The Good Monster: Musharraf's Cultural Legacy

Another well written article Nadeem.

Although I am not from the socialist communist or whatever other ideology you adhere to, I am a keen and ardent supportor of the grassroots movement taking root in Pakistan to have Musharraf become president for life.

If Cuba can have Fidel
Libya can have Qaddafi
Palestine had Arafat
Venezuala can have Hugo Chavez (almost)
Bolivia can want Evo Morales

Why can Pakistan not have Musharraf as a life long dictator? Yes, I am not sugar coating anything. He would be a beloved and forward looking dictator. The results would either be prosperity or a bloody revolt that would throw out the complete elite institution! A win-win in either case.

That's why I am supporting this grassroots movement, and perhaps, so should you!

"A military dictator’s cultural impositions actually gave birth to a newborn sense of democracy."

Maybe true to a certain extent, but perhaps a greater contributor has been the internet providing easy acess to ideas and information floating around the globe.

Can i get some fries with this musharaf-kiss-ass-carnival puhleez.....nfp u r putting mushahid ganja 2 shame .....2 bad that Q still won't give u a time of day..cause u r just not talented..stop embarrassing urself

Yes it is amazing -- isn't it -- such an uncultured dictatorship can bring so much culture to the culture-deprived youth of Pakistan -- especially by muzzling the uncultured fundamentalist channels like the GEO TV.

I think Musharraf sahib has flooded the hapless country with so much culture through his Cultural Emergency -- it may drown after that "free fair" cultured election.

GEO Musharraf GEO -- paanch keya duss saal aur GEO -- "nau arzoo mein kut gaye duss intezaar meiN".

Long live Musharraf!

Musharraf President and dictator for life!

Pakistan Zindabad!

Nadeem, I do not understand the Pakistani art scene well enough to comment on this piece, but it represents an interesting change of pace from you. Interesting parallels between ZAB and the Mushy! Historically, many absolute monarchs – whatever the merits or demerits of their reign – have proved to be genuine patrons of arts. Perhaps in some little corner of his heart, the Mushy does believe in the freedom of expression – as long as it does not get in the way of other khaki-rules-the-roost expediencies!

"There are no plans to end curbs on Pakistan's private television channels with the lifting of the state of emergency" (Musharraf)

A 'timely' article indeed -- more culture to you NFP.

{In 1995 he {Imran Biyan Khan)denounced the West with its "fat women in miniskirts" (presumably the skinny ones in miniskirts Khan had dated were okay}
{ Khan Artist
Imran Khan, the man who sparked the Newsweek riots: Islamist politician by day, London playboy by night.}
{One charge constantly raised against Khan is that of hypocrisy and opportunism, especially in light of his vociferous criticism of President Musharraf after having supported his military takeover in 1999.}
{During his days as a cricketer, when he was once romantically linked to Susannah Constantine,[34] Khan was known as a London socialite and playboy.}
{Khan allegedly has an out-of-wedlock daughter, born a few years before his marriage, with British heiress Sita White, daughter of Gordon White, Baron White of Hull. He has denied paternity but a judge in the U.S. ruled him to be the father of Tyrian Jade White after he failed to appear for a DNA test}

Surprising there is no comparison of Musharraf with Kemal Attaturk. Mushy is a dwarf compared to him any way, so it is not surprising that there is no comparison of Musharraf with Kemal Attaturk

Re: # 9 Muqaddam
Actually there is a very apt comparison between AtaTurk and Musharraf. Both truned out to be highly polarizing figures in the history of their countries.

I do not think it is his cultural legacy. English newspapers were always more liberal due to the limited readership they have. So no change here. As for the vernacular press, it has been sieged many times.

Pakistani fashion designers like Bhatti etc had already made their mark abroad while Zia was still in power. Cultural liberation if you call it that way came in the form of girls wearing jeans and vests on TV, removal of dupatta and lowering of necklines.

Fashion shows were even then held but in confined and selected environments.

As for electronics media; a need was felt to counter Indian channels like Zee News, Sahara and Star world, During Kargil it was felt that PTV was just not up to it. So this media growth owes much more to a policy contour than to any conscience effort. It was also about generating more revenues and providing jobs to youngsters etc.

I do not understand what Cultural Revolution is Paracha talking of. If he implies rave parties etc, then its a different story.

Cheerios

Even though I’m not such a huge Mushy fan, but this is one of the most well written and sincere portrayal of at least the cultural aspect of Mushy’s dictatorial legacy. Well done NFP.

Re: # 12

Ijaz Gul Saheb,I did not see the word “cultural revolution” mentioned in this article at all. Wonder where you’re coming from? As I see it, by cultural legacy I think Paracha is commenting more on the culural implication’s of Mushy’s rule on the politics of urban, middle-class Pakistan.

A truly 'hands-on' write-up in his delightful style [NFP has been very contributive in "revival" of the cinema, and quite a voracious commentator on the 'culture-bug' of our younger generation.]
I personally agree that PM has been 'enthusing' our 'art lovers', encouraging a 'softening' of the veneer of unwanted, harsh conservatism in personal mores!
Thank you for your usual - and 'prancy' - read, NFP!

musharraf's culture: lie from sunrise to sunset. cling to your position until dragged away weeping and crying. joke about rape, than lie and claim you never joked. let mullahs loose on the population, and stop only when a foreign government pulls your ears. send armed men out to kill peaceful demonstrators.

musharraf represents "culture" no doubt - the culture of lies and deceipt and self-glorification.

The part about ZAB is true since ZAB successfully achieved a durable popularity of folk culture and celebration of ethnic identities / languages plus respectability of local dress etc. in place of mimicking of kala saheb/gora saheb as in Ayub's time.

musharraf on the other hand tried to reverse the entire national identity through loot sale of mass-produced off-the- shelf 'enlightened moderation', and by his first official family photograph looking more like a debauched filipino vacationing in Hawaii than a Pakistani.

But for that, he had Lal Masjid, Waziristan and Swat (in that order), and yet to come is his being dragged in the streets (or whatever remains of him Falluja contractors' style) in lounge suit and all.

hey nadeem,

your best in a long time.

cheers,

shandana

NFP - very correct - and there are not many who can see this. Indeed, there are not many on chowk itsself who have seen this development.

Mushy has been good for the chattering classes, and the artsy-pansy types. BUt they themselves have risen to bite the hand that feeds them.

maybe Zia had it correct afterall, and the mullahs (who hate the artsy-fansy types and would like to hang them all in the name of religion) have the correct idea - atleast from a self-preservation point of view...

