To Boycott or not to Boycott !

Thanks for this piece, good arguments. Abdul Wahid Baloch of National Party (which is boycotting) told a seminar in Islamabad on Dec 18 "MMA is very happy at the boycott. I met a friend from MMA who offered me a ride the other day, he was all smiles. He said, 'Thank you for having cleared the road for us'.” Here's the link to a piece I wrote for IPS on Dec 10 re the boycott issue - http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=40403

#57 Posted by bulleya on December 17, 2007 8:10:17 am


pakistan, now, is no. 2 on suicide bombing lists


So the jihadis you were threatening to sic on india 5 years ago are now killing you..


why just today i read about a 16 year old suicide bomber who whacked 12 paki army recruits..

good..serves you right..karma is a female of the canine species..

paki protestor aunties get whacked by the cops

#57 hamidm: General Romair agrees with you!! Do I need to convince you any more that you are merely blowing the standard "fauji captain hot air" by proclaiming the natives to be thieves and scoundrels?

hamidm2 mian#....your analyses on this thread about pakistan are, generally, accurate.....we are a nation of thieves, and only a bigger thief can become the president.......

in fact, all of us on chowk are here, because we or our ancestors were the bigger thieves amongst their crowds.....due to this, we have all generally enjoyed ourselves in pakistan.......regardless of who ruled, we were ok......one son in america and one in pakistan......one foot here and one there......business grew for us and we had enough reserves in our personal bank accouts to cater for emergencies.....

however, there is one thing different this time around......it is not just political issues.......now we are vulnerable also....pakistan, now, is no. 2 on suicide bombing lists.......there have been suicide bombs in kamra, sargodha bases, aap para, faizabad....a war in lal masjid, a bomb in marriot......all places that i have visited and so have you, probably......

this is new....and this is what makes the chowk class vulnerable also......it would stay planted in pakistan, regardless of who ruled, because they (we) would be in the vip lounge, regardless.......however, now the vip lounge could get blown up.......

this is the difference, this time around.........

further to #55: and no one buys mush's "its either me or the mullahs" game anymore either:

Questions for Musharraf and Bush
By John F. Tierney and Aitzaz Ahsan
Monday, December 17, 2007

Excerpt:

One of us chairs a House of Representatives subcommittee tasked with oversight of U.S. foreign policy, and one of us languishes under house arrest after transfer from a Pakistani jail for the "heinous" and "seditious" crime of representing, in legal proceedings, the sacked chief justice of Pakistan's Supreme Court.

As members of the political opposition in our respective countries and as lawyers firmly committed to the rule of law, we have a few questions for our heads of state:

...How do you expect to combat the Taliban and al-Qaeda cancer spreading from Pakistan's Federally Administered Tribal Areas into the Northwest Frontier and Balochistan provinces when the military is busy pointing its guns at judges, lawyers, journalists, political opponents and human rights advocates? ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/16/AR2007121 601563.html

Rites_of_Spring #46 Inshallah!! :-) With a growing middle class that understands the importance of the rule of law, time is against dictatorship in Pakistan and in favor of the democracy and the rule of law.

hamidm: modify what you wrote ("no, the pakis don't get it") to "no, pakis like hamidm don't get it" and we are in agreement.

The ones who dont want to get it are those who get their jollies by being able to jump the line by going through the vip lounge (the hamidms), and the arab-wannabes. But thse are a tiny minority - two-thirds of pakis do get it.

Re: # 45

tahmed mian,

....... pakistan already is a country where checks and balances are the most important thing - i.e. your bank balance and your check book ......

sheik rashid zindabad !

Re: # 49

bubba,

... after living in the civilized world for nearly three decades one gets used to standing in line ........ but don't worry, a week in pakistan and i am as pakistani as the other 170 million miserable souls ...... on the way back i always use the vip lounge and even yell at the poor attendant as if i owned the place .... but now they have a vvip lounge .. basta=rds !

