Psychology of Men's Honour and Women's Sexuality

You have interviewed a great many immigrants and it seems the main suffering of men is that of guilt.The women and girls mostly bear the brunt of violence.Just wouldn’ t help comparing the picture to here-Pakistan.Particularly because you have strongly suggested professional help to be sought by these victims.Putting men’ s honor and women’ sexuality to the issue of a patient’ s needs, whether the patient be a man or a woman-frankly raises one’ s hackles. Of course the patient is adequately covered by lack of inhibition resulting from all that pain and despair.but this perspective gets blown up out of proportion by people belonging to the human (without the letter e in the end) species who happen to be his friends, family, acquaintances.Also it is a matter of shame,that the professional workers of our mental health institutions play to the gallery…and put the patient to disadvantage and his near ones to the eminent position of honor for the men in the family and matters of sexuality for the women at the same time.

Institutions for Mental Health ought to be Empowered to receive those cases that turn up all on their own.It may be that the abnormally behaving person,who is dreadfully frightened too, maybe someone who is terribly mentally upset.He may have been chased all the way, from the roads, herded and "shoo-ed"into the Mental Health precincts .Just because he is alone, does not mean that he would be physically thrown out into the streets.I did say EMPOWERED.
The institution would relieve his fright and anxiety ,treat him, keep him, diagnose him, rehabilitate him and place him in good care.The other type of mentally challenged person, coming to the MH institution, is the one brought by someone, who is a complete stranger to him.The EMPOWERED Authority should accept the mentally upset individual for care and treatment and make things as smooth as possible for the person who brought him.If you are that 'paranoid' about the person, who you might fancy to be an 'abandon-er'.Then get his moniker photographed, his thumbprint taken, get the equipment installed which compares the prints with NADRA id cards.Get all his bio-data, verify them, get all Biometrics to surround him like an MRI machine .But let him go ASAP without harrassing him.
The third type of a person who can arrive alone at a MH reception center is the intellectual, and educated one.The one who is stressed out, mentally upset ,thinks his 'neurotic' s/are going too far, and he needs a psychoanalyst.Such people frequently do consult at and visit MH institution without hitch and are not ashamed of it.If they come in the middle of the night extremely panicky, looking "incoherent", that is no reason for you to turn them down.If you turn down such a literate case then I would say you have been empoWERED for nothing.Remember such cases might seek legal cover because they are handling court cases, property matters, family financial matters.
Another type of a case who can turn up alone in any part of the institution , is one who may have been earlier discharged from it.Maybe the psychotherapists who used to treat him have left for their private practice or for abroad.Maybe some of the staff may still remember him, but is on some other duty shift or vacation .Treat the loner, as a patient, treat him as a human bein' who has given you the honor of being chosen to help him in his time of need.Treat him with dignity.It is your job.I would recommend tailor made course on humanistic psychotherapy for the entire staff of a MH unit, before they start their professional work.

Re: # 110 majmi00

Thanks for pointing out #64 and its response #65. Yes, I did read those and did notice that Dr Sohail prefers qualitative analysis over quantitative when it comes to human "psychology" ... That is his prerogative and its fine by me, because I do not consider psychotherapy as much more than just another endeavour to understand, a very complex Mandelbrotian system (the human mental processes) by using a simplistic reductionist approach. It has the same probability of success as does looking for a black cat in a pitch dark coal cellar, blindfolded. You may not see the cat, BUT IF it is there, you might hear it meow, if it choses to.

My allusion, however, was towards a "sociological" phenomenon, ie, correlation of divorce rate with upwards mobility and/or financial independence amongst relatively younger desi women.

...SR

Re: # 119
Dear Ras...can you be more specific and elaborate on your comments. for me they are too vague. being a writer you are aware that message given should be the same as message reveived otherwise in the words of faiz
wo baat saray fasanay main jis ka zikr na tha
wo baat un ko bohut nagawaar ghuzri hay
sincerely sohail

Some good suggestions here.

It will take another generation and hopefully

a more integrated picture will emerge.


Ras

I think you are absolutely on the right footing regarding principle's of life as dictated by Islam. Actually if we looked at principle's of life in other great religions of the world they would pretty much be in harmony with each other.

Although I don't want to editorialize what the author has written, however I may suggest that he is speaking to the cultural differences, where east meets west.

May Allah give us the serenity to accept things which cannot be changed; Give us courage to change things which must be changed; And the wisdom to distinguish one from the other. Ameen!

The rest of nasah's ramblings are unitelligible and difficult to decipher.

"Now coming back to your original question whether pre-marital sex is a sin. In my humble opinion it is an absolute sin yet we as a humans, full of errors and short comings,are not in a position to pass a decree upon two willing humans. Only Allah is all knowing and merciful and the final judge of our actions."

youdoseem to be open minded -- but if you bring male Allah into sex -- the sex will remain a catholic sin -- and dishonorable sex will continue to deserve honor killing.

"Only Allah is (NOT) all knowing and merciful and (NOT) the final judge of our actions." -- It is YOU who has to be "knowing and merciful to yourself" -- and YOU are "the final judge of YOUR action" -- whether you need to go or not go to a HIV clinic.

I am quite amazed and amused that so many people including esteemed psuchiatrists (presumably) seem to hold The Rule Book on what the relationship between an INDIVIDUAL woman and an INDIVIDUAL man should be, could be, must be! All relationships are fraught with joys, sometimes incredible pain, initimacy and tenderness. All of this is in the private realm and each relationship is unique, a product of the buffettings of the history of the individuals and their shared dreams for life. The decisions are theirs alone and there is no such thing as "divorce is bad" or "pre marital sex is wrong". Sex is nothing but an eloquent, accessible language to express that most fleeting and magnificient of human emotions, love and who are we to questions it expression or lack of it? In absence of sex, love exists and is expressed in just as myriad , if not as dramatic a manner.Ultimately, it is the quotidian aspects of life and living that threatens to kill or rejuvenates a relationship between man and woman. Tried agreeing who would do the dishes and see love disappear instantly?! See? I told you :-))

First of all let's not be fixated on pre/post marital text. The gist of the article speaks eloquently about the cultural/religious differences found between the east and west and ways to ease the growing tensions arising from them. It is ironic that we Muslim's are so pre-occupied with an "activity" that is as short-lived as the "three" lettered word.

Now coming back to your original question whether pre-marital sex is a sin. In my humble opinion it is an absolute sin yet we as a humans, full of errors and short comings,are not in a position to pass a decree upon two willing humans. Only Allah is all knowing and merciful and the final judge of our actions.

