Al-Andalusia … Decline of a Plural Culture

Re: # 171 All are equal citizens of our country... and there is no threat of casteism .. alos there are other skirmishes of temporary nature.But not curse of casteism...

Re: # 170 May Bhegwan bless you peace of mind!

Re: # 168

Talking about the scared and dhimmified hindus in Pakistan as if they represent true hindu idolators is nonsense.
You have no idea about us idolators. WE are now fully educated about your cult of hate and are prepared to defend against your genocidal intents.

Re: # 167

How about telling this to your gali ka maulavi??

OTOH , you would nod vociferously when he curses the jews, christians, Amrikans and the mushriqs like me!!!

Re: # 168 well written keep it up!

While living in Pakistan I had 8 Hindu friends. I know personally that there are over a 100 Hindu temples in Karachi alone. I have been to few of them with my Hindu friends on the openly celebrated occasions of Deepavali and others. Similarly there are many active Gurdwara’s in Pakistan along with 100’s of Christian churches of almost all denominations. Ismaili Jamaat Khana’s, Bohri, Bahai & many other faiths have their temples in Pakistan. In last 60 years they are functional under full protection of the Govt of Pakistan. YES we have incidents of violence against these institutions every now & then, however they are not reflective of Islamic intolerance to these faiths or institutions, instead they were always the political act of few, who claim to be the representative of many.

The recent show of anger through out Pakistan after the death of BB does not mean that every single person in Pakistan who belongs to PPP hates Pakistan. It’s the few who did it, and guess what it turns out that it gave the advantage to the anti-PPP guys who wanted to postpone the election. Now it may be that they have a hand in this too.

As far as pluralism in modern societies: I now live in USA, and it does not seem to fit the definition either. Islam is the fastest growing religion here, and I do not see any Jihad happening inside USA against the so called “infidels”. However here is an example of how everyday Christian people react. About 25 years ago the Muslim community in this town where I live decided to build an Islamic center. The building was next to a Christian church which was there for many years. Now the new Islamic center is a 2 story building with a dome on top making it 3 stories tall. The church next door is a small single story structure. However once the design of the Islamic center was finalized & construction started the church decided to raise the cross higher to make it 3 inches taller than the highest point of the Islamic center which is the crescent on the dome. Every Christian friend I have who I have talked to laugh at that and agree that a 2 story tall cross on a small single story building does not look good at all. In fact it makes the building look bad. Now is that to be blamed at Christianity or just some over enthusiastic followers.

Forget about the cross at the local church. Let’s see what have happened in Iowa. Mitt Romney was the leading candidate in Republican Party, until his Mormonism became a liability, when Mike Huckabee ran an ad calling himself the true “Christian Leader”. Now any Republican I know agrees that Romney is far better choice than Huckabee but he will have the lead because of the Evangelical factor. Where does the pluralistic factor gone in the society?

The truth is that every religion is having the same problem. In India Hinduism is facing a grave challenge of losing its base. Hinduism is losing its followers to Islam & Christianity & even secularism. There are some conversions in its direction too but it is still a net-loss as the outward flow is more. The only way to spread Hinduism is by procreation, which was not an issue until recently, however Hindu leaders now fear that poor economy will lead to slow the population growth.

In neighboring Pakistan, the fundamentalist groups have the same fear. Due to economic condition & spread of modern secular education they are losing their extreme followers. That is why we see a fire on both sides trying to keep their followers. In USA, France, Brittan and other European countries Christianity is losing its followers to Islam due to conversion, illegal/legal immigration & procreation factor. Muslim in all these countries have a higher birth rate than any other group with the exception of Latinos in USA.

Now these pressures have changed the psyche of the common Christians to wards all issues. The Christians are not killing Muslims in USA, so does the Muslims are not converting Christians at the point of sword. However the war of Iraq & Afghanistan is mentioned as a Crusade in Churches all over USA & Europe.

The point of this article is that for any society to flourish, pluralism has to be in its heart and soul. The point here is that any community can & will flourish only when everyone respect everyone else’s opinion. It can happen in real life in any community.

I am amazed to see the hate level among the biggest proponents of “Pluralism & Secularism” on this forum

Vote Ron Paul for President.

Re: # 166 Hatred has short life , love is eternal!

Re: # 165

Tomorrow this guy is going to say that all hindus must apologize to muslims beause their idols are an affront to their religion!!

They are going to be wiped out this time like the vermins were done in the Eastern Europe!

What happens when some Muslim thinks you have insulted Islam:

Taslima should apologise to Muslims: Dasmunsi

By IANS
Sunday January 6, 03:53 PM

Kolkata, Jan 6 (IANS) Union Information and Broadcasting Minister Priya Ranjan Dasmunsi Sunday said controversial Bangladeshi author Taslima Nasreen should apologise with 'folded hands' for hurting the sentiments of Muslims of the country, and hinted that her book 'Dwikhandito' could be banned.

Talking to reporters in Malda in West Bengal, he said: 'We are a pluralistic nation and we respect all religions. I love literature and I have nothing against her writing. But that does not mean she can use her pen to insult and hurt the religious belief of the Muslims or for that matter any religion.'

'The comments made by her in the book in question were uncalled for. She should bow down before the people whose sentiments she has hurt and apologise with folded hands, and expunge those pages from her book,' Dasmunsi said.

'We did not allow Salman Rushdie's book ('The Satanic Verses') when it caused a flutter and raised controversy. She will not be an exception,' said Dasmunsi.

Confined to a 'safe house' somewhere in New Delhi and shut out from the world except for phone calls and emails, Taslima Nasreen longs to come back to Kolkata from where she was shunted out in November after unprecedented street riots over her writings.

