An Insight Into Pakistan Army and Musharraf

#96 Posted by mohar11,

I think one guy got a posthumous Nishan-e-Haider though .. after pressure from the family.

And yes the dude who did this took over the country, but it isn't over till the fat lady sings, right?

Re: # 90

Glad to see another paki see the light... doesn't happen that often, you know...

See, Mr Paki - Coffin-gate was a huge scandal back then: it was chomp change in terms of money, but the hint of dis-respect for the patriots was simply outrageous... there have been investigations, due process in law...

Now - what exactly have you done on your side for your fallen?... nothing, as far as I know... in fact, the dude who led to this disaster took over the country and you danced in the streets...

Smell the coffee already?

Re: # 88

Retailiation. Definitely. But consider this. Siachin is a no-mans land since 1948 and both shimla nd tashkent treaties ratify that. International laws do not apply in no-mans land. If Pakistan charges a chemical, bilogical or tactical nuclear attack on Indian posts in Siachin it won't be violating any international law. After this attack is done there are two possibilities through which India would react. One, it would suck up the attack because it was done on soldiers who were occupying a territory violating internationally mediated treaties in the first place or, Second it would retaliate against Pakistan miliatrily. But since any attack on Pakistan would be an attack on the sovereign land on Pakistan, the later would be justified in retaliating in kind. A pointless but short war would ensue, which would have to be stopped by international pressure. The net result of the whole exercise would be two fold:

1. Siachin will be rid of Indian presence and India would not get the same opportunity again to sneak up into this territory under cover of darkness.

2. It will re-strengthen the disputed status of Kashmir and the region.

Therefore, I think Kargil operation, though correct, was in fact was an over-kill. All Pakistani fouj had to do was to throw a biological device or even a dirty bomb over siachin to achive its objective. This brings us back to the incompetence of Pakistani fouj again.

Pakwolf's thesis does not address why we are sore victors; it simply addresses why we won. His thesis is chutoya in the sense that because Pak Army was operating in hostile territory, it was a walk in the park for the Indian Army. If that was the case, why did Pak High Command simply not withdraw all its troops from East Pakistan and deploy Niazi and his army on the western border as well? Was Niazi smoking high grade Afghan charas when he declared he would create a corridor from East Pak to West Pak? Yes, India had advantages in terms of local support, but to gain that much territory in 14 days is extremely commendable. Remeber that the UN kept asking for a ceasefire thanks to your American and Chinese patrons; and the Soviets were vetoing it but telling the Indians to hurry it up because the veto could not be indefinite. The Indian strategy of focusing only on Dhaka in a pincer movement was the correct one; the Pakistani strategy of spreading their troops out to hold territory rather than consolidate their positions in and around Dhaka to hold off a siege turned out to be the incorrect one. Hindsight is 20/20 and its easy to point out what could have been done 30 years later.

Why is our victory sore? It turned sore in Simla; when a civillian prime minister lost on the negotiating table what had been won on the battlefield. Kudos to your Bhutto for outsmarting Indira.

stuka #: "who can forget the brave and honorable Yaqub Khan"

this is what i was saying.....
"if my info is correct, the three seniro most officers of the three forces - sahibzada yaqub, air cdre masood, and a retired admiral all refused to take part in the atrocities......"

"1971 was actually the fault of the govt. leadership (which happened to be with the army and bhutto)....i am not sure it was a sign of degeneration of the military, as an institution (like it is today)...."

Not true. There are a mixed bag of people in every institution...who can forget the brave and honorable Yaqub Khan who resigned rather than kill his own people or Tikka Khan who did the opposite.

Re: # 86

Wrong, as usual, you sore loser... :)

We have been "neutral" victors... breaking up pakiland, no big deal, a walk in the park... Also - we have been very magnanimous in victory, very lenient towards you, the vanquished - so don't be that sore a loser... be grateful for the mercy... :)

Any case - if you read my posts carefully, you will realize my drift: it's not about us, it's about you... you can discount our victory to your heart's content, it doesn't matter to us - but you can NOT discount your defeat...

Which was my point to begin with - you guys are simply incapable... and if you label our victory "shear incompetence", that makes it even worse for you...right?

#87 Posted by mohar11,

Ok so we can agree on this. You overpriced the coffins but gave them a decent burial. Our napak fauj refused to recognize ours because they denied they had anything to do with the operation all along.

