An Insight Into Pakistan Army and Musharraf

#96 Posted by mohar11,

I think one guy got a posthumous Nishan-e-Haider though .. after pressure from the family.

And yes the dude who did this took over the country, but it isn't over till the fat lady sings, right?

Re: # 94

Is lying smart? It might have worked once or twice,
but then Indian learned.
Bhutto was just a lyer, lying to his people, to
Indians, to Indira Gandhi.

well, the fat lady is already dead with heart-attack, she ain't singing... :)

There is nothing you can do the dude... I mean - can you court-marshall him, convict and punish?

While we talk of war, has anyone seen a soldier fried to a crisp inside a burnt out tank?

Re: # 94

"Why is our victory sore? It turned sore in Simla; when a civillian prime minister lost on the negotiating table what had been won on the battlefield. Kudos to your Bhutto for outsmarting Indira."

Here in your statement lies the Indian dilemma of a "neutral" victory. Today, 36 years later after the war the question in Indian mind still lurks "why the hell did we fight that war for?". Now that when war hysteria is gone the Hindu mind questions what objective did it achieve through that war?

Before 1971 Pakistan was an unmanegeable twin entity; what Indian invasion at the end achieved for Pakistan was that it turned it into two separate but manageable parts instead. At the end of the day, despite a shamful military defeat and surrender the will to fight in Pakistani nation is more; Pakistan's army is stronger; has more deadly weapons; and strategically more entrenched and less stretched. From Hindu persepctive the Indian invasion in fact has done Pakistan an incredible favor that Pakistan could have never had mustered on its own.

It is this fact in hindsight that makes Hindu a sore victor. India failed to achieve any of its objectives in the war despite a spectacular outcome in their "1000 year of history (as Indira put it)".

From Pakistani perspective whether India is a sore victor or a "neutral victor" it does not matter. Pakistan's objective that it strives to achieve thru animosity with India i.e. the freedom of Kashmir and thus finishing the last chapter in the book of Partition, will remain unchanged. Until then all so called wars are mere battles towards final victory. You win some you lose some. You lose an inch to gain two until the war is over.

"Siachin is a no-mans land since 1948 and both shimla nd tashkent treaties ratify that. International laws do not apply in no-mans land. If Pakistan charges a chemical, bilogical or tactical nuclear attack on Indian posts in Siachin it won't be violating any international law."

If it launches an attack by WMD without provocation, it would actually be contrary to international law. Secondly, when you initiate a WMD attack, international support swings to the victim, not to the perpetrater. Especially the case when it is a "cold" attack.

" After this attack is done there are two possibilities through which India would react. One, it would suck up the attack because it was done on soldiers who were occupying a territory violating internationally mediated treaties in the first place"


WISHFUL THINKING.

"or, Second it would retaliate against Pakistan miliatrily. But since any attack on Pakistan would be an attack on the sovereign land on Pakistan, the later would be justified in retaliating in kind."

"Justification" becomes irrelevant in war. You are applying Operation Gibralter thinking..and you know what happened then. Yes, India will retaliate and Pakistan will retaliate so you are talking about a proper war.

" A pointless but short war would ensue, which would have to be stopped by international pressure. The net result of the whole exercise would be two fold:

1. Siachin will be rid of Indian presence and India would not get the same opportunity again to sneak up into this territory under cover of darkness.

2. It will re-strengthen the disputed status of Kashmir and the region."

Well, this is exactly the thinking that was applied on Kargil. Actually, the opposite will happen. International pressire will be on the initiater to go back to status quo. The Kashmir issue will certainly get attention as a sourse of instability and therefore lead to reinforcement of status quo as solution.


Urstruly, let me honest...the Punjabi Musulmaan is by and large a converted Gujjar, Jaat or Arain...a stock of people that make good NCOs and at best good Captains and Majors. But, you are not suited to strategic thinking. If anything, the tragedy of Pakistan is that it allowed power to flow to people who were better off doing farming and soldiering rather than generaling and politicking. You should either have let us highborn Khatris and Brahmins to rule you..or if we were unacceptable, let the high born Ashrafs to do the needful. Why take on tasks that you were not meant to be doing in the first place? :) Your strategic thinking has been battered against the facts of histroy for a long time..why not go for out of the box solutions?

Re: # 98

Bhutto was too smart for his own good...:) he should have used the chance to cut paki military to size and then he rule pakiland un-challenged, in the process establishing civilian rule and power in pakiland... it would have been win-win for him and the country...

