Islam as a political weapon in Pakistan

Re: # 422
nasah,
I take exception.
Read my full post that HP alluded to.

#423 read "you are running from pillar to post doing that are being let down at every turn.."

as "you are running from pillar to post doing that and are being let down at every turn...

Zeemax “I appeal to HP to accept pavocavalry as the 'Master', and pay tribute.

Otherwise, HP, your grand name will be mud. Pavo will grind you into the ground."

Newbies with the power of copy-paste in their hands, with bits detached from institutional roots, with posts relying on "authority based" knowledge the hallmark of darul ulooms or the PMA cannot claim to be masters at anything. When Mr. Pavo composes a piece in which his own thought comes forward (and I mean more than a line or two, which are characteristics of Manto's posts- another fake claimant to being the "master"), then maybe we can spend some time with his posts. In the meantime I will remind Zeemax not to cling to false messiahs, you are running from pillar to post doing that are being let down at every turn. Get a grip on yourself man.

Re: # 416
"You make a bad call!
I guess you just can’t figure out what the army role had been and still is in Pakistan. This is a typical army supporter tactics to blame every one for the problems as if the army was “Just one of those”. Ignoring the fact that since 1951 and starting in 1954, the army brazenly interfered in the civilian affair and it was the only force that forced petty civilian politicians to stand on the army side." (HP)

I would add that some were congenitally petty politicians -- and some were forced to become petty -- and those who rebelled against becoming pets or pettys of the army were kicked out unceremoniously at gunpoint.

Can you believe that a prime minister of a civilian run government will not be allowed to visit nuclear facility of her own country by its own army! -- and can you believe that a dumb ass COAS fired from his job for not obeying civilian orders given by the PM of the country will rather topple the elected government than leave the job as ordered gracefully!

Just think of it if every soldier started doing that -- imagine anybody fired from the job will fire his or her boss with a gun pointed at his or her head! And then become the boss himself -- and this is supposed to be rule of law country -- or rule of the jungle country?

And then these PhD apologistas of the Army dictatorship doing intellectual gymnastics to blame the civilian leaders for the mess in Pakistan – saying she asked for it.

fuzair#409:

I believe it was the state of Jodhpur.

pov#406:

I have read a slight variant of this. It is that the British had asked both the Congress and the ML for their opinions on how to handle the princely states. The Congress wanted the political parties in the princely states also to have a say in the final decision (the Congress had its affliates in most States!) while Jinnah wanted the Prince to have the sole power. The British accepted Jinnah's position, who was eyeing Hyderabad and, maybe, Bhopal while he thought that Kashmir would have no option but to fall in Pakistan's lap like a ripe apple. To give Nehru some credit, he did seek the concurrence of the largest political party in Kashmir, Sheikh Abdullah's National Conference, before accepting Kashmir's accession.

Urstruly#376:

I think that you are confusing UP with Punjab. The Unionist govt. of Punjab could never be accused ot being pro-Hindu. I think our "geo-neighbour", T.E.Shah would confirm that most govt. posts at the senior level were filled by Muslims, at least in West Punjab. In govt. recruitments, such as Railway, a quota system was used which reserved 50% seats for Muslims, 25% for scheduled castes and the remainder were in the general category open to all, in other words they too were not exclusively for Hindus and Sikhs.
On the other hand, if you had said that the Hindu Shah Gumashtas were hated by their Muslim borrowers, you may have a point.

On Gurdaspur, while I am not knowlegeable about what happened in the secret talks between various actors, please note that population figures in the 1940 Census were not to be the sole determinant of whether a district were to go to India or Pakistan. The other factors that the Commission was to take into consideration were:
- geographical contiguity
- any demographic movements since 1940 census
- land ownership
- economic property ownership

tahmned32:

You may have a greater insight into "what would have been" and will not argue that point with you. But I would like to remind you that Bose was a well-respected leader of the progressive wing of the Congress and had, indeed, defeated Gandhi's candidate for the post of the Congress President in 1938, (for which Gandhi never forgave him). And I also know that while the quislings in Europe are now discredited in their homelands, Bose's name is among the most honoured in India. Many people (foolishly) believed that the Indian govt. was complicit in hiding the true whereabout of Bose because Nehru was afraid that he would lose elections to Bose. While this was nonsense, it shows the magic spell that Bose cast on his compatriots. Some quisling!

Fuzair:

Sorry, I missed responding to you earlier. Regardless of the proportion of defecting pows, the fact is that the British realised that the soldiers were no longer immune to the freedom 'virus' as they were at the time of the jalianwala bagh. Please note the following quote from my BBC paste to pav.
"With the British now aware that the Indian army could no longer be relied upon by the Raj to do its bidding, independence followed soon after."
The situation was, I think, somewhat similar to the one facing Pak army in curbing islamist insurgency in the Northwest as its army, while quite disciplined, is also not immune from the islamist virus.
I agree with you re. the discipline of the Indian army in general. I believe that, against Nehru's advice, Patel refused to reinstate rebels into the Indian army and navy as he thought that this would compromise future discipline of the army.
Regards.