Can’t really predict the kind of legacy he will leave, but we owe it to him to name some of our national landmarks after his highness. Naming a Rape Denial Center after Mushy will be a good sign of expressing our National Pride in him, just as we have honored our previous dictators by naming our Motorways and Airports after them. In Sargodha right next to our house is a Zia Barbar Shop. Near Bomb wala chowk. Culture my ass.

....musharraf's biggest achievement was appointing competent financial experts in major areas, and then giving them the freedom to operate.....which kept pakistan from falling off a cliff.....

......in the area of culture, all he did was to not re-implement zia's policies, and not control the media......the media and society in pakistan had matured to a point, where the freedom of press would have burst out anyways.....

......the tv. channels etc. are actually not a part of media independence....people don't set up tv channels for th love of freedom of information.......they set them up to make money.....they are businesses......as are newspapers etc.....as are fashion shows, for that matter......

........so the tv channels etc. were an off-shoot of a good economic policies......

........unfortunately, musharraf has over-written all of this with what he has done to the judiciary......countries with strong judicial systems are successful, always........countries with a lot of cultural events, are neither here nor there.......

the day pakistan has a strong legal system is that day everything will prosper.......it almost happened......perhaps it still can happen.....

DashDot #18 "BUt they themselves have risen to bite the hand that feeds them."

I think you are confusing cause and effect - Mush was given his uniform, monthly pay, and soldiers to command by the Pakistani nation. It is this scoundrel who turned and bit the hand that fed him.

Re: # 20

Romair:

Musharraff has done more than get competent experts. He has dealth with the U.S. much better than any other Pakistani leader of the past (Jinnah not included). He struck a balance in Islamic traditions and empowering women. Neither war on terror, nor pressures from the U.S. and the west crushed Pakistan. He bore the brunt. For example, the U.S. would want A. Q. Khan, which would have been disastrous internally. He took the pressure. Like it or not, he also help change Pakistani mindset away from Kashmiri issue. Although, neither he, nor Shaukat Aziz could deliver MFN to boost trade and commerce.

I would give him A as a leader.

Re: # 22

Anil, good to hear a voice of reason in all this madness.

I have already alerted people to the grassroots movement in Pakistan to have Musharraf become prez for life. Please see the following article on AllVoices.com that confirms this.

http://www.allvoices.com/rumors/28277

Re: # 23

Thinking Storm maulana sahib:

Aap tou lagta Thinking Storm nahin, Thinking Hurricane hain. Paun zameen par hi rahne dijiye. Aage apki marzi. Mushkil ho gayegi bahut, agar apka rumor wala Thinking Hurricane shuru hogaya.

testing...

The miserable chowk staff had banned me again, they think that by censoring me they can make their own BS more credible, they are sadly mistaken.

Now, regarding this retard Paracha who is comparing ZAB with the sob Musharraf, a people's prime minister with a tin pot dictator, we should certainly be outraged. But outrage can be shown against people who have half a brain and this dimwit, whose "liberalism" goes just as far as sex and rock and roll knows next to nothing about culture and legacy. Musharraf's legacy is the same as that of the Zia ul Fcuk. Both are submitting to the cultural demands of the US elite as they submit to them. Zia's era required the Jihadis to be seen as freedom fighters therefore the entire culture had to be molded to achieve that end, now fighting the "war on terror", they are to be seen as backward barbarians and so we see fake claims of enlightenment and "freeing" the media as if people talking their mind is some kind of privilage that only Musharraf and Chowk Staff can allow and disallow (and we found how fake it was recently when all segments of Pakistani society were treated as dogs and pigs by this son of a swine who parades around as an 'enlightened moderate'. Those who support this sob, Musharraf (who is now quite powerless compared to the past) are themselves dogs and pigs.....

anil: a leader inspires others. musharraf inspires only contempt with his self-aggrandisement, constant lies, and irresponsible behavior.


as for the rest of what you write - how do you know an elected leader would not have done better? zia had the US dancing to his tune e.g. - contemptuously rejecting amounts offered by the US government as "peanuts" and getting much better terms in the afghan-soviet war. does that make zia a "leader"? i dont think so!!

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in #28 read "as present that as if" as "and present that as if "

masadi: bhai aap kaan or naaq say har waqt dhoonaN kyoon nikalta rahta hai? you'll give yourself a heart attack - that is all you'll do with your constant anger.

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Musharaff is the prototypical PAkistani contradiction - he loves hindu pagans , yet would like to be a kafir hater momeen....he would attack indians in kargil.......and see the futility of the kafir hatred the next day....

#31 masadi: so you are "going all the way to the top". this makes you no better than musharraf. At a time when thousands of brave Pakistanis are rising above themselves to save their nation from dictatorship - you can only talk about how great you and your ideas (what are they? that everyone is a fool except you??) are!!

try to learn from these thousands of Pakistanis - and understand that this is a time to think about Pakistan. Not about yourself.

and no - it wssnt me who flagged your post below. when i flagged your post last time, i told you about it.

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And yes, I am going all the way to the top, even though miserable fools like you detest it. I will not settle for what the US elite hands out to our people and I will not settle for the hierarchy they have forced on the world...all the way to the top, that is where I am headed, regardless of your detestation of those that don't submit to your "gods"...

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masadi: NOW i flagged your post so chowk staff, after I stopped reading when you started abusing me.

As for being a "miserable, spineless, fool" - it is you who is always miserable and abusing people on chowk, not me. it is you who abuses people like a coward on the internet, not me. as for being a fool - i plead guilty to that, for wasting my time trying to reason (per my post below) with a proven basket case like you.

Last post to you on this board.

you think you can fool people here with your fake sensibilities even as you advocated the destruction of Iraq in order to "save" it and were all nostalgic about British colonization of India, and deliberately try to "pass over" US meddling that has destroyed Pakistan and taken the soul out of our people. You think you can fool the people, but you as the US elite do not realize that the people of Pakistan are waking up and now understand these shenanigans. They will not tolerate them, nor will they tolerate the US occupation force or its meddling come another martial law. You can keep flagging me but the people will "flag" you because now they know their enemies....

Masadi #35,

***** And yes, I am going all the way to the top......all the way to the top, that is where I am headed*****

Utterly and completely despised Masadi,

True words from you after a long time.

Abb aap ke oopar jaane ka waqt aa gaya hai.

As soon as the coalition forces start cleansing Pakistan, all rabid dogs shall be shot on the streets.

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anil #22: "I would give him an A as a leader..."

...anil, you would give him an A as a leader because he has done what you wanted him to do in dealing with the two entities that are important to you - USA and India....

....however a leader should be rated on what he has done for the country he is leading; not for other countries....if Manmohan Singh does what i want him to to do vis-a-vis pakistan, i might give him an A as a leader......but that is immaterial, because he is not leading pakistan.....similarly musharraf is not leading india or usa......

