Media: The more things change...
Beena Sarwar November 30, 2007
#77 Posted by krashid1961 on December 5, 2007 6:49:29 pm
Let me first phrase the Pakistan resolution from wikipedia.
"No constitutional plan would be workable or acceptable to the Muslims unless geographical contiguous units are demarcated into regions which should be so constituted with such territorial readjustments as may be necessary. That the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in majority as in the North-Western and Eastern zones of India should be grouped to constitute independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign.[13]
Additionally, it stated:
That adequate, effective and mandatory safeguards shall be specifically provided in the constitution for minorities in the units and in the regions for the protection of their religious, cultural, economic, political, administrative and other rights of the minorities, with their consultation. Arrangements thus should be made for the security of Muslims where they were in a minority."
That was basically a loose confederation of states where rights of individual states will be protected. That was the basis of movement of "Sindhudesh", "Bangladesh", Pakhtunistan and Baluchistan.
In 1946 Cabinet mission plan proposed alternative to Two states in its plan. It was either take it or leave it for other party to take it. That was tried and was unsuccessful. And untimately two nation states were born. Pakistan and India.
In the beginning it was basically the survival of Pakistan and later American interest in the region which shaped the history.
Now. Is confederation an alternative. If we dissect closely all the current states (provinces) are dependent upon each other since a lot of development has happened with federation in mind. For energy resources Pakistan on its own is dependent on Sind and Baluchistan. For Port also on sind and Baluchistan. Fot water on NWFP, tribal areas and Kashmir.
The main issue is not to breakup Pakistan, but come up with equitable solution. If not it will continue to sow the seeds of breakup of Pakistan.
The independent parts will have some difficulty in survival. The main problem will be with Punjab, because of its land locked position. But Sind and Baluchistan will also not fare good nor will NWFP and Kashmiris will be in bad shape with no help avaiable. I don't think any option like that will be acceptable to even neighbours and foreign powers either.
But the proposal that provincial and regional leaders should take care of their constituency and Central Government take care of defense, foreign policy.
With more relax situation education and local economics can be left to provinces.
I don't think people in Sind and Punjab will be of the opinion of something like Bulleya is presenting.
I keep my opinion on NWFP and Baluchistan to myself, as I don't have enough information on politics in those regions.
"No constitutional plan would be workable or acceptable to the Muslims unless geographical contiguous units are demarcated into regions which should be so constituted with such territorial readjustments as may be necessary. That the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in majority as in the North-Western and Eastern zones of India should be grouped to constitute independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign.[13]
Additionally, it stated:
That adequate, effective and mandatory safeguards shall be specifically provided in the constitution for minorities in the units and in the regions for the protection of their religious, cultural, economic, political, administrative and other rights of the minorities, with their consultation. Arrangements thus should be made for the security of Muslims where they were in a minority."
That was basically a loose confederation of states where rights of individual states will be protected. That was the basis of movement of "Sindhudesh", "Bangladesh", Pakhtunistan and Baluchistan.
In 1946 Cabinet mission plan proposed alternative to Two states in its plan. It was either take it or leave it for other party to take it. That was tried and was unsuccessful. And untimately two nation states were born. Pakistan and India.
In the beginning it was basically the survival of Pakistan and later American interest in the region which shaped the history.
Now. Is confederation an alternative. If we dissect closely all the current states (provinces) are dependent upon each other since a lot of development has happened with federation in mind. For energy resources Pakistan on its own is dependent on Sind and Baluchistan. For Port also on sind and Baluchistan. Fot water on NWFP, tribal areas and Kashmir.
The main issue is not to breakup Pakistan, but come up with equitable solution. If not it will continue to sow the seeds of breakup of Pakistan.
The independent parts will have some difficulty in survival. The main problem will be with Punjab, because of its land locked position. But Sind and Baluchistan will also not fare good nor will NWFP and Kashmiris will be in bad shape with no help avaiable. I don't think any option like that will be acceptable to even neighbours and foreign powers either.
But the proposal that provincial and regional leaders should take care of their constituency and Central Government take care of defense, foreign policy.
With more relax situation education and local economics can be left to provinces.
I don't think people in Sind and Punjab will be of the opinion of something like Bulleya is presenting.
I keep my opinion on NWFP and Baluchistan to myself, as I don't have enough information on politics in those regions.
