Islam as a political weapon in Pakistan

A correction:

Please read 'of the Constitution' in place of the word 'thereof' occurring in the first line of my post at #472.

To wind up, I think Islam can also be used positively by making Art.6 thereof as a part of the 'Fatwa' so that it can also survive and implemented like the Fatwa punishing those who rape the Islamic Constitution of Pakistan with impunity off and on.

Re: # 469

I don't know how this issue of patriotism on the part of Qadianies came in. As far as I am concerned I was talking about the 'Half Nama' which only the one who claims to be a Muslim citizen of Pakistan has to submit to the state functionaries off and on to be accepted as such.

Interestingly this HN originally mentioned even the name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad though derogatively as an impostor. His name was thus unwittingly made famous though negatively all over the world which the Qadianies claimed to be, in away, a fulfillment of the promise made to the Mirza by God that his name would be made famous.

Of late, somebody taking care of Pakies' faith, realized the absurdity and removed the name of Mirza from the HN'. May be some Chowky friend can enlighten us about the evolution of the HN and how it came about. Sattar2 can perhaps do this amicably.

majumdar (#462),

I am not much familiar with the politics of it all (shrugging icon) … but gathered that baniyya is a Paki term for every vegetarian across the border. So I remain unsure of its connotation … as well as that of the old goat reference (or maybe I should ask my uncle who swears by the Jinnah-Radcliff dialogue - ahem)

… but if there is any truth to Nehru nailing Edwina, it lets the desis have the last laugh, in a jeering sort of a way …

Qadiani issue is religious and political.
I don't think I will doubt the patriotism of Qadianis. In my experience they were contributing a lot to Pakistani society, particularly since they were educated.
Apart from Sir Zafarullah two other names which comes to mind are (Brigadier)or (General) Akhtar Malik (I think) was a hero of 1965 war. And famous AbdusSalam who is a product of Pakistan.
On religious side it is a fight between fundamentalist and qadianis and its extension to all spheres of society.
I will keep my opinion to this. "I am taught by a very great teacher and even a greater human being. Later on I came to know that he was Qadiani. It does not in any decrease his prestige"

Re: # 63

masadi

You say:

"That "half nama" is a non issue that does not affect the lives of the very vast majority of Pakistanis and those that it does affect it does not take away from their social standing whatsoever."

Yes, it is so if you are a Paki Hindu or Sikh and even a Qadiani but it is certainly very disgraceful and humiliating for a Paki Muslims who could claim to be Muslims as of right before the bloody 'Fatwa' but now have to submit a 'Half Nama' of being a Muslim for getting registered as a voter even. For me as an ethnic Muslim (a Syed) it is all the more disgraceful to submit an 'HN' to an 'Ummati' to be treated as a Muslim.

#462 Posted by majumdar on January 9, 2008 7:08:12 pm

Dada,

For them, every Indian is a heeng-smelling bania.
Hope that clarifies.

DM Sahib,

You are correct that history is writen by the victors but in this case, the Japanese were much, much worse than the Allies. My cousin's grandfather was a Japanese POW and as far as he was concerned, you couldn't drop enough A-bombs on the Japanese (though most camp guards were actually Korean and a few Taiwanese IIRC). He also didn't join the INA.

DM sahib,

(If they had been victors, it would be the Americans who would have been called the worst human beings for using atomic weapons indiscriminately on humans)

I hope u have noticed the contradiction in ur statement- Japs cud never have won once USA had got nukes.

(History is written by victors and so the Japanese are today "accepted" by us all as horrible beasts who committed unspeakable atrocities.)

South East Asians and Chinks consider Japs as beasts even without reading the Yank version of history.

Regards

dostmittar: In adopting the democratic Constitution given to them by the US, the Japanese themselves acknowledge what you find so difficult to acknowledge - namely, that WWII was an existentialist struggle between two different kinds of societies - dictatorships vs democracy.

The Germans acknowledged the same in Europe, and under the leadership of Konrad Adenauer and subsequent chancellors, have consistently and willingly followed the democratic path shown to them by the US.

But..if you refuse to recognize this World War II for what it was (a struggle to decide whether the world would be ruled by the Germans and Japanese or by free nations) then dont let me interfere with your line of thought. As for Bose - if you wish to consider him a hero despite all evidence to the contrary, then that is fine. Never mind Logic (which is crying its heart out at being ignored by you) and Facts (which is beating its head against the wall in frustration) - these two critters are no doubt highly overrated.

tahmed32:

Bose is hero not only to Indians but also to many Pakistanis (see Ladgasht's post), he was an Indian and not a Hindu patriot. History is written by victors and so the Japanese are today "accepted" by us all as horrible beasts who committed unspeakable atrocities. If they had been victors, it would be the Americans who would have been called the worst human beings for using atomic weapons indiscriminately on humans while Japanese would have been thought of as the heroes who disproved the superiority of the white race. No, I do not believe the Americans are satans or the Japs angels (although they do seem to be very decent and docile people, which you would no doubt credit to General McArthur), just that both of them fighting a war and following the dictum that everything was fair in love and war.