.........he has one success to his name, which is bringing in competent people to run the economy.......lets take a look at other items....

1. usa - pakistan's us policy is quite messed up now......the usa is forcing pakistan to bomb its own citizens, much against the will of its own citizens.....this has resulted in pakistan becoming the second largest recepient of regular suicide bombings......with one half of the country fighting th other half.....doesn't matter what the usa thinks, suicide bombings are surely not in pakistan's interests....niether is such polarization.......

2. india - pakistan does not have an india policy anymore......india has not budged a single inch on its stances.....pakistan has bent over backwards and has received nothing in return........india wanted status quo, which is what it has gotten......how is that a success for pakistan?.......it is a success for india....put the shoe on the other foot......if india agreed to pakistan's demands, and pakistan kept its status quo for india......would that be a success for india?......according to paksitanis, it would make manmohan singh an excellent leader......but i doubt indians would agree......

3. judiciary/legislature/executive.....all three institutions are destroyed.....thoroughly destroyed......the army is running the executive.....60-70% of the best and brightest judges have resigned......and the legislature is (and will be in the future) filled with the same corrupt faces that have run the country for decades......

musharraf's first three years were a succcess......he should retired then, and would have gone down as a hero....his last few years have been huge disasters.....and i believe, irrepaiarable disasters for pakistan.......

but yes, if one is an american or an indian, then i can see that he has done what the citizens of those two countries are interested in......much of it at the expense of pakistan, and much of it because he had no other choice, if he wanted to maitain his own personal survival.....

the next five years will either be the old status quo, or hugely turbulent; neither of which are good for pakistan.....

pakistan should have a hands-off neutral foreign policy vis-a-vis usa, otherwise it will face the same blowback as it did in supporting usa in the first afghan war......pakistan should open trade with india, but negotiate on all other foriegn policy issue in a complete give-and-take manner......

it is doing exactly the opposite......though i think it is too weak to really do anything else......

Romair sahib,

(which is bringing in competent people to run the economy.......)

To what extent was Pakistan's recent economic upturn since 2001 owing to extraneous events- global economic upturn, financial support as part of WOT, inflow of Arab money fleeing USA- and how much to own good management of GoP. In your opinion of course.

(pakistan does not have an india policy anymore......)

Does Pakistan reall have a choice now? Wouldnt it be better for Pakistan to simply give up on Kashmir (without officially giving up its claim) and simply normalise relationships without a quid pro quo. Do you really expect India to give up an inch of land in J&K, without being thoroughly defated on the battlefield.

(all three institutions are destroyed...)

Yes, but post 12/15 and elections dont you see a gradual recovery in all three? Especially if the winners of the election- PMLN and PPP (assuming free and fair elections) restore SC as on 11/2.

Regards

Re: # 42 Majumdar
Pakistan does not have a claim on Kashmir; Kashmiris do. Kashmir is not the ancestral property of any leader in Pakistan for them to keep or give away to whoever they please.

I agree that Pakistan should give up its claim on Kashmir.

And India should give up the idea of normalizing relations without first resolving the Kashmir problem.

Viqarm sahib,

(Pakistan does not have a claim on Kashmir; Kashmiris do.And India should give up the idea of normalizing relations without first resolving the Kashmir problem.)

If Pakistan does not have a claim on Kashmir as you very correctly point out, why should India be required to "resolve the Kashmir" for normalising relations with Pakistan.

(Kashmir is not the ancestral property of any leader in Pakistan for them to keep or give away to whoever they please.)

Precisely. So we agree that:

Pakistan should walk out of POK & NA as it is not their ancestral property anyways.
Pakistan should just look the other way and not interfere in how the Injuns and Kashmiris sort out their mutual disputes.

Regards

#43 by viqarm

And India should give up the idea of normalizing relations without first resolving the Kashmir problem.

Viqar yaar, India can do fine even without normalizing its relations (as events pre-2002 have proved), but can Pakistan afford it? A hostile Afghanistan to its west and a hostile India to its east can mean the end of roads for Pakistan. Mushy realized it which is why he tried his best to calm the eastern front. India only reciprocated, because peace was a bonus that could accelerate India's growth even further.

I think Pakistan history per NFP should be written anew with Before Musharraf (BM) -- and After Musharraf (AM).

9 years BM -- there was no culture in Pakistan -- it was
an Ahad-e Jahiliya -- when they would bury the culture alive as soon it was born a female.

9 years AM there is this Heaven of Emergency -- that allows the culture to grow and reach even its infancy.

May be -- Before Musharraf there was no Pakistan either!

Re: # 44 Majumdar Sahib,
India should resolve Kashmir problem because it is occupying, and forcing itself, on the Kashmiris by military means. I am absolutely certain in my mid that Kashmiris do not wish to be part of India.

And when I said that Kashmir is not the ancestral property of any leader in Pakistan, I did not mean thereby that it is therefore the ancestral property of someone in India.

Viqarm,

Even if JK is not the ancestral property of any Indian between the two of us we have established that Pakistan has nothing to do with J&K.

Even if I agree with you that India is occupying J&K (which I assure you is not the case) why is that a problem with Pakistan?

Regards

Re: # 45 Harish Sahib
"Viqar yaar, India can do fine even without normalizing its relations (as events pre-2002 have proved), but can Pakistan afford it?".

Absolutely it can. Let there be no doubt whatsoever in this matter in the mind of any Pakistani. When India denied Pakistan its share of resources and money at Partition, do you think they expected that it will be still existing and tottering along 60 years later, even become a nuclear weapons state?

Nations with dignity pay what price they have to in order to take a stand for principles. Now I realize that the govt of Pakistan has been very short in the dignity department; the same is, however, not true for all its citizens, not yet anyway.

After dedcades of absolute misery, the poor Afghans can still stand up and fight with primitive weapons against the occupiers of their country. Why do you imagine that Pakistanis can't do it?

There is no excuse for Pakistan (and for Pakistanis) to not support Kashmiris for their just rights, in whatever way they can.

Re: # 48 Majumdar Sahib
Pakistan is vey much a party to the Kashmir dispute, even as Kashmir is not its property. Neither is it India's.

I think that Pakistan will feel a little easier about your assurances if there weren't 600K Indian troops on permanent holiday in the Kashmir valley against the wishes of the Kashmiris. Why do you think Pakistan does not need that kind of military presence on its side of Kashmir.

Viqarm sahib,

(Pakistan is vey much a party to the Kashmir dispute)

How? If we have established that Pakistan has no claim to J&K, how is it a party to the dispute?

(Neither is it India's.)

Here you are wrong. JK signed the IofA in 1947 and has been regularly participating in elections since then.

(if there weren't 600K Indian troops on permanent holiday in the Kashmir valley against the wishes of the Kashmiris.)