I hope my attempt at answering your question was worth the effort.

May Allah forgive us all for snatching the authority of judgment from him.

Re: # 103
dear nature lover...psychiatrists are human too...needing support in the time of crisis....are you thinking of becoming one? smiles...sohail

"If any of you were wondering why I use the tone I do in my posts,"(masadi)

masadi saab -- nobody is wondering -- just calm down.

Kulharee writes "Masadi dude, you got it all wrong, "

I got it perfectly well what the pervert was getting at, there is no logical connection between females considering me attractive and myself considering me attractive, and no connection whatsoever between how attractive a person considers himself and masturbation.

By the way I am redflagging both your posts, I know you are in with the chowk staff an illicit relationship so you wont be banned but both your posts, the first in which you call me a "mofo" and the second which presents a fiction of the crusader's creation through which they attack a figment of their imagination regarding the prophet, are both against chowk guidelines....

Masadi, speaking of divorce, can a 6 year old girl divorce her 55 year old hubby in Islam?

SR #100:

Thought you were smart … reason for disappointment is something that you wrote: Maybe Dr. Sohail is able to lay his hands on quantitative sociological data that describes this phenomenon

See what Khurram wrote in #64 … How valid is this methodology? Does it have limitations? How does it compare to the methods of sociologists?

Now look at Dr. Sohail’s response to it in #65 … the second school that Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung and many other psychologists belong they pick one case or a few cases and analyze their behaviours, thought patterns and conflicts and give their analysis or impressions. …. now this is a theory you can agree or disagree

SR: See for yourself how good is chowk doctor and still your hopes are high for something meaningful that he does not have. Go back to see what he thinks is “theory” … he is clueless about what to call a theory and what to call just a ‘conjecture’ … his essay should have told you his level of psychologic and social expertise :)

But don’t mind … you are still the smart one on chowk other than masadi who always sounds uptight but man!! … He is good on scientific method.

Masadi dude, you got it all wrong, what Hamid Sahib was insinuating that when you masturbate, you must think that you are really pretty hot. He wasn’t implying that you don’t do it more than you do. By the way, you are the dumbest mofo here, with little intelligence and a total lack of self esteem. If you had any self esteem, you wouldn’t be so negative or bitter all the time. There still is a chance to learn from people like Hamid Sahib and not be so negative all the time. Are you really so dumb or do you have to make a concerted effort to come across as one? Please let us know. Thanks and god bless.

nasah writes "Divorce is the most civilized way to say goodbye to a dysfunctional relationship -- "

No, divorce signifies a breakdown/end to marriage. Why so many marriages are breaking down in the West tells us that the institution of marriage and family is in jeapordy. If divorce though liberally allowed (as in Muslim marriage practices that are not marred by Hindu customs) but was still rare we can guage the health of the institution through that, and the Muslim family is relatively healthier, as a whole, than the Western family in tatters...

Hamid #105, I am redflagging your post which is nothing but your convuluted logic (women thinking that I am attractive has absolutely no logical connection to the second part you made up) trying to poke fun based on contrived nonsense, against another poster having nothing to do with his post.

#40 dr sohail: you had written "does love have to be always connected with reproduction. i know so many men and women who do not want to become parents. what do you think of such people..?"

as Bill Clinton would say - depends how you define "love".

if "love" involves sexual activity, then clearly the couple is not carrying out their part of the deal to mother nature (selfish gene?) regarding propagation of the species. Since mother nature never asked the couple to sign a contract, there is obviously nothing wrong with this.

but "love" is something else - e.g. love of learning about the the universe - then again the brain obviously did not evolve for this purpose. it evolved in response to other needs - e.g. to make up for our puny bodies by supplementing them with tools and tactics to attack other animals. so again - nothing wrong here.

Indeed - when you reflect on the above examples, it seems obvious that "misuse" of our abilities for things other than what led to their development is in fact what distinguishes humans from other animals!!

so - short answer to your question is: i think couples practicing family planning are doing a great service to mankind. and the hell with what the Pope and the neo-conservatives think.

masadi,

"I am a very handsome, desireable individual" ...... so is that why you are always making love to yourself ?

Divorce is the most civilized way to say goodbye to a dysfunctional relationship -- its increase can only means that we getting more civilized by the day -- its minimal presence in the Desi families means that we are still the self-punishing masochist and partener-torturing barbarians.

sweet Home shold be a shangrila -- not a bitter abu gharib.

Dear Dr Sohail,

You are a psychiatrist.

What needs to be done in a case where a psychiatrist needs to see a psychiatrist.

Do you think a psychiatrist will treat a psychiatrist or a board of psychiatrists will be needed.

Regards,

Re: # 97

"Your “ardour” seems to have a very long half-life. With a “peak” at five and a limit of ten years you must be an outlier – more than two standard deviations off to the side. In my humble observation the fire works last anywhere from six to eighteen months. That is the 68% aggregate around the mean, within one standard deviation."(SR)

SR -- you are brilliant as an statistician -- it is true that "the fire works last anywhere from six to eighteen months" -- but you did not integrate the "family guy" into the curve -- that wild joker may skew your standaard deviation to almost another 3 years before the handcuffs of love atart to become the chains of confinement against your will.

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Re: # 77 by Essensaur

I second Mohsin Hamid (#78) in praising your post. Excellent indeed. You have obviously given this matter a lot of thought.

The whole myth of desi marriages being more successful than western ones is crumbling before our eyes. As desi babus and bibi jees become upwardly mobile and internationalised their divorce rate sky rockets for the sames reasons as you allude to. Maybe Dr. Sohail is able to lay his hands on quantitative sociological data that describes this phenomenon. If not, this could be a good PhD thesis for some aspiring ABCD or BBCD sociologist.

...SR

Re: # 96
dear essensaur..thank you for your kind words. readers like you, nasah, hurricane and khurram make a dialogue worthwhile and inspire me to write more. sincerely sohail

Re: # 86
dear hurricane...it has been my experience that humanists belong to three groups that i call
religious humanists
spiritual humanists
and
secular humanists
all these people genuinely respect human beings. they want to decrease human suffering and raise social consciousness so that humanity can evolve...i conside martin luther king and desmund tutu religious humanists, walt whitman and other mystic poets spiritual humanists and mandela a secular humanist. for human growth and evolution religious, spiritual and secular humanists need to work together like desmund tutu and nelson mandela worked together for the betterment of blacks in south africa. sincerely sohail

Re: # 95 nash wrote:

["... (1) Islam ...allows 4 wives ... somewhere in the ... translation ... the number ... got messed up ... may have meant -- only one wife at a time -- but a new wife for every new decade --

... (2) the ardor ... peaks at five and then ... it ends at ten.