The Indian government earlier virtually told Taslima to leave the country or stay confined in a house away from Kolkata, where she had set up home for the past few years returning from exile in Europe after she was hounded out of Bangladesh for her writings.

Asked if she should be allowed to return to West Bengal, Dasmuni said, 'I will not make any comment on this. When the state government had welcomed her and asked her to settle down in Kolkata complying with her wishes, they were under the impression that they were about to bring a progressive revolution in the state.'

'So it is their headache now,' he said taking a dig at the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M)-led Left Front government in the state.

But if Taslima has to stay in India or any other country, she has to honour and respect the philosophy and identity of that nation, he added.

At the beginning of 2008, the writer had described her condition as in a no man's land of fading hope, despair and crushing loneliness.

'I am only breathing. I don't think I am alive like you are. Can anybody live like this? It was beyond my imagination that in a secular democracy this can happen to a writer,' Nasreen told IANS from her room in an undisclosed New Delhi house recently.

Re: # 162 Yea your ideas prove this!

Re: # 160May Bhegwan saver you from your jealousy and hate!

Re: # 161

you are right - it's like asking drunkard to stop following aolcohol binge and cease being a fool... it can never been done...

laddu, my brother, please, you have to stop asking Muslims to not follow Islam or to cease being Muslims. That is neither going to work a tiniest bit nor is that at all fair.

With a calm head, try to understand. Once you succeed even partially, you may respect them (although respect is never necessary), or at the very least, will live more intelligently for yourself and for others.

------------

#160

For God's sake stop sympathizing with the entire world. Only absolute morons do that, or real saints. Few of us are saints.

Re: # 158

hey again, I do not hate people.......I only hate the ideology of Islam.....muslims are its victims and I have my full sympathies for them.......

Re: # 157 If you are not then why are you always obssssed to cut and paste references out of its context and trying to use them for your own personal agenda of hate mongering?

Re: # 157 If you are not then why are you always obssssed to cut and paste references out of its context and trying to use them for your own personal agenda of hate mongering?

Re: # 156

hey, I only educated you in your own Sunnat..... I am not into this killing nonsense like Mohammad was.......

Re: # 155 what you want to prove by pasting and cutting wrongly translated texts? are you in senses? what is difference bewen you and a suicide bomber .. who also kills on name of religion? Ignorance is always not bliss!

Muhammad visited Umm Haram and she looked for lice in his head…(Sahih Bukhari, 9.87.130)

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 130:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah's Apostle used to visit Um Haram bint Milhan she was the wife of 'Ubada bin As-Samit. One day the Prophet visited her and she provided him with food and started looking for lice in his head. Then Allah's Apostle slept and afterwards woke up smiling. Um Haram asked, "What makes you smile, O Allah's Apostle?" He said, "Some of my followers were presented before me in my dream as fighters in Allah's Cause, sailing in the middle of the seas like kings on the thrones or like kings sitting on their thrones." (The narrator Ishaq is not sure as to which expression was correct). Um Haram added, 'I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Invoke Allah, to make me one of them;" So Allah's Apostle invoked Allah for her and then laid his head down (and slept). Then he woke up smiling (again). (Um Haram added): I said, "What makes you smile, O Allah's Apostle?" He said, "Some people of my followers were presented before me (in a dream) as fighters in Allah's Cause." He said the same as he had said before. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Invoke Allah to make me from them." He said, "You are among the first ones." Then Um Haram sailed over the sea during the Caliphate of Muawiya bin Abu Sufyan, and she fell down from her riding animal after coming ashore, and died.

Muhammad's companions were manual labourers; they had stinky body odour...(Sahih Bukhari 3.34.285)

Re: # 153 I f I ask Hindus to shun ram Ji , Sita and others how will you respond? Learn to accept diversity of thought.

Re: # 150

Get out of this Sunnat cloning and Islamic view finder if you want to be a human being again......

throw them away and you would find the god you look for....

Re: # 151 dubai and Al-Andalusia...I doubt.

Iqbal says

afkar e taza say hei jehan nau ki namud

ky sang o khishet say huty nhin jehan peda!

The moral of the story is that in order for muslim societies to prosper they need to be plural otherwise, they tend to degenerate just as hindus once did, modern success stories such as Malaysia, dubai are due to them being plural even though non-muslims, foreigners are treated as second class citizens. I think dubai is trying to be a modern day al-andulas with its architecture, promotion of arts, building of universities, they are building a $11billion canal for just aesthetic reasons and dozens of artificial islands.

Re: # 149 I think you are erroneous here, it is not the understanding as u think, and correct yourself Bedouins were those Arabs and still are who lived in desert a nomadic life and had no relation with urban life. Sunnah is not cloning or copying, there are wprayers and worshippings which are done as they were doen by holy prophet peace be upon him... like Vedic mantras as in old times now the same... and others have spirit and idea behind them to be followed.

If cloning was the idea then there would have not been possible so much variety and ideological abundance whic flourished after departure of Holy Prophet peace be upon him.

And about religious figures of any person or group if you can not respect them at least for the sake of nicere discussion do,nt trye to use provocative wording, as it is part of being refined and cultured. Grow up man!

Re: # 148

Sunnat is cloning of the concept called Mohammad......everything he did has to be cloned.....that is why there is misery in the Islamic world.........that is why there is so much of violence........that is what is Shariat all about......cloning of that Bedouin 'prophet' in the minds and thoughts of his brainwashed followers.....

Re: # 147 It is a very very negative and narrow understanding of the issue.There is no cloning there are concepts.

Re: # 146

"My freedom is blessing of being Muslim.."

How can one who is required to be a perfect clone of Arabic Bedouin call himself as "free" ? Are you free to sleep, eat, love, cry as you like to ?? No way, you always live in the dread of that blood thirsty god's punishment if you make a mistake. You call yourself 'free' when the noose of punishment by that Allah and his mullah henchmen is all the time hanging on your head.
What a joke! calling a 'subdued' soul as 'free'!! I can only laugh at your statement.

