Pakistan's Flawed and Feudal Princess

Re: # 313
This is fake....

I found this picture of Benazir when she was in Oxford floating on the internet. I have shown this pic. to my professional photographer friend, he said that the picture is 99.9% genuine and it also seems to be real in my opinion. You people wanna give your feedback.

http://www.despardes.com/articles/sep06/20060908-bb-hameed.htm

"The challenge for the people is not to let Mohtarma’s supreme sacrifice go in vain. She died for the people and for their inalienable right to be the masters of their own destiny. Her mission must be accomplished. Let us focus on reverting to a genuine democratic order.

Democracy will be the best revenge for her tragic death."(Shamshad Ahmad - DAWN)

Indeed!

Ras writes "She was a lot more than your view of her."

Slogans wont do, care to elaborate. She was no institution shatterer like her father, for her power and deal making were of greater importance, when she decided not to play she was very easily eliminated because she didn't understand that you never put your trust in the shaitan and its minions....

RE: 307

She was a lot more than your view of her.

Just like her father she was betrayed.

Re: # 305 Masadi what you have written is correct more than half words population has less than 1 dollar/ day.
I am told usa govt buys food from farmers and destroys and bury in dumps so there is scarity of food world wide and then they can charge more for food. I always wonder what is point in growing so much food and paying farmers and then destroying huge chuck so food goes costly and poor suffer. USA is NOT friend of Pakistan which BB did not appreciate and when there is scarity of wheat and aata etc in Karachi , usa can get real good reputation if they give wheat which they are destroying. Some times usa govt actions are strange to understand , they gave over 1 billion dollrs to army instead if they donatede say 200 million dollars worth of whaet mr. Bush can get good wishes but they will not do but burn wheat to warm water. USA is strange country.

Re: # 306 Can Muslim or muslima can parctice Yoga which is "purely religious Indian stuff". Western up bringing destroy elemental religious taching and basics and leads to sublime liberal thinking and Shaitan controlling mind. GOI is smart has started pushing Gandhi( his movie), yoga, mediation and non veg food with catchy propaganda- what is steak it is dead killed animals and animals are friends and friends do not eat friends, Hare krishna movement.It was shocking to read two times of Prime Minister Pakistan followed induian cult like yoga and copy muscle action of animals like cat. dogs, snake and what not.Things are changing too much for old person like me.

Ras mian enough with the BB worship, she was coming through for the people at the very end that is about all, through the rest of her political career she became part of undoing the great work of her father. In fact she was not smart enough not to put her trust in the Shaitan that got rid of her in the end nor the mini shaitan she married...

To give William's poor article a sendoff on CHOWK...

From The News International (Jang Group) today.


A ruler of hearts

Saturday, January 19, 2008
Dr Javaid Laghari

My friend, my sister, my mentor, my leader, I was fortunate to be associated with her, leading a university named after her father, of which she was the chancellor. Having the privilege of travelling with her around the world, I wish to share her unique leadership qualities.

What is the difference between a politician and a leader? A politician asks for sacrifices, a leader gives one. She gave the ultimate sacrifice for her nation. One does not need power to be a leader. A leader needs followers, and she had plenty of them, even when out of power. How many prime ministers, presidents and generals can claim that? Power does not make leaders. History and followers do.

Determined to succeed and deliver the agenda of moderation and reform, she had the drive to put Pakistan onto the right track. Far bolder than any male leader, she told the Afghan president hours before her tragic assassination on December 27 that "life and death is in the hands of Allah, and that is why I have the courage to stare in the eyes of death without any fear."

Her star power and striking beauty made her more charismatic than Princess Diana and John Kennedy combined. Her sophistication and diplomacy established a large network of friends and admirers around the world. At the World Political Forum in Italy in 2003, when she walked into the conference hall, almost forty world leaders stood up and applauded her. She would stop a conversation or an activity just by walking into a room. She lectured regularly at universities globally where she would dazzle a large audience.

Intelligent, wise, well-educated and well-read, her favourite shopping at airports were bestsellers, autobiographies, history and leadership books. Within minutes she would devour every newspaper on a flight. Her photogenic memory would remember every meeting and everyone by name. She was a genius and a decision maker. While others would fumble for weeks strategizing party policies, she would analyze the situation within seconds and come up with a creative solution and new directives. When reflecting over disagreements, time would tell she was always right. Her other interests in life included feng shui, astrology, health and nutrition. A talking computer and walking encyclopaedia, she had multi-tasking abilities. Very well-organized, disciplined, and punctual, she could bring any management guru to shame. She spent countless hours on the PC and the blackberry. Working with her on the election manifesto, each document was ripped apart with ink. The final manifesto is a full credit to her creative abilities, spelling out the five Es: employment, education, energy, environment and equality.

Empathetic, compassionate, generous and kind, she supported hundreds of desperate individuals and families around the country, people unknown or heard of, except through an email received. Once she received an email from a critical patient with six unmarried daughters, requesting a major hospital expense. With tears in her eyes, she opened her purse and asked to see the money reached its destination. I have witnessed tears in her eyes when talking of the assassination of her father and two brothers, and of the plight of the poor.

Hospitable and caring, she would remember her friends, relatives and admirers wherever she was and send them gifts regularly. I recall once in Germany, our attendant driver was stunned to receive the same gift from her which she had asked him to help choose for someone else.

A strong believer of reconciliation, she would forgive and forget. Many have accused her wrongly of adopting this policy of forgiving her father's killers, and recently of reconciling with the existing setup, but for democracy she believed in healing hearts and forging unity. She was not vengeful. One can now see this reflection in Bilawal when in his first public address to the media after his mother's assassination he stated that "democracy is the best revenge".

When at home, she would exclusively dedicate her time to her children--discussing their interests in life as well as relating her own experiences. She would spend weekends with her family as well and take care of her ailing mother. Spiritual and pious, she offered prayers, did walks, practised yoga, went shopping and had a craving for chocolate and ice cream.

She was a jewel in the crown, a royalty who ruled hearts. This country will never be the same without her, at least for this generation. Bibi is gone but her legacy will continue.



The writer is vice-president of SZABIST and a PPP senator. Email: jlaghari@gmail.com.

chalta writes "Human life spans, wealth, health have all gotten better since wwII"

BS we have argued this before, neither the wealth in the possession of the vast majority nor life expectancy nor health have increased for the very vast majority, more people are dying today unnecessarily than ever before in the history of the world, wealth disparity is at an all time high with a tiny elite possessing more wealth than whole continent full of people. Half the world fully 50% lives on less than $2 a day, with a large percent of them on less than $1 a day. What fools BS world of US propaganda are you living in?

tahmed writes " You on the other hand make up convenient stories and accusations as you come to chowk to spread your misery by abusing, lying, accusing anyone who challenges your absurd attempts at demonizing the US."

Nonsense, whenever I accuse this demon of anything I back it up with facts. Because of this shaitan we have to live in a world full of misery where the few rule. Regarding whose payroll you're on, you sure as hell act as in your groveling as if you were on their payroll, you defend the bastards with your life and honor. Regarding your retirement, it is no secret here. You have thus far not been able to refute anything I have said because what I say are facts open for all to see, for example take your absurd contention that the US is an "open society" when it is the most higly rule rigged and regulated society where the little guy is kept in check and control through a thousand ways while its elite are free to do what they want the world over in their mad rampage...

#300 masadi: "I present facts to back up all my assertions, facts that you cannot handle."

No you dont. Your posts below are a pack of lies as is usual for you. You made the false accusation that I was on the US payroll (with the obvious implication that I the reason I challenge your attempts at demonizing the US is because I get paid to spend my time doing that), and when challenged quickly changed your story to say I used to be on the US payroll before I retired!! How do you know I am retired? How do you know I was "on the US payroll"? OF course you pulled these out of thin air.

I try to base what I write on what I know and no more. You on the other hand make up convenient stories and accusations as you come to chowk to spread your misery by abusing, lying, accusing anyone who challenges your absurd attempts at demonizing the US.

#299 Posted by masadi on January 16, 2008 12:17:47 pm


that was for building and library purposes


and with your own copy of C. Wright Mills and karl marx, you never have to step into the library anyway...

Masadi, you are wrong on every count...the only people decrying the us led global growth are islamists and closet communists. You are the love child of the two....and frankly an exceptionally poor quality product at that.

Human life spans, wealth, health have all gotten better since wwII. The idiotic socialistic policies of the soviets and indians and chinese made their citizens poor.hungry, sick and wanting to be more like America. It is the model that has proven it works. That is why BRICs are booming while you are spooning the carcass of a dead nobody like Cw mills.

tahmed " that says nothing about the US."

It does say a lot about the US, the personification of all that is evil in humanity, and all that is barbarous and murderous on a global level...

tahmed writes "while you can parrot mullah terrorists in calling the US a shaitan - that says nothing about the US."

I present facts to back up all my assertions, facts that you cannot handle. Further I have never received a single dime from the shaitan, you have been before your retirement...I do not work for any institution currently that receives funding from US aid, even when I did I was being paid out of student fees and not US aid period, that was for building and library purposes only and not for paying faculty.

chalta don't be jealous of my much superior intellect to your drivel

Poor Masadi can't come to the terms with his eviction from the US. now just froths at the mouth while watching billions of people leveraging the benefits of open markets, globalization, flow of capital improve their lives. A guy like Masadi could only find a home in pakistan. If he ever set foot in India or china, he would be tarred and feathered and sent home on a donkey..that would be the first time an ass would be riding a donkey! :-)

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i dont quite see how william dalrymple is qualified to write about pakistan, pakistani politics, or even the PPP and benazir bhutto for that matter. how long did william spend in pakistan to be able to write about Pakistan's "flawed" princess? how many Pakistanis did he meet and interview to be able to do it other than meeting members of a certain class with whom he socializes with in London? Did Mr. Dalrymple leave Karachi, Lahore, and Islamabad and go to the real Pakistan to see what kind of emotion and support the Bhutto name invokes? While he is a brilliant historian and writer, Mr. Dalrymple's rant comes across as a writer who is carving out a niche as a "South Asian" specialist which he clearly is not. this is the 21st century, Mr. Dalrymple not Bahadur Shah Zafar's 17th century. You can fool some people sometimes but you cant fool all the people all the time to quote Bob Marley.

masadi #293: "others however, on the payroll of this shaitan, like tahmed"

First, I am not on US payroll. You are!! By your own admission you work for an institution funded partly by US-AID. I brought this to your attention first time, and you demonstrated your usual hypocrisy by saying where your payroll comes from is none of your concern.

Second, while you can parrot mullah terrorists in calling the US a shaitan - that says nothing about the US.

So - keep lying, and keep abusing. That is all you can do.

HP writes "Haathi kay daant khanay kay aur Dikhana kay aur."

Well stated. The world fortunately (as revealed by numerous polls) has come to understand the haathi and is not moved by its "democracy talk". It has begun to see the US elite as the personification of the ugly, dog ugly or butt ugly evil that it personifies. Even its own people have come to recognize its shenanigans. There are others however, on the payroll of this shaitan, like tahmed who know what the truth is but deliberately try to pervert it in order to harm the people, even the people of his own country, and then talks and looks all concerned about them even as he is stabbing them in the back. That is why I totally detest and hate his kind of people. You should give him the hell he deserves because you know where he is coming from rather than the politeness that does not befit his kind...

"LAHORE: Nawaz Sharif and Fazlur Rehman are among the prime targets of terrorists ahead of the February 18 elections, caretaker federal Interior minister Lt Gen (r) Hamid Nawaz Khan told Dawn News television channel on Tuesday.

Khan said Ejazul Haq, Aftab Ahmad Khan Sherpao and Amir Muqam could also be hit.

He declined to name the suspects saying it might jeopardise efforts for their arrest." (daily times monitor)

I won't decline to name them -- they are the two Chaudry brothers. HOW COME you don't see their names (NEVER EVER) in the the terrorist'S threat lists -- even that wretch SOZ EjazulHuque is there -- but the two illegitimate sons of Musharraf are either so worthless they never make the list of anything -- or they ARE the Terrorists.

#289 tahmed writes "masadi: i gave you a chance to provide a reasoned response to the two questions i raised, rather than your usual abuse and accusations. And you were unable to do that"

More lies from this peon of the West. What HP has written in #282, I had written in different words more or less in my posts responding to your so-called questions. Yet you accept HPs answer and then try your dishonesty at perverting it by blaming the "general" and the not the military without which no general can pull a coup, a military that receives blessings and praise for the coups from the US. Then you compare Bush and Gore knowing full well that the broad features of US foreign policy and its rampant militarism during clinton was more or less the same as that during Bush. Clinton bombed Iraq for no reason long before Bush decided to invade it and were the Gore group to pull of the elections, they would have done the same given elite agenda at the time. US policies have been detrimental to the globe post WW2, ask the people of Vietnam, of Afghanistan, of Pakistan, of the many countries of Latin America and even the Soviet Union that has gone now, ask Iraq and Iran, ask the Palestinians. You look at US occupied Japan and the liar that you are you want to present that as justification for US barbarism around the globe just as you were doing in your cheerleading for the Iraq war in 2003. You, tahmed are a disgrace to humanity. Who the hell gave the US permission to go lording it over the rest of the world at the force of arms? Tell me is it the democratic spirit or rampant militarism a larger scale version of the Pakistan military gone amok on a global level...

In my opinion, Zardari had to do something with Benazir's killing.

Who was the beneficiary of Benazir's life insurance?
Who got to keeo over $1.5Bn looted by this couple?
Who got the chairmenship of PPP by deivering the fabricated WILL?

The people around Benazir's were hand picked by her, herself, some of them were close buddies of Zardari, whom he spent time when he was in jail.

Why Benazir had to come out of the Sunroof, its like sitting on a Duck, and asking shooter to shoot. Its like target finding the bullet itself, this is ridiculous on Benazirs part and she paid the price for that.

Again, Why Zardari does not want Scotland Yard to investigate, something is Fishy !!! Zardari should be the # 1 suspect of assassination, as all the evidence is pointing towards Zardari.

Now the leadership of PPP has been snatched by Zardaris from Bhuttos, as Zardari has successfully removed Murtaza Bhutto first during the tenure of Benazir and now killing Benazir to put the last nail in the coffin.

masadi: i gave you a chance to provide a reasoned response to the two questions i raised, rather than your usual abuse and accusations. And you were unable to do that. Thus proving that you use abuse and lies and false accusations to hide the emptiness behind your intellectual pretensions.

HP #282

On 1, I agree basically with your reading of the history of Pakistan-US relations. Two points for your attention thought. You need to pin responsibility for Pakistan's successive coups where it belongs first and foremost - the general concerned who came to power. That is, it is not the US that commits coups, it is not even the Pakistan army at large - it is the top general who actually committed the coup d'etat's starting with Ayub, who have committed the ultimate crime. Unless we start pinning responsibility where it belongs, and bringing the general to face justice rather than letting him off the hook once he is out of power, this vicious cycle of military coups will continue. Because the next general will know that worst case he will rule Pakistan for 5-10 years, become rich and famous, and then live out his remaining days playing golf (as Musharraf is now presenting as his option). The other option is to retire like generals in normal countries like India or the US and live out their lives like ordinary citizens. Where is the incentive for the next ambitious general to not abuse his powers if we are to talk generalities about "US global interests" and "Pakistan's needs" and so forth??


On 2., the term "US global interests" can mean very different things depending on the context, and is often used in Pakistan in a negative sense. However, an objective look at history will show that on balance US global interests have had a very positive influence on humanity at large - whether it is the end of kingships in the 19th century europe, or the successful struggles against fascism in World War II or against communism during the cold war, or today - against mullahism. If the US has taken a wrong stand - as in case of the environment under Bush, its free and highly educated society has also turned out world leaders like Gore to speak on behalf of the cause that benefits all humanity. It is this self-correcting mechanism that makes the US model of an open society that rests on broad principles the most successful in the world the past two centuries.

Re: # 285

This is exactly what I have been saying ..... the terror tap is controlled by the mullahs, ISI and the military...... the double game is called taquiya..... remember what Mush talked about the Battle of Badr in refernce to his U turn - he was refering to the temporary roll back till the jehadis are empowered....... now his Jehadis are empowered............they are going to use democracy to win the Pakistan........
Pakistan first ...... then the PAki nukes...... then the rest of the world!!!
ISlam would dominate the world with PAki nukes and terror!!

"It was difficult to image any of her neighbouring heads of state- even India’s earnest Sikh economist, Manmohan Singh, talking like this."
What the heck is a Sikh economist? How is one different from other economists?

where is the apologists for benazir, nasah?

like i said..i used to think the only paki who doesn't support islamic terrorism is a dead paki...now i'm not even sure about the dead paki...


January 15, 2008
Militants Escape Control of Pakistan, Officials Say
By CARLOTTA GALL and DAVID ROHDE

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Pakistan’s premier military intelligence agency has lost control of some of the networks of Pakistani militants it has nurtured since the 1980s, and is now suffering the violent blowback of that policy, two former senior intelligence officials and other officials close to the agency say.

As the military has moved against them, the militants have turned on their former handlers, the officials said. Joining with other extremist groups, they have battled Pakistani security forces and helped militants carry out a record number of suicide attacks last year, including some aimed directly at army and intelligence units as well as prominent political figures, possibly even Benazir Bhutto.

The growing strength of the militants, many of whom now express support for Al Qaeda’s global jihad, presents a grave threat to Pakistan’s security, as well as NATO efforts to push back the Taliban in Afghanistan. American officials have begun to weigh more robust covert operations to go after Al Qaeda in the lawless border areas because they are so concerned that the Pakistani government is unable to do so.

The unusual disclosures regarding Pakistan’s leading military intelligence agency — Inter-Services Intelligence, or the ISI — emerged in interviews last month with former senior officials who have knowledge of the inner workings of the ISI. The disclosures confirm some of the worst fears, and suspicions, of American and Western military officials and diplomats.

The interviews, a rare glimpse inside a notoriously secretive and opaque agency, offered a string of other troubling insights likely to refocus attention on the ISI’s role as Pakistan moves toward elections on Feb. 18 and a battle for control of the government looms:

¶One former senior Pakistani intelligence official, as well as other people close to the agency, acknowledged that the ISI led the effort to manipulate Pakistan’s last national election in 2002, and offered to drop corruption cases against candidates who would back President Pervez Musharraf.

A person close to the ISI said Mr. Musharraf had now ordered the agency to ensure that the coming elections were free and fair, and denied that the agency was working to rig the vote. But the acknowledgment of past rigging is certain to fuel opposition fears of new meddling.

The two former high-ranking intelligence officials acknowledged that after Sept. 11, 2001, when President Musharraf publicly allied Pakistan with the Bush administration, the ISI could not rein in the militants it had nurtured for decades as a proxy force to exert pressure on India and Afghanistan. After the agency unleashed hard-line Islamist beliefs, the officials said, it struggled to stop the ideology from spreading.

¶Another former senior intelligence official said dozens of ISI officers who trained militants had come to sympathize with their cause and had had to be expelled from the agency. He said three purges had taken place since the late 1980s and included the removal of three ISI directors suspected of being sympathetic to the militants.

None of the former intelligence officials who spoke to The New York Times agreed to be identified when talking about the ISI, an agency that has gained a fearsome reputation for interfering in almost every aspect of Pakistani life. But two former American intelligence officials agreed with much of what they said about the agency’s relationship with the militants.

So did other sources close to the ISI, who admitted that the agency had supported militants in Afghanistan and Kashmir, although they said they had been ordered to do so by political leaders.

The former intelligence officials appeared to feel freer to speak as Mr. Musharraf’s eight years of military rule weakened, and as a power struggle for control over the government looms between Mr. Musharraf and opposition political parties.

The officials were interviewed before the assassination of Ms. Bhutto, the opposition leader, on Dec. 27. Since then, the government has said that Pakistani militants linked to Al Qaeda are the foremost suspects in her killing. Her supporters have accused the government of a hidden hand in the attack.

While the author of Ms. Bhutto’s death remains a mystery, the interviews with the former intelligence officials made clear that the agency remained unable to control the militants it had fostered.

The threat from the militants, the former intelligence officials warned, is one that Pakistan is unable to contain. “We could not control them,� said one former senior intelligence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. “We indoctrinated them and told them, ‘You will go to heaven.’ You cannot turn it around so suddenly.�

The Context

After 9/11, the Bush administration pressed Mr. Musharraf to choose a side in fighting Islamist extremism and to abandon Pakistan’s longtime support for the Taliban and other Islamist militants.

In the 1990s, the ISI supported the militants as a proxy force to contest Indian-controlled Kashmir, the border territory that India and Pakistan both claim, and to gain a controlling influence in neighboring Afghanistan. In the 1980s, the United States supported militants, too, funneling billions of dollars to Islamic fighters battling Soviet forces in Afghanistan through the ISI, vastly increasing the agency’s size and power.