#358 Posted by ijaz_gul

“I call this entire group of conspirators that include the politicians, bureaucrats, agencies and top military men, who tasted power as the mindset who have successfully bred generations into the present state of affairs.”

You make a bad call!
I guess you just can’t figure out what the army role had been and still is in Pakistan. This is a typical army supporter tactics to blame every one for the problems as if the army was “Just one of those”. Ignoring the fact that since 1951 and starting in 1954, the army brazenly interfered in the civilian affair and it was the only force that forced petty civilian politicians to stand on the army side.

The army had been actively killing Pakistanis and there is no need to document that again but still I would do that so that you have a clear idea of what I am talking about.
1958-59 Balochistan
1964-65 Balochistan
1971 East Pakistan
1973-76 Balochistan
1979-83 Sindh
2005 Balochistan

Here we have any army which has attacked Pakistanis with impunity and you are talking about the security situation? Sorry to burst your bubble but the East Pakistan struggle was against the army. In Baluchistan, it was against the army and in Sindh, the struggle was against the army. And as I see it, we are headed for another confrontation in Sindh.

Pakistan army has become the enemy of Pakistan and should be treated as such. The army is conspiring against the people of Pakistan to preserve its own status and privileges. And I have yet to find a conscientious objector in the officers’ class.
It should be disbanded. All army officers, junior or senior should be reoriented and reeducated!

Your romanticism notwithstanding!

#410 Posted by Urstruly
Re: # 398 Fuzair

Isn’t urstruly suggesting that Since Qadianis were Muslim in 1947, Gurdaspur should have been part of Pakistan? But he never tells what was he going to do in 1974 when Qadianis became non muslim….Give Gurdaspur back to India?

Poohnchi waheen pay khak Jehan ka Khameer tha!

#364 Posted by zeemax

“I appeal to HP to accept pavocavalry as the 'Master', and pay tribute.

Otherwise, HP, your grand name will be mud. Pavo will grind you into the ground.

Pavo is full of schit and I have shown it many times. Jihadi supporters in my books get no corner.
Btw, read my post #351 again and again.

“From your own quote it is apparent that he did not sign the treaty but signed an advisory note that does not amount to signing the treaty as you had alleged in your post that I had challenged. Clearly you don't understand the difference in an advisory note and the actually signing of the treaty.”

I am still waiting for Pavo to respond to #351 where I proved from his on quotes that Zaffarullah never signed the treaty because he was not the Foreign Minister at the time of the signing the treaty.

I read him calling every one on this board, Qadiani. Typical mullah behavior!

Zafarullah being a Qadiani had nothing to with the treaty and it is just pathetic to hide behind the religion when facts don’t support your arguments.

#412 masadi: I know. I know. I have a heart of stone. I love to see people suffer. But...your pathetic condition melts even my cold heart.

pav:

I was not referring to the INA but to the India Legion. Here is the full BBC report that I was alluding to:

Hitler's secret Indian army
By Mike Thomson
BBC News


"In the closing stages of World War II, as Allied and French resistance forces were driving Hitler's now demoralised forces from France, three senior German officers defected.

Legionnaires were recruited from German POW camps
The information they gave British intelligence was considered so sensitive that in 1945 it was locked away, not due to be released until the year 2021.

Now, 17 years early, the BBC's Document programme has been given special access to this secret file.

It reveals how thousands of Indian soldiers who had joined Britain in the fight against fascism swapped their oaths to the British king for others to Adolf Hitler - an astonishing tale of loyalty, despair and betrayal that threatened to rock British rule in India, known as the Raj.

The story the German officers told their interrogators began in Berlin on 3 April 1941. This was the date that the left-wing Indian revolutionary leader, Subhas Chandra Bose, arrived in the German capital.

Bose, who had been arrested 11 times by the British in India, had fled the Raj with one mission in mind. That was to seek Hitler's help in pushing the British out of India.

He wanted 500 volunteers who would be trained in Germany and then parachuted into India. Everyone raised their hands. Thousands of us volunteered

Lieutenant Barwant Singh
Six months later, with the help of the German foreign ministry, he had set up what he called "The Free India Centre", from where he published leaflets, wrote speeches and organised broadcasts in support of his cause.

By the end of 1941, Hitler's regime officially recognised his provisional "Free India Government" in exile, and even agreed to help Chandra Bose raise an army to fight for his cause. It was to be called "The Free India Legion".

Bose hoped to raise a force of about 100,000 men which, when armed and kitted out by the Germans, could be used to invade British India.

