Feminism Under Veil

Yaar, nature lover, why are you getting mad – fizool meiN!

I only put in one sentence what the vast majority of the readers here think of this writer based on this piece of crap we see here.

In fact, this piece is the worst kind of idiocy that I have seen on this site recently – and as you are well aware, this site gets quite a few of those namoonas!

Now, be fair – I only say that this piece appears to be a product of a wanna-be-but-can-never-be-equal-to-a-man-in-my-mazhab-so-might-as-well-as-make-a -virtue-out-of-mazbooree-and-pronounce-my-slavery-as-emancipation-and-pronounce- myself-a-feminist-if-only-in-my-dreams! That’s all!

Yet I never said that even the worst of the worst pieces of crap (like this piece) does not have its dumb-ass admirers.

By the way, how did YOU like this crappy piece?

If you like it, it’s cool! No big deal! The world is a large tent with a lot of specimens and it accommodates the various size brains wonderfully!

Microscopes, anyone?! Nature is wonderful – that’s why some people love it so much – now that’s a no-brainer!

BJKumar

All I can say is that you are an instigator and you are full of hate , anger, fake pride and prejudice.

Basically you and others like you on this board are suffering from deep inferiority complex and you have lost your identity and your roots.

I apologise if my words hurt you but please take my criticism in a positive manner and I hope you will do some soul searching and self analysis.

Regards,

Nikhat, let me put it in my own way. I think you are utterly stupid!

Re: # 222

Nikhat beti

You delivered your message very clearly indeed. Good luck in pursuing your dreams. It is important to have a dream, as Martin Luther King Jr. said.

Over all, excellent work, Nikhat. Chowk is a good place to deliver messages.

This is so funny! The corrections,more corrections and more corrections. You really have tried hard to find something to criticize,great! and thanks for giving my article so much of your valuable time. Any how I think I conveyed my message successfully. Thats all I wanted to do. The job is done.
Nikhat Riaz

Re: # 220 musalman auraton ko mat chher , oayy tum nay phd kia hai english main lalamusa university say,matt mar yeh angrezi , nikhat aik musalman hai , bhai thippar hamari jaan chhor.

Nikhat, Nikhat, Nikhat! You sure are screwed up in your head. And here is the proof:

"Why should a Muslim woman be subjugated to the compulsion of a dresscode? Isn’t this restraining her human rights and her freedom of choice?"

I am reproducing verbatim from dictionary.reference.com website the meanings of 5 words (sub·ju·gate, com·pul·sion, re·strain, free·dom and choice). Dont you find any contradiction or contrariness between these 3 words: "subjugate", "compulsion", "restrain" and the phrase "freedom of choice"? (And we have not even mentioned "human rights" yet. That can wait until English lesson #2). Nikhatbaby! You need serious education in English. Unless of course as I said in the beginning: you are totally screwed in your head!

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Entries from dictionary.reference.com follow...
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sub·ju·gate

–verb (used with object), -gat·ed, -gat·ing.
1. to bring under complete control or subjection; conquer; master.
2. to make submissive or subservient; enslave.

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com·pul·sion

–noun
1. the act of compelling; constraint; coercion.
2. the state or condition of being compelled.
3. Psychology. a strong, usually irresistible impulse to perform an act, esp. one that is irrational or contrary to one's will.

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re·strain

tr.v. re·strained, re·strain·ing, re·strains
1a. To hold back or keep in check; control: couldn't restrain the tears.
1b. To hold (a person) back; prevent: restrained them from going.
2. To deprive of freedom or liberty.
3. To limit or restrict.

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free·dom

–noun
1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.
4. political or national independence.
5. personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom.
6. exemption from the presence of anything specified (usually fol. by from): freedom from fear.
7. the absence of or release from ties, obligations, etc.
8. ease or facility of movement or action: to enjoy the freedom of living in the country.
9. frankness of manner or speech.
10. general exemption or immunity: freedom from taxation.
11. the absence of ceremony or reserve.
12. a liberty taken.
13. a particular immunity or privilege enjoyed, as by a city or corporation: freedom to levy taxes.
14. civil liberty, as opposed to subjection to an arbitrary or despotic government.
15. the right to enjoy all the privileges or special rights of citizenship, membership, etc., in a community or the like.
16. the right to frequent, enjoy, or use at will: to have the freedom of a friend's library.
17. Philosophy. the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination. Compare necessity (def. 7).

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choice
noun, adjective, choic·er, choic·est.

–noun
1. an act or instance of choosing; selection: Her choice of a computer was made after months of research. His parents were not happy with his choice of friends.
2. the right, power, or opportunity to choose; option: The child had no choice about going to school.
3. the person or thing chosen or eligible to be chosen: This book is my choice. He is one of many choices for the award.
4. an alternative: There is another choice.
5. an abundance or variety from which to choose: a wide choice of candidates.
6. something that is preferred or preferable to others; the best part of something: Mare's Nest is the choice in the sixth race.
7. a carefully selected supply: This restaurant has a fine choice of wines.
8. a choice grade of beef.

–adjective
9. worthy of being chosen; excellent; superior.
10. carefully selected: choice words.
11. (in the grading of beef in the U.S.) rated between prime and good.

—Idiom
12. of choice, that is generally preferred: A detached house is still the home of choice.

"Among all the prevailing religions Islam is the only religion which addresses not only individuals but society as well. ‘Quran’ gives the infrastructure on which a Muslim state should formulate its family, civil and constitutional laws so that society functions normally and peacefully. And that includes the law of ‘Hijab.’ Does this mean that practicing ‘Hijab’ will enable societies to function peacefully? To some extent yes! Following are some statistics indicating proportional relationship of women’s clothing and incidence of sexual crimes against women."

Really? Have you studied Hinduism? If not how can you say that Islam is the only religion which addresses not only individuals but society as well? All religions address individuals therefore society also. If you have studied Hinduaism then probably you know the famous 4 Sanskirt lines which talk about "karma" and "phal". What makes you think that those lines do not do the job of "addressing" individuals and society much more effectively than any Islamic book? How can one objectively answer such questions?

sou bat ki ek bat. You Islamics are too immersed in your own thing. Which is okay. Everybody does that. But when you down two towers it is not okay. Islam! I give you 1 millenium maximum to diappear from face of earth. Of course now it seems the process has been quickened. Provoke west and you will get nuclear versions of Iraqs and Afghanistans. And good riddance sooner. Your only chance is changing Islam. Make it compatible with rest of humanity. Else be prepared to disappear. Admit it: Islam is not revelations. It is just ravings and rantings of a starved mad man.

