An Insight Into Pakistan Army and Musharraf

"He refused to declare Martial Law and retained the incumbent President as the titular head of state. "

When a person takes over a country, abrogates the constitution (commits High Treason per 1973 constitution) and declares himself as the ruler just because of the 'sole' virtue of being the head of the Pakistan Criminal Army. What is it if not Martial Law?

You sound like the cousin of Saddam's information minister Baghdad Bob, I thought that job was already taken here.

Arjun over to you.

I was deeply offended by the adjectives like genral, president etc. while referring to these criminals of NaPak fouj. This is not an emotional outburst but this contention is based in constitution. The article 243-245 of the constitution of Pakistan command the estabklisment opf armed forces and governs their conduct. But just as soon as these haramis annul the constitution they nullify their own legitemacy as a national organization as well descending themsleves down to the level of a criminal mafia. As a matter of fact NaPak fouj is the biggest, deadliest, and most lawless criminal mafia in the whole wide world. It is incombunt upon each and every Pakistani not to recognize their authority and if circumstances permit civil disobedience should be in order.

...i am afraid the pakistan military is in deep decay...this article does not highlight it....perhaps because the author has not seen the inside life of the military, on a day to day basis......

......pakistan military is functioning like a military, amongst the enlisted and, perhaps, upto the officers of the ranks of captain.......after that, there are major problems....

......the two biggest problems the military is facing is that no one in the military realizes its decaying state......and even if they did realize it, they do not have the intellect, exposure or education to fix it.....

.....i have met so many generals in my life......the current lot that is running the military, were my commanders, as majors and colonels, when i joined......i know them too well.....

......in capability, i would rank them far lower than the individuals i have met in pakistan from the private sector.....specially in education, intellect and exposure....

....however, the military as an institution has been dominating the country for so long, that as an institution, it is far more organized than any other....it is thus able to get most of the nation's resources, and is able to control the executive, legislature and now the judiciary.....not to mention business.....

.....however, when a decaying organization controls so much of the state, eventually the state decays also......this is what is happening to pakistan.....

....i think a total overhaul of the military is needed......not only within the domain of society-military relations, but also within its own domain.....it is still run like the 1946 british army........

.....the qualifications of a general of 1970s will be identical to those who will become generals in 30 years...they have not evolved......

........the whole training ethos of the military has to be changed....pma has to stop giving out watered down useless b.a. degrees (which are not recognized anywhere)......paf has to stop giving out watered down b.a. degrees in geography......command officers, need to have more of an education than a fake m.a degree in strategic studies from quaid azam university (or at best one from uk or usa), as their only form of education......

.......every command officer should at the very least be forced to compete in the best instutions in pakistan - lums, giki, etc. - they should have to be forced to work with private sector organizations for a few years, where they will be exposed to the best and brightest of pakistan.....

at the moment, only the medical branch (and to some extent engineers) get such exposure........both are not in command positions.......

there are many more points........for example, the judiciary, within the military is non-existent......the jag is a figure head controlled by the coas.......which is probably why musharraf and other generals have such little respect for the chief justice......

........needless to say, the pakistan military is in a sad state......it is degenarating at a rapid pace.....its only saving grace is that its enlisted and junior officers are very patriotic and dedicated........from the rank of colonel onwards it is major incompetence, lack of world affairs and far too much interest in plots and business.......

Absolutely bogus. If Mushrraf was not responsible on Kargil, why does he not allow Nawaz's demand for a commission on it. Ijaz Gul you are pathetic!!!

Mushrraf will go down in history as the worst army chief. He will even make seem Zia's rule seem as a mere tea party.

You say:

"The Kargil Fiasco was seen as an affront to the army and strategic objectives around Siachin."

What the **** do you mean by this. Is it not more of an affront to the Pakistnai people who have been sacrificing food and education? We have an army that is more into real estate than defence. They cannot fight a war for more than 10 days. They have lost all profesionalism because the senior most generals are more into greasing their palms with corrupt deals.

....according to pakistani constitution and law, it is a black and white case, that musharraf has committed treason (twice, though the firs time with public support).....he has admitted to it....

according the same law, and a ruling by the previous supreme court, all staff officers (as well as kiyani) have committed treason.....

this is the biggest crime anyone can commit in a country.....ghaddari.....it carries a death penalty......

the fact that the author is discussing kiyani, as if he is the savior of the military, when, in fact, his treason should be discussed, shows the current condition of the pakistani military......the whole definition of right and wrong is standing on its head......

........there is a criteria i use to judge the strength of an organization......how many people in it are willing to take a stand against something they feel to be incorrect......60-70% of pakistan's judiciary has resigned.....the press and lawyers are up in arms......whole channels have been closed but they refused to bend.......some politicians are in jail......etc.

.....but how many generals, air marshalls, and admirals have resigned.....zero.....no one has shown character.....

...let me give you some information on three chiefs of staff who headed the three pakistani forces, at the same time......i won't use names other than musharraf.....

....army - musharraf committed treason, and then extended his rule way beyond even the three years given by his new supreme court

....navy - the chief committed massive corruption, retired and retired to the usa.......he was brought back and convicted.....however, during his trial, musharraf made sure he stayed in a guest house, and not in jail, where the other govt. servants (including ministers) are sent....

.....air force - the air force chief had a small piece of land in prime location in lahore (which was under paf administration) turned into plots and allocated at throw away prices, to himself and his air officers (generals).....from what i have heard, the chief sold it within days for double-digit fold profits.......

so let's keep things in perspective.....trust me, above the rank of, at best, major the miliary is totally degenerating...

just take musharraf's example, in his own profession......he has not won a single war in which he has participated or commanded......he was in 1971, lost (though he was too junior, so not his fault).......he was in decision making positions in siachen, lost........he was commanding the army in kargil....lost......he was commanding the army in waziristan.....lost.....

you are, perhaps, my favorite writer on chowk.....but you are letting patriotism get the better of you......need to wake up and smell the gunsmoke.....the patient is sick.....he needs surgery....not paracetemol....

romair, i was under the impression that with US military alliance (non-NATO member, fore front in the afgan war etc) pakistani officers got top-notch staff training in US staff colleges, top-gun academies etc. why do you say they are ill-trained?

Re: # 5

".....but how many generals, air marshalls, and admirals have resigned.....zero.....no one has shown character..... '

I think they are scared out of wits of the day of guiloutines, which is inching towards them slowly but surely. They are trained and groomed with a midset that tells them that "inn haramzadoN (civilians) ko ziada sir par nahiN charhana chahiyay". And now they are scared to death that rif raf is begining to stand up for themselves and another 1971 like surrender is written on the wall. This time there won't be a "Nia Pakistan". This time there will be guilotines and firing squads. I don't think these coward fukks have it in them for a masada stand off. Probably, they are seeking dual natinalities with Canada or Britton etc. I've heard that in Toronto these assholes, i.e. retired officers of NaPak fouj have even established a union or organization of some sort and someone was telling me that each and every member is a multimillionair.

jang #: ....pakistan military is divided into three sections, like all militaries - army, air force, navy.......

.....these are, further, divided into two major sections...each branch has a command line (pilots, infantry, armour, submariners etc., i.e. those who fight), and a supporting line (engineers, doctors, telecom etc.)....

.....the second group in the the military are quite well-trained....they compete internationally...five of my batchmates who are engineers have ph.ds. from the usa.....one of my closest friends in the army is one of pakistan's very good young heart specialists.....etc.