... (3) with the changing times for feminism allowing the woman also the equal access ..."]

Let’s take your three points one at a time.

(1) The limit of 4 is purely tradition and was not imposed until the Abbasi period. The Prophet and two of the “Khaufa-i-Rashideen” had 13 wives each.
The number four comes from a verse #3 in sura An-Nisa (4:3), but it is to be seen in context of the previous verse (4:2)… The context is the fiduciary responsibility towards the “orphans” under one’s trusteeship. Presumably there were minors whose inheritance was placed under trusteeship of certain people and those people are being asked not to embezzle the property of those minors but to return it to them upon their coming of age. But then, in 4:3, curiously a concession is being given. (Being practical minded the Prophet must have anticipated that some people will be rascals and will not be able to resist the temptation of misappropriating the property of those minors, so he said, okay, if you must, then at least take them in as your wives – if they are girls) Thus the trustee is asked to take as his wives, “Two, or Three, or Four” … clearly this is rhetorical and could only mean “two, or three, or four, ad infinitum”… Plus there is one more point. Even if you insist that the number Four is an absolute limit, even then the point is that an unmarried bachelor could not be appointed a trustee of orphan girls. He had to be a family man. So therefore, if you include the one wife he already has, in addition to the four that are being permitted, that still makes it AT LEAST FIVE WIVES. Not Four.

(2) Your “ardour” seems to have a very long half-life. With a “peak” at five and a limit of ten years you must be an outlier – more than two standard deviations off to the side. In my humble observation the fire works last anywhere from six to eighteen months. That is the 68% aggregate around the mean, within one standard deviation.

(3) I am all for equal access but most women seem to exhibit “nesting” behaviour, which seems to favour serial monogamy, as opposed to a man’s parallel polygamy. It must all be related to maximising the probability of genetic survival. A man releases a minimum of 50 million sperms at each ejaculation, while a woman releases only one ovum per month. Instinctively, their genetic survival strategies have to differ in order to confer survival advantage.

A man can maximise his genetic survival by spreading his DNA as far and wide as possible. It’s the short gun, or the machine gun approach. While the woman must adopt a sharp-shooter approach. Particularly, since the human gestation period is one of the longest in the animal kingdom and the period of helplessness of the new born is extraordinarily prolonged, she must try and “retain” her suitor (or suitors in some cases) for as long as possible.

Make no mistake, though, that the man is dispensable. When the sabre tooth tiger comes to the cave, he is supposed to guard the entrance while she grabs the baby and flees.

...SR

The author says: "It was ironic that many of these men felt guilty about having visited prostitutes and conducted secret liaisons with women. Some of them suffered from a Madonna-whore complex, perceiving women either as pure and angelic or impure and sexual. They could not integrate friendship, sensuality and sexuality in the same relationship. They had no experience of knowing women as fellow human beings, but only as sex objects."

On this theme, CHOWK had published a very absorbing fictional narrative by Athar Shiraz a few years back. I would recommend "Nuns and Tawaifs" and the correspondence that followed to all readers who may be interested in understanding the "complex" as well as its specific manifestation penned by a very promising writer.

http://www.chowk.com/articles/4831

I see that the correspondence only lists some of the interacts. Wonder what happened to the rest.

BTW, I was very impressed by the self-profile posted by SR on CHOWK. Very. Such a comprehensive and honest understanding of the self is necessary if we males from the subcontinent are to permit our society to progress from centuries-old intolerance and frequent resort to the defense mechanisms of Denial and Projection to an enlightened society with potential. And yes, a sense of humor helps too.

Having said that, I must say that I too remain optimistic about our future like Dr Sohail mentioned simewhere. For, "Stone walls do not a prison make, nor iron bars a cage". We will break the shackles of traditions that are not relevant anymore, and the key is to take small steps in understanding ourselves better. CHOWK and many of its its authors like Shiraz and Dr Sohail help in that direction, and so do the contrarian interactors who voice their opposition in their own interesting way.

Essensaur

Re: # 92

As a traditional family man I would have to say I love Islam as a religion of nature and natural instincts for romance and procreation because it allows 4 wives -- even though a little too few and a little too crowded -- may be because of short life expectancy of the times -- 14 hundred years ago.

I am sure somewhere in the compilation and translation of Qoran by a non Arabic scholar hazrat Salman Farsi -- the only intellectual sahabi whose mother tongue was Persian not Arabic -- the number and sequence got messed up.

What the God of the Natural religion may have meant for the 'mankind' may have been -- only one wife at a time -- but a new wife for every new decade -- because truly the ardor, the romance, the love the fun peaks at five and then decline downhill till it ends at ten.

Now that the life expectancy has almost doubled -- the number of wives could also be doubled to 8 -- with the changing times for feminism allowing the woman also the equal access to 8 husbands.

What a happy world it would have been without war without pestilence, and without religion except Islam -- Agar Firdaus burr rooay zameeN ust -- hameeN usto hameenusto hameen ust

-- instead of becoming : "agar dauzakh tu burr rooay zameeN ust....

.....and then and then only people wouldn't have to run away before women make them vacuum the staircase or make them rinse the plate before putting in the dish washer -- women will gladly vacuum the staircase and rinse the plate herself before putting....for most of the decade before they start to ask at the end decade -- why?

as Faiz would say -- "youN nu tha maiN nay faqat chaha tha youN hojaaaye"

Re: # 88 M. Hamid wrote: ["... once you have been with a woman that you didn't pay for come back ..."]

One does not pay a woman to have sex... NO. "Free" sex is abundantly available to anyone who seeks it...(though what most consider "free" is actually much, much more costly, than the so-called "paid" variety)... any way, my point is that no one actually PAYS for sex. What one pays for is for them to go away and leave you alone afterwards.

Having walked down the isle a number of times myself, I have finally learnt a thing or two about Marriage and Morals.

...SR

Re: # 92 You have got right , happy marriage is concious compromise and then going sleep happily and count blessings.

Re: # 90

toofan mian,

........ i don't eat jack fruit or deal in coals .... there is nothing valid about anything masadi says - he poses a grave and immediate threat to children ....... i have been asking chowk staff to ban him ever since he reared his ugly head on this forum but instead they keep on banning you and other harmless interactors whose only sin is using an odd epithet or kalima now and then ..... don't encourage this fool who blames the american elite for his hemmaroids and sexual inadequacy .....