Publicly, Mr. Musharraf agreed to reverse course in 2001, and he has received $10 billion in aid for Pakistan since then in return. In an interview in November, he vehemently defended the conduct of the ISI, an agency that, according to American officials, was under his firm control for the last eight years while he served as both president and army chief.

Mr. Musharraf dismissed criticism of the ISI’s relationship with the militants. He cited the deaths of 1,000 Pakistani soldiers and police officers in battles with the militants in recent years — as well as several assassination attempts against himself — as proof of the seriousness of Pakistan’s counterterrorism effort.

“It is quite illogical if you think those people who have suffered 1,000 people dead, and I who have been attacked thrice or four or five times, that I would be supportive towards Taliban, towards Al Qaeda,� Mr. Musharraf said. “These are ridiculous things that discourages and demoralizes.�

But some former American intelligence officials have argued that Mr. Musharraf and the ISI never fully jettisoned their militant protégés, and instead carried on a “double-game.� They say Mr. Musharraf cooperated with American intelligence agencies to track down foreign Qaeda members while holding Taliban commanders and Kashmiri militants in reserve.

In order to undercut major opposition parties, he wooed religious conservatives, according to analysts. And instead of carrying out a crackdown, Mr. Musharraf took half-measures.

“I think he would make a decision when a situation arises,� said Hasan Askari Rizvi, a leading Pakistani military analyst, referring to militants openly confronting the government. “But before that he would not alienate any side.�

There is little dispute that Pakistan’s crackdown on the militants has been at best uneven, but key sources interviewed by The Times disagreed on why.

Most Western officials in Pakistan say they believe, as Pakistani officials, including President Musharraf, insist, that the agency is well disciplined, like the army, and is in no sense a rogue or out-of-control organization acting contrary to the policies of the leadership.

A senior Western military official in Pakistan said that if the ISI was covertly aiding the Taliban, the decision would come from the top of the government, not the agency. “That’s not an ISI decision,� the official said. “That’s a government-of-Pakistan decision.�

But former Pakistani intelligence officials insisted that Mr. Musharraf had ordered a crackdown on all militants. It was never fully carried out, however, because of opposition within his government and within ISI, they said.

One former senior intelligence official said that some officials in the government and the ISI thought the militants should be held in reserve, as insurance against the day when American and NATO forces abandoned the region and Pakistan might again need them as a lever against India.

“We had a school of thought that favored retention of this capability,� the former senior intelligence official said.

Some senior ministers and officials in Mr. Musharraf’s government sympathized with the militants and protected them, former intelligence officials said. Still others advised a go-slow approach, fearing a backlash against the government from the militants.

When arrests were ordered, the police refused to carry them out in some cases until they received written orders, believing the militants were still protected by the ISI, as they had been for years.

Inside the ISI, there was division as well. One part of the ISI hunted down militants, the officials said, while another continued to work with them. The result was confusion.

In interviews in 2002, Kashmiri militants in Pakistan said they had been told by the government to maintain a low profile and wait. But as Pakistani military operations in the tribal areas intensified, along with airstrikes by C.I.A.-operated drones, militant groups there issued highly charged and sometimes exaggerated accounts of women and children being killed.

The first suicide bombing attack on a military target outside the tribal areas came days after an airstrike on a madrasa in the tribal area of Bajaur in October 2006 killed scores of people.

Another turning point came last July when Pakistani forces stormed the Red Mosque in Islamabad, where militants had armed themselves in a compound less than a mile from ISI headquarters and demanded the imposition of Islamic law. Government officials said that more than 100 people died. The militants have insisted that thousands did.

Several weeks later, militants carried out the first direct attacks on ISI employees. Suicide bombers twice attacked buses ferrying agency employees, killing 18 on Sept. 4 and 15 more on Nov. 24. According to Pakistani analysts, the attacks signaled that enraged militants had turned on their longtime patrons.

The Militant

One militant leader, Maulana Masood Azhar, typifies how extremists once trained by the ISI have broken free of the agency’s control, turned against the government and joined with other militants to create powerful new networks.

In 2000, Mr. Azhar received support from the ISI when he founded Jaish-e-Muhammad, or Army of Muhammad, a Pakistani militant group fighting Indian forces in Kashmir, according to Robert Grenier, who served as the Central Intelligence Agency station chief in Islamabad from 1999 to 2002. The ISI intermittently provided training and operational coordination to such groups, he said, but struggled to fully control them.

Mr. Musharraf banned Jaish-e-Muhammad and detained Mr. Azhar after militants carried out an attack on the Indian Parliament building in December 2001. Indian officials accused Jaish-e-Muhammad and another Pakistani militant group of masterminding the attack. After India massed hundreds of thousands of troops on Pakistan’s border, Mr. Musharraf vowed in a nationally televised speech that January to crack down on all militants in Pakistan.

“We will take strict action against any Pakistani who is involved in terrorism inside the country or abroad,� he said. Two weeks later, a British-born member of Mr. Azhar’s group, Ahmed Omar Sheikh, kidnapped Daniel Pearl, a reporter for The Wall Street Journal who was beheaded by his captors. Mr. Sheikh surrendered to the ISI, the agency that had supported Jaish-e-Muhammad, and was sentenced to death for the kidnapping.

After Mr. Pearl’s killing, Pakistani officials arrested more than 2,000 people in a crackdown. But within a year, Mr. Azhar and most of the 2,000 militants who had been arrested were freed. “I never believed that government ties with these groups was being irrevocably cut,� said Mr. Grenier, now a managing director at Kroll, a risk consulting firm.

At the same time, Pakistan seemingly went “through the motions� when it came to hunting Taliban leaders who fled into Pakistan after the 2001 American invasion of Afghanistan, he said.

Encouraged by the United States, the Pakistanis focused their resources on arresting senior Qaeda members, he said, which they successfully did from 2002 to 2005. Since then, arrests have slowed as Al Qaeda and other militant groups have become more entrenched in the tribal areas.

Asked in 2006 why the Pakistani government did not move against the leading Taliban commander Jalaluddin Haqqani, and his son Sirajuddin, who are based in the tribal areas and have long had links with Al Qaeda, one senior ISI official said it was because Pakistan needed to retain some assets of its own.

That policy haunts Mr. Musharraf and the United States, according to American and Pakistani analysts. Today Pakistan’s tribal areas are host to a lethal stew of foreign Qaeda members, Uzbek militants, Taliban, ISI-trained Pakistani extremists, disgruntled tribesmen and new recruits.

The groups carried out a record number of suicide bombings in Pakistan and Afghanistan last year and have been tied to three major terrorist plots in Britain and Germany since 2005.

Mr. Azhar, who once served his ISI mentors in Kashmir, is thought to be hiding in the tribal area of Bajaur, or nearby Dir, and fighting Pakistani security forces, according to one former intelligence official. Militants who took part in the Red Mosque siege in Islamabad in July were closely affiliated with Mr. Azhar’s group. This fall, his group fielded fighters in the Swat Valley, the famous tourist spot, where the militants presented a challenge of new proportions to the government, seizing several districts and mounting battles against Pakistani forces that left scores dead.

One militant from a banned sectarian group who joined Mr. Azhar’s group, Qari Zafar, now trains insurgents in South Waziristan on how to rig roadside bombs and vests for suicide bombings, according to the former intelligence official.

Cooperation against the Taliban fighting in Afghanistan has improved since 2006, and three senior Taliban figures have been caught, according to Western officials and sources close to the ISI. Yet doubts remain about the Pakistani government’s intentions.

Senior provincial ISI officials continue to meet with high-level members of the Taliban in the border provinces, according to one Western diplomat. “It is not illogical to surmise that cooperation is on the agenda, and not just debriefing,� the diplomat said.

“There are groups they know they have lost control of,� the Western diplomat added. But the government moved only against those groups that have attacked the Pakistani state, the diplomat said, adding, “It seems very difficult for them to write them off.�

The Agency Now

Western officials say that before Mr. Musharraf resigned as army chief in December, he appointed a loyalist to run the ISI and appears determined to retain power over the agency even as a civilian president.

“For as long as he can, Musharraf will keep trying to control these organizations,� a Western diplomat said. “I don’t think we should expect this man to become an elder statesman as we know it.�

That puts Mr. Musharraf’s successor as army chief, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, who headed the ISI from 2004 to 2007, in a potentially pivotal position. General Kayani, a pro-American moderate, is loyal to Mr. Musharraf to a point, according to retired officers. But he will abandon him if he thinks Mr. Musharraf’s actions are significantly undermining the standing of the Pakistani army.

Mr. Musharraf will maintain control over the agency as long as his interests coincide with General Kayani’s, they said, while the new civilian prime minister who emerges from February’s elections is likely to have far less authority over the agency. Opposition political parties already accuse the agency of meddling in next month’s election. The Western diplomat called the ISI “the army’s dirty bag of tricks.�

Since Ms. Bhutto’s assassination, members of her party have accused government officials, including former ISI agents, of having a hidden hand in the attack or of knowing about a plot and failing to inform Ms. Bhutto.

American experts played down the chances of a government conspiracy against Ms. Bhutto. They also said it was unlikely that low-level or retired officers working alone or with militants carried out the attack.

But nearly half of Pakistanis said in a recent poll that they suspected that government agencies or pro-government politicians had assassinated Ms. Bhutto. Such suspicion stems from decades of interference in elections and politics by the ISI, according to analysts, as well as a high level of domestic surveillance, intimidation and threats to journalists, academics and human rights activists, which former intelligence officials also acknowledged.

Pakistani and American experts say that distrust speaks to the urgent need to reform a hugely powerful intelligence agency that Pakistan’s military rulers have used for decades to suppress political opponents, manipulate elections and support militant groups.

“Pakistan would certainly be better off if the ISI were never used for domestic political purposes,� said Mr. Grenier, the former C.I.A. Islamabad station chief. “That goes without saying.�

Pakistani analysts and Western diplomats argue that the country will remain unstable as long as the ISI remains so powerful and so unaccountable. The ISI has grown more powerful in each period of military rule, they said.

Civilian leaders, including Mrs. Bhutto, could not resist using it to secure their political aims, but neither could they control it. And the army continues to rely on the ISI for its own foreign policy aims, particularly battling India in Kashmir and seeking influence in Afghanistan.

“The question is, how do you change that?� asked one Western diplomat. “Their tentacles are everywhere.�

The mullahs are back in reckoning .......BB is eliminated......Mush is now a civilian and even he cannot control the Jehadi tap.....the rhetoric against mullahs has been subdued.......

mullahs are back......Jehad is now on full swing in Pakistan....Shariat is only inevitable........every Pakistani men must start throwing off their razors..........women must start looking at the latest designs of Burqas......

Masadi sahib,

(My analysis was spot on, it was not wrong. You and that peon of the West tahmed need to read more carefully...)

You started claiming that BB was bumped off by US only after she was actually bumped off. Had your analysis been spot on you would have PREDICTED that BB wud be bumped off.

Your analytical techniques at best try to explain waht happened, not what is likely to happen. By contrast HP sain did predict even b4 her assassination that something BIG was going to happen.

Regards

#222 Posted by tahmed32

“1. Is the US influence due to some evil intent on the part of the US, or is it necessitated by conditions created in Pakistan by ambitious, lawless dictators? Why is US influence not an issue in neighboring India or Turkey or indeed any other democratic country in the world?�

The US influence in Pakistan is not something new that I need to go into the history to trace that. Still, Pakistan is hooked up with the US since at least 1954 when Pakistan signed Defense pacts with the US. Pakistan and the US relations are never of equal and they cannot be as Pakistan is pretty much dependent on US aid, both military and financial. I don’t know what is evil and what is not but the US certainly has global interests and Pakistan does not. If Pakistan supports the US in its Global interest then only evil would come out of it like the aftermath of the afghan war. I don’t know if you would qualify that as evil but I would!

Every country in the world is different and they create relationships with larger powers based on their national interests. India did not have a close relationship with the US. India was allied with the SU. Now India is changing pattern and the first thing it gets tied into is the nuke agreement which is more satisfying to US goals than of Indian. Turkey along with Israel forms the alliance that the US has in the Middle East. We have yet to see any positive role played by Turkey in the Middle East. Turkey too is tied up with the US in multiple alliances. Obviously, like Pakistan, Turkey too does not have many global ambitions but it sides with the US in its all adventures. Most of the blame, as you said, goes to the Pakistan army which for its own nefarious designs to control the country and it resources, made Pakistan reliant on the US aid alone.

2. What is the nature of this US influence?... The US government - even the Bush government with all its faults - echoed the CJ's call for free and fair elections…. These are issues that are understood in the US even by Bush (who is the sole head of state i know who has echoed the CJ's call for free and fair elections) because these are issues that the US revolutionaries themselves fought for two centuries ago.�

Yes, on paper all this looks good. But when the US ignores the CJ dismissal, ignore the emergency, presses Pakistan politicians to work with the Army, discount the suspension of the Supreme Court, has no input as to why the CJ is still under house arrest, agrees with the election postponement even before the Pak government announced it. Suggested that UN investigations are not required even before the Pakistan government said no then you wanna question the motives. The US at this time only wants to work with the army and how is that supporting the democracy in Pakistan? There are many more instances of the US love for democracy in Pakistan. The US supported Zia UL Haq, The US supported Ayub dictatorship. I guess you would call that love for democracy but I wouldn’t.
Haathi kay daant khanay kay aur Dikhana kay aur.

tahmed writes "i shall be back later to check your work. So, calm down, think hard, and give me a proper answer."

The fool thinks that by repeating his falsehood he can prove something. Read our debates of the past, he always claims this bs, then puts his tail between his legs and runs off. The people here are not fools they understand what the US stands for viz a viz the Third World, they also understand that each country is different in it geostrategic importance to the US and hence the level and pattern of interference is different. For Pakistan that curse filled interference occurs through the military, in Turkey the situation is much the same though not as intense, a pretense of democracy is allowed though the military can still get rid of the civilian government under the guise of protecting the constitution...

tahmed writes "We" in this case is Turkey and the US, and the speaker is the elected Prime Minister Turkey, Abudullah Gul. Now you go tell the 60 million or so Turks why you are smarter than them and why Gul is a peon of the west."

Rhetoric based on master symbols of democracy for mass public consumption is no new trick that is used by those wanting to deceive their public. Abdullah Gul knows very well what "Values" the US elite espose when they talk to his military directly trying to subvert democracy as they were doing prior to the Iraq war and as this very man was complaining. Listen carefully and listen well there is NO value that the US elite and by extension their public espouse more than the value of money making and money grabbing, based on that value all other "values" are up for manipulation and sale...

masadi: quit stalling - go back re-read my post #222 where the two questions are listed. then come back and give me a substantive answer (no gibberish, no abuse). i shall be back later to check your work. So, calm down, think hard, and give me a proper answer.

tahmed writes "SO my questions remain unanswered"

Not a single point of your distractions trying to distract away from US interference in Pakistan by throwing out other countries (which are different to Pakistan in many ways)were ignored by me. Tell us WHICH question remained unanswered, not a single one but liars like you are masters at deception. Know for a fact that were it not for US support for dictatorship in Pakistan and the Pakistan military, dictatorship of that kind would have long passed from Pakistan.

masadi: and while you are busy trying to provide a substantive answer (as opposed to gibberish and as opposed to abuse and accusations) to #276, look what another peon of the west said this week: "We share the same values -- democracy, human rights, the functioning of the free market. We are working together jointly for the same goals in the region."

"We" in this case is Turkey and the US, and the speaker is the elected Prime Minister Turkey, Abudullah Gul. Now you go tell the 60 million or so Turks why you are smarter than them and why Gul is a peon of the west. I am sure they will be so impressed they will overthrow the government and appoint you Ataturk II. Except of course, Ataturk was a peon of the west too by your definition.

#273 masadi: you achieved a miracle - you managed to write a post without abuse. It nevertheless remains true to your usual hypocrisy - you start by boldly declaring that everything I wrote is untrue. And then try to back this by writing a load of gibberish that does not even add up to an argument, even a weak one.

SO my questions remain unanswered. Try again.

Zeemax writes "Unless it was with inside involvement"

Read my point on Zardari

Majumdar writes "Are you implying that it is the USA which got rid of BB? But this is being wiser after the event, isn't it? After all prior to BB's assassination you were always insisting that it wud be Mush who wud be got rid off with " a Hellfire shoved up his **** ". But as it is it was not Mush but BB who cud bumped off.

You have to admit, Masadi sahib, that for once you failed in your analysis"


Less than a day after the event I wrote the piece, which became my ilog in which I accuse the US in collusion with the Pakistan Army of getting rid of the BB. That was not "after the event" in that no evidence of anykind had yet come forth and my analysis was based on my understanding of the US/Pakistan Army shenanigans and events preceding that event.

Regarding the Musharraf claim of the US aiming a hellfire for his a$$, that was clearly in the context of him giving up his uniform. If he had not taken it off in private i.e. voluntarily (as I had stated) then the US will strip him in public (via the hellfire). So since he took it off in private the situation for the latter didn't arise. My analysis was spot on, it was not wrong. You and that peon of the West tahmed need to read more carefully...

tahmed writes "There is nothing I wrote in #222 that is factually untrue or unreasonable"

Everything you wrote in 222 is either factually untrue (it does not take God to dominate the Pakistan Army and is unreasonable (comparing India and Turkey to Pakistan when the US indeed does interfere in both of their affairs but because of different histories, different geographies there is variation in that interference. India has just allowed the US in, after keeping clear of it unlike Pakistan and like I have said before, if it were not for them getting their dirty work done through Pakistan, India would have had several US inspired military coups in its short history post partititon as well. The US routinely interferes with the Turkish military to the extent of using it to go against its democratic setup. No country that has military bases in far away foreign lands and dictates its will at the point of the Gun, as the US does can have any claims to be democratic or meaning others well. It is just a spoiled brat of a country that knows nothing of decency or human rights for that matter. Regarding singing the democracy song while subverting it as fact, as it does routinely in Pakistan, only fools the likes of you will take that "song" and make a whole hamd o naat of the objects of your worship around it.

By the way, I did not refer to Sohail as Jabba the Hut, that reference, if you can learn how to read, was in response to Hamid alleging that no woman would like to come within ten feet of me. It was directed at Hamid

tahmed32,

I firmly believe the only thing which can still save Pakistan is the 1973 constitution, in its original form. That Constitution is Pakistan.

#270r responds to fuzair #268

and amen to that ("agree that PM should go").

except that: instead of "apres moi, le deluge" (as every damned dictator claims), let us hope this time it will be "apres musharraf, Pas plus de dictateurs" (after musharraf, no more dictators). and perhaps even "sic semper tyrannis" (with a proper trial that educates would-be general-presidents never again to abuse their official powers to destroy the constitution. and let the military generals realize what the nation is begging them: "Do us a favor: dont do us any more favors".

#260 Posted by fuzair,

Yes I have asked this question before that what happened to the 5,000 strong 'Jaanisaran-e-Benazir' force which Rehman Malik had raised to form a cordon? Many of whom died in the Karachi bomb? None of them could be seen in Liaquat Bagh.

Yes it was a huge security failure from Benazir's own security detail. I still can't figure out how? Unless it was with inside involvement.

Benazir, poor woman, was just carried away with people's emotions, and left her security in others' hands. I suspect she was betrayed.

Tahmed,

Not that I've been following this whole mess minute by minute but the news report seem to clearly indicate that the body was always with the PPP; up to and including the mobs of PPP jiyalas ransacking the hospital when they learnt she was dead.

Come on, what would the PPP's reaction have been if the govt had tried to take control of the body? How many more would have died? The Lal Masjid case is not exactly comparable but it is true that it should never have been allowed to get anywhere close to the level it did.

In any case, I agree that PM should go; he has long negated whatever good he initially may have done and is intent on dragging Pakistan down with him: l'etat c'est moi will soon become apres moi, le deluge.

Yes, it is a sad reflection of the declining capability of the state that it can't even carry out an autopsy on the most important murder victim in Pakistani history in decades.

fuzair #260 It is a stretch (to put it mildly) to say that the body was in PPP hands and the government was helplessly watching from the sidelines. And even if it were true - then a government that is ineffective in carrying out even simple tasks of the state (i.e. securing a dead body for autopsy) is clearly no longer fit to be in power.

And of course this is more of the bs that Musharraf has been rolling out from day one when he claimed that his only interest was in restoring democracy. Example: Look at lal masjid - for months he had maulvis intimidating Islamabad residents, kidnapping and defaming women, acting as law-givers, judges and jury and executive, right under his nose. It was the same excuse then - he was "afraid" of the maulvis. Just like he is "afraid" of PPP (as you now claim). And when the Chinese finally pulled his ears, Musharraf suddenly lost his "fear".