2 corrections:

"Also are there equivalent data for other western countries."

should read as

"Also are there equivalent data for other western countries?"

"Does not mean rate rapes is any less in Pakistan"

should read as

"Does not mean rape rates are any less in Pakistan"

"Another report from the web site of the [Department of Justice] indicates: On a given day in 1994 there were approximately 234,000 offenders convicted of rape or sexual assault. Of the 9,691 male sex offenders released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, 5.3 percent were re-arrested for a new sex crime within 3 years of release."

5.3 percent re-arrest is good or bad? Also are you suggesting dress as cause of recidivism or repeat crime is to be thought as tendency to same crime. When you are serial murderer you tend to repeat same MO. Repeated MO is a tendency of all criminals and normal humans.

So suppose if 5.3 percent humans persist in poking fingers in their anus while defecating even though as a child they were caught doing same and severely punished for doing such naughty thing. Then would you say that it is bad (or is good that percent is so low)? Would you then think that garam masala in their diet is the cause for it? Or is it plain and simple tendency to repeat same pleasure or same bad behaviour?

Also are there equivalent data for other western countries. Try to get data on other western countries. You will fail. Simple because USA gathers this data you are able to find them. Pakistan does not gather data so you will not find equivalent data. Does not mean rate rapes is any less in Pakistan. Objective study of rape rates and its relation to foods, dress, climate, ethnic and cultural background, social attitudes etc is tough.

#215 Posted by nkg,

If you take anger, lust etc out of life, what else remains?

Re: # 214
Oh come on!!! One or two examples does not make a judgement.
The basic elements in animal/fish/egg etc... is the main reason for the excitement ( anger, lust etc...) unless and until you work it out properly...

Nkg,

(The next best practice is stop using non-veg food.)

Hitler was a veggie. Buddha was not.

Regards

Re: # 208
The best way for all this evil is, practice Yoga. There are couple of Asans ( one I know, which is similar to lotus or Padma). You can control yourself. The next best practice is stop using non-veg food.

Re: # 197
This is pure sh**. I can not imagine, people still believe in magic/miracle!!!!!!!!! ( Ha ha ha...). In Calcutta, there is a magicin called P C Sirkar. He shows nice miracles (a pitcher which provides unlimited water. He vanshed an entire train from a station). One person, called Mr. Beni Hinn visited Bangalore last year to perform faith healing. Naturally, some RSS/VHP people has tried to disrupt the activity (both these poor Hinn follwers and RSS fellows were weak hearted). RSS was scared that, it will result in conversion. One fellow, has argued nicely. " Our thousands years of old civilisation has to tackle this miracle/magic with violence, then there is some basic flaw in our society. Rather, we fix it first".
A nice event about Lord Ramakrishna Paramahansa. Once, he has declared, that on a particular day he will give people whatever they wants. A large number of people had gathered on that morning. He has uttered only one sentence "You attain pure sence".
http://www.writespirit.net/authors/sri_ramakrishna/gospel_sri_ramakrishna/no-one -can-limit-god/

Re: # 207

Dr Younus Sheikh was a well known apostate from India- a pride of modern muslims!!

Re: # 208

"Your statement.......is too brutal or impractical."

Exactly the point regarding chadars and hijabs....any way Islam is full of such 'impractical and brutal' solutions for assserting its collective sense of 'shame'.

Re: # 206 zee

dude, hanoods do not celebrate christmas... may be diwali time would be more appropriate... A lot of stuff goes up in smoke at that times anyway... :)

But the question is: why are YOU not worried about this momina-with-no-hijab situation?... Is killing such a momina sanctioned by the bedouin book? If no - then what's the plan for muslims who committing such sins?... If yes - then how do you save islam from these kafiroons who are denouncing the noble acts?...

Either way - you should be worried...

Re: # 23
Your statement,"..How about blinding men so that they cannot view women with lust? How about making them wear male chastity belts as part of Islam so that they cannot rape women even if they want to??.." is too brutal or impractical.

Just installing blinkers like those around horses of Jutkas will do. Wa Salaam

Kamath

Re: # 21
Mian Laddu-Yar: You didn't mention who Dr Younus Shaikh is?
salaam
Kamath

Abey Laddu, why're you so concerned about mominas? Go and fill up some kitchen stoves to light up some brides. After all, it's Christmas season!

On 11th of December, in Mississauga Canada, Aqsa, a 16 year old Canadian girl was choked to death by her Pakistani father, Muhammad Parvez, for not wearing hijab. “She wanted to live her life the way she wanted to, not the way her parents wanted her to,” her classmates told the reporters. “She just wanted to be herself, honestly she just wanted to show her beauty, and not be pushed around by her parents telling her what she has to be like, what she has to do. Nobody would want to do that.”

Yes, nobody would want to do that, but sadly many girls born in Islamic families are forced to do that.

One day after the death of Aqsa, I received an email from an 18 year old girl from UK. She said that she has been reading about Islam and had decided not to be a Muslim. However, her Muslim parents force her to wear hijab and her sister told her that if their mother learns about her views, “she would either kill you or she’ll kill herself”.

I sent her the story of Aqsa and what her father did to her. She wrote back and said, “What an animal! Anyways, I don’t think my mom cares about my beliefs, as long as I don’t have a boy friend, [and don’t] take off my hijaab.”

The truth is that Aqsa’s father was not an animal either. He was just a devout Muslim, who had worked hard and had built a nice home for his family in an upscale neighborhood. He was an ideal immigrant, a real “success story.” However, he had no choice but to kill his daughter. He did what he had to do. As one friend wrote, “In a way there are two victims in this case. This man like any other father must have loved, nurtured and cared for his daughter for years. It is so unfortunate that he finds himself turned into a monster that ate his own progeny.” Then this friend asked “What kind of ideology was it that turned a simple hard working family man into a revolting image of himself?”

What the westerners do not understand is that Muslims have different values, which are diametrically in contrast with western values. Western societies are guilt based. In guilt based societies individuals base their conduct on “right” and “wrong”. They try to do the right thing and if they do something wrong, they feel guilty. Muslim societies are shame based. In shame based societies individuals base their conduct on the opinion of others about them. What really counts is to look good. In shame cultures, if you do something wrong, as long as no one sees it and knows about it, you are okay. You can still keep your head high and act as an honorable member of the society. It is the image that you project of yourself that matters. You must do everything to protect that image. It is all about keeping the appearances.