...however, the command branch officers get very little training outside of what was established 50 years ago......in fact, the training sytem has not evolved since the 60s.....same pma, and other academies....same staff college etc.....

the non-nato status etc. gives them access to a few months courses in small insignificant areas in usa etc....the odd one gets to attend a military academy abroad (but even those aren't known for intellectual activities)..

......however, none of them go to professional schools for mba's etc.......while the us military sends all its command officers to top notch civilian schools......

....other than courses in infantry, armour, flying, and one staff college (which even those who flunked high school with me, have passed), they get very little education......and hardly any exposure.....

compare this to people in pakistan's private sector, who have harvard mbas, have worked in usa, europe, middle east etc., with the best and brightest and you can easily see the difference.......

in fact, in command branches, education is considered a negative.....in addition, those joining the military in these branches are amongst the worse high school students.....not a single one of my batchmates in the command branches could have gotten into any engineering univ or medical college in pakistan.....

...all of the above combined creates a very very mediocre general staff.......hardly any of whom could have gotten into civil services, IT, telecom, banks etc. in a professional capacity.......some of my colleagues, who may become generals had trouble clearing high-school.....

one could argue that they are soldiers, and just need to fight....that is true, and they are quite good at that.....however, the fighting stops after the rank of colonel.....then intelligence, exposure, intellect, creativity, managerial skills, etc. become important.....this is what they lack.....

perhaps indian military has the same limitations, as do many third world militaries.....however, in such situations, the military should be under strong civilian oversight, of individuals who have exposure, and education.....

.......in pakistan's case, it is the opposite...the miltiary has oversight and control over those who have education and exposure.....so the corps commander who barely got through b.a. and is trained to command tanks, is also the chairman of board of a large bank, under whom sit harvard degree holders........another is the head of the largest real-estate corporation in pakistan......another is a dean of a univeristy, which he himself could never have qualified for as a student!!.....

jang #:...i had known, what i mentioned below, for a long time......however, i always felt that it was incompetence and not character degeneration......

however, over the past two years, as i have gotten re-introduced to them, i have realized that in term of character and social structure, the military has degenerated.....this has happened over the past ten years, and wasn't there during my time (other than at the very very high ranks)......

as an institution, the military is degenerating (kind of like the police, etc.)......while as an institution the judicary (and legal profession as a whole) and media is strengthening are re-generating.....

General Bulleya sir,mind naa karein but why are you such a shoda ? You remind me of one of those guys who wear bellbottoms and do wheelies on their CD-70's on the footpaths of commercial market pindi.

#7


If the army officers were so well educated, why would they enter into the civil bureaucracy by the back door? Why do they not sit for the CSS exam?
Under Mushrraf we have had a stream of incompetent army goofs, half baked dimwits entering into not only the civil services but also academia...

If the army officers were up to snuff, why do they not apply for a job like the rest of the civilians? Why do they have to create a conglomerate to subsidize the post army careers. they have created an entire cantonment economy because they know that with they are duffers and they cannot get into the private sector on their own steam, apart from jobs such as outsourced credit card collections in banks (where they use strong arm tactics on credit card delinquents). They use ex army for these jobs beacuse they have no regard for the rule of law .

i doubt that ex-army folks are incopetant..its just that they take the easy way ..its natural for anyone to do so when the setup permits. noone will compete unnecessarily.

Re: # 12 Well said!!

Roamir,

for a long time yoy were the greatest defender of teh purity of the pak army, and sad to note that since you left teh army, the standards have declined and you are admitting that.

Take it from me Romair, the entire pak society is on the decline, the politicians are correupt and the latest see teh crime reports, it is the security guards that are carrying out bank roberies.

The law and order system has collapsed...and now in pakistan each for his/her own.. the society is imploding.

"A police official told Dawn that arms had been seized from the home of the driver, Umer Khan, which he had allegedly taken from the militants. During clashes, he had transported the militants in his ambulance to a safe location.

Nineteen policemen have been dismissed from service by district police officer Waqif Khan on the charge of supporting Fazlullah."

from dawn of today

Romair,

The police supporting teh tribals, the ambulance driver helping the militants
well this is not degradation, this is implosion.

Romair,
The subject is "INSIGHT". It means how the military thinks. My own views are expressed as causative. Rather than just letting the flak go, it would be more fruitful to evaluate some of the perceptions as RIGHT, WRONG or EXAGGERATED.

Romair, you may have served in some technical arm and benefitted from the same criteria you now criticise, but you must also have the patience to listen to others rather than undermine.

As for my knowledge of armed forces.
Three generations have served in the armed forces. As an academician, I have lectured senior officers attending Graduate and Post Graduate Courses in public sector universities in competition with civilians including civil servants. I tell you, they competed and were never as dull as you think.

I covered a Pacific Armies Military Seminar (PAMS) in Singapore in 1999 attended by over 33 countries including Pakistan and India. Let me tell you that Pakistani officers were the most logical and articulate speakers to the extent that they were singled out for citation by the US Army Joint Chief in the closing ceremony. One of them (Brigadier)in now a Corps Commander and the other was a Christian Colonel.

I have also covered some international disarmanent talks on chemical weapons, CTBT and NPT. Invariably, Pakistani delegation also comprised serving officers from the Air Force and Army. One was an infantry officer while the other a fighter pilot. Believe me, they were real good even in face of such disarmament experts as Condi etc.
I have also lectured similar audience abroad including military officers from USA, Britain, Germany, France,Japan,Bangladesh, Australia and New Zealand.
I hope this is sufficient as far as my military knowledge goes.
Cheerios

Re: # 16

"The police supporting teh tribals, the ambulance driver helping the militants
well this is not degradation, this is implosion."

Jay ji,

That was a clear statement of current implosion

ijaz_gul #17: " hope this is sufficient as far as my military knowledge goes."

..i am afraid it isn't....your exposure is still from the outside.....it's kind of like someone from the usa, meeting pakistani politicians in seminars, every now and then.....if the only politicians he meets are aitezaz ahsan and imran khan, he might have a very high opinion of the sophistication of the politicians......

....in your case, you are meeting the few best and brightest, and that too in a closed session........you are not getting exposure to the complete organization and its social structure.....

......there are engineers in the pakistan military, who have scored the top positions in the best american universities; doctors who have done the same in uk.....

barring the doctors, all fighting arms, technical arms etc. get trained together, in one group as cadets....so we all know (knew) each others competence, in all three branches...

......i follow up with my friends in the military and in the civilian and private sectors regularly....i know them like i know my siblings....it is very easy to see the difference in calibre, education and exposure...

an analysis of the military needs to start at the following level:

1. calibre of individuals joining the military as cadets
2. calibre of training provided to those individuals during their early career
3. calibre of training provided to them during the rest of the careers
4. exposure to the civil and private sector
5. exposure to the rest of the world
6. competitiveness of the environment they operate in
7. incorporation of technology as a management and organizational tool
8. state of the military legal system
9. morale of employees
10. evolution of organization over the past 50 years to keep up with int'l standards
11. excess management layers
etc.

if you do an analysis over the above points, you will easily see that the military is stuck where it was in the 60s, while the rest of pakistan's professional sector has kept up with the rest of the world....this is because their is no civilian oversight over the military and it does not operate in a cut throat environment......

i will give you detailed examples of all of this, later.....however, rest assured, pakistan military is a national institution.....when national institution's start degenerating heavily, the most patriotic thing to do is to demand accountability and restructuring......pakistan military needs massive restructuring, to bring it in pace with where it should be......

