An Insight Into Pakistan Army and Musharraf

Romair,
The subject is "INSIGHT". It means how the military thinks. My own views are expressed as causative. Rather than just letting the flak go, it would be more fruitful to evaluate some of the perceptions as RIGHT, WRONG or EXAGGERATED.

Romair, you may have served in some technical arm and benefitted from the same criteria you now criticise, but you must also have the patience to listen to others rather than undermine.

As for my knowledge of armed forces.
Three generations have served in the armed forces. As an academician, I have lectured senior officers attending Graduate and Post Graduate Courses in public sector universities in competition with civilians including civil servants. I tell you, they competed and were never as dull as you think.

I covered a Pacific Armies Military Seminar (PAMS) in Singapore in 1999 attended by over 33 countries including Pakistan and India. Let me tell you that Pakistani officers were the most logical and articulate speakers to the extent that they were singled out for citation by the US Army Joint Chief in the closing ceremony. One of them (Brigadier)in now a Corps Commander and the other was a Christian Colonel.

I have also covered some international disarmanent talks on chemical weapons, CTBT and NPT. Invariably, Pakistani delegation also comprised serving officers from the Air Force and Army. One was an infantry officer while the other a fighter pilot. Believe me, they were real good even in face of such disarmament experts as Condi etc.
I have also lectured similar audience abroad including military officers from USA, Britain, Germany, France,Japan,Bangladesh, Australia and New Zealand.
I hope this is sufficient as far as my military knowledge goes.
Cheerios

Re: # 16

"The police supporting teh tribals, the ambulance driver helping the militants
well this is not degradation, this is implosion."

Jay ji,

That was a clear statement of current implosion

ijaz_gul #17: " hope this is sufficient as far as my military knowledge goes."

..i am afraid it isn't....your exposure is still from the outside.....it's kind of like someone from the usa, meeting pakistani politicians in seminars, every now and then.....if the only politicians he meets are aitezaz ahsan and imran khan, he might have a very high opinion of the sophistication of the politicians......

....in your case, you are meeting the few best and brightest, and that too in a closed session........you are not getting exposure to the complete organization and its social structure.....

......there are engineers in the pakistan military, who have scored the top positions in the best american universities; doctors who have done the same in uk.....

barring the doctors, all fighting arms, technical arms etc. get trained together, in one group as cadets....so we all know (knew) each others competence, in all three branches...

......i follow up with my friends in the military and in the civilian and private sectors regularly....i know them like i know my siblings....it is very easy to see the difference in calibre, education and exposure...

an analysis of the military needs to start at the following level:

1. calibre of individuals joining the military as cadets
2. calibre of training provided to those individuals during their early career
3. calibre of training provided to them during the rest of the careers
4. exposure to the civil and private sector
5. exposure to the rest of the world
6. competitiveness of the environment they operate in
7. incorporation of technology as a management and organizational tool
8. state of the military legal system
9. morale of employees
10. evolution of organization over the past 50 years to keep up with int'l standards
11. excess management layers
etc.

if you do an analysis over the above points, you will easily see that the military is stuck where it was in the 60s, while the rest of pakistan's professional sector has kept up with the rest of the world....this is because their is no civilian oversight over the military and it does not operate in a cut throat environment......

i will give you detailed examples of all of this, later.....however, rest assured, pakistan military is a national institution.....when national institution's start degenerating heavily, the most patriotic thing to do is to demand accountability and restructuring......pakistan military needs massive restructuring, to bring it in pace with where it should be......

Romair,
ijaz_gul@yahoo.com
facebook: ijaz.gul@gmail.com
myspace: ijaz_gul@yahoo.com
Lets learn more from you. I will wait.
Cheerios

If as the author says this article merely describes how the Army thinks of itself, and its perception of Pakistan and its politics, and not what it actually is or Pakistan is, he is right.

"This charade of political legitimacy with a mindset of 1935 began with an ill advised referendum. "

"The mind set of 1935 will try to prevail once again."


What is this "mindset of 1935" which you mention twice?