Instead, he lied thru his a##, played futile games, landed himself in the noose... what a loser!!

Post 101: Yes, goes to show that even us highborn Aulads of Chanakya sometimes make mistakes in strategic thinking :) I would not argue with the thrust of your arguement..there is a strong element of truth in it..but what you underestimate is the Indian fear of fighting a two front war (three front if China got involved). That was a real fear and justified if you look at the Chicken Neck sector that connects India to the rest of its north eastern states. So, elmiation of that threat was a strategic imperative. The "thousand year war" is the bakwas of a politician..the real issue is Kashmir where we are both in standby mode. ;)

Re: # 102

We Muslims do not believe in the notion that mental faculties are based on our caste or accident of birth. It is a divine gift which He bestows upon whoever He deems fit.

But if it is of any cosolation let me assure you that I am neither a Jutt nor a Gujjar. I am a Suriyavanshi Rajput, the highest of the hisghest caste, the descendent of the Sun God, Sooriya, I am the current incarnation of my great great grandfather Lord Ram of Ayudhia who happened to be a Hindu god and the greatest king ever. I am also descendent of prophets of God. I am from the family of Prophet Adam (pbuh).

Re: # 104

That's called the law of unintended consequences... happens in many such situations... which is what has happened in soviet war in afganistan... US won but it led to unforeseen situations with taliban and what not...

There isn't much you can do about that... :)

"We Muslims do not believe in the notion that mental faculties are based on our caste or accident of birth. It is a divine gift which He bestows upon whoever He deems fit. "

We believe that too. We just believe that the divine gifts tend be distributed with some amount of stinginess when it comes to Jatts and Gujjars ;)

"But if it is of any cosolation let me assure you that I am neither a Jutt nor a Gujjar. I am a Suriyavanshi Rajput, the highest of the hisghest caste, the descendent of the Sun God, Sooriya, I am the current incarnation of my great great grandfather Lord Ram of Ayudhia who happened to be a Hindu god and the greatest king ever. I am also descendent of prophets of God. I am from the family of Prophet Adam (pbuh). "

I know that you are a Suryavanshi Rajput. But that is not the highest caste; and it is certainly not the caste of Lord Ram of Ayodhya. BTW, all human beings are supposedly decended from Prophet Adam (whom we refer to as Manu).

Re: # 104

The chicken neck threat never existed. It was created later after 1971 to misguide Indian public. In East Pakistan until the March 1971 the strength of troops was never over 25,000 with an airforce of 16 sabre fighters and probably two herculese bombers. If India felt threatened withis force then what can one say, except "chickens". The maxumim troop build up in EP ever was close to 50K which only happened until June 1971 when an Indian plane was hijacked by some dubious characters and taking adavantage of that incident India barred an air corridor between to Paks. The 28K additional Pakistanis who were taken as POW later were memebers of police, civil service, and ordinary civilians. Even with this jsutification 1971 was a pointless war and India would have been better off by not interferring in EP. Now that everyone is wise after the fact, this turns out to be a truth.

Stuka: I think as an honorary Pakistani you need to shake off this "casteist" thinking. I happen to be a gujjar, and think there is a lot you need to learn about gujjars, so let me help by repeating what I once wrote on chowk: :-)

It is not for nothing that there are so many places in India and Pakistan named after gujjars - the gurjara-prathihara's, e.g., fought off the invading arab army led by Muhammed Bin Qasim, forcing the arabs to go north rather than go east. The gujjars fought off Mahmud of Ghazni from the north, and the gurjara kingdom fell to the turkish invasions from the north only after they were attacked by the Rashtrakutas from the south and east in deccan. The gujjars (under Gujjar Singh) fought of Ahmed Shah Abdali and saved Lahore. The gujjars were at the forefront in fighting the brits in 1857 (at meerut), and lost their lands only after the brits declared them a "mutinous tribe". Gujjars have been at the forefront from both the Indian and the Pakistani sides - the first Nishah-e-Haider (highest Pakistani military award for gallantry) was awarded to a gujjar (a friend of my father), as was the man who gave Pakistan its name. The only major Indian city every captured by the Pakistan army, Khem Karan, was by a brigade led by a gujjar (this brigade also captured the indian c-in-c's Cariappa's son). On the Indian side, I believe a gujjar sikh officer had a popular movie made on his exploits. Gujjars dont overthrow the Constitution, not doubt. If it wasnt for the gujjars, the arabs, the turks and the afghans would have walked all over brahmins and whatnots in india, and east india company bahadur may well have continued ruling india after 1857.

