An Insight Into Pakistan Army and Musharraf

"He refused to declare Martial Law and retained the incumbent President as the titular head of state. "

When a person takes over a country, abrogates the constitution (commits High Treason per 1973 constitution) and declares himself as the ruler just because of the 'sole' virtue of being the head of the Pakistan Criminal Army. What is it if not Martial Law?

You sound like the cousin of Saddam's information minister Baghdad Bob, I thought that job was already taken here.

Arjun over to you.

I was deeply offended by the adjectives like genral, president etc. while referring to these criminals of NaPak fouj. This is not an emotional outburst but this contention is based in constitution. The article 243-245 of the constitution of Pakistan command the estabklisment opf armed forces and governs their conduct. But just as soon as these haramis annul the constitution they nullify their own legitemacy as a national organization as well descending themsleves down to the level of a criminal mafia. As a matter of fact NaPak fouj is the biggest, deadliest, and most lawless criminal mafia in the whole wide world. It is incombunt upon each and every Pakistani not to recognize their authority and if circumstances permit civil disobedience should be in order.

...i am afraid the pakistan military is in deep decay...this article does not highlight it....perhaps because the author has not seen the inside life of the military, on a day to day basis......

......pakistan military is functioning like a military, amongst the enlisted and, perhaps, upto the officers of the ranks of captain.......after that, there are major problems....

......the two biggest problems the military is facing is that no one in the military realizes its decaying state......and even if they did realize it, they do not have the intellect, exposure or education to fix it.....

.....i have met so many generals in my life......the current lot that is running the military, were my commanders, as majors and colonels, when i joined......i know them too well.....

......in capability, i would rank them far lower than the individuals i have met in pakistan from the private sector.....specially in education, intellect and exposure....

....however, the military as an institution has been dominating the country for so long, that as an institution, it is far more organized than any other....it is thus able to get most of the nation's resources, and is able to control the executive, legislature and now the judiciary.....not to mention business.....

.....however, when a decaying organization controls so much of the state, eventually the state decays also......this is what is happening to pakistan.....

....i think a total overhaul of the military is needed......not only within the domain of society-military relations, but also within its own domain.....it is still run like the 1946 british army........

.....the qualifications of a general of 1970s will be identical to those who will become generals in 30 years...they have not evolved......

........the whole training ethos of the military has to be changed....pma has to stop giving out watered down useless b.a. degrees (which are not recognized anywhere)......paf has to stop giving out watered down b.a. degrees in geography......command officers, need to have more of an education than a fake m.a degree in strategic studies from quaid azam university (or at best one from uk or usa), as their only form of education......

.......every command officer should at the very least be forced to compete in the best instutions in pakistan - lums, giki, etc. - they should have to be forced to work with private sector organizations for a few years, where they will be exposed to the best and brightest of pakistan.....

at the moment, only the medical branch (and to some extent engineers) get such exposure........both are not in command positions.......

there are many more points........for example, the judiciary, within the military is non-existent......the jag is a figure head controlled by the coas.......which is probably why musharraf and other generals have such little respect for the chief justice......

........needless to say, the pakistan military is in a sad state......it is degenarating at a rapid pace.....its only saving grace is that its enlisted and junior officers are very patriotic and dedicated........from the rank of colonel onwards it is major incompetence, lack of world affairs and far too much interest in plots and business.......

Absolutely bogus. If Mushrraf was not responsible on Kargil, why does he not allow Nawaz's demand for a commission on it. Ijaz Gul you are pathetic!!!

Mushrraf will go down in history as the worst army chief. He will even make seem Zia's rule seem as a mere tea party.

You say:

"The Kargil Fiasco was seen as an affront to the army and strategic objectives around Siachin."

What the **** do you mean by this. Is it not more of an affront to the Pakistnai people who have been sacrificing food and education? We have an army that is more into real estate than defence. They cannot fight a war for more than 10 days. They have lost all profesionalism because the senior most generals are more into greasing their palms with corrupt deals.