Too many innocent Pakistanis have been killed, too much destruction caused to the integrity of the nation - making a mockery of the legal system with the PCO, the electoral system with the "referendums" and "deals" with maulvis - in order to stoke the ego of one individual. Have some pity on your own countrymen and stop rushing to defend your "fellow fauji".

fuzair #260 It is a stretch (to put it mildly) to say that the body was in PPP hands and the government was helplessly watching from the sidelines. And even if it were true - then a government that is ineffective in carrying out even simple tasks of the state (i.e. securing a dead body for autopsy) is clearly no longer fit to be in power.

And of course this is more of the bs that Musharraf has been rolling out from day one when he claimed that his only interest was in restoring democracy. Example: Look at lal masjid - for months he had maulvis intimidating Islamabad residents, kidnapping and defaming women, acting as law-givers, judges and jury and executive, right under his nose. It was the same excuse then - he was "afraid" of the maulvis. Just like he is "afraid" of PPP (as you now claim). And when the Chinese finally pulled his ears, Musharraf suddenly lost his "fear".

Too many innocent Pakistanis have been killed, too much destruction caused to the integrity of the nation - making a mockery of the legal system with the PCO, the electoral system with the "referendums" and "deals" with maulvis - in order to stoke the ego of one individual. Have some pity on your own countrymen and stop rushing to defend your "fellow fauji".

Re: # 254

Hamidm Sahib:

"...and would get the seventy virgins ? ..."

Are you, like a bania, keeping two virgins for yourself?

Re: # 256

Zeemax sahib:

"....Except that if there were any 70 virgins to be found anywhere in one place, I would beat Baitullah Mehsud to it. ..."

I like your spirit of competition.

Re: # 1 Laddu:
Good idea! leave running the business of state to Pakistanis themselves. They will do a good job! No more Faujis.
Kamath

hey zeemax...we're still waiting on you to tell us what the model is of the "glock rifle" you say was used...you know..the one with the "locking laser scope"(as opposed to, I presume, one attached with duct tape)

Re: # 259 zee

Please explain - what script?... The single biggest textile export now is China - do you mean china sponsored this new blast in karachi?...

Tahmed,

As far as the autopsy is concerned, its pretty easy to see why one wasn't carried out. The body was under the control of her lieutenants at all times. What do you think the PPP's reaction would have been if the GoP had said, "This is now a murder case. Hand over her body and we will carry out an autopsy and then decide when we will hand her back to you to bury." Given the normal Pakistani's reaction to the "desecration" of a dead body; what would the PPP's reaction have been? How many battalions of SSG and armor would have been needed to take possession of the body from the hospital?

In any case, why didn't Zardari order an autopsy carried out himself? No difficulty in finding a pathologist I'm sure, even one from AFIP! I agree that an autopsy should have been carried out. I thought one had and that prize idiot Cheema was quoting from the autopsy report and not pulling stuff out from his behind.

+++++++++++++++++++

Zeemax,

If this was a professional hit, the quality of professional hit men is abysmally poor in Pakistan. It is clear that it was a crime of opportunity. IF she hadn't stood up, she would have been OK. Even if the Govt was criminally lax in not providing her a strong escort at all times, what was to stop the PPP from getting a group of men with police/army background and using them to form a security cordon around her SUV as it left the meeting venue? Any idiot should have known that was one of the security weak points and taken preventive steps.

The script plays out ...

... now the single biggest textiles exporter.

a reasonable analysis

daily times :

Last week I had the pleasure of having dinner at a friend’s home where one of the guests was the foreign editor of a major US newsweekly. This gentleman has written much and most of it, in my opinion, makes sense. Therefore, I was looking forward to hearing what he had to say. The evening turned out to be quite interesting and perhaps even intellectually stimulating.

That the other guests included some of the leading journalists and ‘opinion makers’ from Lahore added to the quality of the discussion. All the expected topics were on the table and were discussed.

But something was lacking.

I thought that many of the guests would be interested in what US policy and opinion makers were up to and I even expected a few questions about the current US elections. However, what disappointed me was the fact that many of those present were more interested in sending a message to the US government that it should insist on free and fair elections in Pakistan. Or, rather, force President Musharraf to have such elections.

It was surprising to learn that so many members of the Pakistani intelligentsia are convinced that the US not only influences policies of our government but in essence micromanages what goes on in Pakistan.

The relationship between President Bush and President Musharraf is quite cordial and Mr Bush has often come out in support of President Musharraf when the latter seems to be in a bit of hot water. However, the important factor in the co-dependence of these two countries and their leaders is the mutual interest in fighting the ‘war on international terror’.

It is important for Pakistanis to understand and accept the fact that over the last many years, the US has considerably helped the country and made a significant financial contribution to the Pakistan Army. Most of this support is due to the Pakistani commitment to support the US-led campaign against Al Qaeda and the Taliban. In spite of the misgivings US policymakers have about President Musharraf, most of them believe that he is still their best bet.

Undeniably, there is increased US interest in Pakistani politics over the last year. A couple of imperatives are driving US policy towards Pakistan at this time.

First and foremost are the upcoming US general elections. The Bush administration is coming to an end in twelve months. The last thing President Bush wants is to be remembered as perhaps the only US president who started two wars and won neither.

At the same time, different candidates vying for the presidency, especially among the Democrats, will try and make these wars an issue during their electoral campaigns. On the Republican side, most of the candidates will distance themselves from President Bush. Therefore President Bush would like nothing better at this time than some positive outcome, at least in Afghanistan, even perhaps an ‘October surprise’.

The other important concern for the US is Pakistan’s nuclear capability. The greatest nightmare of all for US policymakers is the possibility of a nuclear attack on US soil. Therefore, when US politicians make a big deal out of it, we should take them seriously. In this matter, both political parties of the US have the same point of view. The rising tide of terrorist attacks within Pakistan combined with the assassination of Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto has created great concern within the US establishment. For them, a destabilised Pakistan with the possibility of an Islamist takeover is a distinct possibility.

For Pakistanis who find this idea entirely preposterous, it might be worthwhile to go back to what happened in Iran thirty years ago. Nobody could even imagine then that Iran after the Shah would become a theocracy. And, Iran was a lot less Islamised at that time than Pakistan is today. It is mostly for this reason that the US establishment wants to see some form of representative democracy emerge in Pakistan.

That inevitably brings us to what is going on in Pakistan at this time. Increasingly, most opposition parties are starting to talk about an attempt to indefinitely delay the elections, using terrorist attacks as a pretext. As a corollary, many in Pakistan now believe that the Pakistani establishment is somehow engineering much of the recent mayhem including the assassination of Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto for this very purpose.

I am convinced that President Musharraf is not involved in what is going on. However, his recent actions, including the emergency, the firing of many judges and the delay in elections despite the willingness of the PPP and the PMLN to contest on schedule, suggest that he is not quite ready for a free and fair election in which his supporters might come out the losers.

As such, most people believe that either the elections will be further delayed or rigged in favour of the pro-Musharraf Muslim League. The only questions out there relate to the scale of rigging and how the people of Pakistan will react if there is indeed large-scale rigging. If the elections are delayed or large scale rigging takes place, and people do indeed come out to protest, things could get ugly.

The Internet is flooded with conspiracy theories about why Bhutto was assassinated and who is behind these terrorist attacks. The latest one making the rounds is that somehow all this is an attempt to destabilise and eventually break up Pakistan so that the US could take over the country. The ISI is being held responsible and the ISI as ‘everybody’ knows is a spawn of the CIA.

Personally I do not believe in such nonsense, but if President Musharraf does bring Pakistan to a point where law and order breaks down completely, then the US might just be forced to do something.

What this something might be is the question I really wanted to ask the journalist visiting from the US.

Bomb attack at Gul Ahmed Textiles in Quaidabad, Karachi. Six dead, 25 injured, 4 critical.

#254 Posted by hamidm2,

...Sigh ... you know, you could be right, hamidm.

Except that if there were any 70 virgins to be found anywhere in one place, I would beat Baitullah Mehsud to it.

Re: # 254

now that is a very complex drink. You need a very good palate to be able to discern the various tastes. Do you really think that zeemax has it?

Re: # 250

zeemax,

..... has it occured to you that many people were out to kill bb - jihadis and muslims, isi and mushy, mossad and the thieves of gujarat, raw and zardari, the rockefellers and donald trump, parsis and christians, the cia, - and that baithullah just wanted to make sure that "his men" did the job and would get the seventy virgins ?

#248 Posted by queen_cut_paste,

There is no need of any exhumation. Bhutto family will never agree to it, and musharraf knows that which is why he's just posturing to gain brownie points.

All that needs to be done is to find the original skull x-rays, and not the blanked out versions flashed around by Min of Info.

An x-ray shows bones, and not just a bright spot in a vacuum which is supposed to be her skull. The produced version does not even show the vertebrae or jaw.

hamidm: and btw i didnt say mush did it - i leave such assertions to those who are true prophets (of which there is no shortage on chowk). i did say that mush (and his government) was criminally negligent in not providing adequate security (the fact that BB chose the SP that the government is now saying is a joke) to prevent such an asassinatio, and after the event it was criminally negligent in refusing to do an autopsy (and claiming that zardari said no is a joke again - since in criminal cases the body is not handed over to relatives until a proper autopsy is done).

Whether or not mush actually authorized the killings through a nod of the head, or whether it was done totally independant of him, or whether musharraf in fact even believed that BB was his best bet in clinging to power, is something we will probably never know.

Because I know for sure there is no bullet wound other than on the right side. Whether it was a bullet or a strike, I don’t want to comment, I don’t know,� he told Newsweek from Rawalpindi.
The exhumation, he said, will lay to rest all allegations of government involvement in Ms. Bhutto’s assassination.

The President said that the man in charge of the security of Ms. Bhutto - who was killed in a gun and suicide attack on December 27 in Rawalpindi after addressing an election rally—was “her own handpicked superintendent of police.�

“This area (where she was killed) was known to be dangerous. There was a death threat, intelligence that there would be an attack, and we told her, yet she wanted to go.... She went into a dangerous place, and if you get out of the (bullet-proof) vehicle, you are responsible. All the others sitting inside the vehicle were safe,� he said.


When asked if he had seen the X-rays of Bhutto, he said “Yes,� adding “I am a soldier, I’ve seen a lot of bullet wounds. A bullet wound is a small hole, and if the bullet goes through it makes a big hole on the other side. Now that is what I understand to be a bullet wound. This was not that, although I’m not an expert. But how does it absolve the government if it was a bullet or not?�

“Why would we be hiding (the cause of Bhutto’s death)? It’s ridiculous, and when I read these comments, I laugh at them,� Musharraf said. However, the President said he would not order a post-mortem without the agreement of Ms. Bhutto’s family. A post-mortem would have huge political ramifications.

He asserted that Ms. Bhutto’s party, the PPP, is not agreeing to a post-mortem, as they know that there is no conspiracy behind her death.

Asked why he should not use his executive power to order it, he said: “Everything is not black and white here. It would have very big political ramifications. If I just ordered the body exhumed, that would be careless, unless (Ms. Bhutto’s) people agreed. But they will not.�

He said Ms. Bhutto’s supporters have not agreed to a post-mortem “because they know it’s a fact there is nothing wrong.�

Asked whether Asif Ali Zardari was playing politics in seeking U.N. probe, the President said, “Everybody is trying to gain political advantage; the entire opposition is trying to take political advantage. I know what [Bhutto’s opponents] used to say about her, but all of a sudden ... it makes me laugh, actually...

When the body was at the hospital, Zardari himself said it could not be done; he didn’t want the post-mortem done.

“Now, he says if there were a United Nations investigation he would allow a post-mortem. There cannot be a U.N. investigation. There are not two or three countries involved. Why should there be a U.N. investigation? This is ridiculous.�

President Musharraf was also asked in the interview about reports that the United States is thinking about launching CIA operations in Pakistan with or without Pakistan’s approval.

“We are totally in cooperation on the intelligence side,� he said. “But we are totally against (a military operation). We are a sovereign country. We will ask for assistance from outsiders. They won’t impose their will on us�.

In the interview, Musharraf also expressed his refusal to let the United States launch CIA operations against Al-Qaeda in Pakistan.


http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?option=com_content&tas k=view&id=26150 &Itemid=2

#245 Posted by hamidm2,

Read the Op-Ed of Kamran Shafi.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/kamran/kamran.htm

Endpiece: The so-called intercept that the junta is touting as proof that Baitullah Mehsud ordered Benazir’s assassination is pure poppycock and nothing else. Mehsud is innocent enough to say to ‘Maulvi Sahib’: “I am at Makeen, come over, I am at Anwar Shah’s house�?!? And to ask “were they our men�? Er, if he ordered Benazir’s assassination he should know it was his men, what? I believe Baitullah; I do not believe the junta and its quite pathetic, lying minions. Baitullah did not kill Benazir.

The times are too fraught for any stupid Bushisms. Sorry.

Regards

#245 hamidm: Why not pick up those extra two pounds and er...round out...at 200? (sorry, couldnt resist that).

At my annual physical a couple of weeks ago, I told the doctor that I was planning to lose 10 pounds and become perfect - and instead of the expected applause, he laughed and said the concept of weight loss was easy, implementation was not. Now remind me why we pay these doctors... :-(

zeemax : see 246 and http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26150 &Itemid=2

Conspiracy theory?

Agree with it and start a campaign for it to know once and for all how she died.

#244 Posted by ferozk,

Could be, but the one presented to Scotland Yard is what is commonly called a Chinese TT. I don't think that is a 9mm.

Perhaps Pavocavalry could comment.

Benezair to be exhumed!

Musharuf wants the body out and a proper autopsy carried out so that people find out how she died.

Speaking to Newsweek magazine Pakistan President Pervez Mushraff was quoted as saying that he would want to call for the exhumation of former Pak Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto’s body and would want to lay to rest all allegations of government's involvement in Bhutto's assassination. However, he has ruled out ordering a post-mortem without the agreement of Bhutto's family.




go here to find the interview on video

http://www.findinternettv.com/Video,item,3574946106.aspx

anil mian,

..... if i lost forty pounds as you suggest, i would look like gandhi ji (god forbid!) ...... i haven't weighed that musch since they made me run and down the hills of kakul more than thirty years ago - the kids still laugh when they look at those pictures .... as a matter of fact they say that i looked like an emaciated indian and that i should have been in the indian army ! ...... astagfirullah ! ..... but i do appreciate your concern and have been eating sushi at least three times a week since the beginnig of this year .... and in keeping with the japanese tradition i have also been consuming two-three pints of beer to wash down the sushi! ..... i don't know how the japanese pull it off ....maybe it is because they don't eat biryani and gajar ka halwa on the weekends ....

..... anyway, this discussion about my weight and looks is a lot more interesting than the silly conspiracy theories about who killed bb ......

.........i like to think that it was the jihadis because it suits my world view; mad masadi thinks it was the rockefellers, because he is a dimwith suffering from sexual anxieties; tahmed thinks it was musharraf, because he is a prophet; zeemax thinks it was the cia-mossad-raw axis with the help of a parsi killer on the payroll of tata motors and funded by the mqm ......... why? because zeemax is a complex man who likes complex things .........

re: Zeemax

I have seen the footage, but it was blurred. Judging from it, though, the pistol looks like a 9mm.

Ciao

Re: # 241

Hasan saheb,

BB had certainly changed in last 5 years. She had re-invented herself post 9/11 as a modern muslim woman ready to take on these mullahs. She had also re-invented her own version of Islam for the modern world. If she had come to power the mullahs would certainly have been decimated.
I have no doubt.
The problem is that every one has to bear the fruits of their past karmas. Some how her past mistakes caught up and the demons she supported once came back to haunt her!!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3177691.ece

Ciao

"In all as a hindu idolator I believe BB 's survival would have been better for Indo-Pak communal relations because she would have completely eliminated the sarkari Jehadis as well."

Laddu miaN -- now can you hammer this profound paragraph of yours on the head of that Hindu non-idolater -- that "lever" guy, Arjun miaN -- who is having difficulty from his jag jag ever since....:)

#192 Posted by HP,

Thanks HP. I read the Ishtiaq Baig column. Why do you think PPP is promoting this theory (i.e. US involvement)?

BB clearly expressed her intentions to act against the sarkari Jehadis when she talked about how setting up madarassa in order to gather political power has turned into a business. The sarkari madarassas (mainly Punjabi) were increasingly getting jittery and it is these who have assasinated BB through the punjabi jehadis.

Hamid Gul , the ex-ISI army men, Mush and the Punjabi Mullahs have done this job. They cunnigly roped in the Al Qaeda to take the credit for this Jehadic success- when in reality it was a political move to eliminate BB from Pakistani politics!!!

Although BB did support Jehad earlier....she had considerably changed her position in the recent times.
We would have know the effect of that only if she was around in power, but it appears the Jehadis were really worried that her actual stance would be tougher than Mush's.

Mush plays the balancing game by killing some Jehadis who do not obey him and by supporting those Jehadis who obey and follow him . He is responsible for keeping the steady flow of sarkari jehadis intact. It is these sarkari jehadis who were obviously worried with BB's pronouncements.
That is why killing BB was more important to them - and Mush had his covert support to this sarakari Jehadi operation.
In all as a hindu idolator I believe BB 's survival would have been better for Indo-Pak communal relations because she would have completely eliminated the sarkari Jehadis as well.

I am dead sure it is these ex-ISI Jehadi leaders like Hamid Gul who has done it through the Al Qaeda- Taliban network he had established in PAkistan.
Mush know it and has his covert support. Now this support is overt in the press briefings. Hamid Gul and the ex-ISI are bent upon destroying PAkistan. Mush is part of the cover up because he also desired death to BB who through her un-relenting public support and international pressure made Mush step down.
Pakistani politics is deadly, murky and full of Islamic mafiaso operations.
Lahol!!!

Masadi sahib,

{{{That is why the US found it quite convenient, using the Pakistan Army (with whom it had a dual fulfillment of purpose in this) to get rid of the BB.}}}

Are you implying that it is the USA which got rid of BB? But this is being wiser after the event, isn't it? After all prior to BB's assassination you were always insisting that it wud be Mush who wud be got rid off with " a Hellfire shoved up his **** ". But as it is it was not Mush but BB who cud bumped off.

You have to admit, Masadi sahib, that for once you failed in your analysis.

Regards

anil: why is it so hard to acknowledge that you made assumptions about hamidm's height and persist in making that wrong assumption as you do in your post below? while i can understand masadi stonewalling, i expect you to be more open in acknowledging a mistake when it is brought to your attention.

#233 is further to my post #231 to masadi.

and moreover, if Hamidm was in fact fat and ugly (as you claim in your usual baseless manner) - what does that have to do with what he writes? earlier you were calling Dr. Sohail the Jabba the Hut, and now it is Hamidm.

only a dimwit is concerned about a posters appearance on a discussion forum like chowk. so try to be the intellectual you aspire to be - and focus on what people write. rather than trying to find fault in their physical appearance or making personal attacks like a madman hurling abuse on passersby on the street.

Re: # 227

Hamidm Sahib:

"...if i lost twenty, i would start looking for a replacement for mrs hamidm ! ..."

And if you loose what I hinted, Mrs. Hamidm will start worrshiping you. It is better to let Mrs. Hamidm worship you than, you start looking elsewhere.

I am truly disappointed by Musharraff. He has shattered my heart. I was counting on another Old Delhiwala. Joker Cheema to his comments on popularity of BB with Army make me very suspecious. I do not think Army is playing clean.

I read Fareed Zakaria's report, what do you think of what Fareed Zakaria says about Musharraff?

masadi: writing baseless abuse and making false accusations (as you do below) is not "giving someone hell" - any twit can write abuse on chowk (and get banned nowadays - as you routinely do).

twisting what i wrote (e.g. when i point to your treating US as if it was all-powerful God and claiming I am thereby equating the US with God) and making baseless accusations (as your post is littered with about me) is not "giving hell" either.

There is nothing I wrote in #222 that is factually untrue or unreasonable and you know that and so you studiously avoid a substantive response and provide instead abuse and accusations and lies. No amount of abuse and accusations and rambling assertions are a substitute for a reasoned, fact-based argument.

...And your claim that Hamidm looks like Jabba the Hut because he is 198 pounds is merely another example of your stupidity in automatically assumeing he is fat and ugly.

in #229 read "Once needs to ask, is his perception of God so very low that he equates dominating a country's military (as the US does the Pakistani military) as being akin to being God?"

as

One needs to ask, is his perception of God so very low that he equates dominating a country's military (as the US does the Pakistani military) as being akin to being God? [No, mortals are very well capable of doing what he is saying God only can do]

Tahmed writes "HP #192 Agreed that the US has a lot of influence in Pakistan. But that still does not make it the All-Powerful, All-Knowing God without whose written permission a bird may not fly or die as some of chowks world class intellectuals assume."