Romair,
ijaz_gul@yahoo.com
facebook: ijaz.gul@gmail.com
myspace: ijaz_gul@yahoo.com
Lets learn more from you. I will wait.
Cheerios

If as the author says this article merely describes how the Army thinks of itself, and its perception of Pakistan and its politics, and not what it actually is or Pakistan is, he is right.

"This charade of political legitimacy with a mindset of 1935 began with an ill advised referendum. "

"The mind set of 1935 will try to prevail once again."


What is this "mindset of 1935" which you mention twice?

Sadna,
You got to read my essay on Emergency already on the left banner on FP.

One of the premise is that natives are not capable of exercising fully grown democracy. Therefore they must be guided by the representatives of the Viceroy.

Cheerios

#23 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Thanks for clarifying the premise.

Beena Sarwar's article at the top places a better perspective in whether the natives are capable of exercising democracy or not.

You bloody civilian!!
----------------------

....the worse insult that could be thrown at any of us, when we were cadets, was not to be called a piece of sh//t, fuc//ing cho//tya, etc.....this was the run of the mill abuse.....the ultimate insult was to be called a civilian.....when someone called you that, it was worse than being called a be//ncho//d or anything similar...

....this is the environment which first met us, when we started our careers....a civilian was the lowest of the low...and we were far superior.....it didn't make any difference that hardly any of us could have competed in the civil circuit in any profession......

.....by the time we graduated, we knew nothing of the civilian world......what to talk of new york or london, we didn't even know lahore or karachi....the most competent person in the world was a general, and the most useless a civilian - specifically politicians....and we were the saviors....

......within the first year of our commission, a few of our collegues in the army had an interesting incident......one of their majors, apparently, got in a accident with a sitting mpa....and was beaten up.....a whole group of my army batchmates decided it was time to take action......these guys were lieutants, barely in their early twenties......they blocked gt road (main highway between peshawar and pindi)......went to the mpa's house and beat him black and blue till he fainted...then they exited on their motorcycles on the empty GT road.....nothing was done to them and they are now majors and colonels.....

.....another one of my friend's sisters were shopping in jinnah market when some civilians were rude to them.....they came and complained....two of my friends - both captains - went and confronted this large group of civilians....quite a brave action....pretty soon, a whole group of army officers who were in the market joined up with them......once again the civilians took a beating....to put some icing on the cake, one of the officers picked up the main civilian leader and locked him in his unit's jail......

.......another military friend once told me an interesting story.....he was interested in a girl....he realized some other civilian guy was interested in her and was following her.....he had him picked up also, for a day.....

.......two years ago, i was sitting with another friend in the army....the discussion, somehow, came to akbar bugti.....he said, we have to kill him.....he has started a state within a state.....it would be one thing if this guy was a general......but he was a major.....if even majors think like this, what must generals be thinking....

there was another trend developing in my days....i went to a wedding and was received by two more military colleagues....we gave each other the traditional pakistani bear hug....i felt something on th side of their hips....it turned out both of them were wearing pistols.....for no rhyme or reason, they felt they could do so......

a lawyer friend of mine was fighting a case in an air force court.....he won the case....it went to the coas.....he ordered a retrial.....he won again.....coas ordered another retrial.....on the third trial, he lost.....so much for respect for th judiciary.....

...strangely, i used to look at all this, and while i realized that beating up civilians was illegal, in all these cases, i felt they deserved it.....

.......this is the atmosphere, through which the average pakistani officer earns his wings and his definition of right and wrong......this is specifically true for those in the army...

...so if people want to understand why musharraf beats up on civilians and thinks it is ok, or has zero regard for the judiciary, or thinks the word, "civilian" is a four letter word, to the point of always emphasizing he is a soldier and not a civilian, even when he was occupying the highest office in the land (presidency), they need to look at his upbringing and the upbringing of every other pakistani officer.....

when you are taught, as a leiutenant, that being called a civilian is worse than being called a mother-fu//er, and that you can go and beat up on civilians - literally physically - anytime you want and everyone up til the corps commanders will support you and that the army judges are useless non-career officers, then by the time you become a general, you are so brainwashed that you won't even realize what is treason and what is not......

kayani and musharraf have committed treason - open and shut case.......what is sad is that musharraf has openly admitted that he has done so, and still sees nothing wrong with it......it is all a result of what he was taught in his formative military years about civilians......

Ditto with the Indian army, youngsters mostly young lieutnants and captains have beaten up the policemen right in the thanas when a brother officer has been manhandled by the police or the modesty of a brother officer's wife has been attacked by the policemen. Mind you, the army only has fisticuffs with the local police who are otherwise bullys and corrupt ones at that. The civilians have hugely relished this treatment meted out by the army probably because they themselves could never dream of doing it to the policemen. Of course, the local garrison commander has a lot of explaining to do to higher-ups for this esprit-de-corps displayed by the young officers, but such episodes keep the civilian police in military garrison towns on their toes and best behaviour (at least as far the army personnel are concerned). "Bloody civilian" is very much a takia kalam in the army, but no army attacks on civilians have been heard of.

muqaddam #: "The civilians have hugely relished this treatment meted out by the army probably because they themselves could never dream of doing it to the policemen"

perhaps a hangover from british rule, but quite interesting to see the same happens in india......this is qutie common in pakistan also...in fact, much of the violence in pakistan is from the army (not air force or navy), and much of that is towards the police.....i always felt the civilians loved it, when the police got beat up by the army captains and lieutenants....

police is a totally degenerated institution in pakistan.....the military, up til twenty to thirty years ago, wasn't......now it is well on its way to being like the police.......

ijaz_gul#23
Thanks.

One should always consider all problems indians are making from 1947.They are arming defunct baloach Lib.. gunda gardi and are playing $30,000 cash for blowing gas pipeline, railway or electric pylon even general president as top civil and military person. Indians taking advantage to damage national assets at low price and these terrorists are doing all time. Money speaks louder on an average one pipeline, or railway or power tower is blown. Indian embassy Afghanistan officials are always carrying dollars in briefcases and financing terrorist. Why they should have so many embassies there is question, and goddy goody with Tajik leaders and friends with cruel Abdul Rashid Dostam ( recent india's helping him) and embassy in Mazar sharrif is really spy center. Any way we are pakistan embassy people are too straigh forward and looking for peace, this uprightness is not good as straight trees are cut first. Its time to close Indian emmbassy in pakistan and afghanistan , with ultimumm to Usa and puppet karzai brother close it or that 500000 gallans of oil stops following to allied forces.
They are tricky people as Kissinger said. I find some troubling problems with our aces in cricket getting sick at match at culcutta. They should cook their food and not eat from hotel. Slow mild poison was eaten by many players so shoeb Akhar is sick he can not bowl as no strength and Indians make 600, when when our tank tank commander Shoeb Akhar is woth ammunition, finest tank but engine is not roaring as his tank is fed poisoned gas. Time to not play with India , in India at home is ok , as they can not put poison in food of our players.WE should not play in India at places like culcutta and Bombay due to bad water and air.
Good day.

"kayani and musharraf have committed treason - open and shut case......."

I can see the logic in Musharraf's case, but how can you accuse Kyani? Is there any military rule that will allow an officer to disobey his superior (the COAS at that)?