Re: # 145If I say same to you? My freedom is blessing of being Muslim !

Re: # 144

Stop acting like an ostrich........take your head out and take a long breath of freedom.... then you would know the difference between 'light' and 'blackness' of Islam.....

Re: # 143 It never did, and it never will crumble it is religion of humanity... and your desires will never be fulfilled.

Th threat is to those who kill innocent people and who are busy in theri own personal ghettoes... light will prevail.

Re: # 142

"Why in secualr democracy India there have been made laws to stop conversion to Christianity and other religions?"

indeed, such laws should be made because these soul harvesting religions are the cause of religious strife in this world.......they caused so much of mayhem in the name of impersonal god and tried to obfuscate the personal responsibility of the perpetrators of the crimes that get eulogized in the name of 'crusades', 'jehad' or religious wars.......the entire plank of these soul harvesting religions go away the moment it becomes impossible to deride, subdue,threaten and terrorize other civilizations into conversion.
Islam uses threats openly........ the book of Quran is a book of threats.........it openly threats mushriqs like me , it threatens even the believers........the moment the threat of Islam becomes in effective...Islam crumbles under its own weight as it is doing now!!!!

Re: # 140 perfection is rare but by choice chooisng one'sown religion is the most plural aspect. we need to discern between issues of reality and practical approach.Why in secualr democracy India there have been made laws to stop conversion to Christianity and other religions?

The lack of pluralism is not issue of opnly Muslim countries it is issue of whole world. Why Nazis and anti.Black ideas survive in europe and USA? They claim to be the models of plural society.
Nothing is perfect, we ahev alwasy to choose in real life between lesser and greater evil.

Re: # 139 come into real life dear about Arabs ibne Khaldun said that they were the least civilized masses and only rophet Muhamamd peace be upon him's message changed them. It is the message not the prototype and all the amjor intellectuals and thinkers ahve been non-Arabs. IslaM IS FRO HUMANITY NOT FOR ANY INDIVIDUAL AREA OR GROUP. yEA IT IS DIFFICULT fro people of a area centred ideology to fathom depths of this broader idea. But I heard that development of concepts is the process of learning and rationality... so let us pray it prevails not Arabic, HIndu, Western, Chinese, US, Russian, Jewish, Christain or any other imperialism... let us hope for Universality of humanity and equality of all human beings irrespectiev of any color, creed or religion.

Mahfari#127
HOW MANY COUNTRIES HAVE PLURALISTIC SOCIETY AND CULTURE

Re: # 130

"Plural society and ability of Muslim elite to nurture an dinnovate new ideas with local circumstances waS THE NAME OF GAME."

What a joke.......muslim identity is about being purer than the Arabs....Islam is Arabic cultural imperialism and muslim elites forced every other subjugated converts into their Arabic Shariat codes.......... it involved rejection and contempt for the local icons, symbols and practices.........All momeens are supposed to look the same , ACT THE SAME like the Arabic prototypes........

what a joke!!!!

Re: # 137 welcome dear

Thanks, mahmood mahmood bhai.

Re: # 133Muslims were provoked by romans and Persians ... and Muslim responded for their survival. Persians were not jealous or merely hostile they considered Muslims theri slaves and then times changed.

Re: # 133Muslims were provoked by romans and Persians ... and Muslim responded for their survival. Persians were not jealous or merely hostile they considered Muslims theri slaves and then times changed.

Re: # 133Muslims were provoked by romans and Persians ... and Muslim responded for their survival. Persians were not jealous or merely hostile they considered Muslims theri slaves and then times changed.

The conquest of Persia was definitely an important event. So, were Persians hostile to/jealous of Muslims, and Muslims had no option but to go after them and attack them?
----------

Yeah, persians, to this day, remain quite different.

Re: # 131 Persians were hostile to Muslims and there si saying of Hazrat Umer RA , when he saw mounds of wealth, it would have been better taht there was a wall of fire between us and Persians and we would have been in peace! But it never was and this Persian conquest opened up new vistas of synthesis and complexity within Muslim Polity and society.. and it also initaited the msot enduring schism of Sunnis and Shiahs which still plagues the Muslims !Persia has a differnet process!

mahmood mahmood, a little off the topic, but given that Muslims rallied to support the locals against a tyrannical Roderick, and Muslims rallied to support the locals against a tyrannical Raja Dahir, I was wondering if there is a pattern of good deeds over the centuries. For instance, do you know what happened in Persia?

Re: # 128 Innovation, brilliance and belief to own the land... and no looking back made the real difference. The position of local elite also played its role in its strengthening.

Plural society and ability of Muslim elite to nurture an dinnovate new ideas with local circumstances waS THE NAME OF GAME.

Re: # 128 It was initially Roderick;s tyranny and locals call for support to Muslims and they rallied, But it did,nt hold water and till coming of AbdurRehman Al dakhil Falcon of Spain it was going out of hands of Muslims. But abdurRehman's entry made the difference Abassid's revenge made this Arab Prince pioneer of an amazing experience.and rest is history!

thanks mahmood

also, can you comment on what made the moors settle in andalucia and create this miracle as opposed to say tunisia or morocco? what were the ingredients which caused this crest?

Re: # 125 what next? what does this population statistics show?

Re: # 125 what next? what does this population statistics show?

Top sixty by population on the left and by percentage on the right.