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#76 Posted by krashid1961 on December 5, 2007 6:23:13 pm
" 1946 Cabinet Mission to India
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
History of South Asia and History of India
Stone Age 70,000–3300 BCE
• Mehrgarh Culture • 7000–3300 BCE
Indus Valley Civilization 3300–1700 BCE
Late Harappan Culture 1700–1300 BCE
Vedic period 1500–500 BCE
Iron Age 1200–300 BCE
• Maha Janapadas • 700–300 BCE
• Magadha Empire • 545–320 BCE
• Maurya Empire • 321–184 BCE
Middle Kingdoms 230 BCE–1279 CE
• Satavahana Empire • 230 BCE–199 CE
• Kushan Empire • 60–240
• Gupta Empire •280–550
• Pala Empire • 750–1174
• Chola Empire • 250 BCE–1070
Islamic Sultanates 1206–1596
• Delhi Sultanate • 1206–1526
• Deccan Sultanates • 1490–1596
Hoysala Empire 1040–1346
Kakatiya Empire 1083–1323
Vijayanagara Empire 1336–1565
Mughal Empire 1526–1857
Maratha Empire 1674–1818
Sikh Confederacy 1716–1849
British India 1858–1947
Modern States 1947 onwards
Nation histories
Bangladesh • Bhutan • Republic of India
Maldives • Nepal • Pakistan • Sri Lanka
Regional histories
Bengal • Himachal Pradesh • Orissa
Pakistani Regions • North India • South India • Tibet
Specialised histories
Coinage• Dynasties • Economy • Indology • Language • Literature
Maritime • Military • Science and Technology • Timeline
This box: view • talk • edit
The British Cabinet Mission of 1946 to India aimed to discuss and finalize plans for the transfer of power from the British Raj to Indian leadership, providing India with independence under Dominion status in the Commonwealth of Nations. Formulated at the initiative of Clement Attlee, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, the mission consisted of Lord Pethick-Lawrence, the Secretary of State for India, Sir Stafford Cripps, President of the Board of Trade, and A. V. Alexander, the First Lord of the Admiralty. It was also supplemented by Lord Wavell, the Viceroy of India at the time.
Contents [hide]
1 Purpose and proposals
1.1 Plan of May 16
1.2 Plan of June 16
2 Reactions and acceptance
3 Formation of a government
4 Coalition and breakdown
5 See also
6 Notes
[edit] Purpose and proposals
The Mission purpose was:
Hold preparatory discussions with elected representatives of British India and the Indian states in order to secure agreement as to the method of framing the constitution.
Setting up of a constitution body.
Setting up an Executive Council with the support of the main Indian parties. The mission arrived on March 24, 1946.
The Mission held talks with the representatives of the Indian National Congress and the All India Muslim League, the two largest political parties in the Constituent Assembly of India. After initial dialogue, the Mission proposed two plans over the composition of the new government:
[edit] Plan of May 16
Promulgated on May 16, 1946, the plan to create a united dominion of India as a loose confederation of provinces came to be known by its date of announcement:
A united Dominion of India would be given independence.
Muslim-majority provinces would be grouped - Baluchistan, Sind, Punjab and NWFP would form one group, and Bengal and Assam would form another (Assam was a Hindu-majority province, while both Punjab and Bengal consisted of large populations of Hindus and Sikhs).
Hindu-majority provinces in central and southern India would form another group.
The Central government would be empowered to run foreign affairs, defence and communications, while the rest of powers and responsibility would belong to the provinces, coordinated by groups.
[edit] Plan of June 16
An alternative plan proposed on June 16, 1946 was to arrange for India to be divided into Hindu-majority India and a Muslim-majority Pakistan. The princely states of India would be permitted to accede to either dominion or attain independence.
[edit] Reactions and acceptance
The approval of the plans would determine the composition of the new government. The Congress Working Committee had initially approved the plan. However, on 10 July, Jawaharlal held a press conference in Bombay declaring that the Congress had agreed only to participate in the Constituent Assembly and regards itself free to change or modify the Cabinet Mission Plan as it thought best."[1] While the Congress ruled out the June 16 plan - seeing it as the blatant division of India into small states - it also hesitated to accept the May 16 plan, which it saw as caving in to communal division by accepting the grouping of provinces on a communal basis - setting the stage for regional and religious separatism. It objected strongly to the inclusion of Assam, a Hindu-majority province with the Muslim-majority Bengal province which was to form the third group. It also objected to the inclusion of the Northwest Frontier Province, which was a Congress-administered province and supportive of Indian unity, into a group dominated by League-ruled provinces. The Congress was certain that the League would use the groupings as a solid platform for to achieve a Muslim state - attributed by Jinnah's demand that the groups have the option of secession in five years. The plan's strongest opponent was Mohandas Gandhi, the principal Indian leader.