Gul Sahib:
The case that you and Ahmed Qureshi make, do you have any solid proof of this? I mean other than speculation, even if quite plausible?

I'll admit that I can't say that what you are stating is definitely not true. However, the aspirations of the civil society have been building up for quite some time. Certainly you cannot expect such a groundswell of public opinion to be set aside, voluntarily, in one swoop because an argument, without clear proof, is made that the very existence of Pakistan is at stake.

Do the Pakistanis on Chowk deserve half a chance that will allow them to honestly consider the case that you have put forth?

The references that you cite may indicate the wishes of some think tanks. They do not prove that there is, in fact, a plan afoot to dismember Pakistan.

Viqran,
See my post at #17.
I hope this is enough.
Just google Brookings, Stimston,Rand, US War College and Janes to get a few inputs.
Intelligence collects information from diverse sources and then filters it up. These filtered conclusins are then matched with the inputs from various embassies, foreign office and other sources. Its only when the information is sufficiently presumed to be correct, that military hypotheses are framed.
Ahmed Qureshi's article reads like a conspiracy theory. Something like Sidney Sheldon.
As for me, I have researched. I do at some level share these perceptions. The levels vary between most likely to most dangerous.
Cheerios

Gul Sahib,

From what I have read on CHOWK recently ranging

from the profound to the nonsensical, all I can add is that

at least you do your research!

I do not agree with some of your conclusions but they

do reflect a serious professional effort.


Ras

Re: # 27 bulleya, thanks for the great insight into the escapades of the motley crew of which, according to you, you too were once a member! How proud your former mates must be of you by speaking so highly of them here on public forum! Sounds almost like the debriefing of a double agent from a James Bond thriller ;) I have heard even legionaires flock to the rescue of mates in distress when they hear the cry of "Au Legion!"

goldfinger #:....i don't think any of them are in distress....nor are they distressing anyone at the moment.....however, those senior to them are distressing the whole country.......

......the biggest form of patriotism is to point out the wrong in natinoal institutions....and to try to do something to change it........i did whatever i could to try to change the system, when i was in the military....i seriously doubt i would have gone beyond the rank of major, since i had too many bad reports against me.....

......mates or no mates.......one needs to highlight facts.....and trust me, the pakistan miliary has some very serious problems......and i am not talking about its intervention in politics....i am talking about its own internal problems of management, moral, motivation, and lack of leadership....

.....a pakistani soldier has never been known to surrender......the enlisted are as brave as they come.....they have had to stand up to india - which is 8 times their size.......

however, when an enlisted man voluntarily surrenders, there is something to worry about.......when the air force refuses to participate in kargil, and the army goes ahead there is something to worry about.....when an military is bombing its own people there is something to worry about....if the people are to be bombed, there are problems, and if they aren't, there are bigger problems....if a general can lose a war and not be fired, but becomes the president, there is something wrong......when the supreme court of the country gives a ruling against a govt., and not a single general resigns, while the judiciary and press does, there is something wrong......

the pakistan military needs surgery......

Re: # 35

romair,

just listen to yourself ! " did whatever i could to try to change the system, when i was in the military....i seriously doubt i would have gone beyond the rank of major, since i had too many bad reports against me...."

....... a frigging captian (or was it airman?) trying to change the military! ...... give us all a break - you are so full of shit you make masadi look almost sane ........ i am seriously beginnig to doubt you were ever in the military ........

For a 600,000 strong professional army -- that used to be fit as a fiddle -- Musharraf was the most unprofessional unhealthy COAS.

An inept incompetent, medicore strategist -- who acted more like a bipolar Islamabad warlord treating the army as his personal militia -- Musharraf wasted his army jawan's lives in thousands from Kargil to Waziristan -- drained its morale down the gutter -- all because of his pathological addiction to the contraband civilian power politics.

And the Joker is still sitting in the Aiwan-e Sadre now in a stupid civilian shirwani cutting a pathetic figure -- still looking hungry after 8 year of unbridiled unshared, unashmed, raw power that has not whetted his voracious apetie for public 'langar' for yet another 5 years.

Some body should examine his head.

Sorry -- somebody should examine his stomach as well.

“Pakistan Army made concerted efforts to stay way from political interventions from 1988-1999.”
“However, the Army Chiefs continued to be dragged into political squabbles one way or another.”

By your standards, Ijaz this article is pretty flaky. The insight is really a narration of some known non facts about the army. In fact the more I look at it; it appears to me that you are putting forward an apology that is not very popular in the democratic circles in Pakistan. I for one always considered you a part of the democracy sympathizer’s block but this article squarely puts you on the opposite side.

While both above statements are fallacious, your conclusion that “Knowing Kayani, he will do what he does best; listen and think” is equally outrageous.

Pakistan army never made any effort to stay away from the political interventions. The reality is that it has looked for every occasion to find an excuse to intervene in the political affairs. The most dreaded call for every civilian PM in Pakistan was always the call from the COAS office. The COAS made the PMs visit their offices instead of going over to see the PM. They would send low ranking generals to communicate with the PM. If you know little bit about the Major Imtiaz affair, you would also know that a low ranking officer who was not even a general, was able to embarrass the PM of Pakistan with tacit approval from the Generals.

Nawaz Sharif dismissed Jahengr Karamat for a cause and he had a legit right to dismiss Musharraf. The fact that the army decided to overthrow him instead of following the orders from the civilian leadership shows that they were not making “concerted efforts to stay away from political interventions”.

I really should pick this whole article apart but I think I should first ask you to redeem yourself and show us what made you write this factually incorrect article with blatant fallaciousness I have pointed out above.

Like Ijaz, many have written about the Pakistani intervention in Afghanistan thru it surrogate armies of Mujahideen. Surprising, not very many had tried to ascertain as to why the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan. Generally people appear to accept the standard Soviet line that the Soviet Union interfered because first, the Afghan govt asked for military help and second, the Soviet Union was bound by its solidarity with the communists in Afghanistan and interference was to help the red revolution in Afghanistan.

Rarely do we see political analyst mention that the Soviet action was in effect preemptive rather than a response. The Islamic mujahideen unleashed by Pakistan had become a threat to the Soviet Union because the Soviet Union had roughly 20% Muslim population close to the afghan borders and with enormous cultural and geographical closeness, the Soviets were fearful that the radical Islamic warrior helped by Pakistan and the US would attempt to instigate the Muslims living within the soviet union. Later events proved that that the Soviet fears were not entirely speculative in nature. The afghan war was just an extension of the cold war and Pakistan played the role it was assigned to when it joined in the cold war on the US side.

We need to look at both Pakistani and the Soviet interventions in Afghanistan in the broader context of the cold war.

Recently, A magazine gathered the similarities between the both Soviets and the US arguments for their respective intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq. Here are a few snippets.

“Once the “terrorists” had been defeated, Afghanistan would be left to become “a stable, friendly country”. The invasion, then, was in the best interests of the Afghan people - the focus of the Soviet government’s benevolent concern.”

An eerie similarity to some statements we hear about the Iraq war.