You guys recall your havayoons who are spreading terror in J&K, we will do so. We have no desire to keep so many soldiers in J&K.

(Why do you think Pakistan does not need that kind of military presence on its side of Kashmir.)

Why does Pak need troops there? Has India starting infiltrating jihadis into POK and NA?

Regards

#49 by viqarm

Let there be no doubt whatsoever in this matter in the mind of any Pakistani. When India denied Pakistan its share of resources and money at Partition, do you think they expected that it will be still existing and tottering along 60 years later, even become a nuclear weapons state?

Yaar you are comparing apples and oranges. Pakistan in those days didn't face an existential threat. India wasn't about to gobble it up - neither were there western powers breathing down its neck nor was there a dangerous threat from internal non-state actors. Pakistan today is slightly more sovereign than Puerto Rico, but that's about it.

Nations with dignity pay what price they have to in order to take a stand for principles. Now I realize that the govt of Pakistan has been very short in the dignity department; the same is, however, not true for all its citizens, not yet anyway.

Yaar Pakis (most anyway) no doubt are a dignified lot, but principles alone cannot help a nation survive. All nations, howsoever powerful make compromises and the less powerful they are, the more compromises they end up making. Germany and Japan swallowed their humiliation at the hands of the allies only to emerge among the most developed nations today. There is a lesson in it for Pakistan, don't you think?

After dedcades of absolute misery, the poor Afghans can still stand up and fight with primitive weapons against the occupiers of their country. Why do you imagine that Pakistanis can't do it?

Yaar the Afghans are born to fight - warfare is their bread and butter. A wolf with stripes painted on it will not change into a tiger. Similarly Pakis (Indians too) cannot fight indefinitely and remain unaffected because we are probably more endowed with brain than brawn. Oops, my comparison of Pakis with Indians is bound to ranke a few Pakistan...but what the heck!

Ooops...typo...should have read "rankle a few Pakis"

I think NFP should be counted amongst such journalists as Ahmed Quraishi (who?) the one of 'plan to topple Pakistan military' article fame. I mean NFP is leaving behind AG Abdul Qayoom in bending over backwards to find a needle in haystack to praise Musharraf and which is not even a needle but some dried piece of dog shit.

Re: # 51

Majumdar Sahib,

"How? If we have established that Pakistan has no claim to J&K, how is it a party to the dispute?".

On the basis of the priciple of the partitioning of the subcontinent, and the UN acceptance of the right of self-determination for Kashmiris, and the desire of the Kashmiris themselves to determine their future (which may result in special relationship with Pakistan or India or both).

What I have suggested is that neither India nor Pakistan have any claim to Kashmir. Now since India has imposed itself on Kashmir on the basis of "might is right" it is kinda ludicrous to expect Pakistan to simply pack its bags and go home.

"Here you are wrong. JK signed the IofA in 1947 and has been regularly participating in elections since then".

Sorry, I am not wrong. that IofA was signed by a puppet administration. If it was that clear-cut, UN would never have accepted the right of self-determination for the Kashmiris.

"You guys recall your havayoons who are spreading terror in J&K, we will do so. We have no desire to keep so many soldiers in J&K".

Our havayoon provide whatever support they can to the Kashmiri fighters in the struggle for their rights. And since we do not consider J&K to be Indian territory, I don't know why India is upset about it.

"Why does Pak need troops there? Has India starting infiltrating jihadis into POK and NA?".

If you can find Kashmiris willing to come and fight with Pakistanis in POK, feel free to do so.

After all you do infiltrate whoever you can find into Baluchistan and NWFP. I am sure it isn't due to your angelic disposition that you avoid doing the same in Kashmir.

Viqarm sahib,

(right of self-determination )

How about extending it to the people of Pakistan first? And incidentally what about Army occupation of FATA, as Zee sahib would inform you that's against the terms and conditions on which FATA acceded to Pakistan.

(it is kinda ludicrous to expect Pakistan to simply pack its bags and go home.)

Why can't Pak just pack its bags and go home? After all it is not their ancestral property anyway. Besdies since the UN (whom you are referring to) does not think it necessary to intervene, why shud Pak?

(Our havayoon provide whatever support they can to the Kashmiri fighters)

The Americans are killing far more Momins in Iraq and A'stan, their services are more required there.

(And since we do not consider J&K to be Indian territory, I don't know why India is upset about it.)

But India does consider J&K to be Injun territory so it has a right to object.

(After all you do infiltrate whoever you can find into Baluchistan and NWFP.)

I think you are right about B'stan. Injuns do occasionally do some karnamas there but that is mainly in retaliation to J&K. This is wrong and shud stop immediately after Pak stops meddling in J&K.

Regards

Re: # 52

Harish bhai,
"Yaar you are comparing apples and oranges. Pakistan in those days didn't face an existential threat. India wasn't about to gobble it up - neither were there western powers breathing down its neck nor was there a dangerous threat from internal non-state actors. Pakistan today is slightly more sovereign than Puerto Rico, but that's about it".

Yaar, I think Pakistan was facing an existential threat even then. Why do you think Nehru was privately giving it six months to survive before total collapse?

Now it is certainly true that Pak is in an unenviable bind today, mostly of its own doing (though the ill will of our Indian and Western friends cannot be minimized). And I am not going to thump my chest and say that we will beat the odds stacked against us blah blah blah, knowing the moral caliber of our Punju lot.

But I will stick my neck out and say that we have an even chance provided we believe in ourselves and do right by all our fellow citizens.

"Yaar Pakis (most anyway) no doubt are a dignified lot, but principles alone cannot help a nation survive. All nations, howsoever powerful make compromises and the less powerful they are, the more compromises they end up making. Germany and Japan swallowed their humiliation at the hands of the allies only to emerge among the most developed nations today. There is a lesson in it for Pakistan, don't you think?".

Yaar, personally, I do not believe in mere existence and survival at whatever cost. If it be God's Will that we do not survive then so be it.

Germany and Japan are not muslim societies. They can live with the compromises they had to make when they were totally defeated. In the case of Pak, I think they will avoid outright war with any external forces as best as they can (one hopes). But if war does find its way into our courtyard anyway, then all bets are off. Don't expect the havayoons to surrender quitely. It will be one big burning Afghanistan right at the Indian borders for ages to come; that is if some hothead on either side of the border doesn't discover the nuclear trigger first while inebriated with whiskey.

"Yaar the Afghans are born to fight - warfare is their bread and butter. A wolf with stripes painted on it will not change into a tiger. Similarly Pakis (Indians too) cannot fight indefinitely and remain unaffected because we are probably more endowed with brain than brawn. Oops, my comparison of Pakis with Indians is bound to ranke a few Pakistan...but what the heck!".