Once again tahmed deliberately repeats his falsehood in order to mask the crimes of the objects of his worship the US elite. Once needs to ask, is his perception of God so very low that he equates dominating a country's military (as the US does the Pakistani military) as being akin to being God? In fact he knows perfectly well that not only does the US dominate the dominant institution i.e. the military in our country, he knows that dominating this institution and then controlling affairs of consequence in our nation, which includes putting up and then pulling the rug from under dictators when they so desire for their own selfish motives and not for our nation, is something that mortals are very well capable of and it does not require the power of God to do. The reason why he throws in this God talk is because i) He worships the US elite and wants to associate them with God whatever opportunity he gets ii) he wants to invent a straw man to discredit the arguments of his opponents for the prime reason of hiding the crimes and intereferene in the affairs of other countries deliberately and by jumping the ocean as is done by the Americans and Americans alone on a global level, no other country does this on a global level whatsoever...

Regarding Hamid, did I not say he looks like Jabba the Hut, today he confirms it....Ras mian that was my advice to tahmed when he comes up with his contrived fake concern for the people of Pakistan whom he is stabbing in the back by supporting the US on every and all occassions, it was that he should leave our people the hell alone and talk about Brittany and Paris to pass his time.

HP sahib, don't be so kind and diplomatic towards this snake tahmed. You know 100% where he's coming from and where his loyalties are. Give him the hell he deserves.....

#226 Posted by Ras on January 13, 2008 6:03:14 pm

Ras,

Will it give boost to Islam or the cause(s) of Islam?

Even Micheal jackson got converted & so was his elder brother (who married a Pakistani woman). Grandson of Henry Ford became a Hindu. Religion is personal choice of all adults. What's a big deal abt it?

I know u r capable to deflecting my jab but it's obvious that u all feel that the 'sinner-sinning' gaal wud be kosher now (smiles).

Prolly she's a step away from declaring that al-Lah is the ONLY God and Prophet is the Last Messenger of al-Lah & all momins on Chowk start pirouetting......

Oh, let's say that religion is a personal matter.

Re: # 224

anil mian,

....... now you are making me real mad ! ........ all i need to do is loose fifteen pounds and i would be perfectly happy ..... if i lost twenty, i would start looking for a replacement for mrs hamidm !

...... anyway, all this speculation about who killed bb is for nought! ......... with a musharraf, zardari, shahbaz sharif government in the offing everyone will shut the f up in a few weeks and get down to business as usual ..... even the thieves of gujarat will be thrown a few bones and the droopy eyed cj will be left free to roam the streets and eat ganderis and chat from the rehris ...... imran khan will continue to chase cars and try to bite their tires - he wouldn't know what to do with it if he ever caught one ........

.........the muslims will continue to blow themselves up, and life will go on as usual until mo comes back to earth (or tahmed claims prophethood) .....

...... trust me, we pakis are like froth on a puddle of piss .........

I believe that William should use his considerale south-asian "expertise" and focus on what he knows a great deal
more about like this report below in The Nation today...

"Britney wants to embrace Islam

LONDON (Agencies) - Britney Spears is planning to marry her paparazzo lover Adnan Ghalib, and convert to his faith, Islam, it has been revealed.
According to sources, the ‘Toxic’ singer has been telling pals how much she loves Ghalib, and that she’s intent on tying the knot with him.
Britney has even been threatening to fake her own death to start a new life with him in Pakistan, reports British newspaper Daily Star. A close pal revealed that the troubled singer wants the ceremony to be conducted by a minister from the Church of Scientology, adding that her ‘whole clan is in a state of shock’.
Britney is said to have announced her ‘exciting news’ last week on a beach in Mexico, where she fled by private jet with Ghalib.
Spears, who has been married twice before, is believed to be adamant on getting hitched with Ghalib, despite several warnings from her close friends and aides.
“She’s been told it would be an act of insanity to marry this man. She says she’s doing it and she doesn’t care what anyone thinks,� the newspaper quoted a source, as saying.
“Britney has been in this position before but she can’t seem to stop herself. It’s amazing that after two failed marriages she’s about to go through it again,� the source added.
Spears has been previously married to childhood sweetheart Jason Alexander and rapper Kevin Federline."

anil: i think you are making assumptions about hamidm's height. that is exactly the kind of baseless assumptions that i bring to attention in #222.

Re: # 219

Hamidm Sahib:

"...i promise to throw my considerbale weight (198 lbs)..."

You need to loose some weight, or throw at least 40 lbs of it.

hamidm: at 198 pounds, I hope you are well over 6 feet tall - in which case you have even less of an excuse for encouraging mush (who no doubt reads chowk diligently and uses Urstruly as his nick to make himself look good compared to the opposition).

HP #192 Agreed that the US has a lot of influence in Pakistan. But that still does not make it the All-Powerful, All-Knowing God without whose written permission a bird may not fly or die as some of chowks world class intellectuals assume.

And what these intellectuals dont burden themselves with asking is:
1. Is the US influence due to some evil intent on the part of the US, or is it necessitated by conditions created in Pakistan by ambitious, lawless dictators? Why is US influence not an issue in neighboring India or Turkey or indeed any other democratic country in the world?
2. What is the nature of this US influence? The lawyers movement in Pakistan found resonance with US lawyers. Not Chinese or Russian. The US government - even the Bush government with all its faults - echoed the CJ's call for free and fair elections. Not a squeak from our Chinese friends (who pulled Musharraf's ears only when their own citizens were kidnapped by lal masjid maulvis under Mush's nose)!! Not a squeak from Russia (where Putin could probably serve as Mush's role model in terms of rigging elections and muzzling the press). And I wont even mention our "muslim brothers" who wouldnt understand issues that brave Pakistanis inspired by the example of the CJ have been fighting for the past years - issues of the rule of law, habeas corpus, freedom of the press, free and fair elections. These are issues that are understood in the US even by Bush (who is the sole head of state i know who has echoed the CJ's call for free and fair elections) because these are issues that the US revolutionaries themselves fought for two centuries ago.

.... in case, he didn't hear it :

musharraf zindabad !

oye! ai ki ho rey ay, or as they would say in the civilized world, "what the fcuk is this !"

ISLAMABAD, Jan 12: Pakistan Muslim League (Nawaz) head Shahbaz Sharif dashed to Islamabad on Saturday and returned to Lahore in the evening after holding separate meetings with an aide of President Pervez Musharraf, the Saudi ambassador and a former bureaucrat, sources told Dawn.

The sources said the PML-N president had met Brig (retd) Niaz Ahmad, who passed a message from President Musharraf on to Mr Sharif about the formation of a national government before the general election.

Sources in the PML-N said the president had suggested Shahbaz Sharif to become a part of the proposed government. The sources said the president had also proposed a “future role� for Shahbaz Sharif after the elections.




......... now, do you know whay i support musharraf ?

musharraf zindabad !

Re: # 217

... and before prophet tahmed (pbuh) gets all upset with me for supporting the dictator, i promise to throw my considerbale weight (198 lbs) behind the droopy eyed chief justice and aitizaz ahsan if they ever manages to get out of the house .....

this fuken problem is much much bigger that we realize :

KARACHI: After repeated failures in the 2007 season, some players from the Pakistan cricket team approached Dawat-e-Islami (DI) chief Maulana Ilyas Qadri to pray for them. DI Sports Committee member Sahil Raza Attari confirmed that several members of the team, including Misbahul Haq, Muhammad Hafeez, Faysal Iqbal, Humayun Farhat, and some members of A-team, along with Pakistan Sports Board Deputy Director Pervez Mughal, held a meeting with Qadri at his residence. The meeting lasted for around 45 minutes, during which Qadri prayed for the players and preached them to offer prayers regularly. The players approached Qadri prior to the start of a series against Zimbabwe, which has arrived at Karachi for a 22-day tour.

musharraf zindabad !
sheikh rashid szindabad !

..... and i am not changing my tune until i see somone else emerging to threaten them ........ so far it is all lufangebazi and mein general seems to be firmly in charge ! ....... heil musharraf !

BB was very unpopular with army: Musharraf

* President says militants think they can take over country
* Pak troops in FATA can operate better than Americans
* Calls for exhumation of Benazir’s body
* Rules out UN probe

WASHINGTON: President Pervez Musharraf, in a US magazine interview, has said late PPP chairwoman Benazir Bhutto was very unpopular with the military.

In a wide-ranging interview with Newsweek published online, he said someone who the religious lobby thought was “an unreligious person� and who was seen as a US ally, could not have been the right person to fight terrorists.

‘Militants want to take over Pakistan’: He said Pakistan’s efforts against terrorism were working in case of the Taliban, and the country was now dealing with local extremists, mostly from South Punjab, and foreigners. Baitullah Mehsood was training suicide bombers targeting political leaders. The president said militants were turning against Pakistan because they were against him. “They are against anyone who is supporting me. So therefore, they want to weaken the government, they want to weaken me. [Perhaps] they think they can take over Pakistan.�

The president said tribal agreements did not solve the problem in FATA, but insisted that negotiations must continue.

‘Pakistani troops can do better in FATA’: He said if the US undertook a unilateral operation inside Pakistan, they would “curse the day they came here�.

“I know these areas, and I know American troops. I know our troops. This is not easy.�

He said Pakistani troops were tougher and could go on roti (bread) and water, while the US troops would need chocolate. “We are totally in cooperation on the intelligence side,� he said. “But we are totally against (a military operation). We will ask for assistance from outsiders. They won’t impose their will on us.�

‘Benazir’s body should be exhumed’: The president called for the body of late Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) chairwoman Benazir Bhutto to be exhumed, as he rejected charges that the government was complicit in her assassination.

“Yes, exhume it. A hundred percent. I would like it to be exhumed,� he said. “Because I know for sure there is no bullet wound other than on the right side.� But he ruled out ordering a post-mortem without the agreement of Bhutto’s family. “It would have very big political ramifications.�

He said Bhutto’s supporters had not agreed to a post-mortem “because they know it’s a fact there is nothing wrong.�

“Everybody is trying to gain political advantage; the entire opposition is trying to take political advantage,� he said. He said the superintendent of police who was in charge of her security was “her own handpicked�.

Bhutto was told about intelligence reports of a possible attack, he said.

UN probe: “There cannot be a UN investigation,� Musharraf told Newsweek. “There are not two or three countries involved. Why should there be a UN investigation? This is ridiculous.� The president said he was ready to work with the PPP if they won the February general elections. “I can work with anyone,� he said. agencies

shouldn't the army of allah's chosen people be, I don't know, freeing up kashmir from hindoo occupation or something?

Troops deployed at flour mills

Govt reluctant to shut supplies to Afghanistan
Naqi Akbar
Lahore - The government is planning to rationalise the flour supplies to Afghanistan on government-to-government basis despite domestic supply pressures. Meanwhile, the Rangers are gradually taking over the flour mills clusters in Punjab with 10 out of 34 mills already put under the vigil of the paramilitary forces.
The flour supply lines, throughout the country in general and in Lahore in particular, remained short of demand, promoting brawls among the people lining up for flour bags near trucks that too were few this Sunday.

Re: # 213

I think the the first thing that has fallen flat on its face is this "payroll" theory, right after our fouj's glorious engagement in the WOT. Clearly naPak fouj is on CIAs payroll and tries to prove itself more loyal than the king, even killing school children if it has to. But why those, who according to you are on the napak fouj's payroll or that of CIAs are not just taking what their price is and sit down. If global colonialism is paying billions to the napak fouj for the serveices rendered then why can't it spend just a couple of hundered million to buy off who sell themselves for a payroll?


Having said that, there is no denying that there are moulvis on CIAs payroll as well e.g. whole of jamat-e-islami, moulvi fuzla, and other sirkari moulvis who were playing the part of "ooooh that vicious opposition" in the key club that this m/f dictator has been running for the past 8 years.

I think it is self-deceiting and self-defeating to mix up ordinary pakistani citizen with these charlatans.

I"f you remeber Na Pak fouj and their media was reporting fath-e-mubeen until the mid day December 16, 1971."

I am not supporting the Pak army neither do I support their mullah created by the army as most of them have been on the ISI payroll for years.
It was you who believed the myth of Fateh e mobeen before the 16th dec. No one in my family did and no one in Sindh believed that. You were ignorant then and you are ignorant now. You oppose the army and then turn around and support the people the army created.

You are one of the useful idiots that the army has all over the Pakistani society!

And btw, Don't quote Abbass athar from Express and make it look like your comments!

Re: # 211

I do not think that this scenario is possible anymore. Everybody in the civilized world is now of the opinion that the neo-colonials can be brought down to their knees. I think, in the next couple of years they will try to cut their loses and make the best out of hopeless war. The moral of their population is now drown the drain; this despite their propaganda machinery injecting them with a fear pill 24/7 non stop.

It is human psychology that when they see a weaker party being pummeled mercilessly, even though being wrong, they start siding with it.

Re: # 203

Urstruly,

You seem to be a sincere, decent chap who feels deeply and rightfully so offended but seem to lack the understanding or repercussions of violence.

These bring it on monkeys had no qualms of incinerating more than 50million people of their own (WW I &II), what makes u think they will blink for a second when its our turn? Do not be fooled by small and meaningless victories. Developed nations along with the rest of wannabes will not tolerate a bigger Taliban problem. Before that ever happens they will exterminate the root problem. And tell u what, there will be nobody out their to oppose or condole with the deceased.

Re: # 207 SR

yes thick plotens

Re: # 202

HP Sahib,

You have answered your own question. All the top posts are taken by PPP workers and stalwarts. And like Fatima Bhutto I too pray that PPP has seen the end of its rule by hereditery rights.

Re: # 204

you seem like a sensible person, what has gotten into you, supporting these losers. If you remeber Na Pak fouj and their media was reporting fath-e-mubeen until the mid day December 16, 1971. Do you remeber that desolate area? The politics over there is ailing the "new pakistan" like a cancer to this day.

Whodunit

Okay, I've been following all the theories and leads about who was behind getting rid of BB... So far no one seems to have mentioned the REAL culprits, although masadi has come a bit closer than the others. zeemax and urstruly are also on the right track, but they still have some way to go... then we have the rest of the pack, running like a herd of blind zeebras, each touting his/her favorite suspects ... although the Parsi angle could have some merit to it...

Don't believe any of the kooks and cranks or their theories when the truth is as obvious as the hooters on Dolly Parton.

The killers of Princess Pinky are the same evil gang who murdered Princess Diana.

It was done by the Illuminati ... at the behest of Prince Phillip, the Duke of Windsor.

Plain and simple. Yes, that's right. The Freemasons have their filthy paw-prints all over the crime scene.

What? Don't believe me? Then see the following for yourself:

These first three skits are just a prepration for the masterpiece that follows them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbZ83zF3jLU&feature=related
http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXLZR8pliLQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omtkqmaS3o A

Having watched the above three skits you are now ready for the comprehensive "research study" that gives "absolute convincing proof"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsDNoSQBAC8&feature=related

If you followed all that, you will naturally now be convinced that BB was done in by them also.

...SR

Interesting spin on this saga.....

http://www.thestate.com/135/story/282678.html


New reports only deepen controversy surrounding Bhutto’s assassination

By SAEED SHAH AND JONATHAN S. LANDAY - McClatchy Newspapers

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Two new reports on the assassination last month of Pakistani opposition leader Benazir Bhutto suggest that the killing may have been an ambitious plot rather than an isolated act of violence and that the government of President Pervez Musharraf knows far more than it has admitted about the murder.

A police officer who witnessed the assassination said that a mysterious crowd stopped Bhutto’s car that day, moving her to emerge through the sunroof. And a document has surfaced in the Pakistani news media that contradicts the government’s version of her death and contains details on the pistol and the suicide bomb used in the murder.

The witness was Ishtiaq Hussain Shah of the Rawalpindi police. As Bhutto’s car headed onto Rawalpindi’s Liaquat Road after an election rally Dec. 27, a crowd appeared from nowhere and stopped the motorcade, shouting slogans of her Pakistan Peoples Party and waving party banners, according to his account.

Bhutto, apparently thinking she was greeting her supporters, emerged through the sunroof of the bulletproof car to wave.

It was Shah’s job to clear the way for the motorcade. But 10 feet from where he was standing, a man in the crowd wearing a jacket and sunglasses raised his arm and shot at the former prime minister.

“I jumped to overpower him,� the deputy police superintendent said later. “A mighty explosion took place soon afterwards.�

Shah suffered multiple injuries and is recuperating in a Rawalpindi military hospital, guarded by agents of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence directorate.

Who organized the crowd is only one of the mysteries two weeks after the assassination.

“I don’t know who they were or from where they came,� the Rawalpindi officer told Dawn newspaper. “They just appeared on the road.�

The second report emerged in the Pakistani media, with detailed information about the pistol and bomb. It rejects the government’s conclusion that Bhutto died when the force of the suicide blast threw her head against the sunroof lever of her car. Such an impact couldn’t have fractured her skull, it said. The government refused to confirm the report’s authenticity, but a security official verified it to McClatchy. He spoke only on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject.

According to the report, a pistol made by Norinco, a Chinese brand, was recovered from the scene, with the lot number 311-90. An MUV-2 triggering mechanism for the bomb also was found, as had been used in 15 previous suicide bombings in Pakistan, with the same lot number and factory code.

“It is a clear indicator that the same terrorist group is involved in almost all these incidents,� concluded the report, which was quoted at length in the Pakistani daily newspaper The News.

Another mystery of the case is why so valuable a report has been buried. Among its other conclusions: Bhutto’s assassin, after shooting her, detonated his own suicide belt. No ambulance was called, and it took 25 minutes to get her to the hospital, only two miles from the scene.

Bhutto, and her security adviser Rehman Malik, had complained repeatedly that she was given inadequate official security, including mobile phone jammers that didn’t work and less than the four-vehicle escort that she thought was needed to protect the four corners of her car.

In an e-mail to her U.S. lobbyist, Mark Siegel, in late October, Bhutto wrote that if anything happened to her “I would hold Musharraf responsible,� in addition to four individuals she named as plotting to kill her in a letter sent to Musharraf on Oct. 16.

There was no security cordon around Bhutto — who had escaped a suicide bombing attack Oct. 18, the day she returned to Pakistan from self-imposed exile abroad — as she left the park in Rawalpindi. The crime scene was cleared immediately and hosed down, destroying vital evidence. Doctors at the hospital where she was taken, who announced the night it happened that she’d died of bullet wounds to the head and neck, changed their story the next day. There was no autopsy.

Musharraf’s government has stuck to its explanation that Bhutto died when she hit her head on the sunroof’s lever after the bomb went off, despite the emergence of several videos that show the gunman firing, then Bhutto disappearing into her vehicle before the blast. Officials also turned up what they said was a transcript of a telephone conversation between the supposed masterminds — militant Islamists allied with the Taliban — congratulating each other, the next day.

Scotland Yard detectives, whom Musharraf called in under pressure from home and abroad, have been told that they’re to investigate only the cause of death, not the killer’s identity. “Providing clarity regarding

‘The precise cause of Ms. Bhutto’s death’ is said to be the principal purpose of the deployment,� said Aidan Liddle, a spokesman for the British High Commission in Islamabad.

To many in Pakistan, it all raises questions about whether the government was complicit in the assassination. To others, it points at the very least to a concerted attempt to hide the massive extent of a security failure.

Bhutto’s own private-security arrangements seemed poor, chaotic and amateurish. Armored cars are not fitted with sunroofs. Hers was modified in Karachi against all safety advice, according to a security company that operates in that city but spoke only on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject. After Bhutto’s death, her husband made the startling revelation that she’d been guarded by men he’d met in prison.

“Both the state and the internal security of the Pakistan Peoples Party failed miserably,� said Masood Sharif Khattak, who was the head of the Intelligence Bureau, Pakistan’s top civilian intelligence agency, while Bhutto was prime minister and now is retired. “But state responsibility (for her security) stands first and foremost.�

“The fact that there are so many suicide bombings taking place in the country, and the security and intelligence apparatus is unable to prevent them, only leads to one conclusion: The jihadists have enablers within the system that allow them to do their stuff,� said Kamran Bokhari of Strategic Forecasting, a consultancy based in Austin, Texas.

“We’re not talking high-level officials, just people at midlevel, but mostly junior, who could provide them with logistics to operate.�

Musharraf has denied that government agencies are involved at any level.