The Muslim League gave its approval to the plan only under duress, as it was assured that the Congress also had accepted the scheme and the Plan would be the basis of the future constitution of India. Jinnah, in his speech to the League Council, clearly stated that he recommended acceptance only because nothing better could be obtained. However, on declaration from the Congress President that the Congress could change the scheme through its majority in the Constituent Assembly, this meant that the minorities would be placed at the mercy of the majority. The Muslim League Council met at Bombay on 27 July. "Mr. Jinnah in his opening speech reiterated the demand for Pakistan as the only course left open to the Muslim League. After three days' discussion, the Council passed a resolution rejecting the Cabinet Mission Plan. It also decided to resort to direct action for the achievement of Pakistan."[1]
However, the plan had its advocates. Maulana Azad, a nationalist Muslim leader said that while groupings was a major concession to the theme of religious separatism, it would also force the League to accept a framework for a united India. While assuring minority rights and participation, an independent India would be free to do away eventually with the groupings arrangement. While Gandhi criticized the Maulana's views for ignoring practical considerations and League ambitions, other senior Indian leaders like Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel and Jawaharlal Nehru were aware that if the Congress did not approve either plan, the entire government would be transferred to the League, which had approved both. Expressing strong reservations, the Congress approved the May 16 plan for a loose union of India.
[edit] Formation of a government
The Viceroy began organizing the transfer of power to a Congress-League coalition. But League president Muhammad Ali Jinnah denounced the hesitant and conditional approval of the Congress and rescinded League approval of both plans. Thus Congress leaders entered the newly styled Viceroy's Executive Council: Jawaharlal Nehru became the head - vice president in title, but possessing the executive authority. Vallabhbhai Patel became the Home member - responsible for internal security and government agencies. Congress-led governments were formed in most provinces - including in the NWFP, in Punjab (a coalition with the Shiromani Akali Dal and the Unionist Muslim League). The League led governments in Bengal and Sind. The Constituent Assembly was instructed to begin work to write a new constitution for India.
[edit] Coalition and breakdown
Jinnah and the League condemned the new government, and vowed to agitate for Pakistan by any means possible. Disorder arose in Punjab and Bengal, including the cities of Delhi, Bombay and Calcutta. On the League-organized Direct Action Day, over 5,000 people were killed across India, and Hindu, Sikh and Muslim mobs began clashing routinely. Viceroy Wavell stalled the Central government's efforts to stop the disorder, and the provinces were instructed to leave this to the governors, who did not undertake any major action. To end the disorder and rising bloodshed, Wavell encouraged Nehru to ask the League to enter the government. While Patel and most Congress leaders were opposed to conceding to a party that was organizing disorder, Nehru conceded in hope of preserving communal peace.
League leaders entered the council under the leadership of Liaquat Ali Khan, the future first Prime Minister of Pakistan who became the finance minister. But the council did not function in harmony - separate meetings were held by League ministers, and both parties vetoed the major initiatives proposed by the other, highlighting their ideological differences and political antagonism. At the arrival of the new (and proclaimed the last) viceroy, Lord Mountbatten in early 1947, Congress leaders expressed the view that the coalition was unworkable. This led to the eventual proposal, and acceptance of the partition of India."