....... as for this marriage thing, after twenty years of matrimonial bliss i still think it is highly overated ...... mrs hamidm is a good woman but i would trade her in for nicole kidman and two sturdy cows in a minute ..... she is a good cook, but if i could marry ruth (chris's mother) or the chef at the capital grill (even though he might be a man) i would ...... and if i wanted a cleaning lady i would marry the mexican maid at the mariott .... and to be perfectly honest, she would rather be married to tom cruise or brad pitt or one of those weird guys on project runway ....... i think i will run away before she makes me vacuum the stairs or yells at me for not rinsing the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher .......

Re: # 90

Hurricane Sahib:

I am glad you have taken up where I left in legitimizing the need for Massaddi Mian less abuses. This new Massaddi Mian he has already showed.

My appeal to Hamidm Sahib is to go easy on both Massaddi Mian and Romair. Support me Hurricane, after all I used your re-incarnate Salim Sahib to make my point.

Re: # 88 hamid sahib,

...as a fellow interactor with a fondness for using....ellipticals....I would beseech you to pay attention to the content of masadi's message and not the tone of it :).

his arguments cannot be discarded outright...he has a lot of valid points...

Re: # 87

anil mian,

.... as usual i agree with you ..... reciting some mumbo jumbo in arabic or walking around a fire does not make a marriage ........ you can have a perfectly happy relationship without having to sit through two hours of speeches by people who have had too much to drink and contributing to your father's bankruptcy ....... it all depends on good sex and how two people handle conversation at the breakfast table (after good sex) .......... and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with the extended family .... as a matter of fact, although i cannot prove it, i am willing to bet that orphans with no living relatives have the best marriages ..... and god forbid, if a girl's in-law's are alive she should move away at least five hundred miles away - if you happen to live in the maldives or maui you should never marry ....

Re: # 82

masadi,

.... will you please shut up! ... this is one subject that you will never now anything about because i doubt any woman would ever let you get within ten feet of her ..... once you have been with a woman that you didn't pay for come back and talk to us ....

Re: # 78

Hamidm Sahib:

Marriage as the institution has been slower to transition from agrigarian times until into 1960s (Khalid Suhail can correct me). Roles and spaces in those times were well defined, especially in the days of family farms, a large family was a necessity. Pro-creation was essential. It provided manpower - Salim sahib may throw imagining himself work lock step and sync with Oxen. This is precisely what changed on the male side.

However, in those days "you must settle down now" reminders from mother were common. Heck they found a bride or a groom in India, and here they "introduced". Procreation remained important.

Recreational sex was a taboo. With Victorian dresses to 50s dresses, Salim Sahib (I am using him to point generational change) would have problem deciding where to start looking at to admire. He sees beauty differently than probably Hamidm Sahib. For me, Nutan and Juhi Chawla were beauty. Bipasa Basu is a passe, Aishwarya is glamourous. Sushmita Sen has elegant beauty. Before anyone accuses me.

This emancipation in women, and freedom in men played very important role. Even though, in industrial society, women started finding jobs in industrial phase. Their role was stereo-typed. I was reading an history of Harvard Business School. Right until late 60s, it had women who will come in to read essays written by students for their class. Professors considered "English" reading to be below them. In those days, it was customary to bring some of these "brighter" to conduct classes. Remember, HBS classes in those days were all men. Many romances started and resulted in marriage this way. Hence the waitlist for "smart women" grew. These stereotyped roles conformed to post-union roles in married phase and family.

The new phase, post 60s (baby boomers / hippies) is when women became empowered and became independent. I do wonder now what the hell did I see in those long hair, drooping moustache and bell - bottoms. Hey my girl friend liked it too, that is all I can say. When my daughter somehow found my student ID card and surprised me with my picture, I was ashamed to look at myself. Point is men-women had different tastes and reasons to be together. I know a couple of American and Australian women who chose not to get married. Now they regret, as their urge for recreational sex went down, and motherhood became more dominant. This is the time when probably divorce rates peeked as well.

Fear of AIDs in 80s put a damper to sex-revolution even further, and a need for "committed" relationship started.

Today'e empowered daughters will create their own social definitions of marriage and family. Pendulam in society is not reversing the direction, that many sociologists say happen from generation to generation.

Evolution in society is still on, as far as I can see. I guess Pendulam Theory may have lived its time.

Clearly, empowered daughters earn as much (the gender gap is closing) as any male. If education is any indicator, female score better than male. Therefore, equality in roles will be very dominant, rather rigid definitions of 50s - 80s. Hence family and marriage will get redefiined. I know my mother was the principal of the school she had founded. She still tended to us , cooked meal, before going
and after coming from the school. I do not see my married elder daughter doing it. They both share it.

So what is holding them? It cannot be economic dependence, it cannot be pro-creation. Can it be love as the glue? What else can it be?

It is very interesting even in as conservative place as Afganistan, it is very interesting, I must share this with you. Recently, I have been associated with a micro-finance NGO. It is world's largest, and micro lends exclusively to women in Sub continent, Africa and Latin America. A few months back they had an Afgan-American woman who went back to Kabul to set up and run micro-finance institution called "Parvaaz".

She told me that now, micro finance institutions are the largest provider of jobs in Kabul. I asked her what is the social impact on Afgan-men and Afgan families of emppowering women to start their businesses and bring income home.

I thought it would hit the "macho" Afgan's ego in the gut and turn more violent. She told me, on the contrary, their men folks accept them even more, and cooperate to sell cheese in the market etc. for them. Parvaaz and other micro financing institutions in Afganistan, according to her, now have financed about 30,000 women. Interestingly, she told me that in these families violence and abuse went down, and boys started going to school. Families became healthier too.

I will leave it to Dr. Khalid Suhail to make sense out of distinctly different phenomenon of empowerment of women in the west and in, shall I say, the east.

Would it be wrong to say in one case empowered women demand independence, in other case they become more equal partner within a family unit?

Our daughters generation will define family and marriage differently for sure.

Re: # 85 dr.sohail and talk of pub

"PUB" is friendlier and doesn't have the "lair" feel to it. And people will let you convert them to any belief if you ply them with liquor.

My love of the almighty was initially inherited. It was supremely fear based in the beginning. My daadi was all into the fire and brimstone.

I grew away from the vengeful God of the yahud and mullahs, and come to find the almighty in every molecule around me through a meditation on subtle energies. God is in the subtle details.