Sadna,
You got to read my essay on Emergency already on the left banner on FP.

One of the premise is that natives are not capable of exercising fully grown democracy. Therefore they must be guided by the representatives of the Viceroy.

Cheerios

#23 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Thanks for clarifying the premise.

Beena Sarwar's article at the top places a better perspective in whether the natives are capable of exercising democracy or not.

You bloody civilian!!
----------------------

....the worse insult that could be thrown at any of us, when we were cadets, was not to be called a piece of sh//t, fuc//ing cho//tya, etc.....this was the run of the mill abuse.....the ultimate insult was to be called a civilian.....when someone called you that, it was worse than being called a be//ncho//d or anything similar...

....this is the environment which first met us, when we started our careers....a civilian was the lowest of the low...and we were far superior.....it didn't make any difference that hardly any of us could have competed in the civil circuit in any profession......

.....by the time we graduated, we knew nothing of the civilian world......what to talk of new york or london, we didn't even know lahore or karachi....the most competent person in the world was a general, and the most useless a civilian - specifically politicians....and we were the saviors....

......within the first year of our commission, a few of our collegues in the army had an interesting incident......one of their majors, apparently, got in a accident with a sitting mpa....and was beaten up.....a whole group of my army batchmates decided it was time to take action......these guys were lieutants, barely in their early twenties......they blocked gt road (main highway between peshawar and pindi)......went to the mpa's house and beat him black and blue till he fainted...then they exited on their motorcycles on the empty GT road.....nothing was done to them and they are now majors and colonels.....

.....another one of my friend's sisters were shopping in jinnah market when some civilians were rude to them.....they came and complained....two of my friends - both captains - went and confronted this large group of civilians....quite a brave action....pretty soon, a whole group of army officers who were in the market joined up with them......once again the civilians took a beating....to put some icing on the cake, one of the officers picked up the main civilian leader and locked him in his unit's jail......

.......another military friend once told me an interesting story.....he was interested in a girl....he realized some other civilian guy was interested in her and was following her.....he had him picked up also, for a day.....

.......two years ago, i was sitting with another friend in the army....the discussion, somehow, came to akbar bugti.....he said, we have to kill him.....he has started a state within a state.....it would be one thing if this guy was a general......but he was a major.....if even majors think like this, what must generals be thinking....

there was another trend developing in my days....i went to a wedding and was received by two more military colleagues....we gave each other the traditional pakistani bear hug....i felt something on th side of their hips....it turned out both of them were wearing pistols.....for no rhyme or reason, they felt they could do so......

a lawyer friend of mine was fighting a case in an air force court.....he won the case....it went to the coas.....he ordered a retrial.....he won again.....coas ordered another retrial.....on the third trial, he lost.....so much for respect for th judiciary.....

...strangely, i used to look at all this, and while i realized that beating up civilians was illegal, in all these cases, i felt they deserved it.....

.......this is the atmosphere, through which the average pakistani officer earns his wings and his definition of right and wrong......this is specifically true for those in the army...

...so if people want to understand why musharraf beats up on civilians and thinks it is ok, or has zero regard for the judiciary, or thinks the word, "civilian" is a four letter word, to the point of always emphasizing he is a soldier and not a civilian, even when he was occupying the highest office in the land (presidency), they need to look at his upbringing and the upbringing of every other pakistani officer.....

when you are taught, as a leiutenant, that being called a civilian is worse than being called a mother-fu//er, and that you can go and beat up on civilians - literally physically - anytime you want and everyone up til the corps commanders will support you and that the army judges are useless non-career officers, then by the time you become a general, you are so brainwashed that you won't even realize what is treason and what is not......

kayani and musharraf have committed treason - open and shut case.......what is sad is that musharraf has openly admitted that he has done so, and still sees nothing wrong with it......it is all a result of what he was taught in his formative military years about civilians......