Deal?

"NaPak fouj lost another golden opportunity to get even with India when they relented on the Jihad that started in 1988 in Kashmir. These things take time. The startegy was correct and should have continued."

The Kasshmir Jehad was and is fought by civillian Jehadis. The Pak Army was never actively involved except during Kargil..even there it was paramilitary and not Army proper. The last time Pak Army fought was in 1971, and true to its Punjabi traditions, it did fight well in the western front..and it lost in the eastern front.

" I do not understand what is keeping NaPak fouj from not gassing the Indian soldiers in Siachin who invaded and occupied no-mans land. They are absolutely fair game.
"

Umm, the threat of retaliation, maybe?

Re: # 80 shish

Coffin-gate was an abomination... but considering what's happening even in world's "best" army in Iraq war - troops fending for armor on their own, soddy after-deployment medical care for the affected - coffin-gate seems like a small change...

Any case - people who abandon their dead and refuse to recognize their service are hardly in any position to trow stones... :)

At the end of the day - Our fallen warriors got the coffins, over-priced as they may be...

Re: # 76
'
We might be the sore losers; which loser isn't, but what is that that has turned you into a "bitter winner". That is quite abnormal, isn't it? A sore victor. Have you ever seen an olympic athlete who has just won a 100 meter dash and comes on podium to receive his gold cussing and screaming? No, never, because every winner who is sure of his victory (and have a right mind) would never ever feel even an urge to do that.

Lets admit it that in India's case it is shear incompetence and the dubious character of a non-existent victory that does not let you enjoy what every normal and fair person enjoys. Which means that Pakiwolf's thesis about 1971 war is absolutely correct. Isn't that so, you sore victor?

#80 Namaskar shisha aapa,

Yes that's true, but over invoicing coffins of the valiant soldiers who laid down their lives for their country on icy peaks is just too much.

It's not chaaval mein kala. It is entirely rotten.

What went wrong!!
-----------------

...while 1971 is famous as the pakistan military's lowest point, there are certain things people tend to ignore....

1971 was actually the fault of the govt. leadership (which happened to be with the army and bhutto)....i am not sure it was a sign of degeneration of the military, as an institution (like it is today)....

i use the criteria of standing up for what you believe in, regardless of consequence, as the barometer of the health of an institution.....if my info is correct, the three seniro most officers of the three forces - sahibzada yaqub, air cdre masood, and a retired admiral all refused to take part in the atrocities......

interstingly, the air force guy, who would have become coas, was retired, and he became a simply civilian flight instructor......

compare that time to today.....not one general or air marshall has resigned in protest to what the military is currently doing......each and every one is committing treason, while the rest of civil society is up in arms.....

now compare the perks of generals of those days to today...the head of the air force today has an executive jet (falcon) and a fokker airplane allocated to him, with a complete staff....he has a personal entrouge of 6 - 8 officers - from the equivalent rank of captain to brigadier - looking after him......including a person of lt. col. rank, specifically to look after his wife.....this is their full time job.....he has a huge house in the best part of islamabad, where he lives, and he has a house reserved for him in karachi and one in murree.......

all this for a grade 22 officer, who is far far below a judge or a minister.....even bill gates doesn't have so many people looking after him, and he has to travel the whole world (not just from pindi to karachi)

these are just the luxuries i know of......God knows what else he has......all of this is corruption, as the military budget is not approved with civilian oversight.....hence the chiefs have no checks and balance on where they are to spend money.......they just need an approval from the defence ministry, which isn't hard to do when the chief is also the president (or can carry out a coup, anytime)....

now what should one do about this.......should one criticize it and bring it out to public.....or should one remain, "loyal to jcb" and defend it......shouldn't one criticize a jcb which teaches people to support such legalized corruption......surely something is wrong in the training.....

once again, depends on where one's loyalties are.......are they to the military or to pakistan.....

Come to think of it - Kargil war gave yet another meaning to the famous statment "we will eat grass but fight hinuds for thousand years" :)

Re: # 79
[...we don't over invoice coffins for our shaheeds...]

True... you just abandon your shaheeds in the frozen peaks, with bullets in their brains and grass in their stomach...

Actually, come to think of it - you didn't even fight that war, it was just the irregulars, the jihadis and other "volunteers" who were fighting... right?