I am a "humans first" type of person too...it is completely compatible with my religion :)

Re: # 80
dear hurricane...if you do not like the word HUB we can call it PUB to welcome you....
how did you develop your love of God? is it inherited or aquired?
sincerely
sohail

Dear akhanusa,

When people have biased opinions and they are obsessed with wealth and "selfish pleasure" then they cannot think objectivily..

In Eastern setup of traditional marriage (except few cases) couples enjoy bounties of life much better than the cheating kind of dating setup where animal instincts have no limits and there is always distrust, fear of disease etc etc..

In arranged marriages love grow naturally with the passage of time..and now a days... parents do arrange pre wedding meetings of boys and girls and give choices to choose,,but opening of jam bottles are not practiced....which we can say is not healthy any way..

In the western world it is noticed that several couples who were "living happily together" and woman was making their own money and working like a donkey..but when ever those working women expressed their desires to have a baby or to get married with that so called sexual partner or "free lover" of several years then he got angry and threatened to leave due to "babies burden" and toleave her...

Where did the love go...??? was it just a selfish sex...??

Not a decent way to satisfy natural cravings...and natural rights to have sex or have babies.. any way..

Industrial world some times can be very cruel,..where women have to work in order to survive..and if they want to have a baby then either they can have them from so called lover found on the street ..who most of the cases ,will leave after the pregnancy...and then she will be running to courts and DNA tests ..in order to get child support...and this happens mostly among troubled people....

It is noticed that healthy and mature western families had healthy traditions and had father figures intact ..and they were the ones who produced better children and better citizens..

You can also read my reply # 26 in this article ..which is long and is not very articulate ..but it can still give you some hints about your questions..??

Bottom line is that if any man is not marrying his sex partner then he is not sincere and he doesnot know what true love is..??

Thanks

yaar masadi,

your message is fantastic.

your rhetoric is way over the top.

I would suggest watching some of the softer appearing evangelists like Pat Robertson, to learn how to coat your bitter pills in the right dose of honey.

Hamid writes "excellent post! ......... the institution of formal marriage is highly overrated and had everything to do with the economic dependence of women and very little to do with relationships"

An idiot comments based on personal experience of 35 years (as if that means anything, it does not because his data regardless of the length of the experience is totally unscientific) and the bigger idiot says its fantastic and we can all go home feeling all good about the tattered family institution in the US and most of the Western world. No, the facts are the most (until the law recently very very recently caught up to them) fathers bailed out without even child support, the women languished in poverty facing a multiple percent drop in their standard of living and the surest predictor of women that will live in poverty is them either getting divorced or having a child outside of wedlock. the happy picture of women in the west maybe represent the less than half of a half percent of women that might share in the lifestyle of the hollywood celebrity. The reality for the rest is very different. There is no happy christmas gift sharing and all the other BS that he came up with, there is distrust, mistrust, property and custody battles and children who are torn apart in the middle. Marriage and a family that stays together is the surest predictor of child health as they grow up, other arrangment thanks to the corporate world that has deliberately dismantled the family have proven to be a disaster and quite inhumane. Apologists and peons of the Corporate West will speak through their A$$ just to worship the shit created by their masters but those that know, and I have done a lot of work on family and marriage sociology in the West, know that family and marriage life in the West is a disaster and ones to suffer MOST are the women and children....

Re: # 80 hurricane

hhahahaha....I meant to say "party pooper" not a "part pooper" ...which misconstrues what I meant to say to something that implies that I am a partial defecator :D

I guess my Godliness gets shaken by your godlessness every time I interact with you, hence the typos ;)

Re: # 73 dr.sohail.

This talk of starting a "hub" makes me nervous.

Also, I believe in the almighty a bit too much, I may be a part pooper were I to attend your next "all hail the atheist God" meeting.

But I do like the fact that you and your colleagues promote peace and love...with or without God, it is still necessary and commendable.

Re: # 77
dear essensaur...i fully agree with you. you have wonderful ideas and have raised the level of discussion. thanks...sohail

Re: # 77

essensaur,

... excellent post! ......... the institution of formal marriage is highly overrated and had everything to do with the economic dependence of women and very little to do with relationships, happiness, family, children and all that other crap that we have been brought up to believe ......... with the emancipation of women, it will find its true place in society - in the gutter, where it belongs with religion and the horse drawn carriage (and used condoms, if i may be so bold).........

...... based on my circle of friends and family, i can safely say that half the people are extremely unhappy in their marriages ...... they stay in those relationships because of societal pressures or because they are simply butt ugly and couldn't find another partner if their life depended on it .... and i am sick and tired of listening to them whine!

Re #76

Khan Sahib, I am not qualified like Dr Sohail, but as someone who has raised a family and lived in the West for a long time, I hope you will not mind my sharing my personal observations and opinions. I have no claims as to the scientific validity of what I am about to say, and will be very willing to change my opinion where appropriate.

When you say ""interaction between young boys and girls does not help marriage institutions in the west", I suppose your criterion is the duration of wedlock in the liberal west being shorter when compared to the marriage spans in the subcontinent. It may be a relatively recent phenomenon in the west. Let us assume it is indeed so.

From a western liberal perspective, the success of a marriage is to be measured more in terms of the happiness it brings to the two primary partners and to their offspring, and not in terms of how many years the marriage lasted. The happiness of the offspring often takes second level of importance compared to the spousal happiness. Such a concept would be in stark contrast with what our traditional society has always preached.
• "Marriage means compromise". No emphasis on happiness here ...
• "Weddings bring families together not just a man and woman". Not a bad idea –but it somehow translates in to the idea that the couple - read the wife - must make sacrifices in the larger interest of the two families, and by implication, their honor, their feelings, their concerns, etc. etc. which are nebulous and context dependent ...

I believe these days the couple’s happiness is a better criterion to measure success of the marriage than how long it lasted.
• It focuses on gender equality during these times when the families are getting smaller and smaller with the couple being the only adults in the household
• Gender equality is essential these days in the marriage because two-income families are better off in handling economic pressures
• Unless both spouses are happy, the children will not grow in a harmonious and positive environment

But if the West puts so much emphasis on gender equality and mutual happiness of the spouses, why doesn’t the marriage last long? Why do the couples separate so often??

Please take my thoughts with a largish pinch of salt. I have lived in Western Europe and in North America for some 35 years, but my exposure may not be representative at all.