Yaar woh ek zamaanay mayN hamaaray des mayN ek khabti shaa'er hota thaa; voh kehta tha ke:

"apni millat par qayaas aqwaam'e maghrib se na kar

khaas hae tarkib mayN Qaum'e rassol'e haashmi".

Yaar the problem is that the poor Afghans aren't the only ones afflicted with the desire for freedom at all costs ... Sad, but what can we do?

Re: # 56 Majumdar Sahib,
I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory.

I am sorry, but I honestly hope to God that Pak will never pack its bags and go home, simply because J&K is not Pak's (and India's) ancestral property.

Regarding your assertion about the right of self-determination in Pak itself, certainly it is the right of all citizens to be treated with justice. Internal differences in Pak are because of injustice but, so far, no part of the present Pak has asserted the right to self-detrmination and secession from the country. Now if it does come to that, and they are morally justified, then certainly it should be supported. In spite of repeated setbacks, I remain optimistic that sooner or later moral sense will prevail and the grievances of the various regions will be redressed.

BTW, do you know of any accepted UN resolution where a part of Pak is claiming the right of slef-determination?

I am sorry to say that even if Pak meddling in Kashmir stops - and I hope it doesn't - there will, at best, be cold peace between the two countries. Nothing more.

Viqarm sahib,

(It will be one big burning Afghanistan right at the Indian borders for ages to come)

You underestimate the resilience of Pakistan. Pakistan will not become another A'stan notwithstanding the fondest wishes of its Injun detractors and its own Islamist citizens!!!

(Yaar the problem is that the poor Afghans aren't the only ones afflicted with the desire for freedom at all costs ... )

I am afraid the only Pakis who are desirous of "freedom" are the Pushtoons and maybe baloch. Sindhi, Punjus and Mojos are nowhere near as desirous as you imagine them to be.

Regards

Viqarm sahib,

(do you know of any accepted UN resolution where a part of Pak is claiming the right of slef-determination?)

No and I wasn't referring to any either. I was referring to Pak's occupation of FATA in violation of the agreement under which FATA acceded to Pak. Please consult Zee sahib for details. Besides UN's resolution also calls for Pak Army's withdrawl from POK, has Pak done that?

(even if Pak meddling in Kashmir stops - and I hope it doesn't -)

You guys have meddled in kashmir and A'stan and see where that has got you. But if you still want to meddle feel free to do so!!!

(there will, at best, be cold peace between the two countries.)

I will be more than happy with that.

Regards

Its a question of belling the cat.

But before belling it, we need to find out

(a) the type of cat
(b) the size of the cat
(c) the nature of the cat
(d) the current status of the cat
(e) a volunteer who is willing to bell the cat (even before studying the above)
(f) a volunteer to follow (e) after the said volunteer has got mauled. (following (a)-(e)

So far musharuff has been the (e). BiBi-10% and Nawaz are now trying to edge themselves into (f)......and Tahmed32 and others are the chorus line here!

Re:viqarm#58
Pakistan can barely manage to govern what it has today, let alone ask for more. NWFP and Baluchistan are war zones. Suicide bombers are killing dozens every other day. Every ethnic group hates the other. Religious sectrianism has reached absurd levels. After 60 years, you still dont have a proper system of administration with orderly transition of power - whether it be democratic or not. Supreme court judges are dismissed, elections are a farce, media gets clamped down, army is out of control, decisions require US blessings. Kya Mazaak bana rakha hai? Basically your country is just one giant farce and a laughing stock now. Its a failed state.

You want to add Kashmir to that? What future will you offer them? Even if it happens by some miracle, after two days of 'allah o akbar' the Kashmiris will realize their disasterous situation. The grass may look greener on the other side based on religious emotions but the conditions of the NWFP, Baluchistan and Sindh are a good indicator of what would happen to Kashmir.

Its hight time that you guys grasp the power equation in the subcontinent. India is far ahead now in all aspects of life - economic, political, social, military power, cultural, you name it. You need to change your policies in that context if you want to remain competitive in any manner. That can happen by throwing out the last 60 years of rhetoric and focus on stronger economic ties so that you can also participate and benefit from India's economic growth. Politically you should focus on a EU like scenario with free movement of people and goods. At least that way you will have a chance to visit Kashmir and see its sights. Otherwise, you have no chance since India is perfectly happy in pulling ahead from Pakistan and letting the status quo go on forever.

#57 by viqarm

Yaar, I think Pakistan was facing an existential threat even then. Why do you think Nehru was privately giving it six months to survive before total collapse?

Viqar bhai, it was Nehru's opinion and nothing more. Do you seriously think his opinion constituted an existential threat to Pakistan? But today the threat is real. America is breathing down its neck. Iran and Afghanistan are hostile to it and India is at best waiting and watching before it can take the plunge.

Germany and Japan are not muslim societies. They can live with the compromises they had to make when they were totally defeated.

Again this notion that Pakistan is different by virtue of being Muslim are at best romantic ideas that have no place in the cutthroat world of realpolitik. I think folks such as Iqbal, Faiz and the others drilled such delusions through their patriotic songs among Paki minds, which are great to listen to at independence day parades and functions, but are of little value elsewhere. Pakistan has believed too seriously in such notions and embarked on reckless misadventures with almost all of its neighbors and beyond with the result that other nations think nothing of poking their noses deep into Pakistan without hurting Paki sensibilities. If Pakistan today is in such a soup, it is precisely because of the delusions of grandeur nurtured amongst its leaders and also an extent the public. I sincerely hope for Pakistan's own sake that Pakis come out of this delusion.

Re: # 56 Majumdar Sahib,
I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory

I do not know if I should laugh or cry at this rather naive statement.

60 years of Kashmir Banega Pakistan, and 60 years of Jihad, has not changed anything - not even a few cms on the LOC. It has almost bankrupted Pakistan 2 or 3 times (and if it were not for the Yankee Largesse (to Zia and Mush)) it would have been no better than Somalia by know. That it is heading in that direction now is something which every right thinking Pakistani must be more worried about than Kashmir.

Even Bangladesh, which was rendered a basket case because of the Pakistani policies, and it subsequent annihilation of the Bangladeshi intellectual class in 1971, is performing much better than pakistan - in that it is now able to afford better
(a) health care
(b) education
(c) opportunities
to its citizens. The latest Cyclone disaster is a case in point. The recovery is quicker than before and it will keep getting better.

And you are worried about what is happening in some other country.

Has Pakistan not learnt that "it has not taken the thekka " of the muslim world world. The muslim world does not give a flying fcuk for what happens to Pakistan and Pakistanis. Stop worrying about the world and start worrying about Pakistan. This is what Mush-e-ruff tried, and has done up to a point. I wish he continues for a few more years so that he can change the situation for the better. He has stopped the rot (not entirely, but made it more manageable) and he needs time to rectify the ills.

