Islam as a political weapon in Pakistan

#454 {"BTW I liked you succinct usage of 'beatification of Bhutto'...How BB supporters don't see flaws in her political charater!"}

Kamath Sahib,
I appreciate your feedback. :) BB supporters have their focus on the ethnic politics of Pakistan. With Zardari at the helm, it's going to be even worse than under BB. PPP will eventually decline into a regional Sindhu Desh party much like the former Awami League that represented a majority of Pakistan at one time. :(

Yaar, Ladgasht, I am NOT saying the Qadianis are unpatriotic; I agree 100% that they are and they have proven it over and over. I was merely pointing out the logical inconsistencies in Urstruly's arguments.

Urstruly: I haven't been able to find the breakdown for the number of Qadianis in Gurdaspur as per the 1941 census, but here is some interesting information from http://punjabrevenue.nic.in/gaz_gdr4.htm.

In 1941 the population of Gurdaspur was 854,866, of which 440,323 were Muslims, so 51.5% Muslim. Are you seriously going to argue that there were fewer than 12,823 Qadianis in the entire district? If so, what is your source?

BTW, this source (http://paa2004.princeton.edu/download.asp?submissionId=41274) gives only 50.2% Muslim in Gurdaspur.

Urstruly #441:

”There was no way Gurdaspur should have gone to India.”

Your assertion is correct … (1) but only in a perfect world, and (2) if “Muslim majority” was the sole criterion of partition. If either condition is compromised, all you have left is an axe to grind.

Read the excerpt in #440; it adequately addresses the issue. Feel free to share it with your uncle.

Anyway, by insisting that Ahmadis are not Muslims, you have relinquished your claim to Gurdaspur. You are now crying over spilt milk. Fuzair is correct in wondering why didn’t the ullema happily relinquish Gurdaspur to India. Least they could have done was to object to definition of “Muslim” in the 1940 census.

(PS: I am glad you are no longer claiming that Gurdaspur was 80% Muslim. Now, this is what I call progress ...)

Re: # 430
Salim Chauhan:

BTW I liked you succinct usage of 'beatification of Bhutto'
How BB supporters don't see flaws in her political charater!

Kamath

Re: # 443 ur line of thought is absolute BS.The Qadianis were patriotic Pakistanis.They raised Al Furqan Brigade to fight in Kashmir in 1947-48.At that time in 1947 it was not their question of being non Muslim.

Re: # 415 HP , u have an ants brain.A man of a very low calibre with little education.Zafrullah had no business signing SEATO.He attended it as a guest as pavo stated.I think that he was promised the slot of ICJ judge as bribe to sign this treaty.

Pakis... Gurdaspur stayed with india, so did hyderbad, kashmir (the good part), junagarh ... did I miss anything else that pakis whine about all the time?... There is nothing you can do about that...

Where the heck is Gurdaspur anyway?

Anycase - If things go the way they are - you would be hard pressed to keep together what you have now... why don't you focus on that?... I m hearing sindh is pretty upset and restive these days...

Besides - there is no indication that Bose sold his soul to japs or nazis... he sure used them for his purpose...

Re: # 447

good one... even though I think Bose is over-rated as a hero - his attempts to fight against brits with released POWs is indeed coomendable... at the least - he secured the release of those POW indian soldiers from captivity and suffering...

And like you said - had the japs converted millions to shinto, Ahmed32 would be probably one of them and would now be named Amasaki and would be worshipping Hirohito(or whoever the japanese emperor was at that time) as his prophet, PUBH(it's japanese equivalent)

Just like today he worships Mo and praises Abdali or whoever was the islamic invader who pillaged and converted to produce the present day pakis...:)

#447 jang: You say because the japs didnt actually come to india, one can assume they would have treated indians any better than the other asians (chinese, koreans, philipino's, vietnamese, malays, burmese)?

If you are looking for a stupid argument - THAT is one stupid argument. I know it is hard to acknowledge that your national hero was a japanese puppet, but be brave and face facts. You can do it.

tahmd your argument is stupid at best. bose used the japanese in his patriotic quest, why should indians disown him as a puppet of the japanese? IF japs had come to india, raped and pillaged and later caused millions to convert to shinto .. maybe i can see your point..but the converted shinto still may not see it your way.

jury is still out on Zafarullah khan

Re: # 443

Yes the right answer to the Gudaspur debacle lies somewhere between cupidity and stupidity of Zafarullah and zafarullah alone since he was the empowered delegate on ML side. One thing is certain that he kept QA in dark about Gurdaspur until the last moment. That at least is confirmed by third party sources including my uncle, QA's dismay as reported by almost every historian, and especially his comment of the "moth eaten Pakistan".

Your argument about Quadiani population in Gurdaspur is irrelevant since you have no proof to support your claim the fact that there was a significant Quadiani presence in the distric other than your word of mouth. You cannot prove their number conclusively and neither you can prove that had they been not recognized as Muslims it would have had any effect on the outcome of Partition formula if brokered honestly. Au contraire I have the census of 1941 on my side, which was also agreed by all parties involved in Radcliffe Award.

So my honest advise to Quadianis is that they shouldn't even raise the question of 'had the Quadianis not recognized as Muslims....." because it nullifies or at least weaken their own argument that "we are Muslims". You cannot eat the cake...

#443 fuzair: Poor urstruly has been hoist by his own petard. :-(

The 'fuss' was your inane argument that Ch. Zafrulla, at best out of stupidity and worst out of cupidity, gave Gurdaspur to India. My point was that if Qadianis are non-Muslims, Gurdaspur should have gone to India, and vice-versa. It is irrelevant if Qadianis call themselves Muslims, 'real' Muslims would have rejected this assertion in 1947 and insisted that as a non-Muslim majority district, it should legally have stayed in India. Of course, we'd be happy to steal it from India if we could, but we have no 'moral' claim on it.

Urstruly#441:

So very well, we all are in agreement over the issue of Gurdaspur. There was no way Gurdaspur should have gone to India."

You mean, all Pakistanis.;)