• Some of the married couples I met were previously married and divorced and maintained cordial relationship with the ex-spouses and their families, exchanging not just the annual Christmas gifts, but also getting together with children, and having fun. “Honey, your children and my children are beating-up our children” was a popular caricature of this brave new society.
• The unmarried couples I came across also thought in terms of commitment to each other, but did not seem to consider wedlock as being necessary to become acceptable socially. In other words, it was the concept of “Miya – Bibi raazi tau kya karega Kaazi” abstracted to a level where society’s approval became irrelevant if the couple was committed to each other. Such cohabitation would be unthinkable in our traditional society, although metropolitan India and Pakistan are probably moving in that direction.
• That “Marriage is after all a piece of paper” was an accepted philosophical statement amidst some young, unmarried couples. My impression was that they did not mean it so much to express a disdain for the institution of marriage, but to suggest that there is something more important than the ritual of getting married.
• Amidst the dating young men and women, the practice of sex was probably common, although it was not considered a big deal. Sex between consenting adults was not illegal, and was looked at as the culmination of a happy relationship - not as something to be reserved with religious sincerity for an eventual would-be spouse.
• The concept of virginity was considered old fashioned, and in the American context pre-marital or post-marital escapades would probably be considered immune from censure since the constitution guarantees individuals freedom to pursue happiness.

Making sense of all that I was coming across has been an ongoing process for me.

In my cynically critical moments, I have attributed the presumed phenomenon of lack of marital longevity in the West sometimes to a youthful tendency to confuse happiness and pleasure, and sometimes to immaturity and need for instant gratification.

I have also wondered about the influence of Christian religious thought on the mind, where you believe you have only one lifetime to live, and yet you are “modern” enough not to believe in the Garden of Eden and the concept of heaven where you will be eternally happy.

Even Ghalib had those doubts – “YuN tau hameN bhi maloom hai Jannat ki haqueeqat lekin, Dil-ke behlane ke liye Ghalib, khayaal achchha hai”!

A logical extension of that thought process is to follow your instincts, and do what your heart, mind or hormones tell you to do. Which wins when, probably depends on age and circumstance. 

It will be great if you and others give your thoughts.

-- Essensaur

#70

This is not the answer to my question. Once again my question is why "interaction between young boys and girls does not help marriage institutions in the west?". Why people in the west can not find right spouse after learning about opposite sex since an early age?

Re: # 34 Thanks UNB for telling what i wanted to write. I do not see good by condition Koritoconus and all mistakes are inadverdent. Also due no better focusing adjucent words are many times interchanged like A may be replaced by s or N by M.
Incidently I was thinking about two bundishes little thing struck me in hindustani Bandishes " Piya" word is used in unisex way.
Again thanks for correcting.

Re: #70,

There is also the Western concept of companionate (aka 'love marriage') vs. the Eastern concept of non-companionate marriages. In, e.g., S. Asia the idea of a wife was not of a 'partner in life' but someone to do the housework and bear children. Societies that wall of women, e.g., the Zenana, invariably have noncompanionate marriages and much lower status of women. Of course, in Europe, the artistocracy married off their daughters for political/dynastic reasons and those marriages usually worked as well as many Eastern ones.

Re: # 69
dear hurricane...these days i am writing for
clarington durham region humanists
www.cdrh.humanists.ca
that is where i live in canada
and we are creating a Humanist Hub
our next seminar on feb 8th would be on Charles Darwin to celebrate his birthday. maybe you can visit that site and attend our friendly seminar
i agree with you that divorce is far better than honour killing
have you read what bertrand russell said about marriage
...chains of marriage are so heavy it takes two to carry them sometimes three
sincerely
sohail

# 67

culture = collective mind
mind = individual mind

individual mind is EMBEDDED within the collective mind
mind # static , it is dynamic-living thing

mind can be found in ONLY TWO states
either it is evolving-growing or
it is devolving-shrinking !

both collective mind & individual mind are struggling to influence-shape each other

muslim culture is more overpowering than individual muslim mind. It shapes-manipulates & uses individual muslim mind for its OWN ENDS (mostly political in nature)
the collective muslim mind does not tolerate being questioned-challenged by individual muslim minds.
It takes "practical steps" to ELIMINATE such minds.

In western societies, individualism rules.
individual minds are more strong than the collective mind (too weak to shape-influence individual minds)
individual minds are free to question the wisdom of the collective mind-cultures.

Re: # 70 nb,

I agree with that.

I would also like to point out to Akhanusa that divorce rates are not as bad as honor killing rates.

Now you could argue that domestic homicide cases per Capita are equal to the honor killing / domestic violence in Pakistan, etc (I don't know the numbers and am not asserting anything) , then you would be comparing oranges with oranges.

Divorce rates. pfffftttt....

Akhanusa, I think divorce rates are higher in the west primarily because women have more economic and social freedom and do not have to put up with bad marriages, which most eastern women accept because they have no other option. According to the statistics, women are more often the ones asking for a marriage to be ended. I once read, "only Americans expect to be happy"; and there is some truth in that.The economic and scientific progress that western countries have seen has not occurred in a vacuum; it is because the situation in their society has been conducive to this. If their values were to change into Pakistan's or even India's, they wouldn't be finding cures for cancer or new planets either.

Dear dr. sohail,

do humanists make good friends? Is the "Family of the hearts" a cult?

As you know, I pay great attention to pictures. The pictures on the "family of the hearts" look a bit shady...why are these people grinning?

Is this like Rosemary's baby? You know? A gang of people facilitating the birth of anti christ?

My dear Dr. Sohail sahib what a perceptive gentle soul you are trying to teach in the most rational and kind way the incorrigible Muslim male chauvinist pigs from the pig pens of India and Pakistan something unteachable -- to go easy on their wives and daughter -- not strangle them for not wearing hijab -- and not shoot them for wanting to lead against a cruel male dictatorship

A dictatorship that blames the women victims for their rape and and murder -- ("they asked for it - Mukhtaran and Shazia for visa to Canada, Benazir for pmship") -- shows no remorse for what happened to the one and the only Muslim woman who dared to defy the male chauvinist swines.

you are a great social psychiatrist -- very learned and very articulate -- more power to you.

Dr Sohail,

Is religion to blame for this mindset or is it just a case of tribal customs refusing to evolve?

"I could not convince them that it was quite natural and healthy for young boys and girls to socialize with each other and date so that they could
get to know each other and make wise choices about their life partners."


Not sure if interaction between young boys and girls can be as healthy as author thinks. If this is so then why there is such
a high divorce rate in the west?

