An Insight Into Pakistan Army and Musharraf

Re: # 128

Then you should know he cried (oksabokshi, for those who understand ghatispeak) after the war was over.
After that he cried last month.

#128 shankar: i am impressed by your faith in bania abilities. I understand you can levitate as well while meditating (or at least hop around like newly hatched chicken trying to learn how to fly, as i have seen some maharishis trying to do on video).

stuka: no problem sir. although i must say i pale before urstruly who no doubt can truly say "pidram sultan bood" (aba ji badshah hotay thay). :-)

Re: # 122 paki fool
[...move on with my life :)..]

That's my boy... good choice, just move on with your life, don't try to re-invent history... The way things are going - even the remaining pakiland may not last long... so why bother?

If it's any consolation - you aren't the first one to try this - pakis have been trying to re-invent history for a long time, with little success... :)

Bulleya or Bholeya:
Who you are telling about Army in 1971.
General Rani, Qaumi Tarana, Malka Tarrannum.
Drunkard to the point that Yahya Khan during his travel wetted his pants.
Pak Army is not sacred that you are lying balatantly.

Fuzair,
Welcome back after a long break.
Perhaps you are right because there was such an incident in Rawalpindi when the nustians had got togather to beat up someone.
The problem is that barring a few, most at chowk speed read and then draw lines and attempt to put each other in camps, but thats how most boards are. I wrote a preemptive view on the Cricket World cup. Ultimately I was vindicated but the interacts unfortuneately turned on to religiosity.

The purpose of the paper was and I have kept repeating it to put forth another side of the crises, and what goes through the minds of those, who are bringing lots of criticism to bear on themselves. The environment is both internationally and internally bad, and what makes them pursue a course when lessons of history forbid them.

This is a third in the series of essays, First, being the 'Law of Neccesity' which no one read, then the 'Emergency' and now this. In all the essays, I have taken the objective course and left the conclusions open ended.

As for my personal opinion, it is reflected in my posts and essays over the past many years. I feel Pakistan faces external, internal and constitutional threats. I see that the society is fragmenting and that the Civil Society is getting no support from the political parties parmi Imran Khan.

I also fully agree with HP that the belated struggle for Pakistan's independence has begun now.

As an aside, one of my daughters did her electrical engineering from NUST. It was such a bad experience that I decided to send my other kids to private universities rather than drown them in a cramming and precis culture.

It is said that military institutions always train for the war they fought last and militaries always train as they fight.

During the PAMS Seminar in Singapore, The US Army spoke very highly of Pakistani troops and professionalism in Somalia.

#49 Posted by ijaz_gul
“Negroponte’s rush to Pakistan had little to do with democracy but more to mend fences and allay fears.”

I too had mentioned in one of post that Negroponte’s mission had nothing to do with democracy in Pakistan. He was more interested in measuring the Pak army’s situation after some harsh actions by the US defense dept. that included both military exercises and attempts to destabilize Pak army.

I am glad that you clarified that it is not your insight rather than army POV on different issues.
When I read the article it appeared to me that it is more of junior officer type thinking than the Generals thinking. Pakistani middle classes are highly politicalize-d; not in the sense that they are political but they have an opinion on every political issue. The army officers in Pakistan are no exception and often attempt to legitimize the army’s political behavior by bringing in some bizarre arguments. Some of them have appeared in your article too.
But Pakistani Generals, especially the ones who get to be Corpse commander or better have different views. These generals are what we call junta. They are not politically naïve.
Their political views are consistent with what we have been accusing them for years. So I think what you call army insight are actually views of the semi-politicalized army officers who rarely have any influence over what the Generals decide.

In other words, there are two armies in Pakistan one of the regular army officers and Jawans who have no control over Army’s political policies and then second, the army Generals or Junta who decide amongst themselves as to how to deal with the different political issues of the day. This is the group which looks to the US and keeps pressure on the politicians.