....according to pakistani constitution and law, it is a black and white case, that musharraf has committed treason (twice, though the firs time with public support).....he has admitted to it....

according the same law, and a ruling by the previous supreme court, all staff officers (as well as kiyani) have committed treason.....

this is the biggest crime anyone can commit in a country.....ghaddari.....it carries a death penalty......

the fact that the author is discussing kiyani, as if he is the savior of the military, when, in fact, his treason should be discussed, shows the current condition of the pakistani military......the whole definition of right and wrong is standing on its head......

........there is a criteria i use to judge the strength of an organization......how many people in it are willing to take a stand against something they feel to be incorrect......60-70% of pakistan's judiciary has resigned.....the press and lawyers are up in arms......whole channels have been closed but they refused to bend.......some politicians are in jail......etc.

.....but how many generals, air marshalls, and admirals have resigned.....zero.....no one has shown character.....

...let me give you some information on three chiefs of staff who headed the three pakistani forces, at the same time......i won't use names other than musharraf.....

....army - musharraf committed treason, and then extended his rule way beyond even the three years given by his new supreme court

....navy - the chief committed massive corruption, retired and retired to the usa.......he was brought back and convicted.....however, during his trial, musharraf made sure he stayed in a guest house, and not in jail, where the other govt. servants (including ministers) are sent....

.....air force - the air force chief had a small piece of land in prime location in lahore (which was under paf administration) turned into plots and allocated at throw away prices, to himself and his air officers (generals).....from what i have heard, the chief sold it within days for double-digit fold profits.......

so let's keep things in perspective.....trust me, above the rank of, at best, major the miliary is totally degenerating...

just take musharraf's example, in his own profession......he has not won a single war in which he has participated or commanded......he was in 1971, lost (though he was too junior, so not his fault).......he was in decision making positions in siachen, lost........he was commanding the army in kargil....lost......he was commanding the army in waziristan.....lost.....

you are, perhaps, my favorite writer on chowk.....but you are letting patriotism get the better of you......need to wake up and smell the gunsmoke.....the patient is sick.....he needs surgery....not paracetemol....

romair, i was under the impression that with US military alliance (non-NATO member, fore front in the afgan war etc) pakistani officers got top-notch staff training in US staff colleges, top-gun academies etc. why do you say they are ill-trained?

Re: # 5

".....but how many generals, air marshalls, and admirals have resigned.....zero.....no one has shown character..... '

I think they are scared out of wits of the day of guiloutines, which is inching towards them slowly but surely. They are trained and groomed with a midset that tells them that "inn haramzadoN (civilians) ko ziada sir par nahiN charhana chahiyay". And now they are scared to death that rif raf is begining to stand up for themselves and another 1971 like surrender is written on the wall. This time there won't be a "Nia Pakistan". This time there will be guilotines and firing squads. I don't think these coward fukks have it in them for a masada stand off. Probably, they are seeking dual natinalities with Canada or Britton etc. I've heard that in Toronto these assholes, i.e. retired officers of NaPak fouj have even established a union or organization of some sort and someone was telling me that each and every member is a multimillionair.

jang #: ....pakistan military is divided into three sections, like all militaries - army, air force, navy.......

.....these are, further, divided into two major sections...each branch has a command line (pilots, infantry, armour, submariners etc., i.e. those who fight), and a supporting line (engineers, doctors, telecom etc.)....

.....the second group in the the military are quite well-trained....they compete internationally...five of my batchmates who are engineers have ph.ds. from the usa.....one of my closest friends in the army is one of pakistan's very good young heart specialists.....etc.

...however, the command branch officers get very little training outside of what was established 50 years ago......in fact, the training sytem has not evolved since the 60s.....same pma, and other academies....same staff college etc.....

the non-nato status etc. gives them access to a few months courses in small insignificant areas in usa etc....the odd one gets to attend a military academy abroad (but even those aren't known for intellectual activities)..