Top 60 By Population By Percentage
Rank Country Muslim Population % Muslim Country % Muslim Muslim Population
1 Indonesia 207,000,105 88.20% Saudi Arabia 97% 26,417,599
2 Pakistan 159,799,666 97% Afghanistan 99% 31,571,023
3 India 151,402,065 13.4% Somalia Nearly 99.8% 8,591,629
4 Bangladesh 132,446,365 88% Maldives 99.9% 348,756
5 Egypt 70,530,237 85% Western Sahara 99.8% 272,461
6 Turkey 68,963,953 97% Turkey 99% 68,963,953
7 Nigeria 64,385,994 45% Iran 98% 67,337,681
8 Iran 64,089,571 98% Algeria 99% 32,206,534
9 Algeria 32,999,883 99% Mauritania 99% 3,083,772
10 Morocco 32,300,410 99% Yemen 99% 20,519,792
11 Afghanistan 31,571,023 99% Tunisia 99% 9,974,201
12 Saudi Arabia 26,417,599 100% Oman 99% 2,971,567
13 Sudan 26,121,865 65% Comoros 99% 664,534
14 Iraq 25,292,658 97% Djibouti 99% 471,935
15 Uzbekistan 23,897,563 89% Morocco 98.7% 32,300,410
16 Ethiopia 22,533,500 31.2% Pakistan 98% 162,487,489
17 Russia 21,513,046 15% Libya 97% 5,592,596
18 Yemen 20,519,792 99% Iraq 97% 25,292,658
19 China 19,594,707 1.5% Tajikistan 95% 6,805,330
20 Syria 16,234,901 88% Jordan 95% 5,471,745
21 Malaysia 14,467,694 60.4% Qatar 95% 819,898
22 Tanzania 12,868,224 35% Senegal 94% 10,459,222
23 Mali 11,062,376 90% Azerbaijan 93.4% 7,584,311
24 Niger 10,499,343 90% Egypt 91% 70,530,237
25 Senegal 10,459,222 94% Mali 90% 11,062,376
26 Tunisia 9,974,201 99% Niger 90% 10,499,343
27 Somalia 8,548,670 99% Gambia 95% 1,433,930
28 Guinea 8,047,686 85% Uzbekistan 89% 23,897,563
29 Azerbaijan 7,584,311 93.4% Turkmenistan 89% 4,407,352
30 Burkina Faso 7,449,626 52% Indonesia 88.2% 207,000,105
31 Kazakhstan 7,137,346 47% Bangladesh 88% 127,001,272
32 Tajikistan 6,805,330 95% Syria 88% 16,234,901
33 Côte d'Ivoire 6,677,043 38.6% Guinea 85% 8,047,686
34 Congo (Kinshasa) 6,008,500 10% Kuwait 85% 1,985,300
35 Libya 5,592,596 97% Bahrain 93.1% 659,682
36 Jordan 5,471,745 95% West Bank and Gaza 84% 3,159,999
37 Chad 5,306,266 54% Kyrgyzstan 80% 4,117,024
38 United States 4,558,068 1.5% United Arab Emirates 76% 1,948,041
39 Turkmenistan 4,407,352 89% Albania 70% 2,508,277
40 Philippines 4,392,873 5% Brunei 64.5% 241,602
41 France 4,214,790 6.9% Sudan 65% 26,121,865
42 Kyrgyzstan 4,117,024 80% Malaysia 60.4% 14,467,694
43 Uganda 4,090,422 15% Sierra Leone 60% 3,610,585
44 Mozambique 3,881,340 20% Lebanon 60% 2,678,212
45 Sierra Leone 3,610,585 60% Burkina Faso 52% 7,449,626
46 Ghana 3,364,776 16% Chad 54% 5,306,266
47 Cameroon 3,276,001 20% Nigeria 50% 64,385,994
48 Thailand 3,272,218 5% Eritrea 50% 2,280,799
50 Mauritania 3,083,772 99.9% Ethiopia 50% 37,533,500
51 Germany 3,049,961 3.7% Bosnia 40% 1,820,879
51 Oman 2,971,567 99% Côte d'Ivoire 38.6% 6,677,043
53 Albania 2,508,277 70% Guinea-Bissau 38% 538,090
54 Malawi 2,431,784 20% Tanzania 35% 12,868,224
55 Kenya 2,368,071 7% F.Y.R. Macedonia 33.3% 685,305
56 Eritrea 2,280,799 50% Suriname 22% 96,391
57 Serbia and Montenegro 2,274,126 21% Serbia and Montenegro 21% 2,274,126
58 Lebanon 2,257,351 59% Mozambique 20% 3,881,340
59 Kuwait 1,985,300 85% Cameroon 20% 3,276,001
60 United Arab Emirates 1,948,041 76% Malawi 20% 2,431,784
source wikipedia

Albania 70% Muslim
Bahrain 81% Muslim
Brunei 64% Muslim
Egypt 90% Muslim
Indonesia 85% Muslim
Kuwait 68% Muslim
Krghystan 75%
Malaysia 60%
Qatar 77%
Sierra Leone 60%

Re: # 122 about earlier point I agree! about second point, i breifly point out.


At its prime in 10th century AD the agricultural products of Sapin were of greta value and the name Check developped from Andulasia and jewels, fine arts , books , defence related goods and international trade with europe and Africa was the source fo its incoem.

In times of peace the energies and sources were diverted towards public welfare projects like aqueducts, market to farm roads and development of new markets for flourishing econmoy of Spain.

Olives and other agricultural products along with porcelain utensils and basically public se4ctor economic activities under the supervision of governemnt werebasic developmental aspect.

It was labour intensive welfare oriented economy with maximum thrust upon provision of welfare and servcies to public.

Its trade ranged from Sapin to canton in China as coins and use of checks show histroically. it was productive economy with specific stress on trade. Any specific question?

yar its stupid to just post nonsense which does not progress the informative nature of this article.

dear author, can you comment on the economy of the al-andlucia and contrast it to its contemperaries? was it an empire? looks like al-andalucia was a relatively small area, so what were the sources of revenue etc?

