An Insight Into Pakistan Army and Musharraf

"Why it was not difficult for Mujamdar dada and Ijaz to follow my comments? Only you came up with inanities. I hope you get the answer some day. though, it is perhaps too late for you to figure these things out."


Coz they don't have to pass everything through an ideological filter whereas Zeemax does. He is obviously intelligent but has a set worldview where reality must fit in.

#144 Posted by zeemax

“HP, you never cease to amaze me:”

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the problem is with you? The rogue Taliban operation started by the ISI and other Pakistan intelligence agencies way back in the 90s. Lal masjid and Swat clearly have intelligence operations written allover them. The reference to the civilian authority was not about the situation today or yesterday, it was the overall attitude of the intelligence agencies and the army itself that refuses to be supervised by the civilians and thus throws every roadblock against civilian governments and when not satisfied with the efforts, they overthrow the civilian elected governments.

I am just amazed at how ignorant you are of the contexts and measure everything based on what you read in the newspapers the night before. I am not here to educate you, but if you want to take part in the political discussions at least show some ability to follow the comments and the context.

Why it was not difficult for Mujamdar dada and Ijaz to follow my comments? Only you came up with inanities. I hope you get the answer some day. though, it is perhaps too late for you to figure these things out.

fuzair #119: "Signals. I recall the MPA beating incident he recounted earlier and the junior officers"

...yes they were from signals, under training....though i am not.....we were cadets together.....i also thought the mpa deserved it, and really felt bad that i was not with them......now, having grown older, i realize the negative affects of such actions by the army......a lack of respect for the law, starts with such incidents.....

".....there have also been quite a few extremely inteligent and capable......as captains and/or get superceded as majors/lt. cols"

yes, exactly....this is a big problem for an organization, .....if its best and brightest leave, it is even a bigger problem.....almost every single person, in my group in the navy, paf or army, whom i would consider to be bright is either out or about to get out......none were in fighting arms......not one!!

"In contrast to Romair, I would say that there have been excellent officers in the fighting arms.....Not exactly MIT but not exactly Chichawatni Degree College either...."

"have" is the key word here.....you are talking about the military of thirty years ago.....and you are over-estimating staff colleges in UK, USA....one of my friends in the air force is in uk doing exactly this.....another guy who could not get into any engineering or medical college in pakistan....degress in strategic studies etc. and a dime a dozen, and very easy......getting one from stanford isn't hard either......but getting into stanford is hard....uk, usa etc. have one seat reserved for pakistan, so one officer gets in......and then anyone can do the degree....

".....Individual officers sent to do foreign courses regularly top them/place in the top few....."

this is a myth......perhaps it was true 30 years ago......pakistan sends its top single guy to a staff course, where that country sends all its officers - average, above-average and below......the pakistani guy should, at least, do ok.......but they, rarely, if ever top...specially in places like usa, where the military training is very intellectually inclined.....i haven't met even one who has topped.....

".........most of the US officers he had met had a certain amount of professional respect for the PakArmy officers..."

...i am not doubting the fighting ability of the average major or colonel......i would certainly feel more comfortable with my friend from pma fighting on the border, than my friend from harvard.......and i would have more regard for the guy, from pma, fighting on the border than the guy from harvard, who runs a bank..

....i was only commenting on the background needed to run banks, corn flakes companies, real estate, judiciary, legislature, and the country as a whole.....that requires far far more exposure, intellect and education that what any military officer (specifically in the fighting arms) is exposed to......it is not even a point that can be debated....

....but even beyond that is the question of the complete degeneration of the institution, as a whole.....all this involvment in, "extra-curricular" civilian activities and this huge over-estimaion of its own skill-sets has greatly detoriated the military......it could have all the good men in the world.....it will not matter if the organization is degenerated......

this is what needs to changed, and critiqued and explained factually to everyone.......military does not belong to mateen or ijaz or musharraf......it belongs to the country....and people need to know the facts....

#135 Posted by HP

HP, you never cease to amaze me:

The only difference is that Indian intelligence is a little bit more respectful to the civilian authority whereas Pakistanis are not. When the oversight is diminished, we get rogue intelligence operations like Taliban, Lal Masjid or even Swat.

Which Civilian authority existed and its oversight diminished during any of the above 'intelligence operations'?

But never mind. You always chicken out when faced with your misstatements.

maj umdar.
Yea and efcouse Pakistan initially harvested them and later abandoned in favour of Gulbadin Hikmatyar midway thru the Afghan War obliging uncle Sam who wanted to create a divide, just in case of a rainy day. What a price to pay!

#139 Posted by ijaz_gul on December 5, 2007 12:35:34 am



India and northern alliance are alleged to work togather.


India, Russia, the US and Iran all backed the NA..the NA that was fighting the taliban that pureland supported. And I remember how, before 9/11, there was hardly a purelander who spoke out against the talipakis or pureland's support for them. In fact, most letters written to newspapers by purelanders were along the lines of "the world should recognize them because they are in control of afghanistan".

Ijaz,

Injuns working in tandem with the Northern Alliance is a genuine possibility. But the havayoons who are wreaking havoc in Pakistan are aligned to the Talibooon not to the Northern Alliance.

Regards

HP,
I would sum up my discussion with you by commenting that militaries always operate in the backdrop of a security perspective. For decades it was Kashmir. Now when they have cooled down this issue for sometime, security concerns that I alluded to and you agree provide sufficeint raison d'etre for doing what they do.

Yes there is a 'Catorie' as in all miltary regimes. The coup makers have since retired and the very junior ones are now at the helm. Obviously, they stick to their views.

cheerios

majumdar,
India and northern alliance are alleged to work togather. There are lots of nationalities in the tribal areas as I mentioned earlier.

