An Insight Into Pakistan Army and Musharraf
ijaz gul November 29, 2007
#49 Posted by ijaz_gul on December 3, 2007 11:35:31 am
HP,
In my essay, I have deliberately avoided adding my own conclusions. Of all chowkies, I expected you to be the last to run down what I wrote. The teaser that I added was meant to allay just this.
Unlike a feature or investigative journalism, I despite many differing views tried my best to be Value-Neutral. I was also aware that I would draw flak but chose this method due to a situation; I shall allude to at the end of this paragraph. This essay is an explanation at best through events I laboriously pieced together. In my view it reflects the military view point. I was careful to remove as many personal comments I could except where it was considered to lead to some conclusions in parentheses. I had framed the paper with three perspectives. First the fallout of Zia’s era because that’s where the paper begins; Musharraf’s Coup-9/11 and the legitimacy-indispensability debate that has resulted in more political instability and political exclusion; and finally the threat perception. At that point I was aware that US army was carrying out war games (simulate various options) to attack Pakistan and that Pakistan Army was evaluating contingencies if that happened. So in my view, it was all the more important that readers at chowk particularly the serious minded are made aware of another angle within the present crisis, that could act like a rider clause. In fact I requested the editors to publish it immediately which they did. In my assessment, (I own this view) Negroponte’s rush to Pakistan had little to do with democracy but more to mend fences and allay fears. Read today’s Dawn and draw your own conclusions.
http://www.dawn.com/2007/12/03/top7.htm
Now the 1988-99 Events
1. Aslam Baig could have taken over, but he provided military backing and finally Benazir came to power. We could have endless debates on what happened and what could not.
2. The army when called out in Karachi by the PPP and Nawaz governments complied. As an aside, I was on a hunting trip to Toba Achakzai in 1992, when two proclaimed offenders belonging to MQM were slipped out of Pakistan by Asmat Militia of PKMAP to Afghanistan. They were Safdar Baqri and Saleem Shezad. We were stranded in Gulistan for a week where the rumour was that they were being provided sanctuaries by the Afghan government. So when someone from MQM supports BLA, my mind goes back there.
3. With squabbles not coming to an end, it was Waheed Kakar, who had forced both the President and Prime Minister to leave.
4. In Nawaz Sharif’s row with the Chief Justice and President, The Army under JK stood by the Prime Minister. According to Ch. Nisar, Corps Commander Mangla, LT Gen Musharraf fully supported the Prime Minister during one of the conferences and was therefore rewarded.
Visits to GHQ
There is something known as ‘Operational Briefings’. These are held in special briefing rooms- something like a bubble with jammers, high frequency generators etc, so that the conversations are not intercepted. They are always held in GHQ for everybody. Its too risky carrying maps and Eyes Only briefs to insecure locations proliferated with bugs and sensors.
Kayani
I may be an idealist in my thinking but cannot be wishful about an assessment. Kayani is one man, who was the DGMO, Spy Chief and now the Chief. Everything has unfolded before him. Just because USA thinks that he has their backing and that he will fight their war with renewed vigour and boot out Musharraf, they are in for a surprise and so are the many self styled reformists. The reality is that given a choice, military due to institutional choice will always tilt towards security, an economist towards economy and a doctor towards medicine.
Afghanistan
I agree with your point on Afghanistan. It may surprise many, but the contours of Pakistan’s Afghan Policy were drawn in the mid 70s by Bhutto and Naseer Ullah Babar, who was then the Inspector General of Frontier Corps in NWFP. This was done in the backdrop of growing propaganda emanating from Kabul and supported by India for Pakhtoonistan. Some Afghan Student leaders and dissidents like Hikmatyar, Ahmad Shah Masud, Rabbani and Younis Khalis were brought to Pakistan for training and unleashed on Sardar Daud’s Regime. This mass insurgency( thgat HP allused to) moderated Daud in 1977 and he was now prepared to sign the Durand Line. Unfortunately Zia’s Coup removed Bhutto and an opportunity was lost. Soon Daud too was murdered and then came the Soviet invasion. Also recall that French Book, 'Muslim Threat to Soviet Russia'
As for East Pakistan
War is an instruemnent of Policy. The level and duration of conflict are laid by political objectives and complimented in tandem with other instruements of policy. Because the military was at the helm of affairs in 1971, they should have excluded violence as an instruemnt of solution to the political crises. They did not and chose the military crackdown in March 1971 despite a very hostile international environment. I still remember what an Indian Newspaper had to say about the surrender,
"For these men, the war ended early. They fought hard at the battle of Khulna. Now they stand in the sun, having obeyed the final dreaded order of their commander, 'lay down your arms'". My brother a captain, surrendered there on 21st december was in the picture with many other soldiers.
Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began.I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?
In my essay, I have deliberately avoided adding my own conclusions. Of all chowkies, I expected you to be the last to run down what I wrote. The teaser that I added was meant to allay just this.
Unlike a feature or investigative journalism, I despite many differing views tried my best to be Value-Neutral. I was also aware that I would draw flak but chose this method due to a situation; I shall allude to at the end of this paragraph. This essay is an explanation at best through events I laboriously pieced together. In my view it reflects the military view point. I was careful to remove as many personal comments I could except where it was considered to lead to some conclusions in parentheses. I had framed the paper with three perspectives. First the fallout of Zia’s era because that’s where the paper begins; Musharraf’s Coup-9/11 and the legitimacy-indispensability debate that has resulted in more political instability and political exclusion; and finally the threat perception. At that point I was aware that US army was carrying out war games (simulate various options) to attack Pakistan and that Pakistan Army was evaluating contingencies if that happened. So in my view, it was all the more important that readers at chowk particularly the serious minded are made aware of another angle within the present crisis, that could act like a rider clause. In fact I requested the editors to publish it immediately which they did. In my assessment, (I own this view) Negroponte’s rush to Pakistan had little to do with democracy but more to mend fences and allay fears. Read today’s Dawn and draw your own conclusions.
http://www.dawn.com/2007/12/03/top7.htm
Now the 1988-99 Events
1. Aslam Baig could have taken over, but he provided military backing and finally Benazir came to power. We could have endless debates on what happened and what could not.
2. The army when called out in Karachi by the PPP and Nawaz governments complied. As an aside, I was on a hunting trip to Toba Achakzai in 1992, when two proclaimed offenders belonging to MQM were slipped out of Pakistan by Asmat Militia of PKMAP to Afghanistan. They were Safdar Baqri and Saleem Shezad. We were stranded in Gulistan for a week where the rumour was that they were being provided sanctuaries by the Afghan government. So when someone from MQM supports BLA, my mind goes back there.
3. With squabbles not coming to an end, it was Waheed Kakar, who had forced both the President and Prime Minister to leave.
4. In Nawaz Sharif’s row with the Chief Justice and President, The Army under JK stood by the Prime Minister. According to Ch. Nisar, Corps Commander Mangla, LT Gen Musharraf fully supported the Prime Minister during one of the conferences and was therefore rewarded.
Visits to GHQ
There is something known as ‘Operational Briefings’. These are held in special briefing rooms- something like a bubble with jammers, high frequency generators etc, so that the conversations are not intercepted. They are always held in GHQ for everybody. Its too risky carrying maps and Eyes Only briefs to insecure locations proliferated with bugs and sensors.
Kayani
I may be an idealist in my thinking but cannot be wishful about an assessment. Kayani is one man, who was the DGMO, Spy Chief and now the Chief. Everything has unfolded before him. Just because USA thinks that he has their backing and that he will fight their war with renewed vigour and boot out Musharraf, they are in for a surprise and so are the many self styled reformists. The reality is that given a choice, military due to institutional choice will always tilt towards security, an economist towards economy and a doctor towards medicine.