Re: # 64
dear khurram...thank you for your comments and your genuine question. in human psychology there are two schools of thought.
one school focuses on large numbers of people or patients... hundreds even thousands and collects statistics and reports the results. for example suicide rate in canada is average 10 per 100,000 population. newfoundland has 4 per 100,000 lowest in the world. those studies are epidemeological studies and reflect certain trends like polls for american elections before the real elections.

the second school that Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung and many other psychologists belong they pick one case or a few cases and analyze their behaviours, thought patterns and conflicts and give their analysis or impressions. they believe if you undrstand one case thoroughly...one schizophrenic, one depressed, one paranoid person, others are variations of that. it is a philosophical and psychological approach that offers theories. these theories are part of philosophy not hard core science like biology and physics. they are pragmatic and helps therapists to help understand the dynamics and reduce the emotional suffering. it also helps to resolve conflicts and improve the quality of life.
exp freud knew a depressed woman who was in an abusive marriage. after divorce she killed herself. other psychologists said she committed suicide, he said she comitted homicide. when asked to explain he said she hated her husband so much that even after divorce she found herself thinking about him all the times. she realized that becuase she lived with him for so many years she had psychologically internalized him and the only way to get rid of him was to kill him inside her and the only way she could do that was to kill herself.

now this is a theory you can agree or disagree. to agree you have to believe in unconscious mind and many other defence mechanisms.

i belong to the second group. based on my personal and professional experiences i develop some insights that help me in helping others and i share my insights and impressions with others in my books and essays. my colleagues and patients and friends find my ideas very helpful in their lives. i never insist that my theories are correct or are the last word. they are my ideas and i share so that they open up a genuine dialogue about human psychology and relationships. human psychology is still a developing field as it is closer to philosophy than biology and we are learning more with passage of time.
unfortunately many research workers in psychology use such an academic language that one phd can only communicate with another phd, one professor with another professor. i try to share my ideas in lay man's terms so that more and more people can understand them and can use them in their lives.
i believe in public education about mental health that is why i made documentaries about depression and domestic violence etc.
thanks once again.
from a humable student fascinated by the mysteries of the human mind, personality and psychology. sohail

drsohail,

I know you don't interact with masadi because of his abrasive style. But there is one issue that he has brought up several times that I think deserves an answer.
You have made it clear in your articles that your views are often derived from one-on-one interactions with your friends, acquaintances and patients. You then extrapolate from these individual interactions to make statements about larger sets of people.
How valid is this methodology? Does it have limitations? How does it compare to the methods of sociologists?
Thanks

Re: # 62 dr.sohail

I wouldn't fall for that ploy.

A couple of elderly ladies became serial killers here in So-Cal, pulling the same trick on homeless people.

Take out a life insurance on the bum, and then kill him.

Let's just say, I ain't no bum, and I am on to this trick.

Re: # 61
dear hurricane ,,,if i had a magazine i will make you the editor...but ask you to take life insurance before starting the job..sohail

Re: # 60 dr. Sohail,

I just saw my previous post and am really saddened by my own display of paindu-ness and illiteracy. "worthwhile and timely" and "right" (not "write") are the corrections.

As you can guess, with such questionable writing skills, no magazine or paper would ever hire me.

Re: # 58
dear hurricane..you were missing them so they came to chowk to challenge you...smiles...which newspaper or magazine do you write for? sincerely sohail

Re: # 58
dear hurricane..you were missing them so they came to chowk to challenge you...smiles...which newspaper or magazine do you write for? sincerely sohail

dear dr. sohail,

I live in Southern California and enjoy nice weather throughout the year.

Been to Toronto many many times. People seemed pretty good. City sucks though.

Good to hear that your seminars include the religious folks, for they are the key to both damnation and salvation :D

In #54 read "when we talk about aggregate national data we are talking of data much superior to your biased "personal client" data which is always guided by your preconcieved notions of people from our country" as

"when we talk about aggregate national data we are talking of data much superior to your biased "personal client" data which is always guided by your preconcieved notions of people from our country, and is not scientific, i.e. a random sample in which everyone in the population being studied have an equal chance of being selected.

....and yes, Alhamdullilah Quran has already explained the 'psychology' of Gender. The writer is recommending us a solution (Western values) which itself is a problem, so look at the solution (Quranic moral values) and not the problem (Western values)

Assalamo'alaikum. I don't think this writer's enormously misguided views of a Muslim society would really sell, though we don't have any 'true' Muslim society even in the so-called Muslim 'states' but atleast we have hung on to our values by far, may Allah guide us all and enlighten our hearts so that we may recognize such develish attempts on our Emaan, Amin.

Please kindly download and view, if you can, Dr. Maulana Imran N. Hosein's video lecture on "Marriage and the Concept of Gender in Islam" located at : http://www.imranhosein.org

Another quite useless, banal, and tape-recorderesque reproduction of Western stereotypes regarding Eastern and particularly Islamic women. That this ____ would repeat that merely reinforces for us his agenda of being the spokesperson/peon of the Western elite. For example consider what he writes:

(Quote)It is sad to see how many Eastern women have been enduring such injustice and abuse. When they were living in the East they had limited choices but living in the West they are becoming aware of their rights and are challenging their husbands (end quote)

In the "East" because of family they have greater choices compared to the West where if they don't whore themselves to their husband (who in atleast 5 cases out of 10 is undependible), they have to whore themselves to the marketplace of the corporations that put them through all kinds of sexual harassment and glass ceilings and literally require them to use their sexuality if they are to advance. Tell us about the nearly one million women raped annually in the US, with rape having the lowest convinction rate of any crime, of about the 5 million beaten blue and black by their husbands out of which several thousands die, of the largest group of persistently poor in the US being women and children, with lack of marriage being the surest indicator of that, and then we can talk about "more choices" in the West- when we talk about aggregate national data we are talking of data much superior to your biased "personal client" data which is always guided by your preconcieved notions of people from our country. We do not need such moronic articles on this site.

Re: # 52
dear hurricane...since you do not know me you are not aware that in toronto our seminars has religious as well as secular speakers...the believers as well as the non-believers and then the papers are presented on both sites...our last seminar
fundamentalism and violence
was promoted on atheist, humanist as well as islamic sites...where do you live?
sincerely
sohail

Re: # 39 dr.sohail

Dear Dr. Sohail, please consider what I said carefully.

Your article is worthwhile but timely.
HOWEVER, you are not talking to the write people.

PERHAPS you cannot talk to the right people, for you are considered a secularist and westernized.

This means that the people who are all into honor killing etc...will not change their minds for they will not listen to you, as you are 1) not of the same religion and 2) not of the same culture (due to perceptions of secularism and westernization).