Re: # 118 Nothing is perfect, all societies ahve limitations and flaws. But at least we can strive fro peace co-existance and understadning by keeping our identities instead of becoming zombies and robots under spell of globalization.

Re: # 118 Actions speal louider than words. For Jews it was a place where they excelled and developed theri culture and were free enough to do theri own cultural realities.

this cultural pluralism is now seen in conflict by some authors under the spell of terrorism... and there is not always unity of thought difference of opinion is beauty of our lives.

Is it not enough to know that there was no Inquisition in Muslim times , but it was THe REAlity of Reconquista

Re: # 116 It is out of context. This ver4se expalins the situation in war when you are atatacked then do,nt run away . then face the enemy and kill as they are ready to kill you. It is for combatants as in all present societies.
it is erroneous to think kiolling innocent people.

Laddu has quoted them with out context and mere translation is not clue, the situation in which they were revealed has bearing on this.

killing one person is killing humanity. Holy Prophet peace be upon him

How about researching what the non-Muslims of the time had to say about this apparently perfect pluralism? And perhaps trying to discover why pluralism is now absent from Islamic countries (notice, I don't say "societies")?

Ref mahfari #115

Would killing a kaffir be sweet for a Muslim?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/books/review/Ramadan-t.html?pagewanted=4

Th e article talks about how to read and understand the Koran.

It still doesn't tell me what to make of the statement "Kill the kaffirs". Is there some deeper, more fundamental meaning beyond the obvious?

Can the Mullahs of Chow explain this statement?

The other question is: is only a Muslim allowed to kill a kaffir or can anyone kill a kaffir with impunity? I mean, can I kill a Hindu in Saudi Arabia and escape all punishment?

Re: # 112 I like muti chur ka Laddu... but laddus are sweet why you are always talking bitter?

Re: # 111 Violoence is neccessary evil pof human nature and you can mere talk in terms of underworld and unable to appreciate art and ebauty. Perhaps Ajenta and Ellora's cave sculpture will be the perfect ... at least to awaken regard and respect for human heritage.

Advanvancement on discussion
From pissers or non-pissers to huggers and non huggers.

Re: # 105

"From the ceilings, corniced with fretted gold, great chandeliers hung. Here were clusters of frail marble columns, which, in the boudoirs of the sultanas, gave way to verd-antique incrusted with lapis lazuli. The furniture was of sandal- or citron-wood, richly inlaid with gold, silver, or precious minerals. Tapestry hid the walls,."

All stolen from subdued kafirs or looted from numerous raids to kafir civilizations or by terrorizing the idolators and kidnapping their artisans, artists and their skills in order to work as slaves on their Tajmahals..........what this Bedouin civilizations had of its own except for that 'terror' and mafiaso code........

Re: # 103

"Getting the point or....?"

What's the point dear? Khul ke kaho?

Ref aslam644 #108

[According to historians most resettled in morocco, their culture survived for some centuries but, they couldn’t recreate the glory and the majesty of Moorish Spain but, ofcourse spain went on to become the superpower of its days with the discovery of Americas because of the knowledge it had learned from the moors.]

The only thing the Arabs could have taught the Spaniards is buggery, their specialty.

So why didn't the frikking Arabs discover America for themselves? Why was it left to Spain to sail across an uncharted ocean?

That is because the sand niggers of Arabia didn't and still don't know sh!t from shinola.

These buggers didn't even know they had oil in the desert. It was left to the Brits and Americans to find it.

Nothing much can come out of a civilization(?) that buggers camels.

...& there's a surname 'Andaluci' among Moroccans now...

Re: # 107
According to historians most resettled in morocco, their culture survived for some centuries but, they couldn’t recreate the glory and the majesty of Moorish Spain but, ofcourse spain went on to become the superpower of its days with the discovery of Americas because of the knowledge it had learned from the moors.

aslam, once the moorish were driven out, what happend to them? did they try to recreate the great cordoba in tunis or somewhere? i guess its not that easy to recreate something this big but any idea what happend to them?

Re: # 105 oh wonderful. so beautiful... but full of pain!