Also, I agree with some of your points about Indian involvements. Indians are not innocent bystanders in the whole drama. They play their cards as best as they can. Like Pakistan intelligence agencies, the Indian agencies are also dominated by Punjabi from the East Punjab. They play intelligence games with similar attitude and mindset. Therefore, Indian intelligence activities are as stupid as Pakistani Intelligence activities. They both draw guidance from the old British Intelligence journals and guidelines. The only difference is that Indian intelligence is a little bit more respectful to the civilian authority whereas Pakistanis are not. When the oversight is diminished, we get rouge intelligence operations like Taliban, Lal Masjid or even Swat.

#3 Posted by bulleya on November 30, 2007 11:03:02 am


......in capability, i would rank them far lower than the individuals i have met in pakistan from the private sector.


Seeing as how your private sector hasn't produced one company that can hold it's own outside the echo chamber of delusions that is pureland, that's saying something..



lack of world affairs


Huh? That's funny coming from someone who predicted that after 9/11, t-shirts with pakis flags would be a hit and kashmir would soon banega pureland..

#25 Posted by bulleya on December 1, 2007 9:04:22 am


we gave each other the traditional pakistani bear hug....i felt something on th side of their hips


some of us have worn "hip" holsters..some of us have experiences with bear hugs too..

what i want to know is how you can feel a bulge in the hip area in a bear hug..are you sure it was a bear hug and not a fabulous bear hug(not that there's anything wrong with that).

HP sain,

(Indians are not innocent bystanders in the whole drama. )

Injuns may not be "innocent" as you rightly suggest but they are fools who cannot do anything correct. As far as Injun involvement is concerned, I dont rule out possibility of their involvement in B'stan but I dont see them in bed with Ghazi-Fazlu- Mehsud trio notwithstanding a prominent chowkie's protestation of a longstanding satyagrahi- Deobandi tie-up. I dont see how the Injuns cud be arming people who cud later be (if not already) killing them in Kashmir and more importantly I dont see the havayoons breaking bread with a bunch of kaffirooons.

(The only difference is that Indian intelligence is a little bit more respectful to the civilian authority whereas Pakistanis are not.)

There is no difference really. Both agencies defer to the whims and fancies of their rulers- it is just that in Pak, the rulers are the Army top brass, in India the civvies.

Regards

majumdar,
India and northern alliance are alleged to work togather. There are lots of nationalities in the tribal areas as I mentioned earlier.

HP,
I would sum up my discussion with you by commenting that militaries always operate in the backdrop of a security perspective. For decades it was Kashmir. Now when they have cooled down this issue for sometime, security concerns that I alluded to and you agree provide sufficeint raison d'etre for doing what they do.

Yes there is a 'Catorie' as in all miltary regimes. The coup makers have since retired and the very junior ones are now at the helm. Obviously, they stick to their views.

cheerios

Ijaz,

Injuns working in tandem with the Northern Alliance is a genuine possibility. But the havayoons who are wreaking havoc in Pakistan are aligned to the Talibooon not to the Northern Alliance.

Regards

#139 Posted by ijaz_gul on December 5, 2007 12:35:34 am



India and northern alliance are alleged to work togather.


India, Russia, the US and Iran all backed the NA..the NA that was fighting the taliban that pureland supported. And I remember how, before 9/11, there was hardly a purelander who spoke out against the talipakis or pureland's support for them. In fact, most letters written to newspapers by purelanders were along the lines of "the world should recognize them because they are in control of afghanistan".

maj umdar.
Yea and efcouse Pakistan initially harvested them and later abandoned in favour of Gulbadin Hikmatyar midway thru the Afghan War obliging uncle Sam who wanted to create a divide, just in case of a rainy day. What a price to pay!

#135 Posted by HP

HP, you never cease to amaze me:

The only difference is that Indian intelligence is a little bit more respectful to the civilian authority whereas Pakistanis are not. When the oversight is diminished, we get rogue intelligence operations like Taliban, Lal Masjid or even Swat.

Which Civilian authority existed and its oversight diminished during any of the above 'intelligence operations'?

But never mind. You always chicken out when faced with your misstatements.