In guilt societies, how you dress or don’t dress is your business. You can practice nudity and even promiscuity and have no shame. As long as you don’t violate someone else’s rights you can do whatever you like. Such a thing is inconceivable for Muslims who come from shame societies where everybody's life is the business of everybody else. This makes the western and Islamic cultures essentially incompatible. If this problem is not resolved soon, it will result is a major clash and dire consequences.

In a subsequent email my young British friend wrote, “My mom has noticed a change in me, ..and she said today, ‘I hope you haven’t done anything because so an so aunt will laugh.' Jesus! Who cares about so and so aunt who doesn’t even care about us?”

This is the crux of the problem. In Islamic societies people live in function of the opinion of others about them. That is the only thing that really matters to them. Muhammad Parvez was devastated by the fact that her 16 year old daughter wanted to dress like her classmates and show off her beauty. How could he look into the eyes of his Muslim friends with such a daughter? Muslims call western women “sluts” for not covering themselves. For Mr. Parvez his daughter’s western clothing was a major source of shame and dishonor. He had no choice but to kill her. There is hardly anything for which we humans are willing to die for, or kill, like our honor. This is far truer in shame based societies, where guilt plays virtually no role and everything revolves around shame and honor.

Millions of girls living in Muslim families in the west are abused, beaten and face death by their own loved ones because of honor. Don’t assume that these girls are the only victims. Their families are also victims. They are left with no choice, but to kill the apple of their own eyes. Everyone in these tragedies is a victim. It’s the government that is guilty!

The government is guilty for letting down its Muslim citizens and particularly its most vulnerable members, the Muslim girls. There was no need for Aqsa to die. If hijab was baned she would be alive today. If hijab is banned, no Muslim can look down at other Muslims for not observing it and no one will have to feel shame. Muslims hardy wear hijab or observe any Islamic custom when they live in places where there are few Muslims. They start behaving Islamicly when they congregate together and build their shame based communities.

The 20th century Pahlavi ruler, Reza Shah, knew how to handle this problem. He banned the chador (Iranian style of veil) in 1936. He ordered the police to arrest woman wearing chador and forcibly remove it. Although this policy outraged the mullahs, the average Iranians were relieved. The ban allowed them to be free without having to deal with the burden of shame. The historian Mir-Hosseini writes, “this move was welcomed by Westernized and upperclass men and women, who saw it in liberal terms as a first step in granting women their rights." She continues, 'between 1941 and 1979 wearing hejab [hijab] was no longer an offence, but it was a real hindrance to climbing the social ladder, a badge of backwardness and a marker of class. A headscarf, let alone the chador, prejudiced the chances of advancement in work and society not only of working women but also of men, who were increasingly expected to appear with their wives at social functions. Fashionable hotels and restaurants refused to admit women with chador, schools and universities actively discouraged the chador, although the headscarf was tolerated. It was common to see girls from traditional families, who had to leave home with the chador, arriving at school without it and then putting it on again on the way home'." (cited in El-Guindi 1999 pp. 174-175)

Despite his flaws, Reza Shah is hailed as the father of modern Persia by many Iranians because he banned the hijab. He was a Muslim and was keenly aware of the Muslim mind. He knew that only with the fist of the law Muslims can be rescued from their backward customs. He broke down the power and prestige of the clergy, discarded the Islamic law, closed down Islamic madrassahs, forbade religious processions, and replaced the Islamic calendar with the old Persian-Zoroastrian solar calendar. He prohibited the Islamic call to prayer and discouraged the pilgrimage to Mecca. He even forced the mullahs to shave, take off their robe and engage in honorable professions. The majority of Iranians welcomed his reforms. He was seen as a liberator. He set Iran free from the oppression of the culture of shame. It is this shame that inhibits Muslims to take the first step and stand out of the crowd. It is because of this shame that no reform can ever happen in Islamic societies unless it is imposed on them by force.

Western governments have a duty towards their Muslim citizens and particularly their women that traditionally have been the most disadvantaged members of Islamic societies. If hijab was banned in Canada Aqsa would be alive today and a hard working good father would not have had to choose between his daughter and his honor. The government failed both Aqsa and her father.

There are millions of Muslim families in western countries who share Parvezs' predicament. The girls in these families are under greater pressure and bigger danger than those living in Islamic countries. In Islamic countries everyone wears the same clothing. It is much easier for Muslim girls to conform and comply there than in the West where they are forced to be different. The government owes these girls protection.

Aqsa is dead. Her beauty will be devoured by a cold grave. That bud was nipped before blossoming. Will we let her death go in vain or will we ban hijab and set millions of Muslims free in her memory?

We must ban hijab, save innocent lives, end this abuse, and absolve the poor Muslim parents from having to make such difficult choices. Muslim parents are not animals. They are torn apart between the love of their children and their honor. Only the government can take that burden away. The only people who would not welcome this ban will be the mullahs who will see their power reduced. The average Muslims will be grateful and relieved, even though to keep the image of faithful believers, may publicly oppose the decision. .

Now that Muslims are living in the West in such a large numbers, politicians must make an extra effort to understand the Muslim mind. Only the hand of law can put an end to this culture of shame and help Muslims to integrate. If we let this division stand, a clash between Islam and the West will become inevitable. This means civil war.

hmmmm

Re: # 194
Heaven is imaginary place. People do not know, from where these virgins are supplied. Every one of us will prefer virgins on earth only. But, when for ordinary Paki,Afghani boy, that is near impossible, blow up and kill some non-moslems or fight for Jihad and get the virgins.
I have some more questions, why people needs virgins? Is sex the only purpose of life? What will ladies do in heaven? The concept of heaven is there in almost all cultures, where people can enjoy life without working a bit. This is like luring people to do something, for some future gain. This is the reason, I like Gita. There is nothing called heaven...Bhakti, Gyan and Karma will decide what your future will be.

Pervez Hoodbhoy is a precious exception.

@199,
Oh greate!
Is this one of the State provided Constitutional perk for the public servants to wash their past sins with holy water so that they can start afresh 'as innocent as a new born baby' in the service of their public, or is it only for the "temprary leaders"?
Some time back I came across a poem by Nadeem Nadvi titled Shareef Chor and I remeber couplets which said:
"Khalee ameer choron ko yun nah bhagaaiye
jo hain ghareeb unko bhi Umrah karaiye
daaku jo they luterey they kharbon kay dosto
mehmaan hogaye hain woh Arbon kay, doso".
Rashid

#198 Nasah sahib

[bad karma]

I will be failing miserably in my knightly duties if I do not immediately and vigorously protest on behalf of one Dr. Hoodbhoy (who, being smart, will never do so himself)! :)

urstruly: Great news!! The Islami Khalifa is going to do the hajj!! Takbeer!!