“Before the arrival of the Soviet soldiers here, [the area] was literally swarming with [insurgents]... [who] were ruthlessly killing... everyone, who was desperately longing for a new life... However, Soviet soldiers arrived, and life in the district has started normalising." (Krasnaya Zvezda, October 27, 1985)”

On the April 12, 2005 edition of the BBC's Newsnight programme, diplomatic editor Mark Urban discussed the significance of a lessening of Iraqi attacks on US forces since January:
“It is indeed the first real evidence that President Bush's grand design of toppling a dictator and forcing a democracy into the heart of the Middle East could work.” (Urban, Newsnight, BBC2, April 12, 2005)

When George Bush declared: "we are not conquerors; we're liberators”, he could have been quoting one of the top Soviet generals in Afghanistan, who said:
“We didn't set ourselves the task of conquering anyone: we wanted to stabilise the situation.” (Varennikov, CNN Interview, 1998)

Even in reporting that a large proportion of world opinion wants to see the US leave Iraq, the BBC managed to boost the claimed humanitarian intent:
“Some 39% of people in 22 countries said troops should leave now, and 28% backed a gradual pull-out. Just 23% wanted them to stay until Iraq was safe.” (Most people 'want Iraq pull-out,' http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/ hi/middle_east/6981553.stm, September 7, 2007)

The idea that Iraq might not be safe until US-UK troops leave, is unthinkable to many Western journalists, as it was to Soviet journalists.

In some cases, Western reporting perhaps even surpassed Soviet propaganda. As US tanks entered Baghdad on April 9, 2003, ITN's John Irvine declared:
"A war of three weeks has brought an end to decades of Iraqi misery." (ITN Evening News, April 9, 2003)

In 1988, Izvestiya quoted general Boris Gromov, the commander of Soviet troops in Afghanistan:
"We came to Afghanistan at the end of 1979 at the request of the lawful government [of Afghanistan] and in accordance with the agreement between our countries based on the... Charter of the United Nations." (Izvestiya, July 2, 1988)\

We asked Hugh Sykes, a BBC journalist reporting from Baghdad, for his opinion on the issue of legality in relation to the invasion of Iraq. Sykes replied:
“The Americans et al always say they are here 'at the invitation of the democratically elected Iraqi government'.

Hehehehe!
The world we live in!

HP sain,

Re #41

Basically, USSR invaded Afghanistan to ward off disintegration due to possible instigation of Muslim disaffection of population in CAR. And yet in the end, the invasion actually ended up expediting the demise of USSR.

The Law of Unintended Consequences at work!!!

Regards

#42 Posted by majumdar
Dada,
The one thing you forget to mention that while the Soviet intervention led to its own disintegration, the other interventionist in Afghanistan, Pakistan too is fighting to keep its geographical integrity.

romair
[a pakistani soldier has never been known to surrender...]

Ha ha ... 90,000 paki soldiers surrendered half the country, withing a few days of fight... surrendering comes natural to you pakis....:)

Re: # 44

Reply to #44

Mohar, if you have had a chance to study the 1971 geo-political situation you will not be making a statement based on sheer jingoistic perception. India was able to win on the former East Pakistan front not because Sam Manekshaw was a formidable commander like "Rommel" or the Indian army an expert in "Blitzkrieg" but because they were attacking a distant province of Pakistan whose ethnic Bengali population no longer wanted to live under West Pakistani rule they wanted their own home land.

Therefore it would be stupid to think that East Pakistan would have become a “Stalingrad” standing against the Indian guile. Indians trained the Mukhti Bahini rebels, these guys knew there terrain well spoke the native language there commanders were ex-east Bengal regiment soldiers and officers in addition to ex-policeman and Para-military of Bengali ancestry. They were adequately armed by Indians and helped by the local population to infiltrate and conduct gorilla operations deep inside Pakistani territory to demoralize the army through the war of a thousand cuts.

In this case India violated the international border because it suited its national defense policy but in reference to Kargil this off course was labeled as violation of international border by Pakistan army, how Indians change their view point when it suits there national interests. The war of attrition had already started in East Pakistan couple of years before the final conflict in 1971.

The Pakistani army knew the hopeless situation of fighting for a distant province whose Bengali inhabitants were there biggest enemy. It was a lost cause with no support from local population. India had banned Pakistani airlifts over there airspace this made lifting of heavy equipment such as artillery, tanks etc via Sri-lanka cumber some so on paper Pakistani formations had armor and artillery but in reality they were left behind in West Pakistan and soldiers were airlifted with light equipment that could not with stand a full frontal assault from a fully equipped Indian force and there well trained “Mukti Bahini” comrades.

The ultimate surrender was not due to the fine maneuvering or bravery of the Indian army but due to the intelligence that helped them get pass strong Pakistani defenses using back roads. Indians knew what they were up against which Pakistani unit was located where the Local Bengali scouts made sure of that. They idea was to get to Dhaka without fighting pitched battles with ground forces as the Pakistani defense doctrine was “fortress” style which also flawed to begin with. The lone airbase was out of commission in four days with 14 sabers against three operational Indian air force bases.

The Pakistani doctrine was that defense of East Pakistani lies in West Pakistan which antagonized the east Pakistanis and made them believe they were a colony run by West Pakistanis to extract there economic surplus into west Pakistani development projects. Here is an excerpt from Pakistan air force history of the lone number 14th squadron in 1971 eastern theatre:

“This lone squadron had to face no less than 10 squadrons of the Indian Air Force (IAF) simultaneously, comprising MiG-21s Gnats and Hunters. The grim but resolute and heroic resistance of No. 14 Squadron will go down in air combat history as a glorious chapter of a valiant and determined fight against a vastly superior enemy. It was a no win situation front the outset, but the squadron Put up a fierce fight and continued it against heavy odds. The young and gallant pilots of PAF, with only 1011-150 operational hours to their credit, were invariably pitted against eight to ten enemy aircraft at a time.”

Even under such adverse circumstances PAF shot down five Indian aircrafts in air combat during the three days that runaway was operational. The air defense battery was operational till the last day of war had accounted for six aircrafts these confirmed kills accepted by IAF records also.

To give an account of hostility of local population two Pakistani pilots who bailed out in East Pakistan territory were unable to be rescued by PAF because as soon as they landed on ground they were tortured and killed by “MUkhti Bahini”. The East Pakistan soil was just as hostile to Pakistani forces as it would have been on Indian soil. To fight for it was stupid to begin with but lot of good men did fight and die for it but the final surrender under the circumstances was the a smart decision not due to Indian gallantry but due the political ground reality.

The actual soldiers that surrendered were around 45,000 or so rest were west Pakistani civilians which were claimed to be solders by Indians. I think it would have been a military blunder to let Pakistani soldiers fight and die for a lost cause so the aftermath was a smart one it preserved lives without having aqeuate airlift capability.

Let the Indians be happy that they won because they fought a hard battle. A historical analysis of that time period points otherwise. The ground reality was that Indians were not fighting a neighbor twice the size in a distant province from the main land. It’s almost as if expecting Portugal to come fight a full battle in Goa to protect a distant island from Indian invasion without support from the native population. It was not worth the price but if Indians want to see that as “Bravery” then they need to re-evaluate what the term means.

Lord Mountbatten at the time of independence had predicted that the entity of East Pakistan will cease to exist as part of West Pakistan due to the sheer ill-logical geographical distant between the two parts so India need not give themselves the medal of honor.

The real battle of hearts and mind was fought and lost in the government circles of Islamabad after the 1970 elections and the final fate was sealed by Bhutto to keep power sharing away from MUJIB rest is just the logical course of events that India likes to take more credit than they actually deserve.

Therefore, Mohar get your facts straight and dont be an idiot and come back with a lame reply. Next time think before you write.

Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw, former Army chief told Karan Thapar in ``face-to-face'' programme on BBC Asked about setbacks during the 1971 war:

On the fifth day of the conflict he told Ms Gandhi that ``everything had gone wrong. The navy lost the khukri. The air force lost a lot of aircraft on the ground. My advances in Bangladesh were halted''. She looked at me and smiled and said you can't win everyday, Sam. And then she turned around and said anyway we will not tell anybody ... Let everybody know that nothing has happened''. Asked to what extent did he win in Bangladesh, Manekshaw said:``Pakistan army in East Pakistan fought very gallantly. But they had no chance. They were a 1,000 miles away from their base. And I had eight or nine months to make my preparations. I had a superiority of almost 50 to one...''. He said it was true that he had written a personal letter to Pakistani captain S.R. Malik for defending his garrison in Kamalpur in Bangladesh ``stoutly'' despite ``hard'' Indian attempts to capture it. ``We did not succeed until about the third attempt....'' The former chief said he had even recommended Captain Malik's name for a gallantry award to the Pakistani army chief.

Re #45
Excellent! One of the most balanced and readable posts on Chowk. Puts across the Pakistani viewpoint succinctly and lucidly.

yar romair, what if general musharaff had gotten great gains in kashmir, managed to have negotiated a nice truce in waziristan and gotten a frindly sarkar in afganistan in addition to all the moolah and economic boost and private TV channels? i think his illegitimate actions would not be questioned.

in 1971 one reasons pakistani army "surrendered" was to prevent getting the afsars slaughtered by bangalis. it was a friendly surrender, not hostile.

HP,
In my essay, I have deliberately avoided adding my own conclusions. Of all chowkies, I expected you to be the last to run down what I wrote. The teaser that I added was meant to allay just this.

Unlike a feature or investigative journalism, I despite many differing views tried my best to be Value-Neutral. I was also aware that I would draw flak but chose this method due to a situation; I shall allude to at the end of this paragraph. This essay is an explanation at best through events I laboriously pieced together. In my view it reflects the military view point. I was careful to remove as many personal comments I could except where it was considered to lead to some conclusions in parentheses. I had framed the paper with three perspectives. First the fallout of Zia’s era because that’s where the paper begins; Musharraf’s Coup-9/11 and the legitimacy-indispensability debate that has resulted in more political instability and political exclusion; and finally the threat perception. At that point I was aware that US army was carrying out war games (simulate various options) to attack Pakistan and that Pakistan Army was evaluating contingencies if that happened. So in my view, it was all the more important that readers at chowk particularly the serious minded are made aware of another angle within the present crisis, that could act like a rider clause. In fact I requested the editors to publish it immediately which they did. In my assessment, (I own this view) Negroponte’s rush to Pakistan had little to do with democracy but more to mend fences and allay fears. Read today’s Dawn and draw your own conclusions.

http://www.dawn.com/2007/12/03/top7.htm

Now the 1988-99 Events
1. Aslam Baig could have taken over, but he provided military backing and finally Benazir came to power. We could have endless debates on what happened and what could not.
2. The army when called out in Karachi by the PPP and Nawaz governments complied. As an aside, I was on a hunting trip to Toba Achakzai in 1992, when two proclaimed offenders belonging to MQM were slipped out of Pakistan by Asmat Militia of PKMAP to Afghanistan. They were Safdar Baqri and Saleem Shezad. We were stranded in Gulistan for a week where the rumour was that they were being provided sanctuaries by the Afghan government. So when someone from MQM supports BLA, my mind goes back there.
3. With squabbles not coming to an end, it was Waheed Kakar, who had forced both the President and Prime Minister to leave.
4. In Nawaz Sharif’s row with the Chief Justice and President, The Army under JK stood by the Prime Minister. According to Ch. Nisar, Corps Commander Mangla, LT Gen Musharraf fully supported the Prime Minister during one of the conferences and was therefore rewarded.

Visits to GHQ
There is something known as ‘Operational Briefings’. These are held in special briefing rooms- something like a bubble with jammers, high frequency generators etc, so that the conversations are not intercepted. They are always held in GHQ for everybody. Its too risky carrying maps and Eyes Only briefs to insecure locations proliferated with bugs and sensors.

Kayani
I may be an idealist in my thinking but cannot be wishful about an assessment. Kayani is one man, who was the DGMO, Spy Chief and now the Chief. Everything has unfolded before him. Just because USA thinks that he has their backing and that he will fight their war with renewed vigour and boot out Musharraf, they are in for a surprise and so are the many self styled reformists. The reality is that given a choice, military due to institutional choice will always tilt towards security, an economist towards economy and a doctor towards medicine.

Afghanistan
I agree with your point on Afghanistan. It may surprise many, but the contours of Pakistan’s Afghan Policy were drawn in the mid 70s by Bhutto and Naseer Ullah Babar, who was then the Inspector General of Frontier Corps in NWFP. This was done in the backdrop of growing propaganda emanating from Kabul and supported by India for Pakhtoonistan. Some Afghan Student leaders and dissidents like Hikmatyar, Ahmad Shah Masud, Rabbani and Younis Khalis were brought to Pakistan for training and unleashed on Sardar Daud’s Regime. This mass insurgency( thgat HP allused to) moderated Daud in 1977 and he was now prepared to sign the Durand Line. Unfortunately Zia’s Coup removed Bhutto and an opportunity was lost. Soon Daud too was murdered and then came the Soviet invasion. Also recall that French Book, 'Muslim Threat to Soviet Russia'

As for East Pakistan
War is an instruemnent of Policy. The level and duration of conflict are laid by political objectives and complimented in tandem with other instruements of policy. Because the military was at the helm of affairs in 1971, they should have excluded violence as an instruemnt of solution to the political crises. They did not and chose the military crackdown in March 1971 despite a very hostile international environment. I still remember what an Indian Newspaper had to say about the surrender,
"For these men, the war ended early. They fought hard at the battle of Khulna. Now they stand in the sun, having obeyed the final dreaded order of their commander, 'lay down your arms'". My brother a captain, surrendered there on 21st december was in the picture with many other soldiers.

Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began.I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?

ijaz_gul #: "Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began.I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?"

...i was a toddler, learning to ride a tricycle.......

you are analyzing the army too much....take a look at their training and the level of individuals inducted into the army......they totally lack the ability to think beyond a certain level for solutions.....lack of exposure, education and intellect....kayani can only think so much and only has so much exposure.......

a donkey remains a donkey, even if he wears a general's ranks.......and a genius remains a genius even if he is riding on a donkey.....

you are hugely overestimating the abilities of pakistani generals.....hugely is an understatement.....

# 49
You say:
"Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began., I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?"

My advice to you is to keep it dispassionate. Nationalism is the last refuge for the scoundrel (eg. Mushrraf in the garb of “Pakistan first“). Just because you stood with a machine gun in 1971, certainly does not make you a better person than Romair.

# 49
You say:
"Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began., I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?"

My advice to you is to keep it dispassionate. Nationalism is the last refuge for the scoundrel (eg. Mushrraf in the garb of “Pakistan first“). Just because you stood with a machine gun in 1971, certainly does not make you a better person than Romair.

Re: # 45 paki wolf

blah, blah, blah... you can put lipstic on your pig till the cows come home... the bottomline is - you lost half the country and surrendered meekly...

Don't be a sore loser... own up to the fact that you pakis have always been surrender monkeys... it's in your blood - you have surrendered to each two bit invaders that came over the khyber pass...