This in shorrt is the cabinet mission plan and I will discuss on next board what it means.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
History of South Asia and History of India
Stone Age 70,000–3300 BCE
• Mehrgarh Culture • 7000–3300 BCE
Indus Valley Civilization 3300–1700 BCE
Late Harappan Culture 1700–1300 BCE
Vedic period 1500–500 BCE
Iron Age 1200–300 BCE
• Maha Janapadas • 700–300 BCE
• Magadha Empire • 545–320 BCE
• Maurya Empire • 321–184 BCE
Middle Kingdoms 230 BCE–1279 CE
• Satavahana Empire • 230 BCE–199 CE
• Kushan Empire • 60–240
• Gupta Empire •280–550
• Pala Empire • 750–1174
• Chola Empire • 250 BCE–1070
Islamic Sultanates 1206–1596
• Delhi Sultanate • 1206–1526
• Deccan Sultanates • 1490–1596
Hoysala Empire 1040–1346
Kakatiya Empire 1083–1323
Vijayanagara Empire 1336–1565
Mughal Empire 1526–1857
Maratha Empire 1674–1818
Sikh Confederacy 1716–1849
British India 1858–1947
Modern States 1947 onwards
Nation histories
Bangladesh • Bhutan • Republic of India
Maldives • Nepal • Pakistan • Sri Lanka
Regional histories
Bengal • Himachal Pradesh • Orissa
Pakistani Regions • North India • South India • Tibet
Specialised histories
Coinage• Dynasties • Economy • Indology • Language • Literature
Maritime • Military • Science and Technology • Timeline
This box: view • talk • edit
The British Cabinet Mission of 1946 to India aimed to discuss and finalize plans for the transfer of power from the British Raj to Indian leadership, providing India with independence under Dominion status in the Commonwealth of Nations. Formulated at the initiative of Clement Attlee, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, the mission consisted of Lord Pethick-Lawrence, the Secretary of State for India, Sir Stafford Cripps, President of the Board of Trade, and A. V. Alexander, the First Lord of the Admiralty. It was also supplemented by Lord Wavell, the Viceroy of India at the time.
Contents [hide]
1 Purpose and proposals
1.1 Plan of May 16
1.2 Plan of June 16
2 Reactions and acceptance
3 Formation of a government
4 Coalition and breakdown
5 See also
6 Notes
[edit] Purpose and proposals
The Mission purpose was:
Hold preparatory discussions with elected representatives of British India and the Indian states in order to secure agreement as to the method of framing the constitution.
Setting up of a constitution body.
Setting up an Executive Council with the support of the main Indian parties. The mission arrived on March 24, 1946.
The Mission held talks with the representatives of the Indian National Congress and the All India Muslim League, the two largest political parties in the Constituent Assembly of India. After initial dialogue, the Mission proposed two plans over the composition of the new government:
[edit] Plan of May 16
Promulgated on May 16, 1946, the plan to create a united dominion of India as a loose confederation of provinces came to be known by its date of announcement:
A united Dominion of India would be given independence.
Muslim-majority provinces would be grouped - Baluchistan, Sind, Punjab and NWFP would form one group, and Bengal and Assam would form another (Assam was a Hindu-majority province, while both Punjab and Bengal consisted of large populations of Hindus and Sikhs).
Hindu-majority provinces in central and southern India would form another group.
The Central government would be empowered to run foreign affairs, defence and communications, while the rest of powers and responsibility would belong to the provinces, coordinated by groups.
[edit] Plan of June 16
An alternative plan proposed on June 16, 1946 was to arrange for India to be divided into Hindu-majority India and a Muslim-majority Pakistan. The princely states of India would be permitted to accede to either dominion or attain independence.
[edit] Reactions and acceptance
The approval of the plans would determine the composition of the new government. The Congress Working Committee had initially approved the plan. However, on 10 July, Jawaharlal held a press conference in Bombay declaring that the Congress had agreed only to participate in the Constituent Assembly and regards itself free to change or modify the Cabinet Mission Plan as it thought best."[1] While the Congress ruled out the June 16 plan - seeing it as the blatant division of India into small states - it also hesitated to accept the May 16 plan, which it saw as caving in to communal division by accepting the grouping of provinces on a communal basis - setting the stage for regional and religious separatism. It objected strongly to the inclusion of Assam, a Hindu-majority province with the Muslim-majority Bengal province which was to form the third group. It also objected to the inclusion of the Northwest Frontier Province, which was a Congress-administered province and supportive of Indian unity, into a group dominated by League-ruled provinces. The Congress was certain that the League would use the groupings as a solid platform for to achieve a Muslim state - attributed by Jinnah's demand that the groups have the option of secession in five years. The plan's strongest opponent was Mohandas Gandhi, the principal Indian leader.