From Dawn (Cowasjee)
We read that the (totally unsuitable) caretaker prime minister, glossy-headed Mohammedmian Soomro, is leaving today to perform what is obligatory upon all those who rule in this land — Haj at the expense of the adoring people. And happily for him, he is not going alone. He has company. An entourage which reportedly comprises 35 men and 15 women all described as “his close associates and officials of PM and Senate secretariats”. They are all “on the invitation of Soomro … but it is not clear who would bear the expense of this special delegation to be airlifted on a special flight.” Well, to you and me it is abundantly clear — it is us.

" heard of the tragic death Tuesday of Mississauga teenager Aqsa Parvez from choking injuries she sustained Monday, allegedly at the hands of her father Muhammad Parvez,"

Oh no -- that name Pervez definitely carries bad karma -- whether in Pakistan or in Canada.

And again ...

www.sunnah.org/history/miracles_of_Prophet.htm

It seems the link did not get through ... trying again ...

And furthermore (re #88)…

Apparently Imam Hanifa (699-767) was born some 67 years after the Prophet’s death. This puts his adulthood about 100 years after the Prophet’s death. One century is a long time. A lot can be said, forgotten, changed, twisted, fabricated over a 100 years. Don’t forget that Shia sect had split well within this period … and Ali and Ayesha went to war against each other after merely 30 years of the Prophet's demise.

No wonder Bukhari ended up discarding 99% ahadith he had originally compiled … since they could not be verified. But there’s more. Here’s a link to miracles of Prophet (pbuh) as recorded in Bukhari. Apparently, the Prophet (pbuh) multiplied food, water flowed from his fingers, his companions were guided by magical lamps, he made trees weep …and more.

Now, you may believe all this and that’s fine. But don’t be surprised if others fail to take you seriously. Just a thought ...

Re: # 189

Hamidm sahib:

After reading what you posted, I have some questions.

Why is it that people who are in heaven are allowed to do things with 72 virgins for example, if they did it here they will end up hell?

Is there are traffic between Heaven and Hell, a traffice for example that may be based on promotion or demotion.

If there is, then why this traffic by-passes the Earth, otherwise would there not be endless cycle of rebirth?

Why there are different laws for hell, Earth and heaven? Why even send people to hell or heaven, afterall they are here on the Earth too. Why not?

Are these too many and too wrong questions to ask?

urstruly,

... you want an original tafseer? ... okay, name the surah and i will give it to you in less than thirty minutes - that's about all it should have taken any half-literate person to write the original .........

.....look mian, if you approach the book as an objective reader you will realize that it is nothing but gobbeldygook that could have been dreamed up by any sadhu or religious shyster high on bhang or charas .........

Re #181:

Read your own post carefully. Note that the manuscript in question was probably only a part (or all) of Surah Ta Ha. And yet it was treated as “The Book” … since Umer was asked to be physically clean! Do you get it now??

In essence, a few verses and/or chapters of Quran, whether recorded on animal skin, or cloth, or leaves … constitute the “Book”. This is consistent with meanings of “kitab” I had earlier suggested (#179).

Furthermore, “clean” may apply to purity of intentions as well and you have been unable to show otherwise. Your original point - that Quran was compiled by Holy Prophet (pbuh) in his lifetime - is further undermined by your latest post. Once again, I appreciate your help (grin).

Re: # 189

Hamidm sahib:

This is shorter than my Shastri ji and Swami ji wanted me to read.

Yes hamidm we know that you have programmed the F2 and F4 keys of your keybord with these posts which you have been posting for years now. Thank you for your interest but I am really bored with this endless recycling of yours. yaawn.

Re: # 187

anil mian,

please refer to my tafseer-i-koran which was published on chowk during the holy month of ramadhan ..... here is a sample :


converstion part III

allah mian: Alif Lam Mim.

hamidm: here we go again !......... this is getting really aggravating .... stop it!

allah mian: Allah, (there is) no god but He, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all things subsist

hamidm: now don`t get too cocky ........what about vishnu and all his avatars - are they chopped liver .? ........ and if you are so darn self-subsisting why do you want me to bang my head on the ground five times a day ?

allah main: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

hamidm: ...... oh, please ..... stop talking in the third person again - are you a schizo or what ? ........ and why can`t you do anything right the first time around ?...... maybe you need a better ghost writer instead of that lazy lout gabby ......

allah mian: Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah they shall have a severe chastisement; and Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution.

hamidm: ..... there you go again - threatening and posturing like a school yard bully ...... and mian ji, you have severe communication problems because people have a hard time understanding your incoherent gibberish - you sound like one of those nba players .......

allah mian: Allah-- surely nothing is hidden from Him in the earth or in the heaven.

hamid : we are really full of ourself, arn`t we ?! ......now tell me, how many fingers i am holding behind my back ?

allah mian: He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He likes; there is no god but He, the Mighty, the Wise

hamidm: allright, all right, i get it ... now move on ........ and as for shaping things in the womb, it is clear that you are pretty bad at it ........ it seems to be a hit and miss thing - tom cruise one day, masadi the next ........ anyway, i have to run now - it is a beautiful day and i`d rather be sitting in the sun sipping on a mohito instead wasting my time trying to understand your mind ........

Scout_new) #161

Are you the same scout who started a complete thread where she accused the Holy Prophet (PBUH) of being a pedophile (Nauzbillah, Aztaghfirullah, Lahore Vilayet Kuwait)?

Don't forget that this same scout had said that hijabi girls were easy and could be laid without much effort.

Re: # 184

Hamidm Sahib:

Can you please put here or email me the heavily marked parts of the book you are describing here. I am very interested in reading what you have marked. Although, I do not waste time in reading books that fall in religions class. My teachers used to get very angry that a person can be such ******, and still excel in other subjects. Now I take this as a badge of honor, then I almost wanted to become a fanatic pundit, just to prove them wrongs. I mastered Sanskrit, read Panini and gave up those teachers - called Shastri jees, and Swami jees.

Hamidm2, I like your humorous and witty posts and your view point in general. But, don't you think you go overboard sometimes in making your point?

... for all i care, the hijabans can run around naked with nothing but the hijab on their heads ....... what bothers me is the fact that like the long shaggy beard, the turban, the mark of the devil on the forehead, the above the ankle shalwar and the ak-47, the hijab is a symbol of this monstrous ideology that threatens civilization ........