But before you start doing any "goostaakhi" on this fine tribe of people, think of the above. :-)

Re: # 105

Urstruly,

Just curious, assuming you are not joking, how do
you know that you are descendent of a suryavanshi rajput? Did your folks keep records, pass the
word to the next generation? How was the
information kept alive and why did they even bother?

Re: # 109

Tahmadji,

I understand, city of Gujrat and Gujranwala in
Pakistan deriver their names from Gujjars.
The Injun state of Gujrat is derived from this
tribe. So that makes Modi and you same same,
Gujar Gujar!

Re: # 106

Mohar, you retarded scheduled cast your ignorance knows no bounds but that’s okay you can keep coming back for a verbal lashing. Again you have no concept of military history, battle logistics, geo-political realities of the world all you know is you are special because you are a Hindu (Most retards are considered special people) from an impoverish country on the road to acquiring regional status while millions of Indians suffer in poverty and the hand full go to IIT harping the song that all is well in Bharat Mata and we are secular.

When Argentina attacked the Falklands or Malvinas as they called it the distance between Argentina’s main land and Falkland’s was such that the air time over battle area limited to 15 minutes hence degrading the air cover over Argentina’s ground forces on the island. After the sinking of Argentina’s battle ship of Second World War vintage “BELGRANO” the navy retreated to the ports unable to keep naval supply lines open from home base to the island this was due to the carrier based Harriers of RAF.

The Argentina’s armed forces fought valiantly but the end it was inevitable they surrendered because war is the means to an end if the end is unattainable then fighting for medals and glory is madness. In the process they were able to expose the lethality of exorcist anti-shipping missile and gave and industrial nation Britain a bloody nose.

Japan is the only one with the Banzai tradition and Bushido code that’s no longer in vogue either.

There are many examples in the annals of warfare where logistics and not heroism defines the outcome of the war it’s not the bravery of the opposing forces but the distance from home base is what defines the final outcome so India need not feel special bout 1971 war.

Logistics was the main reason why US army halted their advance towards Baghdad in 2003 so that supply trucks can catch up with the forward troops it’s how armies operate and without logistics you perish like the Germans did in the frigid snows of Stalingrad.

If winning the hearts and minds was so simple than America would have done that in Vietnam and Iraq and Soviet Union in Afghanistan and India in Kashmir. East Pakistan was a lost a cause that Indian Hindus needed to wash off there inferiority complex but apparently it did not work because its alive and kicking in the pathetic Mohars of India.

As far as being Muslims and sharing same religion well same applies to you too you are all Hindus why do get not get along across the northern and southern divide in India, why do you kill your fellow scheduled classes or Adivassi tribal people? Why is Nepal a Hindu kingdom cannot make peace among it’s Hindu citizens they kill each other in the name of Mao. What happened to the most peaceful religion in the world?

As far as military defeats Indians forget how China whipped their behinds in 1962 that’s what happens when you fight someone your own size that’s when the real test comes. Pakistan is a small country but we still give you the run for the money.

You mentioned naked bigotry against Hindus in my statement I was merely pointing towards historical facts. The Hindu oppression of minorities in India is well documented internationally. To give an excerpt of an international investigation account of Muslim genocide in Gujarat in 2002:
Here are some of these stories as told verbatim during various investigation :

Kulsum Bibi told the National Human Rights Commission panel: "The mob started chasing us with burning tires after we were forced to leave Gangotri society [a housing colony]. We saw them strip 16-year-old Mehrunissa. They were (Hindu men) stripping themselves and beckoning to the girls. Then they raped them right there on the road. We saw a girl's vagina being slit open. Then they [the bodies] were burned."

Sabah: "We ran in different directions and hid in the field. But the mob found some of us and started attacking? I recognized two people from my village Gano Baria and Sunil ? pulling away my daughter. She screamed, telling the men to get off her and leave her alone. The screams and cries of Ruqayya, Suhana, Shabana, begging for their izzat could clearly be heard. I could do nothing to help my daughter from being assaulted sexually and tortured to death."

Yasmin: A woman survivor from Panchmahal district said that "They cut off breasts of her (neighbour's) daughter, it is difficult to forget, it still swims in my vision. I have lost my mental peace."