He decided to raise them by going on recruiting visits to Prisoner-of-War camps in Germany which, at that time, were home to tens of thousands of Indian soldiers captured by Rommel in North Africa.

Volunteers

Finally, by August 1942, Bose's recruitment drive got fully into swing. Mass ceremonies were held in which dozens of Indian POWs joined in mass oaths of allegiance to Adolf Hitler.


Chandra Bose did not live to see Indian independence
These are the words that were used by men that had formally sworn an oath to the British king: "I swear by God this holy oath that I will obey the leader of the German race and state, Adolf Hitler, as the commander of the German armed forces in the fight for India, whose leader is Subhas Chandra Bose."

I managed to track down one of Bose's former recruits, Lieutenant Barwant Singh, who can still remember the Indian revolutionary arriving at his prisoner of war camp.

"He was introduced to us as a leader from our country who wanted to talk to us," he said.

"He wanted 500 volunteers who would be trained in Germany and then parachuted into India. Everyone raised their hands. Thousands of us volunteered."

Demoralised

In all 3,000 Indian prisoners of war signed up for the Free India Legion.

But instead of being delighted, Bose was worried. A left-wing admirer of Russia, he was devastated when Hitler's tanks rolled across the Soviet border.

Matters were made even worse by the fact that after Stalingrad it became clear that the now-retreating German army would be in no position to offer Bose help in driving the British from faraway India.

When the Indian revolutionary met Hitler in May 1942 his suspicions were confirmed, and he came to believe that the Nazi leader was more interested in using his men to win propaganda victories than military ones.

So, in February 1943, Bose turned his back on his legionnaires and slipped secretly away aboard a submarine bound for Japan.


Rudolf Hartog remembers parting with his Indian friends
There, with Japanese help, he was to raise a force of 60,000 men to march on India.

Back in Germany the men he had recruited were left leaderless and demoralised. After much dissent and even a mutiny, the German High Command despatched them first to Holland and then south-west France, where they were told to help fortify the coast for an expected allied landing.

After D-Day, the Free India Legion, which had now been drafted into Himmler's Waffen SS, were in headlong retreat through France, along with regular German units.

It was during this time that they gained a wild and loathsome reputation amongst the civilian population.

The former French Resistance fighter, Henri Gendreaux, remembers the Legion passing through his home town of Ruffec: "I do remember several cases of rape. A lady and her two daughters were raped and in another case they even shot dead a little two-year-old girl."

Finally, instead of driving the British from India, the Free India Legion were themselves driven from France and then Germany.

Their German military translator at the time was Private Rudolf Hartog, who is now 80.

"The last day we were together an armoured tank appeared. I thought, my goodness, what can I do? I'm finished," he said."

"But he only wanted to collect the Indians. We embraced each other and cried. You see that was the end."

Mutinies

A year later the Indian legionnaires were sent back to India, where all were released after short jail sentences.

But when the British put three of their senior officers on trial near Delhi there were mutinies in the army and protests on the streets.

With the British now aware that the Indian army could no longer be relied upon by the Raj to do its bidding, independence followed soon after.

Not that Subhas Chandra Bose was to see the day he had fought so hard for. He died in 1945.

Since then little has been heard of Lieutenant Barwant Singh and his fellow legionnaires.

At the end of the war the BBC was forbidden from broadcasting their story and this remarkable saga was locked away in the archives, until now. Not that Lieutenant Singh has ever forgotten those dramatic days.

"In front of my eyes I can see how we all looked, how we would all sing and how we all talked about what eventually would happen to us all," he said.

tahmed writes "masadi: I am a kind man at heart..."

No one who supports British colonization of India, was rallying for the US Iraq war of 2003, blamed the Hizbullah for the Israeli Lebanon carnage in 2006, and spares not a moment to advocate our slavery to the US elite can be "a kind man at heart". With loose morals you eventually lose your ability to seperate truth from falsehood and comprehend simple facts and thus you pretend not to understand my quite simple posts...

sattar 2 writes "So much anger against Ahmadis?"

No anger whatsoever, just trying to counter the claims of the peon of the West tahmed who was comparing apples and oranges by ignoring the social/political context in which the two groups operate, and the IF is of paramount importance in understanding social phenomena, has nothing to do with a bull having tits or not, but evangelicals of the Ahmadi group like all evangelical ignoramuses wouldn't know, all they are concerned about is pushing their narrow agenda and beliefs....

Re: # 398 Fuzair

And I can call your post as Exhibit A to show how Quadianis always undermine the Pakistani cause for Kashmir and other disputed issues of Partition. But that contradicts my agenda. So a simple answer to your query regarding logical consistency is that that we are examining the circumstances of an era 6 decades ago, so must apply the logic which is consistent with that era. In that era there existed no such inconsistency.