Afghanistan
I agree with your point on Afghanistan. It may surprise many, but the contours of Pakistan’s Afghan Policy were drawn in the mid 70s by Bhutto and Naseer Ullah Babar, who was then the Inspector General of Frontier Corps in NWFP. This was done in the backdrop of growing propaganda emanating from Kabul and supported by India for Pakhtoonistan. Some Afghan Student leaders and dissidents like Hikmatyar, Ahmad Shah Masud, Rabbani and Younis Khalis were brought to Pakistan for training and unleashed on Sardar Daud’s Regime. This mass insurgency( thgat HP allused to) moderated Daud in 1977 and he was now prepared to sign the Durand Line. Unfortunately Zia’s Coup removed Bhutto and an opportunity was lost. Soon Daud too was murdered and then came the Soviet invasion. Also recall that French Book, 'Muslim Threat to Soviet Russia'
As for East Pakistan
War is an instruemnent of Policy. The level and duration of conflict are laid by political objectives and complimented in tandem with other instruements of policy. Because the military was at the helm of affairs in 1971, they should have excluded violence as an instruemnt of solution to the political crises. They did not and chose the military crackdown in March 1971 despite a very hostile international environment. I still remember what an Indian Newspaper had to say about the surrender,
"For these men, the war ended early. They fought hard at the battle of Khulna. Now they stand in the sun, having obeyed the final dreaded order of their commander, 'lay down your arms'". My brother a captain, surrendered there on 21st december was in the picture with many other soldiers.
Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began.I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?
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#50 Posted by bulleya on December 3, 2007 12:23:23 pm
ijaz_gul #: "Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began.I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?"
...i was a toddler, learning to ride a tricycle.......
you are analyzing the army too much....take a look at their training and the level of individuals inducted into the army......they totally lack the ability to think beyond a certain level for solutions.....lack of exposure, education and intellect....kayani can only think so much and only has so much exposure.......
a donkey remains a donkey, even if he wears a general's ranks.......and a genius remains a genius even if he is riding on a donkey.....
you are hugely overestimating the abilities of pakistani generals.....hugely is an understatement.....
...i was a toddler, learning to ride a tricycle.......
you are analyzing the army too much....take a look at their training and the level of individuals inducted into the army......they totally lack the ability to think beyond a certain level for solutions.....lack of exposure, education and intellect....kayani can only think so much and only has so much exposure.......
a donkey remains a donkey, even if he wears a general's ranks.......and a genius remains a genius even if he is riding on a donkey.....
you are hugely overestimating the abilities of pakistani generals.....hugely is an understatement.....
#51 Posted by blithe on December 3, 2007 12:32:46 pm
# 49
You say:
"Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began., I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?"
My advice to you is to keep it dispassionate. Nationalism is the last refuge for the scoundrel (eg. Mushrraf in the garb of “Pakistan first“). Just because you stood with a machine gun in 1971, certainly does not make you a better person than Romair.
You say:
"Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began., I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?"
My advice to you is to keep it dispassionate. Nationalism is the last refuge for the scoundrel (eg. Mushrraf in the garb of “Pakistan first“). Just because you stood with a machine gun in 1971, certainly does not make you a better person than Romair.
#52 Posted by blithe on December 3, 2007 12:32:46 pm
# 49
You say:
"Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began., I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?"
My advice to you is to keep it dispassionate. Nationalism is the last refuge for the scoundrel (eg. Mushrraf in the garb of “Pakistan first“). Just because you stood with a machine gun in 1971, certainly does not make you a better person than Romair.
You say:
"Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began., I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?"
My advice to you is to keep it dispassionate. Nationalism is the last refuge for the scoundrel (eg. Mushrraf in the garb of “Pakistan first“). Just because you stood with a machine gun in 1971, certainly does not make you a better person than Romair.
#53 Posted by mohar11 on December 3, 2007 12:51:27 pm
Re: # 45 paki wolf
blah, blah, blah... you can put lipstic on your pig till the cows come home... the bottomline is - you lost half the country and surrendered meekly...
Don't be a sore loser... own up to the fact that you pakis have always been surrender monkeys... it's in your blood - you have surrendered to each two bit invaders that came over the khyber pass...
And now you are surrendering to ragtag talibans...
blah, blah, blah... you can put lipstic on your pig till the cows come home... the bottomline is - you lost half the country and surrendered meekly...
Don't be a sore loser... own up to the fact that you pakis have always been surrender monkeys... it's in your blood - you have surrendered to each two bit invaders that came over the khyber pass...
And now you are surrendering to ragtag talibans...