......however, none of them go to professional schools for mba's etc.......while the us military sends all its command officers to top notch civilian schools......

....other than courses in infantry, armour, flying, and one staff college (which even those who flunked high school with me, have passed), they get very little education......and hardly any exposure.....

compare this to people in pakistan's private sector, who have harvard mbas, have worked in usa, europe, middle east etc., with the best and brightest and you can easily see the difference.......

in fact, in command branches, education is considered a negative.....in addition, those joining the military in these branches are amongst the worse high school students.....not a single one of my batchmates in the command branches could have gotten into any engineering univ or medical college in pakistan.....

...all of the above combined creates a very very mediocre general staff.......hardly any of whom could have gotten into civil services, IT, telecom, banks etc. in a professional capacity.......some of my colleagues, who may become generals had trouble clearing high-school.....

one could argue that they are soldiers, and just need to fight....that is true, and they are quite good at that.....however, the fighting stops after the rank of colonel.....then intelligence, exposure, intellect, creativity, managerial skills, etc. become important.....this is what they lack.....

perhaps indian military has the same limitations, as do many third world militaries.....however, in such situations, the military should be under strong civilian oversight, of individuals who have exposure, and education.....

.......in pakistan's case, it is the opposite...the miltiary has oversight and control over those who have education and exposure.....so the corps commander who barely got through b.a. and is trained to command tanks, is also the chairman of board of a large bank, under whom sit harvard degree holders........another is the head of the largest real-estate corporation in pakistan......another is a dean of a univeristy, which he himself could never have qualified for as a student!!.....

jang #:...i had known, what i mentioned below, for a long time......however, i always felt that it was incompetence and not character degeneration......

however, over the past two years, as i have gotten re-introduced to them, i have realized that in term of character and social structure, the military has degenerated.....this has happened over the past ten years, and wasn't there during my time (other than at the very very high ranks)......

as an institution, the military is degenerating (kind of like the police, etc.)......while as an institution the judicary (and legal profession as a whole) and media is strengthening are re-generating.....

General Bulleya sir,mind naa karein but why are you such a shoda ? You remind me of one of those guys who wear bellbottoms and do wheelies on their CD-70's on the footpaths of commercial market pindi.

#7


If the army officers were so well educated, why would they enter into the civil bureaucracy by the back door? Why do they not sit for the CSS exam?
Under Mushrraf we have had a stream of incompetent army goofs, half baked dimwits entering into not only the civil services but also academia...

If the army officers were up to snuff, why do they not apply for a job like the rest of the civilians? Why do they have to create a conglomerate to subsidize the post army careers. they have created an entire cantonment economy because they know that with they are duffers and they cannot get into the private sector on their own steam, apart from jobs such as outsourced credit card collections in banks (where they use strong arm tactics on credit card delinquents). They use ex army for these jobs beacuse they have no regard for the rule of law .

i doubt that ex-army folks are incopetant..its just that they take the easy way ..its natural for anyone to do so when the setup permits. noone will compete unnecessarily.

Re: # 12 Well said!!

Roamir,

for a long time yoy were the greatest defender of teh purity of the pak army, and sad to note that since you left teh army, the standards have declined and you are admitting that.

Take it from me Romair, the entire pak society is on the decline, the politicians are correupt and the latest see teh crime reports, it is the security guards that are carrying out bank roberies.

The law and order system has collapsed...and now in pakistan each for his/her own.. the society is imploding.

"A police official told Dawn that arms had been seized from the home of the driver, Umer Khan, which he had allegedly taken from the militants. During clashes, he had transported the militants in his ambulance to a safe location.

Nineteen policemen have been dismissed from service by district police officer Waqif Khan on the charge of supporting Fazlullah."

from dawn of today

Romair,

The police supporting teh tribals, the ambulance driver helping the militants
well this is not degradation, this is implosion.