Re: # 181

urstruly mian,

..... a book is a book is a book ..... if it is a good book it should be able to stand on its own credentials ..... all these silly cleansing rituals have been created by priests, prophets and other charlatans to awe the unwashed masses into believing that the book is what it is not ....

.......claiming that it is the word of god and when challenged to prove their claim, turining around and challenging the challenger to produce something to match its 'beauty', is the silliest thing i have ever heard ! ........maybe beauty lies in the eye of the beholder but in this case the beholder is obviously blind as a bat ........ mo's book is poorly wriiten, rhetorical, full of contradictions, without any head or tail and yet you are supposed to wash your butt before handling it - why?

.... anyway, my heavily highlighted and underlined copy of this bedouin masterpiece sits between george carlin and ibn waraq .... and i have not been struck by lightening .... yet ....

Nikhat,

If you want to cover yourself then that fine. If that liberates you then that is fine as well. The issue becomes critical when you force your ideals on others. There could be women of Muslim faith who would like to dress like other women in their surroundings. Would you agree to take away their freedom to wear what they want?

Similarly, Non-Muslim women may want to wear what they think is appropriate in Middle Eastern countries. How many countries do you think will allow that?

Re: # 158 Posted by HP on December 17, 2007 9:35:10 pm

[If the whole purpose of Hijab is to cover the hair and ears, then why can't girls just wear a cap or a hat that can cover the hair and ears? Is covering neck a requirement too? Why do girls need a scarf to do things that a hat can do?]

I have seen a "hijabi" women, who usually comes to workout in short sleeves showing half her naked arms and forearms, and her trainer who happens to be a man, is looking at her rather intensely to correct her work out routine.

Is this what a "hijabi" women should be doing?

Re: # 179

Perhaps the chronological background of the Chapter "The Inevitable(56) will help you understand that there is no metaphorical meaning of the word "clean" in the said verses.

"According to the chronological order that Hadrat Abdullah bin Abbas has given of the Surahs, first Surah Ta Ha was sent down, then Al-Waqi'ah and then Ash-Shu`ara'(Suyuti: Al-Itqan). The same sequence has been reported from Ikrimah (Baihaqi: Dala'il an Nubuwwat).

This is supported also by the story that Ibn Hisham has related from Ibn Ishaq about the affirmation of the Faith by Hadrat Umar (may Allah be pleased with him). It says that when Hadarat Umar entered his sister's house, Surah Ta Ha was being recited. Hearing his voice the people of the house hid the pages of the Qur'an. Hadrat Umar first seized his brother-in-law and then his sister rose in defense of her husband, he hit her also and wounded her on the head. When Umar saw blood on his sister, he was sorry for what he had done, and said to her: "Show me the manuscript that you have concealed so that I may see what it contains." The sister said: "You are unclean because of your polytheism: wa anna-hu la yamassu-ha ill-at-tahir: "Only a clean person can touch it." So, Hadrat Umar rose and washed himself, and then took up the manuscript to read it. This shows that Sarah Al-Waqi'ah had been sent down by that time for it contains the verse: La yamassu hu ill al mutahharun; and it had been established historically that Hadrat Umar embraced Islam after the first migration to Habash, in the fifth year of the Prophethood.

#178 Tahmed32

Your wish is my command, sir!

Strike out "from the same stock"!

Substitute with "from the same Stork"!

Urstruly (#177)

I checked translations from Shakir, Yusuf Ali, and Pickhtal - and they all use “shall” in one form or another. However, one may apply “should” as well. Moving on …

Note that “kitab” (Book) here refers to Quran - as it existed then; in bits and pieces, scribbled on cloth, leaves, animal skin, stones etc. - or in a leather-bound edition published today by Taj Company Ltd. “Kitab” also implies revelation from above, a written letter containing instructions, etc.

Applied to Quran literally, the verse suggests that one should make an effort to be physically clean when handling the cloth, skin, or the shiny leather-bound book on which Quranic text is recorded. The wider, metaphorical meaning suggests that only those with pure intentions will grasp the message of Quran.

None of this necessarily suggests that Quran existed in its present form at the time verse 56:78 was revealed ... or that Quran was compiled by Holy Prophet (pbuh) in his lifetime. Your conclusion remains far-fetched and unsupported.

bjkumar #26 This preoccupation of being "from the same stock" stems from the primitive part of the brain. As an immoderately enlightened moderate, a man of reason..may I add even a Renaissance Man...you should know better than to resort to such scientifically absurd statements!! Leave this for lesser individuals than yourself on chowk.

Re: # 129

"Most surely it is an honored Quran, In a book that is protected, Which none shall touch but those who are clean "

The word "shall" in the sentence is the archaic use of the word "should". The modern lexicon and grammer permits the use of "shall" as a form of word "will" (which is the future tense) only with the first persons "I" and "We". There is nothing literal about it. There are tens of other English and Urdu translations that suggest the same that no person unclean (without ablution) should touch Qura'n which is also backed by several ahadith.

In the subcontinent, there is little difference between the Hindus or Muslims when it comes to being "gentle" or otherwise. We are from the same stock and share the same characteristics (with the possible exception of Zeemax perhaps, who directly descended from some Arab-like space aliens during one of their mysterious space-ship visits (back when those Arab-like space creatures used to visit)!)

#156 HP

Kambakhat HP, you make some of us VERY jealous! :)

------

Hurricane,
Kambakhat Hurricane, the point is that one can not look away from a problem because there are "only a few" problem-creators. This is the surest way to ensure that it continues.

------

To me, the writer of this piece comes across as an absoulte ignoramous and the best one can hope for her is that she will grow up before she creates some real and permanent damage to her own children! The sad tragedy that occurred in Canada was an individual tragedy but the fact that so many people refuse to face it is an indicator of a deeper, systemic problem. In the end, it is not about the community but about the stupid mistakes that individuals make in their own lives!

Respected hurricane sahib
Gentle Hindus may be gentle but they don't have fear. Those who were weak and afraid converted long long ago. The surviving ones are real survivors and are fearless.
Regards and good morning (since you will read it only after waking up.

Re: # 170

Humsab ji,

My reply is aiwaian cause I have failed to truly empathise with my gentle hindu friends. I have not understood the depth of the fear of the fundoos that hindus have.

Fear not, although USA looks like the mulitple riyasats of hindustan when the muslim invaders came, the united states is actually more united. It shall not let the muslims students of this university take over the country.