Re: # 12

urstruly

We will have to lick the reality. With the amendments made in the constitution by Mush even the parliament has become irrelevant now. No question of taking out the dog with buckets. It is a real Karbala we are facing today wherein peoples' hearts are with 'Hussain' but swords with 'Yazid'. The result to come out is evident. It would need repeating the history of Bangladesh (Our Pakistan in the East) wherein the swords were also with the hearts of the people which made Tiger Niazi to lick dust on this very date. There is no other way to get the dog out, at least either by voting it out in election or by parliament .

No party should boycott this election.

Aitezaz and Imran could be a future party in the making.

Let them wait to participate in the future.

People power had seen its beginnings during ZAB's

time. We may be seeing its remergence here after

several years.

But it is best not to rock the boat at present.

Just my two cents!

Ras

Re: # 39 Posted by hamidm2 on December 16, 2007 10:04:09 am

[.....he shook his head sadly when i told him i was okay with standing in line and waiting my turn .......]

array bhai kiya baat hein aap kee aadutoun kaa. ab hum aap kee eis nayee aadut ko kiyaan maan sukhtey hein? kiya huwa bhai, kaheen ziyaada pee lee thee aap nein?

A pompous person like you standing in line and that too in a country that should be called a "haramistan". Ouper say lay kar neeche tuk saarey kay saarah 170 million pakistani namak haram chor hein, and it starts with the bayshuram military aur ein kay leaderaan, aur saaraey naukar shahee jin kay aap goun gaatey rehteh hein.

sharam kar baeta sharam kar. choroun kee taareef na kiya kar chahein woh army ho ya beigharut civilian politician ho.

#46 Posted by Rites_of_Spring on December 16, 2007 3:14:11 pm


Whether people like it or not that is eventually where Pakistan will steer to in the end- a system of checks and balances.


You already have such a system...

checks written by america to the paki army to bomb it's own people

balances..as in bank balances of the generals of the paki army that are growing and growing..

Re: # 45

tahmed,

.... sigh ! ...... we are not talking about the americans, french, japanese or germans ....... we are not even talking about the horrible hindoos .... we are talking about pakistanis - an arab wannabe people who have inherited the bad genes of the hindoos and the bad habits of the arabs ...... no, the pakis don't get it ..... we need a lot of tough love, as you call it, before we see the light .......

sheikh rashid is the best we can come up with, so lighten up and say

sheikh rashid zindabad !

@ #45

Well said tahmed32.

Whether people like it or not that is eventually where Pakistan will steer to in the end- a system of checks and balances.

hamidm: and i see you are serious in your inability to understand the meaning of checks and balances. let me help..

ever been on a highway where the break lights come on and suddenly everyone is obeying the speed limit - because there is a cop car. and this is the US. the "civilized" country where people are not thieves like in Pakistan (per your understanding).

so that is what we are talking about - countries are gradually realizing, one after another, of the importance of checks and balances. it was the US in 1776 when the constitution was explicitly created with checks and balances; the french learnt about it in 1848 (when de tocqueville's book on Democracy in America became a best seller in france); germans and japanese were given some tough love in WWII and they got it; the hindus in india figuted that maybe the brits had something to teach them in respect to politics, and they created the greatest democracy on earth (if the pakistan experience is any guide, indian muslims would probably have screwed up and brought back a jahan-panah to rule over them).

Today millions of Pakistanis get it.

One day you and others like you will also get it. Or maybe you never will.

hamidm: "everyone does it" is a dumb excuse when coming from a teenager. coming from an older person...all I can say is that i hope for your sake that you are not being serious.

Re: # 41

"Our real problem is INCOMPETENCE, unprofessional work ethic and lack of appropriate accountability."

Finally, some words of wisdom.

Re: # 36

His Royal Highness says:

"Nawaz Sharif will probably get a lot more than 30-40 seats. Over 100 in my estimate given that much of the anti-establishment vote of boycotting parties will go to him."

Now that is a keeper, we shall return to this post come election time. By the way, according to my favorite Sheikh Rasheed, the Tinda najaiz badshareef is preparing for the next elections which he expects to happen in two years time, these are just a trial run b4 the real thing.

Aur aapnay farmya:

"Remember, PPP had 63 seats in the Sind assembly against 27 of MQM. But it was MQM who made the provincial government."

Mqm formed an alliance with the Other Muslim League (Q ETC), then only were they able to form government. This may offend thee, but it was in the best interest of awam un naas.