One of the most widely suspected forces behind Bhutto’s assassination, al-Qaida, hasn’t claimed responsibility. The Pakistani militant whom the government has blamed, Baitullah Mehsud, has denied it. Mehsud is a 34-year-old tribal leader in the lawless Waziristan region, in the northwest, who’s emerged as the leader of Pakistan’s version of the Taliban.

Dr. Farzana Shaikh, associate fellow at the Royal Institute of International Affairs in London, said: “If they (al-Qaida) are intent on weakening Musharraf and his regime, they could do no better than this. For them to simply leave room open for speculation, much of which has centered on government complicity, would be a very clever move.�

“That people are willing to believe this is a very telling reflection of the declining credibility of the Musharraf regime.�

RED ALERT FOR ALL K's - especially those in Lahore.

hamidm - cancel pakistans trip.

http://www.express.com.pk/epaper/PoPupwindow.aspx?newsID=1100331392& ; ;Issue=NP_LHE&Date=20080113

The Swat issue is in the army control. They created it, nurtured it, and when they wish it will close out. Besides that Swat has no influence on Pakistani politics it is a desolate area with little population. The havyoons hopes of turning Swat into some national campaign are nothing more than pipe dreams. Their hallucination would never stop.

Re: # 198

yes, i must admit that, since the day na pak fouj has "reformed" the media, the quality of news have improved exponentially, and so is the performance of fouj in swat etc. Now no day goes by without the news of the glorious victories of our fouj. So the real culprits were not swatis but our media who was hell bent on defeating fouj.

As far as rest of the world bombing the hawayoon is concerned, that "bring it on" monkey had had his day with "shock and awe". Their propaganda machinery may still show that supermen are stopping raging trains but rest of the world knows very well that they have been humbled into being bheegi billi.

#201

Zardari is not a Bhutto and Amin Fahim is not a Bhutto.Raza Rabbani is not a Bhutto and Aitzaz Ahsan is not a Bhutto. They are the new leaders of the Party.

The Bhutto days of the party are over despite some desperate attempts Zardari.

Re: # 199

HP Sahib,

PPP has many important financiers, Ishtiaq Baig is just one of them. As for the hierarchy, is he a Bhutto? If not, then he is nothing.

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"This Ishtiaq Baig is a newbie wannabe, he has no standing in PPP or politics for that matter. "

You need to see how the message is sent out through Jang. The Baigs are important financiers of the PPP. I guess you don't know where they are in the PPP hierarchy!

Re: # 194

Urstruly Sahib,

There is a famous saying in Urdu "Jub geedar ke moth aathee hai tho sheher ke thuraf bhagtha hai" Last I heard most of the bhagora huwayoon brigade was headed towards the cities. And what happened to these valiant soldiers in Swat? Did they not get their ass whipped and handed on a platter? Mind you, posting threats on internet websites is a crime punishable by internment in Gitmo bay. Having said that,take this as a friendly advise, until now it was the Pakistan army responsible for controlling the situation. These were the good guys. Fear the day when rest of the world decides enough is enough and they bomb all huwayoon into oblivion.

"This m/f dictator had the galls to call Chief Justice a terrorsit symapthizer. So now there you have it. Suck it up. Now situation has come to a point where name calling has lost its meaning. The schism in the society has erased all the gray areas."

I can agree with this part. The schism is deep and so is the distrust. All these elements would lead to disastrous confrontation between the people and the army. And at this time I look forward to it.
I have said it all along that without the participation of the people from the smaller provinces, Pakistan will never see democracy. I see that people from the smaller provinces are coming together on issues. Even a majority of Punjabis are gaining awareness that it is the army that is the problem; like the people from Sindh and Balochistan always believed.

Though there are some serious issues of Pakistan integrity still unresolved. The new political leadership, if at all emerges at the national level, would have to make new commitment with the people and show the kind of resistance that Pakistani have never seen in the past form the civilian politicians.
Pakistan needs Aitzaz Ahsan to be in Sindh.

People zeemax (for now) has a point here zihadi's have nothing to gain from whacking bb, a compromise would have been made easily. I don't think its my boy mushy either...

Re: # 192

Yaar Zeemax payaan,

This Ishtiaq Baig is a newbie wannabe, he has no standing in PPP or politics for that matter. He is only good in taking photographs, his real profession.

Re: # 186

"But we have Pakistan which consists of these 2% kanjars, and there are intermarriages, and relationships."

This is the saddest part. When time was on their side these 2% kanjars used to refer to us as "inn haramzadon ko ziada munh nahin lagana chahiyaya....". And now tides have turned.

MOst of the kanjars in their arrogance still think that all that that is happening in Pakistan is reversible and things will go back to "normal" just as they kill each and everyone of the citizens of Pakistan who has ever raised a voice. They are so sadly mistaken.

Re: # 182

{Despite 100% support from West and US people of Pakistan have made "monkeys" out of them.}

Urstruly,

Why bring Andrew Symonds into this discussion? Another racist attack on another minority.

Zeemax post #1 and others.

The idea that the US is somehow involved in the BB assassination is floated by the PPP itself. Please read this article by Ishtiaq Baig, a Karachi Industrialist, Benazir confidant and PPP financier besides being a Senator. He opines that Benazir came to Pakistan under a US sponsored deal to turn the army government in to a civilian government. He implies that she was guaranteed safety by the US government. Read the article it is interesting. He wrote about many other things too.
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jan2008-daily/10-01-2008/col5.htm

It appears that when BB saw the ground situation and realized that she would not be able to work with the Army, she lost her value to the US. Then people close to the army assassinated her and the US turned a blind eye.

My idea is that since the US after BB has no clear choice to team up with Musharaf to make this army regime look like a civilian regime, US has no interest in elections in Pakistan anymore. So the elections are now an exercise in futility and possibly would not happen. Or if they do, Qatal league again would emerge winners. No matter how mysterious those results may appear, the US would accept the election results.

PPP is going through its own crisis now. Asif Zardari, Amin Fahinm and a few leaders from Punjab still want to work with the army but they have serious resistance in the rank and file that is supporting the hardliners such as Raza Rabbani and his Sindhi supporters.

Tahmed,

The US is the main financier and supplier of the arms for Pakistan. So the US has a deep imprint on many things that happen in Pakistan. Ignoring the reality that US has considerable influence in Pakistan is not the right thing.

Any issue in Pakistan that deals with the Army, economy or the WOT would have US hand behind lots of policy moves.

Re: # 189

"How many lawyers are Jihadi, how many PPP workers are jihadi and how many laborers are jihadi?"

Good questions. But one mustr also ask how they are being trated by the najaiz aulaad of East India Company. They are being treated as none other but terrorists as well. This m/f dictator had the galls to call Chief Justice a terrorsit symapthizer. So now there you have it. Suck it up. Now situation has come to a point where name calling has lost its meaning. The schism in the society has erased all the gray areas.

Re: # 187 zeena

It is not just the fouj, but Pakistani quom is also guilty of a horrendous crime i.e. keeping quiet when school children were being mercilessly massacred. The law of nature is very simple, when you do not look after others kids , no one will look after your kids eithter. What really adds to the inhumanity of the crime is that most of those massacred in Islamabad were yateem kids. Our religion even frowns upon as simple a thing as just shoving a yateem; but we crossed all limits and murdered them. No one stood up for those innocent kids, and now no kid in Pakistan is safe.

"crying hoarse at the time of the Jamia Hafsa siege that if there's violence here, Pakistan will blow up."

I find it ridiculous to believe that a suicide bomber a week agenda will blow up Pakistan. That are acts of desperate people if they are people at all. Mostly they are janwar and Havyoon.

It will actually end up blowing the jihadi and suicide bombers supporters in the army.

Pakistan is facing a serious backlash from the moderate Pakistanis. How many lawyers are Jihadi, how many PPP workers are jihadi and how many laborers are jihadi? they are the people now fighting against the army rule and not the Jihadis. Jihadi game of one suicide bomber a week is clearly designed to help the army get more control of the country in the law and order name.

Re: # 158

{I resent this attempt at painting me as some sort of a sectarian.}

Jhoot bolay kuwa katay, kalay kuway (Altaf Hussein) sey daryo...

#184 zeemax
Re: zeemax ji

And if you recall I was the one crying and screaming out loud along with you over Jamia Hifza's issues and their innocent brutal murders and I also predicted the samethings then.....

There were other ways to handle those issues diplomatically ,but, again Pak army only knows innocent brutal killings............and now, the consequences of all those rest of the Pakis got to face.....

Urstruly,

Yes there was no compromise for 60 years, but now the kanjars are on the run.

There's still a choice - take it, or leave it.

If it is violence, the kanjars can never match the other side's violence. Regardless if they bring in F-16s or B-2s.

But we have Pakistan which consists of these 2% kanjars, and there are intermarriages, and relationships.

If they chose, we can retain those. But only if they give up. If they still chose to fight, then it will be very bad.

wow!

William Dalrymple's critical thinking is beyond any doubts. he's at his best!

Urstruly,

If you recall It was I who was crying hoarse at the time of the Jamia Hafsa siege that if there's violence here, Pakistan will blow up. I had exactly pointed to Swat and Waziristan. It happened. I had wished Pakistan would not be so stupid.

But it is the way of the elite to discount, to trivialize, to belittle, to dream along in their arrogance that 'we killed them all'.

They only killed the ones in Jamia Hafsa.

That's all I'm going to say for the moment.

Re: # 180 zeemax

If 60 years were not enough to make a compromise, then what makes you think that it can be done now. I think retribution and not compromise is written on the wall. Kanjars do have the fouj on their side, which is pretty miserable these days. Despite 100% support from West and US people of Pakistan have made monkeys out of them.

Re: # 180 zeemax

If 60 years were not enough to make a compromise, then what makes you think that it can be done now. I think retribution and not compromise is written on the wall. Kanjars do have the fouj on their side, which is pretty miserable these days. Despite 100% support from West and US people of Pakistan have made monkeys out of them.

#178 Posted by tahmed32,

tahmed32, this is neither Nazi Germany, nor Imperial Japan.

This is Islam.

You still haven't seen it's power, and I'm amazed you haven't.

#177 Posted by Urstruly,

Sigh ... yes Urstruly ... this is correct. But as I said, I want a compromise.

Otherwise, I can see the guillotine parks as you do too. I have been writing about this since Feb 2007.

There is absolutely no way that the kanjars can resist the Islamic movement in Pakistan.

I have to leave the internet now and do some real things. My best wishes to everyone on this board on this fine Sunday, and may you all live to see your great-great-grandchildren prosper in a better world than today, and may anyone disagreeing with me today on anything look back and realize the error of your ways. :-)

#174 zeemax: how can you take seriously someone who goes from one fashion statement (or political statement or whatever), i.e. from tank tops, to another i.e. burqa?


Even the more dangerous forms - i.e. suicide bombings, plane hijackings - are no existential threats to civilization of the kind that Nazi Germany ir Imperial Japan was, for example. They only cause suffering to innocent people who happen to be near them.

btw, the only decent form of dress is one that does not draw attention to the dress or to the wearer - and this friend of yours is merely switching her tactics (i.e. from tank tops to burqa) at drawing attention to her. =

Re: # 173

"It doesn't make them non-Pakistanis. "

Sure it does- whenever it suits their agenda it does. Remember, Islamabad school massacre, where thsi corrupt, prowestern, oppressive elite for months raised hue and cry that the mosque is full of foreign terrorists and how after the massacre they were only able to produce one corpse as an evidence of foreign fighters; and whose body was one day later, claimed by his parents who have been Pakistani citizens since forever.

La'anat on their face too who wee claiming that school girls must be killed because they were illegally occupying government property? and how no m/f even cared to apologize when supreme court decalred that the mosque and madrassa both were legally and properly built and ordered this government of vicious dictator to rebuild the whole premises and not only that barred government from using the property for any other use. Big la'anat on all of them for they have committed the ultimate crime of killing innocent children.

You know whet? now society have stopped giving a fine fukk to the issue of who is right and wrong. An existential struggle but what is good in pakistan has begun with what is etrnally evil in Pkistan i.e. a pro-western, corrupt, oppressive elite - the najaiz aulaad of east india company.

#167 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Ijaz I will send you the complete footage of the four shots but I will have to retrieve it. I think it was only on Sky News.

Regards.

#167 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Ijaz I will send you the complete footage of the four shots but I will have to retrieve it. I think it was only on Sky News.

Regards.

#171 Posted by tahmed32,

You have no idea how immensely powerful this movement is. The lady friend I wrote about who used to go around in tank tops and Jeans with a bare mid-riff, now wears a Burqa.

So please do not trivialize. Thanks.

#168 Posted by ana,

Sure ana so you're now a Canadian. That's fine.

And you got me wrong on what I taught you.

We are ALL Pakistanis, with ethnic groups. If I refer to a Christian assassin who is perfect, I could have said a Baluch assassin. It is just identifying the assassin and where he comes from. That's all.

It doesn't make them non-Pakistanis.

It was a good article....
And showing some people that it is not necessary that those who "engage" masses really care for masses....
And not every one who criticizes a feudalist woman has to be a bourgeois bastard...
An interesting contrary article was from NFP who thinks that BB was hated because of her love for masses....
You know that BS theme of conservative middle class vs ordinary folk.....
With BB being true voice of the down trodden…..
Materialistic determinism….
History unfolding in a logical pattern where middle class has become instrument of resisting “progressive� march towards self destruction of capitalism….
Blah blah blah…..

zeemax #169 dont get mad at me if i remind you that those "who give up ALL for Islam." in fact need Dr. Sohail's services if they are serious and think that God is some kind of a Pakistani dictator who needs to be worshipped by his chamchas. And if they are not serious - then they are fakes who are abusing people's religious emotions to promote their self-interest.

#168 Posted by ana,

ana, I simply hate it when people bracket Pakistanis into the buckets of minorities or ethnicities and such. That breeds discrimination. We're all Pakistanis.

How could I ever forget that it was David Fredericks who taught me the crooning of Englebert Humperdinck, or the Ivan of the 'In Crowd' who taught me Hard Rock guitar of Deep Purple.

But I do apologize if I hurt anyone's sensitivities. If there's anything I hate, this is it.

#160 Posted by hamidm2,

Brother hamidm, I have known exactly the same people too ... who give up ALL for Islam. I had written once about that greatly gifted painter friend of mine who used to go around in Jeans and Tank tops but then stopped painting animate objects and took to calligraphy instead of Qura'an Sura'as. Last time she met me, she said she wanted to paint the 99 names of Allah as noone has ever done before. I believe her. She will.

But I'm not into any dark forces here. I want a compromise. Only then will everyone live happily ever after.

As for me, I will join you anytime on the mile strip if things get really bad.

Promise?

What I have a problem with Zeemax is you assuming what I know over my questioning what you know. And believe me, you know nothing about what I think about those bomber cowards.

But I'll tell you what. you have taught me something valuable today. You have taught me that if Christians are Pakistanis, they do not have to be referred to as Pakistani Christian assassins. They can be referred to as religious extremists, just as our fellow Muslim assassins. Be they the effin' best, or not. Or just plain murderers. No need to bring their faith (hypocritical or not) into it. . . that's it. . . Ah, I like that. I like just being referred to as a Pakistani, as do probably the Christian assassins except that I'm not one anymore, so there goes that idea. . .

The footage I have begins 8 seconds before the shooting and ends well after the suicide blast. Total lenght is 28 seconds.

#159 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Ijaz, there were four, and not three shots by the shooter. The earlier footage showed only three shots, but there's another one which shows four ... by the same shooter. Clear four shots. The first one had a pause, and the footage you have seen is after the pause.

None of those shots hit Benazir's head.

It was a decoy. A cue. It was a sniper who got her, and that's corroborated by the washing of the scene and destruction of evidence so that those four bullets will never be found to determine those were the ones which penetrated her skull and exited; no postmortem to determine the projectile path and angle, and no evidence of how that 5x3cm hole opened in her skull with a .30 calibre Chinese TT pistol which was seen on footage as well as collected from the scene.

PPP claims PTV has footage of suspected persons’ escape

* Awan reiterates demand for UN probe into Benazir’s murder

Staff Report

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) on Friday claimed that state-run Pakistan Television (PTV) had footage in which some people were shown helping suspected persons escape from the crime scene after the December 27 assassination of PPP chairwoman Benazir Bhutto.

PPP Finance Secretary Babar Awan alleged in a news conference here that the government was trying to keep the footage secret and had not shared it with the Scotland Yard team probing Benazir’s assassination. “We (the PPP) demand that the footage be released to national and international TV channels for broadcast,� he said. He said the footage could help investigators identify the real perpetrators of the killing.

Awan, who is also legal counsel for the late PPP chairwoman and her husband Asif Ali Zardari, said the government did not seem serious about the murder probe as it had not even submitted the incident’s challan to the court yet, adding that police is bound to submit the challan along with initial investigation reports within 14 days of an incident. He alleged that the government had prompted “artificial food riots� because of the flour shortage in order to detract people’s attention from real issues. He demanded the investigation be focused on the motive behind Benazir’s killing and the preparation, abetment, actual occurrence, screening of offenders, destruction of evidence and protection of the culprits.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C01%5C12%5Cstory_ 12-1-2008_pg7_52

#159 guns dont kill people. people do. and the musharraf government stands condemned in history for not protecting BB while musharraf himself hides his hide in the green zone.

#156 Posted by ana,

I was talking about professional assassins, not any community.

Like you guys talk about the suicide bombers that oh ... these must be those crazed tribals, when you don't know how many communities they come from.

But I'll tell you this, the best come from Swat. They have blue eyes.

In the same manner, the best professional assassins are Christians in Pakistan, just as the Irish are in the rest of the world.

Do you have a problem with that?

#160

Jesus Rocks!!
Hamidm Saves...Zeemax!!

#158 zeemax: I am not painting christians as a minority - they are a minority. if you dont believe me, stand on a roadside somewhere in Pakistan and ask the passers-by if they are christian, making sure you tally the results on a notebook. soon you will have a crowd around you wondering where the baoo came from....but I digress.

OK, just trying to be funny. lighten up. i am not trying to paint you as anything - just reminding you to stay focussed on the real terrorists (the ones hiding in caves in south waziristan or in the green zone in rawalpindi).

I love Hazrat Jesus and Bibi Maryam (referred to more often in the Quran than any other female, and in the most tender of terms, I may add). And I am sure you do too. :-)

Re: # 155

zeemax,

..... i know better people who have crossed over to the dark side ........ i know of convent educated sons and daughters who have left their parents, their siblings, their wives and their children to join the forces of darkness like the tableeghi jamaat ..... i know a ivy league graduate who said goodbye to his cousins telling them that he would not be seeing them any more since they were non-mehrams ...... i know a guy who drives a mercedes 500S but threw out all the furnitiure in his house and now his guests sit on the floor, eating with their fingers and burping like the followers of some bedouin prophet ........

........ it can happen, so be careful ...... you are on a slippery slope .......

OK Back to theorising.
The pistol used was a 7.62 mm or .303" chinese automatic weapon. Unlike the Colt or Walther it has a high velocity bullet and longer range. It is smaller in size and hence easy to conceal. Having seen the original camera video and run it from frame to frame and worked on layers in photoshop, as well as used the sound wave frequency on the digital player, there were three pistol shots and then a bang. I posted the three best pics on chowk. The second Pic has her hair fluttering.In two of the cases, BBs Hair and Duppatta fluttered and then she fell. Marks of one of the bullet can still be seen across the road between two windows of a double story building. Police say, they found a used bullet near the traffic signal on Murree Road.

As I opined earlier, the big wound on the right is probably because the bullet hit at a tangent and entry/exit points were close by.

These bullets can be made more lethal by sawing off their tip or putting a cross. They become what is called DUM DUM. As they enter and spin, their wake tears tissues, rotates them and make a big exit hole. They are banned under Geneva Convention.
If there was another shooter, the sound does not appear. If he used a silencer, then he could not use a sniper rifle, because its bullet breaks the sound barrier and there is a loud sound. Hence probability of another shooter lies only with a high velocity pistol like a mauser plus a Silencer. Even in this case. the range cannot be more than 50 yards.

As for me, I rule out a second shooter. I have no doubt that the clean shaven man got his target and the suicide bomber his.

#153 Posted by tahmed32,

Why do you want to exclude the Christians? Are they not Pakistanis? When I mentioned Christians, it was in the same breath as anyone else. It is YOU Sir, who is painting Christians as a minority while I don't. They are my best friends and just like Punjabi or Pashtuns or any other. I don't regard them as a minority - period. Never thought of them as one till you guys point it out. There never was a bigger Hero of Pakistan than Cecil Chaudhry in war, or the Benjamin Sisters in culture/music scene. Do you think I don't know how valuable the Christians are to Pakistan?

I resent this attempt at painting me as some sort of a sectarian.

Re: # 154


The way Mush tried to paint the assasination with lever theory is a give away . Also, his blaming BB for her assasination is also a give away that he was sure happy with it!!