Therefore, Dr. Sohail, you have to bite the bullet and mingle with the mullahs. Get them on board, get them to say these things...and you may make a huge difference yet.

Otherwise, you are just creating a bigger divide :(

Re: # 50 Posted by hamidm2 on January 10, 2008 9:06:09 am

[Re: # 48

mohar,

..... i was talking about 'real' religions, not monkey stuff :)]

What is this monkey stuff? Are there people who follow monkeys around?

Re: # 48

mohar,

..... i was talking about 'real' religions, not monkey stuff :)

Re: # 35
I don't tnink you bow your head in submission (don't equate that with slavery!) to God. I'll assume you're a spiritual honey-bee that collects its nectar from various contradictory philosophical flowers, never focusing on the Unity.

May I suggest Dr. Muhammad Asad's THE MESSAGE OF THE QUR'AN. It will benifit you greatly if you were merely born as a Muslim, and even otherwise, in case you wish to understand who gave you life (not mum and dad silly!).

Until we meet again.

Peace (brother!?!?)

Re: # 37
[...all religions are misogynistic ...]

Not true... most "eastern" faiths are not misogynistic... In hinduism - female "shakti" is considered the ultimate power - goddess worship as much common as the god worship... Buddhism is pretty neutral on gender...

That's in theory... in practice, it's a different matter - considering all the bride-burning that happens in different places...

Re: # 28 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 9, 2008 4:52:31 pm

You are so right. You spoke the truth, man. Woman always discriminate men.

Re: # 43
dear muntajibkhan...i fully agree with you that long term solution is education. but we also need laws in every state that would make violence and abuse illegal and abusive people have to be encouraged to get professional help. in the long run we need to change violent consciousness of human beings into peace consciousness. we need to learn that we can resolve human conflicts by dialogue not violence and we need more teachers and parents to become positive role models for the next generation....thank you for your thoughtful comments. sincerely sohail

Re: # 37
dear hamidm2...being a therapist i am fortunate to see people everyday who change their personalities and philosophies and lifestyles...so i remain optimistic as a psychotherapist as well as a humanist...evolution is a slow process...and i am a patient man...smiles... sohail

Re: # 36
dear uba...i agree with you that healthy systems are open and progressive and flow like a river while closed systems stagnate and become ponds full of intellectual algae...sincerely sohail

Mr.Khalid Sohail
You have touched a raw nerve of those Muslim families who moved to Western countries in search of greener pastures. Indeed, you have very subtly addressed the dilemma of Muslims parents, who are highly anxious and wary that their daughters, while in the prime of their youth might adopt the Western values. It is still shameful that honor killings haunt the Muslim societies in many countries. It is undeniable that honor killings exist, and wherever they happen, it is imperative that steps that aim to educate people regarding sexuality must be taken. Mr.Khalid, you are a psychotherapist, perhaps of the Jungian branch. I agree with much of what you are saying in this article, but the important thing is how to take this message across the rural countryside of many Muslim countries, afflicted abjectly with poverty, deprivation and old tribal customs and values. Fighting depravity and values alien to those adopted by Muslims can only achieved by education, and not by any violent attempts. Killing someone in the name of saving one self’s perceived honor is a despicable act, and deserves condemnation as do other homicidal acts. No one can dictate virtuosity to any fellow being. If that had been possible, vices wouldn't have ever existed on this planet. Any way, a good job and an initiative in the right direction.

Mr.Khalid Sohail
You have touched a raw nerve of those Muslim families who moved to Western countries in search of greener pastures. Indeed, you have very subtly addressed the dilemma of Muslims parents, who are highly anxious and wary that their daughters, while in the prime of their youth might adopt the Western values. It is still shameful that honor killings haunt the Muslim societies in many countries. It is undeniable that honor killings exist, and wherever they happen, it is imperative that steps that aim to educate people regarding sexuality must be taken. Mr.Khalid, you are a psychotherapist, perhaps of the Jungian branch. I agree with much of what you are saying in this article, but the important thing is how to take this message across the rural countryside of many Muslim countries, afflicted abjectly with poverty, deprivation and old tribal customs and values. Fighting depravity and values alien to those adopted by Muslims can only achieved by education, and not by any violent attempts. Killing someone in the name of saving one self’s perceived honor is a despicable act, and deserves condemnation as do other homicidal acts. No one can dictate virtuosity to any fellow being. If that had been possible, vices wouldn't have ever existed on this planet. Any way, a good job and an initiative in the right direction.

Re: # 25
dear essensaur...thanks for your detailed sharing. why do you think urdu poetry uses a male beloved pronoun even when the beloved is female? it sounds like gay poetry...sincerely sohail

Re: # 24
dear tahmed...does love have to be always connected with reproduction. i know so many men and women who do not want to become parents. what do you think of such people..? sincerely sohail

Re: # 21
dear stormy hurricane toofani thinking storm...i am glad you did not find my article boring. as far as religious and secular people are concerned...as a psychotherapist i believe nobody is born a scientist or a fanatic or a revolutionary...families, communities and cultures shape people's personalities. people change and evolve and grow when there is a dialogue and i try to get involved in a genuine dialogue through my writings and documentaries and seminars...you will be surprised how many people change over the years. i am an optimist.are you a skeptic? peacefully sohail

Re: # 23
dear malik jahanzeb...welcome back. i agree with you that the traditional institution of marriage promotes inequality of genders that is supported by many families and communities. a loving relationship is possible when both parties feel equal and that happens when both partners are financially and emotionally independent. thanks for your thoughtful comments...sincerely sohail

dr sohail sahib,

......... all religions are misogynistic and islam is perhaps the worst, because, unlike others, muslims actually believe in it ......... so it is not surprising that the more religious you are the worst you treat 'your' women ..... it is silly to accept people who see nothing wrong in keeping a stable of four wives and as many concubines as their right hand can possess, to behave like gentlemen ....... the root cause, dear doctor, is the damned faith and i don't think you have a cure for that ........ but keep on trying ......

#35

philosophy = science + religion

religion deals with the "inner world" of man
science deals with the "outer world" of man

imagine 2 concentric circles , smaller circle & its content representing religion

while the space between the larger & smaller circle representing "science"

both science & religion are incomplete with out the other.
synthesis of both is what "philosophy" muut aim at.

in other words, both science & religion needs a culture of "philosophy" for their continual growth-evolution.

muslim culture(dominated by their unique notion of political islam) have a very strong anti-philosophical temper . So the concept of "religion" has remained "locked" since the medieaval times.