Re: # 39 hamidm [ "...do you think it was any different during the civilian governments ? ... all this nonsense about the rule of law by people currently out of power is just for show sha .. " ]

I couldn't agree more.

Now almost approaching a year of living in Islamabad I've seen the rot and corruption first hand. There is corruption at all levels, but I have observed the civilians in authority are more corrupt then faujis. The difference, per capita, I believe is stastically significant.

But I've also concluded that corruption is NOT our main problem. It's a curse, yes, but that is not why we are as fcuked up in Phuckistan as we happen to be.

Corruption can just be seen as additional cost of doing business provided that business WAS being done in a professional and competent manner. Bharat is probably just as corrupt, but that doesn't stop them from building great pyramids of progress (in an otherwise vast desert of crushing poverty), and becoming an economic giant.

No. Our real problem is INCOMPETENCE, unprofessional work ethic and lack of appropriate accountability.

...SR

Re: # 38

fakir,

.... chitrali is just as good - we need to support our own local businessmen ...

Re: # 37

tahmed,

....... do you think it was any different during the civilian governments ? ....... most of the people being whisked through the vip lounge at islamabad airport are civilians being whisked by other civilians ....... on my last visit to islamabad my brother-in-law tried to get me 'whisked' and he is a mere civilian in the travel business who has 'connections' at the airport .....he shook his head sadly when i told him i was okay with standing in line and waiting my turn ....... like i said, we are a nation of petty thieves where everyone tries to get away with whatever he can .... most of the cars parked illegally on the kerb at the airport belong to civilian senators, mnas and someone's niece who is married to the deputy director of the arts council's third cousin .....

....... as far as the common man is concerned, being the screwee, he will get screwed whether the screwer is in uniform or mufti ..... all this nonsense about the rule of law by people currently out of power is just for show sha ..

i was talking about hashish made in mazar sharif which is top quality

#35 hamidm #33: you cannot have been serious when you wrote that. unless you really WANT to see the present system perpetuate - where civilized hamidm sahib steps off the plane, sniffs at all these natives vying for the honor of carrying your bags, or perhaps have brother general falana show up in uniform with a couple of warriors to whisk mr. hamidm through the VIP lounge without having to bother with those damned corrupt civilians at customs, while havaldar sahib runs and gets your passport stamped.

nice set up. wont last. cousin major general will one day be put in his place.

#34 Posted by hamidm2,

... why can't nawaz sharif muster more than 30-40 seats and then hang on to them ?

Nawaz Sharif will probably get a lot more than 30-40 seats. Over 100 in my estimate given that much of the anti-establishment vote of boycotting parties will go to him. But that won't make him the PM.

Remember, PPP had 63 seats in the Sind assembly against 27 of MQM. But it was MQM who made the provincial government.

The army is incharge. They will decide on the PM.

Re: # 33

tahmed,

... wake up and smell the coffee - we are talking about pakistan and not norway ! ......... it is all about personalities even on the other side - the droopy eyed cj, aitizaz ahsan, imran khan, etc......... this independence of judiciary thing is just a cover for the dog-fight between chaudary iftikhar and musharraf ....... rule of law and other such niceties are for more civilzed folks .... let's stick to reality !

Re: # 32

zeemax,

... aap kay mun mein ghee shakar ! ........ i am relieved - the thought of fazloo standing in the rose garden with that ugly yellow towel on his head was beginning to frighten me ..... but tell me one thing - why can't nawaz sharif muster more than 30-40 seats and then hang on to them ?

#31 you need to think beyond personalities. we are talking unfettered dictatorship vs. rule of law with checks and balances to individual power. not general falana vs. politician dhamkana!! as father o'leary would no doubt have told you - get a paper and pencil and try to look intelligent.

#27 Posted by hamidm2,

so who do you think is going to be the pm ?

Rest easy. It is not going to be Fazlur-Rehman. Have you stopped listening to Sheikh Rashid? It is going to be BB. The removal of third time PM restriction is being drafted but the problem is that NS will then be eligible too. As soon as that problem is resolved, BB will be PM (till it lasts i.e.).