I feel that Mush had some deal with the ex-ISI Generals who are actually the middle men for Talibani jirgas, Al-Qaeda leaders and the existing Pak Army!!! Mush also benefitted from the assasination by avenging the humilaition of being forced to announce elections and stepping down as Army chief due to unrelenting pressure by BB.
I am dead sure that this is a Hamid Gul conceived operation conducted by Al Qaeda with a go ahead by Mush.

zeemax:

I am not in Lahore right now. Are you?

What you have described about the Defense Thana is not beyond the realm of disbelief, afterall, corruption is rampant, but I still would not have taken this to the so-called logical conclusion that you did. Nor do I buy the "detail" or "fact" that the "Christian assasins" are the best.

Anyway, I have to go to work now. . .


And no, Zeemax, I did not go to a convent school called St. Joseph's. I went to a school in Lahore where the majority of the students were Muslim. And I knew Muslim girls I could call my best friends. Where was the moralizing in what I said earlier? You can spin your conspiracies but when I tell you that I know Christians who have been beaten up in Lahore for saying amongst a group of Muslims that Jesus is the son of God, you accuse me of moralizing and call me a bimbo? Wah ji wah. My facts make me an effin' bimbo, and yours make you the king of the hill. That is truly frightening. . . .

Good luck in your world.

#149 Posted by hamidm2,

Thanks for the advice my friend hamidm2, which is certainly sincere as I can see.

I am not heading into any darkness. In fact I'm thinking of vacationing in Aacapulco while Pakistan is burning, because I can't prevent that happening.

I'm smarter than you think.

On top of that - Your president goes on international TV and announces that it's her own fault she was killed... just like he blamed women being raped as their own plan to get canadian visa....

And now you want 'dignity'?... ha ha...

zeemax: Far be it from me to ruin beautiful friendships on chowk (and ijazgul is a fine fellow, and although i have reservations about PM on certain issues as he well knows). but excuse me - you dragged in the christians into the arena. As a member of the majority community in Pakistan, I think i did the right thing in bringing this to your attention.

and an assassin is an assassin. Dont lose focus - the real demons facing Pakistan are the forces of lawlessness (whether hiding in caves in south waziristan or in green zones in Rawalpindi/Pakistan. When you point to innocent Pakistanis, these terrorists win.

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#142 Posted by ana,

Blasphemy laws apply not only to Muhammad but to Yassuh Masih as well.

But guess you didn't know that.

So stop your effing moralizing. You know nothing about Islam and are just a bimbo from St Joseph's Convent.

#137 Posted by tahmed32,

There are Punjabi assassins, and Pashtuns, and Urdu-speaking, But the best are the Christians ... totally professional, and deliver. That's all I said.

Please don't distort nor threaten my relationship with people like PM and Ijaz_Gul on Chowk.

ana may think what she likes. I don't know her and have never interacted with her, and I don't care. But the former two are my great friends and I wish you would not jeopardize my relationship with them over a simple fact.

zeemax,

... calm down ! .......... you are letting your new found love with your faith get in the way of decency and plain old common sense ........ all these 'baazari' consipiracy theories are beneath a man of your upbringing and education ......... don't follow in the path of osama and ayman - you are dangerously close to crossing over to the dark side .......

ana #142 I was just trying to be funny (no match for hamidm though I admit, and certainly no match for the unintentionaly funny ones on chowk). Welcome back to chowk after a long absence which I am sure was spent doing good works. :-)

#132 Posted by hamidm2,

Neither does this one.

#138 kamath: Given the disgusting attitude towards minorities in India - including things that Pakistanis dont do, like forming mobs to attack minorities in their homes - by your kind of hindu chauvinists, your post is hypocritical.

Reflect on that, and once you have realized your problem, then come back and talk about Pakistan.

#129 Posted by hamidm2,

This post does not deserve a response.

#128 Posted by ana,

ana, if you don't believe me, I suggest you go to the Defense Thana in Lahore and try to file a fictitious FIR against any person, for cheating you out of money or something like that. Then watch out when some ASI appoaches you. He will ask you what do you want by filing an FIR? You will say you want your money back. Then he will tell you filing an FIR will just take you through courts and magistrates, and if you really want your money back, talk to him.

The rest will come later. They will actually get anyone killed for you if you pay them enough. And they don't do it themselves. They have sub-contractors, and the top is a Christian gang. They're really good.

This is the truth. Cross my heart and hope to die.

Re: # 126

ahmedmadani sahib,

When God was allocating brain cells u seem to have skipped the line for a few minutes and I mean this with all due respect. The Z man dangles the MQM bone and u have to lunge for it? Come on bhai, have some respect for that name of yours, dont fall for these lame slants, now u have completely derailed the argument and played directly into Z plan to slant, subvert and slander. Classic Altaf Hussein style, always jumping the gun.

tahmed32:

Have you been possessed by the spirits of Geraldo Rivera, Jerry Springer, or the Grand Inquisitor in asking me that question in #133?!?

zeemax:

Your personal experience aside, and personal and professional aside, for your fellow Muslims, insinuating that a Christian could have been an assassin is dragging the community into it. I mean look what happened to a Christian village when one Christian man was wrongly accused of destroying a page from the Quran. Now that did not happen when a Muslim man desecrated it, did it? They went after just that one man. So please forgive me if I am not convinced about you NOT dragging the Christian community into this sordid mess, even if you had Christians as best friends. Details ki baat aur hai, aur fact ki baat aur hai. And for goodness sakes, Zeemax, do you still not recognize the irony or sarcasm in hamid's posts???

hamidm2:

I find that lengthy absences from Chowk are good for the soul, and one's mental health. Which would explain a lot of things here. :)

I mean trying to instigate my friend PM whom I greatly admire, over this remark of mine, is shameful at best and downright insidious at worst.

I know my mistake. I am a details man. And most people here do not like minute details or minute observations. They would rather just read the headlines or watch TV and form opinions. I mustn't talk about details, and I will not in the future.

#126 Posted by ahmedmadani,

Ahmedmadani Saheb I'm greatly pained by first your accusation on me for painting MQM with a wide brush, and now the Christian Community.

Madani Saheb, I grew up in Karachi around Pereira Bakery in Saddar, and my best friends in Karachi are ALL Christian. I went to Christian schools with Nuns and Fathers. WTF are you talking about?

All I said and maintain is that it was a professional assassin, probably hired through MQM ranks, who was a Christian, because a certain professional assassin network consisting of Christians is the best in the country.

Now why do you want to lynch me over this?

Re: # 123 Christians,"..And their contributions to Pakistan - in the fields of justice and in the field of battle - have been extraordinary given their small numbers..."

Pray tell me what did they fight for? Did they get anything in return. If I read correctly one of the bishops committed suicide protesting ill treatment of Christians in Pakistan!
Is it not true that they are one of the victims of Blasphemuy laws too!
kamath

zeemax: this is the first time i am hearing of a "christian network" in Pakistan. Dont we have enough real demons to fight in Pakistan that you have to create new ones? like i said, christians have been exemplary citizens of Pakistan.

#123 Posted by tahmed32,

tahmed Bhai I did not drag in any community at all. This assassin was not political. He was a professional. There are many professional assassins in this country but the BEST OF THEM ALL ARE A CHRISTIAN NETWORK. That's all I said. It is true. I am talking from personal experience.

hamidm #134 are you insinuating?

Re: # 131

ana,

thanks for clearing that up - i was a little worried about you ...... all those long abscences from chowk - god knows what you were up to :)

#131 ana: which of the other 9 commandments have you broken?

zeemax,

.... the guy in sun glasses had a pale complexion like the parsis ........ do you think the parsis are behind this dastardly act ..... my mother (god bless her soul) always thought that my father's bridge partner, colonel rustam kanga (ahura mazda bless his soul) was the devil incarnate ........ do you think they did it ?.......... afterall, they hold muslims responsible for wiping out their religion in persia and then ruining murree brewery .......

......... i think it is the parsis ......

hamidm2

Hai, hai! (not to be confused with yes, yes! in Japanese) Not only am I not fair-skinned enough, but also, murder is one of the ten commandments I have not broken yet. :)

Re: # 128

ana,

.... zeemax has identified you, ijaz gul and pm as the top three suspects ......... did you do it?

zeemax,

..... "They just have a professional assassination network available if you need them. " ....... those uppity christians ! ...... who would have thought that lowly street sweepers could become professional assasins in the islamic republic of pakistan ..... who said islam was not an equal opportunity employer? ..... mahybe we can also hire some hindoo bashibazouks to liberate kashmir and kerala .... arjun would make a good foot soldier for al-lah

Oh lovely, when something goes dreadfully wrong, why not go and blame the Christian community? A hired Christian assassin, my ass.

Some of you, as not entirely surprising, have some rather incredible misconceptions about the Christian community in the Punjab, let alone Pakistan. As a Christian, let me tell you first of all, that there are fair-skinned Christians in our community. Secondly, many of us are not political by choice, and many of us have stuck with the Pakistan Peoples Party, because of its supposed progressive policies, which we are still waiting for, should a suitable PPP leader head the government again.

This conspiracy is simply out there and a bunch of behooda bakwaas. I guess it is not possible that a Muslim brother from any part of Pakistan could have done this, no let's drag the "chooras" into it. I hope no one else is taking your "witchhunt" seriously.

#125 one thing we know for sure: the musharraf government was either behind this or else it proved incompetent to the point of criminal neglect in the way it handled the security provided (particularly disgusting given the way Musharraf hides his precious hide in the "green zone") and in the aftermath: a seemingly pointless rush to bury the body without a post-mortem, inane chatter from Musharraf - now making gratuitous statements calling for exhumation of the body - and Baghdad Bob Cheema.

mr Z is now in binge of speculation , first it was hired gun used by MQM , now Christian, man looked fair skinned he can not be christian , generally convert hindus mostly dark so not right. Good possiblity some body from army's fanatic believer whose batteries may be charged by mullah listening etc or just plain american with make and what not. No body will ever know is truth as all old political murders.In memory of late prime Minister arjun etc should stop this obscene / morbid curiosity. Mr. Bhutto did right not have autopsy and close chapter. Please all keep dignity of departed leader os pakistan.

My take, it was a multi-plan operation , the guy moves in , when he sees Benazir emerging from the roof, the guy or the sacrificial Lamb behind him was the plan NO 2, then this snipper , if there was one, was plan no 3,
there was another speculation, that the Bomb explosion would force Benazir to leave her Anti-Bomb veichle for a more vulnerable one, like she did in Karachi, and then she would be taken out along the route.

.....But its all conjecture so far...

#122 here is one scenario: the "movie-style assassin" was not even aware of the cloaked suicide bomber standing behind him. and what about the third man? the one, per the Nation report I provide a link to below, was actually caught alive and taken into police "custody" or "care".

Something smells rotten in the state of Denmark (or Pakistan in this case).

zeemax: please dont drag in the minority christian community - they are about the most non-political people in Pakistan. And their contributions to Pakistan - in the fields of justice and in the field of battle - have been extraordinary given their small numbers.

No his fair color does not implies him being professional or not, but his attitude


"his pictures after the shot and before the blast when every One was in a frenzied scramble, shows how coolly he is inspecting his weapon "


this does , a man after shooting someone has not lost his nerves and is as calm as it is a normal thing to do...

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#117 how does the assassins "fair color" make this a professional job? you lost me there.

But normally christians living in pakistan are not fair colored, his fair color , suggests someone from Colder climate.....someone from the Northen stretches of the country.

#114 Posted by hamidm2,

Why do always insist on mis-stating me?

Christain assassins are the very best in this field in Pakistan, and the Police regularly hires their services. There are Pushtoons available too but not that precise. They are crude.

It has nothing to do with Christians as a community. They just have a professional assassination network available if you need them. Their touts are the Punjab Police.

Whenever you hear entire families bumped off in Punjab, with no clue, you can bet it was hired Christian assassins.

Their fees range from Rs 50,000 per target upwards depending upon the difficulty of the assignment.

The man was fair colored , wearing designer black glasses and cloths, and was cool as cucumber, his pictures after the shot and before the blast when every One was in a frenzied scramble, shows how coolly he is inspecting his weapon...

.... obviously a highly trained professional

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... and please do not compare water melons with human skull. The human skull is an extremely hard shell.

Sorry but I saw that later.

Re: # 112

zeemax,

..... so you are saying the christians in pakistan are behind this ? .... they are part of bush's war against islam .... those bastards !

Re: # 107

"Amid nationwide anger over the killing of the opposition leader Benazir Bhutto and a widespread belief that the country’s military or intelligence may have been involved, the population is turning against the army for the first time.(Arjun Mian #4)

it definitely is "first time" for you -- what happened overnight -- your jag jag man man lady did not die of her own volition by the lever of her SUV sunroof....?

So Arjun man man has finally jag jag....:)

#109 Posted by ferozk,

Have you seen the gun that was in his hand? Was it a .45? Max it was a .32.

But never mind. Continue with your conversation with the monkey man over calibres of guns. I doubt if you've ever seen one, let alone fire them, and seen the recoil which each calibre makes and the steady hand which was firing it.

Did you see a recoil in the footage?

#108 Posted by ahmedmadani,

No Madani Saheb, I'm just talking about hired assassins. MQM has plenty.I'm not trying to mud MQM's name ...it's just that that guy looked extremely professional and MQM has many in their ranks. He would have done it for money alone, not for any politics of MQM.

That doesn't mean others do not have access to hired assassins, but that guy was no Pushtoon, nor Punjabi, or anything like that. He was probably a Christian. Those are the most efficient hired assassins in Pakistan. Did you know that?

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re: Arjun # 106

I agree, with you. The Colt .45 1911 was designed as the USA's (United States' Army) personal side arm for close quarter defense and was intended to put down a man cold at short ranges.

One of my college buddies was a cop and we once went plunking at watermelons with a .45 and there was no small hole in the watermelon after shooting it....there was no watermelon period!

Same result, with a rifle. Having fired rifles at ranges in the USA, the impact of a high velocity projectile will not leave a neat entry or exist would but would cause massive trauma to human tissue.

I remember a conversation with a US Army Ranger in which he explained how a Japanese soldier was cut into half by a volley of rifle fire. The rifle, I believe was the standard US Army issue - Garand.

If any one is interested in the issue, I would recommend that you Google case studies of doctors, who treated high velocity rifle fire victims during the conflict in Ireland to see what are the characteristics of a rifle wound.

Ciao

Re: # 104 I do not buy speculation. You again trying to mud name of MQM, no reason for that.There is no evidence of MQM connection even remotely.Specially in such charged atmosphere make such speculation is very irresponsible.Have good night sleep, bye

Angry Pakistanis turn against army

IT IS the most expensive - and talked about - property development in Pakistan, but few can get near it. Hidden behind barbed wire, the new state-of-the-art army headquarter to replace a garrison in Rawalpindi is costing a reputed £1 billion and will cover 2,400 acres of prime land in Islamabad, including lakes, a residential complex, schools and clinics.

Originally intended to represent the best of Pakistan, the new army HQ is now being seen as a symbol of all that is wrong with the country.

Amid nationwide anger over the killing of the opposition leader Benazir Bhutto and a widespread belief that the country’s military or intelligence may have been involved, the population is turning against the army for the first time.

From the wailing rice-pickers at Bhutto’s grave in the dusty village of Garhi Khuda Bakhsh in the southern province of Sindh to the western-educated elite sipping whisky and soda in the drawing rooms of Lahore, the message is the same: General Pervez Musharraf, the president, must go and the army must return to its barracks.

Feelings are running so high that officers have been advised not to venture into the bazaar in uniform for fear of reprisals.

For decades children in Pakistan have grown up on text-books glorifying the Pakistani army and glossing over its defeat in three wars and loss of half the country in 1971 (to become Bangladesh). When army chiefs have seized power they have generally been welcomed. The news of Musharraf’s takeover in 1999 was greeted with people handing out sweets. But none of Pakistan’s military rulers have stepped down voluntarily and Musharraf, it seems, is no different, picking an unpopular fight with the country’s judiciary when they tried to take him on.

More than 700 Pakistani soldiers have been killed in the fight in the tribal areas against militants said to be linked to Al-Qaeda, and officers admit that morale has not been so low since they lost Bangladesh in 1971.

“We’re being asked to bomb our own people and shrug it off as collateral damage,� said a Mirage pilot. “I call it killing women and children.�

#105 Posted by zeemax on January 13, 2008 2:30:13 am


A pistol round hardly makes a hole larger than pencil width.


umm...a .45 round at the distance the clean shaven man was will make one big ass hole in a human head. maybe you're thinking .22.

a high velocity sniper rifle round that hits the mark will make a big ass hole


maybe you should try your BS in unformed circles.

#87 Posted by arjun_4

a glock sniper rifle with an amazing round that didn't blow her head off as a normal rifle round would...

A pistol round hardly makes a hole larger than pencil width. The hole in Benazir's head was 5x3 cm wide in an oval shape, and her brain was spilling out, as well as she lost half of the entire blood in her body right after she fell in the car. Pistol bullets don't cause that much loss of blood. Just a trickle from the wound.

If you recall the JFK assassination, he was hit with a high-velocity sniper rifle, and it didn't blow apart his head, though it did damage one side badly. Things have moved on since then.

I suggest you watch Sherry Rahman's testimony.

#103 Posted by ahmedmadani,

Madani Saheb please read my post again. I had pointed to a professional assassin (the decoy shooter in the sunglasses) recruited from MQM and not at MQM as a political party with political motives.

You do agree MQM does have professional assassins on its rolls. Don't you? You saw many on May 12 in the video footage.

Please don't misunderstand my contention.

Re: # 78 Z man are you addicted to drugs along with alcohol to have such hullucination and hopeful dreams. As I have said before no smoking gun was found and many felt disappointed that MQM was not involved.
If MQM wanted they could have put total on BB and PPP after coming from abroad. Let little little leaders do not mess up with MQM . They can make more destruction 100 times what PPP rioter made. Note Z man MQM is very good friends and very dangerous to enemies. Altaf Hussain asked his troops and local satraps to just watch and do not react to cool down situation. If he had given green flag MQM could have hunted all rumpage makers specially in KHI with military precison. But Altaff Hussain well know for strtegic intelligence in Urban warfare kept his horse way. Please do not go on accusing MQM , what it did not do ,and Altaf shown great tolerance to allow rumpage but do not mistake as sign of weakness, it was startegic holding his troops. Hope others follow example of self restraint.

Re: # 99

tahmed32,

This obssessive infatuation with Musharraf shows your inability to appreciate and differentiate friend and foe. Its the MILITARY dummy, not Musharraf. You remove a name plate and it will be replaced by another, then again its the likes of you who believe in worshipping idols rather than institutions. Same goes for that idiot Ch Iftikhar, if supremacy of the Law and the institution was paramount then that idiot should have resigned the day he was reinstated. Then again, he too is an ignoramus driven by his rapaciouness and myopic view of life.

Re: # 87

Our dear conspiracy theory expert is referring to the esteemed Retd. General Naseer Ullah Babar aka Lal Bundar, ex-ISI Chief, ex-Interior Minister. Like his contemporary Hameed Gul, The Lal Bandar tries to compensate for the lack of brain cells with fantastic tales weaved out of some fiction book (Imran Series).

"Musharraf says:“Believe me, on the day when I arrive at the conviction that the majority of the people don’t want me any more,...I will go"

You better go sooner because the day for your conviction has already arrived" -- 77% people "don't want you anymore" -- don't wait for the other 26% -- if you want to avoid conviction.

nasah #92 this man was pulled crying and weeping out of his wardi. he was willing to wreck the supreme court and the pakistan constitution and to get people killed (on may 12, and perhaps on other occassions to) and beaten and imprisoned as he struggled to stay in his precious wardi. he will not leave his the president's job without a similar struggle in the days ahead. it wont be pretty.

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Dear writer
I wish to show you the real picture of unfortunate state, called Pakistan.

I strongly dismiss your article, you're completely wrong in your povs about Pakistan, it looks like you didn't do your homework prior to writting this twisted article with no sense , no sense at all.

I don't blame BB, NS, ZAB or any other politician for the collapse of Pakistan... Yes, I firmly believe and strongly blame Army for all the problems....Pakistanis never tasted democracy....always became hostage of cruel army....for 47 years....and yet, people have the nerves to blame BB or any other politician? Just read this....

The Pakistani nation is starving, Musharaf and his cruel army is thriving. flour crisis in Pakistan is worsening. People have to be in long lines to get one small bag of flour just for their basic needs. And the saddest thing is that 100% of Pakistan people use flour daily for their meals. It is the most essential commodity for rich and poor both. People can't survive without flour. Poor Pakistanis have been facing first sugar shortage, then gas shortage, electricity shortage and now extreme flour shortage.