And now you are surrendering to ragtag talibans...

I mean - east pakiland was your own territory - you were fighting inside your own territory - it wasn't "1000 miles away"... even if it was - so what? you should have planned accordingly... put more logistics in ground from the beginning... you should have taken steps win over bong hearts and minds - that should ahve been easy, you were all moslems, weren't you?...

you knew your weaknesses... But you didn't plan... surrender monkeys never do... because, it doesn't matter - when going gets tough, they just surrender... :)

"ijaz_gul #: "Today is 3 December when that dreaded war began.I was then in National Service fighting off an indian offensive near Lahore with a machine gun. Where were you Romair?"

...i was a toddler, learning to ride a tricycle.......

HAHA. Great response...

Ijaz Gul; U are the defender of an institution that is indefensible. I am not referring to the PAF and the PN, which are by and large professional institutions. Pak Army is a mafia that has flogged the dream of Indian hegemony to rape the country of Pakistan. Why not compare salaries and benefits of the Indian and Pakistani Armies?

what's up with this Ijaz Gul guy? Dhimmitude on steroids?

Indian Army Rank Pay Scale:

Lt. Rs. 8250-300-10050
Capt. Rs. 9600-300-11400
Major Rs. 11600-325-14850
**Major on their stagnating for one year at the maximum scale of major, are granted the pay scale of Lt. Col. As shown below along with rank pay of Major.
Lt. Col. Rs. 13500-400-17100
Col. Rs. 15100-450-17350
Brig. Rs. 16700-450-18050

For a great example of Pakistan Army attitudes, please do a web search on Riaz Jafri. His pontifications are a typical example of a ruling midset to which Romair refers to.

Some of Pakistan’s most respected soldiers and generals have already published an open letter calling for Musharraf’s resignation as president. One of the authors of the letter, the former intelligence chief Lieutenant-General Talat Masood, said Musharraf was on his own.

“General Kayani will not take interference from Musharraf,” Masood said. “He will not take orders for the advancement of his personal interest; he will not prop him up. He wants the army more professionally engaged and is reluctant to be involved in politics. He wants to raise the prestige of the army in the eyes of the people.

Kayani, a chain-smoking thinker with a passion for golf, is widely regarded as more honest and less extrovert than Musharraf."(London Times)


No smoking General Kayani -- it's a health hazard -- but you can smoke out ex-general Musharraf -- that will be healthy.

Let me start this interact with some kudos to Ijaz Gul for a well-structured write-up; and the very 'civil' responses to some of the 'uncivil' interacts...
Thank you #34 goldfinger: I'm sure it is water off the duck's back, as far as bulleya is concerned!
#35 bulleya [Romair?]".....i did whatever i could to try to change the system, when i was in the military....i seriously doubt i would have gone beyond the rank of major, since i had too many bad reports against me.....
....mates or no mates.....one needs to highlight facts..and trust me, the pakistan military has some very serious problems....and i am not talking about its intervention in politics....i am talking about its own internal problems of management, moral, motivation, and lack of leadership...."
You are to be commended for using the small 'i' when referring to yourself - and I'm sure we now understand the angst that burns you and the lack of esteem for an exemplary Institution, erstwhile comrades and some of those who ought to have been your mentors [who obviously became your 'tormentors' as they did not see much in you and gave you all those "bad reports" which would have prevented your promotion even to the rank of major!!]
If you left as 'captain', how can you pass judgement on all those high-sounding corporate terms about Pakistan Army's "internal problems'??!!
I will not waste more space on this two-bit discussion of your posts, bulleya [By the way, is it as in the typical rural jargon for calling-out?; or is it as in 'bulls-eye' for getting a 10 on the SA Ranges?!!]
Any society, institution, gathering, group, or assembly will always have an assortment of "the good, the bad, the ugly". Pakistan Army is no different. But, seriously, Romair is right in that the system has been skewed and, from the time of the late Gen Zia ul Haq, there has been a serious downward drift in the standards of recruitment as well as PMA training, unit spirit [the esprit-de-corps] which literally created a 'superman' out of a virtual non-entity: Ijaz Gul's observations about coming across some very good representatives of the Pakistan Armed Forces during his international workshops or seminars/training et al, are, unfortunately, exceptions as stated by bulleya.
By and large, however, I would imagine that Pakistan Army is still largely made up of better-than-average personnel: soldiers and officers. The flabulance has set in, and too much materialism, and pomp and pelf has dwindled the 'spirit' of the Army. This is a regret that is personally more painful: my association with the Institution of Pakistan Army is spread over 32 years; the best period of four years were spent in the Pakistan Military Academy as a Platoon and Company Commander. I feel 10-feet tall in recalling the establishment of the 'Junior Cadet Batallion' and all those intense training outings with my cadets'......
I still feel as proud being an ex-Pakistan Army person, as I am sure goldfinger must be. bulleya [and others], please don't be overly pious of yourselves - please don't trash us!!
Cheerios to you too, Ijaz Gul!!

This is my post #29 in Ahmad Qureishi's "Plan to Topple Pakistan Army": it is equally applicable to the discussion thread here, and the doubting thomases':
"A lot of ridicule - some grudging acceptance - a little civility and commendation, spiced with a wee bit of doubting on Pak Army's "hidden workings"!
Seriously, haven't you chaps heard of the 'jewish conspiracy/protocols of the elders of zion' [Moscow, 1895], Why were the 2000 years of wandering suddenly turned into a neat enclave for the "12 lost tribes" and that chap Balfour planted? Why did the 'pograms' of Hitler happen?; how did the world take notice of that ridiculous Huntington's 'clash of civilisations'; or 'the end of history'; who encouraged the Armed Forces Journal to bring up 'blood borders' right in the middle of the desperation of bloodied Iraq?? - a follow-up to the set-up job with the Russians for creating 'the BLA'? And the Indians conveniently be-friending the Northern Alliance, and becoming their godfathers, with really cozy arrangements on the Afghan-Pakistan borders?? - and, finally, the 'neo-con agenda'?? The hunt for strategic oil reserves and the complicity of Bremer with Cheney to squirrel away $10 ++ billion worth of crude....it's a small notation in the US Office of GPA [General Public Accounting] document for fiscal 2004-5..
Why is it that nobody - but nobody - talks of the many 'jewish, ready-to-defrag' bombs & nukes? But, omigosh!, so much cussedness and frothing on the 'islamic bomb'??!!
Those of you who sound-off about the "b-s" and "crap" and "nonsense' and whatnot of Pakistan Army and Pervez Musharraf, do give your little grey cells a bit of fresh-air, and 'thiMk'!!
In today's DAWN, there is a big headline about BB's fear of "balkanisation" of Pakistan...after our brotherly Country, Turkey's President had a talk with her and others : on the hard facts of life in the future if allowed to happen!
Do pray to The Almighty that Created you!!