Re: # 28

tahmed,

.... you are a hopeless romantic! ........ musharraf is not going anywhere .... i used to think that his goose was cooked, but the man has more lives than mo's cat ! ....... he is a genius and worthy of worship ....... but don't get me wrong - i would be the first one to dump him if there was a real alternative ...... somehow, qazi hussain, the drropy eyed cj and imran khan don't cut it .......... i have already wasted a couple of years supporting asghar khan .......

#28 or maybe the rising sun wont be so lucky, and will get put on the next available prisoner's dock in Pakistan.

Re: # 24

fakir,

... why go all the way to mazar sharif when you can just walk over to bari imam, my favourite islamic shrine .......

#26 hamidm: maybe the rising sun, when he is put on the next flight out of Pakistan, could give you the michigan franchise for re-selling Pakistani nukes.

or is it merely a reflex action to start salute the lal-feeta wala sahib?

Re: # 21

zeemax,

... so who do you think is going to be the pm ? .... i think if ppp gets over a 100 seats, the parliament will be able to rig someting to allow her to run for the third time ....... if not, it might even be fazloo if he is needed to cobble together a govenment ....... but with musharraf you never know - the man has a bottomless bag of tricks ........ you have to love him !

Re: # 23

tahmed mian,

........ i have always said that musharraf is a crook - not a petty thief, but a political shyster ........ and he is still the rising sun, so you should worship him until he starts to set ......... when that happens, i will be the first one to switch gods ........ shit! ... we people dumped al-lah's own daughters when we had to - musharraf is but a minor diety !

whoops, i accidentally red-flagged myself in #23. :-) sorry, chowk staff.

Re: # 22--the stuff made in mazar sharif is best for smoking.

#20 hamidm mian sahib: Like I said, we can only speak based on personal experiences. So, if you see Pakistanis are petty thieves and crooks, then my heart goes out to you for having lived a deprived childhood. May you find the strength one day to break free of these pickpocket ghosts who have so badly scarred your psyche.

btw, I see musharraf has now switched from being the rising sun you and mr. madani were advising me to bow to the other day, into a mere..er...crook. What a difference a day makes!!

And now, your rising sun is scrambling to stay out of court by editing the constitution, trying to maintain his nuisance value to the world by seeking to take direct control over Pakistan's nuclear weapons!! (Maybe, once he is kicked out of Pakistan he will take over Dr. Khan's failed "Nukes R Us Inc." business enterprises).

#20 Posted by hamidm2,

You're quite ignorant in deciphering news.

Do you know the minimum Supreme Court Judge age was reduced from 45 to 40 through a PCO order two days ago?

It was because they can't find judges to fill the Supreme Court.

Now please stop foaming at the mouth and get another Gin/Tonic :)

#19 Posted by hamidm2,

What I had said was:

... and a soft revolution can be hoped for ...

That's what I hope. Otherwise my previous statements stand of guillotine parks.

I don't agree with the rest of your post.

Re: # 15

tahmed mian,

...... how many judges turned down the offer to fill the vacant seats in the high and supreme courts ? ....... the only people protesting are those who were not offered a judgeship - like the rest of us, the lawyers are a bunch of petty thieves .... i rest my case

Re: # 17

zeemax,

... changing our tune, are we ? ........."In the end, I think whatever parliament is elected this time will not last very long, and a soft revolution can be hoped for led by the patriotic and purist forces unleashed by the actions of Nov 3rd. "

... whatever happened to the 'hard revolution' with guillotines and blood running in the streets even though it is not bakra eid !

.... i think you can save yourself a lot of heartache if you get used to the idea of benazir as pm, the chaudharies lording over punjab, fazloo running the badlands, altaph bhai as the absentee dada of karachi and nawaz sharif stuck in the 'opposition' trying to keep his few men from defecting - his party is famous for producing lotas ..... unless aitizaz ahsan manages to get out and use the droopy eyed cj as a prop to lead the unemployable lawyers in some kind of a movement, the judiciary issue is dead ....... the lums students have already gone home and the rest of civil society is back on the party circuit ......... only the qazi and imran khan are chasing this car like clueless cannines ........ what eill they do with it if they ever catch it?