The last sigh of the moor
At length the weeping train reached the summit of an eminence about two leagues distant which commanded the last view of Granada. Here they paused for a look of farewell at the beautiful and beloved city, whose towers and minarets gleamed brightly before them in the sunshine. While they still gazed a peal of artillery, faint with distance, told them that the city was taken possession of and [148] was lost to the Moorish kings forever. Boabdil could no longer contain himself.
"Allah achbar! God is great!" he murmured, tears accompanying his words of resignation.
His mother, a woman of intrepid soul, was indignant at this display of weakness.
"You do well," she cried, "to weep like a woman for what you failed to defend like a man."
Others strove to console the king, but his tears were not to be restrained.
"Allah achbar!" he exclaimed again; "when did misfortunes ever equal mine?"
The hill where this took place afterwards became known as Feg Allah Achbar; but the point of view where Boabdil obtained the last prospect of Granada is called by the Spaniards "El ultimo suspiro del Moro," or "The last sigh of the Moor."
As Boabdil thus took his last look at beautiful Granada, it behooves us to take a final backward glance at Arabian Spain, from whose history we have drawn so much of interest and romance. In this hospitable realm civilization dwelt when few traces of it existed elsewhere. Here luxury reigned while barbarism prevailed widely in Europe. We are told that in Cordova a man might walk ten miles by the light of the public lamps, while centuries afterwards there was not a single public lamp in London streets. Its avenues were solidly paved, while centuries afterwards the people of Paris, on rainy days, stepped from their door-sills into mud ankle-deep. The dwellings were marked by beauty and luxury, while the people of Europe, as a rule [149] in that semi-barbaric period, dwelt in miserable huts, dressed in leather, and lived on the rudest and least nutritive food.
The rulers of France, England, and Germany lived in rude buildings without chimneys or windows, with a hole in the roof for the smoke to escape, at a time when the royal halls of Arabian Spain were visions of grace and beauty. The residences of the Arabs had marble balconies overhanging orange-gardens; their floors and walls were frequently of rich and graceful mosaic; fountains gushed in their courts, quicksilver often taking the place of water, and falling in a glistening spray. In summer cool air was drawn into the apartments through ventilating towers; in winter warm and perfumed air was discharged through hidden passages. From the ceilings, corniced with fretted gold, great chandeliers hung. Here were clusters of frail marble columns, which, in the boudoirs of the sultanas, gave way to verd-antique incrusted with lapis lazuli. The furniture was of sandal- or citron-wood, richly inlaid with gold, silver, or precious minerals. Tapestry hid the walls, Persian carpets covered the floors, pillows and couches of elegant forms were spread about the rooms. Great care was given to bathing and personal cleanliness at a time when such a thought had not dawned upon Christian Europe. Their pleasure-gardens were of unequalled beauty, and were rich with flowers and fruits. In short, in this brief space it is impossible to give more than a bare outline of the marvellous luxury which surrounded this people, recently come from the deserts [150] of Arabia, at a time when most of the remainder of Europe was plunged into the rudest barbarism.
Much might be said of their libraries, their universities, their scholars and scientists, and the magnificence of their architecture, of which abundant examples still remain in the cities of Spain, the Alhambra of Granada, the palace which Boabdil so reluctantly left, being almost without an equal for lightness, grace, and architectural beauty in the cities of the world. Well might the dethroned monarch look back with bitter regret upon this rarest monument of the Arabian civilization and give vent, in farewell to its far-seen towers, to "The last sigh of the Moor."

Re: # 101 thx dear!

Re: # 99 Dear Laddu should Mahabharta be read as a love story but not as a war between kaurawas and Pandwas?

Ramayna should not mention when Hanuman fired up Lanka?

Ashoka's Kalinga war?


Getting the point or....?

Its section VI and not section IV

Re: # 98

Laddu;

So much hatered has compromised your faculties to differentiate between right and wrong. Your country is a signatory to the Geneva convention along with 200 others. Please go through at least Section 1: Article 18 and Section IV: Article 58 - 68 and then read the verses that you posted again with an open eye. Both lay down the code of conduct of an Occupying Army in a captured land and with a minor difference in terminology both laws accord similar treatments to the captives or conquered population. What you refer to as "dhimitude" is referred to as "ceasure of hostilities" in the body of convention.

Here is the text of Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949;

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/deploymentsconflicts/l/blgenevaconv.htm

"All that mahmood mahmood bhai is asking is that the rest of us read and read till we get it. Like he has. And if you still don't get it, examine your own heart, pray to God for truer understanding, ask Him for forgiveness, and read again.

I am told the Buddha too taught that."

Mr. Eklavya khan ,

Please read something about Buddhism before you come out with these nonsense gems that exposes your ignorance and your true muslim identity in praising dhimmitude to hindu idolators.

Buddhism is actually a Nastik world view........it does not postulate a cruel despot like God whom you 'pray' by banging your head 5 times a day!!

Come on you 'moderate' muslims...........ban these verses....flag them red......

#

#

It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he has thoroughly subdued the land. You look for the temporal goods of this world; but God looks to the Hereafter: And God is Exalted in might, Wise.
#

Had it not been for a previous ordainment from God, a severe penalty would have reached you for the ransom that you took.
#

But now enjoy what you took in war, lawful and good: But fear God, for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
#

O Messenger, say to those who are captives in your hands: "If God finds any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you: For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

[8:42] And know that whatever you take as spoils in war, a fifth thereof is for Allah and for the Messenger and the kindred and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if you believe in Allah and what We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Distinction, - the day when the two armies met - and Allah has power to do all that He wills.
[8:43] When you were on the nearer bank of the Valley, and they were on the further bank, and the caravan was below you. And if you had to make an appointment between you, you would have certainly differed with regard to the time of the appointment. But the encounter was brought about without appointment that Allah might accomplish the thing that was decreed, so that he, who had already perished by a clear proof, should perish, and he, would had already come to life by a clear proof, should live. And certainly Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

[8:14] That is because they have opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoso opposes Allah and His Messenger, Then Allah is surely Severe in retribution.
[8:15] That is your punishment, taste it then; and remember that for disbelievers there is the punishment of the Fire.
[8:16] O ye who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve, advancing in force, turn not your backs to them.
[8:17] And whoso turns his back to them on such a day, unless manoeuvring for battle or turning to join another company, he indeed draws upon himself the wrath of Allah, and Hell shall be his abode. And an evil resort it is.
[8:18] So you slew them not; but it was Allah Who slew them. And thou threwest not when thou didst throw, but it was Allah Who threw, that He might overthrow the disbelievers and that He might confer on the believers a great favour from Himself. Surely, Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
[8:19] That is what happened; And know that Allah will weaken the design of the disbelievers.

[8:13] When thy Lord revealed to the angels, saying, 'I am with you; so make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips.'

Re: # 87

Hey, some one got offended by my mentioning Chapter 8 of Quran.

I am sure you should flag all the verses of Chapter 8 as OFFENSIVE that I am going to post right in my next posts.

Indeed Quran is offensive to me and to all idolators like me.

It is as threatening to me as Osama Bin Laden's threats to America.

Come on 'moderate' muslims - ban this book of hate before it consumes you!!

Re: # 59
URstruly you say:

"Re: # 56

The answer is at least two pre-Islamic festivals are celebrated in Saudi Arabia. Both festivals are also the two major festivals in Muslim world at large.