Ditto with the Indian army, youngsters mostly young lieutnants and captains have beaten up the policemen right in the thanas when a brother officer has been manhandled by the police or the modesty of a brother officer's wife has been attacked by the policemen. Mind you, the army only has fisticuffs with the local police who are otherwise bullys and corrupt ones at that. The civilians have hugely relished this treatment meted out by the army probably because they themselves could never dream of doing it to the policemen. Of course, the local garrison commander has a lot of explaining to do to higher-ups for this esprit-de-corps displayed by the young officers, but such episodes keep the civilian police in military garrison towns on their toes and best behaviour (at least as far the army personnel are concerned). "Bloody civilian" is very much a takia kalam in the army, but no army attacks on civilians have been heard of.

muqaddam #: "The civilians have hugely relished this treatment meted out by the army probably because they themselves could never dream of doing it to the policemen"

perhaps a hangover from british rule, but quite interesting to see the same happens in india......this is qutie common in pakistan also...in fact, much of the violence in pakistan is from the army (not air force or navy), and much of that is towards the police.....i always felt the civilians loved it, when the police got beat up by the army captains and lieutenants....

police is a totally degenerated institution in pakistan.....the military, up til twenty to thirty years ago, wasn't......now it is well on its way to being like the police.......

ijaz_gul#23
Thanks.

One should always consider all problems indians are making from 1947.They are arming defunct baloach Lib.. gunda gardi and are playing $30,000 cash for blowing gas pipeline, railway or electric pylon even general president as top civil and military person. Indians taking advantage to damage national assets at low price and these terrorists are doing all time. Money speaks louder on an average one pipeline, or railway or power tower is blown. Indian embassy Afghanistan officials are always carrying dollars in briefcases and financing terrorist. Why they should have so many embassies there is question, and goddy goody with Tajik leaders and friends with cruel Abdul Rashid Dostam ( recent india's helping him) and embassy in Mazar sharrif is really spy center. Any way we are pakistan embassy people are too straigh forward and looking for peace, this uprightness is not good as straight trees are cut first. Its time to close Indian emmbassy in pakistan and afghanistan , with ultimumm to Usa and puppet karzai brother close it or that 500000 gallans of oil stops following to allied forces.
They are tricky people as Kissinger said. I find some troubling problems with our aces in cricket getting sick at match at culcutta. They should cook their food and not eat from hotel. Slow mild poison was eaten by many players so shoeb Akhar is sick he can not bowl as no strength and Indians make 600, when when our tank tank commander Shoeb Akhar is woth ammunition, finest tank but engine is not roaring as his tank is fed poisoned gas. Time to not play with India , in India at home is ok , as they can not put poison in food of our players.WE should not play in India at places like culcutta and Bombay due to bad water and air.
Good day.

"kayani and musharraf have committed treason - open and shut case......."

I can see the logic in Musharraf's case, but how can you accuse Kyani? Is there any military rule that will allow an officer to disobey his superior (the COAS at that)?

Gul Sahib:
The case that you and Ahmed Qureshi make, do you have any solid proof of this? I mean other than speculation, even if quite plausible?

I'll admit that I can't say that what you are stating is definitely not true. However, the aspirations of the civil society have been building up for quite some time. Certainly you cannot expect such a groundswell of public opinion to be set aside, voluntarily, in one swoop because an argument, without clear proof, is made that the very existence of Pakistan is at stake.

Do the Pakistanis on Chowk deserve half a chance that will allow them to honestly consider the case that you have put forth?

The references that you cite may indicate the wishes of some think tanks. They do not prove that there is, in fact, a plan afoot to dismember Pakistan.

Viqran,
See my post at #17.
I hope this is enough.
Just google Brookings, Stimston,Rand, US War College and Janes to get a few inputs.
Intelligence collects information from diverse sources and then filters it up. These filtered conclusins are then matched with the inputs from various embassies, foreign office and other sources. Its only when the information is sufficiently presumed to be correct, that military hypotheses are framed.
Ahmed Qureshi's article reads like a conspiracy theory. Something like Sidney Sheldon.
As for me, I have researched. I do at some level share these perceptions. The levels vary between most likely to most dangerous.
Cheerios