#58 Posted by viqarm on December 12, 2007 11:59:22 pm


I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory.


There's also the minor problem that you can't do anything about it..

wake up and smell the coffee...or don't...either way, indians don't give a shit..

Re: # 13
Love2love,
I come from a ghetto where I never learnt to read or write.You could see my profile to be doubly sure.

I began my comment by CULTURAL LEGACY.

My inference to his essay is implied in CULTURAL REVOLUTION. It is my inference because I come from the ghetto.
ok

Re: # 11

Ijaz, an interesting view. I have been watching PTV for sometime now, and ofcourse ARY, and GEO as well. What you say is true. However, the "liberal" component of the talks/discussions is limited. In the early days of the regime and early days of these channels the talks and discussions had the same song sheet, music sheet, and hymn sheet as the regime. Slowly they changed but essentially followed/toed the line. Even today, despite the hangamma over the banning they still follow the contours of the regime. What they lack is an element of intellectual depth. (I was a great of Moeed Pirzada's show on PTV - unfortunately the guests were an insult to Pirzada's nuanced questions and views).

This is in stark contrast to the Bangladeshi Channels. Where there a great deal of depth, LIBERALITY and PLURALITY of views. You will not find the same ruccous as on GEO/ARY etc but a great deal more civilised (perhaps???).

If at all there is a need for a revolution (cultural or otherwise), then it is to bridge this gap that one is needed. This is my opinion. I am wondering if this assessment is correct. (I am ofcourse discounting the the great Vernacular Language called English


(Please note: I hate and dislike the terms Vernacular, and Ethnic used by Desis to Describe WHAT IS THEIRS - mainstream for them. In fact For us Desis - Vernacular is English, and Ethnic is Western. This is a PoV, but hey, the world is not flat and the universe is not a sphere)

Dash,

Inshallah, in a generation or so there would be more Desi English speakers than English speakers anywhere else. And more English speakers than speakers of any other language in the Desh.

And hopefully all these English speakers would be gainfully employed as Peons of the West rather than flying planes into skyscrapers or making as ass of themselves on chowk.

Regards

Re: # 68 And hopefully all these English speakers would be gainfully employed as Peons of the West rather than flying planes into skyscrapers or making as ass of themselves on chowk.

you mean taking orders from the west, and accepting them as your masters. You been smoking too much bad weed these days Majumdar, that Afghani you trade with is doing the dirty on you, mate.

You need to change your dealer......

vanguard #54 " mean NFP is leaving behind AG Abdul Qayoom in bending over backwards to find a needle in haystack to praise Musharraf and which is not even a needle but some dried piece of dog shit. "

Well worth repeating.

Helllooooo, EVERYONE!
Why must we turn every post into a political 'pigwash' trough?
A fine write-up on a somewhat more beatific subject, by a commendable writer, has been turned into a silly name-calling, bad-mouthing Musharraf, fuzzy Pak-India-Kashmir'no-win/you-lose' tirade: and JELL-Os like 'masadi' [seems to be a hypochondriac!] and somewhat ruffled tahmed [hazy!], are having a field-day with their uncivility.
And, out of the hay pops 'bulleya' with his usual cynicism- dipped-in-acid, bereft of any sensible idea or statement......

#71 MateenMM: This article is in bad taste since it tries to present a lawless dictator as introducing "culture", while putting down the Pakistanis who are bravely fighting for freedom from military rule.

What do you find commendable in this writer?

Re: # 67
Dash_Dot,
Most TV Channels on news seldom discussed issues in the true perspective. Their talk shows were mostly based on day to day criticism by inviting guests from the shades in discussion. As such, they were more like discussion boards.

Perhaps one exception was Talat Hussain, who repeatedly made endeavours to take the discussions towards policy reviews but seldom succeeded. He then switched to a format in which he exclusively called analysts and scholars keeping politicians out. Though these shows created awareness, they fell on dumb ears.

Channels notwithstanding, the same divide in political parties is now applicable to mass media, judiciary and lawyers. Nusrat Javed said, ‘I have gone grey waiting for a revolution’. How right he is.

If someone has noticed, Mubbashir Luqman of Business Plus has become very vocal against government departments like land revenue and WAPDA to show criticism of the government. In fact what he is doing is to provide a substitute a la day to day travails and deflect thoughts from more serious policy matters.

I asked Beena Sarwar about the LIFAFA Culture, but she did not respond. But a chowkie who claims to be a journalist of repute laid aspersions on the credentials of people like Tammy Haq and Kamran Khan.

#72 tahmed. Exactly why I have been a bit untactful in putting [hazy!] after your name.
Why do you suppose that your 'opinion' is to be counted more than the 'opinion' of NFP, particularly if it is in sync with my [and others'] thinking??!
Be open - and hopeful for the future.....!!
"Full many a gem of purest ray serene,
The dark, unfathomed caves of ocean bear;
Full many a flower was born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air"

#72 tahmed. Exactly why I have been a bit untactful in putting [hazy!] after your name.
Why do you suppose that your 'opinion' is to be counted more than the 'opinion' of NFP, particularly if it is in sync with my [and others'] thinking??!
Be open - and hopeful for the future.....!!
"Full many a gem of purest ray serene,
The dark, unfathomed caves of ocean bear;
Full many a flower was born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air"

Tu shakh se kiyun phuta
mein shakh se kiyun toota
Manzil hai kahan teri
aye lala e seherai
Iqbal

#75 We are not talking opinions here - we are talking the brutal realities of Pakistan today: Pakistani judges have sacrificed their careers, lawyers have taken to the streets, in order to protect the rule of law in Pakistan. And Musharraf has put them behind bars. The murderers of peaceful demonstrators on May 12 roam free, while the dictator who sent armed men to kill them thinks Pakistan owes him the presidency. And these are just a few examples of the lawless behavior I mentioned.

I am very hopeful for the future - because character is what gives a nation a future. And the Pakistani nation has shown great character in refusing to allow this man to become another Hosni Mubarak, dictator for life. So, Pakistan's future is bright. It is the future of this dictator and his henchmen that is already mud - and their name will remain mud in history.

No stilled voices do I hear,
No forlorn faces my eyes do seek,
No slender arms bind me in warm embrace:
The ever-mourning winds of sorrow,
Sighing through chasms of dark hollows,
Blowing away misty mirth,
Setting adrift golden rays of waning sun;
Oh, Heavens! Suffuse me in your fulsome glow,
Carress me with streaks of silvery rays.....