The first festival is the Eid-al-adha, or festival or sacrifice that goes back to approximately 5000 years before Islam dating back to Ibraham (pbuh) who tried to sacrifice his own son Ishmael (pbuh). The comemoration of that event (with sacrifice) continued among Jews for thousands of years except that the conside Jacob (pbuh) as the son who was to be sacrificed.

The second major festival, eid -al-fitre, or festival of feast has also roots in pre-Islamic tradition. It was originally a sort of festival of harvest.

These two festivals are the major festivals celebrated through the Muslim world now.
"

The first festival is the Eid-al-adha, or festival or sacrifice that goes back to approximately 5000 years before Islam dating back to Ibraham (pbuh) who tried to sacrifice his own son Ishmael (pbuh). But the peadophile murderer said that Abraham was the first muslim so how come this was 5,000 yrs before Islam. Or maybe he was a liar also.

Pls enlighten us.

Regards
Sanatani

laddu, you hindus, in fact, ALL you non-semiticists have an absolutely rotten understanding of pluralism or tolerance or secularism.

HOW MANY NEW HINDU TEMPLES HAVE BEEN BUILT SINCE 1947??

COME ON YOU PARAGONS OF 'PLURALISM' TELL US HINDU IDOLATORS ABOUT YOUR 'TOLERANCE'??

Re: # 79

Actually, it is this "good cop- bad cop" routine that has been perfected by these Islamic goons..the 'moderate' goons come and try to produce dis-information regarding their Islamic genocidal intents towards kafirs and mushariqs....... once the guards are lowered by mushriqs ...... the 'extremists' blow the bombs.....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ref Hamed #80

That dear boy Yasser Latif Hamdani has posted this on Islamic Kindness to Kaffirs:

[A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: ’GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?’ Dr Anne Besant declared: ’The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything’. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.]

When you consider that the population of Malabar region at that time did not exceed 2 million, killing 2,000 Hindus means killing one in 1000.

The World will have to kill 1 million+ Muslims out of 1 billion claimed Followers of the True Faith to equal the Kindness of Muslims.

Narendra Modi of India's Gujarat state would have to kill 50,000 Muslims out of a population of 50 million to show the same level of compassion as Moplah Muslims. He would also have to render homeless 2.5 million Muslims instead of only 150,000 just to break even with Muslims.

Can you do arithmetic?

Re: # 47

trolls like Eklavya would do everything, including picking up an idolator identity, to confuse us regarding the true nature of the "religion of peace"......... we just have to read chapter 8 of Quran and ask what Allah has to do with the war booties???

Now, that is what is called the magic of Nizam ud din Aulia :)

Oh mahmood mahmood, you needn't be unnecessarily polite :)

It's hard to see instances of Islamic bigotry, definitely not on Chowk, and very definitely not on this board. Do you see any?

I think it is the magic of Nizam ud din Aulia RA working....

Oh mahmood mahmood, you needn't be unnecessarily polite :)

It's hard to see instances of Islamic bigotry, definitely not on Chowk, and very definitely not on this board. Do you see any?

I think it is the magic of Nizam ud din Aulia RA working....

Re: # 82 welcome!bigotry is wrong from all sides ... no specifications!

Mahmood Mahmood thank you for your kind responses to Hindu bigotry. May we all learn to walk in the footsteps of Nizam ud din Auliya RA, and his humble monotheist disciple the Buddha RO.

Re: # 80 agreed well said. These guys are on Chowk to abuse and show their frustration. But on the footsteps of Nizam ud din Auliya RA if some one places thorns in your path do not do it yourself, because then every where will be thorns! MAy Allah bless us to be patient and help bear difference of opinion and loet the truth prevail!

Harimau

ANYONE who calls for all of any people to be "wiped out" must be somewhat insane.

I don't have to take the high ground with you or be presumptuous about my level of intelligence vs your's.

Anyone that professes to want millions of people killed is atleast somewhat mentally ill.

Seriously, consider your point of view. How dehumanized you have made this group of so-called savages. I don't know what has happened to you to make you so extreme. Your symptoms are a symptom of the times....life is cheap and people from all sides kill others easily.

Maybe humanity is a little sick these days. Usually, your opinions would be considered fairly out-of-the-ordinary. They are all too familiar.

Ref Hamed #77

[The Christian and Muslim majorities in Indonesia both supported the takeover of East Timor. DOPE! And this was a political and racial genocide that had little to do with religion.]

Just as the bakra is happy to be sacrificed during Eid, the Christians of East Timor voluntarily agreed to be part of Indonesia. That has been the story yopu Muslims have been peddling for centuries to whitewash your crimes.

Tell me, did the Christians of Armenia also voluntarily agree to be killed and deported by Turkey?

[Just like the Americans have committed in Iraq or the Indians committed in Gujarat where in February, 2002, Hindu extreme right-wing religious organizations, under the umbrella of the Sangh Parivar, organized and carried out a genocidal ethnic cleansing of Muslims in the state of Gujarat, in western India]

The Americans are NOT doing enough. If ALL the Muslims in the world are wiped out, then Americans would have done enough.

And in Gujarat, how can you forget that BEFORE any killing of the Muslims began, Hindu pilgrims were burnt to death on a train by rampaging Islamic thugs? You thought there would be no retaliation, didn't you? Well, you thought wrong. And after that, the Mozzies of Gujarat are not willing to say "boo" to a goose.

[Between 2,000 and 5,000 Muslims were slaughtered, and more than 150,000 rendered homeless and destitute.]