The Muslim League gave its approval to the plan only under duress, as it was assured that the Congress also had accepted the scheme and the Plan would be the basis of the future constitution of India. Jinnah, in his speech to the League Council, clearly stated that he recommended acceptance only because nothing better could be obtained. However, on declaration from the Congress President that the Congress could change the scheme through its majority in the Constituent Assembly, this meant that the minorities would be placed at the mercy of the majority. The Muslim League Council met at Bombay on 27 July. "Mr. Jinnah in his opening speech reiterated the demand for Pakistan as the only course left open to the Muslim League. After three days' discussion, the Council passed a resolution rejecting the Cabinet Mission Plan. It also decided to resort to direct action for the achievement of Pakistan."[1]
However, the plan had its advocates. Maulana Azad, a nationalist Muslim leader said that while groupings was a major concession to the theme of religious separatism, it would also force the League to accept a framework for a united India. While assuring minority rights and participation, an independent India would be free to do away eventually with the groupings arrangement. While Gandhi criticized the Maulana's views for ignoring practical considerations and League ambitions, other senior Indian leaders like Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel and Jawaharlal Nehru were aware that if the Congress did not approve either plan, the entire government would be transferred to the League, which had approved both. Expressing strong reservations, the Congress approved the May 16 plan for a loose union of India.
[edit] Formation of a government
The Viceroy began organizing the transfer of power to a Congress-League coalition. But League president Muhammad Ali Jinnah denounced the hesitant and conditional approval of the Congress and rescinded League approval of both plans. Thus Congress leaders entered the newly styled Viceroy's Executive Council: Jawaharlal Nehru became the head - vice president in title, but possessing the executive authority. Vallabhbhai Patel became the Home member - responsible for internal security and government agencies. Congress-led governments were formed in most provinces - including in the NWFP, in Punjab (a coalition with the Shiromani Akali Dal and the Unionist Muslim League). The League led governments in Bengal and Sind. The Constituent Assembly was instructed to begin work to write a new constitution for India.
[edit] Coalition and breakdown
Jinnah and the League condemned the new government, and vowed to agitate for Pakistan by any means possible. Disorder arose in Punjab and Bengal, including the cities of Delhi, Bombay and Calcutta. On the League-organized Direct Action Day, over 5,000 people were killed across India, and Hindu, Sikh and Muslim mobs began clashing routinely. Viceroy Wavell stalled the Central government's efforts to stop the disorder, and the provinces were instructed to leave this to the governors, who did not undertake any major action. To end the disorder and rising bloodshed, Wavell encouraged Nehru to ask the League to enter the government. While Patel and most Congress leaders were opposed to conceding to a party that was organizing disorder, Nehru conceded in hope of preserving communal peace.
League leaders entered the council under the leadership of Liaquat Ali Khan, the future first Prime Minister of Pakistan who became the finance minister. But the council did not function in harmony - separate meetings were held by League ministers, and both parties vetoed the major initiatives proposed by the other, highlighting their ideological differences and political antagonism. At the arrival of the new (and proclaimed the last) viceroy, Lord Mountbatten in early 1947, Congress leaders expressed the view that the coalition was unworkable. This led to the eventual proposal, and acceptance of the partition of India."
This in shorrt is the cabinet mission plan and I will discuss on next board what it means.
#75 Posted by krashid1961 on December 5, 2007 6:13:39 pm
beenaSarwar:
I read your article with interest. Because of objectivity.
The case was based on assertion that, the GEO transmission are stopped from Dubai. Since transmission have already been started from Dubai therefore case was dismissed.
I read your article with interest. Because of objectivity.
The case was based on assertion that, the GEO transmission are stopped from Dubai. Since transmission have already been started from Dubai therefore case was dismissed.
#74 Posted by beenasarwar on December 5, 2007 10:48:21 am
Re: Geo's case before the Sindh High Court to restore at least the non-news channels, first the Deputy Attorney General on Nov 27 claimed that the government had not stopped the channels. Then, after inordinately delaying the case, the learned bench dismissed the petition as non-maintainable under the PCO. Was anyone surprised?
#73 Posted by mohar11 on December 5, 2007 9:03:58 am
But then since MAJ(PUBH) was in fact in favor of balkanization - pakis should practice what their man preached... pakis should go for balkanization for their land...
Any case - unity is not really working for them... so why not go separate ways?
Any case - unity is not really working for them... so why not go separate ways?
#72 Posted by mohar11 on December 5, 2007 8:49:28 am
Re: # 69
[...that in the 5000 year (?) history of south asia...]
For most of the 5000 years - there was no cell phone or internet - people across lands didn't talk to each other that much...
History is past - the future is now... things worked very differently in past, but they would work differently from now... Choice is yours... don't blame history for the wrong choice you have made...
[...that in the 5000 year (?) history of south asia...]
