outright control of the country......the army controls the country's judiciary, legislature, executive, business and even media.........what else is left.......

i have nothing against my roommate from the army, who will, someday, become a general.....he deserves it.......but i don't want him doing anything other than fighting........i don't want him running the country or even its banks......that should be left to my friend from harvard......

and i don't want my friend from the army to get a salary and perks and plots beyond what those of his qualification in the civilian world are getting........he has a b.a. from pma (non-recognized) and will, get an m.a in some archaic subject like strategic studies.....what do people with such qualifications make in the civilian sector.....not much.....this guy, will retire, as a general and a crore-patti.....

the only thing any soldier has, in any country, is respect.....the day he loses that he has lost everything.......it is not a coincidence that the only people defending the status quo on this site, in regard to the military, are you (and ijaz)......you are part of the system........

let's call a spade a spade, and try to reform totally this national institution that is well on its way to going to the dogs.....you, unnecessarily, defending, it doesn't make you more patriotic......it actually makes you more loyal to the army, but less patriotic to pakistan......

Link to meeting a few days back of Musharraf reps with Pakistanis in NY. Over an hour long - but worth it. While the musharraf's lawyer Saif, like musharraf, tried to hog the time by rambling on with fake "facts" - the audience was not fooled and gave hell to the trio (note the first question in particular, which was the most polite and at the same time the most devastating of all - reminding the trio of the death penalty under the 1973 Constitution for committing a coup).

http://www.asiasociety.org/resources/pakemergency.html

The only war that Pakistan has ever won, where it captured territory and maintained it was the Jihad of Kashmir in 1948 under the leadership of a civilian leader and fought by a rag tag army of civilians. That is when Azad Kashmir won its independence and became part of Pakistan.

I think the only thing that Napak fouj has ever done right was its decision to counter the soviet exansionism and startegy to achieve this objective. In 60 years of span this single right is still quite pathetic.

Re: # 65 Pakwolf

It does not matter whether Indians achieved their objectives fair and square or not. The point is that we lost both politically and militarily because of the NaPak fouj and its complete disregard for constitution, lawlessness, and incompetence; not to mention a total disregard for the lives of the citizens of Pakistan. Well if Indians rub our nose in dirt over 1971, then they in fact earned it. Everything is fair in war since war is a means to an end. And at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the fact who achieved their objectives.

NaPak fouj lost another golden opportunity to get even with India when they relented on the Jihad that started in 1988 in Kashmir. These things take time. The startegy was correct and should have continued. The Kargil strategy was also correct but what really matters now is the outcome. Lets accept the fact that NaPak fouj doesn't have it in them to pursue an objective until its logical conclusion. I do not understand what is keeping NaPak fouj from not gassing the Indian soldiers in Siachin who invaded and occupied no-mans land. They are absolutely fair game.
The past 5 years since ghyarween sahreef has been a golden opprtunity once again while all Western neo-colonilist have their testicles tied to the trees in Afghanistan. The puppet regime in Afghanistan would not last 20 minutes if Pakistan stops supporting it. Then why?

The answer is that NaPak fouj has turned into property dealers instaed of being soldiers. In Pujnab the word used for property dealer is "dalal". And that is what they have turned into. They have no regard for law or constitution. This mafia has become a country witin a country where they speak their own language, have cordoned off areas where they live, have their own schools and colleges, hospitals, banks, industries and what not. They are not symbiots they are parasites. They are coward and bayghairat. They are the najaiz aulaad of East India Company,and treat the rest of the "natives' as conquered people. I do not think anything less than a disbandment of this criminal organization would let us free. We have to do social boycott of military, military families and civil disobedience to the martial law. They must be made parriahs inside and outside of the country. We must taunt their children to have them suffer the inferiority complex. They must be told that they are off springs of criminals and thugs. The dismemberment of this criminal organization will be the first step towards getting even with Indians for 1971. And that shall we.

#68 I am waiting too for an answer to your question from ijazgul and Mateen.

#66 Posted by tahmed32,

tahmed32 you misread my post. I mean the period since and inclusive of Op Gibraltar.

I'm waiting for my answer.

pakwolf: i am less worried about indians nowadays - with nuclear weapons, india is no longer a threat. the threat to Pakistan is now our own military - which i hope will now realize that they have been used by musharraf to stoke his personal ambitions while destroying the judiciary and trying to enslave the Pakistani people.

#64 er..actually...Operation Gibralter wasnt much of a help either - hundreds of lives were lost on both sides due to the violence and the resulting 1965 war...and when the dust settled the LoC had not moved an inch.