Sheesh, man, even the SECULAR Government of India a mximum of 2,000 deaths out of which one-third were Hindus. Somehow, you people seem to be interested in sending more Mozzies to jannat. Are you counting on the fact Allah, may a thousand fleas infect his armpits, is as illiterate as Mohammad the Bedouin, and would be able to produce 72 virgins per martyr on demand? And can you tell me if the gender of the ghilmans is male and if so what is a martyr supposed to do with 24 of them?

[Your information is pitiful and completely indicative of the quality of your thinking.]

I bow before your superior Islamic Intellect. We are not worthy of the attention you are paying us.

FakirIppi:
Somehow I am wrong that Abbasid defeated Ummayad at Baghdad.
Capital of Umayyad was Damascus, and Abbasid Baghdad.
The following is from Wikipedia
{The Battle of the Zab took place on the banks of the Great Zab river in what is now Iraq on January 25, 750. It spelled the end of the Umayyad Caliphate and the rise of the Abbasids}

RE: #76

LOL Harimau. Usually, bigots have their stuff a little more together than you and pmisha.

The Christian and Muslim majorities in Indonesia both supported the takeover of East Timor. DOPE! And this was a political and racial genocide that had little to do with religion.

Just like the Americans have committed in Iraq or the Indians committed in Gujarat where in February, 2002, Hindu extreme right-wing religious organizations, under the umbrella of the Sangh Parivar, organized and carried out a genocidal ethnic cleansing of Muslims in the state of Gujarat, in western India. Between 2,000 and 5,000 Muslims were slaughtered, and more than 150,000 rendered homeless and destitute.

Your information is pitiful and completely indicative of the quality of your thinking.

Ref Hamed #55

[Many Muslim societies are more tolerant and multicultural than Western ones.

A good example on a grand scale is Indonesia. Look at the affirmation from the Whitehouse following 9-11:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010919-2.html]

Are you talking about the same Indonesia which, when East Timor demanded independence, massacred its population and sent half of the population into forced exile?

That indeed would be Muslim tolerance of Christians in action. We are left to wonder what Muslim Intolerance would mean.

[You and harimau should join a club or something and work out your furstrations in a gym or so something positive instead of contributing to the problem you claim you are so outraged by: namely, intolerance.]

Nope, we will start a Movement to Nuke Mecca to demonstrate to the Mozzies what Tolerance Islamic Style is like.

[It is not good to feed that poison in your head and in your heart.]

It is Love of Mankind that recently sent Benazir Bhutto to her reward in jannat.

Ref Eklavya #48

[Mishra ji, but we see Muslim societies as monoliths when they are not. They are tolerant. From sufism to wahabism, there is a huge amount of of pluralism.]

Except that Sunnis can't stand the Shias and Shias can't stand the Sunnis and everybody hates the Ismailis except that they have too much money. If the Ismailis kept their money as gold and jewels in their mosques, they would have been wiped out but unfortunately for the Sunnis, it is all in foreign (infidel) banks and attacking Ismaili mosques will not bring war booty to mainstream Muslims unlike what happened in India 1000 years ago.

#73 I suppose that would make India multi-cultural too, they support the "culture" of urine consumption and the "culture" of railroad squatters...

#56 Posted by pmishra2 on January 3, 2008 10:29:30 am


How multi-cultural are they?


saudi arabia is multi-cultural..they support the culture of suicide bombing and the culture of car bombing using a remote control...

HP writes "How could a religion promote plurality?"

Through its followers by i) emphasising freedom of conscience (as the Quran does) and ii) by freeing the mind of the grasp of tradition and narrow partisanship (as the Quran does).In short when a "religion" is anti-Church and religious bureaucracy, it would promote pluralism.

its sad to see the stench of hindu-hatred and hindu phobia here...

Mind you, this is from a group of people ostensibly celebrating "plural culture"...

Can a shark give a sincere discourse on the virtues of vegetarianism? This seems to be what is going on here..

"the local taxiwalas, camelwalas had no clue about the pyramids etc"

First, I am glad she asked camelwalas. second, the taxi wala close to the prymids did not know about the pyramids? I like that and obviously you believed it. Is it possible that she was still roaming around in Bombay thinking about Iskandria?

Aik jhot ko chupany kay liya becahry jangi ko 100 jhoot boolnay parain gay!

Sudhri vanj. Koorh thou galhian! Lapaar haini poa.

hp
the local taxiwalas, camelwalas had no clue about the pyramids etc..and the guides refered to pyramid builders as "their" accomplishment not "ours".

LOL
Ahole is here too. Must be the pride thing...
Jangi,
So if the egyptians are beating their chests in front of the Pyramids in desert, they are considered proud of their heritage?
What if it is moharam and they are all shia?

"they tell stories and sing ballads about some anceint king "

So you are saying that "she" knew egyptians don't have stories about the Pyramids and other schit so they are not proud.

Buddy I am just trying to figure out how "she" figured out they are not proud?

hp you have a valid point in being "specific" about pride..but i do notice pride amongst rajastanis about their old crumbling desert forts, they tell stories and sing ballads about some anceint king and sometimes about his horse too. and these are not some tourist entertainment shyte..its in the folklore.

whats getting you all azzburny man?

I am sorry to see that discussion and appreciation of this brilliant article celebrating the grand tolerant, pluralistic, egalitarian, rational spirit of Al-Islam as exemplified by the glorious civilization of Al-Andalus, has been disrupted by the arrival of a troop of hate-mongering Hinjus who are here only to cavil, carp, criticise, and poke cruel fun.

It is high time these bigoted troublemakers were shown the door so that civilized discourse can continue unimpeded. Perhaps some bannings are in order. Chowk Staff please do the needful!

"she also noitice no real pride amongst"

heheheh. How do you notice pride? Did she ask eyptians: are you proud of this schit sitting in desert or she just observed them getting on the roof of the pyramid and taking aim at the doors?