..even sheikh rashid is sounding depressed - he thinks nobody will turn out to vote on election day even though he is offering free nihari -........people just don't care any more and they are also afraid of suicide bombers trying to stop this unislamic practice of voting ...... a 30% turnout combined with some minor pre-poll rigging will ensure victory for the king .........

long live king musharraf !
sheikh rashid zindabad !

In the long run if Pakistan i so be sucessful it must have the rule of law and an idependend judiciary. There are no two ways about it- even the most fie-hard Mushi supporter admits this unless they happen to be a deeply sadistic individual.

What they fail to realise is that the time is now-not later. No longer can petty excuses be used to obstruct this coming. History will not be kind to these people who oppose a prosperous Pakistan.

Cheers!

... whoever promises to reinstate judiciary should be voted for to stop Pro Musharraf getting 2/3rd majority.

That's the crux of the matter. A boycott would only have been effective if it was a joint one. A partial boycott could only serve the junta's interests in firstly gaining sufficient legitimacy, and secondly in sidelining the purist forces (PTI, Lawyers) from the political arena for the foreseen future.

PML (N) has made the right judgment. They have retained the principled/purist stand of restoration of judiciary as paramount in their manifesto, while not leaving the field open for the king's parties to play havoc with the constitution. The 17th amendment did tremendous damage, and an 18th would be an end to any aspirations for an elusive democratic rule.

In the end, I think whatever parliament is elected this time will not last very long, and a soft revolution can be hoped for led by the patriotic and purist forces unleashed by the actions of Nov 3rd.

#14 Posted by hamidm2 on December 15, 2007 7:49:42 pm


..... and why are you giving up while you still have a dog in this fight


urstruly lives in the US where dog fighting is illegal..don't want him going the michael vick way, do you?

Hamidm: While you have defined Musharraf quite well as a crook, I assume when you refer to Pakistanis as "petty thieves" you base this on personal experience.

So, when did you pick your first pocket? Who showed you the technique of picking pockets? Do you still try to cheat in movie theaters by slipping from one show into another?

Re: # 7

urstruly,

.... you fret unnecessarily ...... everything will be just fine ...... as far as i know there were no children killed in kamra, but even if they werem it is the fault of the iman-crazed followers of a barbaric ideology that will be defeated sooner than later ....... al-qaeda in pakistan will meet the same fate as al-qaeda in iraq ...... and the taliban in pakistan will also go down like the taliban in afghanistan - just hang in there ......

..... and why are you giving up while you still have a dog in this fight .... so what if he is an ugly mutt like fazloo - the man is a deobandi muslim ... what else do you want ?

#7 Posted by Urstruly on December 15, 2007 5:06:39 pm


in the shoes of the people of the cantonment of Kamra where they burried 15 school children,


So now pureland is burying kids alive? how else would you explain that in light of the fact that no kids died in the bomb blast.

Re: # 11

"The question of boycott or no boycott has become utterly irrelevant now.'

No, it is absolutely a relevant questio. As a matter of fact boycott is one of the many buckets tat are required to get the dead dog out of the well. Not boycotting will ensure that people would have no choice but to drink the water while the carcass of dog still remain in the well for any foreseeable future. Just like Husni Mubarak, the dead dog in Egyption well.

t is like a dog in the well matter. The dog has got himself in the well by the grand
rigging by getting rid of independent judiciary. Now you may take out as many buckets as you can the well water will not get cleaner unless you take out the dog. But how to take out the dog; this is the question before the nation. The question of boycott or no boycott has become utterly irrelevant now.

"“There was something seriously wrong with the chief justice of Pakistan.” (Musharraf)

of course -- without a collar there WAS "something seriously wrong" with the Dog named Dogar miaN -- but not any more -- the chief justice is ok now with a collar.

Re: # 7 Posted by Urstruly on December 15, 2007 5:06:39 pm

You are wrong. Actually, de-radicalization of muslim violent behaviors has begun and it is reported to be a huge success in Egypt, KSA, and Indonesia. One such notable is some Dr. Fazl in Egyptian jail who has renounced violence. He is considered an authority in Islamic theology, and is calling for a change of tactics.