For most of the 5000 years - there was no cell phone or internet - people across lands didn't talk to each other that much...
History is past - the future is now... things worked very differently in past, but they would work differently from now... Choice is yours... don't blame history for the wrong choice you have made...
#71 Posted by shishapa on December 5, 2007 8:33:03 am
Re: # 69
And how low would you go? Can I have my own village
or mohalla as my country?
And how low would you go? Can I have my own village
or mohalla as my country?
#70 Posted by mohar11 on December 5, 2007 8:27:29 am
Re: # 67 dada
According to pakis - Mukti bahini had already done the hard work - indian army just finished the job... :)
According to pakis - Mukti bahini had already done the hard work - indian army just finished the job... :)
#69 Posted by bulleya on December 5, 2007 7:54:48 am
majumdar #67: "And what happens to MAJ (pbuh) dream of Muslim nationalism???"
...good question......actually if one studies jinnah, factually, one realizes that his dream was actually balkanization of india, based on the cabinet mission plan....he wanted a relatively autonomous muslim majority area, within a united india......the best solution for south asia in my opinion.....
do keep in mind that in the 5000 year (?) history of south asia, it has only been one united country/empire for roughly 200 to 300 years (under ashoka and brits)......
viqarm# "The 64 million dollar question is whether it can be done in a peaceful way...."
yes, this is very true....will it be like yugoslavia (violent) or czechoslavakia (peaceful)........if it is under military rule, it will be violent......if it is under civilian rule, perhaps not so violent......
in any case, i think pakistan should be a union of autonomous provinces.....much like uae.....in fact, all of south asia should be like that.......
why people in lahore want quetta to be a part of one country and vice-versa is beyond me......let those who want sharia have it in their own land, and those who want secularism have it in their land......one cannot drink in sharjah, can in dubai, kind of can in abu dhabi, and can openly in fujeira (?), and everyone gets along..
...good question......actually if one studies jinnah, factually, one realizes that his dream was actually balkanization of india, based on the cabinet mission plan....he wanted a relatively autonomous muslim majority area, within a united india......the best solution for south asia in my opinion.....
do keep in mind that in the 5000 year (?) history of south asia, it has only been one united country/empire for roughly 200 to 300 years (under ashoka and brits)......
viqarm# "The 64 million dollar question is whether it can be done in a peaceful way...."
yes, this is very true....will it be like yugoslavia (violent) or czechoslavakia (peaceful)........if it is under military rule, it will be violent......if it is under civilian rule, perhaps not so violent......
in any case, i think pakistan should be a union of autonomous provinces.....much like uae.....in fact, all of south asia should be like that.......
why people in lahore want quetta to be a part of one country and vice-versa is beyond me......let those who want sharia have it in their own land, and those who want secularism have it in their land......one cannot drink in sharjah, can in dubai, kind of can in abu dhabi, and can openly in fujeira (?), and everyone gets along..
#68 Posted by viqarm on December 5, 2007 12:14:48 am
Re: # 63
"....having said that, i am starting to realize that, perhaps, balkanization may actually be something good for pakistan (and for countries, which have diverse cultures and populations)......take uae as an example....."
Romair Sahib,
The 64 million dollar question is whether it can be done in a peaceful way. I agree that if it is not possible to get along - and there are plenty of indications of that - then it is better to peacefully separate.
Who knows, with maturity in some distant future, we might be able to come together again.
"....having said that, i am starting to realize that, perhaps, balkanization may actually be something good for pakistan (and for countries, which have diverse cultures and populations)......take uae as an example....."
Romair Sahib,
The 64 million dollar question is whether it can be done in a peaceful way. I agree that if it is not possible to get along - and there are plenty of indications of that - then it is better to peacefully separate.
Who knows, with maturity in some distant future, we might be able to come together again.
#67 Posted by majumdar on December 4, 2007 7:41:25 pm
Mohar bhai,
(nobody believed rice-eating, dark, short bongs would ever beat back martial race west-pakis - )
And they were proved right in their beliefs. The martial race Pakis were beaten not by "rice-eating, dark, short bongs" but by paratha chomping turban wearing (fellow) Punjoos!!!
Agree with you 200% on #64.
Romair sahib,
(balkanization may actually be something good for pakistan)
And what happens to MAJ (pbuh) dream of Muslim nationalism???