Re: # 41

Romair and Tahmed Sahib:

Leader is simplest definition that I have found that a Leader is "Someone who with a group does more than what the group or the person can do alone."

There is ample evidence that Musharraff has delivered. Yes, I will not deny that my conclusion and rating might be biased. Please tell me, do you honestly believe that Pakistan without Musharraff would have been better with other alternatives - Benazir and Nawaz - on all the counts you mention? If you do not believe so, then why set a higher bar for Musharraff?

Only person I think who could come forth is this Aitzaz Ahsan. He has been jailed, confined deprived etc. etc. These things in my mind groom leaders, if they can survive. Be it in Burma, in the U.S. (Martin Luther King), be it in pre-independence India. I do not know much about him, if he has respect and following.

Mateen writes "Pakistani judges have sacrificed their careers, lawyers have taken to the streets, in order to protect the rule of law in Pakistan. And Musharraf has put them behind bars..."

He is merely trying to imitate the global dictatorship of his masters, the US elite. When world decision and consensus goes against them, they merely "fire it" like Musharraf did with the judges, form their own "coalition of the willing", stacked with corrupt, rat fart countries (like Musharraf's new judges). Global dictatorship by the US elite is what defines our era, the petty dictators merely imitate their higher masters who are their lifeline....

#77 Posted by tahmed32

... refusing to allow this man to become another Hosni Mubarak ... So, Pakistan's future is bright. It is the future of this dictator and his henchmen that is already mud ...

I wish I could share your optimism. The restriction on 3rd time PM is being lifted. All major parties are participating. Even though neither PML (N) nor PPP will form a 2/3rd majority, together they will alongwith JUI (F)/MQM/ANP.

So you can safely look forward to the scenario of the 18th amendment going through (giving legal cover to action of 3rd November) in return for PPP in the centre with BB as PM, Punjab to PML (N), NWFP/Baluchistan to JUI (F)/ANP and Sind to PPP/MQM coalition.

PML (Q) to remain in the political wilderness till another fauji arrives, and the lawyers movement (Aitezaz Ahsan) plus Imran Khan sidelined till either Musharraf leaves voluntarily or forced to leave by some unforeseen event. And the CJ? Perhaps he will form a good legal practice.

Musharraf is not going to leave and no one can make him. That reality has dawned on NS.

But a little at a time is good strategy under the circumstances. Musharraf has now become openly oppressive in the classic manner and will stoop to any lows in crushing any budding movements against him, and the military will back him all the way.

I just read the article and my response to it.
Ref: “A military dictator’s cultural impositions actually gave birth to a newborn sense of democracy. Weird, but true”.
This is neither weird nor in fact true. It is not weird because all great political revolution or work of art took their first breath during dark days of depression as a reaction against injustices of tyrant rulers of their times. The cultural impositions or impositions of any other kind had always being considered as ‘Monster’ by insightful people who worked hard against that, never succumbing to the lowest level of attaching “Good” to it. This is like giving the credit of “French Revolution” to “King Louis the Fourteenth” instead of Voltaire or Roseau or acclaiming British Imperialists for ‘Quit India Movement’.

“Though Musharraf’s cultural strategy may not have engaged the common man the way Bhutto’s policies did, however, it did have a deep impact on urban, middle-class of Pakistan”

I wonder which positive cultural policies Mr. NFP has referred to. Can he be more specific please? Karachi which was ruled by the educated middle class people in good old days of seventies has gone from bad to worse, from living to dead because of the policies of first Zia and then Musharraf. Seeds of ethnic biases which were sown during Zia’s regime bloomed into giant trees in Musharraf’s period. Musharraf’s policies like his predecessors have only reinforced the polarization among the multi-cultural society of Karachi. And the middle class of Karachi had only suffered one culture, which was and is MQM’s Gunda gerdee’. I thought hard but could not find the effect of any impact deep or superficial, because of Musharraf’s cultural strategy in middle class of Lahore, Rawalpindi, Peshawer or Quetta… Come on NFP you tried hard but really you can do better than that. Just try to enlighten us more with clarity and specificity about Mr. Musharraf’s cultural strategies in your next ‘darbari’ appraisal.

“As one section of the middle-class youth responded with newborn religiosity, the other part blossomed in their new-found freedom, with gradual economic growth witnessed by the economy making the experience that much sweeter.”

False again; Religiosity was the outcome of eleven years of Zia’s ‘Islamization’ and sustained organized political struggle of religious parties’ esp. Jamat-e-Islami. This section of people had always been in the social picture of Pakistan. But Musharraf’s slogan of ‘moderate Islam’ (which was also a borrowed term from Bush) did succeed in fragmenting the people of Pakistan, just like any other dictator. While Zia created ethnic parties to shatter unity of Pakistan Musharraf’ policy ignited the most volatile zone, Islam for the same purpose. Never in the history of Pakistan had we seen so many sects of Islam, ‘the green turbans’, ‘the white turbans’, ‘Tableegies’ etc; their extravagant ‘Ijtimas’ (religious gatherings) and lavish religious ceremonies.
And speaking of gradual economic growth, are you kidding me? Really! If by economic growth you mean mushrooming of franchisees, ‘corporate-o-cracy’ (a term by author of ‘Economic Hit Man’), privatization of our most basic sectors (telecommunication, KESC, Medical colleges and Universities) than I could just pity your insight. Because of Musharraf’s economic policies we had witnessed the exploitation of young girls and boys who were gratified with easy money/overnight fame. They were lure in fields of modeling, TV and films or were hired as waiters and escorts in multinational chains of restaurants/hotels having no solid education, merits or real hard work. Musharraf’s economic policies generated record number of ‘Up-starts’. The urban middle class youth of today is hungry for money, glamour and power. The small minority of them who really wants to acquire education by keeping their morale’s find their dreams to get shattered by the hands of corrupt, greedy professors and teachers. The educational system has collapsed completely because of the meticulously planned strategies of establishment. Whatever political awareness is left is only seen in Punjab. Musharraf’s legacy (if there is any such thing) has nothing positive or beneficial to be remembered of and surely has no comparison with Bhutto. At least Zia has given us the celebration of Independence Day as a national event but what cultural moves Musharraf’s regime made, ‘Valentines Day’, Women’s day, Mother’s day or Basant? By the way ‘Basant had always been the colorful celebration in Punjab and it has not at all reached to the masses of Karachi, Sindh, NWFP and Balochistan inspite of laborious propaganda.