#54 Posted by mohar11 on December 3, 2007 1:06:55 pm
I mean - east pakiland was your own territory - you were fighting inside your own territory - it wasn't "1000 miles away"... even if it was - so what? you should have planned accordingly... put more logistics in ground from the beginning... you should have taken steps win over bong hearts and minds - that should ahve been easy, you were all moslems, weren't you?...
you knew your weaknesses... But you didn't plan... surrender monkeys never do... because, it doesn't matter - when going gets tough, they just surrender... :)
you knew your weaknesses... But you didn't plan... surrender monkeys never do... because, it doesn't matter - when going gets tough, they just surrender... :)
#55 Posted by stuka on December 3, 2007 1:40:55 pm
"ijaz_gul #: "Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began.I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?"
...i was a toddler, learning to ride a tricycle.......
HAHA. Great response...
Ijaz Gul; U are the defender of an institution that is indefensible. I am not referring to the PAF and the PN, which are by and large professional institutions. Pak Army is a mafia that has flogged the dream of Indian hegemony to rape the country of Pakistan. Why not compare salaries and benefits of the Indian and Pakistani Armies?
...i was a toddler, learning to ride a tricycle.......
HAHA. Great response...
Ijaz Gul; U are the defender of an institution that is indefensible. I am not referring to the PAF and the PN, which are by and large professional institutions. Pak Army is a mafia that has flogged the dream of Indian hegemony to rape the country of Pakistan. Why not compare salaries and benefits of the Indian and Pakistani Armies?
#56 Posted by mohar11 on December 3, 2007 2:06:05 pm
what's up with this Ijaz Gul guy? Dhimmitude on steroids?
#57 Posted by jang on December 3, 2007 2:06:50 pm
Indian Army Rank Pay Scale:
Lt. Rs. 8250-300-10050
Capt. Rs. 9600-300-11400
Major Rs. 11600-325-14850
**Major on their stagnating for one year at the maximum scale of major, are granted the pay scale of Lt. Col. As shown below along with rank pay of Major.
Lt. Col. Rs. 13500-400-17100
Col. Rs. 15100-450-17350
Brig. Rs. 16700-450-18050
Lt. Rs. 8250-300-10050
Capt. Rs. 9600-300-11400
Major Rs. 11600-325-14850
**Major on their stagnating for one year at the maximum scale of major, are granted the pay scale of Lt. Col. As shown below along with rank pay of Major.
Lt. Col. Rs. 13500-400-17100
Col. Rs. 15100-450-17350
Brig. Rs. 16700-450-18050
#58 Posted by stuka on December 3, 2007 5:31:22 pm
For a great example of Pakistan Army attitudes, please do a web search on Riaz Jafri. His pontifications are a typical example of a ruling midset to which Romair refers to.
#59 Posted by nasah on December 3, 2007 7:04:01 pm
Some of Pakistan’s most respected soldiers and generals have already published an open letter calling for Musharraf’s resignation as president. One of the authors of the letter, the former intelligence chief Lieutenant-General Talat Masood, said Musharraf was on his own.
“General Kayani will not take interference from Musharraf,” Masood said. “He will not take orders for the advancement of his personal interest; he will not prop him up. He wants the army more professionally engaged and is reluctant to be involved in politics. He wants to raise the prestige of the army in the eyes of the people.
Kayani, a chain-smoking thinker with a passion for golf, is widely regarded as more honest and less extrovert than Musharraf."(London Times)
No smoking General Kayani -- it's a health hazard -- but you can smoke out ex-general Musharraf -- that will be healthy.
“General Kayani will not take interference from Musharraf,” Masood said. “He will not take orders for the advancement of his personal interest; he will not prop him up. He wants the army more professionally engaged and is reluctant to be involved in politics. He wants to raise the prestige of the army in the eyes of the people.
Kayani, a chain-smoking thinker with a passion for golf, is widely regarded as more honest and less extrovert than Musharraf."(London Times)
No smoking General Kayani -- it's a health hazard -- but you can smoke out ex-general Musharraf -- that will be healthy.
#60 Posted by MateenMM on December 4, 2007 4:00:35 am
Let me start this interact with some kudos to Ijaz Gul for a well-structured write-up; and the very 'civil' responses to some of the 'uncivil' interacts...
Thank you #34 goldfinger: I'm sure it is water off the duck's back, as far as bulleya is concerned!