Bilqis Yaqoob Rasoo case as investigated by Amnesty international Asia and Pacific wing: “She fled Randhikpur village in Gujarat, India, when it was attacked by right-wing Hindus on 28 February 2002. The attackers burned the mosque, and houses and crops belonging to Muslims in the village. They caught up with Bilqis and her family three days later. “Shouting “kill them” and “cut them up”. They gang-raped Bilqis, her mother, sisters, aunt and cousins in front of their family. Fourteen of her relatives were then killed. Bilqis saw an attacker kill her three-year-old daughter with a rock. She fell unconscious and was left for dead”.

A team of women activists from different countries like France, Germany, U.K., The Netherlands, Sri Lanka and India visited Gujarat and wrote a 244 pages report Threatened Existence- A Feminist Analysis of the Genocide in Gujarat which documented the cases of Hindu savagery.

I am sure Mohar will find a peverse reason to show that Muslims asked for it so Hindus felt it was their religious duty to punish the Muslims for miss-deeds of the past and present.

As far as past wars and conflicts are concerned 1948 Kashmir conflict ended up in cease fire. 1965 war was poorly planned by Pakistanis but it did end up in a stalemate even though Indian General Chaudhry had said on the eve of opening the battle front on Lahore that “I will have a peg of whiskey in Lahore Gym Khanna” in 24 hours such was the perceived intellect and physical capabilities of Indian army just because the foe is a small country do not underestimate it’s will to fight. On the day off cease fire Indians had not crossed the BRB canal after they had pitched everything they had from artillery to amour and air force but to no effect. It was Pakistani fortitude that held the defense line together and not Indian military benevolence.

Mohar you mentioned bodies of soldiers were left behind in the mountains of kargil. Well have you ever heard the term “black ops” these operations are conducted behind the enemy lines without showing your uniform or battle insignia its called irregular warfare or currently referred to as asymmetrical warfare now if you take your head out of your as& and read up on military history such operations have been conducted by all nations. US in Vietnam using “Air America” and recently India using Afghanistan to infiltrate its agents into Baluchistan to create unrest and low level anarchy to reach mile stones in its foreign and national defense policy. It is not a matter of right and wrong here because nobody expects India to confess its involvement in these murky dealings. Indian army soldiers fighting alongside “mUkhti Bahini” on East Pakistani soil pretending to be east Pakistanis before the start of actual war is well documented and their dead bodies did not get a military burial neither did India claim them to be theirs because it would expose their violation of an international border.

Therefore, in retrospect India has indulged in belligerent behavior when it suited them and cried WOLF when Pakistan paid them same in return. The former East Pakistan‘s swamps are home to many Indian army soldiers and officers lying in unmarked graves who were fighting under cover before the start of actual war in 1971.

Mohar you miss quoted a phrase by Bhutto that “We will eat grass for a thousand years but will built a nuclear bomb” not what how you said, “we will eat grass but fight Hindus for thousand years" Please put things in the right historical perspective lying will not make you the innocent party.

Don’t forget what Tamils did to your army in the late 1980’s when the Sikh infantry regiment landed via helicopters in a college field thinking that they would whip the supposedly weak Tamils well not only were the Sikhs annihilated the next few years cost Indian army dearly and they left as losers humbled by a small contingent of Tamil tigers vs. the mighty Indian army.

India would attack Pakistan in a heat beat today the only status quo are the Pakistani nukes so this facade of Indian passivity is hog wash. East Pakistan was a different geo-political anomaly If it’s so simple to attack and win a battle with Pakistan India would do it but they know better except citizens like Mohar who are to ignorant to understand this and harp about their perceived victories in all the other wars where the final outcome was a stalemate not due to benevolence of India but due to their sheer ineptitude to win the battles using their superior numbers. I suppose at the end of the day being big and huge does not matter it’s the will to fight and taking the battle to the final conclusion is what matters Indians have yet to show that they had a chance in Kargil what happened there? The bloody nose was enough to show them what lied ahead halted in the name of peace to hide their military weakness the then India army Chief mentioned that they were not militarily prepared to make the final thrust and the PAF was ever vigilant despite having been technologically downgraded due to defense embargos all they could do was shoot down a supersonic submarine hunter aircraft “ Atlantique” because IAF could not pick a dog fight with a PAF fighter.

Mohar if your retarded self cannot come with an intelligent reply than don’t write a 4 liner answer it just proves my point how stupid you are. A dispassionate account of events will open your ignorant mind to global events and politics which you remain oblivious to and teaching a ignorant man beyond a certain point is a waste of an effort since your primary intellectual breeding ground is R.S.S and Bajrang daal.