So who are we blaming for all these crises of basic necessities?
Musharaf and his gang offcourse.................they have made it clear that they are the only humans in Pakistan who should their verocious needs met.......they are trying their best to discredit the basic right of poor Pakistani citizens by depriving them of food and then shelters.........they are trying their best to make sure that mushdog and his allies should govern starved nation boundlessly...when a governance fails to provide the basic needs to poor citizens then they have NO right, absolutely NO right to for the governance.........what sort of good governance is this? for God's sake, wake up.....wake up Pakistanis.

Musharaf and his allies wish every Poor Pakistani citizen to die of starvation now. First he murdered thousands of poor Pakistani citizens on streets like vegetables last year with no regrets, no regrets at all and now they have acquired a new tactics to kill more and more poors via starvation...............that is the most painful scene to see, fourteen crores of Pakistanis are suffering due to these power hungry monsters who are eradicating Pakis days in and days out.....and then filling up their big corrupt bellies by looting poor people's money to fill their unlimited needs...........

Musharaf and his bast**d allies are undermining , suppressing and oppressing the basic right of Pakistani citizens to put an end to democratic waves in Pakistan and they're not letting go of any golden opportunity to make hostage all those poor and innocent Pakistani citizens to meet their own vicious needs.........to make sure that their families are superior and they are not in those lines to beg for ,"FLOUR".....................

These monsters are living lavishly and for their lavish needs poor Pakistanis got to pay over the things that they don't even know what they did? Isn't it tragic? Isn't it sad enough to make us cry?
If NOT then we're not humans, we're worst than these blood sucker leaches and vultchers who call themselves Paki leaders.................rulers....

These harami rulers are sucking poor Pakis blood for their own extremely high expenditures and cause these inflations and recessions...........and then these harrammis borrow more and more money from central bank , much more than their budget..........now their banks are just empty cans with some echos of poverty, some poverty stricken screams and they're not listening b/c they don't want to listen to those tortured voices who are the reason that they are calling themselves ,"RULERS"....RULERS of those who are starving from hunger..........sigh*
This Pakistani turmoil is in it's height, and the greatest tragedy is that there seems no end to the sufferings of Poor Pakistani citizens................resulting in mental anguish and physical disorders....currently, Pakistan has become a lawless, foodless and needless state where 80% population has become hostage of these army rulers, who are ruling them on gun points. Their poverty stricken lives have become miserable than prisoners of wars.........

Now, this crisis of flour is an open proof of the kind of agony Poor Pakistanis are passing through.
When I see millions of poor Pakistanis standing in lines, fighting and arguing just for ,"ATTA(FLOUR)"...It hurts my heart and soul deep inside, when I see old worn-out ladies with broken legs(fractured) crying and begging for flour and being stepped over by other poverty stricken countrymen.....I feel agony, helplessness and then I start crying and my endless tears don't stop , they won't stop b/c I am devastated and so do my fellow countrymen, they're so badly devastated by these tragedies that my nation"s sufferings have reached unprecedented heights. It's so painful for me to be still alive and see all this with my own eyes................sigh*

I know a small progress could show us highly positive effects, but our rulers don't care for 80% of poor Pakistanis, they see them as blisters in their own land...............poverty, food insecurity and agricultural disparity have made Pakistan critically collapsed state..........I just feel bad, sad, hurt, agonized and helpless............sigh*
For the last couple of weeks, I can't eat....how can I eat ? when my own poor countrymen are living in dismal poverty....how can I sleep, when majority of my countrymen couldn't sleep b/c of basic food shortage and are unable to sleep with hungry and empty stomachs?

Dear writer
I wish to show you the real picture of unfortunate state, called Pakistan.

I strongly dismiss your article, you're completely wrong in your povs about Pakistan, it looks like you didn't do your homework prior to writting this twisted article with no sense , no sense at all.

I don't blame BB, NS, ZAB or any other politician for the collapse of Pakistan... Yes, I firmly believe and strongly blame Army for all the problems....Pakistanis never tasted democracy....always became hostage of cruel army....for 47 years....and yet, people have the nerves to blame BB or any other politician? Just read this....

The Pakistani nation is starving, Musharaf and his cruel army is thriving. flour crisis in Pakistan is worsening. People have to be in long lines to get one small bag of flour just for their basic needs. And the saddest thing is that 100% of Pakistani people use flour daily for their meals. It is the most essential commodity for rich and poor both. People can't survive without flour. Poor Pakistanis have been facing first sugar shortage, then gas shortage, electricity shortage and now extreme flour shortage.


So who are we blaming for all these crises of basic necessities?
Musharaf and his gang offcourse.................they have made it clear that they are the only humans in Pakistan who should their verocious needs met.......they are trying their best to discredit the basic right of poor Pakistani citizens by depriving them of food and then shelters.........they are trying their best to make sure that mushdog and his allies should govern starved nation boundlessly...when a governance fails to provide the basic needs to poor citizens then they have NO right, absolutely NO right to for the governance.........what sort of good governance is this? for God's sake, wake up.....wake up Pakistanis.

Musharaf and his allies wish every Poor Pakistani citizen to die of starvation now. First he murdered thousands of poor Pakistani citizens on streets like vegetables last year with no regrets, no regrets at all and now they have acquired a new tactics to kill more and more poors via starvation...............that is the most painful scene to see, fourteen crores of Pakistanis are suffering due to these power hungry monsters who are eradicating Pakis days in and days out.....and then filling up their big corrupt bellies by looting poor people's money to fill their unlimited needs...........

Musharaf and his bast**d allies are undermining , suppressing and oppressing the basic right of Pakistani citizens to put an end to democratic waves in Pakistan and they're not letting go of any golden opportunity to make hostage all those poor and innocent Pakistani citizens to meet their own vicious needs.........to make sure that their families are superior and they are not in those lines to beg for ,"FLOUR".....................

These monsters are living lavishly and for their lavish needs poor Pakistanis got to pay over the things that they don't even know what they did? Isn't it tragic? Isn't it sad enough to make us cry?
If NOT then we're not humans, we're worst than these blood sucker leaches and vultchers who call themselves Paki leaders.................rulers....

These harami rulers are sucking poor Pakis blood for their own extremely high expenditures and cause these inflations and recessions...........and then these harrammis borrow more and more money from central bank , much more than their budget..........now their banks are just empty cans with some echos of poverty, some poverty stricken screams and they're not listening b/c they don't want to listen to those tortured voices who are the reason that they are calling themselves ,"RULERS"....RULERS of those who are starving from hunger..........sigh*
This Pakistani turmoil is in it's height, and the greatest tragedy is that there seems to be no end to the sufferings of Poor Pakistani citizens................resulting in mental anguish and physical disorders....currently, Pakistan has become a lawless, foodless and needless state where 80% population has become hostage of these army rulers, who are ruling them on gun points. Their poverty stricken lives have become miserable than prisoners of wars.........

"HAMBURG: President Pervez Musharraf has said that he will resign if a majority of the Pakistani people no longer want him.

“Believe me, on the day when I arrive at the conviction that the majority of the people don’t want me any more, when I believe I can no longer make a contribution to my country, I will not hesitate a second. I will go,�(AP)

Pakistan Fraud and Flatulant Prince says -- that he will resign "when I arrive at the conviction" -- for a person who got selected in a referundum with the 99% majority vote -- current 23% approval rate is still not a minority eough.

In #84 read "At the heels of a contrived peace deal in which the Palestinians will be the losers will come the bombing of Iraq by the US under Israeli flags.

as

At the heels of a contrived peace deal in which the Palestinians will be the losers will come the bombing of Iran by the US under Israeli flags.

Benazir Bhutto is now buried in the white marble mausoleum in Larkhana. Does any one know how much EXACTLY it cost to build it? Who financed it?

Could it be in hundreds or millions of dollars? Are these figures available to the public in Pakistan?

Kamath

"Austrian Glock long range precision rifle "

is it a 2-stroke or 4 stroke Glock?

Re: # 87

arjun,

....... this man is drinking the cool aid from ksa - it is called aab-i-zamzam ..... let's not blame good old alcohol for these flights of fanatical fantasy .......

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Re: # 83

masadi,

........ how do you know all this ?....... were you hiding under mushy's bed when he was discussing all this with bush and zardari ? !!

......... now we have heard it all !

chowk staff: please do something ! ..... please ban masadi before somone falls off their chair and sues you for cyber negligence ! ....... think of the children ... please

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Regarding the Bush visit to the MidEast, it has more to do with Iran, that will be bombed shortly not by the US, under the Israeli flag, from bases within Pakistan. This tactic is for damage control, to minimize spillover and the current desire to get some "peace" in the Middle East is for the same purpose, to strengthen the Arab governments there for "damage control". At the heels of a contrived peace deal in which the Palestinians will be the losers will come the bombing of Iraq by the US under Israeli flags.

Regarding US involvement in the BB case, it is no stretch of the imagination to note that the US has always supported the military and the dictators it throws up in Pakistan. In fact so close is the relationship that Pakistan Army, totally alien to the Pakistanis, is a foreign occupation force doing the bidding of the US to the extreme deteriment of Pakistan. The the "deal" involving the dominant and lesser institutions, the military and the political would enhance the status quo (strengthen the dominant institution) and not "democracy" should be no surprise to any thinking person, that is why the US was pushing for the "deal", first and foremost to salvage the uniform and military from Musharraf, which was achieved after much bloodletting and lathi charge and emergency, and later to pave the way for a new military takeover to overcome the "love lost" of the earlier (1999) one. This second part of the deal was what the BB was beginning to understand and coming around, and so the "deal or no deal" was turning out to be a no-deal. That is why the US found it quite convenient, using the Pakistan Army (with whom it had a dual fulfillment of purpose in this) to get rid of the BB. A fake will was drawn, with full consultations with Zardari, in which he would be the default chair of the PPP, and the deal gone bad would then pursue smoothly. He also had a hand in this murder working with the Army/US. The party has been hijacked by a total outsider to the cause of the ZAB, and it was achieved quite painlessly by colluding in the killing of the BB by the US/Army/Zardari trio.

Regarding the BB assassination, let me repost from my ilog of Dec 27:

The American plan in Pakistan is moving smoothly, Iran is off guard because of the latest turnaround in the NIE, which was unprecidented, i.e. such a turnaround has never before happened in the history of issuing NIEs, according to CIA commentators.

In Pakistan, the plan was never for "democracy", it was to get Musharraf out of uniform, because the peon of old was becomming an "uppity nigger" (for those fools who want to red flag this comment read the context and the history of this term), i.e. too independant for his own good, so they woo'ed the BB and gave her assurances. Based on the assurances of the Shaitan, and not any "faith in Allah" or bravery, she returned home, evoking Musharraf to do what he did to save his uniform. Apparently the pressure from the Americans forced him to give that up.

Like I have maintained, this "democracy" slogan by the Americans who work via the Pakistan Army to subvert any and every remnant of democracy in Pakistan as well as destroy democratic institutions was at best for a stop-gap arrangement until their new peon brings in martial law again, at the heels of the Iran campaign. Musharraf could not be overthrown by the military when he was in uniform because it would fragment the military, i.e. harm the US occupation force indigeneously staffed, and was too risky to attempt.

In that context, getting rid of the BB (using the Pak Army) has paved the way for a new martial law, in this new upcoming martial law, Musharraf (who today refused to take Bush's call but then relented)will be the casualty and not the beneficiary. However, the people in Pakistan have begun to understand the shenanigans of the military/US alliance and will not stand for a new martial law. Because of the unforseen consequences of US meddling in trying to oust Musharraf not for the sake of the people of Pakistan, whom he has harmed a great deal, but for their own perverse ends, a new spirit of resistance emerged within the people, which will only expand.

Now what can be the unforseen consequences of this US action in paving the way for martial law. Like I have said, the Americans have found dealings with the Pak Army leadership more tedious with every successive dictator, not because they don't submit but because due to the distance involved they develop a false notion of "soverignity, and independance and indispensibility" and then do things that might not please their masters, the US elite would describe that as the "uppity nigger syndrome", therefore they want to fragment Pakistan, like they plan to with Iraq, not for any resources but to establish their military footprint in this area. The military coup will be followed by a civil war, which will be followed by US occupation of the Frontier and Baluchistan. The positive coming out of this, and don't think I am being insensitive when I say it, is that the US/Army/BB alliance was destroying the only true people's movement in this country started by the ZAB, as a result of this that movement might be saved from destruction and might play a prominent role in the lives of the people of Pakistan or mini Pakistan in the future....And that is all I have to say

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Re: # 78

zeemax,

.... do you think it was the same man who did 9/11 and 7/7 ? ......... and who killed that horse in lahore ?...... do you think the french did it to spite the british ? .... and what about sheik rashid - he doesn't live far from where bb was killed ? .......... you know that she spurned him many years ago ? ......... and what about safdar the halwai who has a shop just across the street? ...... rumor has it that his sister's brother-in-law is a havaldar in the isi ........

Re: # 78

A little bird tells me that the assassin was a burly Punjabi sent by the Sharif's and blown to pieces cause they did not have time to arrange for Saudi visa.

Actually, I have reason to suspect the dandy assassin shooter was MQM recruited for the job .... but he got blown to bits just for providing a cue.

khurram,

There was one shot by the shooter (in the black suit and sunglasses), then a pause, then three shots in rapid succession. After the first shot, the sniper homed in. The first shot and the pause was the cue.

But, the brilliance was in the 'kafan posh' behind the dandy assassin. He didn't know he was there.

That's what makes it a very complicated hit. Perfectly executed. No one will know who did it.

Re: # 74

Aap Mahaan hein...product diversification and no dieting...awesome...

Re: # 74 what about your bedtime? Or is it ovaltine/Hor_licks time 8-()

#73 Posted by rf786,

Now, there is one for every mealtime.

Re: # 69

{I haven't beaten any wife so far, and there have been three.}

THREE.....YA DA MAAN....Salam hai aapke azmat per. Have been or still holding on to all three positions?

Writer of this article demonstrates classic gora mentality with Indian infatuation thus everything Pakistan represents has to be bad.

{The building is a giddy pseudo-Mexican ranch house with white walls and a red tile roof. There is nothing remotely Islamic about the building}

Has the writer ever gone too Saudi Arabia or any other Gulf Arab state? Seems not, but this again shows the writers hidden biases.

{She spoke English fluently because it was her first language. She had an English governess, went to a convent run by Irish nuns, and rounded off her education with degrees from Harvard and Oxford.}

So a desi had it better than this moron.

{It was difficult to image any of her neighbouring heads of state- even India’s earnest Sikh economist, Manmohan Singh, talking like this.}

According to the writer poor Indians do not get to eat or like Baskin and Robbins. What a moronic interpretation.

{However the very reasons that make the West love Benazir Bhutto are the same that leave many Pakistanis with second thoughts. Her English may be fluent, but you can't say the same about her Urdu which she spoke like a well-groomed foreigner: fluently but ungrammatically. Her Sindhi was even worse: apart from a few imperatives, she is completely at sea.}

And Sonia Gandhi is fluent in Hindi? If the voter does not give a damn, then there is nothing wrong. What is wrong is painting people in a multi-ethnic state with languages.

{The whole painted vision reminded me of one of those aristocratic Roman princesses in Caligula.}

Caligula? Not only is this guy a bigot but also a shameless pervert.

Benazir was not perfect, made her share of mistakes but she was after all the elected representative of pakistan and headed probably the single largest political entity. She belonged to the feudal class not by choice but by birth and that the writer and many other critics cannot comprehend that these feudals have the same right as any other person to contest elections.It is for the people to decide, not some shallow, bigoted, sorry excuse of a writer.

Finally, the writer is riding the same populist propaganda that the Jihadist are coming the Jihadist are coming. Yes, Pakistan faces serious concerns and its leaders have failed to deliver even the basic necessities, yes the rightest have become stronger but they will not be the victors. The victors will be the nationalists. What the writer has completely failed to understand is the fractured ethnicity of Pakistan that has been compounded by BB assassination. Today, the smaller provinces have become ever so more sensitive of their future. Then again, the stupid moron would not know this for his interpertations are based on his drawing room chit chats with his elitist contacts.

But the bomber yes ... Many people say 'He was wearing a white scarf around his head'.

Abey chutyo .... that was a 'Kafan' he was wearing around his head. Sar par Kafan. Got it?

#67 Posted by hamidm2,

I told you my friend, in post #1.

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Re: # 63

zeemax,

........ if you know who did it, why don't you tell the rest of us ...... i think you are on a slippery slope to join hamid gul and other crazies ...... holy mother of mo ! what the hell is wrong with you guys !

Guys, all this whodunnit speculation re Ben' Bhu's demise makes you all sound delusional. Who cares? She's dead. I don't care if there were gunmen behind the grassy knoll or if there was a silver bullet fired by Oswald, the fact remains that Ben' Bhu' was no Kennedy (and no Mother Teresa either) and she has now left the building. RIP.

Re: # 40

zeemax,

"Only when US is destroyed will we achieve independence.

I'm convinced of this now. And it's easy to do it. "

......... spoken like a true jihadi - a man who beats his wife and kicks his dog ..... mian ji, get some viagra and stop blaming it on her and the poor dumb beast .......

Bill (Mr Dalrymple):

I think the disconnect between the late Ben' Bhu's rhetoric and her actions wasn't as wide as her late father's. As I recall, Zulficker Ali Bhutto nationalized other people's money and property but never gave up his vast estates or his business interests.

Ejaz

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Re: #56, zeemax,

What about the flapping of her scarf, visible in the video, indicating getting shot from the left?

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Have to go. Khuda Hafiz.

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#56 zeemax: forensic reports (properly done) bring out reality. What seems obvious turns out to be not true. That is why it is so important to have a proper investigation - particularly if the government has one of the snipers (per the Naiton report below) in its custody and is not telling!!

#53 zeemax: i saw the laathis lying scattered in pools of blood. i also saw the picture of the lawyers standing together in prayer for the same policemen who had been standing with these laathis ready to beat them. Those policemen who died were our brothers too.

#50 Posted by tahmed32,

Yaar forget about these forensic reports.

There were four shots, from a single pistol. All missed her head and two went into her bulletproof vest. Two went astray. Okay?

At the same time there was a sniper fire, just one shot, which hit her above the right ear.

In 15 seconds there was the bomb. To destroy the evidence.

That's all.

#48 Dash Dot: No man is a saint. However, at times when the nation's future is at stake, throughout history men have risen beyond themselves and done truly brave and noble actions.
So - regardless of what the CJ did or didnt do in the past, regardless of what BB did or didnt do, regardless of what NS did or didnt do, regardless of what Asma Jehangir, Imran Khan, Hussain Ahmed (the list goes on) did in the past - the fact is that in falling behind the CJ in calling for the rule of law and respect for the constitution and for the basic rights of all in Pakistan - each one of these indivdiuals (and the thousands of other courageous Pakistanis) have earned a place of honor in Pakistan's history.

It only confirms the the whole story is not knownn. And that the govt has leads which it is investigating.

Trust friend, trust the govt up to a point. It also wants to know the story.

The story of the Bibi death (assassination, murder, or accident) is not fully known nor is it uncovered. (I have to query though as to why AN AUTOPSY WAS NEVER CONDUCTED? For a great person like Bibi to die in such unnatural circumstances would require, nay needs a thorough investigation.

#42 Posted by tahmed32,

Did you see the Laathis scattered around drenched in blood and the tear gas shells going off within the boxes over the dead of their owners, who would have fired them on the innocents.

These same Laathis were raining on your Lawyers' heads just a few weeks ago.

You should be grateful.

As I said on my gallery photo, the only innocent in the Lahore bombing was the horse of a tonga which happened to be there.

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Re: # 49 WHy not wait for the next elections and ensure that he does not win the game. Then pension the guy off. that is much better than the blood-curdling thought in #49.

You have to stop somewhere....Blood which is shed is the greatest and most toxic of poisons ever known. It consumes everything it touches and flows over. Why wish for it?

Zeemax you sure do know how to go OTT........

what do you make of this, nasah/dash/zeemax? Seems like not only were there two gunmen - the police official seems to have accidentally revealed that one of them is in the custody of police!! If true - musharraf government's attempt to hide this fact changes the assassination picture entirely.