#35 bulleya [Romair?]".....i did whatever i could to try to change the system, when i was in the military....i seriously doubt i would have gone beyond the rank of major, since i had too many bad reports against me.....
....mates or no mates.....one needs to highlight facts..and trust me, the pakistan military has some very serious problems....and i am not talking about its intervention in politics....i am talking about its own internal problems of management, moral, motivation, and lack of leadership...."
You are to be commended for using the small 'i' when referring to yourself - and I'm sure we now understand the angst that burns you and the lack of esteem for an exemplary Institution, erstwhile comrades and some of those who ought to have been your mentors [who obviously became your 'tormentors' as they did not see much in you and gave you all those "bad reports" which would have prevented your promotion even to the rank of major!!]
If you left as 'captain', how can you pass judgement on all those high-sounding corporate terms about Pakistan Army's "internal problems'??!!
I will not waste more space on this two-bit discussion of your posts, bulleya [By the way, is it as in the typical rural jargon for calling-out?; or is it as in 'bulls-eye' for getting a 10 on the SA Ranges?!!]
Any society, institution, gathering, group, or assembly will always have an assortment of "the good, the bad, the ugly". Pakistan Army is no different. But, seriously, Romair is right in that the system has been skewed and, from the time of the late Gen Zia ul Haq, there has been a serious downward drift in the standards of recruitment as well as PMA training, unit spirit [the esprit-de-corps] which literally created a 'superman' out of a virtual non-entity: Ijaz Gul's observations about coming across some very good representatives of the Pakistan Armed Forces during his international workshops or seminars/training et al, are, unfortunately, exceptions as stated by bulleya.
By and large, however, I would imagine that Pakistan Army is still largely made up of better-than-average personnel: soldiers and officers. The flabulance has set in, and too much materialism, and pomp and pelf has dwindled the 'spirit' of the Army. This is a regret that is personally more painful: my association with the Institution of Pakistan Army is spread over 32 years; the best period of four years were spent in the Pakistan Military Academy as a Platoon and Company Commander. I feel 10-feet tall in recalling the establishment of the 'Junior Cadet Batallion' and all those intense training outings with my cadets'......
I still feel as proud being an ex-Pakistan Army person, as I am sure goldfinger must be. bulleya [and others], please don't be overly pious of yourselves - please don't trash us!!
Cheerios to you too, Ijaz Gul!!
Thank you #34 goldfinger: I'm sure it is water off the duck's back, as far as bulleya is concerned!
#35 bulleya [Romair?]".....i did whatever i could to try to change the system, when i was in the military....i seriously doubt i would have gone beyond the rank of major, since i had too many bad reports against me.....
....mates or no mates.....one needs to highlight facts..and trust me, the pakistan military has some very serious problems....and i am not talking about its intervention in politics....i am talking about its own internal problems of management, moral, motivation, and lack of leadership...."
You are to be commended for using the small 'i' when referring to yourself - and I'm sure we now understand the angst that burns you and the lack of esteem for an exemplary Institution, erstwhile comrades and some of those who ought to have been your mentors [who obviously became your 'tormentors' as they did not see much in you and gave you all those "bad reports" which would have prevented your promotion even to the rank of major!!]
If you left as 'captain', how can you pass judgement on all those high-sounding corporate terms about Pakistan Army's "internal problems'??!!
I will not waste more space on this two-bit discussion of your posts, bulleya [By the way, is it as in the typical rural jargon for calling-out?; or is it as in 'bulls-eye' for getting a 10 on the SA Ranges?!!]
Any society, institution, gathering, group, or assembly will always have an assortment of "the good, the bad, the ugly". Pakistan Army is no different. But, seriously, Romair is right in that the system has been skewed and, from the time of the late Gen Zia ul Haq, there has been a serious downward drift in the standards of recruitment as well as PMA training, unit spirit [the esprit-de-corps] which literally created a 'superman' out of a virtual non-entity: Ijaz Gul's observations about coming across some very good representatives of the Pakistan Armed Forces during his international workshops or seminars/training et al, are, unfortunately, exceptions as stated by bulleya.