Mateen,
I appreciate your supportive views and welcome to chowk.
Just as you said, the good the bad the ugly all go togather. Chowk is just that. Good for one is ugly for the other.
Though Romair has been too dismissive of whatever I wrote, I wonder how as a captain in perhaps EME, he gathered such an insight about the entire working of the armed forces. Today, he brings his alma mater from JCB to aeronautical engineering to disrepute. Surely with his training and degree courses, he hardly had a chance to serve in the field army as he exited early.
Some other time I will write an essay on what ails the armed forces. For instance, officership is stratified too early, there are too many compartments in career mobilisation like the administrative,training and GS streams, and why so early in their careers, officers loose the desire to work hard. Soldiers retire too young and hardly have any opportunities other than becoming security gaurds etc. In one of my mountain expeditions, I came across a subedar with SJ, hired as a porter. Well these are points for some other time.
As a voter, I do not know whom to vote for. Already had enough of NS and BB. Where are the alternatives? Imran has not filled the void. Judiciary and lawyers are split.
We are trying to stamp a mouse while there is a tiger at our door.
Cherios

Re: # 62

"As a voter, I do not know whom to vote for. Already had enough of NS and BB. Where are the alternatives?".

Right there in your constituency. Vote for the best candidate regardles of the party he/she belongs to. The rest will take care of itself.

ijaz_gul / MateenMM,

... I feel 10-feet tall in recalling the establishment of the 'Junior Cadet Batallion'

... the entire working of the armed forces ... We are trying to stamp a mouse while there is a tiger at our door.

I have two questions:

Granted that the Pakistan Army is an excellent, well-trained, elite institution:

1) What has it done which has helped Pakistan since Operation Gibraltar?

2) If there is a tiger at our door (assuming there is one in the first place because having an experience of Governments, any Government, I know they don't and cannot think that far because of internal limitations), how's the Pakistani Military going to stop that Tiger given their past record in losing to armed enemies and kicking around judges?

Thanks.

Re: # 53

The Hindu fascination with animals continues mentioning pigs, monkeys and cows to make a supposedly intellectual point. While you were at it you could have added a few other animals such as Elephants, rats, snakes etc so you could have the whole crew of Gods that make Hinduism so logical and divine.

Mohar you want to point to the bottom line because it hurts your pride to analyze the actual course of events even without India’s intervention East Pakistan was going to be a separate country because it was a geographical anomaly and the political chaos that in sued after operation search light Mujib had already given the call for declaration of Independence so India was just a vehicle at the end of the day. Other than religion there was nothing common between West Pakistanis and East Pakistanis and anthropologically speaking language, culture and customs take precedent over religion it’s human nature. Look at the divide between North and South India you cannot even decide on which GOD to worship and what to eat and speak.

You tried hard to come with an intelligent argument but the statement you made showed that you are an intellectual dwarf and if you take your false ego out of the equation then India’s win in East Pakistan can be put into perspective. Yes it will not make India look like the heroes because they did not fight against the odds Pakistanis did even Sam Manekshaw acknowledges that but then reading history probably is not your forte and accepting Indian mediocrity in the eastern theatre of war will hurt your national pride after all what else a little man like you have.

I particularly enjoyed your idiotic sentence about Kyber Pass invasions that was a classic case of stupidity I mean to even justify writing an answer for that ………Again it’s your biased Indian education that needs to be blamed who forgot to tell you the factual History of the subcontinent invasions and all pre-and post independence.

The real problem faced by Mohar is the inherent inferiority complex that Hindus have due to the Muslim conquests in India. As Indra Ghandhi said after the 1971 war “we have taken the revenge for one thousand years of Muslim rule”. This statement from the prime minister of India speaks volumes of the psyche of an Indian Hindu. As long as you feel you have to prove your marital powers as a patron of Hindtuva fanaticism to rid the Hindu mind set of historical Muslim domination in the India you will keep on bashing Pakistani Muslims to save your fragile ego. Trust me it’s okay to eat daal and subzi!

What you need is a shrink not a history lesson or maybe you should do what Hindus do best in India go burn a few Muslim neighborhoods beat them rape them tell them to go to Pakistan while they cry their love for India extra loud telling you how much they hate Pakistan. That’s Mohar idea of therapy it will make him look big and tall and progressive the real idea behind a “Shining India”.

After all the pictures of Hanuman looking like He-Man in current Hindu media is bound to create a new generation of Hindu fanatics looking for Muslim blood to pay for there make believe thousand years of humiliation.

#64 er..actually...Operation Gibralter wasnt much of a help either - hundreds of lives were lost on both sides due to the violence and the resulting 1965 war...and when the dust settled the LoC had not moved an inch.

pakwolf: i am less worried about indians nowadays - with nuclear weapons, india is no longer a threat. the threat to Pakistan is now our own military - which i hope will now realize that they have been used by musharraf to stoke his personal ambitions while destroying the judiciary and trying to enslave the Pakistani people.

#66 Posted by tahmed32,

tahmed32 you misread my post. I mean the period since and inclusive of Op Gibraltar.

I'm waiting for my answer.

#68 I am waiting too for an answer to your question from ijazgul and Mateen.

Re: # 65 Pakwolf

It does not matter whether Indians achieved their objectives fair and square or not. The point is that we lost both politically and militarily because of the NaPak fouj and its complete disregard for constitution, lawlessness, and incompetence; not to mention a total disregard for the lives of the citizens of Pakistan. Well if Indians rub our nose in dirt over 1971, then they in fact earned it. Everything is fair in war since war is a means to an end. And at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the fact who achieved their objectives.

NaPak fouj lost another golden opportunity to get even with India when they relented on the Jihad that started in 1988 in Kashmir. These things take time. The startegy was correct and should have continued. The Kargil strategy was also correct but what really matters now is the outcome. Lets accept the fact that NaPak fouj doesn't have it in them to pursue an objective until its logical conclusion. I do not understand what is keeping NaPak fouj from not gassing the Indian soldiers in Siachin who invaded and occupied no-mans land. They are absolutely fair game.
The past 5 years since ghyarween sahreef has been a golden opprtunity once again while all Western neo-colonilist have their testicles tied to the trees in Afghanistan. The puppet regime in Afghanistan would not last 20 minutes if Pakistan stops supporting it. Then why?

The answer is that NaPak fouj has turned into property dealers instaed of being soldiers. In Pujnab the word used for property dealer is "dalal". And that is what they have turned into. They have no regard for law or constitution. This mafia has become a country witin a country where they speak their own language, have cordoned off areas where they live, have their own schools and colleges, hospitals, banks, industries and what not. They are not symbiots they are parasites. They are coward and bayghairat. They are the najaiz aulaad of East India Company,and treat the rest of the "natives' as conquered people. I do not think anything less than a disbandment of this criminal organization would let us free. We have to do social boycott of military, military families and civil disobedience to the martial law. They must be made parriahs inside and outside of the country. We must taunt their children to have them suffer the inferiority complex. They must be told that they are off springs of criminals and thugs. The dismemberment of this criminal organization will be the first step towards getting even with Indians for 1971. And that shall we.

The only war that Pakistan has ever won, where it captured territory and maintained it was the Jihad of Kashmir in 1948 under the leadership of a civilian leader and fought by a rag tag army of civilians. That is when Azad Kashmir won its independence and became part of Pakistan.

I think the only thing that Napak fouj has ever done right was its decision to counter the soviet exansionism and startegy to achieve this objective. In 60 years of span this single right is still quite pathetic.

Link to meeting a few days back of Musharraf reps with Pakistanis in NY. Over an hour long - but worth it. While the musharraf's lawyer Saif, like musharraf, tried to hog the time by rambling on with fake "facts" - the audience was not fooled and gave hell to the trio (note the first question in particular, which was the most polite and at the same time the most devastating of all - reminding the trio of the death penalty under the 1973 Constitution for committing a coup).

http://www.asiasociety.org/resources/pakemergency.html