Sattar bhai,

(Radcliff: She was last seen sneaking in Nehru’s bedroom. You poor sod, the baniyya has beaten you to it. What are you going to do about it?)

JLN was a Brahmin, not a Baniya, it was the old goat who was the baniya.

Regards

How's the whole let's use islam as a weapon to bleed india thing going?

Looks like the indigenous freedom fighters of the JeM are whacking pakis..

Second Editorial: A retired major and terrorism

The big news on Wednesday was that the man who masterminded the attack on the bus of air force officers at the Sargodha air base, on November 1 last year, has been caught. The man is a retired army officer who works for Al Qaeda and organised the attack with the help of an “outlawed militant group”. The attack had killed eight and crippled 40 for life.

The retired major, Ahsanul Haq, had six associates with him, most probably belonging to Jaish-e Muhammad or Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, organisations that have grown out of the mother jihadi organisation called Sipah-e-Sahaba. The Sipah supplied a chunk of the warriors that fought Pakistan’s covert jihad in Afghanistan and Kashmir. Their Pakistani intelligence “handlers” allowed them to into the tutelage of Al Qaeda because of their faith in what Al Qaeda was doing but also because of the Arab money that flowed liberally in the wake of Osama bin Laden. Most of the suicide bombings in Pakistan are organised by these “outlawed” militias that are allowed by the Pakistani state to operate freely in Pakistan’s civil society under changed names. *

Salim,

… heck, this is what my uncle told me. This conversation took place between Jinnah and Radcliff:

+++

Jinnah: Radcliff, you (expletive) Brit; in Gurdaspur, did you keep separate record of Ahmadis?

Radcliff: No Mr. Jinnah, I did not. Zafrullah specifically instructed me not to. BTW, I reckon that Mirzai is planning to give Gurdaspur to India.

Jinnah (under his breath): That (expeltive) Qadiani; he is once again conspiring with the Jews; damn it … wait till I get my hands around his (expletive) neck. (Turns to Radcliff) Ok, don’t worry ... I’ll take care of it. BTW, have you seen Edwina?

Radcliff: She was last seen sneaking in Nehru’s bedroom. You poor sod, the baniyya has beaten you to it. What are you going to do about it?

Jinnah: Ok, ok, don’t rub it in. First I get a moth-eaten Pakistan. Then Nehru gets to nail Edwina before I could. Pour me a Scotch, will you please? (takes a sip, turns towards the window, gazes outward, and speaks with a certain tone of optimism) But I like this Maudoodi guy ... he is willing to give his life for Pakistan. Allah willing, we will create Pakistan and impose Nizam-e-Mustafa once for all. It will be a country for Muslims alone. If you are not one, get out. Oh, I think I hear azaan. May be I should stop drinking and become a pious Muslim (pours his drink on the floor, recites kalima, and goes on to curse Qadianis).

Fuzair,

... yes, I think this is what Urstruly is implying (that Ahmadis in Gurdaspur numbered less than 13k). And he is putting the burden on Ahmadis to prove otherwise.

And if Ahmadis fail to disprove his contention, it can only mean that Zafrullah betrayed Pakistan, Gurdaspur going to India opened gates of hell - costing 1 million lives and displacing 20+ million people. Somehow Jesus buried in Kashmir also ties into all this … which further proves that Kashmir too is an Ahmadi conspiracy.

And he can prove all this … based on the word of his uncle. Takbeer …

(Urstruly, what’s next? Jews are conspiring with aliens? What does your uncle think? Or may be you can quote your doodhwalla to support your point. No??)

+++

Salim,

If Radcliff was suppoed to take that into account … and he didn’t … this further proves an Ahamdi conspiracy. My uncle thinks so. Can you prove him wrong??

Fuzair and company,
There is no point arguing about the percentage of Muslims in Guradspur. While Radcliff was supposed to take that into account he was not obligated to do so. Such was the nonsensical and utterly stupid basis for the Partition of India.
If you check carefully, you might find that the percentage of Muslims in Delhi, Muradabad, and Lucknow was also very high - if not a majority. But who cares? Partition along religious lines was stupid and its results are clearly available for all to see. :(