Yes, I need to go to sleep now. Gotta go be a cog in the system again tomorrow morning. Work for "the man". Make "the man" richer :(

If a woman has to cover her entire body to protect from the males of that society, the society needs to be changed.

If a woman has to cover her entire body to protect from the males of that society, the society needs to be changed.

hurricane ji
By the way, your reply at # 167 is like aiwaiaN. Kuchh baat nahi ban rahi. logic ki kami hai. Think about some other solid arguement.
Regards

hmmm. So, hurricane sahib is staying awake at this hour to ensure that he keeps wakingup muslims!
Good Job.
Hun so jaojaake!
Regards

Re: # 165

Nikhat, you chose a very interesting topic to start.

A longwinded but interesting debate has been taking place on muslimwakeup.com for the past 3 or 4 years. It is worth an investigation.

Don't mind khala ji, she means well, but acts a bit too elderly at times :)

Humsab sahib,

janab-e-wala,

gentle friend,

it is true that muslims started as a very tiny group in India, and then before you knew it, they were warming the kursi.

However, those were traders. These are students. They will be happy getting a tankhwa, working for the man. Nothing to worry about here ;)

TS/hurricane ji

Your gentle hindu friends/interactors have posted their views fully knowing The History and they also know that History repeats itself IF people don't learn from Historical Experiences.
By the way, you need to re-read that because it is not just an issue of meditation centre but TAKING OVER the centre for Islamic purposes. Too much of Sufiana Love from others/administrators for having common meditation centre has not worked because those who believe in exclusivity have made it exclusive.
Regards

Dear certainly I do not regard myself 'invincible Hijabi'and truly head scarf, abaya,veil or no veil cannot protect any woman from violence, because as I said earlier the causes of these crimes have wide spread deep entangled roots. Though I do believe that clothing and dressing of a woman do play a contributing factor to a certain extent. Decency ,morality, integrity, intelligence do speak for itself scarf or perdah has nothing to do with it. As far as age of romantacizing idealism goes, I am far beyond it. I feel myself more of a student of Quran, science and society as comapred to victim of idealism.
As shore sahib said may be I did not present my case in effective way. After all this was my first dive in such a turbulent water.

Nikhat Riaz

Was the killing of Aqsa a Muslim act?

No culture has a monopoly on fatal disagreements between fathers and daughters

Lorne Gunter, Freelance
Published: Sunday, December 16

For the past week, I have been in what, for a journalist, amounts to sensory
deprivation -- no papers, no Internet, no e-mail and only intermittent Spanish-speaking television.

I saw highlights of all the Champions League soccer matches in Europe, but only some of last weekend's NFL scores and none of the NHL's.

What North American news there was was spottier than the television reception.

But I could discern that at least two things happened on this continent while I was away: there was a terrific ice storm in the American Midwest and a Muslim girl was killed -- in Ontario! -- for refusing to wear a hijab.

For seven days I heard nothing of the goings-on in Parliament or the legislature or the think-tanks, advocacy groups or court houses. But even thousands of kilometres away, in a virtual news cocoon, I heard of the tragic death Tuesday of Mississauga teenager Aqsa Parvez from choking injuries she sustained Monday, allegedly at the hands of her father Muhammad Parvez, allegedly after the two clashed over her repeated refusal to wear the traditional Muslim headscarf for women.

The temptation is to write: "See, see, here is another example of the violence inherent in Islam," to connect Aqsa's murder to riots in the streets of Khartoum or Ramallah or Karachi over teacher's naming teddies Muhammad or Danish cartoonists drawing pictures of the prophet.

But is Aqsa's murder a uniquely Muslim act? True, friends of the Parvez family have said Muhammad and his daughter frequently quarreled over her refusal to wear the modest clothing he preferred, including the hijab. The arguments became so frequent and hostile Aqsa moved in with another family nearby who permitted her greater freedom to act like the mainstream teens she saw all around.

And, admittedly, police say Muhammad called 911 after one of these fights early Monday and told operators he had killed his daughter. On the surface, then, Aqsa would appear to another victim of Islamic fundamentalism.

But was her asphyxiation really uniquely Muslim? Have traditionalist fathers in other cultures never clashed with their daughters over the latter's desire to be more modern, more Western, more open? And, are most fundamentalist Muslim fathers just a quarrel away from strangling their daughters?

Of course, other cultures are also prone to intergenerational clashes and Muslim fathers have so far shown no more predilection for murder than fathers of other cultures.

Traditionalist fathers will fight with their Western-raised daughters and sons. Traditionalist mothers can always be found who bristle at their children's experiments with fashionable dress, pop music and North American dating rituals. Elderly family members tut-tut and wag their fingers in disgust.

Are Muslim immigrants in Canada more prone to disapproval of their children who dabble in mainstream ways? Perhaps. Yet even if they are, they by no means have a monopoly over that disapproval. Sikh, Hindu, Chinese and other communities have their share.

Christian parents have been known to fight with their offspring who drift away from the church, too. I once recommended the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding and set off a storm among fundamentalists who were upset because the film approvingly depicts premarital sex in a nongraphical way.

The parent-child cultural divide has been a common theme in literature and movies forever.

Nor do Muslim parents in Canada have an especially bad record of violent objection to their children's cultural evolution. The newer a community is in Canada, the more likely it is to witness sharp verbal clashes, but as Barbara Kay pointed out in the National Post late this week, Aqsa's death may be Canada's first honour killing. But even if it is, it will not be a uniquely Muslim act unless it is followed up by other killings within the community, killings that become a trend and grow in number.

No Muslim-Canadian group excused Aqsa's murder. No mobs formed up in the streets to carry placards reading, "Death to all immodest girls who shame their families." No imams recommended other fathers dispatch their dissolute daughters the same way.

In Jackson, Michigan, this week, about 425 kilometres from Mississauga, a father stood trial for allegedly suffocating his daughter with a pillow after the girl refused to stop boring holes in the walls of the family home. Aside from the usual overwrought feminist suspects, no one suggested this proved anything about all fathers, just as no one has claimed (yet) that the shooter at the church and missionary training school in Colorado demonstrated by his actions a deep, underlying problem with violence among Christian fundamentalists.

To nearly all observers, these were the random acts of individuals who snapped and ended up killing people.

After a teen opened fire at an Omaha, Neb., mall two weeks ago, no one suggested the killings were representative of all teens or even all mall rats.