Regards
(nobody believed rice-eating, dark, short bongs would ever beat back martial race west-pakis - )
And they were proved right in their beliefs. The martial race Pakis were beaten not by "rice-eating, dark, short bongs" but by paratha chomping turban wearing (fellow) Punjoos!!!
Agree with you 200% on #64.
Romair sahib,
(balkanization may actually be something good for pakistan)
And what happens to MAJ (pbuh) dream of Muslim nationalism???
Regards
#66 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on December 4, 2007 6:25:33 pm
Hamidumdum Sahib,
Do you think that Bezamir could defeat Aitzaz if there were elections for PPP Chairperson?
Do you think that Bezamir could defeat Aitzaz if there were elections for PPP Chairperson?
#65 Posted by shishapa on December 4, 2007 8:00:49 am
Re: # 64
Mohar,
I do not think Pakistanis are capable of understanding this concepet of inclusion and
integration. They are too drunk on religion.
Another lot like them is Kashmir Muslims. Although
after numerous thappads by Indians, may be they
are seeing the light, nasha is going down bit by
bit, it appears, though you never know how long
the treatment is needed.
Mohar,
I do not think Pakistanis are capable of understanding this concepet of inclusion and
integration. They are too drunk on religion.
Another lot like them is Kashmir Muslims. Although
after numerous thappads by Indians, may be they
are seeing the light, nasha is going down bit by
bit, it appears, though you never know how long
the treatment is needed.
#64 Posted by mohar11 on December 4, 2007 7:42:32 am
Re: # 63 romair
[..i have never figured out why people want to be a part of giant unnaturally united countries...]
Well, for one, there is safety and benefit of numbers... but only if all the groups are willing to work together...
the problem in pakiland is not the size of the country, the problem is the ideology... you pakis adopted ideology of exclusion and isolation, instead of inclusion and integration... the result is obvious...
It may be too late already to repair the damage... too much blood and water has gone down the drain...
[..i have never figured out why people want to be a part of giant unnaturally united countries...]
Well, for one, there is safety and benefit of numbers... but only if all the groups are willing to work together...
the problem in pakiland is not the size of the country, the problem is the ideology... you pakis adopted ideology of exclusion and isolation, instead of inclusion and integration... the result is obvious...
It may be too late already to repair the damage... too much blood and water has gone down the drain...
#63 Posted by bulleya on December 4, 2007 7:17:03 am
majumdar #: "Pakistan is facing serious turmoil no doubt but it is nowhere near breaking up as it was in 1971..."
...perhaps not as near......but one never knows......i have always felt that balkanization and not talibanization is ther real issue for pakistan......
....having said that, i am starting to realize that, perhaps, balkanization may actually be something good for pakistan (and for countries, which have diverse cultures and populations)......take uae as an example.....
pakistan should be a federation of autonomous states, within a state, like uae.....in fact, all of south asia should be like that, if you ask me......
i have never figured out why people want to be a part of giant unnaturally united countries....
...perhaps not as near......but one never knows......i have always felt that balkanization and not talibanization is ther real issue for pakistan......
....having said that, i am starting to realize that, perhaps, balkanization may actually be something good for pakistan (and for countries, which have diverse cultures and populations)......take uae as an example.....
pakistan should be a federation of autonomous states, within a state, like uae.....in fact, all of south asia should be like that, if you ask me......
i have never figured out why people want to be a part of giant unnaturally united countries....
#62 Posted by mohar11 on December 4, 2007 7:07:09 am
Re: # 61
Dada - you are using the benefit of the hindsight on 1971 episode... Before it happened, nobody believed it would happen - nobody believed rice-eating, dark, short bongs would ever beat back martial race west-pakis - the "geographical peculiarity" notwithstanding...
The theory of "geographical peculiarity" is an after-thought, commonly used by pakis to explain away their humiliating defeat and paper over the fact that they are basically surrender monkeys with no guts and no glory...
That said - of course, the current situation in pakiland is very different from 1971, but you never know what the consequence could be...
Dada - you are using the benefit of the hindsight on 1971 episode... Before it happened, nobody believed it would happen - nobody believed rice-eating, dark, short bongs would ever beat back martial race west-pakis - the "geographical peculiarity" notwithstanding...
The theory of "geographical peculiarity" is an after-thought, commonly used by pakis to explain away their humiliating defeat and paper over the fact that they are basically surrender monkeys with no guts and no glory...
That said - of course, the current situation in pakiland is very different from 1971, but you never know what the consequence could be...
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