Re: # 5 Posted by nasah on December 15, 2007 4:58:57 pm

["Mun tora haji bugoyam tu mera haji bugo" -- I will call you Haji if you call me Haji!]

I promise not to call you masadi, if you promise not to call me masadi!

Re: # 4

Its not about winning and losing anymore bewqoof insaan. Now it is all about "If I cannot live in peace, then I won't let anyone on God's green earth live in peace either". I know that you don't give a shit about the lives of Pakistani children or its citizens but just to understand the gravity of situation for one minute put yourself in the shoes of the people of the cantonment of Kamra where they burried 15 school children, with God knows how many children with lost limbs. This is the ultimate of the terror that may strike any parent or community in the world. Unlike you many of us worry and think what has brought this misery upon us all. Now tell me, is this misery going to get worst with the same thugs who caused it in the first place or not?

Does it really matter now whether a party boycotts or not? Even amongst the various parties the members are split. Some are in favor of restoring the judiciary and others couldnt care less. This struggle will continue regardless of which party wins.

Musharaf is still living the in the army house. He doesnt have the guts to occupy the president house. He knows he has played all his cards. Come on people!

"On Saturday, Musharraf swore in Abdul Hameed Dogar as the Supreme Court's chief justice."

"Mun tora haji bugoyam tu mera haji bugo" -- I will call you Haji if you call me Haji!

Re: # 2

urstruly,

does this mean that you are boycotting the election along with imran khan, tahmed and qazai hussain? ..... just adimit it, musharraf has outwitted all you guys and now all you have are unwashed people blowing themselves up to kill school children ....... do you really think these people can win ? ... a rag-tag insurgency launched by people who sleep with their sheep cannot succed unless the russians or the norwegians decide to support them .... the unemployable lawyers may be able to create some trouble but they too will soon go home after the elections ......... my biggest nightmare is mullah fazloo as preime minister - with a hung parliament, he has an even chance if musharraf needs him to form a government of his choice ...........

........ musharraf zindabad ! ......... the man is a master crook in a nation of petty thieves !

The only boycott I'm interested in at the moment is Geoffrey!
:D

I think the most shameless and amoral argument that is being touted in favor of the so-called "elections" is that "oh once we are in parliament we will take care of anti-democratic forces and if we do not take part in election it will leave the door open wide for the anti-democratic forces".

Anidemocratic forces my ass. One should ask these charlatans do they think that the rest of pakistanis are chopped liver?? Oye bewaqoofo, do you think that this dicatator and fouj is just that chutiya that they would let a parliament decide their fate and won't going to do anything about it???

The fact of the matter is that election or no election now it does not matter. An ordinary Pakistani has tasted the first taste of freedom as he has raised weapons against these enemies of Pakistan and Islam aka napak haramkhor fouj the very first time. Bengalis must have felt the same euphoria when they would have realized that this vicious oppressor the fouj and the corrupt ruling elite is not that high and mighty after all.

People! you still have a choice. Just one fact will help you realize the gravity of the bind that we all are in. In the suicide bombing at the Kamra air base last week where an airforce truck carrying school children of military families was targeted, it has resulted in death of 15 school children whereas national media is reporting that only five children were hurt. You must realize how fouj is again hiding the truth and thus gravity of situation from rest of pakistan. The fire that they were playing with so that the lives of others' children that these m/f foujis thought were not even worth that of cattle, has reached their own homes now. Do you people honestly believe that fouj with the help of these corrupt, amoral, and unprincipled politicians will someohow be able to extiguish these fires??? People!!! have mercy on no one else but yourselves and your children. Boycott this sham. Save Pakistan. Save your Children. Dump the m/f Napak fouj. SEnd laa'nat on napak fouj; they have doomed us all.

The die is already caste by USA. We do not need home and foreign ministry as have shadow ministers when america is manageing , micromanaging affairs. This all white wash for crimes of generals and corrouption done by BB and all others. All politicians and generals should be whipped and to sharks. Elections is farce and like all trgrdies is full of pathos and destined to be just like greek tragrdy all pathos. And again cycle starts with A to z ( ayub and Zia) and so onn we have heavely curse. Only sharks are fed politicians heavens may forgive us otherwise again A to Z.