As a harsh critic in the past of the violent, anti-Western blight I see in too much of the Muslim world, I admit it would be easy to tie Aqsa Parvez's death up in the same bundle.

Yet, ultimately, I see nothing uniquely Muslim in her death. If, indeed, her father killed her, her death is his doing, not Islam's.

lgunter@shaw.ca

© The Edmonton Journal 2007

#153, #154,

Dear gentle hindu interactors and friends bj koomar and kaal CHAKRA ;) ,

You have to be kidding me. So a bunch of fundoos are praying a university room. BTW almost every university I have visited has a meditation room. Sometimes it even has different rooms for different religions.

So you are afraid that these guys are going to take over America? hahahhahahahah

Well then, we don't need the bigots and the white supremacists and the neo cons anymore. The prejudice of my own gentle brown hindu friends will do my fellow muslims in.

Great and well researched article..please write more. Thanks.

nikhat,

a few things....it's easy to fall under the spell of impractical idealism at your age, i'm guessing from your bio you're in your early twenties? i'm glad wearing the hijab is working out so well for you, but, my dear, i'm afraid you're romanticizing it a bit too much, NO, the hijab does not prevent rape and violence against women, i have witnessed fully clothed, hijabed, chaddored women in Karachi harrassed by lascivious men, if your claim was true, that hijab, that covering would protect them, but that's just not the case....

to me, the hijab is strictly, a religious garment which certain Muslim women wear for personal Islamic reasons, as long as it's an individual religious decision, there is nothing wrong with it....

problems arise when hijabis feel moral and religious superiority over non-hijabis and start sermonizing which you are doing, albeit veiled in this 'feminism' angle

you seem like a smart woman, i hope you grow out of this 'i'm-invincible-because-i'm-a-hijabi' phase, don't get me wrong, wear it with conviction, for your religion, for your personal comfort, and that's about it

Amazing. You know, a lot of things we logically expect, but when they actually happen, we still are amazed!

Yes, somali women do have those features, and seem pretty competent at the work they do. Did you check out the Mall of America in Bloomington? Have they taken over that too? Probably not yet.

#157 Posted by Eklavya

No, NO, I am not pulling leg or any thing like that. That is what I actually observed. Seems like Somalians women share features and softness and some beauty with the Ethiopian women.

I just have couple of questions for Nikhat bibi.

If the whole purpose of Hijab is to cover the hair and ears, then why can't girls just wear a cap or a hat that can cover the hair and ears? Is covering neck a requirement too? Why do girls need a scarf to do things that a hat can do?

HP, don't know if you are just pulling my leg, but I personally will not be surprised if Minneapolis is on its way to becoming a Somali city. :)

#155 Posted by Eklavya
Funny! I am in a Hotel downtown Minneapolis(crown plaza) right now and will be here until Wednesday afternoon. Downtown by the Govt plaza is where I spent the day. People are really nice the hotel Shuttle driver took me to several places to find the right drink for me.

I have never seen so many hijab in one city before. Seems like the whole city is owned by Somalians and their hijabs are every where. From airport to downtown, Somalians and Hijab is every where.
I have never seen so much enthusiasm for a football game either. Last night the hotel was taken over by the people from Chicago and the downtown this evening was taken over by the Viking fans. I am glad the game is over. Had a great massage at Mall of America. The Israeli girl running a cosmetic kiosk in the mall was actually looking for some fun for money unbelievable.

For those who may not have lived in the Midwest, Minnesotans are the softest, and bloomingtonians the worst of them.

They deserve everything they get.

ts, it's probably not 10 or 12 'fundoos.' Did you get that number from somewhere? If so, apologies.

--------------------

I have no symapthy for Minnesotans and share ts's disdain for non-Muslims who may be inconvenienced, offended, denied access by "10 or 12 fundoos."

Minnesotans went out of their way, bent over backward to invite - yes, invite - many of these Muslims.

The softest are always eaten first. And only a total fool would shed tears for them. TS and I surely don't.

#152 Hurricane

How many individuals did it require to bring about 9/11?

It is the mindset, stupid!

#151

yes the 10 or 12 fundoos are gonna take over the US. watch out. Man the torpedoes. Ready the cannons....the fundoos are here, the fundoos are here

Islamofascism comes to minnesota

Katherine Kersten: Normandale's 'meditation room' is home to a single faith

By Katherine Kersten, Star Tribune

Last update: December 16, 2007 - 8:53 PM

Last week, I visited a Muslim place of worship. A schedule for Islam's five daily prayers was posted at the entrance, near a sign requesting that shoes be removed. Inside, a barrier divided men's and women's prayer space, an arrow informed worshippers of the direction of Mecca, and literature urged women to cover their faces.

Sound like a mosque?

The place I'm describing is the "meditation room" at Normandale Community College, a 9,200-student public institution in Bloomington.

Until recently, the room was the school's only usable racquetball court. College administrators converted the court into a meditation room when construction forced closure of the previous meditation room.

A row of chest-high barriers splits the room into sex-segregated sections. In the smaller, enclosed area for women sits a pile of shawls and head-coverings. Literature titled "Hijaab [covering] and Modesty" was prominently placed there, instructing women on proper Islamic behavior.

They should cover their faces and stay at home, it said, and their speech should not "be such that it is heard."Nikhat...are you listening?

"Enter into Islaam completely and accept all the rulings of Islaam," the tract read in part. "It should not be that you accept what entertains your desires and leave what opposes your desires; this is from the manners of the Jews."

"[T]he Jews and the Christians" are described as "the enemies of Allaah's religion." The document adds: "Remember that you will never succeed while you follow these people."

A poster on the room's door advertised a local lecture on "marriage from an Islamic perspective," with "useful tips for marital harmony from the Prophet's ... life." Other fliers invited students to join the Normandale Islamic Forum, or participate in Ramadan celebrations.

One thing was missing from the meditation room: evidence of any faith but Islam. No Bible, no crucifix, no Torah.

Normandale's administration is facilitating the room's Islamization. The college's building crew erected the barrier separating men's and women's sections, according to Ralph Anderson, dean of student affairs. College officials also posted signs at the room's entrance asking students to remove shoes -- a Muslim custom before prayers. This was "basically a courtesy to Muslim students," Anderson said.

Despite the room's Islamic atmosphere, Anderson says it "is open to everyone."

Why is the meditation room segregated by sex? "Muslim students prefer that areas be divided into male and female," he said. "Other students don't care."

Doesn't sex-segregation present a constitutional problem in a public educational institution? "I don't want to comment on that," he said.