Lab confirms 3 shots fired from 2 pistols

ASIF CHAUDHRY (in the Nation)

LAHORE -The Forensic Science Laboratory, Lahore, in its report has confirmed that three bullets were fired from two pistols allegedly used in the assassination of PPP chairperson Benazir Bhutto on December 27...Lab confirms 3 shots fired from 2 pistols

ASIF CHAUDHRY
LAHORE -The Forensic Science Laboratory, Lahore, in its report has confirmed that three bullets were fired from two pistols allegedly used in the assassination of PPP chairperson Benazir Bhutto on December 27.
According to the report, one shot was fired from one pistol and two from the second. The forensic experts also found multiple impressions of finger prints on the two pistols, but recorded in their findings that they were not recognizable due to inadequate handling of the two weapons by the police officials concerned.
Two pistols and three empty shells were sent by the DPO Rawalpindi to the Forensic Science Laboratory for examination. The sources revealed that a senior official of lab briefed the Scotland Yard team about its report at the Chief Minister’s House on Friday. The Scotland Yard team, which was scheduled to visit the Forensic Science Laboratory on Thursday, again cancelled its visit on Friday due to security concerns and got briefing at the CM’s House.
A senior forensic expert told The Nation that the Rawalpindi police officials informed its department that a pistol was recovered from the blast site soon after the bomb-cum-gun attack while another was taken from the possession of a suspected person from the spot. The suspected person was immediately taken to an unknown place by the law-enforcement agencies for interrogation.


http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/jan-2008/12/index7.php

#42 Posted by tahmed32,

zeemax: the reality is that the Musharraf has to go.

Agreed. And yes he will go. Perhaps in parts wrapped in a shopping bag.

But who will kick him out? Is it your types or the bombers?

Re: # 42 CJ is the representative of the Feudal-Military Complex and as such he does what they say - this isthe guy who kept his mouth shut when Nawaz's goons ran amok and ransacked the same SC you are talking about in awe.

This SC will not save your backside if you are not a part of the Feudal-Military-Elite Complex. Forget it. Musharuff is the only guy who can save the fat from frying up every one....

#44 Posted by Dash_Dot,

US is killing a lot of Muslims.

DashDot: fair enough. i am not sure what bilawal's body language conveyed - but rather than watch the video i will settle for your interpretation. as far as i am concerned, bilawal should follow his cousin fatima's lead - and call for inner party democracy in the PPP. Then he would be doing a true service to his family and to the nation.

"Shukre ada kar rab ka bhaiee
jis nay musharraf gai banaiee"

Re: # 40 zeemax such wet dreams only lead to more trouble and the creation of more rubble.

Be realistic, man. This is not in the interests of Pakistan. The US is the most benevolent of super-powers the world and man-kind has seen since civilisation started. You are barking up the wrong tree here friend.

Re: # 37 Tahmed32, Musharuff is the only one who has safeguarded the interests of Pakistan - the only leader in the last 60 years who has ensured that Paksitan moves forward. All the others sold it down the drain.

Musharuff has the INTERESTS of Pakistan and the common man - not those of the Feudal-Military complex at heart. For him the common man is the real Pakistan adn not the great unwashed (as the Elite consider them to be).

All the actions he has taken is mainly to safe guard the sovereignty of Paksitan. Any other decision, the outcome would have been far different, and we would not be talking about Pakistan like we do now, but perhaps in the same breath as Iraq!

#38 zeemax: the reality is that the Musharraf has to go. and the reality is that in recognizing the significance of the CJ's stand on the rule of law Pakistanis have proved themselves to be a force to be reckoned with. the reality is, that because of sacrifices made by hundreds of martyred Pakistanis and by thousands of other courageous people - Bush has been left with no choice but to follow the direction set by these Pakistanis and call for free and fair elections.

Musharraf was weak despite his uniform because he had no legitimacy. The Pakistani nation is strong because it has shown "fired the shot heard round the world". That is reality.

No Tahmed32, that is not the case - for the great common people of the coutry are the real people. from a purely Elitist Point of view, those who are not a part of the group are that. It was a tongue in cheek comment.....And given the recent press conference of Billawal in Oxford, I am sure that poor guy thinks the same.......just read the transcripts, better still if you can get the whole tape (which I am sure you can get from your men in DC) see his body language.

#32 Posted by tahmed32,

Only when US is destroyed will we achieve independence.

I'm convinced of this now. And it's easy to do it.

I read this article with great interest until it mentions the “Mexican style ranch�.

#32 Posted by tahmed32,

So, please tell me the reality my friend. Is it CJ Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry?

Is that it?

Let's suppose he's restored yet again ... (he was restored also on 20th July 2007). will that solve your problems?

#35 forget zeemax. How can you support musharraf even after he has demonstrated that he is in it only for his own self and ego. and gotten hundreds of people killed in the process!!

#34 Dash_Dot: Calling Pakistanis names ("unwashed cattle") demonstrates your attempts to cover up the hollowness of what you write by making this miserable attempt at making yourself appear superior.

Re: # 32

Tahmed32, how dare you sir (finger wagging icon here). How dare you accuse Zeemax the great, the brave, the Most Pious of blasphemy....

Finally an article which tells it as it is!

BUt here is the rub, the only guy who can break this hold the Military-Feudal Complex have over Pakistan is Musharuff. he is an outsider, and indeed has a much greater interest (emotional and intellectual) in ensuring that Pakistan succeeds.

Musharuff is the best that could have happened to Pakistan - he is the first DICTATOR of Pakistan who can seems to be holding the line, the longer he stays the better it is for the pakistan - feudal, military and the rest of the great unwashed cattle.

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#21 zeemax: so you too believe in the theory that the US is Allah without whose permission not a bird can fly and not a bird can die in Pakistan??!! I see I am in the company of Intellectual Giants who can see things beyond mere reality!! :-)

#30 janoo: BB was no doubt feudal. She may have been courageous to the point of foolhardiness, but she was no fool. As for being corrupt - this has been a label that Musharraf has used the past decade to justify his illegal rule. The fact is - that if BB was was corrupt - she could have spent a life of ease and leasure in the west. Instead, she chose to return to Pakistan and take risks.

It is time to wake up and see the truly corrupt and criminal individual in Pakistan: namely Musharraf - and military rulers before him - who have committed the ultimate form of corruption by abusing his powers to commit the ultimate crime to destroy the Pakistan Constitution. And thus brought virtual civil war in Pakistan, and killed hundreds of Pakistanis in the process.

Finally an article which talks about the real BB, the corrupt, the feudal and the foolish woman who almost single handedly destroyed Pakistan in her two stints as the prime minister.It would be poetic justice if it's the Taliban who killed her. However, Musharraf and ISI or agencies may not be far from the finger that pulled the trigger that finally killed her.Inna lillahe wa inna ilaihe rajeoon.

#28 Posted by hamidm2,

You haven't answered my questions in #13 and #10.

zeemax,

.... you don't want to be on the same side as hamid gul ....... the guy is a megalomaniac and should be locked up in a mental asylum or guantanmo - whichever is closer ........ haven't you noticed his resemblance to saddam hussain, specilly the wild eyes ?

...... anyway, i know there are a lot of pakis who believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories.... there are also a lot of men who beat up their wives and kick their dog because they suffer from ed ...........

#26 Posted by mohar1l,

And which victory is that? If you mean the Benazir assassination, Islamists didn't do it.

Re: # 23 zee

Forget hinuds... the question is - why don't you own up your major victory?

Re: # 21

Really?... I thought the "geo-strategic" location was pakiland's biggest asset... you are supposed to control everybody around your fingers - US, china, russia with access to your "warm" waters :)

.... #22 Posted by zeemax ... correction.

Bill O' Reilly.

How could I ever confuse that a'hole's last name with the great Timothy O' Leary.

#19 Posted by mohar1l,

Hinuds are bit players. They're not a 'Nation'.

They can be content with the crumbs of code cooleying and jockeying donkeys in a race with thoroughbreds as long as it lasts.

#16 Posted by hamidm2,

To you, anyone who tells the truth which is contrary to Bill O' Leary is a madman.

But Hamid Gul is not the only one. I am too. And I have no idea how many others.

#15 Posted by tahmed32,

Unfortunately, that is true.

As Ambassador Tariq Fatemi had put it, "Pakistan's geo-strategic position is a yoke around it's neck".

Re: # 12 nasah
[...white trash...]

that's not very nice, old dude... racist rant from you nasah?... I thought butter doesn't melt in your mouth... so much rage in support of the jihad princess... wow...

don't shoot the messenger dude, face the truth...

zee

Why would US kill BB - makes no sense...

We horrible hinuds have had reasons kill her in past... but not now... now she is the born-again "liberal"... not the jihad princess no more... any case - we are too forgetful to hold the grudge- look at nasah, he practically drooling after the dead lady...

That leaves pakis from the establishment or pakis of your kind, islamic kind... most of the times it's one and the same...

Admit it dude, this was a major victory for yout camp...

Bush did not Busharraf did.

hamidm #16 hamid gul belongs in Attock fort, not guantanamo. Along with mush as cell-mate. He messed up Pakistan, not the US.

Re: # 10

zeemax,

.... i believe farhatullah babar, but even if bb tried to contact the two criminals, so what? ...... as for aq khan, he is a common thief and a traitor and the pakistan government should have put him on trial for treason and hung him ........ hamid gul belongs in guantanamo - the man is a walking time bomb ......

....... now stop acting like a mad man ........

zeemax #1 as i recall, a few short weeks ago, prior to her death, it was the US supporting her. Now that she has been killed, it is the US that did it.

Thus: In the eyes of many in Pakistan, not a bird can sing and not a bird can drop dead without the US being behind it. So, in the minds of these individuals, the US is clearly no other than Allah Himself. Some would call them such thinking stupid. Others too would call it stupid. All except these individuals themselves who think they are potential Nobel laureates.

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And hamidm2,

While you're pondering over my earlier questions, you might like to to tell me how either the shrapnel or the gunshots hit her (or she ducked down and hit the lever which is now mute after the footage) when both these bomber/shooter were on her left when she got hit on her right temple.

Think, before you respond.

If you carry on in your usual manner, I will need to resort to my usual 'ice cream' stories as well.

finally the real stuff to read -- the ultimate the inevitable white trash of the South East Asian pimpled 'expertise' by Dalrymple the Dictator's Dimple from Delhi.

It had to be spread on Chowk once again -- because for journalistic authenticity one needs to wallow in the real crap -- not in the undigested vomits of the Indian and Pakistani coolie apologistas of an enlightened dictatorship in Islamabad.

Pakistan's Flawed and Feudal Princess killed on her own volition by Pakistan's Nattering Nazi Prince.

... of-course #1 is not my opinion. It was published in The News, as well as Dawn, and the entire Urdu press.

#5 Posted by hamidm2,

Just answer the facts revealed in #1.

Why did she send messages to Hamid Gul as well as AQ Khan?

Unless you believe Farhatullah Babar's denial of-course.

Re: # 7

arjun,

.......... are you sure that you horrible hindoos didn't do it ?

"Immediately on receipt of the news about the Lahore blast, the TV channels began discussing it. But, by and large, all discussions concentrated on two possible suspects: the United States and the “establishment� working for President Musharraf. No one named Al Qaeda and used bland ambiguity when generally referring to “certain quarters� determined to destabilise and destroy Pakistan. Reference was made to the “big power� which had “arrived in the neighbourhood� and wanted excuses to attack Pakistan to destroy its nuclear assets. There was also veiled reference to “the old enemy next door� who was said to remain set on the goal of annihilating Pakistan. No one mentioned Al Qaeda despite the fact that it too had “arrived� in the neighbourhood and had made its intentions clear about what it would do in Pakistan."

........ the problem with us fuukin pakis is that we are quick to come up with all kinds of conspiracy theories instead of admitting that we might be wet because we simply peed in our pants ..... the reason nobody blames al-qaed is because it is an arabic word and has al-lah's first name attached to it ......

“She spoke English fluently because it was her first language. She had an English governess, went to a convent run by Irish nuns, and rounded off her education with degrees from Harvard and Oxford�.
I read, write and speak English fluently, was taught by the same Presentation Nuns in school (the school fee even now is a miserly Rs. 1,000/. Then it was Rs.15 and she was the Foreign Minister’s daughter. About 50% students there are subsidised). I also had a stint at Cambridge and belong to a middle class family. Where does that analogy place people like us. Mr. William Dalrymple, this is an insult.

“It was difficult to image any of her neighbouring heads of state- even India’s earnest Sikh economist, Manmohan Singh, talking like this.�
Unlike Singh, she was a young girl still in mid thirtees. Barely in twenties, she survived about eight years in jail, the major part spent in Sukkur, where the temperature in summers touches 50. She often talked like a youngster. I remember when she visited the convent as PM in 1995, she asked for the IMLI from the canteen, Little did she realise that the new generation had moved away from imli to fries and burgers.

“Benazir Bhutto was a courageous, secular, and liberal woman.�
Benazir was a brave women. She was never secular in the western sense. Yes she was very tolerant of other religions, if that is what William Dalrymple means. She was religious, offered prayers five times a day and often meditated in Tahajad. The Benazir of 2007 was a very changed lady.

“But sadness at the demise of this courageous fighter should not mask the fact that as a pro-Western feudal who did little for the poor, she was as much a central part of Pakistan’s problems, as the solution to them.�
Yes from the western perspective, she was indeed part of Pakistan’s problems for the undermentioned reasons.

1. Her father alongwith King Faisal were responsible for the oil embargo of 1973 as a result of which the Gold-Dollar Equation and Americain financial system of post WWII nearly collapsed.

2. Her Father initiated the Nuclar Program.

3. Her father between 1975-77 fostered Ahmad Shah Masood, Hikmatyar, Younis Khalis and Rabbani against the regime of Sardar Daud, who had adopted a very aggressive posture towards Pakistan. These men played the major role in the Afghan War.

4. Benazir accelerated Pakistan’s nuclear program in both her stints as PM.

5. She gave Pakistan the Missile Development Program.

6. The Taliban respected her and still respect her because of her father and Naseer Ullah Babar. Though she did not create them, they listened to her. She never made them the monsters they became. Someone else did.

7. Indeed, if she did establish contact with A Q Khan, she did the right thing.

8. She was killed for verses that sounded bad in the western perspective.

She was a woman with balls of Tungstun Carbide in a man's world

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As one commentator puts it,

Quote

All ’sins’, past ‘deeds’, ‘deals’ and ‘weaknesses’ are washed away, and she will be remembered by majority as a symbol for resistance, democracy and a champion of human rights.

Unquote

That is, it seems, the ground reality.

The author, however, must be extended credit for assessing the legancy in a rather 'realistic' manner and has most certainly managed to break off from the general trend of 'blindly praising' Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto (Shaheed)even in areas where we all knew better.

Re: # 1

zeemax,

........ since you are on a roll, do you think the americans were behid the assasination of hassan and hussain ? ......... was yazid on the cia payroll ?..... and what about jinnah's death - i heard he was poisoned ? ..... and where the heck are my car keys ? ...... i think you and masadi should get together and compare notes .......

Would appreciate HP's comments on #1 as well since it seems to confirm his thesis at-least to the extent on US involvement in everything which goes on in Pakistan.

Thanks.

excellent article!!

Author,

When I interviewed Abdul Rashid Ghazi in the Islamabad Red Mosque shortly before his death in the storming of the complex in early July, he returned over and again to these central issues of social justice: “We want our rulers to be honest people,� he repeated. “But now the rulers are living a life of luxury while thousands of innocent children have empty stomachs and can’t even get basic necessities.�

This is the reason for the rise of the Islamists in Pakistan, and why so many people support them: they are the only force capable of taking on the country’s landowners and their military cousins.

Thank you for mentioning that great man, Abdul Rashid Ghazi. But a major correction is needed here. He wasn't democratic, because he knew democracy does not deliver social justice, and the increase of votes of the politico-Islamists in 2002 had nothing to do with social justice but everything to do with the Afghan invasion and anti-Americanism. This time around, the votes of the politico-Islamists will be much less - not more - because they have been discredited as collaborators.

What Abdul Rashid Ghazi was talking about was revolution, and that is what is inevitable after storming of Lal Masjid just as he had foretold in his last few media appearances under siege.

But it is is true this is the only force capable of taking on the firmly entrenched 'establishment', on the latter's own terms, which is 'violence', not 'votes'.

(.... nowhere hinted above they had anything to do with Benazir's assassination as she herself said many times it was not going to be them who will kill her, plus my previous post below)

Urstruly/Masadi may find this of interest:

US rejects conspiracy theories amid new revelations

ISLAMABAD: The US embassy in Islamabad has termed the reports connecting Washington to an international conspiracy behind Benazir Bhutto’s assassination “completely outrageous and unfounded� amid fresh revelations that the slain leader had established indirect contacts with Dr AQ Khan and Lt-Gen (retd) Hamid Gul shortly before her death.

US embassy spokesperson Elizabeth Colton, in response to written questions sent by The News on Wednesday, described the assassination as a tragedy for Pakistan and the whole world and said, “The suggestion of US involvement is completely outrageous and unfounded.�

Ms Colton was asked to comment on the growing perception in Pakistan that Ms Bhutto’s killing was part of an international conspiracy to which the US was said to be a leading part with the grand design of destabilising and denuclearising Pakistan.

When asked if Washington had “pressurised� Ms Bhutto to strike a deal with President Musharraf, a fact that has been confirmed by sources in her Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) and also a top presidential aide, Colton said, “Our consistent interest is to see Pakistan succeed as a moderate, democratic country, led by the choice of the Pakistani people. We do not endorse particular candidates or parties. We are ready to work with whomever the Pakistani people choose to lead them.�

When her comments were sought on repeated statements of US presidential candidates raising undue apprehensions about the nuclear programme of Pakistan, she said, “Presidential candidates present a variety of opinions during the campaign seasons, but they are only that — opinions of individuals.�

When asked if the US State Department officials had asked Ms Bhutto not to talk about the restoration of the deposed judges as mentioned by some columnists here, who quoted Ms Bhutto of admitting this fact before her death, Colton said, “The status of the judges is an internal matter for Pakistan to decide. We have repeatedly urged the Government of Pakistan to protect the independence of the judiciary and freedom of the media.�

While the US embassy completely distanced itself from the growing perception in Pakistan that Islamabad was facing a serious international conspiracy to denuclearise Pakistan, a source having close relations with the slain chairperson of the PPP told this correspondent that Ms Bhutto had been punished for changing the script of the international conspirators as she wanted to save Pakistan from any damage.

The source, while referring to his meeting with Benazir shortly before her death, revealed that after her return to Pakistan ending her nine-year exile she had changed her policy and started distancing herself from what some leading world capitals wanted her to pursue.

Not only that she had developed indirect contacts with the likes of Baitullah Mehsud in South Waziristan as reported already to pursue a peaceful negotiated settlement of extremism instead of using force or letting any foreign country intervene, and also sent separate messages to both Dr AQ Khan and Hamid Gul.

The source also shared the names of two of the messengers but requested not to make these public. He said Gul, who was one of the four persons nominated by Ms Bhutto in her October 2007 letter sent to the president in case she was killed, was conveyed that Ms Bhutto was under pressure to include the former ISI chief’s name in the list.

Similarly, Dr AQ Khan, the source claimed, was conveyed to forget about her earlier statement that when in power she would give the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) access to the father of Pakistan’s nuclear bomb, who is under house arrest for more than four years.

Although, Dr AQ Khan or any of his immediate relation was not accessible to media persons to confirm such an indirect contact, the source said Benazir got back a message from the scientist, who was quoted to have said, “I consider you more than a daughter.�

Gul confirmed that he received Benazir’s message from two different sources associated with the PPP. He said he was told that Benazir did not want to include his name in the list of four, who were after her life.

The last message that he received, Gul disclosed, was delivered to him on December 24, three days before the assassination of Ms Bhutto. “The messenger told me that Benazir stated that Gen Sahib (Gul) would know what pressures she was referring to,� Gul said.

He said according to his information, Ms Bhutto had changed the script of the influential world capitals and for this very crime, she was assassinated. The former ISI chief, while offering himself for testimony before an independent commission comprising respected retired Supreme Court judges, said he had the conviction that Ms Bhutto was made a scapegoat by the international players conspiring against Pakistan.

Saying that Benazir’s killing was done in an extremely sophisticated and professional manner, he stated that to his reckoning it was a Mossad operation. He said knowing well that a popular leader like Ms Bhutto could not get along with Musharraf in the government, the international powers pressurised both sides to strike a deal. “It was nothing less than a dream theme but still done to assassinate Ms Bhutto to cause destabilisation in Pakistan.�

Referring to the statements of the US presidential candidates and the latest utterance of ElBaradei, the IAEA chief, Gul said all this was being done under the greater design against Pakistan’s nuclear programme.

PPP spokesman Farhatullah Babar, when approached, denied that Ms Bhutto had made any recent contact with Gul, adding that once Gul contacted her but she did not talk to him. He said to his knowledge, there was also no such contact made with Dr AQ Khan but he promised that he would get back to The News after ascertaining this fact from the quarters concerned.

(http://www.thenews.com.pk/print3.asp?id=12222)