There is no comparison of Bhutto’s policies to Musharraf’s .Bhutto had a clear philosophy, an ideology of its own (though unacceptable for many) but for which he struggled way before he achieved throne and he formulated his manifesto based on that principle. And Musharraf has nothing of its own, all his terms are borrowed from west like ‘soft image, ‘Moderate Muslims’ , ‘enlightened moderation’ bla bla. Musharraf is simply the abhorred puppet, a deplorable pawn for Bush’s despicable administration. Bhutto was the first ‘Awami leader’ introduced the first unisex dress ‘Awami suits’, founder of the nuclear energy plant, aspiring force behind ‘United Islamic front or the Islamic Bomb’, the craftsman behind the first constitution and what not. Bhutto’s following, his ‘Jiale’ did not belong to one ethnic group but stretched from Indus to Khyber. Aah the seventies! Those were the days of true liberalism unlike Mr. Musharraf’s phony ‘enlightened modernism’. The political awareness we are observing in youth or through electronic media today is because of those people who acquired their political maturity during seventies. Aitzaz Hassan, Asma Jehangir, executives of Geo channel like Abdul Rauf, Imran Aslam, Dr Shahid Masud, Zia Awan, Ayaz Amir, Jawaid Jabbar, Gazanfar Ali etc they all had tasted the flavor of real democracy during magical times of Bhutto. Imran Khan is the only political leader among these who attained his political maturity during present regime but then he also belonged to the same generation. The forces behind today’s political awareness had long history of struggle for social and political injustices within their small circles but internet power and booming of satellite channels sort of combined their efforts. Not only this but they have managed to spread the sense of true democracy to the poor eighties generation. The eighties generation who suffered generalized cerebral degeneration during Zia’s time is finally grabbing the meaning of civilized political movements. The eleven years of dictatorship has not wiped out the charisma of Bhutto’s five years of democratic leadership. Now this is what a real legacy is...
The time obtained by the dictators to set a good example, to create a legacy which would be cherished through ages is huge as compared to the time given to our poor elected civilian leaders but whenever Pakistani nation felt ecstasy of national pride it was incidentally during the period of civilian rule; be it the acquiring of nuclear technology, hosting of Islamic summit conference, acclaiming of fame through Pakistan TV dramas, winning of the world cup cricket title or being the first Islamic country with nuclear bomb. And trageically whenever Pakistan’s solidarity was stabbed or Pakistan was internationally disgraced, it was because of these saviors of borders, be it the ‘fall of Dhaka’, ‘the drug traffics’, the culture of Kalashnikovs, the empowering of biased ethnic groups, religious extremism or suicide bombings.




Nikhat Riaz

#82 Posted by Nikhat,

Excellent post. Thanks.

Majumdar Sahib,
"I was referring to Pak's occupation of FATA in violation of the agreement under which FATA acceded to Pak. Please consult Zee sahib for details".

I agree with Zee Sahib on this one. Pak forces need to get out of FATA.

"Besides UN's resolution also calls for Pak Army's withdrawl from POK, has Pak done that?".

Pak will have to do its part to let the plebiscite go through. What's the big deal?

"(there will, at best, be cold peace between the two countries.)

I will be more than happy with that".

Good. Then we are in agreement. That is all that I had said in the first place. Just forget about normalizing the relations.

Regards.

Re: # 62
"You want to add Kashmir to that? What future will you offer them?".

Calm down Ranjit Sahib. I am not championing the cause of adding Kashmir to Pakistan. It is for the Kashmiris to decide what they want. Prsonally I can live with an independent Kashmir.

"Its hight time that you guys grasp the power equation in the subcontinent. India is far ahead now in all aspects of life - economic, political, social, military power, cultural, you name it".

Ah ... at least I am not going to grasp any "power equation" as long as I live. You are progressing in leaps and bounds. Good for you.

"You need to change your policies in that context if you want to remain competitive in any manner. That can happen by throwing out the last 60 years of rhetoric and focus on stronger economic ties so that you can also participate and benefit from India's economic growth. Politically you should focus on a EU like scenario with free movement of people and goods. At least that way you will have a chance to visit Kashmir and see its sights. Otherwise, you have no chance since India is perfectly happy in pulling ahead from Pakistan and letting the status quo go on forever".

Good or bad, the policies of Pak are for Pakistanis to discuss and change. We haven't asked for your advice on this one.

And I am certainly not dying to visit a Kashmir in bondage.

Re: # 63
"Again this notion that Pakistan is different by virtue of being Muslim are at best romantic ideas that have no place in the cutthroat world of realpolitik. I think folks such as Iqbal, Faiz and the others drilled such delusions through their patriotic songs among Paki minds, which are great to listen to at independence day parades and functions, but are of little value elsewhere. Pakistan has believed too seriously in such notions and embarked on reckless misadventures with almost all of its neighbors and beyond with the result that other nations think nothing of poking their noses deep into Pakistan without hurting Paki sensibilities. If Pakistan today is in such a soup, it is precisely because of the delusions of grandeur nurtured amongst its leaders and also an extent the public. I sincerely hope for Pakistan's own sake that Pakis come out of this delusion".

Yaar, I do not deny that we Pakis have many faults and shortcomings. Whether we are delusional or not, time alone will tell.

Let us leave it at that, shall we?

Re: # 64 Dash_Dot
"I do not know if I should laugh or cry at this rather naive statement".

Why don't you try both and see which one works better for you.

"That it is heading in that direction now is something which every right thinking Pakistani must be more worried about than Kashmir".

But that is one of the biggest problem we have. We can't seem to figure out who is a "right thinking" Pakistani.

"Even Bangladesh, which was rendered a basket case because of the Pakistani policies, and it subsequent annihilation of the Bangladeshi intellectual class in 1971, is performing much better than pakistan".

I am not surprised. If they believe in themselves, and do what they can, they will do better.

In Pakistan we have zillions of views pulling it in all sorts of directions. Ironically the only ones who are focussed are the extremists.

"And you are worried about what is happening in some other country".

What other country are you talking about? I am thinking about Pak and its future.

"Has Pakistan not learnt that it has not taken the thekka of the muslim world world".

????

"Stop worrying about the world and start worrying about Pakistan. This is what Mush-e-ruff tried, and has done up to a point. I wish he continues for a few more years so that he can change the situation for the better. He has stopped the rot (not entirely, but made it more manageable) and he needs time to rectify the ills".

It remains debatable whether he has stopped, or compounded, the rot. Some, like me, would say he (Mush) has been busy putting the last nails in the coffin. Now it will take some doing on our part to bail ourselves out.

Re: # 65
"wake up and smell the coffee...or don't...either way, indians don't give a shit".

Oh thats fine. Indian have my permission to remain eternally constipated.

zeemax: you say "musharraf is not going to leave and no one can make him."

Mush has already left - without his wardi, he cannot order a single soldier to pick up his rifle. He as to go through the COAS (as he himself was whining about a couple of days back to the press about military "protocol"). And now time is against him - and his actions are probably now geared to savin