And the literature regarding Jews and Christians? "I would probably take it out if I knew it was in there," said Anderson.

Normandale's zealous effort to accommodate Muslim students is not new. Chad Lunaas, a former student who works at the college part time, cites examples.

Last year on Fridays, he says, he often entered the bathroom to find that "every sink and toilet stall had someone washing his feet." Other students couldn't use the bathroom at these times, and those who tried felt awkward.

Lunaas finally expressed his concerns to a Muslim student who "seemed to be in charge."

"His attitude was, 'We don't have to listen to you, we can do whatever we want,' " he said.

Confrontations also erupted in the sex-segregated meditation room, according to Lunaas. "Muslim students just took it over. They made people who were not of the Muslim religion feel very uncomfortable, especially if they were female."

One female student tried to use the room when Muslim students were in it, said Lunaas. "She believed she should be treated equally. They were telling her to leave, to take off her shoes, to go to the other side of the divider."

Anderson says he met several times with concerned students. But "the whole thing was just basically swept aside," according to Lunaas.

Nikhat
“Does the rule of ‘Hijab’ (a scarf covering the head) suppress or liberate women’s individuality?”
Your definition , quoted above, of Hijab under present usage of the word is correct. But the following quote of yours is terms of the above definition is totally wrong if you mean that God has ordered women (in Quran) to wear the head scarf.
“So Muslim ladies follow the words of Allah and practice Hijab as simple as that”.God does NOT say that in the Book.
It is a requirement of Muslim “Church” and enforced by its “Priests”, along with cultural and traditional practices of many countries and other churches too.
You are confusing the two!
Rashid

abu goatbrain: why aren't you wearing a long ankle length robe like your pedo-prophet?



In much of the Arab world, symbols of extreme observance are fairly standard and tend to stem from the conservative religious cultures of Persian Gulf nations, like Saudi Arabia. There is the long beard. In extreme cases men wear a loose-fitting robe that stops at their ankles, just as the prophet Muhammad wore his own gown at ankle length.

Mohar,

Please do ignore Mr. Hamza,

According to his Islam, it is appropriate to insult people of other religions. Very islamic behavior, indeed!

#133 Posted by nasah on December 17, 2007 4:30:19 pm


These days it is the goat blood that has replaced the virgin blood in the cradle of Western civilization.


yup..which proves my point that you can take a paki to canada but you can't stop him from backsliding on the civilizational timeline..

Mohar Pullsjskdjdjdkdjfjfjdbggwrefdvsbcbcpujaran..how many teaspoons of gao-mootar do u take in ur chai?

Muslims getting literally bumps on the head in their quest for allah :)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/world/africa/18egypt.html?_r=1&hp&am p;am p;oref=slogin

The zebibah, Arabic for raisin, is a dark circle of callused skin, or in some cases a protruding bump, between the hairline and the eyebrows.

Re: # 142

"Fundamentalists make regressive arguments - when Nikhat could have easily said T**** S*** , it is my choice and my religion, and that is no one's business. If her family accepts this position, that is end of the story"

I agree with that. I guess Nikhat wants to feel good too, that she is doing something religious :)

I am also in 100% agreement with you that reasoning with fundamentalists goes nowhere.

ts bhai, many of us are driven by greed primarily (if not greed alone). But for our money (and our jobs) we would be happier in India and Pakistan. it surely isn't the lure of 'freedom' or 'culture' that draws us to the US. (I am not talking of chaltahai here :)).

Do consider this perhaps provocative idea. If there is a casteist person, who fully believes in the caste system - this person, conservative or not, will object to behavior that goes contrary to the rules of caste. Marry outside of the caste, for instance. If he or she doesn't, then something is wrong with his belief in the caste system.

And a person who believes in Islam, truly believes in it, WILL/SHOULD object to going against the basic rules of Islam, whether he is conservative or not - that is, expect women to dress modestly, not marry a man not of the book, etc.

How specific individuals deal with deviations depends, of course, on many individual and societal factors.

Re: # 134

Hurricane:

My point is exactly the same that this decision should be left to the personal choice, might I say as a fashion statement. Why must for every act divine sanction should be cited.

This theory of divine sanction is the most dangerous part, in all religions and everywhere. It has even produced suicide bombers. Fundamentalists make regressive arguments - when Nikhat could have easily said T**** S*** , it is my choice and my religion, and that is no one's business. If her family accepts this position, that is end of the story.

For Hijaber father or other family members to go to the edge, in the absence of divine saction, would put fear in the minds of the over the board Hijabers, rather being used to instil fear in Hijabee mind. There is no difference in this view, in the gang rapists mind as well, and fear is instilled in innocent minds. This is result of what I called as result of regressive thinking.

That is the way it should be, but it is not. Why? My answer is with fundamentalists reasoning is dead.

kaal mian,

a conservative family has every right to disapprove of their son or daughters non-compliant lifestyle.

That's alright. Families fight on trivial matters, so why can't they fight over a non-trivial matter.

Just like a lot of hindu families don't even like a hindu girl to marry a hindu guy from another caste. IT doesn't make it right (the disapproval), but we can understand why they are behaving that way.

If we are indeed intelligent (on chowk), we should look at the matter within it's context. This is a case of clash of values. Just as the sikh father who strangled his daughter for dating a white guy, this is about a girl not following the values the parents were laying down for her. There are a lot of jahil murderous sobs like these guys who don't appreciate people who don't follow their dictates.

The question for these people is: What are you doing in a western culture if you are so damn conservative? Are you so driven by greed that you are willing to live in this land just because you are lured by money?

Re: # 133 nasah
"These days it is the goat blood that has replaced the virgin blood ..."

Bligh me!!! You mean the goat still has its hymen intact?

ohoo sattar bhaii ayyey hein....abb pagaloon kii sahi tarjumani hoskay gii..sattar bhaii koi suboot milla mirza sahab kayy eesa honayy ka yeahh talash jaarii hay?

Author,

'The word “hijab” comes from the Arabic word “hajaba” literally meaning to hide from view or conceal.'

I saw some desis but western Muslim wimmin who donned hijab but wore revealing clothes (frontal bulges partly visible) and wore jeans with meaty body curves making men drool.

This is not a frivolous argument.

Aren't they following the qoran in letter but not in spirt viz, covering their head with hijab but making concessions elsewhere which the 1400 yr old Qoran had not envisaged?

anil ji, hamidm has made the matter far more complex than they really are. ALL that matters in this case, and in every other case, is whether Allah said something or not. The rest is