By and large, however, I would imagine that Pakistan Army is still largely made up of better-than-average personnel: soldiers and officers. The flabulance has set in, and too much materialism, and pomp and pelf has dwindled the 'spirit' of the Army. This is a regret that is personally more painful: my association with the Institution of Pakistan Army is spread over 32 years; the best period of four years were spent in the Pakistan Military Academy as a Platoon and Company Commander. I feel 10-feet tall in recalling the establishment of the 'Junior Cadet Batallion' and all those intense training outings with my cadets'......
I still feel as proud being an ex-Pakistan Army person, as I am sure goldfinger must be. bulleya [and others], please don't be overly pious of yourselves - please don't trash us!!
Cheerios to you too, Ijaz Gul!!
#61 Posted by MateenMM on December 4, 2007 4:42:40 am
This is my post #29 in Ahmad Qureishi's "Plan to Topple Pakistan Army": it is equally applicable to the discussion thread here, and the doubting thomases':
"A lot of ridicule - some grudging acceptance - a little civility and commendation, spiced with a wee bit of doubting on Pak Army's "hidden workings"!
Seriously, haven't you chaps heard of the 'jewish conspiracy/protocols of the elders of zion' [Moscow, 1895], Why were the 2000 years of wandering suddenly turned into a neat enclave for the "12 lost tribes" and that chap Balfour planted? Why did the 'pograms' of Hitler happen?; how did the world take notice of that ridiculous Huntington's 'clash of civilisations'; or 'the end of history'; who encouraged the Armed Forces Journal to bring up 'blood borders' right in the middle of the desperation of bloodied Iraq?? - a follow-up to the set-up job with the Russians for creating 'the BLA'? And the Indians conveniently be-friending the Northern Alliance, and becoming their godfathers, with really cozy arrangements on the Afghan-Pakistan borders?? - and, finally, the 'neo-con agenda'?? The hunt for strategic oil reserves and the complicity of Bremer with Cheney to squirrel away $10 ++ billion worth of crude....it's a small notation in the US Office of GPA [General Public Accounting] document for fiscal 2004-5..
Why is it that nobody - but nobody - talks of the many 'jewish, ready-to-defrag' bombs & nukes? But, omigosh!, so much cussedness and frothing on the 'islamic bomb'??!!
Those of you who sound-off about the "b-s" and "crap" and "nonsense' and whatnot of Pakistan Army and Pervez Musharraf, do give your little grey cells a bit of fresh-air, and 'thiMk'!!
In today's DAWN, there is a big headline about BB's fear of "balkanisation" of Pakistan...after our brotherly Country, Turkey's President had a talk with her and others : on the hard facts of life in the future if allowed to happen!
Do pray to The Almighty that Created you!!
"A lot of ridicule - some grudging acceptance - a little civility and commendation, spiced with a wee bit of doubting on Pak Army's "hidden workings"!
Seriously, haven't you chaps heard of the 'jewish conspiracy/protocols of the elders of zion' [Moscow, 1895], Why were the 2000 years of wandering suddenly turned into a neat enclave for the "12 lost tribes" and that chap Balfour planted? Why did the 'pograms' of Hitler happen?; how did the world take notice of that ridiculous Huntington's 'clash of civilisations'; or 'the end of history'; who encouraged the Armed Forces Journal to bring up 'blood borders' right in the middle of the desperation of bloodied Iraq?? - a follow-up to the set-up job with the Russians for creating 'the BLA'? And the Indians conveniently be-friending the Northern Alliance, and becoming their godfathers, with really cozy arrangements on the Afghan-Pakistan borders?? - and, finally, the 'neo-con agenda'?? The hunt for strategic oil reserves and the complicity of Bremer with Cheney to squirrel away $10 ++ billion worth of crude....it's a small notation in the US Office of GPA [General Public Accounting] document for fiscal 2004-5..
Why is it that nobody - but nobody - talks of the many 'jewish, ready-to-defrag' bombs & nukes? But, omigosh!, so much cussedness and frothing on the 'islamic bomb'??!!
Those of you who sound-off about the "b-s" and "crap" and "nonsense' and whatnot of Pakistan Army and Pervez Musharraf, do give your little grey cells a bit of fresh-air, and 'thiMk'!!
In today's DAWN, there is a big headline about BB's fear of "balkanisation" of Pakistan...after our brotherly Country, Turkey's President had a talk with her and others : on the hard facts of life in the future if allowed to happen!