HP sain,

(Indians are not innocent bystanders in the whole drama. )

Injuns may not be "innocent" as you rightly suggest but they are fools who cannot do anything correct. As far as Injun involvement is concerned, I dont rule out possibility of their involvement in B'stan but I dont see them in bed with Ghazi-Fazlu- Mehsud trio notwithstanding a prominent chowkie's protestation of a longstanding satyagrahi- Deobandi tie-up. I dont see how the Injuns cud be arming people who cud later be (if not already) killing them in Kashmir and more importantly I dont see the havayoons breaking bread with a bunch of kaffirooons.

(The only difference is that Indian intelligence is a little bit more respectful to the civilian authority whereas Pakistanis are not.)

There is no difference really. Both agencies defer to the whims and fancies of their rulers- it is just that in Pak, the rulers are the Army top brass, in India the civvies.

Regards

#25 Posted by bulleya on December 1, 2007 9:04:22 am


we gave each other the traditional pakistani bear hug....i felt something on th side of their hips


some of us have worn "hip" holsters..some of us have experiences with bear hugs too..

what i want to know is how you can feel a bulge in the hip area in a bear hug..are you sure it was a bear hug and not a fabulous bear hug(not that there's anything wrong with that).

#3 Posted by bulleya on November 30, 2007 11:03:02 am


......in capability, i would rank them far lower than the individuals i have met in pakistan from the private sector.


Seeing as how your private sector hasn't produced one company that can hold it's own outside the echo chamber of delusions that is pureland, that's saying something..



lack of world affairs


Huh? That's funny coming from someone who predicted that after 9/11, t-shirts with pakis flags would be a hit and kashmir would soon banega pureland..

#49 Posted by ijaz_gul
“Negroponte’s rush to Pakistan had little to do with democracy but more to mend fences and allay fears.”

I too had mentioned in one of post that Negroponte’s mission had nothing to do with democracy in Pakistan. He was more interested in measuring the Pak army’s situation after some harsh actions by the US defense dept. that included both military exercises and attempts to destabilize Pak army.

I am glad that you clarified that it is not your insight rather than army POV on different issues.
When I read the article it appeared to me that it is more of junior officer type thinking than the Generals thinking. Pakistani middle classes are highly politicalize-d; not in the sense that they are political but they have an opinion on every political issue. The army officers in Pakistan are no exception and often attempt to legitimize the army’s political behavior by bringing in some bizarre arguments. Some of them have appeared in your article too.
But Pakistani Generals, especially the ones who get to be Corpse commander or better have different views. These generals are what we call junta. They are not politically naïve.
Their political views are consistent with what we have been accusing them for years. So I think what you call army insight are actually views of the semi-politicalized army officers who rarely have any influence over what the Generals decide.

In other words, there are two armies in Pakistan one of the regular army officers and Jawans who have no control over Army’s political policies and then second, the army Generals or Junta who decide amongst themselves as to how to deal with the different political issues of the day. This is the group which looks to the US and keeps pressure on the politicians.

Also, I agree with some of your points about Indian involvements. Indians are not innocent bystanders in the whole drama. They play their cards as best as they can. Like Pakistan intelligence agencies, the Indian agencies are also dominated by Punjabi from the East Punjab. They play intelligence games with similar attitude and mindset. Therefore, Indian intelligence activities are as stupid as Pakistani Intelligence activities. They both draw guidance from the old British Intelligence journals and guidelines. The only difference is that Indian intelligence is a little bit more respectful to the civilian authority whereas Pakistanis are not. When the oversight is diminished, we get rouge intelligence operations like Taliban, Lal Masjid or even Swat.

Fuzair,
Welcome back after a long break.
Perhaps you are right because there was such an incident in Rawalpindi when the nustians had got togather to beat up someone.
The problem is that barring a few, most at chowk speed read and then draw lines and attempt to put each other in camps, but thats how most boards are. I wrote a preemptive view on the Cricket World cup. Ultimately I was vindicated but the interacts unfortuneately turned on to religiosity.

The purpose of the paper was and I have kept repeating it to put forth another side of the crises, and what goes through the minds of those, who are bringing lots of criticism to bear on themselves. The environment is both internationally and internally bad, and what makes them pursue a course when lessons of history forbid them.

This is a third in the series of essays, First, being the 'Law of Neccesity' which no one read, then the 'Emergency' and now this. In all the essays, I have taken the objective course and left the conclusions open ended.

As for my personal opinion, it is reflected in my posts and essays over the past many years. I feel Pakistan faces external, internal and constitutional threats. I see that the society is fragmenting and that the Civil Society is getting no support from the political parties parmi Imran Khan.

I also fully agree with HP that the belated struggle for Pakistan's independence has begun now.

As an aside, one of my daughters did her electrical engineering from NUST. It was such a bad experience that I decided to send my other kids to private universities rather than drown them in a cramming and precis culture.

It is said that military institutions always train for the war they fought last and militaries always train as they fight.

During the PAMS Seminar in Singapore, The US Army spoke very highly of Pakistani troops and professionalism in Somalia.

Bulleya or Bholeya:
Who you are telling about Army in 1971.
General Rani, Qaumi Tarana, Malka Tarrannum.
Drunkard to the point that Yahya Khan during his travel wetted his pants.
Pak Army is not sacred that you are lying balatantly.

Re: # 122 paki fool
[...move on with my life :)..]

That's my boy... good choice, just move on with your life, don't try to re-invent history... The way things are going - even the remaining pakiland may not last long... so why bother?

If it's any consolation - you aren't the first one to try this - pakis have been trying to re-invent history for a long time, with little success... :)