Do pray to The Almighty that Created you!!
#62 Posted by ijaz_gul on December 4, 2007 6:10:06 am
Mateen,
I appreciate your supportive views and welcome to chowk.
Just as you said, the good the bad the ugly all go togather. Chowk is just that. Good for one is ugly for the other.
Though Romair has been too dismissive of whatever I wrote, I wonder how as a captain in perhaps EME, he gathered such an insight about the entire working of the armed forces. Today, he brings his alma mater from JCB to aeronautical engineering to disrepute. Surely with his training and degree courses, he hardly had a chance to serve in the field army as he exited early.
Some other time I will write an essay on what ails the armed forces. For instance, officership is stratified too early, there are too many compartments in career mobilisation like the administrative,training and GS streams, and why so early in their careers, officers loose the desire to work hard. Soldiers retire too young and hardly have any opportunities other than becoming security gaurds etc. In one of my mountain expeditions, I came across a subedar with SJ, hired as a porter. Well these are points for some other time.
As a voter, I do not know whom to vote for. Already had enough of NS and BB. Where are the alternatives? Imran has not filled the void. Judiciary and lawyers are split.
We are trying to stamp a mouse while there is a tiger at our door.
Cherios
I appreciate your supportive views and welcome to chowk.
Just as you said, the good the bad the ugly all go togather. Chowk is just that. Good for one is ugly for the other.
Though Romair has been too dismissive of whatever I wrote, I wonder how as a captain in perhaps EME, he gathered such an insight about the entire working of the armed forces. Today, he brings his alma mater from JCB to aeronautical engineering to disrepute. Surely with his training and degree courses, he hardly had a chance to serve in the field army as he exited early.
Some other time I will write an essay on what ails the armed forces. For instance, officership is stratified too early, there are too many compartments in career mobilisation like the administrative,training and GS streams, and why so early in their careers, officers loose the desire to work hard. Soldiers retire too young and hardly have any opportunities other than becoming security gaurds etc. In one of my mountain expeditions, I came across a subedar with SJ, hired as a porter. Well these are points for some other time.
As a voter, I do not know whom to vote for. Already had enough of NS and BB. Where are the alternatives? Imran has not filled the void. Judiciary and lawyers are split.
We are trying to stamp a mouse while there is a tiger at our door.
Cherios
#63 Posted by viqarm on December 4, 2007 6:28:19 am
Re: # 62
"As a voter, I do not know whom to vote for. Already had enough of NS and BB. Where are the alternatives?".
Right there in your constituency. Vote for the best candidate regardles of the party he/she belongs to. The rest will take care of itself.
"As a voter, I do not know whom to vote for. Already had enough of NS and BB. Where are the alternatives?".
Right there in your constituency. Vote for the best candidate regardles of the party he/she belongs to. The rest will take care of itself.
#64 Posted by smellthecoffee on December 4, 2007 6:33:46 am
ijaz_gul / MateenMM,
... I feel 10-feet tall in recalling the establishment of the 'Junior Cadet Batallion'
... the entire working of the armed forces ... We are trying to stamp a mouse while there is a tiger at our door.
I have two questions:
Granted that the Pakistan Army is an excellent, well-trained, elite institution:
1) What has it done which has helped Pakistan since Operation Gibraltar?
2) If there is a tiger at our door (assuming there is one in the first place because having an experience of Governments, any Government, I know they don't and cannot think that far because of internal limitations), how's the Pakistani Military going to stop that Tiger given their past record in losing to armed enemies and kicking around judges?
Thanks.
... I feel 10-feet tall in recalling the establishment of the 'Junior Cadet Batallion'
... the entire working of the armed forces ... We are trying to stamp a mouse while there is a tiger at our door.
I have two questions:
Granted that the Pakistan Army is an excellent, well-trained, elite institution:
1) What has it done which has helped Pakistan since Operation Gibraltar?
2) If there is a tiger at our door (assuming there is one in the first place because having an experience of Governments, any Government, I know they don't and cannot think that far because of internal limitations), how's the Pakistani Military going to stop that Tiger given their past record in losing to armed enemies and kicking around judges?
Thanks.
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